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    Vampire Knight 87 FULL RAWS AND TRANSLATION

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    nina
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    Vampire Knight 87 FULL RAWS AND TRANSLATION

    Post by nina on Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:38 am

    http://tieba.baidu.com/p/1935373666

    translation here: http://vampire-knight.livejournal.com/1013045.html





    "... I want to fall down with you to the very farthest depths ... taint me too Kaname"



    Spoiler:

    *wants to sneak under these bed sheets*

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    Re: Vampire Knight 87 FULL RAWS AND TRANSLATION

    Post by kanachanimmortal on Sun Oct 21, 2012 11:24 am

    hino,oh hino.
    if you wanted to develop zeki,you should have done it before na.why developing it suddenly?
    well this chapter,i don't know what to say.i guess ........ah........forget it. Crying or Very sad

    they were kissing in front of kaname.

    yuuki loves zero romantically and here is the proof.i don't think any yume can counterfeit it here.
    i am glad kaname left her.now i really want him to die.please kaname die instead of seeing the girl who you loved more than your heart betraying you.


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    Re: Vampire Knight 87 FULL RAWS AND TRANSLATION

    Post by lalaland on Sun Oct 21, 2012 11:29 am

    THANK YOU FOR PUTTING THE LINK UP!
    MEANS A LOT TO US, THANKS.

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    Re: Vampire Knight 87 FULL RAWS AND TRANSLATION

    Post by lalaland on Sun Oct 21, 2012 11:37 am

    now, i may be completely wrong with this but if you look at the last page of the chapter when Kaname comes, is it just me or does it say that the next issue is on the 1st of the 11th?
    but then there is a 11th next to a 24th. i'm kinda confused.....

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    Re: Vampire Knight 87 FULL RAWS AND TRANSLATION

    Post by aya-chan on Sun Oct 21, 2012 11:39 am

    nina wrote:http://tieba.baidu.com/p/1935373666

    thank you stalker-san. I am going to take a look

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    Re: Vampire Knight 87 FULL RAWS AND TRANSLATION

    Post by juliet on Sun Oct 21, 2012 12:10 pm

    thank you want a translation so badly now!






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    Re: Vampire Knight 87 FULL RAWS AND TRANSLATION

    Post by Fine of Fate on Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:05 pm

    Hmm, I don't think it was a (completely) mutual almost kiss. From the looks of it Zero and Yuuki was recalling their shared past and then Zero leaned down to kiss her before Kaname appeared. What do you think?

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    Re: Vampire Knight 87 FULL RAWS AND TRANSLATION

    Post by ButterflyWingsx on Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:41 pm

    Hmmm...interesting. Why did Kaname appear right after the kiss? Things are about to go down..or maybe it was a coincident. Why is Yuuki taking blood tablets? Wasn't Zero's blood supposed to sate her? o.O


    Zero acted like Kaname in this chapter and took charge trying to woe Yuuki. Oh Kaname, whatever will you do? I can't wait for ch 88!

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    Re: Vampire Knight 87 FULL RAWS AND TRANSLATION

    Post by nina on Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:01 pm

    I have no time at the moment … just a few tips.

    1. The Chinese scanlation team “warns” the readers to read first the chapter before jump to conclusions from the pix … the content is important.

    2. The ball is a set up from Yuuki and Isaya in order to lure Kaname out … as it happened eventually.

    @ButterflyWingsx you are right in your comment about the satiety issue ^^ there are more interesting things there ^^ … we just have to wait for the translation. cheers

    Ps.*sigh* I knew it that Kaname’s arrival was the last page! *sigh, sigh, sigh*





    "... I want to fall down with you to the very farthest depths ... taint me too Kaname"



    Spoiler:

    *wants to sneak under these bed sheets*

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    Re: Vampire Knight 87 FULL RAWS AND TRANSLATION

    Post by juliet on Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:36 pm

    And the necessary translation is out:

    http://vampire-knight.livejournal.com/1013045.html

    thank you Senbyafanatic for fast results... cheers!!!






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    Re: Vampire Knight 87 FULL RAWS AND TRANSLATION

    Post by nina on Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:07 pm

    juliet wrote:And the necessary translation is out:

    http://vampire-knight.livejournal.com/1013045.html

    thank you Senbyafanatic for fast results... cheers!!!

    Thanks Jul for the link and many-many thanks to Senby for the speedy translation as always! cheers





    "... I want to fall down with you to the very farthest depths ... taint me too Kaname"



    Spoiler:

    *wants to sneak under these bed sheets*

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    Re: Vampire Knight 87 FULL RAWS AND TRANSLATION

    Post by XxContradictionsxX on Sun Oct 21, 2012 4:11 pm

    When Zero leaned down, Yuuki is standing on her tippy toes to kiss him back. So I think the feelings mutual.

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    Re: Vampire Knight 87 FULL RAWS AND TRANSLATION

    Post by Fine of Fate on Sun Oct 21, 2012 4:42 pm

    Just for the sake of argumentation Zero's arm was around Yuuki's waist when she was on her toes so it might be possible that he was lifting her. Any ideas?

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    Re: Vampire Knight 87 FULL RAWS AND TRANSLATION

    Post by juliet on Sun Oct 21, 2012 6:08 pm

    Ι do think that she reconsiders her feelings for him, like she thinks that they hide their feelings for a long time now and they had always wanted to be close...both of them. And that part can also refer to the part where Yuuki had said in the first arc that she shall be running away from him to give him a reason to live as she saw his hate to be the driven force, his motivation to live.
    So it seems that none of these are necessary now, no more acting and drama between them, the masks are falling...

    so the outcome can be a love-caring sensation over him, yes in tender way. That's the feeling that i am getting, the period is too short to say that she completely shifted feelings for Kaname.

    She recognizes that Zero has changed his thoughts and his ideas because right now he is indeed dancing with a pureblood, the Zero she had left behind would have never done that based on his traumatic injuries.

    So things are very blur cause she see the change in him and that's a progression about her and him; now if they are to come together, over a chapter, does not make completely sense, since in the previous chapter her feelings were again different saying to him that she belongs to Kaname.

    If we fall into the logic that she shifts from one man to the other in a few panels, then apparently this scene also means nothing: In the next chapter she can totally reverse her feelings (if taken in a romantic way) and declare new ones under Kaname's spell. Is this the way it should be seen? I prefer the more gentle-stable approach.

    IMO > gives out the romantic vibe as well but, there is always a but, Yuuki's feelings at this point can be nothing but romantic. Can anyone cross fingers and say that they are? 100% percent? like in Kaname's case?






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    Re: Vampire Knight 87 FULL RAWS AND TRANSLATION

    Post by Fine of Fate on Sun Oct 21, 2012 8:31 pm

    I'm just a bit confused now 'cause last chapter Yuuki technically friendzoned Zero, but now it was all mushy. So was it just one sided Zero or was it Zero-Yuki this chap?

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    Re: Vampire Knight 87 FULL RAWS AND TRANSLATION

    Post by Youweremysafeplace* on Sun Oct 21, 2012 8:31 pm

    Thank you so MUCH sLo_valentine2
    This chapter made me SOOO HAPPY
    I loved when zero and yuki were dancing together
    And then the memories came in, with the kiss at he end
    So happy.

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    Re: Vampire Knight 87 FULL RAWS AND TRANSLATION

    Post by Duskola on Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:22 pm

    Thanks for the links, @nina.

    I couldn't download all the pages but I've already read the translations and some of the topic (I couldn't wait).

    Now I'm a bit confused, sad and disappointed in Yuuki, and I understand when some of you talked about "if you had been reading chapter by chapter from the beginning, you would have known why we were disappointed by her behaviour".

    Now I am. Very much.


    I'm just a bit confused now 'cause last chapter Yuuki technically friendzoned Zero, but now it was all mushy.

    Exactly.



    EDIT: sorry, I've read @juliet post only now, so I want to comment a bit.

    juliet wrote:
    so the outcome can be a love-caring sensation over him, yes in tender way. That's the feeling that i am getting, the period is too short to say that she completely shifted feelings for Kaname.

    She recognizes that Zero has changed his thoughts and his ideas because right now he is indeed dancing with a pureblood, the Zero she had left behind would have never done that based on his traumatic injuries.

    So things are very blur cause she see the change in him and that's a progression about her and him; now if they are to come together, over a chapter, does not make completely sense, since in the previous chapter her feelings were again different saying to him that she belongs to Kaname.

    If we fall into the logic that she shifts from one man to the other in a few panels, then apparently this scene also means nothing: In the next chapter she can totally reverse her feelings (if taken in a romantic way) and declare new ones under Kaname's spell. Is this the way it should be seen? I prefer the more gentle-stable approach.



    I don't think she shifted her feelings for Kaname, I think (or want to think) that this scene is meant to let us see that finally Zero's character has developed and that he has accepted PB, by accepting Yuuki's PB's side. That is why Yuuki says that the Zero she knew would have never danced with a PB. So, have we to think that she turned her back to Zero only because Zero hated PB? Have we to think that she went to Kaname only because she had no other choice? I don't know, but if this is the case, well, she would be only a weak girl who takes no responsibilites at all. Why friendzoning Zero a chapter ago saying she BELONGS to Kaname? Then there really was some forcing in that BELONG? Then Kaname was the real second choice, and not Zero? Then "the boy she wants to cherish" is Zero, not Kaname? Then, we're going to see the real coup de théatre, when we discover finally that she lied to everyone, to Kaname AND to herself, BUT she finally loves Zero?

    Please.

    I don't know, but this is the first time we see something really romantic happen between those two. I don't know how to interpret this all, and I don't know if there really is something to interpret. I still think that it's going to happen something big, as we see arriving a lot of people involved (like Rima and some other hooded vampires). I find the ball-masquerade thing a bit stupid, but that's my personal taste.

    I don't want to think, but I'm not objective at all as a Yume, that after 86 chapters, Hino wants to make Yuuki's feelings change in two panels, so I'm with you, juliet, when you say that we may see something completely different in next chapter, too (well, who could have expected this development?).

    I also think that Isaya plotted something together with Kaname. But what?

    We shall see.

    juliet wrote:IMO > gives out the romantic vibe as well but, there is always a but, Yuuki's feelings at this point can be nothing but romantic. Can anyone cross fingers and say that they are? 100% percent? like in Kaname's case?

    I don't know if I understood your question, if you mean: "Can we really say from these few panels if Yuuki's feelings are 100% romantic" I would say "No". If you mean: "Can we really say from these few panels that they are equal to those she feels from Kaname", I would say "No", again. Because we have strong words and acts from her for much more than a few panels towards Kaname, and a simple kiss isn't enough to say she turned her love to Zero. But gosh, who is the "boy she cherishes" she's talking about in the end? Is it possible that all we Yume always saw was a lie from the beginning? Is it possible that "the boy she cherishes" is Zero, but she feels some duty towards Kaname she can't be free from? Is it possible that Zekis are right when they say Kaname manipulated everything and Yuuki is not able to understand her true feelings? Oh my. My heart is torn to pieces. Poor Kaname-sama.

    EDIT AGAIN: Well, my personal interpretation. I think that if we connect chapter 86 to chapter 87, the only meaning of "the boy she cherishes" can be this boy is Kaname, and she is somehow complaining something she can't control, that she feels towards Zero. The kiss is the "end like this" she's talking about, and this sentence is very similar to the one she thinks when she takes blood from Zero. So we have a confused Yuuki again. She loves Kaname, but she wants Zero, too. In what way? Sob. We came back to the beginning, like snakes and ladders.

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    Re: Vampire Knight 87 FULL RAWS AND TRANSLATION

    Post by Knightmare on Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:35 am

    Duskola wrote:

    I'm just a bit confused now 'cause last chapter Yuuki technically friendzoned Zero, but now it was all mushy.

    Exactly.
    Well it all boils down to personal interpretation of the previous chapter. For me, this fits perfectly in line. I didn't see her as friendzoning him, I saw her as pointing out they couldn't work, I won't go into the details/distinctions as I'm sure it was heavily debated last chapter, but you'll appreciate it might depend on your point of view.

    The same with the "belong to Kaname" statement. I saw this as reiteration of a fact that originated in chapter 46, that "Yuuki knows where she belongs". I didn't see this is as a love statement, Yuuki has made plenty of clear ones in the past, but they have been far more obtuse and we must focus on what she says she wants and doesn't want for clarity. Not to say that Yuuki doesn't love Kaname, but its not the foremost barrier between them, because Yuuki already showed she's capable of love for 2 men, but the one she is supposed to be with is obvious to her.

    Yuuki also reiterates in this chapter that its not just about her why they are not together, but also "Zero hates vampires". Yuuki summed up in her statement to Isaya why she doesn't believe they can't be "Zero is a hunter, and I’m a pureblood." Its seems like a really overblown barrier in her mindset, but I think 80% resides in how she thinks Zero hates vampires, so once that hurdle is passed, the last 20% is about their society/places in the world/reality.


    If we fall into the logic that she shifts from one man to the other in a few panels, then apparently this scene also means nothing:
    Yuuki's feelings are not flipflopping between Zero and Kaname, she's acknowledged since ch47 that she had to lock her feelings for Zero in her heart, in ch49 Kaname confirmed he knew they were both in her heart and in ch51 Yuuki confirmed she spent a year trying to sever the link to Zero in her heart (for a multitude of reasons).

    This is not Yuuki wavering and shifting her feeling between men, its Yuuki following her heart and revealing to the readers more of what is hidden in there.


    Have we to think that she went to Kaname only because she had no other choice? I don't know, but if this is the case, well, she would be only a weak girl who takes no responsibilites at all. Why friendzoning Zero a chapter ago saying she BELONGS to Kaname? Then there really was some forcing in that BELONG? Then Kaname was the real second choice, and not Zero? Then "the boy she wants to cherish" is Zero, not Kaname? Then, we're going to see the real coup de théatre, when we discover finally that she lied to everyone, to Kaname AND to herself, BUT she finally loves Zero?
    Yuuki has never been forced to choose between Zero and Kaname, Zero wasn't and still isn't an option. She chose to be with Kaname, she was not forced to be with him, but her other option was to remain alone. Yuuki feared being alone and she only contemplated it because she hated herself for inflicting pain upon Kaname by continuing to have her heart split with another man. In that choice, there was always a desire to be with Kaname.

    Basically, it been canon that she loves 2 men since ch51.


    EDIT AGAIN: Well, my personal interpretation. I think that if we connect chapter 86 to chapter 87, the only meaning of "the boy she cherishes" can be this boy is Kaname, and she is somehow complaining something she can't control, that she feels towards Zero. The kiss is the "end like this" she's talking about, and this sentence is very similar to the one she thinks when she takes blood from Zero. So we have a confused Yuuki again. She loves Kaname, but she wants Zero, too. In what way? Sob. We came back to the beginning, like snakes and ladders.

    I don't think there is room for such interpretation (in the bold).
    "end up like this" is the panel with the forbidden bite and Zero's angry eyes, the "the boy she cherishes" part is the panel of Zero moving in for the kiss and the " feelings for him are real" is the kiss page and the "but i..." is kaname's face at the end.

    so, I think the "end up like this" is the whole vampire/hunter/pureblood complicated relationship mess they are in.

    i loved this chapter, yuuki was super cute pretending to be a stranger to Zero. yuuki and zero looked so grown up compared to their previous selves from the dance in ch17. a masked ball was lovely. loved that isaya finally decided to do something, I expect this means he's going to die next lol. i wish they had told us how many purebloods were left and who they were. and it was most awesome to see a culmination of the promised kiss from ch60. zero could have saved a lot of time if he'd just done it then. lol.

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    Re: Vampire Knight 87 FULL RAWS AND TRANSLATION

    Post by nausica on Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:48 am

    I do feel that the Zeki kiss-like scene is more like a plot device planned by Isaya to lure Kaname out. Isaya told Yuuki that all of them were planning a dangerous trap for Kaname in that masquerade. Kaname is not a dumb guy or something. He is good in strategy. How can he easily fallen into their trap and get caught? But, Kaname has a known weak point. He can easily get extremely jealous if any guy attempts to approach his loved one, Yuuki. See how Kaname almost tried to kill a newbie student who wanted to advance to Yuuki in the side story of volume 15. Did Zero and Yuuki actually kiss in this chapter? If we exclude the missing part of their important lip-to-lip scene, Yuuki's tip-toeing and Zero's head leaning towards her do look like a "kiss" scene from distance, but will that be how Kaname sees from our our angle? I will love to know what will Kaname do in next chapter. ooooh

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    Re: Vampire Knight 87 FULL RAWS AND TRANSLATION

    Post by juliet on Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:36 am

    If we exclude the missing part of their important lip-to-lip scene, Yuuki's tip-toeing and Zero's head leaning towards her do look like a "kiss" scene from distance, but will that be how Kaname sees from our our angle? I will love to know what will Kaname do in next chapter.

    Perhaps, the actual kiss...kiss..is not shown to us just from the distance...so why? perhaps its just the angle that Hino used in order to bring Kaname into the game, I mean to introduce Kaname's angle >

    the whole ball was a setup as Isaya says> again i want to ask what is the lure or the bait? because the script does not give a satisfactory answer. If we ignore Isaya who could be reached at any time, why should Kaname appear?

    are there more purebloods attending the ball? and why weren't they introduced so our question could be solved? this does not make sense unless the bait is indeed a zeki interaction that make Kaname appear?

    I also think that Isaya plotted something together with Kaname. But what?

    or could it be the other way around? Isaya introducing the ball, after Kaname's demand and just hides it, in order to achieve, next step to Kaname's plan?

    Apparently, this can be seen from multiple angles because the motivation for Kaname to appear and fall into the trap is missing at least at this chapter, apparently we shall have an answer (whatever that can be to next)....

    So, have we to think that she turned her back to Zero only because Zero hated PB? Have we to think that she went to Kaname only because she had no other choice? I don't know, but if this is the case, well, she would be only a weak girl who takes no responsibilites at all.

    Yuuki summed up in her statement to Isaya why she doesn't believe they can't be "Zero is a hunter, and I’m a pureblood." Its seems like a really overblown barrier in her mindset, but I think 80% resides in how she thinks Zero hates vampires, so once that hurdle is passed, the last 20% is about their society/places in the world/reality.Yuuki has never been forced to choose between Zero and Kaname, Zero wasn't and still isn't an option. She chose to be with Kaname, she was not forced to be with him, but her other option was to remain alone. Yuuki feared being alone and she only contemplated it because she hated herself for inflicting pain upon Kaname by continuing to have her heart split with another man. In that choice, there was always a desire to be with Kaname.

    No it's not like that, because she had accepted Kaname's invitation to be a monster just like him, at another ball, free of charge when she was still a human, and while she was still a human and Zero was there as an option. So what she faced afterwards > Zero's hate and bla..bla.. was the consequences of her already pre-made choice.

    She had already choose to face that path. Unless in the above scene she does not have feelings for Zero but developed in the continuation. Where?

    When she confesses to Kaname that she had been in love with her own brother? Was she thinking about another option at that time?

    Or later at the mansion she can discover feelings lingering there but then since then many new scenes are added. I want to ask why?

    Example at the academy, when Zero talks about his parent's death and his family's destruction and Yuuki runs when she sees Kaname to ask if he came to take her away?

    M, or when some chapters ago to Kaname that she preferred to be killed by him? asking the reason that he left her?

    I am not against your explanation, but locking her feelings about Zero is another thing, totally ignoring them and making such declarations as above another.

    If we are to take her lines and her decisions seriously it is not just Zero and his beliefs, but also Yuuki and her feelings about Kaname (she had brainwashed him) from the start of VK that did not allow to Zero to come forward with his own feelings. So she stopped him a pureblood as you say, but didn't she stop him as human also?

    Was it just the pureblood thing, being human and still loving Kaname, did that inserted "STOP" to Zero? so why are we placing all the context on the "pureblood thing", many feelings and decision were there before any change to happen...

    This is not Yuuki wavering and shifting her feeling between men, its Yuuki following her heart and revealing to the readers more of what is hidden in there.

    okay, let me see that point also, since as she says she wants to cherish him. And then what? Taking all the above into consideration or her desire to consume Kaname as she was saying, again how much gravity can you place upon her words, despite her statements being true?

    Because now it's the other way around > she can be with Zero, the door opens but she can not be with Kaname > will that be a free choice again? how?

    Kaname pushed her away when she was ready to give herself to him, as Rido said "now that you have a flower blooming only for you", or something like that, Kaname rejected her love for his own multi-purpose reasons. How much free space does that live to Zeki to breath? or to exist, since lines with heavier gravity and meaning are overviewed?

    so what goes around comes around...using your logic, that now the second choice seems more appealing because there is not a first one. But if the first choice became available again would she go with a chunk of her heart or the rest of it?

    Saying all that above, even this kiss scene falls into "let's stop Kaname" context. Can you place faith in there? and why> here she had feelings, strong feelings about Kaname since chapter 1, declaring them to Zero and to herself, to Kaname, to us...

    not a hidden part, a very obvious part > let me accept that Yuuki has feelings for both with Kaname being the dominant figure in her life, since she fall in love with him first and understanding later on that she developed feelings for Zero too, choosing to supress them to stand up to her decisions and not to hurt Kaname any further. So what are we left with? A girl that says "Oh i love Kaname, but i also want to a taste of Zero in my life..". It does not make sense for the development also.

    Right and who can support such a character? Where is the development in her feelings? And how will under these views will she save Kaname or stop him?

    She still plays a pawn? isn't that what Kaname had wanted? to push her to Zero?

    There are many parameters affected, not just the fandom's faith that is crushing here, the validity of the script, the serious intentions of the heroine but also the continuation. Personally i think that Hino can not and should not hold up the same attitude with thirty chapters ago > it's useless, as it adds up nothing to the script but nullifies the points and the progress that Yuuki made so far and thus no she can not be taken serious with a line here, that condemns her, does not add up to her profile.

    Many readers want to see Zeki, still there is more in this script than Zeki, the drive force should be the heroine herself > do you see a drive force here where we see Yuuki in the same old position with thirty chapters ago? only now being unable to be with the rest of her heart, being with the "chunk" actually? And then we are talking about validity in what?

    the half of the script is on the air because apparently there is no sense in making all of this course in order to go from point A to point A, just from where she started. Am i the only one seeing the gaps that the "I want them both" theory generates? and the damage she does to both characters and to the script?

    Hino has to find an amazing good resolution that could now convince the half of the fandom why Yuuki's declaration for Kaname...(what i mentioned) could be normally and humanly justified, backup up and so...If she does not justify Yume, she can not persuade for a Zeki, because with the same light both fandoms are to be seen.

    Or she burns her to the stakes. And opens the door of great doubt...that can be attributed to the fact that now Kaname is a forbidden area and she has nowhere to go from there. So she is far more inclined to see Zero as an option again.

    Or she is going to attribute again friendly, supportive feelings to Yuuki for Zero, that at least shall support her actions thus far (much easier to go), toying with fandoms as she usually does.

    Okay i think that i well exposed my points and views about the whole chapter. Now i want to see if the "ball" is a part of Kaname's part, thus the appearance or anything else around.






    Last edited by juliet on Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:48 am; edited 1 time in total






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    Re: Vampire Knight 87 FULL RAWS AND TRANSLATION

    Post by kanachanimmortal on Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:39 am

    ah...standing on a toe thing is considered to be a true love i guess.i suggest something,take that artemis and kill kaname already.i don't want poor guy to be with that cheap person at all.

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    Re: Vampire Knight 87 FULL RAWS AND TRANSLATION

    Post by juliet on Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:51 am

    lucykaede wrote:ah...standing on a toe thing is considered to be a true love i guess.i suggest something,take that artemis and kill kaname already.i don't want poor guy to be with that cheap person at all.

    but why? don't you see that if the script goes light with yume, is going as a feather for Zeki? and what where the lines and quotes that yuuki was saying a chapter ago? weren't they love? to nullify such gravity, you need a greater one...now you are talking feathers.






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    Re: Vampire Knight 87 FULL RAWS AND TRANSLATION

    Post by Duskola on Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:19 am

    Knightmare wrote:I don't think there is room for such interpretation (in the bold).
    "end up like this" is the panel with the forbidden bite and Zero's angry eyes, the "the boy she cherishes" part is the panel of Zero moving in for the kiss and the " feelings for him are real" is the kiss page and the "but i..." is kaname's face at the end.

    so, I think the "end up like this" is the whole vampire/hunter/pureblood complicated relationship mess they are in.

    Knightmare, you are right, I wanted to re-edit that part yesterday evening, but it was 2 am lol! so I had to go to sleep lol! lol! lol!
    You are right, reading again those panels together with the sentences, "the boy she wants to cherish" may be Zero, and her feelings are referred to what she feels for Zero. I was mistaken because I really can't understand why Yuuki says "I belong to Kaname" in the morning and "I cherish Zero" in the evening, so at first I was startled by the first few strong love words she says about poor-guy Zero. I'm saying love because I don't think any of us would talk about cherishing a guy who does not love (?). And the kiss scene leaves very few space to "Oh no she doesn't love Zero at all" interpretation. I already said elsewhere that she probably loves them both, in different ways. Maybe we have two Yuuki, not only one. The human one is in human love with Zero, and this would explain why she doesn't desire to consume his blood like she wants to do with Kaname's. And the vampire one is in a purely vampire love with Kaname.
    Who knows?

    Knightmare wrote:Well it all boils down to personal interpretation of the previous chapter. For me, this fits perfectly in line. I didn't see her as friendzoning him, I saw her as pointing out they couldn't work, I won't go into the details/distinctions as I'm sure it was heavily debated last chapter, but you'll appreciate it might depend on your point of view.

    You're right, but as juliet says in details, this is not the end of a long, developed feeling of Yuuki for Zero, of a series of troubled POV when she thinks that she desires him but cannot have him at all. All we've seen until now between them is partnership and cherishing each other, and above all, PAST. Even in this kiss scene, all they seem to cherish about their relationship is PAST. Nothing but PAST, when they were bot human. This is the reason why I have to take back what I said, that maybe he changed his mind about PB because he could finally kiss her. All the "you remind me a girl that died a year ago" thing... Oh my, Zero. When are you going to develop as a character? =_='' But this is coherent with the scene Yuuki sees when she takes his blood, in which Ichiru says "the one who guards the coffin is only a lingering memory". So, who is Zero in love for? For the current Yuuki, or for the lingering memory?

    Knightmare wrote:
    The same with the "belong to Kaname" statement. I saw this as reiteration of a fact that originated in chapter 46, that "Yuuki knows where she belongs". I didn't see this is as a love statement, Yuuki has made plenty of clear ones in the past, but they have been far more obtuse and we must focus on what she says she wants and doesn't want for clarity. Not to say that Yuuki doesn't love Kaname, but its not the foremost barrier between them, because Yuuki already showed she's capable of love for 2 men, but the one she is supposed to be with is obvious to her.

    So, you say that she is capable to love two man at once, but that she stays with Kaname because "she knows her place", because she knows "where she is supposed to be", and that all the panels with Kaname - not to mention, the one in which she said that her feelings for Zero, that she confessed to Kaname himself, were "childish and excessive words" - were, yes, love. But also, she couldn't stay with anybody else than Kaname, because they are of the same kin, and she fears to be alone (I can't find any panel at the moment in which she fears to be alone, please correct me if I'm wrong - I've always seen Kaname fearing to be abandoned. As for Yuuki, she's been in despair to have lost her Kaname until few chapters ago, not in fear to be alone. But maybe I didn't notice some nuances, or I don't remember some sentences she actually said, so please feel free to link them here).

    Knightmare wrote:
    Its seems like a really overblown barrier in her mindset, but I think 80% resides in how she thinks Zero hates vampires, so once that hurdle is passed, the last 20% is about their society/places in the world/reality.

    You may be right, I still can't understand why Hino never mentioned any kind of desire/love feelings for Zero in her previous POVs. I'm not saying she never showed us she cares for Zero, she loves Zero, she wants to be with Zero. But what she showed to us for Zero cannot be compared to what she showed to us for Kaname. And it seems that you're with me, as you say

    Knightmare wrote:
    Yuuki's feelings are not flipflopping between Zero and Kaname

    Yuuki has never been forced to choose between Zero and Kaname, Zero wasn't and still isn't an option. She chose to be with Kaname, she was not forced to be with him

    But you say at the same time that she loves Kaname and chose him only because Zero and Yuuki are different, and chosing Zero would have lead her to loneliness, and nothing else.

    Now, I'd like to know what do you think about all the chapters when she really remained alone. That is, when Kaname left her. She passed six months in the Academy. And she tried to tie again her relationship with Zero. BUT SHE ALWAYS THINKS ABOUT KANAME and she says that the words "there are two people in my heart" were childish and excessive. She says she never thought about taking, or never wanted to take, Zero's blood. She never goes to Zero saying: "Oh please, why do we have to be so different? I love you, I want to stay with you". No. It's all Kaname, Kaname, Kaname until the morning of the ball.

    Do we have to think, as you say, that she simply "locked up" every feeling for Zero because of their different position in the current society? (Let us not forget that "the current society" is very different from the one before, as Kaname destroyed the senate and most of the PB). And now, only now in this very ball, because they are masqued and they can pretend to be different, only now Hino chooses to let us know her true POV?

    I can't say that I don't believe this with certainty, because after 86 chapters of true Yume (and I never saw any "forced Yuuki" at all in these chapters, I'm sorry) we now came back to the same situation in which they kiss goodbye, about 40 chapters ago.

    juliet wrote:
    apparently there is no sense in making all of this course in order to go from point A to point A, just from where she started. Am i the only one seeing the gaps that the "I want them both" theory generates? and the damage she does to both characters and to the script?

    No, juliet, you're not the only one. Here I am lol!. I'm a bit confused about this kiss and I'd like to think what other pro VK readers thinks about it. I can't truly say that Yuuki doesn't love Zero, I only find very strange that Hino could take back all Yuuki's strong words so easily. I really want to point out that I'm not all in rage because of Zeki's kiss. They kissed and made some cute sparkling elsewhere in the plot. It's the "in the morning I belong to Kaname - in the evening I cherish Zero" thing that makes me go crazy. Well. I'm a newbie, and I've not any problem at all to say that maybe I was wrong all the time, and this is a Zeki story in the end, with the key of cohexistence being in a PB and a hunter to be able to marry and stay together. But I'm startled because of how Hino implemented this whole plot, letting us see the "two beasts madly in love" (quote) until now, and finally, suddenly revealing Yuuki's romantic feeling for Zero. I know that none of us can be objective. I can go on and on saying that I think Yuuki showed us true love only for Kaname until now, and I'm sure that Knightmare and many others would say that otherwise she always kept secret her true feelings until now and this is the very proof. We all have our sympathies and VK is not going to end up as we please, so somebody would be happy and somebody would be disappointed in any case.

    But, if we talk about literature (yes, I think manga are literature, too) I think that this chapter is totally disconnected with the one before, and maybe with all previous chapters. I think that this kiss is only some kind of sparkling cheap "I have to take some time messing up" Hino's trick. I think that she could have developed something in the mansion, while she clearly used this episode to state Yuuki's feelings, only to take back those feelings in the following chapter. So, the previous chapter was useless, or was a lie, and Yuuki could simply avoid to go in Kuran's mansion losing time to watch dust and such. I also think that this chapter is an excuse to make us see a typical gothic masquerade (maybe Hino wanted to draw one), as Isaya's plan doesn't make any sense for me. Because, as you say, Kaname knew Yuuki's heart was connected with Zero, too, and now he decided to pull her away, and he can't kill Zero because of something we don't know, so what?

    And above all, if you're right and the true love story now - and the more likely because it's "the most impossible" - is suddenly Zeki (without any step to step development, as for Yume), well. It may be, but it's not this very thing that makes me angry. It's the fact that, if suddenly Hino goes against all the hints she gave here and there (and in her own artbook, too), well, then VK is going to be a very cheap shoujo, with a very cheap plot, in which the only role for Kaname is to add spice to Zeki story, that never develops until the final battle. 86 chapters wasted only to make us see a hunter and a PB staying together and finally building a true peace between the two races. Wonderful. Let us see if this truly develops in a teenager utopia and leaves back all Kaname's secrets and Yuuki's intentions to "start properly".





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    Re: Vampire Knight 87 FULL RAWS AND TRANSLATION

    Post by Knightmare on Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:22 pm

    Duskola wrote:
    Knightmare, you are right, I wanted to re-edit that part yesterday evening, but it was 2 am lol! so I had to go to sleep lol! lol! lol!
    lol, been there, done that.


    You're right, but as juliet says in details, this is not the end of a long, developed feeling of Yuuki for Zero, of a series of troubled POV when she thinks that she desires him but cannot have him at all. All we've seen until now between them is partnership and cherishing each other, and above all, PAST.
    Well, you set your expectations for what you need to see and other have their own standards, I would have liked to see more than Yuuki thinking Zero hates her and her kind and her being troubled by that. She closed off her heart (ch47) and spent a year trying to cut him out of her heart, but Hino set her own pace and in her last volume I believe the comments indicated she was picking up the pace.

    imo they have no present to cherish. Hino has been doggedly working to reunite these two from their major break down in 46 and these chapters have been all about Yuuki and Zero resolving seeing each other as enemies, Zero relenting and seeing Yuuki as the girl he loved and Yuuki, well, she has been trying to claw back her relationship with Zero without pushing him too far (letting him set the pace - 74).


    So, who is Zero in love for? For the current Yuuki, or for the lingering memory?
    Better to ask if Yuuki is different or not, or is she still the same gentle protective girl who cared deeply about protecting her friends, does she still possess the same qualities he fell in love with. Will Zero recognise this, has he already?


    But also, she couldn't stay with anybody else than Kaname, because they are of the same kin, and she fears to be alone (I can't find any panel at the moment in which she fears to be alone, please correct me if I'm wrong - I've always seen Kaname fearing to be abandoned. As for Yuuki, she's been in despair to have lost her Kaname until few chapters ago, not in fear to be alone. But maybe I didn't notice some nuances, or I don't remember some sentences she actually said, so please feel free to link them here).
    Chapter 51. Yuuki contemplates forever and what it means and choosing to be with kaname. specifically:
    vampire yuuki: "is it wrong? to want him to be my side because i don't want to be alone?"


    But what she showed to us for Zero cannot be compared to what she showed to us for Kaname.
    i see the two relationships as very different and actually find incredible amount of depth of feelings between Zero and Yuuki, always have. Its why I've never thought they could settle for friendship, they push it to the edge and go beyond. its all pov.


    Now, I'd like to know what do you think about all the chapters when she really remained alone. That is, when Kaname left her. She passed six months in the Academy. And she tried to tie again her relationship with Zero. BUT SHE ALWAYS THINKS ABOUT KANAME and she says that the words "there are two people in my heart" were childish and excessive. She says she never thought about taking, or never wanted to take, Zero's blood. She never goes to Zero saying: "Oh please, why do we have to be so different? I love you, I want to stay with you". No. It's all Kaname, Kaname, Kaname until the morning of the ball.
    IMO Yuuki was broken up until the point that she drank zero's blood because she couldn't think straight from thirst. she was troubled by kaname and his actions and her thirst was driving her a bit crazy, she couldn't gain the respect of the purebloods and she couldn't get moving on actually going and stopping kaname. I don't recall her actually missing kaname except for the fact that she couldn't drink his blood when she was thirsting.

    Yuuki would never say such words to Zero, she stated in 74 that she would let him set the pace, I assume because she feared pushing him away, until that point, she believed he only saw her as an enemy that she had promised to run away from. their relationship is not simple and would not be solved by such a ploy as a love declaration, such things need to be worked up to slowly by Hino.


    Do we have to think, as you say, that she simply "locked up" every feeling for Zero because of their different position in the current society? (Let us not forget that "the current society" is very different from the one before, as Kaname destroyed the senate and most of the PB). And now, only now in this very ball, because they are masqued and they can pretend to be different, only now Hino chooses to let us know her true POV?
    No, in ch47 she locked up her feelings for zero because of how he felt about her being a pureblood, the hurt and the pain etc. that part had nothing to do with society. as i said, 80% of the barrier between them is Zero and yuuki's perception of what he thinks. i'm not sure how much of 'hunter and pureblood don't dance' comes from general societal belief vs her belief that zero wouldn't dance with her because she's a pureblood.

    but yes, faces hidden, pretending to not be themselves, they are a bit freer to be honest. they are two very burdened individuals.

    juliet wrote:
    apparently there is no sense in making all of this course in order to go from point A to point A, just from where she started. Am i the only one seeing the gaps that the "I want them both" theory generates? and the damage she does to both characters and to the script?
    not really. its a pretty common trope after all. the girl just need to figure out what she truly wants and needs without the burden of outside issue clouding it, most of all, what makes her happy.

    in all honesty, to me, yuuki fell in love with kaname as a child, she had a perception of him that has slowly broken down since she became a vampire, the final bit kaname ripped away was being her brother. I don't think this made her hate him, but what remained was just the pretty face and the tasty blood. i think she loves the kaname that she knew, i just don't actually believe she loves the kaname that is before her now, simply because she doesn't know him.


    I'm sure that Knightmare and many others would say that otherwise she always kept secret her true feelings until now and this is the very proof. We all have our sympathies and VK is not going to end up as we please, so somebody would be happy and somebody would be disappointed in any case.
    yes, I have been looking at it through different lenses, since chapter 2 I have thought that yuuki and zero might end up together and been certain about it since chapter 18. not to say i haven't had disappointments and perplexities with vk, but i've always felt i just had to be patient and take what hints and allusions hino handed us.

    i've felt that the pace has been slow in this 2nd arc and actually, on the whole, the plots have been subpar, she promised to pick up the pace after volume 13, but rumour has it, that Hino didn't know how long she had until vol 16 was released (she didn't say how long apparently), so recently it really has picked up in speed.


    VK is going to be a very cheap shoujo, with a very cheap plot, in which the only role for Kaname is to add spice to Zeki story, that never develops until the final battle. 86 chapters wasted only to make us see a hunter and a PB staying together and finally building a true peace between the two races. Wonderful. Let us see if this truly develops in a teenager utopia and leaves back all Kaname's secrets and Yuuki's intentions to "start properly".
    co existence is a theme in vk, but its not the plot.

    to me, the plot is the 3 of them. yuuki is the narrator, Kaname is the plot driver and Zero is his ultimate device. zeki is just the icing of the story, the three relationships are very important and drive a lot of the tension and will continue to do so.

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    Re: Vampire Knight 87 FULL RAWS AND TRANSLATION

    Post by Duskola on Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:31 pm

    @Knightmare, now I see what you intend when you say "you set your expectations". You really want to see a Zeki ending, it's plain from what you're writing, and you have interpreted the story in this way until now.

    I have to say again that it's been a few months since I started reading VK, so I haven't lived the battle between Yume/Zeki so much lol! and this is the only forum I follow, so this puts me outside of the "war" lol!. I obviously prefer Kaname and Yume, but this is my POV. I made myself a lot of questions, I exposed my doubt in other topics, too, I read and read VK again, and I have to say that I've always tried to be objective. I find a bit stupid the "war" at all, too. As I wrote elsewhere, I think that it's not a question of being splitted in parties, or counting how many times the three of them kissed each other, or "Kaname is evil and Zero is a poor child so he HAS to have Yuuki in the end" and vice versa.

    So, I think that if one completely ignores Yuuki's behaviour towards Kaname and focuses only on the panels in which Yuuki cares about Zero, and if one completely ignores the pending questions we have about Yuuki's powers and Kaname's past, yes, your POV is coherent and completely agreeable. You may tell me: but there are no pending questions at all, this is only an interpretation of yours and few others, and as regards Yume, well, I SAW those panels, so it's plain for me that Zeki is the true love story and not the opposite, Yume is only a childish crush that is clearly going to disappear.

    The panels you pointed out, I noticed them myself (except the one in which you say that Yuuki wants to stay with Kaname not to be alone - sorry, but I never thought that this is the only reason why Yuuki chose Kaname, as you are stating).

    But I really can't understand how you can state that "the real plot is not the coexistence, but the three of them" and that Yuuki loves Kaname too, and it's important for her, when I read

    Knightmare wrote:
    i see the two relationships as very different and actually find incredible amount of depth of feelings between Zero and Yuuki, always have.

    Yes, and I never thought it was a simple friendship, too, but when I say that the two relationship cannot be compared, I want to say exactly the opposite: that through every panel until now, we saw Yume developing. Not Zeki. And that the sentences Yuuki states about Kaname (taint me too, I want to start properly, I wanted to see your face right after your memories, I want to devour him, I belong to him, her blushing every time she sees him, her reactions every time she stays with him, and so on...), Yuuki never tells them about Zero. She likes him, she cherishes him and maybe she has a human love for him. But you can't simply say that:

    Knightmare wrote:
    in all honesty, to me, yuuki fell in love with kaname as a child, she had a perception of him that has slowly broken down since she became a vampire, the final bit kaname ripped away was being her brother. I don't think this made her hate him, but what remained was just the pretty face and the tasty blood. i think she loves the kaname that she knew, i just don't actually believe she loves the kaname that is before her now, simply because she doesn't know him.

    And that


    I don't recall her actually missing kaname except for the fact that she couldn't drink his blood when she was thirsting

    when we see Yuuki tell her new brother "taint me too" (oh, well, she didn't seem to be so shocked by their "brocest" in that very moment), when we see Yuuki growing butterfly wings to follow him after the very moment he kills Aidou's father, when we see her going after him and hoping Kaname comes to take her away "like the other time", when she goes towards him ("My Kaname") in the night she sees him in the shadows (and Zero is there), when she reacts to the bad news Zero tells her at the Academy (the fake news Kaname wanted Kaien to tell her to push her away) with "Oh, well, I know that what he wants is to be hated by me, but I don't care, I will stay in the place he wants me to stay and then I will give him a slap or two or three". AND that she absolutely doesn't miss Kaname, yes, that's why she thinks about the "childish and excessive words" and imagine Kaname embracing her at the Academy lol!

    And I could go on and on, but I stop here. So, for you, all these hints (as you say, "but i've always felt i just had to be patient and take what hints and allusions hino handed us") can be simply erased by the other hints you pointed out?

    If the three of them are important to you, so please don't underestimate the relationship between Yuuki and Kaname.
    As I'm taking your observation in good consideration, and I'm reflecting about them, but - sorry, I don't want to make you angry, this is only my opinion - you seem to simply ignore all the panels and sentences we pointed out here and in other topics, too. So, we probably have collected and misunderstood a whole bunch of hints that Hino gave and that are absolutely not important for the true story? It may be, but the fact is, you say:

    Knightmare wrote:
    their relationship is not simple and would not be solved by such a ploy as a love declaration, such things need to be worked up to slowly by Hino.

    i've felt that the pace has been slow in this 2nd arc and actually, on the whole, the plots have been subpar, she promised to pick up the pace after volume 13, but rumour has it, that Hino didn't know how long she had until vol 16 was released (she didn't say how long apparently), so recently it really has picked up in speed.

    I'm with you when you say that Zeki's relationship is difficult, but apart the few episodes you pointed out - you were the one to say that nothing really developed between them until now, when "Hino picked up in speed" and that "in this 2nd arc the plot was slow" - or simply, what you hoped for took a long time to happen? lol! - well, apart them. What we saw until now, in both the first and second arc, was a slow development of Yume relationship, with some sparkles here and there of Zeki. If Hino wants to develop Zeki, this is probably the starting point and none of us can know how it's going to be (only Hino lol!). But to tell that until now the relationship between Yuuki and Kaname was only a teenager crush that only made the true Zeki relationship slower than expected, well. If I was Hino, I wouldn't take 86 chapters only to sell some bunch of paper and then "pick up in speed" to make the story finally come out as I want, totally changing "the pace" in some panels.

    Please don't misunderstand: I'm not saying that Zeki cannot, or won't develop at all. I'm only saying that Hino is very clever in telling stories - or this is what it seemed to me until now - and that she developed the plot in such a good way until now that, if something must develop until Zeki, it would not just be a kiss at a ball because they are masked, the very night after she tells him she belongs to Kaname, and just after the kiss, she tells "BUT I..." as soon as she sees Kaname.

    I think that Hino would have to develop them to put their relationship on the same level than Yume, because, as you say, they have no present to share at the moment and they are only attached to their past memories (so, what is the difference with Yuuki teenage crush/good face/good blood for Kaname-of-the-past? lol!) - and for this, I don't know how many chapters it will take, but she simply can't "change the pace" in a little bunch of panels. Oh well, but if you think that Yume relationship is simply finished and erased, and that the level of it was not high at all... I understand your POV. Let us see Smile







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    Re: Vampire Knight 87 FULL RAWS AND TRANSLATION

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