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      aya-chan
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      Kaname Sin

      Post by aya-chan on Sun Dec 25, 2011 8:12 pm

      First topic message reminder :

      This subject was discussed on another thread http://vampireknight.all-up.com/t1079p40-vampire-knight-chapter-78-full-raws-first-translation#24325 and decided to make a topic about this matter, and my reply is as respons to caela.

      Spoiler:
      caela wrote:About what Zero is accusing Kaname of: If Zero was just accusing Kaname of messing/causing the hunter's twin curse, which happened thousands of years ago, I doubt there would be this much anger.

      Also, I doubt a Chinese translator would confuse "blood-line," "clan" and "family". These are all separate Japanese Kanji/Chinese characters.

      Zero is blaming the deaths of his parents, Ichiru's death and the forced change of Zero's from human to vampire, on Kaname.

      ********************************

      Is the accusation possible? As far as I am concerned, Kaname is smart enough to fool Shizuka. Also The girl was stuck in a cage for who knows how long. Its not like Shizuka was privy to all the latest information like Sara was.

      All I know is that, the entire time I have been on all-up, I have always questioned even Rido's physical ability to change the list (his motive isn't that great either). Who ever changed the list is probably the enemy of the purebloods and Kaname, to me, is still a candidate. I suppose that means Sara is also a possibility. Rido was never written with enough brains to be a real possibility.

      ********************************

      About Zero trying to save Yuuki from Kaname: I meant it in a moral sense. Yuuki and Zero's dynamic has always been conditional (as opposed to Yume's unconditional dynamic): Yuuki protected Zero because of her sense of justice, and Zero protected Yuuki because of his respect of that sense of justice (yes, other reasons as well....but focusing on one reason for both for a reason).

      Yuuki claims to be willing to be "tainted" by Kaname. So far, that statement of hers has not really been tested. If Yuuki accepts Kaname now, without verifying Zero's accusations as either true or false, it looks like Zero is willing to cut ties with Yuuki.

      Why I dissagree with kaname being the culprit behind zero's tragedy:

      I. For Kaname to be the real culprit for zero's tragedy, means for him - kaname - to predict with a 100%accuracy the following events:
      >>>shizuka to have a lover
      >>>to put shizuka's lover on hunter list
      >>>gave this mission to zero's parents
      >>>and shizuka reacting this way:
      • kill zero parents

      • turn zero into a vampire

      • taking care of ichiru

      • ichiru returns and he's badly wounded by rido

      • zero devour his brother and he became the most powerful hunter


      And let's be serious, is impossible to predict those things. Shizuka was a vampire in grief, she could react in many ways, such as:
      >>>turning both children in vampires in front of their parents and let the parents alive
      >>>killing both children in front of their parents and let the parents alive
      *a parent biggest pain is to lose their children
      >>>Turning both children in vampires and then killing the parents
      >>>killing both children and then killing the parents
      >>>to kill the parents and zero and keep ichiru as a vampire or human

      But shizuka turned zero into a vampire in front of his parents and later she killed them, and keep ichiru on her side.

      For zero to be turned into a vampire and shizuka keeping ichiru and later zero to devour his brother was a must for zero to become the most powerful hunter.

      For me this seems to be a gamble, and kaname doesn't gamble.
      Moreover, for kaname to alter hunting list meant for him to have power in hunters association, which we knows he did not have nor in the present.
      But we knows who had: rido. rido was hand in hand with asato and the last one was an accomplice with the former hunter president.

      In the worse case, kaname released shizuka from the cage - maybe he pitied her because she grew up into a cage for her whole life, and she did nothing to deserve that.

      Info from official fanbook

      >>>The Hio family has a history of members going berserk, so she was brought up into a cage. she also lost the one she loved, so she grew to have a peculiar sense of life and death

      >>>She was locked and confinement right after she was born and given humans as food. She began to love a man, but he was executed by vampire hunters. She goes berserk and with rage and sorrow and attacks her enemy, kiryu family.


      But what happened with her lover has nothing to do with kaname, as well her reaction to her lover death.

      II. Shizuka came into cross academy to gain kaname's blood in order to have the power to kill rido, the real culprit. After shizuka regained her senses she made her own investigation and according to that the real culprit is rido.
      Facts sustained by:
      >>>kaname chapter 19

      We probably have the same objective in mind...shizuka - refference to rido - and continued in chapter 20

      I shall destroy what you truly hated...those who twisted our fate of the purebloods.

      >>>Maria chapter 26

      There was someone behind the scenes who used the kiryu's as pawns to hunt down shizuka's lover. Someone who wasn't happy that she was in love with a vampire who used to be a human. And when shizuka regained her senses, she realized who the real enemy was and tried to gain more power to destroy her enemy. who ever did those things to her is the real enemy...the enemy of the purebloods and of you.

      >>>Ichiru chapter 40

      I tried only to fulfill shizuka-sama wish...He was my only target...The one who imprisoned shizuka-sama and interffered with the execution list...Rido Kuran.

      All these quotes, as a whole show rido as the real culprit.

      Why Zero shouted with so much passion, remains for us to find out in the upcomings chapters, but one thing I am sure: kaname is not the real culprit behind zero's tragedy.

      In my opinion the sin of kaname is the twin curse - and this is the goal of this thread.

      I doubt the curse was put on hunters after HW death. Initially Kaname had wanted to sacrifice his life, and obviously he did not intend to cast a curse upon them, and I doubt he did it after her sacrifice.

      Something must be behind that.

      If hunters ate another female pureblood - kaname past wife - who probably was pregnant, it makes sense for kaname to curse them. Eating her, lifes got lost, and the perfect punishment for them was for pregnant hunter women to lose a child/children as well.
      A life for a life.

      According to twin curse when a mother is pregnant with twins is a misscarriage or stillbirth - both children will die or only one will survive. - zero and ichiru case was a rarity.
      Facts sustained by kaname chapter 37

      This is the first time I've seen a pair of hunter twins who both are alive. It's rare so I...In the hunter lineage when a mother is pregnant with twins there usually is a miscarriage or a stillbirth...

      The fetuses aren't selfaware yet. Manipulated by instinct the two will devour each other in the mother wombs just like vampires.

      Kaname: Occasionally a twin fetus will devour the entire life and powers of the twin in the womb and be born into this world as one of the strongest and most depraved hunters.









      Last edited by aya-chan on Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:18 pm; edited 1 time in total

      juliet
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      Re: Kaname Sin

      Post by juliet on Wed Dec 28, 2011 9:48 pm

      And if not the hunters twin what else could it be? since right now Hino has covered all the doors and windows in order to say that kaname changed the list...

      the only think that i could also assume as an alternative would be Kaname releasing Shizuka but due to seeing her being in a desperate state just like Nina had pointed out before> what is confusing though is Aidou's dad that had mentioned that Kaname had witnessed the gravest sin in the history of purebloods> this is a confusing part and i think that most readers when thinking about Kaname's sin reflect exactly that line, relate it to Shizuka and thus the conclusion that perhaps he changed that list...

      but at least under the current information that does not make sense either because as we know the greatest offense is killing a pureblood and this is stated in the fan book that explains a bit more the history and the norms of VK society...

      in Shizuka's case there is no killing of pureblood> but that does not necessary means that the council was not attempting some kind of rituals in the expense of the purebloods that he preserved in order to manipulate their power....and that makes me wonder concerning Aidou's dad reference that perhaps Shizuka was in a way heavily abused by the council that preserved her under custody for still unknown reasons...and also there are still unknown the reasons why Shizuka was accepting even her captivity > but again given to the council from a very early age perhaps she had accepted the fact that this was going to be her life, according to her family wishes> so there are also other explanations in there and the hunter's list (which as a mystery has been already resolved whereas other parts concerning Shizuka and the council remain a mystery) is not the one and only way to go...

      now if Kaname had secretly released Shizuka there was no way that he could have predicted the drama that would occur, yet Sara could have used that information in order to twist it around and say that Zero had been his target all along> its quite easy in this case, non?

      after all I highly doubt that Hino would ever burn Kaname or if she did that she would not find a way and a background story to justify his acts..

      I think that the same happens with Zero to be honest> right now he has fallen into a trap and might take him a while before he recognizes how Sara has manipulated everything and his story as a whole in order to make her ends..but apparently he needs to snap out of it.
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      Re: Kaname Sin

      Post by nina on Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:50 pm

      *Evis* wrote:
      ah from that point of view....well guess you are right sSc_hidingsofa
      but still i just keep wondering why did kaname put a curse on them!
      On what purpose!!


      Hm… as aya-chan said above we only theorizing here cuz this twins’ curse is updated and we have some references here and there in the manga that aren’t addressed yet. Seems like one of the mysteries in VK.

      We do not know if Kaname cursed the hunters (and that in his ancestral time) or how it happened or why.

      For example … when the first hunters devoured the hooded woman on one hand they gained the power and the means (anti-vampire weapons) to defend themselves by killing PBs but on the other hand this action came with a price … they were/are bound to desire for bloodshed eternally by hunting down vampires.
      http://www.mangareader.net/104-57201-15/vampire-knight/chapter-64.html

      The only exception from this bond is Kaien.

      If we think about it, viz what the ancient hunters did, they have violated their human nature … in a sense this was cannibalism. So they gain something but in the same time lost a part of their human nature.

      What I’m trying to say here is that this twins’ curse might be something similar i.e. to stem from a sinful action that some hunters might have done in the past.

      For example Kaien tried to kill Juuri thinking that by this way he could break this fate >>
      http://www.mangareader.net/104-2171-17/vampire-knight/chapter-45.html

      Why? And Kaien it might be a twin who devoured totally his brother in the womb. Could this scene or Kaien’s attempt to have any relation with the twins curse? Cuz Kaien relates his fate with the Kurans there …

      Another point that might be a hint that something happened between the hunters and Kaname is the Bloody Rose itself. This gun seems to be used from Kaname in the past and note without a name on it >>
      http://www.mangareader.net/104-57201-22/vampire-knight/chapter-64.html
      http://www.mangareader.net/104-57201-23/vampire-knight/chapter-64.html
      http://www.mangareader.net/104-57201-24/vampire-knight/chapter-64.html

      The gun had no name back then … so how and why “baptized” Bloody Rose? Does it have any connection with the resin (red) rose that Kaname gave to Yuuki? How this gun ended up in Zero’s possession before he even becomes a hunter? It was a coincidence having such a powerful weapon as a shield for Yuuki??? I think it is highly possible to be Kaname the one who gave the gun to Kaien to give it specifically to Zero for Yuuki’s protection.
      Could all these elements to have any connection with the death of Kaname’s wife in the past thus and baptized it Bloody Rose? >>
      Bloody --> for her death/murder from this gun
      Rose --> as a symbol of her existence.

      And to stretch it further lol … If Yuuki is the reincarnation of Kaname’s past wife who lost her life with the involvement of hunters < this could be a reason of why Kaname gave the role of the shield to Zero (< the result of the twins curse) as an obligation for what his ancestors had done to her in the past.
      And now comes to my mind the scene where Zero pointed the Bloody Rose to Yuuki after the battle with Zero … Kaname lost it there! Imagine if his wife lost her life in the past from this gun! That could be sort of a déjà vu thus he went ballistic …

      Okay … all of that are only speculations of what might have happened in Kaname’s past … my attempt to connect some elements lol.






      "... I want to fall down with you to the very farthest depths ... taint me too Kaname"



      Spoiler:

      *wants to sneak under these bed sheets*
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      lililovelilica
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      Re: Kaname Sin

      Post by lililovelilica on Thu Dec 29, 2011 3:15 am

      nina wrote:
      *Evis* wrote:
      ah from that point of view....well guess you are right sSc_hidingsofa
      but still i just keep wondering why did kaname put a curse on them!
      On what purpose!!

      Another point that might be a hint that something happened between the hunters and Kaname is the Bloody Rose itself. This gun seems to be used from Kaname in the past and note without a name on it >>
      http://www.mangareader.net/104-57201-22/vampire-knight/chapter-64.html
      http://www.mangareader.net/104-57201-23/vampire-knight/chapter-64.html
      http://www.mangareader.net/104-57201-24/vampire-knight/chapter-64.html

      The gun had no name back then … so how and why “baptized” Bloody Rose? Does it have any connection with the resin (red) rose that Kaname gave to Yuuki? How this gun ended up in Zero’s possession before he even becomes a hunter? It was a coincidence having such a powerful weapon as a shield for Yuuki??? I think it is highly possible to be Kaname the one who gave the gun to Kaien to give it specifically to Zero for Yuuki’s protection.
      Could all these elements to have any connection with the death of Kaname’s wife in the past thus and baptized it Bloody Rose? >>
      Bloody --> for her death/murder from this gun
      Rose --> as a symbol of her existence.

      And to stretch it further lol … If Yuuki is the reincarnation of Kaname’s past wife who lost her life with the involvement of hunters < this could be a reason of why Kaname gave the role of the shield to Zero (< the result of the twins curse) as an obligation for what his ancestors had done to her in the past.
      And now comes to my mind the scene where Zero pointed the Bloody Rose to Yuuki after the battle with Zero … Kaname lost it there! Imagine if his wife lost her life in the past from this gun! That could be sort of a déjà vu thus he went ballistic …

      Okay … all of that are only speculations of what might have happened in Kaname’s past … my attempt to connect some elements lol.

      Well,i'll begin with this page here:http://www.mangareader.net/104-57201-22/vampire-knight/chapter-64.html
      IT'S YUUKI who named the artemis but bloodrose could be named by her after that encounter,since Kaname said this after meeting Yuuki:"-It's a Premonition i OFTEN HAVE!
      wich means he did met her before and maybe after that as well!? confused

      About Yuuki's being the reencarnation of Kaname's past wife,i think that's probaly true,since he's so overprotective of her and also made Zero protect her since the beggining calling him her "shield"

      Hino-sensei often give the readers "hints" to discover some secrets about the mysteries we so desire to discover,but that's just what i think,you don't have to think so hard about that okay?since i'm a Yume fan i really want to Yuuki being Kaname's past wife,it's more romantic that way
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      Re: Kaname Sin

      Post by Maria Kuran on Thu Dec 29, 2011 3:55 am

      lililovelilica wrote:
      nina wrote:
      *Evis* wrote:
      ah from that point of view....well guess you are right sSc_hidingsofa
      but still i just keep wondering why did kaname put a curse on them!
      On what purpose!!

      Another point that might be a hint that something happened between the hunters and Kaname is the Bloody Rose itself. This gun seems to be used from Kaname in the past and note without a name on it >>
      http://www.mangareader.net/104-57201-22/vampire-knight/chapter-64.html
      http://www.mangareader.net/104-57201-23/vampire-knight/chapter-64.html
      http://www.mangareader.net/104-57201-24/vampire-knight/chapter-64.html

      The gun had no name back then … so how and why “baptized” Bloody Rose? Does it have any connection with the resin (red) rose that Kaname gave to Yuuki? How this gun ended up in Zero’s possession before he even becomes a hunter? It was a coincidence having such a powerful weapon as a shield for Yuuki??? I think it is highly possible to be Kaname the one who gave the gun to Kaien to give it specifically to Zero for Yuuki’s protection.
      Could all these elements to have any connection with the death of Kaname’s wife in the past thus and baptized it Bloody Rose? >>
      Bloody --> for her death/murder from this gun
      Rose --> as a symbol of her existence.

      And to stretch it further lol … If Yuuki is the reincarnation of Kaname’s past wife who lost her life with the involvement of hunters < this could be a reason of why Kaname gave the role of the shield to Zero (< the result of the twins curse) as an obligation for what his ancestors had done to her in the past.
      And now comes to my mind the scene where Zero pointed the Bloody Rose to Yuuki after the battle with Zero … Kaname lost it there! Imagine if his wife lost her life in the past from this gun! That could be sort of a déjà vu thus he went ballistic …

      Okay … all of that are only speculations of what might have happened in Kaname’s past … my attempt to connect some elements lol.

      Well,i'll begin with this page here:http://www.mangareader.net/104-57201-22/vampire-knight/chapter-64.html
      IT'S YUUKI who named the artemis but bloodrose could be named by her after that encounter,since Kaname said this after meeting Yuuki:"-It's a Premonition i OFTEN HAVE!
      wich means he did met her before and maybe after that as well!? confused

      About Yuuki's being the reencarnation of Kaname's past wife,i think that's probaly true,since he's so overprotective of her and also made Zero protect her since the beggining calling him her "shield"

      Hino-sensei often give the readers "hints" to discover some secrets about the mysteries we so desire to discover,but that's just what i think,you don't have to think so hard about that okay?since i'm a Yume fan i really want to Yuuki being Kaname's past wife,it's more romantic that way

      I think the same than you!!!
      And if yuki was kaname wife in the past and really was pregnant of twins!!! That will be shock for me!!! jajaja but to romantic 2!!!
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      lililovelilica
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      Re: Kaname Sin

      Post by lililovelilica on Fri Dec 30, 2011 1:35 am

      Kaname's past wife WAS YUUKI!There's enough proof for that don't ya think?if you're curious read the manga more carefully! Cool
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      Re: Kaname Sin

      Post by Maria Kuran on Fri Dec 30, 2011 3:32 am

      lililovelilica wrote:Kaname's past wife WAS YUUKI!There's enough proof for that don't ya think?if you're curious read the manga more carefully! Cool


      Yes u right!!!! hahahaha cheers
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      Re: Kaname Sin

      Post by Pinacolada on Fri Dec 30, 2011 3:16 pm

      my theory is that the hunters in the past began to desire more power ...so they went to the kuran family ( Kaname /Wife) to demand
      for their flesh and blood..of course Kaname refused.A conflict started in which the hunters threated them to stop their "work" of hunting Level E´s and furthermore forme an alliance with other purblood families to bring down the kuran clan.THe Queen who was worried about the safety of humans and her own family decided to sacifice herself.It all happened behind the back of kaname and as he found this out it was already too late .The hunters have already devoured her and the unborn twins.In his pain he cursed the hunters .Nowadays /In the present he is killing all the purbloods who agreed on the alliance with the hunters as a punishment.


      Sorry for my worse english ....I hope you understand what I was trying to explain
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      Re: Kaname Sin

      Post by lililovelilica on Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:29 pm

      Pinacolada wrote:my theory is that the hunters in the past began to desire more power ...so they went to the kuran family ( Kaname /Wife) to demand
      for their flesh and blood..of course Kaname refused.A conflict started in which the hunters threated them to stop their "work" of hunting Level E´s and furthermore forme an alliance with other purblood families to bring down the kuran clan.THe Queen who was worried about the safety of humans and her own family decided to sacifice herself.It all happened behind the back of kaname and as he found this out it was already too late .The hunters have already devoured her and the unborn twins.In his pain he cursed the hunters .Nowadays /In the present he is killing all the purbloods who agreed on the alliance with the hunters as a punishment.


      Sorry for my worse english ....I hope you understand what I was trying to explain
      agreed,that is an great supposition!"^^
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      Re: Kaname Sin

      Post by Divine Rose on Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:32 pm

      Pinacolada wrote:my theory is that the hunters in the past began to desire more power ...so they went to the kuran family ( Kaname /Wife) to demand
      for their flesh and blood..of course Kaname refused.A conflict started in which the hunters threated them to stop their "work" of hunting Level E´s and furthermore forme an alliance with other purblood families to bring down the kuran clan.THe Queen who was worried about the safety of humans and her own family decided to sacifice herself.It all happened behind the back of kaname and as he found this out it was already too late .The hunters have already devoured her and the unborn twins.In his pain he cursed the hunters .Nowadays /In the present he is killing all the purbloods who agreed on the alliance with the hunters as a punishment.


      Sorry for my worse english ....I hope you understand what I was trying to explain

      I agree. This is the most likely thing to have happen. And the most, if not only, logical reason to explain the hunters' curse. And it would explain some things.
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      Re: Kaname Sin

      Post by theangelgirl1992 on Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:25 pm

      Pinacolada wrote:my theory is that the hunters in the past began to desire more power ...so they went to the kuran family ( Kaname /Wife) to demand
      for their flesh and blood..of course Kaname refused.A conflict started in which the hunters threated them to stop their "work" of hunting Level E´s and furthermore forme an alliance with other purblood families to bring down the kuran clan.THe Queen who was worried about the safety of humans and her own family decided to sacifice herself.It all happened behind the back of kaname and as he found this out it was already too late .The hunters have already devoured her and the unborn twins.In his pain he cursed the hunters .Nowadays /In the present he is killing all the purbloods who agreed on the alliance with the hunters as a punishment.


      Sorry for my worse English ....I hope you understand what I was trying to explain

      You're theory seems very realistic and highly possible of becoming canon on Vampire Knight. If your theory is real it strengthens my believe that Yuuki is truly the vampire queen. The Queen like you say sacrificed herself to give the vampire hunters strength to probably help the humans, but it didn't help at all because Kaname probably cursed them and the hunters started to hate the vampires for it. It caused a wedge between vampires and hunters and that has a bad influence to the co-existence; therefore the queen's sacrifice was an meaningless sacrifice. Isn't Kaname's worst fear that Yuuki will sacrifice herself for an meaningless cause? Didn't she volunteer to give her blood to the vampire population for the sake of co-existence in chapter 78. History is threatening to repeat itself except this time it will be for the vampires instead for the hunters TTT__TTT. Yuuki you have to be the first vampire queen all hints are pointing to YOU.


      Last edited by theangelgirl1992 on Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:42 pm; edited 2 times in total
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      Re: Kaname Sin

      Post by Maria Kuran on Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:33 pm

      Pinacolada wrote:my theory is that the hunters in the past began to desire more power ...so they went to the kuran family ( Kaname /Wife) to demand
      for their flesh and blood..of course Kaname refused.A conflict started in which the hunters threated them to stop their "work" of hunting Level E´s and furthermore forme an alliance with other purblood families to bring down the kuran clan.THe Queen who was worried about the safety of humans and her own family decided to sacifice herself.It all happened behind the back of kaname and as he found this out it was already too late .The hunters have already devoured her and the unborn twins.In his pain he cursed the hunters .Nowadays /In the present he is killing all the purbloods who agreed on the alliance with the hunters as a punishment.


      Sorry for my worse english ....I hope you understand what I was trying to explain

      Oh! God you're so right! How clever! Thank you! I do not have crossed my mind in a million of years!
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      Re: Kaname Sin

      Post by lililovelilica on Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:38 pm

      I'm certaqin Kaname wants to kill Zero to end the twin curse?
      maybe that's why he wants to kill sara(a pureblood)
      and the ones who's been hiding from him in the shadows!
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      Re: Kaname Sin

      Post by Maria Kuran on Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:41 pm

      lililovelilica wrote:I'm certaqin Kaname wants to kill Zero to end the twin curse?
      maybe that's why he wants to kill sara(a pureblood)
      and the ones who's been hiding from him in the shadows!

      Well yes, is not like kaname wants another reason to kill zero!!! Dah!!! jajaja hypnotise
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      Re: Kaname Sin

      Post by lililovelilica on Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:45 pm

      Maria Kuran wrote:
      lililovelilica wrote:I'm certaqin Kaname wants to kill Zero to end the twin curse?
      maybe that's why he wants to kill sara(a pureblood)
      and the ones who's been hiding from him in the shadows!

      Well yes, is not like kaname wants another reason to kill zero!!! Dah!!! jajaja hypnotise
      Well Zero killed Rido
      and now Rido's inside Kaname
      maybe that's another reason?maybe?
      Rido's still on Kaname's mind remember?
      that's why the scene where he wants yuuki's blood so much! rofl
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      Re: Kaname Sin

      Post by Maria Kuran on Fri Dec 30, 2011 11:00 pm

      lililovelilica wrote:
      Maria Kuran wrote:
      lililovelilica wrote:I'm certaqin Kaname wants to kill Zero to end the twin curse?
      maybe that's why he wants to kill sara(a pureblood)
      and the ones who's been hiding from him in the shadows!

      Well yes, is not like kaname wants another reason to kill zero!!! Dah!!! jajaja hypnotise
      Well Zero killed Rido
      and now Rido's inside Kaname
      maybe that's another reason?maybe?
      Rido's still on Kaname's mind remember?
      that's why the scene where he wants yuuki's blood so much! rofl

      Jjajaja, you are right, but but i was saying as like sarcastic way, because we know that kaname wish kill zero!!! jajaja you know him!!!! sFun_hailtheking
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      Re: Kaname Sin

      Post by juliet on Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:07 am

      theangelgirl1992 wrote:
      Pinacolada wrote:my theory is that the hunters in the past began to desire more power ...so they went to the kuran family ( Kaname /Wife) to demand
      for their flesh and blood..of course Kaname refused.A conflict started in which the hunters threated them to stop their "work" of hunting Level E´s and furthermore forme an alliance with other purblood families to bring down the kuran clan.THe Queen who was worried about the safety of humans and her own family decided to sacifice herself.It all happened behind the back of kaname and as he found this out it was already too late .The hunters have already devoured her and the unborn twins.In his pain he cursed the hunters .Nowadays /In the present he is killing all the purbloods who agreed on the alliance with the hunters as a punishment.


      Sorry for my worse English ....I hope you understand what I was trying to explain

      You're theory seems very realistic and highly possible of becoming canon on Vampire Knight. If your theory is real it strengthens my believe that Yuuki is truly the vampire queen. The Queen like you say sacrificed herself to give the vampire hunters strength to probably help the humans, but it didn't help at all because Kaname probably cursed them and the hunters started to hate the vampires for it. It caused a wedge between vampires and hunters and that has a bad influence to the co-existence; therefore the queen's sacrifice was an meaningless sacrifice. Isn't Kaname's worst fear that Yuuki will sacrifice herself for an meaningless cause? Didn't she volunteer to give her blood to the vampire population for the sake of co-existence in chapter 78. History is threatening to repeat itself except this time it will be for the vampires instead for the hunters TTT__TTT. Yuuki you have to be the first vampire queen all hints are pointing to YOU.

      its a very interesting theory there is a gap in history that Hino certainly has not filled < the Kuran's descendants and all how Kaname ended feeling all alone since he apparently had kids - so why the despair? something tragic must have happened...then perhaps all of these elements can blend in with the hunters curse and explain from where the actual curse came from > I think that Hino has opened the door but I wonder if she really intends to cover all of these issues?








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      Re: Kaname Sin

      Post by Maria Kuran on Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:11 am

      juliet wrote:
      theangelgirl1992 wrote:
      Pinacolada wrote:my theory is that the hunters in the past began to desire more power ...so they went to the kuran family ( Kaname /Wife) to demand
      for their flesh and blood..of course Kaname refused.A conflict started in which the hunters threated them to stop their "work" of hunting Level E´s and furthermore forme an alliance with other purblood families to bring down the kuran clan.THe Queen who was worried about the safety of humans and her own family decided to sacifice herself.It all happened behind the back of kaname and as he found this out it was already too late .The hunters have already devoured her and the unborn twins.In his pain he cursed the hunters .Nowadays /In the present he is killing all the purbloods who agreed on the alliance with the hunters as a punishment.


      Sorry for my worse English ....I hope you understand what I was trying to explain

      You're theory seems very realistic and highly possible of becoming canon on Vampire Knight. If your theory is real it strengthens my believe that Yuuki is truly the vampire queen. The Queen like you say sacrificed herself to give the vampire hunters strength to probably help the humans, but it didn't help at all because Kaname probably cursed them and the hunters started to hate the vampires for it. It caused a wedge between vampires and hunters and that has a bad influence to the co-existence; therefore the queen's sacrifice was an meaningless sacrifice. Isn't Kaname's worst fear that Yuuki will sacrifice herself for an meaningless cause? Didn't she volunteer to give her blood to the vampire population for the sake of co-existence in chapter 78. History is threatening to repeat itself except this time it will be for the vampires instead for the hunters TTT__TTT. Yuuki you have to be the first vampire queen all hints are pointing to YOU.

      its a very interesting theory there is a gap in history that Hino certainly has not filled < the Kuran's descendants and all how Kaname ended feeling all alone since he apparently had kids - so why the despair? something tragic must have happened...then perhaps all of these elements can blend in with the hunters curse and explain from where the actual curse came from > I think that Hino has opened the door but I wonder if she really intends to cover all of these issues?




      Oh!!! Please a less one!!! Just one spoiler from the next chapter!!! Hino-sensei please!!!1
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      Re: Kaname Sin

      Post by juliet on Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:25 am

      Maria Kuran wrote:


      Oh!!! Please a less one!!! Just one spoiler from the next chapter!!! Hino-sensei please!!!1

      haha, patience my dear..patience...






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      Re: Kaname Sin

      Post by lililovelilica on Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:30 am

      juliet wrote:
      Maria Kuran wrote:


      Oh!!! Please a less one!!! Just one spoiler from the next chapter!!! Hino-sensei please!!!1

      haha, patience my dear..patience...
      Do we have to wait until next year/are you crazy?we want answers now!NOW! Twisted Evil geek
      i don't understand how hino-sensei thinks scratch
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      Re: Kaname Sin

      Post by Maria Kuran on Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:34 am

      lililovelilica wrote:
      juliet wrote:
      Maria Kuran wrote:


      Oh!!! Please a less one!!! Just one spoiler from the next chapter!!! Hino-sensei please!!!1

      haha, patience my dear..patience...
      Do we have to wait until next year/are you crazy?we want answers now!NOW! Twisted Evil geek
      i don't understand how hino-sensei thinks scratch

      Yes!!! i wish be hino.sensei for one day!!! so i can know kanames plans!!! because that´s the only thing driving me mad!!! sSig_ban sSig_DOH
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      Re: Kaname Sin

      Post by juliet on Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:37 am

      Maria Kuran wrote:
      lililovelilica wrote:
      juliet wrote:
      Maria Kuran wrote:


      Oh!!! Please a less one!!! Just one spoiler from the next chapter!!! Hino-sensei please!!!1

      haha, patience my dear..patience...
      Do we have to wait until next year/are you crazy?we want answers now!NOW! Twisted Evil geek
      i don't understand how hino-sensei thinks scratch

      Yes!!! i wish be hino.sensei for one day!!! so i can know kanames plans!!! because that´s the only thing driving me mad!!! sSig_ban sSig_DOH


      imagine the ones that started at chapter one...no I do not want to think about it...well mysteries remain, i guess that's what makes this manga so interesting in the first place....







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      Re: Kaname Sin

      Post by Maria Kuran on Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:45 am

      juliet wrote:
      Maria Kuran wrote:
      lililovelilica wrote:
      Do we have to wait until next year/are you crazy?we want answers now!NOW! Twisted Evil geek
      i don't understand how hino-sensei thinks scratch

      Yes!!! i wish be hino.sensei for one day!!! so i can know kanames plans!!! because that´s the only thing driving me mad!!! sSig_ban sSig_DOH


      imagine the ones that started at chapter one...no I do not want to think about it...well mysteries remain, i guess that's what makes this manga so interesting in the first place....


      Yes!!! I just love Vampire Knight, Take my breath away!!!
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      Re: Kaname Sin

      Post by Knightmare on Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:55 am

      i don't think Kaname's sin has anything to do with creating the twin curse, mostly cos i don't think its a literal curse. i think is more of a metaphor for the nature of hunters and twins have it worse as the strongest. the "curse" is because they have more vampiric dna, the stronger a hunter is, the more "vampiric dna" that have. so its all pretty much a result of what they are to begin with.

      the curse is not being born twins because they consume each other or one before they are born. why would Zero lament the curse if it didn't actually affect them? the curse made Ichiru weak, but he survived. Zero would have to blame ichiru's feelings of inadequacy and luring Shizuka to their family (which she was already going to kill anyway) on Kaname. Its far too convoluted for Zero to make that leap. Zero takes it far too personally and talks about his family being destroyed because of Kaname's sin.

      we also have Nagamichi accusing Kaname of getting involved in something shady just before Shizuka's disappearance. and Takuma's statement that Kaname's interest in the twin hunters were the beginning of his plan. if his plan isn't over, why is kaname no longer interested in Zero?

      -why is kaname interest in twin hunters?
      everyone is interested in them. they are rare creatures, and shizuka also liked that about the twins, she knew one would be strong, shizuka's interest in zero was about setting up someone strong enough to defy her. I think Kaname is interested in Zero because he defies his vampiric nature. Zero defied the "curse" by not consuming his twin. Zero is not your typical hunter or vampire. Zero delayed his awakening for 4 years (according to Kaname, that took incredible strength), he defied obeying his master and he also has no natural respect or fear of purebloods. Zero is a rare and odd creature. Zero uses his bloody rose in a manner like a pureblood vampire does.

      -why is kaname no longer interested in Zero?
      Kaname used Zero for killing Rido to break the curse on Kaname. he fostered and forgave Zero his actions, kaname hinted to ichiru to give his fragment to Zero and in this way, fostered Zero to become strong enough to consume everything. and he did it all so Zero could kill Rido.

      Kaname was interested in Zero before he became a vampire. Had Zero stayed a regular hunter, he would have been no stronger than Kaien, weaker perhaps, because he did not complete the fragment. So Kaname would have benefited only if Zero became a vampire? Enough to justify ensuring that Zero became a vampire? I don't think so.

      kaname encourages pieces along their path, but doesn't force it. He takes advantage of other's actions and makes suggestions that could led them down a path he would take advantage of. Kaname rolls with the punches. When Shizuka attacked Zero, Kaname did not move to protect his piece. I suspect that if Zero had not been strong enough to face shizuka, he was not the piece Kaname was looking for. Thus, Kaname stating he would have let Zero die.

      Rido changed the list so that Shizuka's lover was on the list, but how did he find out about it? how did shizuka escape? how did the Kiryuu's to that vampire end up being the ones to kill her lover? both the hunters and the council were working with Rido.

      i don't think kaname set zero up, there looks to be too much to do if that were the case, but his interest could definitely have adversely affected Zero's life. But any of kaname's actions in the past, could have led to something related to that attack.

      Zero exaggerates, but kaname has to do something that Zero would blame him along for, that qualifies as his calling everything about Kaname tainted. To me, the only thing that justifies Zero's stance, is that he believes that Kaname was directly involved in his family's tragedy, deliberately or accidentally. I think that helping Shizuka to escape would be enough for Zero to make that claim, but it doesn't gel with the other events hinted at, unless these are separate events, in which case, kaname has a lot to reveal yet.

      kaname and zero are at odds and again, yuuki is in the middle. i hope we see the battle we missed out on really getting in chapter 46.
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      Re: Kaname Sin

      Post by Maria Kuran on Sat Dec 31, 2011 3:03 am

      Knightmare wrote:i don't think Kaname's sin has anything to do with creating the twin curse, mostly cos i don't think its a literal curse. i think is more of a metaphor for the nature of hunters and twins have it worse as the strongest. the "curse" is because they have more vampiric dna, the stronger a hunter is, the more "vampiric dna" that have. so its all pretty much a result of what they are to begin with.

      the curse is not being born twins because they consume each other or one before they are born. why would Zero lament the curse if it didn't actually affect them? the curse made Ichiru weak, but he survived. Zero would have to blame ichiru's feelings of inadequacy and luring Shizuka to their family (which she was already going to kill anyway) on Kaname. Its far too convoluted for Zero to make that leap. Zero takes it far too personally and talks about his family being destroyed because of Kaname's sin.

      we also have Nagamichi accusing Kaname of getting involved in something shady just before Shizuka's disappearance. and Takuma's statement that Kaname's interest in the twin hunters were the beginning of his plan. if his plan isn't over, why is kaname no longer interested in Zero?

      -why is kaname interest in twin hunters?
      everyone is interested in them. they are rare creatures, and shizuka also liked that about the twins, she knew one would be strong, shizuka's interest in zero was about setting up someone strong enough to defy her. I think Kaname is interested in Zero because he defies his vampiric nature. Zero defied the "curse" by not consuming his twin. Zero is not your typical hunter or vampire. Zero delayed his awakening for 4 years (according to Kaname, that took incredible strength), he defied obeying his master and he also has no natural respect or fear of purebloods. Zero is a rare and odd creature. Zero uses his bloody rose in a manner like a pureblood vampire does.

      -why is kaname no longer interested in Zero?
      Kaname used Zero for killing Rido to break the curse on Kaname. he fostered and forgave Zero his actions, kaname hinted to ichiru to give his fragment to Zero and in this way, fostered Zero to become strong enough to consume everything. and he did it all so Zero could kill Rido.

      Kaname was interested in Zero before he became a vampire. Had Zero stayed a regular hunter, he would have been no stronger than Kaien, weaker perhaps, because he did not complete the fragment. So Kaname would have benefited only if Zero became a vampire? Enough to justify ensuring that Zero became a vampire? I don't think so.

      kaname encourages pieces along their path, but doesn't force it. He takes advantage of other's actions and makes suggestions that could led them down a path he would take advantage of. Kaname rolls with the punches. When Shizuka attacked Zero, Kaname did not move to protect his piece. I suspect that if Zero had not been strong enough to face shizuka, he was not the piece Kaname was looking for. Thus, Kaname stating he would have let Zero die.

      Rido changed the list so that Shizuka's lover was on the list, but how did he find out about it? how did shizuka escape? how did the Kiryuu's to that vampire end up being the ones to kill her lover? both the hunters and the council were working with Rido.

      i don't think kaname set zero up, there looks to be too much to do if that were the case, but his interest could definitely have adversely affected Zero's life. But any of kaname's actions in the past, could have led to something related to that attack.

      Zero exaggerates, but kaname has to do something that Zero would blame him along for, that qualifies as his calling everything about Kaname tainted. To me, the only thing that justifies Zero's stance, is that he believes that Kaname was directly involved in his family's tragedy, deliberately or accidentally. I think that helping Shizuka to escape would be enough for Zero to make that claim, but it doesn't gel with the other events hinted at, unless these are separate events, in which case, kaname has a lot to reveal yet.

      kaname and zero are at odds and again, yuuki is in the middle. i hope we see the battle we missed out on really getting in chapter 46.

      if you have a strong point of view! and based entirely on facts! Thanks for sharing! And I also agree with you, now I see the other side! AND YES I BLOOD PLEASE!!! JAJAJA THANKS AGAIN!!! sBo_jumping
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      Re: Kaname Sin

      Post by juliet on Sat Dec 31, 2011 3:15 am

      To me, the only thing that justifies Zero's stance, is that he believes that Kaname was directly involved in his family's tragedy, deliberately or accidentally. I think that helping Shizuka to escape would be enough for Zero to make that claim, but it doesn't gel with the other events hinted at, unless these are separate events, in which case, kaname has a lot to reveal yet.

      Due to late hours I am not in condition to go all of your points, in general i agree there is a high possibility that we had also pointed out that Kaname might be the one that released Shizuka at the past...i quote myself there (older post)

      the only think that i could also assume as an alternative would be Kaname releasing Shizuka but due to seeing her being in a desperate state just like Nina had pointed out before> what is confusing though is Aidou's dad that had mentioned that Kaname had witnessed the gravest sin in the history of purebloods> this is a confusing part and i think that most readers when thinking about Kaname's sin reflect exactly that line, relate it to Shizuka and thus the conclusion that perhaps he changed that list...

      now if Kaname had secretly released Shizuka there was no way that he could have predicted the drama that would occur, yet Sara could have used that information in order to twist it around and say that Zero had been his target all along> its quite easy in this case, non?


      but what are the events that do not blend in with this possibility that you refer to?

      and also to add that the case where Kaname released Shizuka with a plan already in mind (with the plan to kill Zero's parents and get that piece for himself) is very contradictory IMO with Kaname's original plan > because that would mean that he would risk losing his piece - the danger was greater than his reward because after all he had no way of predicting what Shizuka would do with the twins- Ichirou is the one that actually had the ideas there- and as we saw there was no relation between kaname and Ichirou- but of course Kaname can be accused for that by Sara, because she only says the half truth here and not the whole truth as for example the way Ichijou might know it - and that can also explain why Takuma tried to stop her (because he knows that she shall twist everything...

      plus there is the point there that at that time Shizuka was engaged to Rido, even in the state that he was, so her escape certainly caused an irritation to the council -something that Asato did not wish and that along with other things that the council kept as a secret - example the manipulation of purebloods, feeding them humans, perhaps preserving Shizuka to aid at Rido's revival- could be Kaname's initial motive for aiding her - if he did- without even she knowing it.








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      Re: Kaname Sin

      Post by lililovelilica on Sat Dec 31, 2011 4:15 am

      juliet wrote:
      To me, the only thing that justifies Zero's stance, is that he believes that Kaname was directly involved in his family's tragedy, deliberately or accidentally. I think that helping Shizuka to escape would be enough for Zero to make that claim, but it doesn't gel with the other events hinted at, unless these are separate events, in which case, kaname has a lot to reveal yet.

      Due to late hours I am not in condition to go all of your points, in general i agree there is a high possibility that we had also pointed out that Kaname might be the one that released Shizuka at the past...i quote myself there (older post)

      the only think that i could also assume as an alternative would be Kaname releasing Shizuka but due to seeing her being in a desperate state just like Nina had pointed out before> what is confusing though is Aidou's dad that had mentioned that Kaname had witnessed the gravest sin in the history of purebloods> this is a confusing part and i think that most readers when thinking about Kaname's sin reflect exactly that line, relate it to Shizuka and thus the conclusion that perhaps he changed that list...

      now if Kaname had secretly released Shizuka there was no way that he could have predicted the drama that would occur, yet Sara could have used that information in order to twist it around and say that Zero had been his target all along> its quite easy in this case, non?


      but what are the events that do not blend in with this possibility that you refer to?

      and also to add that the case where Kaname released Shizuka with a plan already in mind (with the plan to kill Zero's parents and get that piece for himself) is very contradictory IMO with Kaname's original plan > because that would mean that he would risk losing his piece - the danger was greater than his reward because after all he had no way of predicting what Shizuka would do with the twins- Ichirou is the one that actually had the ideas there- and as we saw there was no relation between kaname and Ichirou- but of course Kaname can be accused for that by Sara, because she only says the half truth here and not the whole truth as for example the way Ichijou might know it - and that can also explain why Takuma tried to stop her (because he knows that she shall twist everything...

      plus there is the point there that at that time Shizuka was engaged to Rido, even in the state that he was, so her escape certainly caused an irritation to the council -something that Asato did not wish and that along with other things that the council kept as a secret - example the manipulation of purebloods, feeding them humans, perhaps preserving Shizuka to aid at Rido's revival- could be Kaname's initial motive for aiding her - if he did- without even she knowing it.


      Well...about the death of zero's parents...i don't think that's Kaname's fault at all...that actually happened by the hands of fate or something related to that...but i think Kaname was actually waiting for someone able to kill rido and help him kill his past enemies...Kaname's not that evil like everyone's thinking he is,he's pretending to be evil and a cold killer...he just wants to end with all the things he couldn't do in his past...well that's what i think of him...after he's done with everythink he'll come to Yuuki's side...or the reverse...well i don't know but if i was Hino-sensei i would end like this:Maria stay with Zero^^ and Yuuki finaly becomes Kaname's wife and they live hapily ever after KYA^^

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