Kaname Sin

First topic message reminder :

This subject was discussed on another thread https://vampireknight.all-up.com/t1079p40-vampire-knight-chapter-78-full-raws-first-translation#24325 and decided to make a topic about this matter, and my reply is as respons to caela.

Spoiler:

Why I dissagree with kaname being the culprit behind zero's tragedy:

I. For Kaname to be the real culprit for zero's tragedy, means for him - kaname - to predict with a 100%accuracy the following events:
>>>shizuka to have a lover
>>>to put shizuka's lover on hunter list
>>>gave this mission to zero's parents
>>>and shizuka reacting this way:

• kill zero parents

• turn zero into a vampire

• taking care of ichiru

• ichiru returns and he's badly wounded by rido

• zero devour his brother and he became the most powerful hunter

And let's be serious, is impossible to predict those things. Shizuka was a vampire in grief, she could react in many ways, such as:
>>>turning both children in vampires in front of their parents and let the parents alive
>>>killing both children in front of their parents and let the parents alive
*a parent biggest pain is to lose their children
>>>Turning both children in vampires and then killing the parents
>>>killing both children and then killing the parents
>>>to kill the parents and zero and keep ichiru as a vampire or human

But shizuka turned zero into a vampire in front of his parents and later she killed them, and keep ichiru on her side.

For zero to be turned into a vampire and shizuka keeping ichiru and later zero to devour his brother was a must for zero to become the most powerful hunter.

For me this seems to be a gamble, and kaname doesn't gamble.
Moreover, for kaname to alter hunting list meant for him to have power in hunters association, which we knows he did not have nor in the present.
But we knows who had: rido. rido was hand in hand with asato and the last one was an accomplice with the former hunter president.

In the worse case, kaname released shizuka from the cage - maybe he pitied her because she grew up into a cage for her whole life, and she did nothing to deserve that.

Info from official fanbook

>>>The Hio family has a history of members going berserk, so she was brought up into a cage. she also lost the one she loved, so she grew to have a peculiar sense of life and death

>>>She was locked and confinement right after she was born and given humans as food. She began to love a man, but he was executed by vampire hunters. She goes berserk and with rage and sorrow and attacks her enemy, kiryu family.

But what happened with her lover has nothing to do with kaname, as well her reaction to her lover death.

II. Shizuka came into cross academy to gain kaname's blood in order to have the power to kill rido, the real culprit. After shizuka regained her senses she made her own investigation and according to that the real culprit is rido.
Facts sustained by:
>>>kaname chapter 19

We probably have the same objective in mind...shizuka - refference to rido - and continued in chapter 20

I shall destroy what you truly hated...those who twisted our fate of the purebloods.

>>>Maria chapter 26

There was someone behind the scenes who used the kiryu's as pawns to hunt down shizuka's lover. Someone who wasn't happy that she was in love with a vampire who used to be a human. And when shizuka regained her senses, she realized who the real enemy was and tried to gain more power to destroy her enemy. who ever did those things to her is the real enemy...the enemy of the purebloods and of you.

>>>Ichiru chapter 40

I tried only to fulfill shizuka-sama wish...He was my only target...The one who imprisoned shizuka-sama and interffered with the execution list...Rido Kuran.

All these quotes, as a whole show rido as the real culprit.

Why Zero shouted with so much passion, remains for us to find out in the upcomings chapters, but one thing I am sure: kaname is not the real culprit behind zero's tragedy.

In my opinion the sin of kaname is the twin curse - and this is the goal of this thread.

I doubt the curse was put on hunters after HW death. Initially Kaname had wanted to sacrifice his life, and obviously he did not intend to cast a curse upon them, and I doubt he did it after her sacrifice.

Something must be behind that.

If hunters ate another female pureblood - kaname past wife - who probably was pregnant, it makes sense for kaname to curse them. Eating her, lifes got lost, and the perfect punishment for them was for pregnant hunter women to lose a child/children as well.
A life for a life.

According to twin curse when a mother is pregnant with twins is a misscarriage or stillbirth - both children will die or only one will survive. - zero and ichiru case was a rarity.
Facts sustained by kaname chapter 37

This is the first time I've seen a pair of hunter twins who both are alive. It's rare so I...In the hunter lineage when a mother is pregnant with twins there usually is a miscarriage or a stillbirth...

The fetuses aren't selfaware yet. Manipulated by instinct the two will devour each other in the mother wombs just like vampires.

Kaname: Occasionally a twin fetus will devour the entire life and powers of the twin in the womb and be born into this world as one of the strongest and most depraved hunters.

juliet wrote:

To me, the only thing that justifies Zero's stance, is that he believes that Kaname was directly involved in his family's tragedy, deliberately or accidentally. I think that helping Shizuka to escape would be enough for Zero to make that claim, but it doesn't gel with the other events hinted at, unless these are separate events, in which case, kaname has a lot to reveal yet.

Due to late hours I am not in condition to go all of your points, in general i agree there is a high possibility that we had also pointed out that Kaname might be the one that released Shizuka at the past...i quote myself there (older post)

the only think that i could also assume as an alternative would be Kaname releasing Shizuka but due to seeing her being in a desperate state just like Nina had pointed out before> what is confusing though is Aidou's dad that had mentioned that Kaname had witnessed the gravest sin in the history of purebloods> this is a confusing part and i think that most readers when thinking about Kaname's sin reflect exactly that line, relate it to Shizuka and thus the conclusion that perhaps he changed that list...

now if Kaname had secretly released Shizuka there was no way that he could have predicted the drama that would occur, yet Sara could have used that information in order to twist it around and say that Zero had been his target all along> its quite easy in this case, non?

but what are the events that do not blend in with this possibility that you refer to?

and also to add that the case where Kaname released Shizuka with a plan already in mind (with the plan to kill Zero's parents and get that piece for himself) is very contradictory IMO with Kaname's original plan > because that would mean that he would risk losing his piece - the danger was greater than his reward because after all he had no way of predicting what Shizuka would do with the twins- Ichirou is the one that actually had the ideas there- and as we saw there was no relation between kaname and Ichirou- but of course Kaname can be accused for that by Sara, because she only says the half truth here and not the whole truth as for example the way Ichijou might know it - and that can also explain why Takuma tried to stop her (because he knows that she shall twist everything...

plus there is the point there that at that time Shizuka was engaged to Rido, even in the state that he was, so her escape certainly caused an irritation to the council -something that Asato did not wish and that along with other things that the council kept as a secret - example the manipulation of purebloods, feeding them humans, perhaps preserving Shizuka to aid at Rido's revival- could be Kaname's initial motive for aiding her - if he did- without even she knowing it.

Well...about the death of zero's parents...i don't think that's Kaname's fault at all...that actually happened by the hands of fate or something related to that...but i think Kaname was actually waiting for someone able to kill rido and help him kill his past enemies...Kaname's not that evil like everyone's thinking he is,he's pretending to be evil and a cold killer...he just wants to end with all the things he couldn't do in his past...well that's what i think of him...after he's done with everythink he'll come to Yuuki's side...or the reverse...well i don't know but if i was Hino-sensei i would end like this:Maria stay with Zero^^ and Yuuki finaly becomes Kaname's wife and they live hapily ever after KYA^^

Knightmare wrote:i don't think Kaname's sin has anything to do with creating the twin curse, mostly cos i don't think its a literal curse. i think is more of a metaphor for the nature of hunters and twins have it worse as the strongest. the "curse" is because they have more vampiric dna, the stronger a hunter is, the more "vampiric dna" that have. so its all pretty much a result of what they are to begin with.

the curse is not being born twins because they consume each other or one before they are born. why would Zero lament the curse if it didn't actually affect them? the curse made Ichiru weak, but he survived. Zero would have to blame ichiru's feelings of inadequacy and luring Shizuka to their family (which she was already going to kill anyway) on Kaname. Its far too convoluted for Zero to make that leap. Zero takes it far too personally and talks about his family being destroyed because of Kaname's sin.

we also have Nagamichi accusing Kaname of getting involved in something shady just before Shizuka's disappearance. and Takuma's statement that Kaname's interest in the twin hunters were the beginning of his plan. if his plan isn't over, why is kaname no longer interested in Zero?

-why is kaname interest in twin hunters?
everyone is interested in them. they are rare creatures, and shizuka also liked that about the twins, she knew one would be strong, shizuka's interest in zero was about setting up someone strong enough to defy her. I think Kaname is interested in Zero because he defies his vampiric nature. Zero defied the "curse" by not consuming his twin. Zero is not your typical hunter or vampire. Zero delayed his awakening for 4 years (according to Kaname, that took incredible strength), he defied obeying his master and he also has no natural respect or fear of purebloods. Zero is a rare and odd creature. Zero uses his bloody rose in a manner like a pureblood vampire does.

-why is kaname no longer interested in Zero?
Kaname used Zero for killing Rido to break the curse on Kaname. he fostered and forgave Zero his actions, kaname hinted to ichiru to give his fragment to Zero and in this way, fostered Zero to become strong enough to consume everything. and he did it all so Zero could kill Rido.

Kaname was interested in Zero before he became a vampire. Had Zero stayed a regular hunter, he would have been no stronger than Kaien, weaker perhaps, because he did not complete the fragment. So Kaname would have benefited only if Zero became a vampire? Enough to justify ensuring that Zero became a vampire? I don't think so.

kaname encourages pieces along their path, but doesn't force it. He takes advantage of other's actions and makes suggestions that could led them down a path he would take advantage of. Kaname rolls with the punches. When Shizuka attacked Zero, Kaname did not move to protect his piece. I suspect that if Zero had not been strong enough to face shizuka, he was not the piece Kaname was looking for. Thus, Kaname stating he would have let Zero die.

Rido changed the list so that Shizuka's lover was on the list, but how did he find out about it? how did shizuka escape? how did the Kiryuu's to that vampire end up being the ones to kill her lover? both the hunters and the council were working with Rido.

i don't think kaname set zero up, there looks to be too much to do if that were the case, but his interest could definitely have adversely affected Zero's life. But any of kaname's actions in the past, could have led to something related to that attack.

Zero exaggerates, but kaname has to do something that Zero would blame him along for, that qualifies as his calling everything about Kaname tainted. To me, the only thing that justifies Zero's stance, is that he believes that Kaname was directly involved in his family's tragedy, deliberately or accidentally. I think that helping Shizuka to escape would be enough for Zero to make that claim, but it doesn't gel with the other events hinted at, unless these are separate events, in which case, kaname has a lot to reveal yet.

kaname and zero are at odds and again, yuuki is in the middle. i hope we see the battle we missed out on really getting in chapter 46.

I agree thoroughly with you, particularly on the twin curse and the tactics that Kaname uses while assembling his board. I never really assumed that the twin curse was an actual curse because VK hasn't dealt much with things of the like, and it doesn't seem completely plausible that Kaname would have "started" a twin curse. To me, it's more of a tangible name for the violent innate tendencies of vampires that have been passed onto hunters as a result of their consuming the Hooded Woman's blood (I'd really like for Hino to give us her name because I don't like calling her simply Hooded Woman). Some assumptions about the curse don't quite make sense to me, though they are interesting for fanfic ideas and such.

As for Kaname's tactics of play, I think you're spot on! He's passive aggressive and nudges where nudges need be in order to get what he wants. It doesn't make much sense for him to bluntly and openly commit something as evil as what Zero has pinned him to, but again, the nudges. If Kaname did indirectly and passively nudge an event (say? Shizuka's release/escape or something that nudged that occurence along) that could have resulted in the tragedy of the Kiryus, then Sara could easily manipulate some facts, which she has admitted to, and do the damage necessary to cause some chaos, which is all that she needs to aquire a weapon with which she keep her own schemes rolling.

The Shizuka-release thing is only a theory, and it may hold no water at all, but then theories are really all we've got until Hino gives us some answers.

juliet wrote:
but what are the events that do not blend in with this possibility that you refer to?

I mean, Kaname helping Shizuka escape does not gel as the single event in Kaname's life as the purebloods greatest crime. In fact, except for Zero, I don't think anyone could really call it a "great" sin or worst crime in the history of purebloods as Nagamichi calls it. However Sara does use " " to refer to "great sin", which could mean, she doesn't consider it so - but then, that doesn't mean a lot coming from someone that Takuma accused of doing the worse crime of purebloods.

Sara says that Zero is the fruition of Kaname's "great sin". A statement like that echos Rido's claims that Shizuka planted the seed and Kaname raised it and Rido was going to reap the fruits. Kaname made no secret that he was cultivating Zero and Zero certainly resented it, but he got over it along the way. now he's back to hating on kaname and worse than before.

So Sara and Nagamichi are both talking about a great sin/crime and using the same similar grave wording. it all really hinges on whether Sara and Nagamichi were talking about the same thing.

Nagamichi also asked Kaname about sacrificing others, which definitely means he's not talking about anything to do with Shizuka being freed (it occured before she was freed).

and also to add that the case where Kaname released Shizuka with a plan already in mind (with the plan to kill Zero's parents and get that piece for himself) is very contradictory IMO with Kaname's original plan > because that would mean that he would risk losing his piece - the danger was greater than his reward because after all he had no way of predicting what Shizuka would do with the twins- Ichirou is the one that actually had the ideas there- and as we saw there was no relation between kaname and Ichirou- but of course Kaname can be accused for that by Sara, because she only says the half truth here and not the whole truth as for example the way Ichijou might know it - and that can also explain why Takuma tried to stop her (because he knows that she shall twist everything...

ya, its too much to count on for a deliberate goal of having a pureblood turn Zero into a vampire and putting him into a position where kaname could use him.

After Kaname first notices the twins, the following has to happen:
1. Shizuka falls for an ex-human (this may have already happened by the time that kaname meets her)
2. Shizuka escapes with her lover
3. Rido puts her lover on the list
4. The kiryuus be the ones to kill that ex-human
5. Shizuka finds (they were trying to keep hidden) and kills the kiryuus
6. Shizuka chooses to bite Zero
6. Yagari leaves Zero with Kaien

the danger of Shizuka killing Zero, i think the chances are pretty low. Shizuka would realise quickly that Zero was too valuable a piece to kill as a twin hunter. in fact, she bit Zero before she killed their parents. she said she bit Zero to curse him because of his sinful blood. ichiru says she kept Zero alive because ichiru asked it, but Shizuka never expressed any intentions of killing Zero when she attacked their parents and she assumes that he didn't really want his parents killed (in spite of his words) and says she was forced to kill them out of revenge.

honestly considering kaname's nature, i don't think he'd do that deliberately to a human. i think he'd just keep tabs on him as a person of interest with intentions to use him when the time came.

now if Kaname had secretly released Shizuka there was no way that he could have predicted the drama that would occur, yet Sara could have used that information in order to twist it around and say that Zero had been his target all along> its quite easy in this case, non?

Very true. also had kaname not awakened rido or let zero destroy rido while he was still rising from the coffin, ichiru might still be alive. this is also something sara could twist too. course zero might not have been willing to destroy rido by that point just to protect yuuki. but this is not something that hino would use as a big secret since we already know about it and shizuka's escape prolly is likely that hino would use this as the big secret that kinda becomes underwhelming when we find out. hahaha.

hm, thinking about it, Zero could assume it himself also, if he realises that kaname has been interested in him since before he became a vampire. that kaname has been making "plans" for him since way back then. that kaname's involvement in his life justifies his belief that kaname taints everything and destroyed his family and began the cycle of "using" Zero.

if this is the case, then nagamichi's worse crime is another kaname secret we are waiting to find out about, likely when we learn why kaname killed him.

well I like the mystery of it all, especially when you need to consider factors like why this secret prompts Zero to "protect" Sara and asking Kaien about Kaname's "plan".

Well this is my point of view from both sides of the story, we have been assuming, that may be the great sin of kaname and as it relates to the tragedy of life of zero:

1-Twins Curse: This is a very strong supocicion almost come to life on the forum! lol, but doesn´t have a solid foundation, so for that reason really affects zero, as it if was twin, but as both live, but then had to eat Zero Ichiru. Then at the end the curse was fulfilled. And if kaname really put the curse, if there would be something you can blame for. Since the twins birth, the superstitions surrounding them from the curse, and was partly true, since ichiru was always sick and weak, to the point where ichiru own parents admitted that he never would become a real hunter as zero, and all this was hearing by ichuiru, then he came out of the house and went looking for Shizuka, to which he tearfully told everything he felt. Shizuka felt sorry for the child and if she wanted revenge, and had two reasons .. Then, Shizuka killed Zero's parents and made him into a vampire, Shizuka took ichiru. Zero´s life was ruined at that moment. My point is that, because of the curse, the family of zero disintegrated. And there may be to blame of kaname, to put this curse. And also can help, he manipulated beyond the list of hunters for do that the parents of zero kill shizuka love.

2-Kaname opening shizuka cage, so she escaped: This is the most logical concept, based on the facts, and would have caused almost all of the above. Kaname let out shizuka to be escaped with his love, that he then placed the love of it in the list of execution. So she sought revenge on kyruu downloading (remember that, Kaname, you can see the future or are predictions, and could see Zero). Kaname was interested in zero, zero or not but especially twins, and this would serve to protect Yuki and get Rido kill, seeing that he was a strong young man, decided to test and verify what was suspected, after do that he realize that zero was a strong hunter, so he molding him To his own way for kill Rido. After that Kaname did not care more. This may be an "indication" of what zero accuses Kaname,for destroy his life.To Used him for his own personal use.

So that´s what is think!! I do not like expand the things to much but...i do what i can!!!

WELL SARA COULD JUST BE SAYING A HOLE BUNCH OF CRAP

Due to late hour I do not have time to give a detalied reply but I will try to point out the holes.

Maria Kuran wrote:And also can help, he manipulated beyond the list of hunters for do that the parents of zero kill shizuka love.

Had/has kaname decission power in hunter association? I know the mission are given to hunters by another member of hunters association, not by vampire council nor kaname.
That mission could have been give to any other hunter.

The manga and official fanbook give us the one who changed the list being Rido, not Kaname.

Official fanbook





And with this opportunity I want to respond to

caela wrote:Let me ask you: Did Rido ever had the power to order the vampire senate to do anything in the manga?

That's what it says in the fanbook in the part Aya-chan used as proof.

Rido and Vampire Senate had a symbiosis relationship.

The Collaborative International Dictionary of English

The living together in more or less imitative association or even close union of two dissimilar organisms.

antipathetic symbiosis, in which the association is disadvantageous or destructive to one of the organisms, but ordinarily it is used of cases where the association is advantageous, or often necessary, to one or both, and not harmful to either.

WordNet Dictionary

the relation between two different species of organisms that are interdependent; each gains benefits from the other [syn: mutualism]

As a translation: Rido used them to gain some favors, and the senate used Rido into their plans, hence "symbiosis".

And manga

>>>kaname chapter 19

We probably have the same objective in mind...shizuka - refference to rido - and continued in chapter 20

I shall destroy what you truly hated...those who twisted our fate of the purebloods.

>>>Maria chapter 26

There was someone behind the scenes who used the kiryu's as pawns to hunt down shizuka's lover. Someone who wasn't happy that she was in love with a vampire who used to be a human. And when shizuka regained her senses, she realized who the real enemy was and tried to gain more power to destroy her enemy. who ever did those things to her is the real enemy...the enemy of the purebloods and of you.

>>>Ichiru chapter 40

I tried only to fulfill shizuka-sama wish...He was my only target...The one who imprisoned shizuka-sama and interffered with the execution list...Rido Kuran.

All these quotes, as a whole show rido as the real culprit.

What's the point in manga showing Rido as the real culprit, and confirmed by fanbook? - a fanbook which have at the base Hino Matsuri story.
what's the point in fanbook to promote a false information?
Edit: Moreover, in fanbook with few pages before the pages who's scans I have showed start a mini-chapter named Yuuki, Kaname,Zero - the truth about the three! and above this is write Read these pages at your own risk! Only for those who really want to know the truth!

Kaname let out shizuka to be escaped with his love, that he then placed the love of it in the list of execution.

It's possible for Kaname to be the one who released shizuka, but how I proved above - based on manga and fanbook - the one who changed the list was Rido.

Kaname was interested in zero, zero or not but especially twins, and this would serve to protect Yuki and get Rido kill,

Actually manga show Kaname was interested in Zero after he came into Cross house, not before.

Chapter 39, vol 9

Kaname to Zero: It's been a little over four years...and the pawn I've carefully nurtured is now almost to devour the king.

If you're reffering at the panels from previous chapter where kaname see for the first time the twins, those does not specifically show his interes towards twins - like he wants to used them for his plans later.
Another interpretation of kaname expression in those panels is his surprise to see twins when they shouldn't have been born. According to the curse:

In the hunter lineage when a mother is pregnant with twins there usually is a miscarriage or a stillbirth...The fetuses aren't selfaware yet. Manipulated by instinct the two will devour each other in the mother wombs just like vampires.
Occasionally a twin fetus will devour the entire life and powers of the twin in the womb and be born into this world as one of the strongest and most depraved hunters. - Kaname, chapter 37 vol 8

Kaname, you can see the future or are predictions, and could see Zero

Apparently some give too much credit to kaname visions. a vision is not detalied. for kaname to release shizuka in order to have zero as pawn meant for kaname to have a clear vision of the events:
>>>shizuka to have a lover
>>>to put shizuka's lover on hunter list
>>>gave this mission to zero's parents
>>>and shizuka reacting this way:
- kill zero parents
- turn zero into a vampire
- taking care of ichiru
>>>Zero being in Cross care
>>>ichiru returns and he's badly wounded by rido
>>>zero devour his brother and he became the most powerful hunter

All these events should have been see by kaname before releasing Shizuka. And let's be serious, what vision is so detailed?

Kaname said sometimes he has visions of the future, and a girl had named the weapon Artemis. Did kaname saw who and how many were slauthered by Artemis?

Examples of kaname not seeing the future:

>>>When yuuki was viciously bitten by zero - the first time when zero allowed his nature to take control over him. yuuki was important for him, so it isn't normal for kaname to have visions which help him keeping her safe? but he had no vision of that.

>>>Ouri's death - if he would have had a vision that murder shouldn't have place.

Twins Curse: This is a very strong supocicion almost come to life on the forum! lol, but doesn´t have a solid foundation

Yes, is a theory - is still not confirmed by Hino. But the twin curse is another mistery let un-resolved by Hino. Maybe other don't give too much importance to it, but my guess is something more behind it. Time will tell who's right and who's not.

@maria kuran: if you wish to add further comments in a thread straight after you have posted then edited the first post and add in there, do not double post instead. double posting is against the rules of the forum, so please next time put your additional comments in the first post. Thank you.

___________________________

@aya-chan: wonderful post my dear and fully agree with you on the twin curse, and the evidence (which are facts) pointing away from kaname ever being involved in changeing the hunters list.

Bloodredhead wrote:@maria kuran: if you wish to add further comments in a thread straight after you have posted then edited the first post and add in there, do not double post instead. double posting is against the rules of the forum, so please next time put your additional comments in the first post. Thank you.

Yes sorry i forgot!!! I´m so sorry really

Aya-Chan thanks for your explanations, is that all I have in mind turns my and I have a good idea and I can not get her out of my mind to post it! Thank your post clarify a lot of things for me! Thanks Aya-sama! And I do believe in the twins curse, but it is unclear how, zero is so mad w/Kaname for that!

Thanks again to my dear friend Aya-sama!

rayatta wrote:

Knightmare wrote: i don't think Kaname's sin has anything to do with creating the twin curse, mostly cos i don't think its a literal curse. i think is more of a metaphor for the nature of hunters and twins have it worse as the strongest. the "curse" is because they have more vampiric dna, the stronger a hunter is, the more "vampiric dna" that have. so its all pretty much a result of what they are to begin with.

I never really assumed that the twin curse was an actual curse because VK hasn't dealt much with things of the like, and it doesn't seem completely plausible that Kaname would have "started" a twin curse. To me, it's more of a tangible name for the violent innate tendencies of vampires that have been passed onto hunters as a result of their consuming the Hooded Woman's blood

I can’t disagree completely with you. My first estimation of that curse was the same as you and I still can’t discard the option that this twins’ curse derive from the same “sin” i.e. the devouring of the hooded-woman as another side effect of their action.

But then again what could be Kaname’s “great sin”?

From the hints/references we have thus far this “sin” must blend the beneath elements or some of them at least>>

1. That Kaname is an ancestor > (thus far this info we don’t know how Sara use it.)
2. The twins’ curse seems updated through Takuma’s recollection.
3. Nagamichi’s cue that Kaname participated (or witnessed) in the greatest sin in PBs history (something though that contradicts with the theory of twins’ curse due to the time frame).
Now a crucial point is the time frame that Nagamichi puts on >> awhile before Shizuka went missing i.e. when Shizuka was still caged; or after she killed the Kiryuus and then disappeared?
Furthermore I have my reservations that Nagamichi and Sara would use such strong phrase as “great sin” if Kaname’s “action” had as result Kiryuus’ drama.
4. Sara’s phrase “the fruition of Kaname’s sin”.

Though is also possible that some from the above hints to be irrelevant and Hino thrown them to us as distraction haha …

Knightmare wrote: Sara says that Zero is the fruition of Kaname's "great sin". A statement like that echos Rido's claims that Shizuka planted the seed and Kaname raised it and Rido was going to reap the fruits. Kaname made no secret that he was cultivating Zero and Zero certainly resented it, but he got over it along the way. now he's back to hating on kaname and worse than before.

So Sara and Nagamichi are both talking about a great sin/crime and using the same similar grave wording. it all really hinges on whether Sara and Nagamichi were talking about the same thing.

It could be … though there are some similarities not only in the wording but also on the referred time that this “sin” took place (if it’s not the twin curse).

Nagamichi also asked Kaname about sacrificing others, which definitely means he's not talking about anything to do with Shizuka being freed (it occured before she was freed).

Yes but if we add the conversation between Aido-dono and Kaname (at Hanadagi’s castle) they were talking about the sanctity of the PBs hence that they shouldn’t be touched … the killing of PBs considered as a great taboo thus a great crime. So how this “greater crime” could be connected with the Kiryuus’ drama? I doubt that Nagamichi would use such characterisation “greater crime” to describe the Kiryuus “sacrifice”.
Could they were referring to Shizuka’s death? It’s the only death of a PB (that we know) that connects many elements >>
1. The time ( if it was Kaname who uncaged Shizuka and her lover which is the starting point for Shizuka’s death. That action should have happened prior Shizuka went missing)
2. The Kiryuus
3. The involvement of the death of a PB as result> Shizuka
4. And I think that it’s a “secret” that Kaname was the one who took Shizuka’s life … Kaname revealed it only to Yuuki thus maybe the vampire society was left with the impression that Zero was the responsible one but Asato maybe knew. So perhaps his words -that Aido-dono repeated- that Kaname won’t hesitate to sacrifice them could be concerned Shizuka’s “sacrifice”?

If so could be Zero the fruition of Kaname’s great sin i.e. the killing of Shizuka; in a way Kaname reaped Shizuka’s seed by killing her.

But then again could be Shizuka’s killing the greatest crime in PBs history??? This again seems contradictory. *sigh*

the curse is not being born twins because they consume each other or one before they are born. why would Zero lament the curse if it didn't actually affect them? the curse made Ichiru weak, but he survived. Zero would have to blame ichiru's feelings of inadequacy and luring Shizuka to their family (which she was already going to kill anyway) on Kaname. Its far too convoluted for Zero to make that leap. Zero takes it far too personally and talks about his family being destroyed because of Kaname's sin.

But the curse affected them … the starting point (at least that concerns the Kiryuus themselves) was Ichriou’s weak condition which resulted to his inner darkness. We do not know if Ichirou had a different stance how the events would have been unfold.

-why is kaname interest in twin hunters?
everyone is interested in them. they are rare creatures, and shizuka also liked that about the twins, she knew one would be strong, shizuka's interest in zero was about setting up someone strong enough to defy her.

True … but this can’t have a double readout? I mean IF there is an additional curse to the twins doesn’t this accumulate all the interest of the PBs (and not only) to use this extraordinary strength exactly cuz of this curse?

the danger of Shizuka killing Zero, i think the chances are pretty low. Shizuka would realise quickly that Zero was too valuable a piece to kill as a twin hunter. in fact, she bit Zero before she killed their parents. she said she bit Zero to curse him because of his sinful blood. ichiru says she kept Zero alive because ichiru asked it, but Shizuka never expressed any intentions of killing Zero when she attacked their parents and she assumes that he didn't really want his parents killed (in spite of his words) and says she was forced to kill them out of revenge.

Mmm… I beg to differ. Actually Shizuka at that time wasn’t thinking clearly and composed … she was berserk due to great pain. So we can’t exclude the possibility of killing Zero … a person in such state is unpredictable. Though she indeed bitten him first, prior she killed his parents maybe to inflict pain to them too.

However the fact that Shizuka turned Zero into vampire seems to be again a random or coincidental move in the beginning at least and not so calculated to gain a significant piece that would be used later on. Note that at that time Shizuka didn’t know about Rido’s involvement thus she thought her revenge was over that night (< this is also supported from Maria’s narration later to Zero) and from Shizuka’s wording >>

Shizuka: “I’m satisfied Ichirou … I’ve destroyed my nemesis, the Kiryus and I’ve obtained an amusing toy as well.” (chap. 20)

She thought that she had already destroyed the root of her misfortune (> the Kiryuus) and says an “amusing toy” which also hints that Shizuka didn’t have in mind to use Zero as a weapon i.e using his strength.

In fact Shizuka’s stimulation to turn Zero was due to the similarities he had – or Shizuka saw in Zero – with her lover >>

- Shizuka to Zero: “You are but a child yet your eyes pierced me with daggers … you are the second human to face me with such strong emotions.” (chap.20)

- Shizuka for her lover: “That human was different from all the other food I’d had. I decided to talk to him instead of devouring him. For the first time I was attached to someone and I did not hesitate to turn him into a vampire.” (bonus chapter volume 8 )

>> thus she decided to leave Zero alive and turned him in order to replace that bond she had with her lover. Which means for me that Shizuka could perfectly have killed Zero instead, something that Kaname or anyone else couldn’t predict or control again … i.e. his “weapon” to kill Rido might have been destroyed by Shizuka.

Rido changed the list so that Shizuka's lover was on the list, but how did he find out about it?

What you mean? How Rido found out about the eloping?

how did shizuka escape?

If Kaname had anything to do with that I may add another possible motivation for thought lol.
We do not know yet if there is something more behind Shizuka’s imprisonment and her engagement with Rido. However we have references from Haruka and Juuri that the senate longing to use PBs’ blood and we know that at least in the case of the former president of HA they did it. So could they have using Shizuka’s blood for their scheming as well? And we know that their main target was the Kurans, later on Kaname and Yuuki and in the long run the annihilation of the whole PB’s race. So what if Kaname helped Shizuka to escape putting a brake to their plans?

how did the Kiryuu's to that vampire end up being the ones to kill her lover? both the hunters and the council were working with Rido.

This is another “coincidence” yes … But again at least for Kaname I can’t see how he could influence the HA’s decision to pick the Kiryuus and furthermore to achieve what? To gain Zero eventually? This is something that we all agree that he couldn’t control.
But what if Rido or the senate deliberately wanted the Kriyuus to be the executers? Shizuka’s move to avenge the Kiryuus we can say that it could be more predictable … so I think if they were picked deliberately then the one who had the idea is more possible to want to destroy the Kiryuus rather than to gain a piece from the following events.
In addition we saw later that Rido knew more about this twins’ curse … more than what Asato or the former president knew. They also wonder why Rido kept Ichirou as his pet and they imprisoned Zero as a threat for Rido.
The senate/Asato had in mind the destruction for the hunters in the long run … so is it impossible that they wanted to be destroyed such a potential strong hunter i.e. Zero?
Another point that could add on the above speculation is that the senate and the HA wanted to kill Zero after Shizuka’s death (using this as a very good excuse to get rid of him?) plus the words of the former president >>
- that Kaien as well as the Kiryuus are sinners since birth?
- “one of the filthy beings who are also called vampires without fangs…” i.e. there are more beings like Kaien?

Anyway what I’m trying to say here is that this scheme that resulted to Kiryuus’ drama seems to me more as an attempt to destroy them entirely rather than to gain a weapon/piece i.e. Zero from this cuz many unpredictable factors had to play a role there in order Zero to end up as a powerful hunter and vampire= a weapon.

aya-chan wrote: Apparently some give too much credit to kaname visions. a vision is not detalied.

I agree … I’ll quote myself giving more examples which shown that Kaname can’t foresee the future like watching a movie haha …

He’s “foreseeing” things mostly based on his strategic mind and knowledge, i.e. he predicts the moves of his opponents. The indication for what I’m saying is that he left Shizuka alive in order for Zero to drink from her and save himself from falling into a level-e. But since Zero arrived late and Ichirou had already devoured Shizuka’s leftovers he had to change course and give his blood to Zero.

Another indication is that he had to change or adjust his plans when we learnt that when he was young (and had already retrieved his memory) he was thinking that he might have to turn Yuuki again into a human when her mother’s spell would break. But something made him to change plans again and proceed with his original plan.

These are two strong indications that Kaname can’t foresee the developments in a “crystal ball” haha …

Twins Curse: I believe in this possibility, reasons:
1-fit fully with Kaname's personality, and the words he said to Yuki, about losing her life into something useless.
2-If affection to zero, because if this curse would not have existed, Ichiru be alive, had not gone w/ Shizuka (this last is my opinion) the two would be my strong and powerful vampire hunters. But because of the curse, the family of zero was affected, always sick Ichiru and Zero's parents thought that ichiru not become like Zero, and this would rather retain zero (Zero As caring Ichiru much), and end the curse came true, Zero end up devour ichiru life. Then this curse if I ruin zero´s life, and we could add more guilt to Kaname, if it was him who opened the cage where it was Shizuka. This could be "a part" of the great sin, because I think there's something bigger behind this!

Maria Kuran wrote:Twins Curse: I believe in this possibility, reasons:
1-fit fully with Kaname's personality, and the words he said to Yuki, about losing her life into something useless.
2-If affection to zero, because if this curse would not have existed, Ichiru be alive, had not gone w/ Shizuka (this last is my opinion) the two would be my strong and powerful vampire hunters. But because of the curse, the family of zero was affected, always sick Ichiru and Zero's parents thought that ichiru not become like Zero, and this would rather retain zero (Zero As caring Ichiru much), and end the curse came true, Zero end up devour ichiru life. Then this curse if I ruin zero´s life, and we could add more guilt to Kaname, if it was him who opened the cage where it was Shizuka. This could be "a part" of the great sin, because I think there's something bigger behind this!

It wasn't Kaname who opened it...since Kaname is not evil...he proved it many times,he's diferent at this way from Rido and Sarah,he have mercy for another person,even if it's human...since he's the ancestor of the vampires,he had seen a lot of battles and wars,that's why he treasures life!

lililovelilica wrote:

Maria Kuran wrote:Twins Curse: I believe in this possibility, reasons:
1-fit fully with Kaname's personality, and the words he said to Yuki, about losing her life into something useless.
2-If affection to zero, because if this curse would not have existed, Ichiru be alive, had not gone w/ Shizuka (this last is my opinion) the two would be my strong and powerful vampire hunters. But because of the curse, the family of zero was affected, always sick Ichiru and Zero's parents thought that ichiru not become like Zero, and this would rather retain zero (Zero As caring Ichiru much), and end the curse came true, Zero end up devour ichiru life. Then this curse if I ruin zero´s life, and we could add more guilt to Kaname, if it was him who opened the cage where it was Shizuka. This could be "a part" of the great sin, because I think there's something bigger behind this!

It wasn't Kaname who opened it...since Kaname is not evil...he proved it many times,he's diferent at this way from Rido and Sarah,he have mercy for another person,even if it's human...since he's the ancestor of the vampires,he had seen a lot of battles and wars,that's why he treasures life!

yes maybe...but we don´t not yet...

Maria Kuran wrote:

lililovelilica wrote:

Maria Kuran wrote:Twins Curse: I believe in this possibility, reasons:
1-fit fully with Kaname's personality, and the words he said to Yuki, about losing her life into something useless.
2-If affection to zero, because if this curse would not have existed, Ichiru be alive, had not gone w/ Shizuka (this last is my opinion) the two would be my strong and powerful vampire hunters. But because of the curse, the family of zero was affected, always sick Ichiru and Zero's parents thought that ichiru not become like Zero, and this would rather retain zero (Zero As caring Ichiru much), and end the curse came true, Zero end up devour ichiru life. Then this curse if I ruin zero´s life, and we could add more guilt to Kaname, if it was him who opened the cage where it was Shizuka. This could be "a part" of the great sin, because I think there's something bigger behind this!

It wasn't Kaname who opened it...since Kaname is not evil...he proved it many times,he's diferent at this way from Rido and Sarah,he have mercy for another person,even if it's human...since he's the ancestor of the vampires,he had seen a lot of battles and wars,that's why he treasures life!

yes maybe...but we don´t not yet...

Maybe it's the person who's behind Sara...the White King begins to do his move at the chess board by releasing shizuka and now the check mate by making Sara go to the Cross Gakuen

lililovelilica wrote:

Maria Kuran wrote:

lililovelilica wrote:
It wasn't Kaname who opened it...since Kaname is not evil...he proved it many times,he's diferent at this way from Rido and Sarah,he have mercy for another person,even if it's human...since he's the ancestor of the vampires,he had seen a lot of battles and wars,that's why he treasures life!

yes maybe...but we don´t not yet...

Maybe it's the person who's behind Sara...the White King begins to do his move at the chess board by releasing shizuka and now the check mate by making Sara go to the Cross Gakuen

I do not think there is someone behind Sara, I think Sara is the white piece and she is doing and their movements ... That little !!! i hope kaname kill´s you

Maria Kuran wrote:

lililovelilica wrote:

Maria Kuran wrote:

yes maybe...but we don´t not yet...

Maybe it's the person who's behind Sara...the White King begins to do his move at the chess board by releasing shizuka and now the check mate by making Sara go to the Cross Gakuen

I do not think there is someone behind Sara, I think Sara is the white piece and she is doing and their movements ... That little !!! i hope kaname kill´s you

I think you didn't give more attention to the manga...Kaname said that there are more pieces that he has to finish with...and that he was just beggining with the senade.

lililovelilica wrote:

Maria Kuran wrote:

lililovelilica wrote:
Maybe it's the person who's behind Sara...the White King begins to do his move at the chess board by releasing shizuka and now the check mate by making Sara go to the Cross Gakuen

I do not think there is someone behind Sara, I think Sara is the white piece and she is doing and their movements ... That little !!! i hope kaname kill´s you

I think you didn't give more attention to the manga...Kaname said that there are more pieces that he has to finish with...and that he was just beggining with the senade.

well, if that´s the case, i just want that kaname doesn´t get hurt!!! i really love him!!!!

Maria Kuran wrote:

lililovelilica wrote:

Maria Kuran wrote:

I do not think there is someone behind Sara, I think Sara is the white piece and she is doing and their movements ... That little !!! i hope kaname kill´s you

I think you didn't give more attention to the manga...Kaname said that there are more pieces that he has to finish with...and that he was just beggining with the senade.

well, if that´s the case, i just want that kaname doesn´t get hurt!!! i really love him!!!!

He won't...Kaname's the most powerfull vampires...he's the ancestor of all vampires...maybe he's 10.000 years old...so he's not stupid to die that easily.
but if Sara died i would laugh so much...after all that she said about turning into the QUEEN of vampires and are crushed by Kaname like a bug...so funny.

lililovelilica wrote:

Maria Kuran wrote:

lililovelilica wrote:
I think you didn't give more attention to the manga...Kaname said that there are more pieces that he has to finish with...and that he was just beggining with the senade.

well, if that´s the case, i just want that kaname doesn´t get hurt!!! i really love him!!!!

He won't...Kaname's the most powerfull vampires...he's the ancestor of all vampires...maybe he's 10.000 years old...so he's not stupid to die that easily.
but if Sara died i would laugh so much...after all that she said about turning into the QUEEN of vampires and are crushed by Kaname like a bug...so funny.

LOL if she's scared, but still keep trying, knowing that she maybe is going to die! That silly! You can not go against the King! Kaname is the best you have to know it already !

Maria Kuran wrote:

lililovelilica wrote:

Maria Kuran wrote:
well, if that´s the case, i just want that kaname doesn´t get hurt!!! i really love him!!!!

He won't...Kaname's the most powerfull vampires...he's the ancestor of all vampires...maybe he's 10.000 years old...so he's not stupid to die that easily.
but if Sara died i would laugh so much...after all that she said about turning into the QUEEN of vampires and are crushed by Kaname like a bug...so funny.

LOL if she's scared, but still keep trying, knowing that she maybe is going to die! That silly! You can not go against the King! Kaname is the best you have to know it already !

Maybe Sarais REALLY scared after all?because she's hiding from Kaname in the Cross Gakuen and asking for Yuuki's protection,and i don't believe Yuuki said that she would protect SAra...
then...if Kaname went to kill Sara,Yuuki would really protect Sara,who is inside the school?

lililovelilica wrote:

Maria Kuran wrote:

lililovelilica wrote:
He won't...Kaname's the most powerfull vampires...he's the ancestor of all vampires...maybe he's 10.000 years old...so he's not stupid to die that easily.
but if Sara died i would laugh so much...after all that she said about turning into the QUEEN of vampires and are crushed by Kaname like a bug...so funny.

LOL if she's scared, but still keep trying, knowing that she maybe is going to die! That silly! You can not go against the King! Kaname is the best you have to know it already !

Maybe Sarais REALLY scared after all?because she's hiding from Kaname in the Cross Gakuen and asking for Yuuki's protection,and i don't believe Yuuki said that she would protect SAra...
then...if Kaname went to kill Sara,Yuuki would really protect Sara,who is inside the school?

No, Yuki said that just to win their "trust" but she will not defend anyone, least that


.... If Kaname, wants to kill her, will not see anyone able to stop him ......

Maria Kuran wrote:

lililovelilica wrote:

Maria Kuran wrote:

LOL if she's scared, but still keep trying, knowing that she maybe is going to die! That silly! You can not go against the King! Kaname is the best you have to know it already !

Maybe Sarais REALLY scared after all?because she's hiding from Kaname in the Cross Gakuen and asking for Yuuki's protection,and i don't believe Yuuki said that she would protect SAra...
then...if Kaname went to kill Sara,Yuuki would really protect Sara,who is inside the school?

No, Yuki said that just to win their "trust" but she will not defend anyone, least that


.... If Kaname, wants to kill her, will not see anyone able to stop him ......

well...even if Yuuki doesn't like Sara,her sense of Justice is very high so i think she would first like to talk with both sides and think if she would like to see Kaname killing Sara...after all Yuuki is just like her Mother Juuri^^

lililovelilica wrote:

Maria Kuran wrote:

lililovelilica wrote:
Maybe Sarais REALLY scared after all?because she's hiding from Kaname in the Cross Gakuen and asking for Yuuki's protection,and i don't believe Yuuki said that she would protect SAra...
then...if Kaname went to kill Sara,Yuuki would really protect Sara,who is inside the school?

No, Yuki said that just to win their "trust" but she will not defend anyone, least that


.... If Kaname, wants to kill her, will not see anyone able to stop him ......

well...even if Yuuki doesn't like Sara,her sense of Justice is very high so i think she would first like to talk with both sides and think if she would like to see Kaname killing Sara...after all Yuuki is just like her Mother Juuri^^

yes you are right in that one!!! So...I hope Kaname tell all the true behind him!!! please, Kaname is the button that unlocks the mystery that is around Vampire Knight now!!!!

Maria Kuran wrote:

lililovelilica wrote:

Maria Kuran wrote:

No, Yuki said that just to win their "trust" but she will not defend anyone, least that


.... If Kaname, wants to kill her, will not see anyone able to stop him ......

well...even if Yuuki doesn't like Sara,her sense of Justice is very high so i think she would first like to talk with both sides and think if she would like to see Kaname killing Sara...after all Yuuki is just like her Mother Juuri^^

yes you are right in that one!!! So...I hope Kaname tell all the true behind him!!! please, Kaname is the button that unlocks the mystery that is around Vampire Knight now!!!!

You're forgetting Sara...it seems she's also have many secrets so she could be the key too!?

lililovelilica wrote:

Maria Kuran wrote:

lililovelilica wrote:
well...even if Yuuki doesn't like Sara,her sense of Justice is very high so i think she would first like to talk with both sides and think if she would like to see Kaname killing Sara...after all Yuuki is just like her Mother Juuri^^

yes you are right in that one!!! So...I hope Kaname tell all the true behind him!!! please, Kaname is the button that unlocks the mystery that is around Vampire Knight now!!!!

You're forgetting Sara...it seems she's also have many secrets so she could be the key too!?

But the are more importants Kaname´s secrets!!!

Maria Kuran wrote:

lililovelilica wrote:

Maria Kuran wrote:


yes you are right in that one!!! So...I hope Kaname tell all the true behind him!!! please, Kaname is the button that unlocks the mystery that is around Vampire Knight now!!!!

You're forgetting Sara...it seems she's also have many secrets so she could be the key too!?

But the are more importants Kaname´s secrets!!!

YEAH
you have a point
Kaname's secrets have been always the most mysterious thing in this manga
so what if we don't get to see Kaname saying everything next chapter,what if he only go away from Yuuki again?

lililovelilica wrote:

Maria Kuran wrote:

lililovelilica wrote:
You're forgetting Sara...it seems she's also have many secrets so she could be the key too!?

But the are more importants Kaname´s secrets!!!

YEAH
you have a point
Kaname's secrets have been always the most mysterious thing in this manga
so what if we don't get to see Kaname saying everything next chapter,what if he only go away from Yuuki again?

well the answer to that is simple!!! I will died!!! Kaname you have to tell me everything or i would die!!!