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      aya-chan
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      Kaname Sin

      Post by aya-chan on Sun Dec 25, 2011 8:12 pm

      This subject was discussed on another thread http://vampireknight.all-up.com/t1079p40-vampire-knight-chapter-78-full-raws-first-translation#24325 and decided to make a topic about this matter, and my reply is as respons to caela.

      Spoiler:
      caela wrote:About what Zero is accusing Kaname of: If Zero was just accusing Kaname of messing/causing the hunter's twin curse, which happened thousands of years ago, I doubt there would be this much anger.

      Also, I doubt a Chinese translator would confuse "blood-line," "clan" and "family". These are all separate Japanese Kanji/Chinese characters.

      Zero is blaming the deaths of his parents, Ichiru's death and the forced change of Zero's from human to vampire, on Kaname.

      ********************************

      Is the accusation possible? As far as I am concerned, Kaname is smart enough to fool Shizuka. Also The girl was stuck in a cage for who knows how long. Its not like Shizuka was privy to all the latest information like Sara was.

      All I know is that, the entire time I have been on all-up, I have always questioned even Rido's physical ability to change the list (his motive isn't that great either). Who ever changed the list is probably the enemy of the purebloods and Kaname, to me, is still a candidate. I suppose that means Sara is also a possibility. Rido was never written with enough brains to be a real possibility.

      ********************************

      About Zero trying to save Yuuki from Kaname: I meant it in a moral sense. Yuuki and Zero's dynamic has always been conditional (as opposed to Yume's unconditional dynamic): Yuuki protected Zero because of her sense of justice, and Zero protected Yuuki because of his respect of that sense of justice (yes, other reasons as well....but focusing on one reason for both for a reason).

      Yuuki claims to be willing to be "tainted" by Kaname. So far, that statement of hers has not really been tested. If Yuuki accepts Kaname now, without verifying Zero's accusations as either true or false, it looks like Zero is willing to cut ties with Yuuki.

      Why I dissagree with kaname being the culprit behind zero's tragedy:

      I. For Kaname to be the real culprit for zero's tragedy, means for him - kaname - to predict with a 100%accuracy the following events:
      >>>shizuka to have a lover
      >>>to put shizuka's lover on hunter list
      >>>gave this mission to zero's parents
      >>>and shizuka reacting this way:
      • kill zero parents

      • turn zero into a vampire

      • taking care of ichiru

      • ichiru returns and he's badly wounded by rido

      • zero devour his brother and he became the most powerful hunter


      And let's be serious, is impossible to predict those things. Shizuka was a vampire in grief, she could react in many ways, such as:
      >>>turning both children in vampires in front of their parents and let the parents alive
      >>>killing both children in front of their parents and let the parents alive
      *a parent biggest pain is to lose their children
      >>>Turning both children in vampires and then killing the parents
      >>>killing both children and then killing the parents
      >>>to kill the parents and zero and keep ichiru as a vampire or human

      But shizuka turned zero into a vampire in front of his parents and later she killed them, and keep ichiru on her side.

      For zero to be turned into a vampire and shizuka keeping ichiru and later zero to devour his brother was a must for zero to become the most powerful hunter.

      For me this seems to be a gamble, and kaname doesn't gamble.
      Moreover, for kaname to alter hunting list meant for him to have power in hunters association, which we knows he did not have nor in the present.
      But we knows who had: rido. rido was hand in hand with asato and the last one was an accomplice with the former hunter president.

      In the worse case, kaname released shizuka from the cage - maybe he pitied her because she grew up into a cage for her whole life, and she did nothing to deserve that.

      Info from official fanbook

      >>>The Hio family has a history of members going berserk, so she was brought up into a cage. she also lost the one she loved, so she grew to have a peculiar sense of life and death

      >>>She was locked and confinement right after she was born and given humans as food. She began to love a man, but he was executed by vampire hunters. She goes berserk and with rage and sorrow and attacks her enemy, kiryu family.


      But what happened with her lover has nothing to do with kaname, as well her reaction to her lover death.

      II. Shizuka came into cross academy to gain kaname's blood in order to have the power to kill rido, the real culprit. After shizuka regained her senses she made her own investigation and according to that the real culprit is rido.
      Facts sustained by:
      >>>kaname chapter 19

      We probably have the same objective in mind...shizuka - refference to rido - and continued in chapter 20

      I shall destroy what you truly hated...those who twisted our fate of the purebloods.

      >>>Maria chapter 26

      There was someone behind the scenes who used the kiryu's as pawns to hunt down shizuka's lover. Someone who wasn't happy that she was in love with a vampire who used to be a human. And when shizuka regained her senses, she realized who the real enemy was and tried to gain more power to destroy her enemy. who ever did those things to her is the real enemy...the enemy of the purebloods and of you.

      >>>Ichiru chapter 40

      I tried only to fulfill shizuka-sama wish...He was my only target...The one who imprisoned shizuka-sama and interffered with the execution list...Rido Kuran.

      All these quotes, as a whole show rido as the real culprit.

      Why Zero shouted with so much passion, remains for us to find out in the upcomings chapters, but one thing I am sure: kaname is not the real culprit behind zero's tragedy.

      In my opinion the sin of kaname is the twin curse - and this is the goal of this thread.

      I doubt the curse was put on hunters after HW death. Initially Kaname had wanted to sacrifice his life, and obviously he did not intend to cast a curse upon them, and I doubt he did it after her sacrifice.

      Something must be behind that.

      If hunters ate another female pureblood - kaname past wife - who probably was pregnant, it makes sense for kaname to curse them. Eating her, lifes got lost, and the perfect punishment for them was for pregnant hunter women to lose a child/children as well.
      A life for a life.

      According to twin curse when a mother is pregnant with twins is a misscarriage or stillbirth - both children will die or only one will survive. - zero and ichiru case was a rarity.
      Facts sustained by kaname chapter 37

      This is the first time I've seen a pair of hunter twins who both are alive. It's rare so I...In the hunter lineage when a mother is pregnant with twins there usually is a miscarriage or a stillbirth...

      The fetuses aren't selfaware yet. Manipulated by instinct the two will devour each other in the mother wombs just like vampires.

      Kaname: Occasionally a twin fetus will devour the entire life and powers of the twin in the womb and be born into this world as one of the strongest and most depraved hunters.









      Last edited by aya-chan on Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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      Bloodredhead
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      Re: Kaname Sin

      Post by Bloodredhead on Sun Dec 25, 2011 9:03 pm

      Firstly just wanted to say thank you aya-chan! cheers cheers now this is a topic to discuss. *running away from LT* give me theories any day!

      aya-chan wrote:This subject was discussed on another thread http://vampireknight.all-up.com/t1079p40-vampire-knight-chapter-78-full-raws-first-translation#24325 and decided to make a topic about this matter, and my reply is as respons to caela.

      Why I dissagree with kaname being the culprit behind zero's tragedy:

      I. For Kaname to be the real culprit for zero's tragedy, means for him - kaname - to predict with a 100%accuracy the following events:
      >>>shizuka to have a lover
      >>>to put shizuka's lover on hunter list
      >>>gave this mission to zero's parents
      >>>and shizuka reacting this way:
      • kill zero parents

      • turn zero into a vampire

      • taking care of ichiru

      • ichiru returns and he's badly wounded by rido

      • zero devour his brother and he became the most powerful hunter


      And let's be serious, is impossible to predict those things. Shizuka was a vampire in grief, she could react in many ways, such as:
      >>>turning both children in vampires in front of their parents and let the parents alive
      >>>killing both children in front of their parents and let the parents alive
      *a parent biggest pain is to lose their children
      >>>Turning both children in vampires and then killing the parents
      >>>killing both children and then killing the parents
      >>>to kill them all
      >>>to kill the parents and zero and keep ichiru as a vampire or human

      But shizuka turned zero into a vampire in front of his parents and later she killed them, and keep ichiru on her side.

      For zero to be turned into a vampire and shizuka keeping ichiru and later zero to devour his brother was a must for zero to become the most powerful hunter.

      For me this seems to be a gamble, and kaname doesn't gamble.
      Moreover, for kaname to alter hunting list meant for him to have power in hunters association, which we knows he did not have nor in the present.
      But we knows who had: rido. rido was hand in hand with asato and the last one was an accomplice with the former hunter president.

      Exactly. Kaname would have no idea how it would have all panned out. The situation was too uncontrolled really for what i believe Kaname likes. He likes his pieces where he wants them. He could have had no idea how shizuka would react in inacting her revenge. She could have done amny different things, its very impossible for him to have predicted the outsome. If he did the guys a genius but then shouldnt he have also predicted alot of other things that happened?

      In the worse case, kaname released shizuka from the cage - maybe he pitied her because she grew up into a cage for her whole life, and she did nothing to deserve that.

      I have actually wondered who let shizuka out, i dont think she escaped herself otherwise wouldnt she have done it long ago? We know kaname saw her when he was a child in her cage, at that age its easier to feel sorry and pity someone. Though it maybe one thing hino never answers but i hope she will.

      Info from official fanbook

      >>>The Hio family has a history of members going berserk, so she was brought up into a cage. she also lost the one she loved, so she grew to have a peculiar sense of life and death

      >>>She was locked and confinement right after she was born and given humans as food. She began to love a man, but he was executed by vampire hunters. She goes berserk and with rage and sorrow and attacks her enemy, kiryu family.


      But what happened with her lover has nothing to do with kaname, as well her reaction to her lover death.

      II. Shizuka came into cross academy to gain kaname's blood in order to have the power to kill rido, the real culprit. After shizuka regained her senses she made her own investigation and according to that the real culprit is rido.
      Facts sustained by:
      >>>kaname chapter 19

      We probably have the same objective in mind...shizuka - refference to rido - and continued in chapter 20

      I shall destroy what you truly hated...those who twisted our fate of the purebloods.

      >>>Maria chapter 26

      There was someone behind the scenes who used the kiryu's as pawns to hunt down shizuka's lover. Someone who wasn't happy that she was in love with a vampire who used to be a human. And when shizuka regained her senses, she realized who the real enemy was and tried to gain more power to destroy her enemy. who ever did those things to her is the real enemy...the enemy of the purebloods and of you.

      >>>Ichiru chapter 40

      I tried only to fulfill shizuka-sama wish...He was my only target...The one who imprisoned shizuka-sama and interffered with the execution list...Rido Kuran.

      All these quotes, as a whole show rido as the real culprit.

      cheers Exactly again aya-chan. All the evidence was on rido being the culprit behind shizuka's lovers death and putting the that person on the hunters list.

      Also the association presidnet was in league with astato and rido not kaname. kaname was the enemy to that group so why logically let your enemy change your list especially if changing it was in their favour? makes no sense really. scratch

      Why Zero shouted with so much passion, remains for us to find out in the upcomings chapters, but one thing I am sure: kaname is not the real culprit behind zero's tragedy.

      In my opinion the sin of kaname is the twin curse - and this is the goal of this thread.

      I doubt the curse was put on hunters after HW death. Initially Kaname had wanted to sacrifice his life, and obviously he did not intend to cast a curse upon them, and I doubt he did it after her sacrifice.

      Something must be behind that.

      If hunters ate another female pureblood - kaname past wife - who probably was pregnant, it makes sense for kaname to curse them. Eating her, lifes got lost, and the perfect punishment for them was for pregnant hunter women to lose a child/children as well.
      A life for a life.

      According to twin curse when a mother is pregnant with twins is a misscarriage or stillbirth - both children will die or only one will survive. - zero and ichiru case was a rarity.
      Facts sustained by kaname chapter 37

      This is the first time I've seen a pair of hunter twins who both are alive. It's rare so I...In the hunter lineage when a mother is pregnant with twins there usually is a miscarriage or a stillbirth...

      The fetuses aren't selfaware yet. Manipulated by instinct the two will devour each other in the mother wombs just like vampires.

      Kaname: Occasionally a twin fetus will devour the entire life and powers of the twin in the womb and be born into this world as one of the strongest and most depraved hunters.


      This right here, is exactly what i am thinking too. The emphasis has been on the twins curse recently and all the talk of kaname's past sin, i dont see it as conicidence more like they are intimatly linked together, also it brings in the element of the Kuran mother, who as of yet we have no idea about or clear reference. All we know is she had to exist for the Kuran line to exist today otherwise no Yuuki.

      For the curse to affect the hunters obviously it was placed to punish them for something they did or something they may have been accussed of in the past. When they took HW's blood they were cursed already to thirst blood just like vampires and were appointed a task they could not escape. This brings in then that another incident happened and what better then someone who has been shrouded in mystery til now, someone who was part of kaname's past we havent seen yet?
      avatar
      lililovelilica
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      Posts : 674
      Join date : 2011-11-02
      Location : Vk's World-Kaname's Heart
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      Re: Kaname Sin

      Post by lililovelilica on Mon Dec 26, 2011 12:45 am

      Nobody considered that kaname had nothing to do with what Sarah told Zero?
      i think Sarah's just lying again1 Cool
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      Maria Kuran
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      Re: Kaname Sin

      Post by Maria Kuran on Mon Dec 26, 2011 2:34 am

      Bloodredhead wrote:Firstly just wanted to say thank you aya-chan! cheers cheers now this is a topic to discuss. *running away from LT* give me theories any day!

      aya-chan wrote:This subject was discussed on another thread http://vampireknight.all-up.com/t1079p40-vampire-knight-chapter-78-full-raws-first-translation#24325 and decided to make a topic about this matter, and my reply is as respons to caela.

      Why I dissagree with kaname being the culprit behind zero's tragedy:

      I. For Kaname to be the real culprit for zero's tragedy, means for him - kaname - to predict with a 100%accuracy the following events:
      >>>shizuka to have a lover
      >>>to put shizuka's lover on hunter list
      >>>gave this mission to zero's parents
      >>>and shizuka reacting this way:
      • kill zero parents

      • turn zero into a vampire

      • taking care of ichiru

      • ichiru returns and he's badly wounded by rido

      • zero devour his brother and he became the most powerful hunter


      And let's be serious, is impossible to predict those things. Shizuka was a vampire in grief, she could react in many ways, such as:
      >>>turning both children in vampires in front of their parents and let the parents alive
      >>>killing both children in front of their parents and let the parents alive
      *a parent biggest pain is to lose their children
      >>>Turning both children in vampires and then killing the parents
      >>>killing both children and then killing the parents
      >>>to kill them all
      >>>to kill the parents and zero and keep ichiru as a vampire or human

      But shizuka turned zero into a vampire in front of his parents and later she killed them, and keep ichiru on her side.

      For zero to be turned into a vampire and shizuka keeping ichiru and later zero to devour his brother was a must for zero to become the most powerful hunter.

      For me this seems to be a gamble, and kaname doesn't gamble.
      Moreover, for kaname to alter hunting list meant for him to have power in hunters association, which we knows he did not have nor in the present.
      But we knows who had: rido. rido was hand in hand with asato and the last one was an accomplice with the former hunter president.

      Exactly. Kaname would have no idea how it would have all panned out. The situation was too uncontrolled really for what i believe Kaname likes. He likes his pieces where he wants them. He could have had no idea how shizuka would react in inacting her revenge. She could have done amny different things, its very impossible for him to have predicted the outsome. If he did the guys a genius but then shouldnt he have also predicted alot of other things that happened?

      In the worse case, kaname released shizuka from the cage - maybe he pitied her because she grew up into a cage for her whole life, and she did nothing to deserve that.

      I have actually wondered who let shizuka out, i dont think she escaped herself otherwise wouldnt she have done it long ago? We know kaname saw her when he was a child in her cage, at that age its easier to feel sorry and pity someone. Though it maybe one thing hino never answers but i hope she will.

      Info from official fanbook

      >>>The Hio family has a history of members going berserk, so she was brought up into a cage. she also lost the one she loved, so she grew to have a peculiar sense of life and death

      >>>She was locked and confinement right after she was born and given humans as food. She began to love a man, but he was executed by vampire hunters. She goes berserk and with rage and sorrow and attacks her enemy, kiryu family.


      But what happened with her lover has nothing to do with kaname, as well her reaction to her lover death.

      II. Shizuka came into cross academy to gain kaname's blood in order to have the power to kill rido, the real culprit. After shizuka regained her senses she made her own investigation and according to that the real culprit is rido.
      Facts sustained by:
      >>>kaname chapter 19

      We probably have the same objective in mind...shizuka - refference to rido - and continued in chapter 20

      I shall destroy what you truly hated...those who twisted our fate of the purebloods.

      >>>Maria chapter 26

      There was someone behind the scenes who used the kiryu's as pawns to hunt down shizuka's lover. Someone who wasn't happy that she was in love with a vampire who used to be a human. And when shizuka regained her senses, she realized who the real enemy was and tried to gain more power to destroy her enemy. who ever did those things to her is the real enemy...the enemy of the purebloods and of you.

      >>>Ichiru chapter 40

      I tried only to fulfill shizuka-sama wish...He was my only target...The one who imprisoned shizuka-sama and interffered with the execution list...Rido Kuran.

      All these quotes, as a whole show rido as the real culprit.

      cheers Exactly again aya-chan. All the evidence was on rido being the culprit behind shizuka's lovers death and putting the that person on the hunters list.

      Also the association presidnet was in league with astato and rido not kaname. kaname was the enemy to that group so why logically let your enemy change your list especially if changing it was in their favour? makes no sense really. scratch

      Why Zero shouted with so much passion, remains for us to find out in the upcomings chapters, but one thing I am sure: kaname is not the real culprit behind zero's tragedy.

      In my opinion the sin of kaname is the twin curse - and this is the goal of this thread.

      I doubt the curse was put on hunters after HW death. Initially Kaname had wanted to sacrifice his life, and obviously he did not intend to cast a curse upon them, and I doubt he did it after her sacrifice.

      Something must be behind that.

      If hunters ate another female pureblood - kaname past wife - who probably was pregnant, it makes sense for kaname to curse them. Eating her, lifes got lost, and the perfect punishment for them was for pregnant hunter women to lose a child/children as well.
      A life for a life.

      According to twin curse when a mother is pregnant with twins is a misscarriage or stillbirth - both children will die or only one will survive. - zero and ichiru case was a rarity.
      Facts sustained by kaname chapter 37

      This is the first time I've seen a pair of hunter twins who both are alive. It's rare so I...In the hunter lineage when a mother is pregnant with twins there usually is a miscarriage or a stillbirth...

      The fetuses aren't selfaware yet. Manipulated by instinct the two will devour each other in the mother wombs just like vampires.

      Kaname: Occasionally a twin fetus will devour the entire life and powers of the twin in the womb and be born into this world as one of the strongest and most depraved hunters.


      This right here, is exactly what i am thinking too. The emphasis has been on the twins curse recently and all the talk of kaname's past sin, i dont see it as conicidence more like they are intimatly linked together, also it brings in the element of the Kuran mother, who as of yet we have no idea about or clear reference. All we know is she had to exist for the Kuran line to exist today otherwise no Yuuki.

      For the curse to affect the hunters obviously it was placed to punish them for something they did or something they may have been accussed of in the past. When they took HW's blood they were cursed already to thirst blood just like vampires and were appointed a task they could not escape. This brings in then that another incident happened and what better then someone who has been shrouded in mystery til now, someone who was part of kaname's past we havent seen yet?


      kaname can see predictions of the future, so to speak, or does the ancestor kaname and since we are talking about the same, actually maybe it if was a prediction of what would happen and it did ... Here's the test, when he saw Yuki in his "predictions" and that's how a child he was arousing his ancestor kaname thoughts when he saw yuki's eyes and seeing them reminded once ...


      avatar
      lililovelilica
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      Posts : 674
      Join date : 2011-11-02
      Location : Vk's World-Kaname's Heart
      Humor : Waiting for Kaname
      Warning Zone

      Re: Kaname Sin

      Post by lililovelilica on Mon Dec 26, 2011 2:48 am

      Maria Kuran wrote:
      Bloodredhead wrote:Firstly just wanted to say thank you aya-chan! cheers cheers now this is a topic to discuss. *running away from LT* give me theories any day!

      aya-chan wrote:This subject was discussed on another thread http://vampireknight.all-up.com/t1079p40-vampire-knight-chapter-78-full-raws-first-translation#24325 and decided to make a topic about this matter, and my reply is as respons to caela.

      Why I dissagree with kaname being the culprit behind zero's tragedy:

      I. For Kaname to be the real culprit for zero's tragedy, means for him - kaname - to predict with a 100%accuracy the following events:
      >>>shizuka to have a lover
      >>>to put shizuka's lover on hunter list
      >>>gave this mission to zero's parents
      >>>and shizuka reacting this way:
      • kill zero parents

      • turn zero into a vampire

      • taking care of ichiru

      • ichiru returns and he's badly wounded by rido

      • zero devour his brother and he became the most powerful hunter


      And let's be serious, is impossible to predict those things. Shizuka was a vampire in grief, she could react in many ways, such as:
      >>>turning both children in vampires in front of their parents and let the parents alive
      >>>killing both children in front of their parents and let the parents alive
      *a parent biggest pain is to lose their children
      >>>Turning both children in vampires and then killing the parents
      >>>killing both children and then killing the parents
      >>>to kill them all
      >>>to kill the parents and zero and keep ichiru as a vampire or human

      But shizuka turned zero into a vampire in front of his parents and later she killed them, and keep ichiru on her side.

      For zero to be turned into a vampire and shizuka keeping ichiru and later zero to devour his brother was a must for zero to become the most powerful hunter.

      For me this seems to be a gamble, and kaname doesn't gamble.
      Moreover, for kaname to alter hunting list meant for him to have power in hunters association, which we knows he did not have nor in the present.
      But we knows who had: rido. rido was hand in hand with asato and the last one was an accomplice with the former hunter president.

      Exactly. Kaname would have no idea how it would have all panned out. The situation was too uncontrolled really for what i believe Kaname likes. He likes his pieces where he wants them. He could have had no idea how shizuka would react in inacting her revenge. She could have done amny different things, its very impossible for him to have predicted the outsome. If he did the guys a genius but then shouldnt he have also predicted alot of other things that happened?

      In the worse case, kaname released shizuka from the cage - maybe he pitied her because she grew up into a cage for her whole life, and she did nothing to deserve that.

      I have actually wondered who let shizuka out, i dont think she escaped herself otherwise wouldnt she have done it long ago? We know kaname saw her when he was a child in her cage, at that age its easier to feel sorry and pity someone. Though it maybe one thing hino never answers but i hope she will.

      Info from official fanbook

      >>>The Hio family has a history of members going berserk, so she was brought up into a cage. she also lost the one she loved, so she grew to have a peculiar sense of life and death

      >>>She was locked and confinement right after she was born and given humans as food. She began to love a man, but he was executed by vampire hunters. She goes berserk and with rage and sorrow and attacks her enemy, kiryu family.


      But what happened with her lover has nothing to do with kaname, as well her reaction to her lover death.

      II. Shizuka came into cross academy to gain kaname's blood in order to have the power to kill rido, the real culprit. After shizuka regained her senses she made her own investigation and according to that the real culprit is rido.
      Facts sustained by:
      >>>kaname chapter 19

      We probably have the same objective in mind...shizuka - refference to rido - and continued in chapter 20

      I shall destroy what you truly hated...those who twisted our fate of the purebloods.

      >>>Maria chapter 26

      There was someone behind the scenes who used the kiryu's as pawns to hunt down shizuka's lover. Someone who wasn't happy that she was in love with a vampire who used to be a human. And when shizuka regained her senses, she realized who the real enemy was and tried to gain more power to destroy her enemy. who ever did those things to her is the real enemy...the enemy of the purebloods and of you.

      >>>Ichiru chapter 40

      I tried only to fulfill shizuka-sama wish...He was my only target...The one who imprisoned shizuka-sama and interffered with the execution list...Rido Kuran.

      All these quotes, as a whole show rido as the real culprit.

      cheers Exactly again aya-chan. All the evidence was on rido being the culprit behind shizuka's lovers death and putting the that person on the hunters list.

      Also the association presidnet was in league with astato and rido not kaname. kaname was the enemy to that group so why logically let your enemy change your list especially if changing it was in their favour? makes no sense really. scratch

      Why Zero shouted with so much passion, remains for us to find out in the upcomings chapters, but one thing I am sure: kaname is not the real culprit behind zero's tragedy.

      In my opinion the sin of kaname is the twin curse - and this is the goal of this thread.

      I doubt the curse was put on hunters after HW death. Initially Kaname had wanted to sacrifice his life, and obviously he did not intend to cast a curse upon them, and I doubt he did it after her sacrifice.

      Something must be behind that.

      If hunters ate another female pureblood - kaname past wife - who probably was pregnant, it makes sense for kaname to curse them. Eating her, lifes got lost, and the perfect punishment for them was for pregnant hunter women to lose a child/children as well.
      A life for a life.

      According to twin curse when a mother is pregnant with twins is a misscarriage or stillbirth - both children will die or only one will survive. - zero and ichiru case was a rarity.
      Facts sustained by kaname chapter 37

      This is the first time I've seen a pair of hunter twins who both are alive. It's rare so I...In the hunter lineage when a mother is pregnant with twins there usually is a miscarriage or a stillbirth...

      The fetuses aren't selfaware yet. Manipulated by instinct the two will devour each other in the mother wombs just like vampires.

      Kaname: Occasionally a twin fetus will devour the entire life and powers of the twin in the womb and be born into this world as one of the strongest and most depraved hunters.


      This right here, is exactly what i am thinking too. The emphasis has been on the twins curse recently and all the talk of kaname's past sin, i dont see it as conicidence more like they are intimatly linked together, also it brings in the element of the Kuran mother, who as of yet we have no idea about or clear reference. All we know is she had to exist for the Kuran line to exist today otherwise no Yuuki.

      For the curse to affect the hunters obviously it was placed to punish them for something they did or something they may have been accussed of in the past. When they took HW's blood they were cursed already to thirst blood just like vampires and were appointed a task they could not escape. This brings in then that another incident happened and what better then someone who has been shrouded in mystery til now, someone who was part of kaname's past we havent seen yet?


      kaname can see predictions of the future, so to speak, or does the ancestor kaname and since we are talking about the same, actually maybe it if was a prediction of what would happen and it did ... Here's the test, when he saw Yuki in his "predictions" and that's how a child he was arousing his ancestor kaname thoughts when he saw yuki's eyes and seeing them reminded once ...


      Now that you showed these pictures i saw that Kaname said "usually" so that means that he saw yuuki more and more in the past? confused
      or am i interpreting it wrong? scratch
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      Re: Kaname Sin

      Post by Maria Kuran on Mon Dec 26, 2011 2:56 am

      lililovelilica wrote:
      Maria Kuran wrote:
      Bloodredhead wrote:Firstly just wanted to say thank you aya-chan! cheers cheers now this is a topic to discuss. *running away from LT* give me theories any day!



      Exactly. Kaname would have no idea how it would have all panned out. The situation was too uncontrolled really for what i believe Kaname likes. He likes his pieces where he wants them. He could have had no idea how shizuka would react in inacting her revenge. She could have done amny different things, its very impossible for him to have predicted the outsome. If he did the guys a genius but then shouldnt he have also predicted alot of other things that happened?



      I have actually wondered who let shizuka out, i dont think she escaped herself otherwise wouldnt she have done it long ago? We know kaname saw her when he was a child in her cage, at that age its easier to feel sorry and pity someone. Though it maybe one thing hino never answers but i hope she will.



      cheers Exactly again aya-chan. All the evidence was on rido being the culprit behind shizuka's lovers death and putting the that person on the hunters list.

      Also the association presidnet was in league with astato and rido not kaname. kaname was the enemy to that group so why logically let your enemy change your list especially if changing it was in their favour? makes no sense really. scratch



      This right here, is exactly what i am thinking too. The emphasis has been on the twins curse recently and all the talk of kaname's past sin, i dont see it as conicidence more like they are intimatly linked together, also it brings in the element of the Kuran mother, who as of yet we have no idea about or clear reference. All we know is she had to exist for the Kuran line to exist today otherwise no Yuuki.

      For the curse to affect the hunters obviously it was placed to punish them for something they did or something they may have been accussed of in the past. When they took HW's blood they were cursed already to thirst blood just like vampires and were appointed a task they could not escape. This brings in then that another incident happened and what better then someone who has been shrouded in mystery til now, someone who was part of kaname's past we havent seen yet?


      kaname can see predictions of the future, so to speak, or does the ancestor kaname and since we are talking about the same, actually maybe it if was a prediction of what would happen and it did ... Here's the test, when he saw Yuki in his "predictions" and that's how a child he was arousing his ancestor kaname thoughts when he saw yuki's eyes and seeing them reminded once ...


      Now that you showed these pictures i saw that Kaname said "usually" so that means that he saw yuuki more and more in the past? confused
      or am i interpreting it wrong? scratch

      No, what I really think that he saw yuki there,for the first time, but the interpretation of that text, is that he can see the future preddiciones! you think?!? it is obvious that we can no longer guarantee 100% that kaname did not know what would happen!

      Now he have something intersting here!!! confused Maybe he was know the plans of sara or what sara was going to do!!! cheers
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      Re: Kaname Sin

      Post by SassyKnight on Mon Dec 26, 2011 3:07 am

      I think Kaname CAN see what happens in the future...It was stated by Shizuka that he foresaw him able to kill her and he was waiting for his chance...And I'm guessing that he knows what Sara's actions will be and is waiting for the right time to make a move against her.

      Also, remember Sara said to Yuki that if she knew everything like Kaname? That Kaname is the Kuran Progenitor, he has powerful abilities and powers than the average Pureblood; So in that case it's possible that Kaname can see the future clearly...
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      Re: Kaname Sin

      Post by Maria Kuran on Mon Dec 26, 2011 3:09 am

      SassyKnight wrote:I think Kaname CAN see what happens in the future...It was stated by Shizuka that he foresaw him able to kill her and he was waiting for his chance...And I'm guessing that he knows what Sara's actions will be and is waiting for the right time to make a move against her.

      Also, remember Sara said to Yuki that if she knew everything like Kaname? That Kaname is the Kuran Progenitor, he has powerful abilities and powers than the average Pureblood; So in that case it's possible that Kaname can see the future clearly...

      Well is decided!!!! Kaname is HOT!!! drawling drawling
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      Re: Kaname Sin

      Post by lililovelilica on Mon Dec 26, 2011 3:40 am

      SassyKnight wrote:I think Kaname CAN see what happens in the future...It was stated by Shizuka that he foresaw him able to kill her and he was waiting for his chance...And I'm guessing that he knows what Sara's actions will be and is waiting for the right time to make a move against her.

      Also, remember Sara said to Yuki that if she knew everything like Kaname? That Kaname is the Kuran Progenitor, he has powerful abilities and powers than the average Pureblood; So in that case it's possible that Kaname can see the future clearly...
      well if he is really the king of purebloods i wouldn't be surprised if he could see what plans Sarah have to win against him
      he's just playing with sheeps...as we can say
      Sarah is in Kaname's hands...she can't do anything to hurt him...only if she have another pawn to play with....or another plans,we'll have to wait for more information... affraid but i was shocked to see kaname appearing before yuuki and zero just like that,out of the blue,confusing... scratch
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      Re: Kaname Sin

      Post by Maria Kuran on Mon Dec 26, 2011 3:53 am

      lililovelilica wrote:
      SassyKnight wrote:I think Kaname CAN see what happens in the future...It was stated by Shizuka that he foresaw him able to kill her and he was waiting for his chance...And I'm guessing that he knows what Sara's actions will be and is waiting for the right time to make a move against her.

      Also, remember Sara said to Yuki that if she knew everything like Kaname? That Kaname is the Kuran Progenitor, he has powerful abilities and powers than the average Pureblood; So in that case it's possible that Kaname can see the future clearly...
      well if he is really the king of purebloods i wouldn't be surprised if he could see what plans Sarah have to win against him
      he's just playing with sheeps...as we can say
      Sarah is in Kaname's hands...she can't do anything to hurt him...only if she have another pawn to play with....or another plans,we'll have to wait for more information... affraid but i was shocked to see kaname appearing before yuuki and zero just like that,out of the blue,confusing... scratch

      Yeah maybe kaname is losing his head for yuki!!! please he is in the academy, he saw zero demanding yuki something in what she has nothing to do!!! Please he is going to defend her!!!! Kaname kicks zero ass for doing that and yuki was going to the dorm of sara? so kaname, he was going to the same site!!! confused wow this chapter look GOOD!!! Twisted Evil
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      Re: Kaname Sin

      Post by SassyKnight on Mon Dec 26, 2011 5:59 am

      LOL I think that Zero won't be able to help himself and will start a fight with Kaname... I mean you know what Zero is like...
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      Re: Kaname Sin

      Post by Maria Kuran on Mon Dec 26, 2011 6:17 am

      SassyKnight wrote:LOL I think that Zero won't be able to help himself and will start a fight with Kaname... I mean you know what Zero is like...
      he is a teenager and kaname is an ancestor so!! is like an adult fight with a angry kid!! jajaaj but if we are talking about yuki, the both acts like childs jajaja sFun_crazybat sFun_tease2
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      Re: Kaname Sin

      Post by mariangie on Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:28 am

      My theories here . A lot of speculative ideas .

      Kaname being the one who casted the curse to hunters with the twin curse has to be the great sin described at the end of chapter 78 .

      I did have a similar theory in the past . Kaname cursing the hunters with the twins curse in the past .

      If the thing Sara did tell Zero is Kaname is the one responsable for cursing the hunters with the twins curse . Sara only said this general statement . She probably did know the whole story of what make Kaname do that . But to piss Zero . She hold the rest of the information to herself . So Sara told the half of the truth here . Enought to make him work to her side . As she needed a weapon to getting rid of Kaname . A good doggie forgotten by his masters . And making him attack the ones who were his masters as reprisal . Sara is good making chaos .

      Because if Kaname was responsable to curse the hunters . He did that because Kaname thought the hunters destroyed something precious to him . As vengance . Zero didn't know this part . As Kaname not only was in good terms with the humans in the past . But he was probably a great collaborator with the hunters during his time as vampire King . For him cursing humans was because of a very important issue that make Kaname despair so much he ended entering an eternal slumber . As could be losing his wife ( and maybe twin babies inside of her ) by orders from an unknown pureblood using the hunters as his / hers personal weapons .

      Kaname did now don't like hunters so much at the present time . Why was that ? For the little information we know . The curruption of the Hunters Association was gone after the President was killed by Kaien . Kaname continues to mistrusts them after that . Even before he become a rogue pureblood . Something happened between hunters and Kaname in the past we probably don't know . Maybe Rido was involved in that part too . The one who has to be the White Chessmaster was the mastermind behind all these events . Rido is a pureblood who could act to destroy his own family in the past . Basically making him a traitor . But I don't see him as startegist to plan a huge elaborate plan . Rido probably was used by the real White Chessmaster as one of his / her most important pieces . But I don't think Rido planned everything .

      What I think is an unknown pureblood ( The White Chessmaster )decided to make Kaname abdicate the throne because he was friend of the humans . By this meaning Kaname didn't allow the rest of the purebloods to kill humans or make those humans the purebloods' slaves . Only humans who wanted to become vampires were allowed to be bitten by purebloods . Maybe that controlled the Level E population at a minimal . As the pureblood who bites humans had to stabilize then . The White Chessmaste wanted purebloods to be allowed to do as they please . Even return to making humans as slaves . That White Chessmaster get other purebloods to believe throwing Kaname as king . Making Rido the one who govern them was the right thing to do . As Rido wanted the purebloods to do as they want without restrains .

      After several ideas of how to make Kaname abdicate . Maybe the idea of killing him or his closest family could be the one decided . Some incident making hunters responsable ( or appear to be the ones responsable . As Rido could be the one who kill his grandmother . ). Kaname's wife( not the HW) ends being killed ( maybe pregnant with twins ) . Kaname found her only remains of glass shards and dust near the door of the Kurans ' mausoleum . Kaname curse the hunters as revenge . To get their twins die as his own children did inside his wife when she die. Kaname did that because of his extreme despair . Lost his will to live . But a small hope to return to find his wife in a future life keep him against suicide . Instead he chosen slumber .

      After Kaname start his slumber . His son ; the one who was supposed to be the next king abdicates himself . Decided to end the Kuran dynasty . As he believed if Rido become the next king . Everything Kaname and the HW ( and probably Kaname's queen and wife as well ) believed was thrown aside if Rido become King . Maybe later a mysterious thing happened where Rido's parents were murdered and make appear as suicide . An event were the White Chessmaster was the planner and Rido the executer . Remember Rido is a Kuran pureblood vampire who could use anti - vampire weapons . So very useful as weapon for a pureblood who wanted to change the order of how Kaname governed the vampires in the past .

      After that , Rido was cast aside as the Kurans' head of family . Haruka became the head of family of Kuran's . Maybe that was how Haruka could ended marrying Juuri . Instead of Juuri marrying her older brother . As I imagine Rido was her original fiancee in the past .

      The sin could not be one that Yuuki nor Zero could known some information . Yuuki knew Kaname killed the Vampire Senate . Yuuki did know Kaname have some kind of involvement to make Zero protect her from Rido . Zero knew Kaname was using him to kill Rido and protect Yuuki . None of these things could be the Kaname's great sin .

      Also Kaname's sin couldn't be something related only to the killing of the Kiryus . This could be a significant event for Zero . But not so large an incident to be considered a " great sin " . For vampires in the present ; killing some strong vampire hunters members could be a thing no everyday happens . But nothing to consider so extraordinary to be called a sin .

      If Kaname casted a curse over all vampire hunters to have stillborn children if twins . Or only one survivor of a twin pair . This is a very rare event . Who could be called a sin committed by Kaname to the entire vampire hunter society .

      Being a twin with Ichiru was the original tragedy of Zero . As he devoured half of Ichiru's powers / lifeforce during their gestation period . Making Zero with one and a half powers more than a regular hunter . Ichiru got very weak and ill . He needed to take pills / medicines as show during the story . Being weak marked Ichiru from the start to want revenge on his family . As Zero was healthy and powerful . Zero has a bright future with the Hunter's Association . Ichiru could never be a hunter . So thought he has less value than his twin . Ichiru thought Zero was his parents favorites . Zero wanted to compensate Ichiru for the harm he though he did to his twin . This began a love / hate relationship from Ichiru to his parents / Zero / the rest of vampire hunter's society .

      Basically the twins curse ruin Zero's family , Ichiru and himself . If Kaname was the one responsable for the curse . Zero could revenge from the one who he could identify as the direct responsable for his tragedy .

      Sara had not exactly to lie to Zero about Kaname being the one who cast the hunter twins curse . She only don't have to explain Zero why Kaname cursed the hunters . Half truth is enough to get Zero mad enough to consider him helping Sara to getting rid of Kaname . In the fashion of my enemy enemies are my friends .


      ************************************************

      About Kaname's power to see the future ( premonitions ) :

      Indeed Kaname seems to have the power to occasionally see visions of his future . But the scene I think is relevant to this power is the one were Kaname had a nightmare of Rido killing Yuuki . Then Kaname licking the floor covered in Yuuki's blood .

      What I think about that is Kaname has no nightmare . He saw the future . A future where he could not stop Rido from killing Yuuki . Similar to the situation that I speculate happened in his past with his original wife / vampire queen / previous life of Yuuki . More , as Kaname is bond to Rido . Rido has no body to physically attack Yuuki . Rido needs to use Kaname's body for doing his deed . To kill Yuuki for regaining Rido's physical body . If this is the case ; Kaname wants Yuuki as far from him as possible . To avoid turning his premonition into a reality . For this Kaname is lying to Yuuki as much as he can . To make her distrust him and not getting near him again . As he is doing this to save Yuuki from the possibility of Rido killing Yuuki using Kaname as vessel .


      ****************************************

      On a side note : don't forget Rido continues to be alive somewhere . Bound to Kaname's existance . So he will play a more important paper in the near future . Maybe after the resolution of Sara's issues .
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      Re: Kaname Sin

      Post by SassyKnight on Mon Dec 26, 2011 12:14 pm

      Kaname FORESAW EVERYTHING! He's a Kuran Progenitor and one of the VERY FIRST vampires...And that he's also a Pureblood and a King it makes sense that he has the ability to see the future...

      Kaname is very intelligent and can easily put all of his "Pieces" together. He used Yuki and Zero's bond to use to destroy his "Master" Rido and brake the spell that bind him to Rido. He also used the Aristocrats in the Night Class only to protect Yuki. EVERYTHING he did, was obviously to protect Yuki, but sometimes I think he goes a bit too far IMO; Like killing Aidou's Father and the Pureblood Handangi.

      It's a fact that Kaname killed Handangi (Which Yuki thinks it's Sara) And I also believe that Sara was possibly MANIPULATED to kill Ouri for him for some reason.

      Just like mariangie said, I agree that Kaname is trying to make Yuki not trust him.... But IMO YuMe is broken....Kaname left her, and they haven't been able to develop their relationship much since Kaname's lied to her...

      He's full of contradictions and brings despair to everyone he's with...(rejecting Ruka and making Aidou grieve for his murdered Father, leaving Yuki with so many questions, desperate for answers...) ...And because of that he is incompatible with Yuki and IMO not his equal..

      She is Zero's equal IMO And I think that Pureblood + Vampire Hunter = FORBIDDEN LOVE, Which CLEARLY YuMe is not that.



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      Re: Kaname Sin

      Post by nina on Mon Dec 26, 2011 6:21 pm

      @SassyKnight

      Spoiler:

      SassyKnight wrote: I think Kaname CAN see what happens in the future...It was stated by Shizuka that he foresaw him able to kill her and he was waiting for his chance.


      Kaname FORESAW EVERYTHING! He's a Kuran Progenitor and one of the VERY FIRST vampires...And that he's also a Pureblood and a King it makes sense that he has the ability to see the future...

      Kaname is very intelligent and can easily put all of his "Pieces" together. He used Yuki and Zero's bond to use to destroy his "Master" Rido and brake the spell that bind him to Rido. He also used the Aristocrats in the Night Class only to protect Yuki. EVERYTHING he did, was obviously to protect Yuki, but sometimes I think he goes a bit too far IMO; Like killing Aidou's Father and the Pureblood Handangi.

      It's a fact that Kaname killed Handangi (Which Yuki thinks it's Sara) And I also believe that Sara was possibly MANIPULATED to kill Ouri for him for some reason.

      Just like mariangie said, I agree that Kaname is trying to make Yuki not trust him.... But IMO YuMe is broken....Kaname left her, and they haven't been able to develop their relationship much since Kaname's lied to her...

      He's full of contradictions and brings despair to everyone he's with...(rejecting Ruka and making Aidou grieve for his murdered Father, leaving Yuki with so many questions, desperate for answers...) ...And because of that he is incompatible with Yuki and IMO not his equal..

      She is Zero's equal IMO And I think that Pureblood + Vampire Hunter = FORBIDDEN LOVE, Which CLEARLY YuMe is not that.


      1. Actually Shizuka said that Kaname expected/predicted Zero’s reaction towards her and waited for the opportunity to kill her. She didn’t say that Kaname foresaw the future neither that she foresaw him killing her!

      We can’t exclude the possibility that Kaname can foresee some things (like he said when he saw Yuuki from the future that it was a premonition that he had often) BUT I don’t think that he can see the future. He’s “foreseeing” things mostly based on his strategic mind and knowledge, i.e. he predicts the moves of his opponents. The indication for what I’m saying is that he left Shizuka alive in order for Zero to drink from her and save himself from falling into a level-e. But since Zero arrived late and Ichirou had already devoured Shizuka’s leftovers he had to change course and give his blood to Zero.

      Another indication is that he had to change or adjust his plans when we learnt that when he was young (and had already retrieved his memory he was thinking that he might have to turn Yuuki again into a human when her mother’s spell would break. But something made him to change plans again and proceed with his original plan.

      2. He NEVER used the NC … he asked them to protect her and it is several times stated from the members of the NC that Kaname NEVER used his powers as a PB to make them do something against their FREE will. So go read again the manga … you obviously have lots of holes and twisted notions!

      Anyway this isn’t related to this specific topic.




      Please try to stay on topic as much as possible. Here we should explore what Kaname’s sin might be. There are plenty of more suitable threads to share your thoughts about Yume and Zeki.

      Thank you all in advance.




      Back on topic:

      Aya-chan and Blooredhead you have done an excellent work! cheers Well I think you have given lots of facts and observations of why Kaname can’t be behind the altered list. You’ve covered it. So I shall focus on the different possibilities.

      Bloodredhead wrote:
      aya-chan wrote: In the worse case, kaname released shizuka from the cage - maybe he pitied her because she grew up into a cage for her whole life, and she did nothing to deserve that.

      I have actually wondered who let shizuka out, i dont think she escaped herself otherwise wouldnt she have done it long ago? We know kaname saw her when he was a child in her cage, at that age its easier to feel sorry and pity someone. Though it maybe one thing hino never answers but i hope she will.

      We can’t exclude this possibility yet cuz Kaname had access to Shizuka’s cage as we saw. I also think that Shizuka might have been caged at Asato’s residence. If you remember Juuri had sent Kaname to play with Takuma. So maybe Kaname saw Shizuka for the first time in one of his visits to Takuma. Also after Juuri and Haruka’s death Kaname lived with Takuma in Asato’s residence. So he might have had the opportunity and maybe even the means to help Shizuka escape. Additional seems like Kaname felt sorry for Shizuka’s miserable life and what the senate and Rido did to her >>

      - From Kaname’s flashback when he first met the caged Shizuka:
      Shizuka: “I pity you young boy…”
      Kaname (chibi): “Are you the Kuruizaki Hime who grew up in a cage?
      Shizuka: “You, the next leader of the Kuran clan … I pity you…”
      Kaname (in the present): “And I you.” (chap.20)

      - Kaname: “It’s sad isn’t it? I wonder if anyone truly understood her … the woman who was the Kuruizaki Hime …” (chap.21)

      - Kaname to Ichirou: “If I’d destroyed this beast (Rido) … Shizuka’s fate might have been different.” (chap. 37)

      However my reservation is that Shizuka appeared to be the one who proposed to her lover to escape together.

      Here is a portion of Shizuka’s narration to Ichirou about her love story with the ex-human>>
      - From the bonus chapter volume 8:
      Shizuka to Ichirou: “He came with me (means her ex-human lover) when I proposed we run away together … but after that … what was waiting for him was…” (means his murder)

      Like you nicely observed Blood … why she didn’t try to escape before?

      My feeling from Shizuka’s words is that she hadn’t the motivation before… she was caged since birth. Abandoned from her family and unloved she was treated like an “animal in a zoo” who was fed with humans. Her love for the ex-human might have given her the stimulation to seek for a better life. Also she describes their runaway as her own proposal. So I think that even if Kaname wanted to help her escaping he wouldn’t have done it openly … I mean he wouldn’t have discussed it first with Shizuka for example hence Shizuka wouldn’t have the time to make her proposal to her lover.
      If Kaname wanted to uncage her then he would do it secretly, in order to not jeopardize finding out Asato his involvement. In short Shizuka’s escape would have been a random decision and not her proposal.

      Furthermore if Kaname had helped Shizuka to escape; this is far from considering a sin. Except if Sara is completely lying about everything.

      Anyway these are only my thoughts I could be wrong.

      Bloodredhead wrote:
      aya-chan wrote: In my opinion the sin of kaname is the twin curse
      This right here, is exactly what i am thinking too. The emphasis has been on the twins curse recently and all the talk of kaname's past sin, i dont see it as conicidence more like they are intimatly linked together, also it brings in the element of the Kuran mother, who as of yet we have no idea about or clear reference. All we know is she had to exist for the Kuran line to exist today otherwise no Yuuki.

      I agree with you. I’m also leaning towards this direction for now. As Blood pointed out the twins curse has been updated recently with Takuma’s recollection about Kaname’s reaction when he realized the existence of hunters’ twins being both alive. Also we have some references about the sinful blood or sinners since birth that do not referring to all the hunters but specifically to hunters’ twins. So it is highly possible that there is more behind that curse. Furthermore there is the part of Kaname’s past as king that we don’t know anything about it yet and Hino should use something to link the present with the past in order to unfold it. This curse might be this link. Moreover Sara emphasized on the info that she derived from Takuma that Kaname is an ancestor … an info that we haven’t see thus far how she used it. So this could be another hint that pinpoints to twins curse cuz can be linked with her knowledge that Kaname is an ancestor.

      lililovelilica wrote: Nobody considered that kaname had nothing to do with what Sarah told Zero?
      i think Sarah's just lying again1

      Yes you are right we can’t exclude this possibility either. However my estimation is that Sara used deception … I mean she might have twisted some facts or withheld the whole truth in order to present Kaname as responsible for Zero’s drama and make him her pawn as she wished for long.

      In other words there might be a base but she demonstrated twisted to serve her goals.

      Let’s explore a bit what Sara and Zero said in this chapter. (with some reservation as always till we have a translation from the Japanese text.)

      Sara: I can say that child is the fruition of Kaname’s “great sin”.

      Zero: He destroyed everything that belonged to me, my family, Ichiru, and myself…

      What is Kaname’s “great sin”? Next issue, VK on the cover!


      “the fruition of Kaname’s great sin”: How Zero could be the fruition of Kaname’s sin? I see two possibilities here.
      a) That Sara means Kaname was involved with Zero’s parents’ murder and his turning into a vampire which means that she probably lied. But when Sara says that line Zero isn’t there but only Takuma. So I think that her words contain some truth which brings me to the second possibility >

      b) That Kaname did something in the far past (as ancestor) like the curse for example thus and Zero as a hunters’ twin is the fruition/result from that. Furthermore Zero is referring to his brother Ichirou as one of Kaname’s victims.
      But Ichirou why? Ichirou made some choices … we can say that he chose his path on his own and bears great responsibility for the events that took place the night of the murder.

      I’ll adduce again the fanbook:

      “His parents deemed him unfit and he felt that eventually there would come a day when he could not be with Zero anymore. When he met the crying Shizuka he was feeling as if he had no reason to live. Ichirou saw something in Shizuka that was similar to him, and he began meeting with her secretly. Then the tragedy occurred. … He talks to the crying Shizuka … and they slowly become close. (page 154)

      “Shizuka attacks the Kiryu family … kills Zero’s parents and bites Zero. Kaien Cross starts taking care of Zero. It turns out Ichiru led Shizuka to his parents.” (page 166)

      From the summarization of volume 5 >> “Zero attacked Shizuka … However the one who saved Shizuka was Ichirou who betrayed Zero 4 years ago
      - Ichirou to Shizuka: “Shizuka you’ve got to hurry. Otherwise the hunters may get you. You can’t be regretting what you’ve done? You’ve finally had your revenge.”
      Shizuka: “I’m satisfied Ichirou … I’ve destroyed my nemesis, the Kiryus and I’ve obtained an amusing toy as well.” (chap. 20)

      From the above portions it is clear that Ichirou’s choices played a significant role to his family’s tragedy. While we can say that the rest didn’t have any choice to change their fate or they hadn’t done something which provoked such fate, for Ichirou it is different … he had choices and his choices were fatal.
      He started meeting secretly with Shizuka cuz he saw something similar to her and eventually he led Shizuka to his parents!

      Note that the night of the murder the Kiryuus were moving out … their parents were packing their stuff and when Ichirou realized that soon would be gone he rushed outside to find Shizuka and led her to his parents. So maybe if Ichirou hadn’t gone to find her that night the Kiryus might have had escaped. In any case Ichirou played an important role … a role that Kaname couldn’t have predicted or controlled.

      Furthermore … what caused this fatal stance from Ichirou? Wasn’t his condition and the fact that he wasn’t fit to be a hunter in the future hence he would be separated from Zero? Wasn’t the darkness that accumulated into his soul little by little? Wasn’t the feeling that he shouldn’t have been born in the first place? All of that is the result of the twins curse … so we can say that the initial root for the Kiryuus destiny was this curse.

      Therefore in a sense we can say that Ichirou’s life wasn’t destroyed cuz of Shizuka’s doings or the altered list but from the darkness that was growing inside him i.e. long before the killing of Shizuka’s lover from his parents.


      @mariangie I agree with many of your speculations! I have more to add but I’ll save it for later cuz my post is already huge. Razz





      "... I want to fall down with you to the very farthest depths ... taint me too Kaname"



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      lililovelilica
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      Re: Kaname Sin

      Post by lililovelilica on Mon Dec 26, 2011 6:35 pm

      mariangie wrote:My theories here . A lot of speculative ideas .

      Kaname being the one who casted the curse to hunters with the twin curse has to be the great sin described at the end of chapter 78 .

      I did have a similar theory in the past . Kaname cursing the hunters with the twins curse in the past .

      If the thing Sara did tell Zero is Kaname is the one responsable for cursing the hunters with the twins curse . Sara only said this general statement . She probably did know the whole story of what make Kaname do that . But to piss Zero . She hold the rest of the information to herself . So Sara told the half of the truth here . Enought to make him work to her side . As she needed a weapon to getting rid of Kaname . A good doggie forgotten by his masters . And making him attack the ones who were his masters as reprisal . Sara is good making chaos .

      Because if Kaname was responsable to curse the hunters . He did that because Kaname thought the hunters destroyed something precious to him . As vengance . Zero didn't know this part . As Kaname not only was in good terms with the humans in the past . But he was probably a great collaborator with the hunters during his time as vampire King . For him cursing humans was because of a very important issue that make Kaname despair so much he ended entering an eternal slumber . As could be losing his wife ( and maybe twin babies inside of her ) by orders from an unknown pureblood using the hunters as his / hers personal weapons .

      Kaname did now don't like hunters so much at the present time . Why was that ? For the little information we know . The curruption of the Hunters Association was gone after the President was killed by Kaien . Kaname continues to mistrusts them after that . Even before he become a rogue pureblood . Something happened between hunters and Kaname in the past we probably don't know . Maybe Rido was involved in that part too . The one who has to be the White Chessmaster was the mastermind behind all these events . Rido is a pureblood who could act to destroy his own family in the past . Basically making him a traitor . But I don't see him as startegist to plan a huge elaborate plan . Rido probably was used by the real White Chessmaster as one of his / her most important pieces . But I don't think Rido planned everything .

      What I think is an unknown pureblood ( The White Chessmaster )decided to make Kaname abdicate the throne because he was friend of the humans . By this meaning Kaname didn't allow the rest of the purebloods to kill humans or make those humans the purebloods' slaves . Only humans who wanted to become vampires were allowed to be bitten by purebloods . Maybe that controlled the Level E population at a minimal . As the pureblood who bites humans had to stabilize then . The White Chessmaste wanted purebloods to be allowed to do as they please . Even return to making humans as slaves . That White Chessmaster get other purebloods to believe throwing Kaname as king . Making Rido the one who govern them was the right thing to do . As Rido wanted the purebloods to do as they want without restrains .

      After several ideas of how to make Kaname abdicate . Maybe the idea of killing him or his closest family could be the one decided . Some incident making hunters responsable ( or appear to be the ones responsable . As Rido could be the one who kill his grandmother . ). Kaname's wife( not the HW) ends being killed ( maybe pregnant with twins ) . Kaname found her only remains of glass shards and dust near the door of the Kurans ' mausoleum . Kaname curse the hunters as revenge . To get their twins die as his own children did inside his wife when she die. Kaname did that because of his extreme despair . Lost his will to live . But a small hope to return to find his wife in a future life keep him against suicide . Instead he chosen slumber .

      After Kaname start his slumber . His son ; the one who was supposed to be the next king abdicates himself . Decided to end the Kuran dynasty . As he believed if Rido become the next king . Everything Kaname and the HW ( and probably Kaname's queen and wife as well ) believed was thrown aside if Rido become King . Maybe later a mysterious thing happened where Rido's parents were murdered and make appear as suicide . An event were the White Chessmaster was the planner and Rido the executer . Remember Rido is a Kuran pureblood vampire who could use anti - vampire weapons . So very useful as weapon for a pureblood who wanted to change the order of how Kaname governed the vampires in the past .

      After that , Rido was cast aside as the Kurans' head of family . Haruka became the head of family of Kuran's . Maybe that was how Haruka could ended marrying Juuri . Instead of Juuri marrying her older brother . As I imagine Rido was her original fiancee in the past .

      The sin could not be one that Yuuki nor Zero could known some information . Yuuki knew Kaname killed the Vampire Senate . Yuuki did know Kaname have some kind of involvement to make Zero protect her from Rido . Zero knew Kaname was using him to kill Rido and protect Yuuki . None of these things could be the Kaname's great sin .

      Also Kaname's sin couldn't be something related only to the killing of the Kiryus . This could be a significant event for Zero . But not so large an incident to be considered a " great sin " . For vampires in the present ; killing some strong vampire hunters members could be a thing no everyday happens . But nothing to consider so extraordinary to be called a sin .

      If Kaname casted a curse over all vampire hunters to have stillborn children if twins . Or only one survivor of a twin pair . This is a very rare event . Who could be called a sin committed by Kaname to the entire vampire hunter society .

      Being a twin with Ichiru was the original tragedy of Zero . As he devoured half of Ichiru's powers / lifeforce during their gestation period . Making Zero with one and a half powers more than a regular hunter . Ichiru got very weak and ill . He needed to take pills / medicines as show during the story . Being weak marked Ichiru from the start to want revenge on his family . As Zero was healthy and powerful . Zero has a bright future with the Hunter's Association . Ichiru could never be a hunter . So thought he has less value than his twin . Ichiru thought Zero was his parents favorites . Zero wanted to compensate Ichiru for the harm he though he did to his twin . This began a love / hate relationship from Ichiru to his parents / Zero / the rest of vampire hunter's society .

      Basically the twins curse ruin Zero's family , Ichiru and himself . If Kaname was the one responsable for the curse . Zero could revenge from the one who he could identify as the direct responsable for his tragedy .

      Sara had not exactly to lie to Zero about Kaname being the one who cast the hunter twins curse . She only don't have to explain Zero why Kaname cursed the hunters . Half truth is enough to get Zero mad enough to consider him helping Sara to getting rid of Kaname . In the fashion of my enemy enemies are my friends .


      ************************************************

      About Kaname's power to see the future ( premonitions ) :

      Indeed Kaname seems to have the power to occasionally see visions of his future . But the scene I think is relevant to this power is the one were Kaname had a nightmare of Rido killing Yuuki . Then Kaname licking the floor covered in Yuuki's blood .

      What I think about that is Kaname has no nightmare . He saw the future . A future where he could not stop Rido from killing Yuuki . Similar to the situation that I speculate happened in his past with his original wife / vampire queen / previous life of Yuuki . More , as Kaname is bond to Rido . Rido has no body to physically attack Yuuki . Rido needs to use Kaname's body for doing his deed . To kill Yuuki for regaining Rido's physical body . If this is the case ; Kaname wants Yuuki as far from him as possible . To avoid turning his premonition into a reality . For this Kaname is lying to Yuuki as much as he can . To make her distrust him and not getting near him again . As he is doing this to save Yuuki from the possibility of Rido killing Yuuki using Kaname as vessel .


      ****************************************

      On a side note : don't forget Rido continues to be alive somewhere . Bound to Kaname's existance . So he will play a more important paper in the near future . Maybe after the resolution of Sara's issues .
      I loved your post!
      it contains everything i wanted to post here!
      But i don't think kaname is guilty for the cursed twins...
      note:Kaname is responsible only for killing Shizuka,hanadagi and the senade and some vampires in his past...but he didn't killed ouri or zero's parents...
      so the story onkly shows us that until now...
      maybe kaname came to the school to END IT ALL BY KILLING SARA!
      As for Rido,yes he's really INSIDE of Kaname,but i don't think Rido would be able to control an ancestor like Kaname!

      As for everyone that's thinking Kaname will die after his plans are finished...you are completly wrong,he promissed Yuuki that after all's done,he'll come back for her sake and stay by her side for eternity! cheers
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      Re: Kaname Sin

      Post by Maria Kuran on Mon Dec 26, 2011 7:21 pm



      ************************************************

      About Kaname's power to see the future ( premonitions ) :

      Indeed Kaname seems to have the power to occasionally see visions of his future . But the scene I think is relevant to this power is the one were Kaname had a nightmare of Rido killing Yuuki . Then Kaname licking the floor covered in Yuuki's blood .

      What I think about that is Kaname has no nightmare . He saw the future . A future where he could not stop Rido from killing Yuuki . Similar to the situation that I speculate happened in his past with his original wife / vampire queen / previous life of Yuuki . More , as Kaname is bond to Rido . Rido has no body to physically attack Yuuki . Rido needs to use Kaname's body for doing his deed . To kill Yuuki for regaining Rido's physical body . If this is the case ; Kaname wants Yuuki as far from him as possible . To avoid turning his premonition into a reality . For this Kaname is lying to Yuuki as much as he can . To make her distrust him and not getting near him again . As he is doing this to save Yuuki from the possibility of Rido killing Yuuki using Kaname as vessel .


      ****************************************

      On a side note : don't forget Rido continues to be alive somewhere . Bound to Kaname's existance . So he will play a more important paper in the near future . Maybe after the resolution of Sara's issues .

      Im agree with you!!! so sad if is true!!!




      And about the twins curse:

      Why the hunter do that to kaname´s wife, simple, they (the hunters)hate instinctively vampires, so they do not need a reason or someone behind the scene (the white king) to do something. Well what I mean is that after the war ended, kaname he was the king, of who? For of the remaining vampires ... And also (I guess) controlling hunters to keep order among the vampires ... Then eventaualmente hunters began to distrust or hate kaname (as this had not committed, because the war had ended and he was a vampire = (natural hate)) and decided to do something (such as killing the wife) to show that they were not afraid of him and they rebel against the pure blood ... Well that's my simple opinion, do you think? o im tired of reading!!! jajaja


      Last edited by nina on Mon Dec 26, 2011 10:53 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : editing quote)
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      Re: Kaname Sin

      Post by lililovelilica on Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:25 pm

      The hunters-there were still just a few of them in kaname's era so we can assume that if kaname's wife was killed by them
      so to revenge them he put a curse on them!

      there's a possibility that yuuki is the reencarnation of kaname's past wife^^
      and this explains the reason why Zero's so mad about it,if what Sara said was true,then Kaname could be the principal one that's guilty of cursing everyone's future
      but that's impossible anyway
      kANAME have always been protecting the humans,he's not evil,he's good actually!
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      Is Kaname The One Who Destroyed Zero's "Everything?"

      Post by SassyKnight on Wed Dec 28, 2011 1:13 am

      I think that he is somehow connected to Zero's tragic past...Kaname could have been unexpectedly behind the scenes like Rido had been...No one in Vampire Knight could piece anything together better than Kaname.

      I think he is SOMEHOW connected to Zero's past...Sara probably twisted the truth..
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      Re: Kaname Sin

      Post by Maria Kuran on Wed Dec 28, 2011 3:01 am

      SassyKnight wrote:I think that he is somehow connected to Zero's tragic past...Kaname could have been unexpectedly behind the scenes like Rido had been...No one in Vampire Knight could piece anything together better than Kaname.

      I think he is SOMEHOW connected to Zero's past...Sara probably twisted the truth..

      i think that he was the real enemy, that maria was taking about zero, the real enemy of pure blood!!! affraid
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      Re: Kaname Sin

      Post by *Evis* on Wed Dec 28, 2011 8:11 pm

      mariangie wrote:My theories here . A lot of speculative ideas .

      Kaname being the one who casted the curse to hunters with the twin curse has to be the great sin described at the end of chapter 78 .

      I did have a similar theory in the past . Kaname cursing the hunters with the twins curse in the past .

      If the thing Sara did tell Zero is Kaname is the one responsable for cursing the hunters with the twins curse .

      I am afraid i have to disagree on that.Kaname was woken up from his slumber by rido.As we all know in order to do that he sacrificed the first child of haruka and juuri, so that he could revive kaname.And than it happens that exactly a year later a hunter family gave birth to a pair of twins.It just seems to coincidental.Kaname could not have predicted such a thing unless he had had a prediction of the future in his past life.It is irrelevant to think that he had put a curse on the hunter lineage only for the day when finally two twins were born.What if the twins had been born two centuries ago!So i believe we can not come to the conclusion that Kaname was the one who put the curse over the twins.
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      Re: Kaname Sin

      Post by aya-chan on Wed Dec 28, 2011 8:22 pm

      *Evis* wrote:
      mariangie wrote:My theories here . A lot of speculative ideas .

      Kaname being the one who casted the curse to hunters with the twin curse has to be the great sin described at the end of chapter 78 .

      I did have a similar theory in the past . Kaname cursing the hunters with the twins curse in the past .

      If the thing Sara did tell Zero is Kaname is the one responsable for cursing the hunters with the twins curse .

      I am afraid i have to disagree on that.Kaname was woken up from his slumber by rido.As we all know in order to do that he sacrificed the first child of haruka and juuri, so that he could revive kaname.And than it happens that exactly a year later a hunter family gave birth to a pair of twins.It just seems to coincidental.Kaname could not have predicted such a thing unless he had had a prediction of the future in his past life.It is irrelevant to think that he had put a curse on the hunter lineage only for the day when finally two twins were born.What if the twins had been born two centuries ago!So i believe we can not come to the conclusion that Kaname was the one who put the curse over the twins.

      I think you misunderstood mariangie. Mariangie is saying kaname put the twin curse upon hunters before entering in slumber.
      until now, kiryu's case is the only we know, but I think in the past existed more cases of twins, but in those cases both children weren't born, but only one or neither - according to the curse.
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      Re: Kaname Sin

      Post by *Evis* on Wed Dec 28, 2011 8:28 pm

      aya-chan wrote:
      *Evis* wrote:
      mariangie wrote:My theories here . A lot of speculative ideas .

      Kaname being the one who casted the curse to hunters with the twin curse has to be the great sin described at the end of chapter 78 .

      I did have a similar theory in the past . Kaname cursing the hunters with the twins curse in the past .

      If the thing Sara did tell Zero is Kaname is the one responsable for cursing the hunters with the twins curse .

      I am afraid i have to disagree on that.Kaname was woken up from his slumber by rido.As we all know in order to do that he sacrificed the first child of haruka and juuri, so that he could revive kaname.And than it happens that exactly a year later a hunter family gave birth to a pair of twins.It just seems to coincidental.Kaname could not have predicted such a thing unless he had had a prediction of the future in his past life.It is irrelevant to think that he had put a curse on the hunter lineage only for the day when finally two twins were born.What if the twins had been born two centuries ago!So i believe we can not come to the conclusion that Kaname was the one who put the curse over the twins.

      I think you misunderstood mariangie. Mariangie is saying kaname put the twin curse upon hunters before entering in slumber.
      until now, kiryu's case is the only we know, but I think in the past existed more cases of twins, but in those cases both children weren't born, but only one or neither - according to the curse.
      ah from that point of view....well guess you are right sSc_hidingsofa
      but still i just keep wondering why did kaname put a curse on them!
      On what purpose!!
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      Re: Kaname Sin

      Post by aya-chan on Wed Dec 28, 2011 8:39 pm

      *Evis* wrote:
      but still i just keep wondering why did kaname put a curse on them!
      On what purpose!!

      Kaname cast that curse upon hunters to punish them for devouring a progenitor vampire.
      I don't think is about hooded woman. after she sacrificed her life, kaname was the one who gave them wisdom and fought side by side. it wouldn't make sense for hunters to fight on the same side with a vampire who cursed them.
      But if those hunters devoured kaname past wife, and maybe she was pregnant it would make sense for kaname to do such a thing. ofc these are only speculations - we need for manga to tell us more about kaname sin.
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      Re: Kaname Sin

      Post by juliet on Wed Dec 28, 2011 9:48 pm

      And if not the hunters twin what else could it be? since right now Hino has covered all the doors and windows in order to say that kaname changed the list...

      the only think that i could also assume as an alternative would be Kaname releasing Shizuka but due to seeing her being in a desperate state just like Nina had pointed out before> what is confusing though is Aidou's dad that had mentioned that Kaname had witnessed the gravest sin in the history of purebloods> this is a confusing part and i think that most readers when thinking about Kaname's sin reflect exactly that line, relate it to Shizuka and thus the conclusion that perhaps he changed that list...

      but at least under the current information that does not make sense either because as we know the greatest offense is killing a pureblood and this is stated in the fan book that explains a bit more the history and the norms of VK society...

      in Shizuka's case there is no killing of pureblood> but that does not necessary means that the council was not attempting some kind of rituals in the expense of the purebloods that he preserved in order to manipulate their power....and that makes me wonder concerning Aidou's dad reference that perhaps Shizuka was in a way heavily abused by the council that preserved her under custody for still unknown reasons...and also there are still unknown the reasons why Shizuka was accepting even her captivity > but again given to the council from a very early age perhaps she had accepted the fact that this was going to be her life, according to her family wishes> so there are also other explanations in there and the hunter's list (which as a mystery has been already resolved whereas other parts concerning Shizuka and the council remain a mystery) is not the one and only way to go...

      now if Kaname had secretly released Shizuka there was no way that he could have predicted the drama that would occur, yet Sara could have used that information in order to twist it around and say that Zero had been his target all along> its quite easy in this case, non?

      after all I highly doubt that Hino would ever burn Kaname or if she did that she would not find a way and a background story to justify his acts..

      I think that the same happens with Zero to be honest> right now he has fallen into a trap and might take him a while before he recognizes how Sara has manipulated everything and his story as a whole in order to make her ends..but apparently he needs to snap out of it.






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