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    anti-vampire weapons...

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    nuitetoile21
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    anti-vampire weapons...

    Post by nuitetoile21 on Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:24 am

    First topic message reminder :

    Until now I believed that the anti-vampire weapons are two: the bloody rose and the artemis.
    but it seems that there is one more: the sword.
    I am talking about the sword that Rido uses to kill baby Kaname (and it has to be anti-vampire to kill a baby vampire) and the sword that Rido again uses against Haruka and Kaname recognizes it (I believe that it is the same sword, cause their shapes are the same but with Hino I can;t be sure for this lol! )
    Here the links for the scenes withe sword I am talking about:

    http://www.onemanga.com/Vampire_Knight/62/005/
    http://www.onemanga.com/Vampire_Knight/38/18/
    http://www.onemanga.com/Vampire_Knight/38/14/

    we know already that antivampire weapons were made by Kaname. And that the female ancestor use to have Artemis.
    we also know that Artemis and bloody rose can't hurt Kaname (specially the bloody rose) cause they recognize him as their master
    So my question is: if Kaname use to have Bloody rose as a weapon and the female anchestor had Artemis, then who had the sword??
    Kaname said that the sword belongs to the hunters. but it is still confusing to me.
    And another question: whyZero has the bloody rose? who gave it to him???
    and why is written above the bloody rose the phrase: CROSSING DANGER???
    http://th01.deviantart.com/fs27/300W/i/2008/035/e/7/Bloody_Rose_Gun_by_wOmpy_ness.jpg
    Is the bloody rose connected with Cross? I can't think any other explanation why this phrase is there.

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    Re: anti-vampire weapons...

    Post by rumland on Wed Jun 01, 2011 1:20 pm

    To juliet about the cut off, when useing the post picture function on this site it cuts off the right part of the picture, I think this might be cause I use a special resalution to make the desktop fit on my screen.

    As for the swords, I am not saying that all kurans can't wield them, just that kaname cant wield. Also notice I am useing the term wield and not use. He can obviously use the sword, however it is rejecting him as he does it. It is also possible that just by holding it he stops his own regeneration ability. So for a pb to use a av weapon it would be like useing a double edged sword. Sure you stop your enemys ability to regen but you aslo stop yours, with the kurans that have the ability to wield them the self regen is left alone.

    Now this page explains the rejection
    http://i5.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/41/vampire-knight-56264.jpg
    And as you can see she is still holding even though it is rejecting her. That pretty much shows the weapon rejection, with the artimis and the sword the rejection is in the form of lightning and for the bloody rose I belive it is in the form of vines.
    The thing I thought I explained was in the picture you posted juliet, there appears to be lightning in at least 2 of the images in that picture to me.
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    Re: anti-vampire weapons...

    Post by sweetsolace on Wed Jun 01, 2011 1:57 pm

    rumland wrote:As for conterdiction/gaps, I dont remember it saying straight out that kaname can weild the weapons, all it ever stated was he was the first to figure out how to make them and that the kuran line has had people who can use them, the rest of it is all just your opion or if you can show me a page saying flat out that he can weild them with out paying a price then I will withdraw my statement, but that page dont exist.

    why don't you find the page that flat out proves your point first? otherwise it's just your opinion that "lightning means a sign of rejection".

    That page where Yuki gets electrified and Kaname says artemis rejects her is not a flat out proof. Here's a possible contradiction to that:
    http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-57-page-10.html
    no lightning effect.

    Back to that page, Kaname said "Artemis was born without a handle. And it was born to completely reject vampires", he said this while yuki was being electrocuted.

    Artemis was born without a handle:
    The 1st sentence is still debatable. So do artemis need to have a handle for it to be used by a pureblood like Yuki, on the premise that Yuki can wield avweapons? the answer showed itself when artemis conformed itself to Yuki's needs
    http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-41-page-32.html
    The lightning (or "rejection" to you) happened when artemis was in rod or "no handle" form. It stopped ]electrocuting her when it changed form. The second time she also touched artemis there was no electricity. I don't think this has anything to do with rejection.. and if it is, it's a weird type of rejection wherein the weapon itself conforms to the user so it won't be rejected. lol! so now the weapon has a mind on its own and doesn't wish to be rejected by the one who uses it...

    about weapons having with or without handle..
    Antivampire weapons were created for hunters use originally (look back chapter 64 during its creation) so the Kurans should not have this ability, but for some reason they have... hence the avweapons available to them is different from the hunters in that they are capable of using it despite being vampires. In short, the avweapons at their disposal has special properties. Artemis Rod form can be used by humans and hunters like yuki, but it can't be used by vampire yuki because it was born without a "handle", so when it changed its form into a scythe, it can be derived that artemis conformed to Yuki to create a "handle" for her (by literally changing its form), presuming artemis recognized her as Kuran and "capable" of wielding it.
    And it was born to completely reject vampires"
    2nd sentence is a fact, all vampires except some of the Kurans cannot use antivampire weapons, Artemis is an av weapon hence it was born to reject all vampires

    rumland wrote:You dont think his hand being burned pitch black is a sign of rejection? Realy?
    Excludeing the earlyist of chapters all the vampires that have touched the artimist have caused the lightning effect, this includes zero and kaname as well as yuki when she first turned. Prior vampire yuki no lightning, vampire yuki lightning, which hurt her, then after words the lightning stops with her and se is able to use it.
    Think of the lightning as a eltric fence, it is there to reject entry, now just cause it is eltrified dosen't mean it cant be climbed, you just have to be able to bare the pain, we know the lightning cause pain from yuki grabbing it after turning.
    Now as far as the manga has shown the only thing that happens when the artimis is touched by the a vampire is the lightning, so it is common sence to assume that is the rejection feature.

    that's ONE page proof for something you consider to be "common sence" when the lightning reaction has been seen on Zero, Yuki, and Kaname in the past.

    as for kaname's hand there are many theories as to why the kuran sword reacts to him that way (see the link posted earlier about the thread discussing this)

    I think the sword, like the rod form of artemis, was born without a handle, and it didn't evolve to its second form yet. hence the consistent lightning effect.
    here we already saw second form of artemis (scythe) and bloodyrose (barrage of thorns).
    in theory anyway. if it is, then why didnt it evolve yet or is there really a second form?
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    Re: anti-vampire weapons...

    Post by RedSonja on Wed Jun 01, 2011 2:24 pm

    heeey guys no need to fight!!as i see it both sides are correct!!kaname in a young age seems to be able to use it without hurting him,but when he killed hanadagi the sword electrified him but he could hold as long as he needed it....maybe hino didnt pay much attention to that kind of details.....
    well the only thing that we can do is wait to see if its going to be explained later...and im curious about the origin of the sword...
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    Re: anti-vampire weapons...

    Post by rumland on Wed Jun 01, 2011 2:35 pm

    Solace yuki awakened her ability to wield the artimis when fighting with rido on the roof top, the sword obviously has a hilt.
    Also this page does prove the point that the lightning has to do with the rejection.
    http://i5.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/41/vampire-knight-56264.jpg
    Yuki grabs it and says why artimis and kaname explains why, the only defrence between that time and any other time was the lightning and the only defrence with yuki was that she was a vampire.
    As for why kaname didn't get burned back then, it could be some thing as simple as the amount of time he held onto the weapon. The longer you hold it the mroe damage you take.
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    Re: anti-vampire weapons...

    Post by mariangie on Wed Jun 01, 2011 3:11 pm

    About the handle thing :

    For what I get an anti - vampire weapon could have or not a handle to be used . The handle refers to a portion of the weapon that could be touched safety by a vampire without his / her regeneration ability stopped ( aka : destroy him / her ) .

    Artemis has no surface in it's entire body that could be grab by any vampire . This is what it means is made to entirery reject any vampire except one with the full anti - vampire weapon ability .

    Probably the example of a anti - vampire weapons with a handle is Bloody Rose . It's first form is a gun . But the bullets are the ones with the anti - vampire material . Not the gun . So most probably a vampire could tough Bloody Rose and nothing happens to him . The bullets are other thing . Bloody rose bullets could kill most vampires with just a scratch . The rose whips and thorns of the second form have anti - vampire abilities .

    Artemis and Bloody Rose appears to have being the prototypes of all anti - vampire weapons . They appear also to be keep to be use by only the Kuran family . Until Bloody Rose was given somehow it for his use by Kaien .

    Rido's anti - vampire weapon sword has a hilt . But its entirery surface is made from anti - vampire weapon alloy . This means it doesn't have a " handle " where a normal vampire could grab it and not began being affected by its anti - regeneration abilities .

    ***********************

    About the anti - vampire weapons yield and use ability .

    As I see both sides of the last few post discussions are right . The problem is Kaname is no following the usual rules for the use of anti - vampire weapons . Kaname was the first Vampire King . He arise to power because he could yield anti - vampire weapons . Implying he could kill vampires with those weapons without being killed himself by mere touching them . But during the times he is shown using them . All the weapons shown at his hands make sparkles and crackle sounds . Indicating they rejecting him .

    But his power to yield and use anti - vampire weapons appears to be only partial . Why is that ? This is my idea .

    Kaname was the scientist who discovered making an alloy of certain metals with pureblood flesh / blood could work to stop / diminish the ability of all vampires to regenerate themselves . Purebloods are basically inmortal and invulnerable because their regeneretion abilities is faster than other vampires . Basically instantaneous .

    The pureblood braided hooded pureblood lady was the one who ended sacrificing herself to finish the alloy that became the prime material for all anti- vampire weapons . Her genes that were devoured by the original humans that became vampire hunters allow them to use the weapons .

    Most probably , Kaname was born without those genes . He probably was the only vampire who drank from the hooded braided pureblood lady's blood . So he got powers from hers . Probably the genes for using the anti - vampire weapons . As he wasn't born with the ability . His body could handle the weapons due to the protection given by her blood inside him . But his vampire nature make the weapons reject him at the same time .

    If what I'm speculating is near the truth . Kaname could both use the anti - vampire weapons . At the same time being reject by them . Tolerate enough damage to use them in an effective way .

    Most probable the Kurans who were Kaname's descendants could fully yield and use the anti - vampire weapons as they were born with the ability . Inherit the genes of the hooded braided pureblood lady in a direct way . ( If she was their female first ancestress ) Or inherit from Kaname's . So their bodies could avoid being rejected by the weapons . Of course they could be killed by the weapons . But not being harmed by mere touching the weapons as the rest of vampires .

    Vampire hunters never have trouble yielding the anti - vampire weapons . Because the main mechanism by they work is to tamper with vampire cellular regeneration . Not with human cell regeneretion . So vampire hunters could touch without problems those weapons . Since the first time a human drank / devoured the hooded pureblood lady blood / flesh and survive . Obtaining the pureblood lady's genes as prize .

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    Re: anti-vampire weapons...

    Post by sweetsolace on Wed Jun 01, 2011 5:32 pm

    RavenBlack wrote:heeey guys no need to fight!!

    haha.. i wouldn't call this fighting, don't worry. we're just debating. ;)

    rumland wrote:Solace yuki awakened her ability to wield the artimis when fighting with rido on the roof top, the sword obviously has a hilt.
    Also this page does prove the point that the lightning has to do with the rejection.
    http://i5.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/41/vampire-knight-56264.jpg
    Yuki grabs it and says why artimis and kaname explains why, the only defrence between that time and any other time was the lightning and the only defrence with yuki was that she was a vampire.
    how do you explain this page:
    Spoiler:
    Zero holding artemis –chapter 6-30
    zero was already a vampire when he touched it so it electrified him in the same way it did to yuki, however he was also a hunter so he's suppose to be able to wield av weapons.

    Kaname grabbing yuki’s artemis –chapter 30-21
    here artemis reacted to kaname's contact more than just a crackle. see the veins popping on the rod, its the same with yuki's scythe later on. what if its reacting to the Kuran blood as its wielder?
    does this mean the weapons also rejected them? affraid
    And I didn't hear Zero or Kaname say "Ouch that bolt of lightning from touching this weapon hurt!"

    Yuki was shock and ask Why because she touched artemis after she was turned into a vampire, she did not expect artemis to shock her. it stopped shocking her when it changed form, so can you say that it stopped rejecting her because you no longer saw crackles? so it only means Rejection when you see lightning?

    so... think about it... if Rejection is as what you say on that page, then what happens now? Other vampires CAN USE this weapon if they can bear a little pain or risk getting burned! what happens to Sara now, who didn't kill hanadagi or ouri because she thought she cannot wield avweapons! but if she followed your theory and found it correct, then she would perfectly have the ability to wield weapons if she can stand the pain or risk being burned!

    after all, that was what you were suggesting, that Kaname doesn't have the ability to wield weapons, hence he was burned. It only follows if Sara also doesn't have the ability, she CAN use weapons and even kill pbs like kaname just did, but she have to get some burn scars! lol why didn't Sara or Hino read this theory before that? rofl

    im keeding..rofl

    As for why kaname didn't get burned back then, it could be some thing as simple as the amount of time he held onto the weapon. The longer you hold it the mroe damage you take.
    yes ofc, that's why Ruka told him to disarm himself from the weapon because it was harming him.

    mariangie wrote:
    Probably the example of a anti - vampire weapons with a handle is Bloody Rose . It's first form is a gun . But the bullets are the ones with the anti - vampire material . Not the gun . So most probably a vampire could tough Bloody Rose and nothing happens to him . The bullets are other thing . Bloody rose bullets could kill most vampires with just a scratch . The rose whips and thorns of the second form have anti - vampire abilities .

    the BR is a special weapon i think, the only antivampire property is probably only the bullets. because zero can use it both as human and as a vampire without problems. the thorn branches from the gun was its second form i think
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    Re: anti-vampire weapons...

    Post by rumland on Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:50 pm

    What would be the point of sara trying to use a av weapon if it removes her ability to regenerate just by holding onto it? She is not exacly a powerhouse so if she or any other pb not highly skilled in fighting tryed to use one then they would only be signing there own death warnt.
    As for why zero is getting shocked while being a vampire hunter, the artimis is realy picky and he is now a full vampire and even if he is a level-d he is as powerfull as a pb and before you say it, yes the av weapons do all have wills of there own.

    As for them not saying owch, yeah sure I am sure those two will just burst into tears when they get hurt lol

    Now fight on point, the lightning is the only that makes makes sence being the form of the rejection, we have it saying it is the rejection in the page I linked, also it is the only common factor between the 2 races, vampire contact lightning, human contact no lightning.

    Hunestly I don't see why you are haveing so much trouble acepting this. So what if kaname is on the same level as the other purebloods when useing the av weapon.
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    Re: anti-vampire weapons...

    Post by nina on Wed Jun 01, 2011 10:39 pm

    sweetsolace wrote: so... think about it... if Rejection is as what you say on that page, then what happens now? Other vampires CAN USE this weapon if they can bear a little pain or risk getting burned! what happens to Sara now, who didn't kill hanadagi or ouri because she thought she cannot wield avweapons! but if she followed your theory and found it correct, then she would perfectly have the ability to wield weapons if she can stand the pain or risk being burned!

    after all, that was what you were suggesting, that Kaname doesn't have the ability to wield weapons, hence he was burned. It only follows if Sara also doesn't have the ability, she CAN use weapons and even kill pbs like kaname just did, but she have to get some burn scars! lol why didn't Sara or Hino read this theory before that?


    Well said sweet

    Conclusion … all the other PBs are chickens and stupid since they prefer to lose their lives than bear a hand burn ROFLMAO!!!!!!!

    *****************************

    Ok now on more serious arguments …

    mariangie wrote: The pureblood braided hooded pureblood lady was the one who ended sacrificing herself to finish the alloy that became the prime material for all anti- vampire weapons . Her genes that were devoured by the original humans that became vampire hunters allow them to use the weapons .

    Most probably , Kaname was born without those genes . He probably was the only vampire who drank from the hooded braided pureblood lady's blood . So he got powers from hers . Probably the genes for using the anti - vampire weapons . As he wasn't born with the ability . His body could handle the weapons due to the protection given by her blood inside him . But his vampire nature make the weapons reject him at the same time .

    If what I'm speculating is near the truth . Kaname could both use the anti - vampire weapons . At the same time being reject by them . Tolerate enough damage to use them in an effective way .

    Most probable the Kurans who were Kaname's descendants could fully yield and use the anti - vampire weapons as they were born with the ability . Inherit the genes of the hooded braided pureblood lady in a direct way . ( If she was their female first ancestress ) Or inherit from Kaname's . So their bodies could avoid being rejected by the weapons . Of course they could be killed by the weapons . But not being harmed by mere touching the weapons as the rest of vampires .


    This ^^ was more or less my first impression but I beg to differ and I’ll try to put down a few questions which IMO contradicts the above theory by distinguishing the facts from the logical conclusions and from interpretations/theories.

    FACT: Kaname did the experiment which led to the creation of the anti-vampire weapons.

    FACT: He has used his OWN flesh and blood not the hooded-woman’s for the experiment.

    FACT: The experiment was successful since he found the way to kill PBs.

    FACT: He was planning to sacrifice HIMSELF in order to create the weapons and the hunters.

    Logical conclusion of the above FACTS >>>Kaname could be in the place of the hooded-woman in FACT he was planning to be!!!! So that what it says … does he has the genes or not? I think the answer is obvious.

    Also IF the hooded-woman had the anti-vampire “genes” hence she was the significant factor which led to the anti-VWs then so does Kaname! Ergo if the two of them had these genes then probably all the PBs at least ancestors have it! << this however contradicts with another point … IF all the PBs could be used to be made ANWs WHY nobody didn’t do it thus far since the process is well-known??? After all the only requirement is a PB’s heart and molten metal …

    Theory which I believe in:

    Kaname OR has anti-vampire “genes” which were transferred in the formula/metallic soup he made >> the result of his experiment OR a unique synthesis (also his discovery)+his own flesh and blood had as result to be born the anti-vampire power which later translated into anti-vampire weapons!

    The hooded-lady “stole” and “drunk” this formula/metallic soup >>> her body/blood infused by the “poisonous formula” (< remember her paleness) >>> feed the humans with her blood which contained the anti-vampire element and then>>> threw her heart into the furnace in order to be formed the weapons. In other words the hooded-lady was the mean, not the source and the "first victim of a prior form of the AVWs". Furthermore this theory explains why the Bloody Rose obeyed in Kaname’s request to release him … the BR “remembered” the taste of HIS BLOOD.

    Another possibility:

    Now IF it will be proved that Kaname can use the AVWs partly, then another explanation I could think of. Since the creation of the AVWs requires Kaname’s metallic soup (<< viz his own flesh and blood) plus the hooded-lady’s heart that means Kaname contributed only the 50% in this process ergo he can use the weapons but partly.

    Another contradiction:

    IF the hooded-lady was the source of the anti-vampire genes/ability and Kaname “inherited” the ability of partly wield the ANWs cuz he was feed with her blood and IF she was the mother of his children then this doesn’t mean that ALL of their children should have the ability? Or at least some of them to have fully ability and the others semi-ability like their father Kaname has?

    Now you know that we are all totally off topic here huh?













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    Re: anti-vampire weapons...

    Post by rumland on Wed Jun 01, 2011 11:27 pm

    nina you are missing the whole point.
    The av weapons do more then just burn, the fact that you are able to get burned provs that, they remove your regen ability, which means useing a av with out the proper genes will put you in the boat as the person you are attacking, it will remove your regen ability. That is why the other pb's dont use them, what is the use of cutting off the oppents regen if you cut your own off as well.

    Now does kaname have the genes to use av weapons, from what we have seen so far I would have to say no. If he did he would be able to take ahold of av weapons with out getting hurt.
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    Re: anti-vampire weapons...

    Post by juliet on Thu Jun 02, 2011 9:05 am

    rumland wrote:nina you are missing the whole point.
    The av weapons do more then just burn, the fact that you are able to get burned provs that, they remove your regen ability, which means useing a av with out the proper genes will put you in the boat as the person you are attacking, it will remove your regen ability. That is why the other pb's dont use them, what is the use of cutting off the oppents regen if you cut your own off as well.

    Now does kaname have the genes to use av weapons, from what we have seen so far I would have to say no. If he did he would be able to take ahold of av weapons with out getting hurt.

    Rum, anti-vampires are anti-vampires if the one who is wielding it is going to get hurt obvsiously it wll hurt him. But both Nina and Solace and I are standing on a very good arguement here, perhaps wielding anti-vampires saps the energy of the holder if too much energy is spend...but further than that this does not mean again that anybody can wield them being a vampire or a human. The weapon would reject he who does not posses the power...

    When Isaya says to Yuuki that Kurans became Kings in the past due to their ability to wield anti-vampire what that meant? that they were the only ones capable of withstanding the pain? profoundly not.

    Kaname discovered a power in his body parts that passed in the metal soup and this proved to be a lethal weapon for vampires...that was the discovery. Some Kurans possesed also that trait..this is what I understand. On the other hand you are just basing who can wield it or not on a lighting effect that the mangaka can even forget to add or no.


    Last edited by juliet on Thu Jun 02, 2011 9:28 am; edited 1 time in total






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    Re: anti-vampire weapons...

    Post by sweetsolace on Thu Jun 02, 2011 9:25 am

    rumland wrote:What would be the point of sara trying to use a av weapon if it removes her ability to regenerate just by holding onto it? She is not exacly a powerhouse so if she or any other pb not highly skilled in fighting tryed to use one then they would only be signing there own death warnt.
    As for why zero is getting shocked while being a vampire hunter, the artimis is realy picky and he is now a full vampire and even if he is a level-d he is as powerfull as a pb and before you say it, yes the av weapons do all have wills of there own.

    As for them not saying owch, yeah sure I am sure those two will just burst into tears when they get hurt lol

    Now fight on point, the lightning is the only that makes makes sence being the form of the rejection, we have it saying it is the rejection in the page I linked, also it is the only common factor between the 2 races, vampire contact lightning, human contact no lightning.

    Hunestly I don't see why you are haveing so much trouble acepting this

    rumland wrote:nina you are missing the whole point.
    The av weapons do more then just burn, the fact that you are able to get burned provs that, they remove your regen ability, which means useing a av with out the proper genes will put you in the boat as the person you are attacking, it will remove your regen ability. That is why the other pb's dont use them, what is the use of cutting off the oppents regen if you cut your own off as well.

    Now does kaname have the genes to use av weapons, from what we have seen so far I would have to say no. If he did he would be able to take ahold of av weapons with out getting hurt.

    you're the one missing the whole point. Pay attention to what you're reading. I've already discussed how the lightning cant be a sign of rejection, if that's the case then everyone can suffer a little electrocution or get burned to be able to use a weapon, the point is IF rejection means the ability to use or can't use the weapon, your definition of rejection means that person CAN STILL USE the weapon as long as they can stand the pain, ex Kaname. He CAN USE it despite the effects so what does this mean to you?
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    Re: anti-vampire weapons...

    Post by aerah08 on Thu Jun 02, 2011 1:51 pm

    well since the av weapons were indeed came from the hooded woman.. and since kaname did drank her blood from the day he accepts her offer to be with her comrade.. i think the history of the kuran clan is not actually or biologically kaname's offsprings.. if you have notice his conversation before with the hooded woman that she ask him to turn some voluntered person to be a vampire to whom he could be feed off.. which he definitely refuses "at first" maybe because he says he has to love someone in particular http://www.mangareader.net/104-56087-10/vampire-knight/chapter-63.html.. perhaps when the hooded woman deceased he absolutely do what did she suggested him since it was for his benefit.. perhaps he did eventually turn some of the voluntered woman into vampire who inherited his blood ofcourse.. and since he drank the hooded womans blood before the humans who inherits his blood also inherited the hooded woman's blood (who was the progenitor of the AV weapons) as well.. and that alone could possibly be the start of Kuran Clan.. those who inherited the Blood of Kaname and The Hooded Woman.. and that is why they can wield the weapon by will Surprised
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    Re: anti-vampire weapons...

    Post by nina on Thu Jun 02, 2011 2:19 pm

    If Kaname had turn a human into vampire and made her the mother of his children then their offspring wouldn’t be PBs!





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    Re: anti-vampire weapons...

    Post by aerah08 on Thu Jun 02, 2011 2:49 pm

    I didn't say he made this human as the mother of his children.. my opinion is that kaname is still a single by the time we went into his slumber.. and that kuran clan is the blood line who inherited his blood after they are being turned by him.. as we all know kaname doesn't have any surnames back then, but his kin manage to take "Kuran" as their surname, i don't think they were indeed related biologically.. but when it comes to blood since i think they were being turned by kaname they considered themselves as his children.. that is what im pointing out.. i never mention that he makes a human a mother to his soon-child.. i doubt he made that.. all i am saying is perhaps this kurans were the once he turns into vampire then proclaimed themselves as his offspring since they inherit his blood
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    Re: anti-vampire weapons...

    Post by juliet on Thu Jun 02, 2011 2:56 pm

    hi aera, again the kurans turned would not be purebloods, plus Haruka-Rido-Kaname are similar!!






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    Re: anti-vampire weapons...

    Post by aerah08 on Thu Jun 02, 2011 3:10 pm

    well then its just merely my opinion.. so it won't be so cruel if i think of that way..Razz
    though i know all of you is right.. that there is a certain woman who bears kaname's offspring aside from yuuki and the hooded woman.. perhaps that is the secret he can't tell yuuki as the story had state.. perhaps he's afraid that if yuuki's find out that he did have some sexual intercourse with a certain woman from the past to bear him offspring it will only reduce his appeal on yuuki..
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    Re: anti-vampire weapons...

    Post by juliet on Thu Jun 02, 2011 3:15 pm

    aerah08 wrote:well then its just merely my opinion.. so it won't be so cruel if i think of that way..Razz
    though i know all of you is right.. that there is a certain woman who bears kaname's offspring aside from yuuki and the hooded woman.. perhaps that is the secret he can't tell yuuki as the story had state.. perhaps he's afraid that if yuuki's find out that he did have some sexual intercourse with a certain woman from the past to bear him offspring it will only reduce his appeal on yuuki..
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    well he had to have children with someone(!!)...What really strikes me in Yuuki is the fact that she does not ask!! Isn't she even curious?






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    Re: anti-vampire weapons...

    Post by aerah08 on Thu Jun 02, 2011 3:20 pm

    perhaps she already have an idea.. since kaname admits to her that he was an ancestor.. ofcourse being an ancestor it means he has to be with someone in order for their bloodline to continue living..
    perhaps that is why she didn't ask him.. after all yuuki isn't that fool..
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    Re: anti-vampire weapons...

    Post by Knightmare on Thu Jun 02, 2011 3:27 pm

    I think the "rejection" is a punishment for handling a weapon that doesn't want to be handled by the user, it won't kill them and can eventually change its mind ala Artemis & Yuuki.

    My theory is that anti-vampire weapons are simply inert and cannot kill anything when handled by the "wrong" person. Same as how shooting a human with a anti-vampire gun has no effect or cutting someone with an anti-vampire sword shouldn't cut. This is afterall some kind of magic.

    But I think Kurans like Hunters, are special in that they have the ability to kill with these weapons.
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    Re: anti-vampire weapons...

    Post by rumland on Thu Jun 02, 2011 7:06 pm

    sweetsolace wrote:
    rumland wrote:What would be the point of sara trying to use a av weapon if it removes her ability to regenerate just by holding onto it? She is not exacly a powerhouse so if she or any other pb not highly skilled in fighting tryed to use one then they would only be signing there own death warnt.
    As for why zero is getting shocked while being a vampire hunter, the artimis is realy picky and he is now a full vampire and even if he is a level-d he is as powerfull as a pb and before you say it, yes the av weapons do all have wills of there own.

    As for them not saying owch, yeah sure I am sure those two will just burst into tears when they get hurt lol

    Now fight on point, the lightning is the only that makes makes sence being the form of the rejection, we have it saying it is the rejection in the page I linked, also it is the only common factor between the 2 races, vampire contact lightning, human contact no lightning.

    Hunestly I don't see why you are haveing so much trouble acepting this

    rumland wrote:nina you are missing the whole point.
    The av weapons do more then just burn, the fact that you are able to get burned provs that, they remove your regen ability, which means useing a av with out the proper genes will put you in the boat as the person you are attacking, it will remove your regen ability. That is why the other pb's dont use them, what is the use of cutting off the oppents regen if you cut your own off as well.

    Now does kaname have the genes to use av weapons, from what we have seen so far I would have to say no. If he did he would be able to take ahold of av weapons with out getting hurt.

    you're the one missing the whole point. Pay attention to what you're reading. I've already discussed how the lightning cant be a sign of rejection, if that's the case then everyone can suffer a little electrocution or get burned to be able to use a weapon, the point is IF rejection means the ability to use or can't use the weapon, your definition of rejection means that person CAN STILL USE the weapon as long as they can stand the pain, ex Kaname. He CAN USE it despite the effects so what does this mean to you?



    The side effects are more then just getting burnt, a wound from a av weapon removes the vampires regen ability, the burn is a wound, hence the users regen ability is removed. There is no use in handycaping the oppent if you get the same handycap.
    The page with yuki proves that the lightning is the rejection effect, if you dont want to belive your own eyes that is fine with me, it is impossible to get some one to see some thing if they refuse to consider it exists.
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    Re: anti-vampire weapons...

    Post by juliet on Thu Jun 02, 2011 10:31 pm

    rumland wrote:The side effects are more then just getting burnt, a wound from a av weapon removes the vampires regen ability, the burn is a wound, hence the users regen ability is removed. There is no use in handycaping the oppent if you get the same handycap.

    Who is getting hurt from using anti-vampires? Yuuki, Zero or Kaname? did you see Kaname getting hurt when he took the blade that killed Haruka? This does not make sense if the same rules can not be applied to all cases.

    rumland wrote:The page with yuki proves that the lightning is the rejection effect, if you dont want to belive your own eyes that is fine with me, it is impossible to get some one to see some thing if they refuse to consider it exists.

    Again, please a rejection is a rejection, the weapon would not even function in Yuuki's hands if it had rejected her. Yuuki had to tolerate, Artemis electric reaction and then it passed. Kaname tolerated the weapons reaction when he was younger and he was not hurt. Yuuki could wield Artemis and use it. Kaname tolerated the weapon and could use it. So there is no rejection since there is tolerance. Anyway I do not persist any longer. For me the weapon can not be the cause of it.




    Last edited by juliet on Thu Jun 02, 2011 10:39 pm; edited 1 time in total






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    Re: anti-vampire weapons...

    Post by rumland on Thu Jun 02, 2011 11:41 pm

    juliet wrote:
    rumland wrote:The side effects are more then just getting burnt, a wound from a av weapon removes the vampires regen ability, the burn is a wound, hence the users regen ability is removed. There is no use in handycaping the oppent if you get the same handycap.

    Who is getting hurt from using anti-vampires? Yuuki, Zero or Kaname? did you see Kaname getting hurt when he took the blade that killed Haruka? This does not make sense if the same rules can not be applied to all cases.

    rumland wrote:The page with yuki proves that the lightning is the rejection effect, if you dont want to belive your own eyes that is fine with me, it is impossible to get some one to see some thing if they refuse to consider it exists.

    Again, please a rejection is a rejection, the weapon would not even function in Yuuki's hands if it had rejected her. Yuuki had to tolerate, Artemis electric reaction and then it passed. Kaname tolerated the weapons reaction when he was younger and he was not hurt. Yuuki could wield Artemis and use it. Kaname tolerated the weapon and could use it. So there is no rejection since there is tolerance. Anyway I do not persist any longer. For me the weapon can not be the cause of it.


    I have explaineed my self and why I belive it is the rejection function, as well as the effects it gives, 1 being burn damage from the energy, 2 being the injury cutting off the vampires regen ability.
    If you can link me any prof that is not the rejection feature of the weapon I will be glad to see it.
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    Re: anti-vampire weapons...

    Post by Administration Team on Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:44 am

    For the convenience of both sides, remarks that are more personal have been removed.

    As this is tiring and time consuming for the board, please refrain from using personal attacks and initializing into a debate if you cannot come forward with well-grounded arguments. At least agree to disagree, in the way that other members have ended such debates in the past.

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    The certain debate leads to nowhere therefore if not stopped the thread will close to cool the discussions and the members that continued to provoke or to persist will be banned without further notice. This conditions also applies to all the threads of the board. As long as there are arguements there is dicsussion but personal attacks and blind persistance won't be tolerated.

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    Re: anti-vampire weapons...

    Post by Bloodredhead on Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:17 am

    i havent read the whole thread but i wanted to give my opinion on the anti-vampire weapons.

    in relation to BR responding and obeying kanames command in chapter 46. i'm wondering if BR took his blood just like it did with zero. in chapter 46 yuuki ask aloud why BR is drinking blood from zero. http://www.mangareader.net/104-2172-14/vampire-knight/chapter-46.html
    i wonder if this happened with kaname when he used it in the past. it seems to me that BR needs blood to fuel its power, so it took from zero and may have taken from kaname in the past. that would explain why it would recognise kaname's blood. also he has the blood of the hooded lady in him and BR may also recognise this, as it was born from the furnace that had the HW blood and heart in.

    with kaname and the weapon he is carrying at the moment i'm unsure whether it is an anti-vampire weapon but then again he did kill aidou-dono with it so i think it might be. i'm not sure but i dont think all kurans can carry anti-vampire weapons. kaname was able to in the past, but when rido woke him with the blood of the baby, i wonder if that child didnt have the ability so its had an effect on kaname's. he's absorbed that blood and its inability to hold antivampire weapons, hence why the sword was affecting him and doesnt seem to like him holding it for long periods of time. just a thought.
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    Re: anti-vampire weapons...

    Post by nina on Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:39 am

    bloodredhead wrote: with kaname and the weapon he is carrying i'm unsure whether it is an anti-vampire weapon but then again he did kill aidou-dono with it so i think it might be. i'm not sure but i dont think all kurans can carry anti-vampire weapons. kaname was able to in the past but when rido woke him with the blood of the baby, i wonder if that child didnt have the ability so its had an effect on kaname's. just a thought.


    The sword with which Kaname killed Aidou-dono and Hanadagi is an anti-vampire sword … most likely is the same sword that Rido brought into the fight with Haruka and eventually killed him with that, and also with the same sword Rido sacrificed the baby Kaname.

    So your theory about the murder of baby Kaname and how it might his blood affected Kaname’s anti-vampire ability it might has potentials … hm.

    On the other hand though Kaname wield the same sword at the fight between Rido and Haruka and he didn’t have any side-effect. (???) In fact he had the intention of killing him with that sword ...





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    Re: anti-vampire weapons...

    Post by juliet on Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:42 am

    nina wrote:
    bloodredhead wrote: with kaname and the weapon he is carrying i'm unsure whether it is an anti-vampire weapon but then again he did kill aidou-dono with it so i think it might be. i'm not sure but i dont think all kurans can carry anti-vampire weapons. kaname was able to in the past but when rido woke him with the blood of the baby, i wonder if that child didnt have the ability so its had an effect on kaname's. just a thought.


    The sword with which Kaname killed Aidou-dono and Hanadagi is an anti-vampire sword … most likely is the same sword that Rido brought into the fight with Haruka and eventually killed him with that, and also with the same sword Rido sacrificed the baby Kaname.

    So your theory about the murder of baby Kaname and how it might his blood affected Kaname’s anti-vampire ability it might has potentials … hm.

    On the other hand though Kaname wield the same sword at the fight between Rido and Haruka and he didn’t have any side-effect. (???) In fact he had the intention of killing him with that sword ...

    I was examing the potentials of the anti-vampire drawing energy when they are used to kill

    example bloody rose; ok it drains blood
    kaname's sword; fries hands
    but there is weapon that does not fall in this theory; artemis...when Yuuki hurts Rido, there is no side effect,so can that theory have grounds?






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