Vampire Knight & Manga Forum

In order to fully enjoy the board and it's function, you can always log in or sign up to an account. Thank you...
Vampire Knight & Manga Forum

Α forum dedicated to Hino's Matsuri best-seller manga Vampire Knight and the manga we love

Gallery


Latest topics

» Links for Other Vampire Knight Forums and Sites that you like and enjoy!!
Sun Aug 21, 2016 7:25 pm by Saphira_Kuran

» VK Memories CH 6!
Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:13 pm by Saphira_Kuran

» New VK Chapter is HERE!
Sun Jun 19, 2016 8:08 pm by Saphira_Kuran

» VK Memories
Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:59 pm by Saphira_Kuran

» The Final Countdown
Wed Jun 01, 2016 2:52 am by Saphira_Kuran

» New VK Chapter SPOILERS!
Mon Apr 18, 2016 5:47 pm by Saphira_Kuran

» New VK Bonus Ch!!
Fri Dec 18, 2015 12:53 am by Saphira_Kuran

» Translation of 'Fleeting Dreams'
Wed Sep 09, 2015 2:20 am by Saphira_Kuran

» Bunko Editions
Wed Sep 09, 2015 2:18 am by Saphira_Kuran

» New Vampire knight Extra
Wed Sep 09, 2015 2:15 am by Saphira_Kuran

» The Musical (Original and Revive)
Sun Aug 23, 2015 2:40 am by Dreamiel

» NEW CHAPTER IN 2015?
Mon Jun 01, 2015 12:16 am by Unknown00

» Newbie in the forum...
Fri May 01, 2015 7:13 pm by aisan4494

» Who do you think Yuki loves more: Kaname or Zero?
Fri May 01, 2015 7:09 pm by aisan4494

» Zeki or Yume?
Fri May 01, 2015 7:04 pm by aisan4494

» So What will happen of Kaname?
Thu Mar 19, 2015 6:25 pm by matei alina

» Does anybody think Yuki wasted time in Chapter 93?
Tue Dec 30, 2014 6:49 am by HomieV

» Symbolism Blog on VK & New Novel!!
Wed Dec 17, 2014 6:39 pm by Kara

» Ever "missed" a Chapter?
Tue Oct 14, 2014 1:35 am by Katherine

» What kind of feeling?
Mon Oct 06, 2014 1:03 am by Saphira_Kuran

We and the Youtube

Poll

would you like to read a sequel of vk?or is hino thinking of writing one?
59% 59% [ 24 ]
27% 27% [ 11 ]
15% 15% [ 6 ]

Total Votes : 41

Friends


Terry Candy


    Yuuki and Zero's romance

    Share
    avatar
    Akaruisama
    Pureblood Vampire
    Pureblood Vampire

    Posts : 545
    Join date : 2010-09-09
    Location : Poland
    Warning Zone

    Yuuki and Zero's romance

    Post by Akaruisama on Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:09 pm

    First topic message reminder :

    I'm YuMe fan but I also like scenes between Yuuki and Zero. Their relationship always was very interesting so I want to see development in this. These two know each other well and there is many problems and secrets hidden behind. Yuuki has a feelings for Zero as a lover but she also love him like older brother. I think there is a necessity to explain much between them. They will never be happy if they don't do it soon.

    It is weird but I hope there will be more Zeki scenes in the next chapters. Do you think it is possible now?

    PeachBum
    Human

    Posts : 34
    Join date : 2011-02-11

    Re: Yuuki and Zero's romance

    Post by PeachBum on Mon Jul 04, 2011 8:12 am

    sweetsolace wrote:
    ok but its not even a matter of life and death for yuki, was it? it was a matter of her failing or not in her career as Night Class starter, or maybe Zero doesnt want her to fail for something else? far more important?

    Yes, we should wait for further chapters. Maybe Zero is aware that it is a life or death matter. After all, we haven't been let into this thoughts lately and we are not entirely sure as to what the Hunters are doing or what they know.
    avatar
    juliet
    Vampire Knight
    Vampire Knight

    Posts : 5011
    Join date : 2010-05-05
    Location : Deep, deep forest
    Humor : Anytime...
    Warning Zone

    Re: Yuuki and Zero's romance

    Post by juliet on Mon Jul 04, 2011 12:43 pm

    Howl4fun wrote:
    So this attitude is in fact distant from any "romanctic" behavior and I tend to think (but this point only the story can say), that at this phase and under the current circumstances, it very far away from also a romantic act. This does not seem to be his intention anyway..to act romantically that is.


    People are saying that Zero's being caring, not romantic, lol Razz The only debatable "romantic" gesture here is Yuuki going for his neck. And note, I said 'debatable', so I will not argue with your (anyone, not you personally Juliet) opinion on that. Not anymore that is.

    Good LOL at least we agree on something here...

    Yes, we should wait for further chapters. Maybe Zero is aware that it is a life or death matter. After all, we haven't been let into this thoughts lately and we are not entirely sure as to what the Hunters are doing or what they know.

    Yes you are right, the hunters are all keeping a low profile and Zero is certainly a hunter here. I mean his presence at the academy is part of his "duties", so in all good will that he is having to help, he may not going into explaining us the inner throughts from the hunter's part. So we have to wait and see more..in order to judge his true intentions. The fact that he cares, is okay, he cares, but why is he acting in such a haste and manner? that part I think is the tricky one here.






    I' ll show you a sweet dream next time
    avatar
    nina
    Vampire Knight
    Vampire Knight

    Posts : 2812
    Join date : 2010-05-17
    Location : My world lalala Kanameland <3
    Humor : Black sarcasm
    Warning Zone

    Re: Yuuki and Zero's romance

    Post by nina on Mon Jul 04, 2011 1:06 pm

    knightmare wrote: I was responding to Zero's quote about Yuuki being wrong about needing him, that Kaname was the one she needed and the theory it being her blood that told her this, you responded with "2. Yuuki’s blood doesn’t lie, no? … " etc.

    My point was and still is, Zero isn't explicit on what Yuuki's blood told him and his statement is wrong. What Zero thinks and knows of their relationship isn't my point at all, yes I agree that Zero has an understanding of Yuuki's feelings based on what his observations through both Yuuki's blood and her attitude. But Zero is saying that Yuuki doesn't need Zero because she has Kaname. Zero might understands Yuuki's wants, he doesn't necessarily understand her needs and it is shown that yes, Yuuki definitely needs Zero.

    Yuuki definitely needs to restore their relationship <<< this is exactly what she says and if possible to be like the way they used to be, something selfish from her part anyway. But that’s her wish and she is expressing it.

    She calls herself weak. She says she can't take what she wants with her fangs. She's not just saying, she can't take what she wants, but also "with her own fangs". She speculates about what she wants with an unfinished sentence. She can't take blood cos the "person that allows me to do it is not around…". She not referring to him as the one she wants to drink from. I assume she still wants Kaname's blood, but she isn't focused on his blood specifically as her want.

    She calls her self weak because she is so hungry that led her to think her best friend as a food … her hunger it shows all over her face as Zero told her later … Under that light she probably wants Zero’s blood as well.

    The phrase “the person that allows me” most likely isn’t accurate or if you like gives a different vibe … she tells that she can’t take what she wants (with her fangs) because the person she can do it it’s not around, clearly meaning Kaname.

    And concludes by saying that she must be strong or else her objectives (find Kaname, the NC and running from Zero) will go down << another confirmation that the “weak” goes to her hunger which it’s becoming an obstacle here.

    Yes, Yuuki remembers the rule that she's only meant to take blood from Kaname and her affirmation that she would do it regardless, but she mustn't be all that strong about her conviction because minutes later she breaks the rule. Seems to me, that Hino only brought it up to remind us why that rule was imposed (because she admitted her attachment to Zero) and show us that she is now breaking that rule.

    First of all isn’t a rule but a promise … a promise that Yuuki refreshen by saying that even if he didn’t ask her to do it, she’d do it … meaning that is her decision/will. So the impose is cancelled …

    We will see why Hino brought up that promise, why she refreshen/upgrade it just to break it a few minutes later … but your interpretation it doesn’t match with what Yuuki said about her old statement of her attachment to Zero. She admits that she was childish/selfish for telling Kaname those excessive/terrible things <<< seems to me that her old statement is downgraded …

    Ofc is your choice to believe your translation of this passage, I can’t impose you my version.


    Back to the original point. She should take what she wants with her own fangs.
    Zero offers her blood from his wrist and she chooses to bite him with her own fangs. If she were just ceding to blackmail and satisfying Zero's need to see her take blood, she would just take what was offered through his wrist.

    The reason why she’s going for his neck and why not for his wrist it remains to be seen. Right now we only can speculate about it.

    But … you claim that she ONLY cared about Zero and she didn’t want to hurt him by taking his blood, correct? She wasn’t hurt from Zero’s words and act, but she was afraid that ONLY she would hurt him if she accepted his offer.

    So how can you explain that she goes for his neck and not for his wrist; … cuz obviously her move can hurt Zero more! No?

    Can you see the contradiction here?

    Except if you’re implying that she’s doing it out of passion and she will say to Zero how much she loves him romantically and that’s why she jumped on his neck. Cuz in every other way her “attack” can hurt Zero only more. So where it went her ONLY concern about Zero’s feelings???

    Yuuki is a coward and she called herself weak, but Zero doesn't call her that. Other than that, I agree, as I said Zero was particularly guilty of it, but Yuuki was hiding it too up until this point and then she burst like a dam. Zero has more to lose though by exposing himself and he's already revealed how he feels once, he's in love with her and he can't have her, she is with someone else. Is it fair for Yuuki to want to go back to how they used to be?

    Wrong … Zero tells her that he will smash her school-game if she is a coward … so he is the one who says that Yuuki is a coward. Again it’s up to you to believe your version.

    But I agree … Yuuki’s wish to go back in the way they used to be is selfish and unfair for Zero, at least as long as Zero has the same romantic feelings for her and she can’t answer them in the same way.

    So that’s why I said Yuuki thinks that she should keep running from him cuz they hurt each other … Yuuki doesn’t express any intention to answer Zero’s feelings and Zero is hurting from her selfish wish to be the good friends they used to be. (>> Yuuki says in her monologue that something is broken between the two of them and she could do nothing to change that.)

    You're assuming that Yuuki is offended or hurt by it. Zero's already pointed it gun at her and told her he's gonna kill her, this is sweet in comparison. Seriously though, Yuuki isn't hurt by it, she barely notices it in my view, Zero's methods are crude and he's just trying to get Yuuki overide her concern for him.

    I’m assuming that Yuuki is hurt from Zero’s attitude but I didn’t say offended. And I assuming that because she says “we keep hurting EACH OTHER” now, currently, they are doing the same thing which happened in the past as well >> we are always like this Zero.

    Your assumption doesn’t combine with the word “each other”.

    He is using any mean to get her drink his blood, so I’m expecting to have a very good and serious reason for doing that. In fact he is implying Sara, so probably he wants to prevent something serious hence and goes to that extent.

    I think its all too fuzzy to claim exactly what she means because she's not just talking about that moment and because I think its enough that Yuuki is worried about hurting Zero here to make that statement and include the current conversation.

    She’s obviously referring to their relationship as a whole … the current incident is the confirmation that nothing have changed between the two of them >>> they hurting each other >>> we are always like this Zero.
    Now what implications or development their relationship will have … will see it.

    And I want to add something here … we can’t confuse the way Yuuki sees Zero’s attitude with what we can see/know about Zero’s stance. Are two different things for the moment. For example … we know that Zero revealed to Maria that never felt that Yuuki betrayed him … now, this is something that Yuuki doesn’t know, and it’s only a sample of how much Yuuki doesn’t know for Zero. She only receives rejection and “harassment” from him, so her view should be quite different from ours.



    I also think that Yuuki pretty much ignores Zero's threat because she's too focused on the blood, what Zero is offering and seeing what Zero is doing for her. I don't think he could hurt her with his words about smashing the school-game because
    a) she claimed he would hate what she was doing (she's well aware of his attitude)
    b) she knows it would be easier if she gave up, she's just worried about the consequences, she's doing the NC because she has to, she's not that emotionally invested it to be hurt by Zero's words.

    Again if she ignores his threat then she wouldn’t say we’re hurting each other. You can’t ignore the word each other and isolate, the hurt part, only for Zero.

    She knew how Zero will see her attempt, yes; she said it previously to him “our views never met”, that doesn’t change the fact that she isn’t sorry for that or his words aren’t hurtful. Also that doesn’t mean that she’ll stop caring for him. If she was happy about the way their relationship is, then she wouldn’t say…
    1. Something is broken and I can do nothing to fix it …
    2. I want to talk the way we used to.

    His offer is one thing and his words is another … Yuuki can see that his intention is to help her (hence and the wording “treasure your self more), but the coercion is also there … Zero didn’t left any room for Yuuki to discard his offer.

    IMO if it didn’t stake too important things behind that “school-game” and Yuuki’s composure, Zero wouldn’t use this method cuz is the method we’re exploring here and not his intention/offer to help her. I had said it from the first time that I’m not surprised by his gesture itself, to offer his blood … he would do it, without second thought if Yuuki needed to, but the way the scene is depicted is far from romantic for both sides.
    As I said before … maybe Hino has used that way to cover Yuuki’s submission, to justify her … we will see. But that scene definitely doesn’t serve only the LT … there are more serious reasons behind it.





    "... I want to fall down with you to the very farthest depths ... taint me too Kaname"



    Spoiler:

    *wants to sneak under these bed sheets*
    avatar
    sweetsolace
    Vampire Knight
    Vampire Knight

    Posts : 1047
    Join date : 2011-02-24
    Humor : look in the mirror, you'll love it~ ;)
    Warning Zone

    Re: Yuuki and Zero's romance

    Post by sweetsolace on Mon Jul 04, 2011 6:06 pm

    wonderful summation nina, I agree with most of what you said especially this:

    nina wrote:
    First of all isn’t a rule but a promise … a promise that Yuuki refreshen by saying that even if he didn’t ask her to do it, she’d do it … meaning that is her decision/will. So the impose is cancelled …

    We will see why Hino brought up that promise, why she refreshen/upgrade it just to break it a few minutes later … but your interpretation it doesn’t match with what Yuuki said about her old statement of her attachment to Zero. She admits that she was childish/selfish for telling Kaname those excessive/terrible things <<< seems to me that her old statement is downgraded …

    His offer is one thing and his words is another … Yuuki can see that his intention is to help her (hence and the wording “treasure your self more), but the coercion is also there … Zero didn’t left any room for Yuuki to discard his offer.

    I'm wondering about the bolded part, as it seems she is willing to stake that as well? She had bit Zero knowing all that? This makes me think about what you said later here, if Zero really left her no option for refusal. So its not true that she actually has a decision with the matter.


    The reason why she’s going for his neck and why not for his wrist it remains to be seen. Right now we only can speculate about it.

    But … you claim that she ONLY cared about Zero and she didn’t want to hurt him by taking his blood, correct? She wasn’t hurt from Zero’s words and act, but she was afraid that ONLY she would hurt him if she accepted his offer.

    So how can you explain that she goes for his neck and not for his wrist; … cuz obviously her move can hurt Zero more! No?

    Can you see the contradiction here?

    Except if you’re implying that she’s doing it out of passion and she will say to Zero how much she loves him romantically and that’s why she jumped on his neck. Cuz in every other way her “attack” can hurt Zero only more. So where it went her ONLY concern about Zero’s feelings???

    I agree there, Yuki's hurting him more by going for his neck. If what they have is unrequited love then this would certainly be a lot more painful for Zero if Yuki went for his neck, the most intimate spot, in her bloodlust craze, not love, if after she bites him, she still chooses Kaname. That would be more painful, imo. This reminds me of what juliet said somewhere here, that perhaps Yuki going for his neck might mean she is repaying him for the hurt he's also given her--of course this is just me thinking lol but its an idea for a parody of the chapter lol rofl

    But I agree … Yuuki’s wish to go back in the way they used to be is selfish and unfair for Zero, at least as long as Zero has the same romantic feelings for her and she can’t answer them in the same way.

    So that’s why I said Yuuki thinks that she should keep running from him cuz they hurt each other … Yuuki doesn’t express any intention to answer Zero’s feelings and Zero is hurting from her selfish wish to be the good friends they used to be. (>> Yuuki says in her monologue that something is broken between the two of them and she could do nothing to change that.)
    there's a duality in Yuki that's wracking her up and it seems it is this. She wants to keep running away from him so they don't hurt each other, this is her desire for Zero I think since she said she'll do that so he'll have a reason to live, so she was doing it for him. But at the same time she also desires that they can talk again just like the old times, which is what Yuki desires for herself.
    I think this can explain her attachment to Zero.


    She’s obviously referring to their relationship as a whole … the current incident is the confirmation that nothing have changed between the two of them >>> they hurting each other >>> we are always like this Zero.
    Now what implications or development their relationship will have … will see it.
    yes I agree nothing had changed that was why I was thinking there was no development before the bite except tension and lust.
    Yuki ducking to hide when she saw Zero carrying Maria, I think has to do with jealousy, but not the romantic kind(in my opinion). She is jealous because Maria can be close to him when she can't, and this resonates with her desire to talk to him like the old times. She avoids that feeling because she knows its not possible and she had promise to keep running away from him for his sake--you can see her conflicting desires within herself and how she struggles to keep it in a balance.

    And I want to add something here … we can’t confuse the way Yuuki sees Zero’s attitude with what we can see/know about Zero’s stance. Are two different things for the moment. For example … we know that Zero revealed to Maria that never felt that Yuuki betrayed him … now, this is something that Yuuki doesn’t know, and it’s only a sample of how much Yuuki doesn’t know for Zero. She only receives rejection and “harassment” from him, so her view should be quite different from ours.
    yes Yuki has a different point of view than Zero's. There are some things not clarified mainly because Zero keeps his silence (unless someone asks him, which he seems grumpy about when it concerns Yuki)


    She knew how Zero will see her attempt, yes; she said it previously to him “our views never met”, that doesn’t change the fact that she isn’t sorry for that or his words aren’t hurtful. Also that doesn’t mean that she’ll stop caring for him. If she was happy about the way their relationship is, then she wouldn’t say…
    1. Something is broken and I can do nothing to fix it …
    2. I want to talk the way we used to.

    IMO if it didn’t stake too important things behind that “school-game” and Yuuki’s composure, Zero wouldn’t use this method cuz is the method we’re exploring here and not his intention/offer to help her.

    Exactly. if there's nothing wrong Yuki wouldn't want to talk like they used to. That means something had to be mended.
    Zero on the other hand his gestures doesnt surprise me either however I believe his methods (blackmail, coercion, using the "schoolgame" reasoning) are indeed to pressure Yuki to take his blood to stabilize himself. he had left no room for refusal. That is obvious. i think he specifically used her night class as pressure point to make her take his blood. The question is why. And his words seem out of the blue, it makes one think if he was desperate to stabilize her.
    avatar
    Howl4fun
    Common Vampire
    Common Vampire

    Posts : 229
    Join date : 2011-02-24
    Warning Zone

    Re: Yuuki and Zero's romance

    Post by Howl4fun on Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:32 am

    Just curios, why would Yuuki be jealous of Zero being someone else's "friend"? Isn't that a bit possessive? Lol. "If I can't be friends with him then no one can." XD

    Of course, jealousy around friends is common, not saying it's not, but to the point you hide when you see them together? If Yuuki had simply watched them with a sad look on her face, then we'd be talking, but the way she reacted now... I don't know why Hino would stretch it that far only to say it was "Yeah she just got a little jealous that Zero made a new friend." O.o but I know, interpretions...
    avatar
    Knightmare
    Common Vampire
    Common Vampire

    Posts : 228
    Join date : 2011-04-30
    Humor : Satirical
    Warning Zone

    Re: Yuuki and Zero's romance

    Post by Knightmare on Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:38 am

    nina wrote:
    We will see why Hino brought up that promise, why she refreshen/upgrade it just to break it a few minutes later … but your interpretation it doesn’t match with what Yuuki said about her old statement of her attachment to Zero. She admits that she was childish/selfish for telling Kaname those excessive/terrible things <<< seems to me that her old statement is downgraded …
    Saying that to Kaname was cruel and selfish, she knew that at the time, but that still doesn't make them any less true. Breaking her promise to Kaname minutes after making it was naive and weak.


    But … you claim that she ONLY cared about Zero and she didn’t want to hurt him by taking his blood, correct? She wasn’t hurt from Zero’s words and act, but she was afraid that ONLY she would hurt him if she accepted his offer.

    So how can you explain that she goes for his neck and not for his wrist; … cuz obviously her move can hurt Zero more! No?
    Zero offered the blood, her hesitation was over that-taking the blood. There's nothing to suggest that Yuuki thinks/believes taking blood from his neck would hurt him more, so there's no conflict. This is afterall, about what Yuuki thinks. She's still just taking what he offered, his blood. She gave in, in spite of the hurt it causes, she might as well take what she wants with her fangs.

    I actually think she's wrong and that Zero isn't hurt at all by his offering of blood or having Yuuki drink his blood, because he didn't have to do it. I think Yuuki is being oversensitive. Unless she is actually smart enough to recognise the cycle they are plunging themselves into hurts each other, based on past experience.


    But I agree … Yuuki’s wish to go back in the way they used to be is selfish and unfair for Zero, at least as long as Zero has the same romantic feelings for her and she can’t answer them in the same way.

    So that’s why I said Yuuki thinks that she should keep running from him cuz they hurt each other … Yuuki doesn’t express any intention to answer Zero’s feelings and Zero is hurting from her selfish wish to be the good friends they used to be. (>> Yuuki says in her monologue that something is broken between the two of them and she could do nothing to change that.)
    Yuuki's monologue is rather peculiar, I'm waiting on a decent translation to make sense of it. But it sounds like its once again Yuuki is acting weaker than she is, acting like she can't do anything, when she actually can. It annoys me, cos its the total opposite of the shounen hero who believes he can do anything by himself and with his friends' help in spite of overwhelming odds off topic . I only compare because Yuuki is so powerful, but weak minded.

    I call Yuuki selfish, because she's acting on her own desires. Yuuki's statement that she wants to talk to him like before, is because she needs Zero. She wants to use him like she used to, but she shouldn't rely on him when she has Kaname. This is what Maria points out to Yuuki, Yuuki doesn't need Zero, because she belongs to Kaname.

    Yuuki's purposely blind to Zero's feelings about her, she "believes" that he no longer "desires" her, so she can't be worried about not answering his feelings, so she can't be running from him to protect his unrequited feelings. So running away now is for her sake, to protect herself or to protect him from her, from her using him/taking from him. or both.


    I’m assuming that Yuuki is hurt from Zero’s attitude but I didn’t say offended. And I assuming that because she says “we keep hurting EACH OTHER” now, currently, they are doing the same thing which happened in the past as well >> we are always like this Zero.

    Your assumption doesn’t combine with the word “each other”.
    Actually it does, because Zero hurt her last time. But anyway, she's well aware of his attitude and she doesn't give a hoot about the NC, he can't hurt her with that blackmail, so how did he hurt her? Her pride? By telling her what she already knows? I'm seriously trying to see how he hurts her, all I can see is thats she is hurting for him and what he wants her to do.

    Actually, since she's talking about moving forward, she could be hurt because he doesn't respond to her desire to go back to things as they were, but I don't really think so because thats just selfish.


    He is using any mean to get her drink his blood, so I’m expecting to have a very good and serious reason for doing that. In fact he is implying Sara, so probably he wants to prevent something serious hence and goes to that extent.
    I think Zero is just rash and foolish. He just reacts without thinking. He's always thrown himself completely into whatever path he's chosen this week. He might be booksmart and talented, but he's not clever. I don't expect anything deeper than what we see here. Someone who thinks Yuuki's current crazies need a pint of blood to get herself together and cares enough to give it to her.


    we can’t confuse the way Yuuki sees Zero’s attitude with what we can see/know about Zero’s stance. Are two different things for the moment. For example … we know that Zero revealed to Maria that never felt that Yuuki betrayed him … now, this is something that Yuuki doesn’t know, and it’s only a sample of how much Yuuki doesn’t know for Zero. She only receives rejection and “harassment” from him, so her view should be quite different from ours.
    Yeah, while Yuuki is aware of Zero's tsundere attitude, she's just too close and sensitive about him to see what Maria sees.
    avatar
    juliet
    Vampire Knight
    Vampire Knight

    Posts : 5011
    Join date : 2010-05-05
    Location : Deep, deep forest
    Humor : Anytime...
    Warning Zone

    Re: Yuuki and Zero's romance

    Post by juliet on Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:12 am

    Howl4fun wrote:Just curios, why would Yuuki be jealous of Zero being someone else's "friend"? Isn't that a bit possessive? Lol. "If I can't be friends with him then no one can." XD

    Of course, jealousy around friends is common, not saying it's not, but to the point you hide when you see them together? If Yuuki had simply watched them with a sad look on her face, then we'd be talking, but the way she reacted now... I don't know why Hino would stretch it that far only to say it was "Yeah she just got a little jealous that Zero made a new friend." O.o but I know, interpretions...

    Is she obvious jealous about Zero's friendship? What does she say that states that point? sorry can't remember the translation. Do you mind pointing the lines since you mentioned it first?






    I' ll show you a sweet dream next time
    avatar
    Howl4fun
    Common Vampire
    Common Vampire

    Posts : 229
    Join date : 2011-02-24
    Warning Zone

    Re: Yuuki and Zero's romance

    Post by Howl4fun on Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:35 am

    juliet wrote:
    Howl4fun wrote:Just curios, why would Yuuki be jealous of Zero being someone else's "friend"? Isn't that a bit possessive? Lol. "If I can't be friends with him then no one can." XD

    Of course, jealousy around friends is common, not saying it's not, but to the point you hide when you see them together? If Yuuki had simply watched them with a sad look on her face, then we'd be talking, but the way she reacted now... I don't know why Hino would stretch it that far only to say it was "Yeah she just got a little jealous that Zero made a new friend." O.o but I know, interpretions...

    Is she obvious jealous about Zero's friendship? What does she say that states that point? sorry can't remember the translation. Do you mind pointing the lines since you mentioned it first?

    Hmm, it was definetely her subconscious mind speaking, seeing as she hid abruptly like that and didn't know why she did so afterwards. But if it was not triggered by jealousy then what was it? O.o Not to mention when she afterwards keeps thinking of the promise she made to Kaname, remembering her words about Zero to him and feeling sorry in her mind. I thought the point of it all is her symbolic speaking thinking that "I'm sorry that I've feelings for him too, you still mean so much to me." I mean, even Kaname knows this (chap 49, 52 and 61), which I thought was the point of the "hug" too. But like I said, it's just my interpretion of it so if you've another let me hear. =)


    I won't be responding in a some hours though, have to head off to work bounce (just saying, since people here seem to respond almost right away unless they don't respond at all, lol)
    avatar
    sweetsolace
    Vampire Knight
    Vampire Knight

    Posts : 1047
    Join date : 2011-02-24
    Humor : look in the mirror, you'll love it~ ;)
    Warning Zone

    Re: Yuuki and Zero's romance

    Post by sweetsolace on Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:57 am

    Howl4fun wrote:Just curios, why would Yuuki be jealous of Zero being someone else's "friend"? Isn't that a bit possessive? Lol. "If I can't be friends with him then no one can." XD

    Of course, jealousy around friends is common, not saying it's not, but to the point you hide when you see them together? If Yuuki had simply watched them with a sad look on her face, then we'd be talking, but the way she reacted now... I don't know why Hino would stretch it that far only to say it was "Yeah she just got a little jealous that Zero made a new friend." O.o but I know, interpretions...

    I think you misunderstand my point, I wasn't saying Yuki's being possessive and she got jealous because he has a new friend.
    Here's what I said:
    She is jealous because Maria can be close to him when she can't, and this resonates with her desire to talk to him like the old times. She avoids that feeling because she knows its not possible and she had promise to keep running away from him for his sake--you can see her conflicting desires within herself and how she struggles to keep it in a balance.

    the whole session with Maria claiming to take Zero from her and accomplishing it woke Yuki's inner desires; to talk to him like they used to and not be enemies anymore. Because she had been avoiding the issue since she got to the association, she never had to face it, but Maria made her remember that desire again. The ducking meant she was still trying NOT to confront that desire, that she wanted to be with him like in the past (as friends). Personally I don't think she was jealous romantically with Maria, since she doesn't own Zero in the first place (they were not on friendly terms with each other).


    But if it was not triggered by jealousy then what was it? O.o Not to mention when she afterwards keeps thinking of the promise she made to Kaname, remembering her words about Zero to him and feeling sorry in her mind. I thought the point of it all is her symbolic speaking thinking that "I'm sorry that I've feelings for him too, you still mean so much to me." I mean, even Kaname knows this (chap 49, 52 and 61), which I thought was the point of the "hug" too. But like I said, it's just my interpretion of it so if you've another let me hear. =)

    well I did say it was jealousy, but now maybe I'll change my mind. It's not jealousy, because she doesn't own Zero in the first place. It looks more like envy, because she desires what she thought she can't have.
    about the promise to Kaname, it was about drinking only his blood, which she's desperate to have. She nearly violated that promise when she thought of taking Yori's blood, but since Yori didn't make any direct offer and even laughed at her, that nulled it. Zero directly made an offer and coerce her to make a decision to take his blood.
    avatar
    nina
    Vampire Knight
    Vampire Knight

    Posts : 2812
    Join date : 2010-05-17
    Location : My world lalala Kanameland <3
    Humor : Black sarcasm
    Warning Zone

    Re: Yuuki and Zero's romance

    Post by nina on Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:27 pm

    sweetsolace wrote: I'm wondering about the bolded part, as it seems she is willing to stake that as well? She had bit Zero knowing all that? This makes me think about what you said later here, if Zero really left her no option for refusal. So its not true that she actually has a decision with the matter.

    I’m wondering too. To tell you the truth, my impression is that Yuuki’s clarity and judgement at the moment are a mess … her needs, her wishes, her thoughts, her decisions and her actions are controversial …

    I agree there, Yuki's hurting him more by going for his neck. If what they have is unrequited love then this would certainly be a lot more painful for Zero if Yuki went for his neck, the most intimate spot, in her bloodlust craze, not love, if after she bites him, she still chooses Kaname. That would be more painful, imo. This reminds me of what juliet said somewhere here, that perhaps Yuki going for his neck might mean she is repaying him for the hurt he's also given her--of course this is just me thinking lol but its an idea for a parody of the chapter lol

    Haha … I had something else in mind when I said that Yuuki by jumping on his throat most likely will hurt him more, but eventually what you said could be another reason.
    I was thinking mostly Zero’s past experience … he became a vampire by a bite on his neck … also Shizuka bit him again when he was immobilized and Yuuki was there and begged Shizuka to stop hurting Zero. So in short he has a trauma and Yuuki knows it. Ergo the words “we keep hurting each other” and “we are always like this” the moment she jumps on him I think it might have this meaning. Yuuki will hurt him again and she knows it or at least that could be a logical assumption from her point of view.

    However Yuuki is not Shizuka … but as I said before we should look Yuuki’s words and actions under the light of the impression she probably has for Zero. She thinks that at least a part of him hates her … hates the PB Yuuki … so a bite on his neck by a PB could awake bad memories for him …

    So the only thing that could sugar her jump would be to tell to him that she loves him, but I don’t think this is possible especially for the time being.



    knightmare wrote: Saying that to Kaname was cruel and selfish, she knew that at the time, but that still doesn't make them any less true. Breaking her promise to Kaname minutes after making it was naive and weak.

    Her words were childish/selfish and excessive/terrible things … for me this is an updated insight of how Yuuki feels NOW about her OLD statement.
    Also this doesn’t mean that her attachment to Zero as a beloved person vanished, but maybe only her impression that she can’t be quenched fully from Kaname’s blood. Are two different things.

    She is breaking her decision not to take blood from anybody else under a coercion … Zero didn’t left her any other option there.

    But as I said above … for me Yuuki’s behaviour is weird and she contradicts her self.


    Zero offered the blood, her hesitation was over that-taking the blood. There's nothing to suggest that Yuuki thinks/believes taking blood from his neck would hurt him more, so there's no conflict. This is afterall, about what Yuuki thinks. She's still just taking what he offered, his blood. She gave in, in spite of the hurt it causes, she might as well take what she wants with her fangs.

    I actually think she's wrong and that Zero isn't hurt at all by his offering of blood or having Yuuki drink his blood, because he didn't have to do it. I think Yuuki is being oversensitive. Unless she is actually smart enough to recognise the cycle they are plunging themselves into hurts each other, based on past experience.

    I answer above to sweetsolace why I think Yuuki it might hurt him more by jumping on his neck << from her point of view.

    It wasn’t hesitation … it was a clear and loud rejection …

    Zero: Drink it my blood (he bites his wrist letting his blood flow, before even talks to her << viz he’s doing it on purpose to narrowing her options)
    Yuuki: Turns her head away (showing refusal)
    Zero: If you continue being like this, fooling around (or a coward) I will smash your school-game right now
    Yuuki: I can’t take it … I don’t wish for such thing (2nd refusal)
    Zero: Then I’ll smash it … you who let your true desires show on your face, shouldn’t be entrusted with their business (I guess he means the DC/NC)
    Yuuki: Treasure your self more
    Yuuki’s thoughts (I’ll rephrased to convey better the context)>>> why we are always like this … we can’t move forward but we only hurt EACH OTHER >> takes his wrist closer, hesitates and then jumps on his neck thinking “we are always like this Zero”

    If you want to believe that ONLY Yuuki thinks that she’ll hurt Zero and she isn’t hurt from him then I can’t force you, to.
    For me it’s crystal clear what Yuuki means by saying we are always hurt EACH OTHER, we are always like this Zero …


    Yuuki's monologue is rather peculiar, I'm waiting on a decent translation to make sense of it. But it sounds like its once again Yuuki is acting weaker than she is, acting like she can't do anything, when she actually can. It annoys me, cos its the total opposite of the shounen hero who believes he can do anything by himself and with his friends' help in spite of overwhelming odds. I only compare because Yuuki is so powerful, but weak minded.

    I have a pretty good idea from Yuuki’s monologue. But as I said above I think she is a mess … and I’m saying that not only judging from her current contradictions but also by comparing the Yuuki at the HQ and her first days in the academy with the Yuuki now, especially after Sara’s arrival at the academy.
    At first she showed confidence and strength whereas now seems like a totally different person, weak, disorientated, lost …

    I call Yuuki selfish, because she's acting on her own desires. Yuuki's statement that she wants to talk to him like before, is because she needs Zero. She wants to use him like she used to, but she shouldn't rely on him when she has Kaname. This is what Maria points out to Yuuki, Yuuki doesn't need Zero, because she belongs to Kaname.

    I only partly agree with you … the fact that she has Kaname doesn’t mean that she doesn’t need or she shouldn’t need, her best friend by her side, especially now that she has difficulties and she’s all alone. But yes considering that Zero has romantic feelings for her, is a selfish wish to go back the way they used to be. On the other hand Yuuki seems like she believes that Zero has no longer such feelings … naïve yes, but his whole hostile attitude towards her, convinced her for the opposite.

    Yuuki's purposely blind to Zero's feelings about her, she "believes" that he no longer "desires" her, so she can't be worried about not answering his feelings, so she can't be running from him to protect his unrequited feelings. So running away now is for her sake, to protect herself or to protect him from her, from her using him/taking from him. or both.

    She wants to run away from him because she is hurting of the way their relationship is (enemies) and cuz she believes that Zero hates her because she is a PB<< viz she is hurting him back with her presence.
    She says so, referring on their relation … “something is broken and I could do nothing to fix it”. However a sec later she is expressing that wish.
    But don’t tell me that the fact that she rejected him as a man didn’t put an extra burden on her shoulders or a shadow over their relationship! I think most of us would have such an example from our lives … we know that isn’t only difficult for the person who’s been rejected, but and for the other party.

    And btw I thought that the majority of Zekis supported that Yuuki is the one who should make the first step in order to restore their relation or their communication at least. Now what happened? Yuuki is doing the first step; she is roughly rejected and now is again the one who’s wrong here … ????

    Actually it does, because Zero hurt her last time. But anyway, she's well aware of his attitude and she doesn't give a hoot about the NC, he can't hurt her with that blackmail, so how did he hurt her? Her pride? By telling her what she already knows? I'm seriously trying to see how he hurts her, all I can see is thats she is hurting for him and what he wants her to do.

    Actually, since she's talking about moving forward, she could be hurt because he doesn't respond to her desire to go back to things as they were, but I don't really think so because thats just selfish.

    Zero constantly is hurting her … he is hostile, rough and he is mocking her. The fact that he pointed a gun towards her is huge yes, but isn’t the only thing that he did … is like you’re supporting that if a person had been beaten up badly in the past can’t be hurt from a lesser blow … I can’t follow your logic.

    And how you conclude that she doesn’t give a hoot about the NC? On the contrary … she says that it would be easier for her to run away but she’s afraid of what will happen with her NC if she does so … I can’t understand where you based your assumption. ???

    You can’t see how he is hurting her cuz you can’t/want to see his coercion. And yes the fact that she honestly tells him that she wants to restore their relationship and he treats her the way he did is hurtful. Selfish or not is hurtful.

    I think Zero is just rash and foolish. He just reacts without thinking. He's always thrown himself completely into whatever path he's chosen this week. He might be booksmart and talented, but he's not clever. I don't expect anything deeper than what we see here. Someone who thinks Yuuki's current crazies need a pint of blood to get herself together and cares enough to give it to her.

    If so, then his coercion is double worse than it seems to be. But I expect that there are more things behind his action and he was implying Sara …

    Sweetsolace I agree with you.cheers Yuuki wants to restore their previous status viz being friends again like they used to be (<< that’s what she says to herself and to Zero openly).






    "... I want to fall down with you to the very farthest depths ... taint me too Kaname"



    Spoiler:

    *wants to sneak under these bed sheets*
    avatar
    Howl4fun
    Common Vampire
    Common Vampire

    Posts : 229
    Join date : 2011-02-24
    Warning Zone

    Re: Yuuki and Zero's romance

    Post by Howl4fun on Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:34 pm

    The ducking meant she was still trying NOT to confront that desire, that she wanted to be with him like in the past (as friends). Personally I don't think she was jealous romantically with Maria, since she doesn't own Zero in the first place (they were not on friendly terms with each other).

    It's not jealousy, because she doesn't own Zero in the first place.

    By definition,
    jealousy is a secondary emotion and typically refers to the negative thoughts and feelings of insecurity, fear, and anxiety over an anticipated loss of something that the person values, particularly in reference to a human connection.
    It doesn't have anything to do with "owning" that person. Zero got jealous around Yuuki and Kaname alot during the first arc, and he didn't "own" Yuuki either. Jealousy is simply seeing something or someone you like being more familiar with someone else than you. Whether Yuuki's actions here were based on friendly or romantic jealousy, is pretty much up to interpretions.
    avatar
    sweetsolace
    Vampire Knight
    Vampire Knight

    Posts : 1047
    Join date : 2011-02-24
    Humor : look in the mirror, you'll love it~ ;)
    Warning Zone

    Re: Yuuki and Zero's romance

    Post by sweetsolace on Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:07 pm

    nina wrote:I was thinking mostly Zero’s past experience … he became a vampire by a bite on his neck … also Shizuka bit him again when he was immobilized and Yuuki was there and begged Shizuka to stop hurting Zero. So in short he has a trauma and Yuuki knows it. Ergo the words “we keep hurting each other” and “we are always like this” the moment she jumps on him I think it might have this meaning. Yuuki will hurt him again and she knows it or at least that could be a logical assumption from her point of view.

    However Yuuki is not Shizuka … but as I said before we should look Yuuki’s words and actions under the light of the impression she probably has for Zero. She thinks that at least a part of him hates her … hates the PB Yuuki … so a bite on his neck by a PB could awake bad memories for him …

    So the only thing that could sugar her jump would be to tell to him that she loves him, but I don’t think this is possible especially for the time being.
    I agree we share the same views, I think Yuki's point of view is important to see how she views the entire act. moreover there's that fact zero left no room for refusal... i think zero will allow her to bite him.

    howl4fun wrote:By definition,
    jealousy is a secondary emotion and typically refers to the negative thoughts and feelings of insecurity, fear, and anxiety over an anticipated loss of something that the person values, particularly in reference to a human connection.
    It doesn't have anything to do with "owning" that person. Zero got jealous around Yuuki and Kaname alot during the first arc, and he didn't "own" Yuuki either. Jealousy is simply seeing something or someone you like being more familiar with someone else than you. Whether Yuuki's actions here were based on friendly or romantic jealousy, is pretty much up to interpretions.

    so how would you say that Yuki was already jealous by that single action she did of ducking when she saw Zero carrying Maria? Does her thoughts say, "I feel so insecure, I feel so angry" ? Instead she thinks she doesn't understand why she ducked when she saw him. There was no insight to her feelings. There was no insight to her thoughts when Maria said she'll take Zero, instead she thinks "We can only be enemies.. that's the only answer I could think of"

    Now... Why does she think this way if her "rival" is supposedly asking to take Zero from her? If she felt even remotely jealous at that moment, shouldn't she have lied to Maria, who will take Zero from her, and say something like, "Why do you want to take him away when he's mine?" so why does she answer they can only be enemies

    this was my definition of jealousy by the dictionary I have:
    1. Showing extreme cupidity; painfully desirous of another's advantages
    2. Suspicious or unduly suspicious or fearful of being displaced by a rival
    she showed none of this. By keeping her thoughts ambiguous, she has not left any room for her actions to be interpreted as jealousy. So yes, that's why I was explaining it in another context more in line with what Yuki decides to do next.
    "we can only be enemies... that's the only answer i could think of" - expresses her feelings of inevitability towards their broken relationship, that she is helpless to do anything about
    "get a grip. why did I have to duck when I know he can sense me anyway?" - similar with what she did in chapter 60 when she greeted him awkwardly and later thought, "im so stupid..why did I say that?" to me it seems this shows that there is something wrong between them now, its not the same anymore. Because if there's nothing wrong then Yuki wouldn't duck like she did, she wouldn't feel stupid for greeting him in chapter 60, and in here, she would not feel anything wrong to continue watching them. But I think to her, something has changed, its not the same anymore when they were friends, so if she sees them like that to her it would be wrong. Remember that Yuki knows how Zero feels for her.

    "Zero I want us to talk like in the past" - again this expresses her inner desire to be the way they were before, no longer enemies

    "Why do we always end up hurting each other? We are always like this, Zero" - this line summarizes the whole. Yuki can't help hurting him with her feelings for kaname, her desire for his blood, and her inner desire to talk to him again. Zero can't help hurt her by showing he still cares for her despite his feelings for her, and is now going the extra mile to sacrifice a part of him to give her blood
    avatar
    Howl4fun
    Common Vampire
    Common Vampire

    Posts : 229
    Join date : 2011-02-24
    Warning Zone

    Re: Yuuki and Zero's romance

    Post by Howl4fun on Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:38 pm

    so how would you say that Yuki was already jealous by that single action she did of ducking when she saw Zero carrying Maria? Does her thoughts say, "I feel so insecure, I feel so angry" ? Instead she thinks she doesn't understand why she ducked when she saw him. There was no insight to her feelings. There was no insight to her thoughts when Maria said she'll take Zero, instead she thinks "We can only be enemies.. that's the only answer I could think of"

    Now... Why does she think this way if her "rival" is supposedly asking to take Zero from her? If she felt even remotely jealous at that moment, shouldn't she have lied to Maria, who will take Zero from her, and say something like, "Why do you want to take him away when he's mine?" so why does she answer they can only be enemies
    How could she say "No, you can't have Zero, he's mine" to Maria O.o She's engaged to Kaname, as even Maria pointed out, "You're his fiancee, so you don't need Zero... right?" and like you said, her answer in summary is "It's just that we're enemies... that's all we can ever be...". (sounds like such a build up, lol x3)

    As for the rest, of course it leaves room for interpretions. It's not only about this chapter, but taking the whole story in context of what the relationship between Zero and Yuuki is. Whether you believe it's just friendship/unrequited love or not. Maybe this is when it'll reach its resolve and we'll see what Yuuki really feels. Though I doubt that as even if she goes through with the bite, it'll probably still be left ambigious as to what his blood felt like for her. But neither of us can say that it's a fact she got jealous because of friendship/romantic feelings. I presented mine as an interpretion and I'll respect yours as a different one, but as a "fact", sorry, I don't think so. You're basing that on your belief that Yuuki have no romantic feelings for Zero just like my belief is that she has. But we'll see what future chapters have in store for us.


    Last edited by Howl4fun on Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:49 pm; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : grammar)
    avatar
    Knightmare
    Common Vampire
    Common Vampire

    Posts : 228
    Join date : 2011-04-30
    Humor : Satirical
    Warning Zone

    Re: Yuuki and Zero's romance

    Post by Knightmare on Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:43 pm

    nina wrote:
    I’m wondering too. To tell you the truth, my impression is that Yuuki’s clarity and judgement at the moment are a mess … her needs, her wishes, her thoughts, her decisions and her actions are controversial …
    Yuuki's personality has always been erratic, thoughtless, easily distracted, emotional, only now she's actually got something she's meant to focus on. Personally, the fact that Maria is posing a threat to taking Zero away really seems to answer why she can't think straight, since she hasn't faced her decisions and the idea that someone might come between her and her attachment to Zero, with Kaname she didn't have to let go. She was just as weird and erratic when she thought Kaname was leaving her and when he did.


    I was thinking mostly Zero’s past experience … he became a vampire by a bite on his neck … also Shizuka bit him again when he was immobilized and Yuuki was there and begged Shizuka to stop hurting Zero. So in short he has a trauma and Yuuki knows it. Ergo the words “we keep hurting each other” and “we are always like this” the moment she jumps on him I think it might have this meaning. Yuuki will hurt him again and she knows it or at least that could be a logical assumption from her point of view.
    Yuuki is concerned for Zero before she goes for it, she's concerned for him because of what he's offering of himself, I'm not sure what other explanation there would be for a "treasure yourself more" wish. In her view, he's already hurt/vulnerable whatever and she's worried for him, before she makes the decision to drink his blood.

    I don't think Yuuki was specifically concerned for Shizuka biting him on the neck. Except for the moment where Yuuki gets upset and asks why Shizuka did it, the fact that Shizuka bites him is almost ignored afterwards, Zero isn't re-traumatised by it. In fact thoughtlessness about that specific neck issue is shown when Yuuki goes and bites his neck the next day and she knows that Zero only gets upset because he still has issues about taking blood. So the neck thing, isn't noted by Yuuki or Zero.


    It wasn’t hesitation … it was a clear and loud rejection …
    LOL, it doesn't matter to me whether it was hesitation or rejection. She rejected the blood for Zero's sake, rather, he was the only obvious reason, I assume she must have other reasons.


    I only partly agree with you … the fact that she has Kaname doesn’t mean that she doesn’t need or she shouldn’t need, her best friend by her side, especially now that she has difficulties and she’s all alone.
    Actually it does in Maria's mind because she's not talking about the context of friends. To bring back the context of Maria's question, she says if Yuuki doesn't need him, then Maria will take him. Yuuki denies that she doesn't not need him (and she just has no choice), so does that mean Maria can't take him? Yuuki isn't asking for a friend, she's asking for Zero and she puts no definition on it. And the last time she went and expressed a need like that, Zero denied the truth of it, believing that Kaname was the one she needed.

    And Yuuki's not alone, she has lots of support around her including her actual best friend and her adoptive father. She's only alone in the sense that she doesn't have her man, does that make Zero his replacement? She was meant to be running away from Zero forever!

    If she can't handle it, she shouldn't do it in the first place. I love someone who is proactive and takes on a challenge and I admired Yuuki for doing it at first. I got happy everytime Yuuki declares herself pro-active, like the GR and then get disappointed at the results and the reality. Its getting painful watching her delay stuff, begging for time to stop, call herself uncharismatic, weak and unreliable and in many ways, worse than when she blames herself for everything. off topic


    And btw I thought that the majority of Zekis supported that Yuuki is the one who should make the first step in order to restore their relation or their communication at least. Now what happened? Yuuki is doing the first step; she is roughly rejected and now is again the one who’s wrong here … ????
    haha, I love Yuuki admitting she needs Zero. Yuuki is making the first step towards getting her crutch back, it's not the same thing. I support Yuuki making the first move towards progressing a relationship with Zero, but not before she gets her head sorted out and resolves everything with Kaname. Though I suspected that Yuuki would need Zero before she got herself sorted out, but I was hoping it would be less emotional and weak and more professional.


    And how you conclude that she doesn’t give a hoot about the NC? On the contrary … she says that it would be easier for her to run away but she’s afraid of what will happen with her NC if she does so … I can’t understand where you based your assumption. ???
    She doesn't care enough to be hurt because she's not emotionally invested, she's duty bound and she already believes she's teetering on failure, her fear of what will happen if she gives up keeps her going, not an emotional attachment to it. And most of all, she's worried about Zero during their conversation.


    You can’t see how he is hurting her cuz you can’t/want to see his coercion. And yes the fact that she honestly tells him that she wants to restore their relationship and he treats her the way he did is hurtful. Selfish or not is hurtful.
    Wrong, I see Zero trying to coerce her, I just don't see the blackmail aspect as specifically hurtful to her, especially in context with the "hurting each other to move forward". I did speculate that maybe Yuuki was hurting because of his "rejection", I just didn't think Yuuki was so selfish to pin so much on it and interpret Zero's reaction as "rejection", especially when he's responding by saying they have the same interest here and he's acting out of a misunderstanding of Yuuki, not seeing her request as real, so not actually rejecting it. I wouldn't disbelieve Yuuki being hurt by it if it were true though.

    I don't honestly care if they hurt each other, the fact that its mutual problem reduces the blame on one or the other. Its an obstacle part of their relationship, part of the drama and angst of a story, obviously they need to get past it in order to get to the good bits. But it does prolong their story and the resolution of it.
    avatar
    juliet
    Vampire Knight
    Vampire Knight

    Posts : 5011
    Join date : 2010-05-05
    Location : Deep, deep forest
    Humor : Anytime...
    Warning Zone

    Re: Yuuki and Zero's romance

    Post by juliet on Tue Jul 05, 2011 5:45 pm

    [quote="Howl4fun"]
    But neither of us can say that it's a fact she got jealous because of friendship/romantic feelings. I presented mine as an interpretion and I'll respect yours as a different one, but as a "fact", sorry, I don't think so. You're basing that on your belief that Yuuki have no romantic feelings for Zero just like my belief is that she has. But we'll see what future chapters have in store for us.

    Would Yuuki go hiding or having these thoughts about Zero and Maria, if her hunger was not in the way? According to my POV of course, a great source of her irritation and her nervousness, is attributed or seems to steem out from her hunger. I am not sure what to say there, because even Yuuki does not know what to say there; I tend to think that she does not know what she wants there or we can not figure it out.

    Hino covers all the emotional responses that you get from Yuuki there with food;

    "Even if he did not ask, I would take only your blood Kaname"... "What my fangs want to snatch"... it comes down to food actually...if you add on top and Yuuki's thoughts about Yori, you suddenly have a mix there very difficult to detach there and say that Yuuki is indeed clearly jealous due to her feelings and not her hunger.

    To keep it short I think that hunger there is leading her actions, creates to her a nervous situation where she goes from the one man that she used to have freedom with (due to their friendly past relationship but now she can't even speak to him normally) and then to the other man she could feed from but he is no longer available.

    I tend to think that what annoys her here in the scene with Maria is not the fact that Maria has a friendly relationship with Zero (as she thinks)as a fact, but the fact that Yuuki has not a good relationship with Zero and at the same time whereas she is hungry, she can not even claim that "lunch" for herself, thus the weakness where she refers to because she thinks that she can not change things.

    But again her hunger is too great to hide and it triggers her act, so when she goes to Zero to state that " I want to be as we were before", Zero's next line is "having to abstain taking blood for that long, must have caused you to think weird stuff ha?" and then he also tells her how her bloodlust is that evident to her face that he can not trust her like this with the control of the school.

    So in other words here Yuuki's hunger is the trigger that if you want to say it, leads her in having peculiar and contradicting thoughts.



    Actually it does in Maria's mind because she's not talking about the context of friends. To bring back the context of Maria's question, she says if Yuuki doesn't need him, then Maria will take him. Yuuki denies that she doesn't not need him (and she just has no choice), so does that mean Maria can't take him? Yuuki isn't asking for a friend, she's asking for Zero and she puts no definition on it. And the last time she went and expressed a need like that, Zero denied the truth of it, believing that Kaname was the one she needed.

    Maria and Yuuki are both vampires so they definetely think and speak in a vampirish way...so want I understood there is that Maria wants to use Zero; she seems to be interested in taking his blood thus it has Ichirou and Shizuka. So I am not sure if she is at the bottom line speaking romantically about Zero or she thinks about his as a replacement for Ichirou. Her interest on Zero does not speak out of original feelings to me, it sounds more like a source of blood.
    Maria seems to had the wrong idea about Yuuki and Zero, apparently, but I think in any case she wants to cover her base there and establish a relationship between her and Zero, relationship unspecified yet. Yuuki is is no state of answering to her, in reality she thinks more of her food. So there you have hunger again, a confusing element that seems to have stressed not only Yuuki but Zero as well. LOL










    I' ll show you a sweet dream next time
    avatar
    sweetsolace
    Vampire Knight
    Vampire Knight

    Posts : 1047
    Join date : 2011-02-24
    Humor : look in the mirror, you'll love it~ ;)
    Warning Zone

    Re: Yuuki and Zero's romance

    Post by sweetsolace on Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:12 pm

    Howl4fun wrote:
    How could she say "No, you can't have Zero, he's mine" to Maria O.o She's engaged to Kaname, as even Maria pointed out, "You're his fiancee, so you don't need Zero... right?" and like you said, her answer in summary is "It's just that we're enemies... that's all we can ever be...". (sounds like such a build up, lol x3)
    what I mean was that if Yuki was jealous since Maria expressed her intention to take Zero it should show from her words but what came out of her lips was that response. And only later did she think about it. I don't think her answer was a build up since it has the same essence Yuki showed in the past chapters. well for me that is

    But neither of us can say that it's a fact she got jealous because of friendship/romantic feelings. I presented mine as an interpretion and I'll respect yours as a different one, but as a "fact", sorry, I don't think so.
    hey I wasn't claiming anything as "fact". its my opinion.

    juliet wrote:To keep it short I think that hunger there is leading her actions, creates to her a nervous situation where she goes from the one man that she used to have freedom with (due to their friendly past relationship but now she can't even speak to him normally) and then to the other man she could feed from but he is no longer available.

    interesting observation there, yes you're right the uncommon thing with Yuki in this chapter was her hunger which was making her fail to think straight or come up with an answer so I think her hunger brings out her vampire nature.
    avatar
    nina
    Vampire Knight
    Vampire Knight

    Posts : 2812
    Join date : 2010-05-17
    Location : My world lalala Kanameland <3
    Humor : Black sarcasm
    Warning Zone

    Re: Yuuki and Zero's romance

    Post by nina on Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:22 pm

    knightmare wrote: Yuuki's personality has always been erratic, thoughtless, easily distracted, emotional, only now she's actually got something she's meant to focus on. Personally, the fact that Maria is posing a threat to taking Zero away really seems to answer why she can't think straight, since she hasn't faced her decisions and the idea that someone might come between her and her attachment to Zero, with Kaname she didn't have to let go. She was just as weird and erratic when she thought Kaname was leaving her and when he did.

    Yuuki seemed to be different the first days at the HQ and at the academy. I said it before …

    I think she is a mess … and I’m saying that not only judging from her current contradictions but also by comparing the Yuuki at the HQ and her first days in the academy with the Yuuki now, especially after Sara’s arrival at the academy.
    At first she showed confidence and strength whereas now seems like a totally different person, weak, disorientated, lost …

    If you believe that all the mess that Yuuki seems to be right now is originated from Maria’s words … then I suppose Maria also said that she will steal Yori as well and Hino owes us a flashback … cuz I believe that Yuuki’s current state has to do with her hunger which starting to become an obstacle to her objectives as she also says … as Zero also says …

    Maria’s words made Yuuki to express her need, viz to restore her relation with Zero …

    Yuuki is concerned for Zero before she goes for it, she's concerned for him because of what he's offering of himself, I'm not sure what other explanation there would be for a "treasure yourself more" wish. In her view, he's already hurt/vulnerable whatever and she's worried for him, before she makes the decision to drink his blood.

    I don’t remember to differ on that O.o … she’s obviously referring to his offer.

    In fact that’s the proof of how Yuuki sees the situation … she thinks that is hurtful for Zero to offer his blood to a vampire hence and the wording “treasure your self”. Logically she’s basing her interpretation on the knowledge she has over Zero’s sufferance and not only that. >>>
    Zero pointed a gun towards her twice and declared war saying that they are enemies, exactly cuz she was a PB, a most hateful being for him, despite the fact that he synchronously revealed that he loves her! Viz his hate was bigger than his love!
    And if I recall well he never took back that he doesn’t hate that she is a PB or that they are no longer enemies. Correct? So how now Yuuki should assume that this is something pleasant for Zero or that she isn’t doing something hurtful by biting him on the neck, moreover since now believe that he probably doesn’t love her anymore!

    That’s why Yuuki is logical to think that by taking his blood and moreover biting him will hurt him.

    I don't think Yuuki was specifically concerned for Shizuka biting him on the neck. Except for the moment where Yuuki gets upset at Shizuka for it, the fact that Shizuka bites him is almost ignored, Zero isn't re-traumatised by it. In fact thoughtlessness about that specific neck issue is shown when Yuuki goes and bites his neck the next day and she knows that Zero only gets upset because he still has issues about taking blood. So the neck thing, isn't noted by Yuuki or Zero.

    Ok then I guess Zero’s past experience was a joyride … he has no trauma, he never scratched the spot where Shizuka bit him, Yuuki never saw that, never begged Shizuka to stop hurting him when she was sucking his blood and in short his hatred towards vampires and especially PBs is unjustified …

    And here comes again IMO your contradiction … if she thought that by just offering his blood from his wrist, was something hurtful for Zero hence and the “treasure your self” then how a bite on his neck is less hurtful for Zero?

    I don’t get it … ???

    LOL, it doesn't matter to me whether it was hesitation or rejection. She rejected the blood for Zero's sake, rather, he was the only obvious reason, I assume she must have other reasons.

    Yes she had … 5 minutes before took the decision to be strong and to not take blood from anyone else.

    Actually it does in Maria's mind because she's not talking about the context of friends.


    And what is Maria’s mind? Does she know the relationship Yuuki had with Zero?
    Does she know better what Yuuki needs from Zero?
    Yuuki frankly told her that there is not that I don’t need him … is that we became enemies <<< this is what it pains her! The fact that they can’t any longer be like they used to … she is in pain cuz as she thinks; she can’t do anything to fix it! She realises that a stranger has more rights over Zero than she has … she sees carrying another vampire whereas she can’t has even a decent conversation with him!

    Yuuki isn't asking for a friend, she's asking for Zero and she puts no definition on it.

    Wrong … she puts a definition when she says that something is broken and I can’t fix it. What she means; she can’t fix their romantic affair?
    She puts again a definition when she says that I want to talk to you like BEFORE! I don’t remember them to be nothing more than friends/”siblings” BEFORE!?

    And the last time she went and expressed a need like that, Zero denied the truth of it, believing that Kaname was the one she needed.

    Haha … that’s really funny … it sounds like, ultimately Zero rejected her romantic feelings and so Yuuki had nothing else to do but accept Kaname as a replacement for Zero … hahaha …

    knightmare wrote: Need isn't love though, its just a one facet of attachment and an example of why Yuuki cannot break her bond to Zero.

    ^^^ This is what you previously said. So if the need it can’t be translated to love and it can’t be translated to friendship then for what Yuuki needs Zero?

    Ofc she needs him for blood supply as it seems but I don't want to downgrade it that much Razz

    And Yuuki's not alone, she has lots of support around her including her actual best friend and her adoptive father. She's only alone in the sense that she doesn't have her man, does that make Zero his replacement?

    I can’t understand why is so difficult to accept that Yuuki it might want her best friend!? Yuuki and Zero never been lovers in the past … she only knew his feelings seconds before they parted … Also in the past had Yori but that never prevent her from needing and seeing Zero as her best friend as well. In fact I don’t believe that their relationship was only as best friends … she obviously has a stronger bond with him … they grown up together for 4 years, she was there and watched Zero’s pain and sufferance every day, she was the one who kept him alive and gladly offered her blood over and over again. He was the most close person for her … is such a big sin to want him back in her life?

    I don’t see that need as a replacement for Kaname … I see it as a need to fill the void that his absence created …


    haha, I love Yuuki admitting she needs Zero. Yuuki is making the first step towards getting her crutch back, it's not the same thing. I support Yuuki making the first move towards progressing a relationship with Zero, but not before she gets her head sorted out and resolves everything with Kaname. Though I suspected that Yuuki would need Zero before she got herself sorted out, but I was hoping it would be less emotional and weak and more professional.

    A crutch??? The fact that she honestly and openly says to him that she wants to talk with him like they used to, isn’t a progression for their relation?
    So I guess the only thing that would satisfies you, would be if Yuuki accept Zero’s romantic feelings and admit that she has the same … other than that they should be enemies for the rest of their lives …

    She doesn't care enough to be hurt because she's not emotionally invested, she's duty bound and she already believes she's teetering on failure, her fear of what will happen if she gives up keeps her going, not an emotional attachment to it. And most of all, she's worried about Zero during their conversation.

    You said she doesn’t give a hoot for the NC … and I was responding on that.

    My words …
    And how you conclude that she doesn’t give a hoot about the NC? On the contrary … she says that it would be easier for her to run away but she’s afraid of what will happen with her NC if she does so … I can’t understand where you based your assumption. ???

    So the “emotional investment” is irrelevant.
    However that doesn’t mean that the project of the NC is not something significant for her … by the success of this attempt depends a lot … not only for Yuuki’s position as the head of the vampires but for the hunters too. And that’s why Zero is so determinate to “stabilize” Yuuki … and says we have a common interest (plus the protection of the DC).

    Yuuki’s “school-game” is her way to hold the fort, if you remember. So yes is a big deal for her … and by saying I’ll smash it, when obviously the NC has great importance for Yuuki is coercion and he hurts her >> “our views never met” …

    If you can’t see that, then I guess we read a different manga.

    Wrong, I see Zero trying to coerce her,

    Good haha … it's a start.

    But you narrowing Yuuki’s hurt only in the past, when obviously she is referring also in the present (>> why we can’t move forward without hurting each other)<< if that is not representing AND the present; … I rest my case!

    Other than that, I have nothing more to add, not avoiding repeating my self.






    "... I want to fall down with you to the very farthest depths ... taint me too Kaname"



    Spoiler:

    *wants to sneak under these bed sheets*
    avatar
    Howl4fun
    Common Vampire
    Common Vampire

    Posts : 229
    Join date : 2011-02-24
    Warning Zone

    Re: Yuuki and Zero's romance

    Post by Howl4fun on Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:01 pm


    Would Yuuki go hiding or having these thoughts about Zero and Maria, if her hunger was not in the way? According to my POV of course, a great source of her irritation and her nervousness, is attributed or seems to steem out from her hunger. I am not sure what to say there, because even Yuuki does not know what to say there; I tend to think that she does not know what she wants there or we can not figure it out.
    Yes, her hunger is making her confused/vulnerable, but I don't see how that would mess with her feelings. Do your feelings about people change when you're hungry? O.o But it's like you said, she doesn't appear to even know herself what she wants, so all we can do for now is theorize.

    But again her hunger is too great to hide and it triggers her act, so when she goes to Zero to state that " I want to be as we were before", Zero's next line is "having to abstain taking blood for that long, must have caused you to think weird stuff ha?" and then he also tells her how her bloodlust is that evident to her face that he can not trust her like this with the control of the school.

    The chapter apparently have alot of different translations, lol. In the version I read she says "I wish I could talk to you like before." Imo, it makes more sense, given as she's sad about having to avoid him all the time. There's no way they can "be like they used to", what they used to be was best friends, even if both of them want to, it's hard to picture them becoming "best friends" again, given both their current relationship and their positions in society. Yuuki should know this, so if that translation is the correct one, she really has some skyhigh hopes. In the other, she just expresses a want of speaking normally to him, instead of the usual of not uttering a word. At least it makes more sense in my OP.

    what I mean was that if Yuki was jealous since Maria expressed her intention to take Zero it should show from her words but what came out of her lips was that response.

    Really? Well, I think we all agree by now that her words and actions contradict all the time, so not sure what difference that would make, lol. I don't see why her words would have to show jealousy to make it canon, she was in no right for it given Zero does not in any way belong to her. When Maria asked, she meant it in a romantic aspect, seeing as she said "You have Kaname, so you don't need Zero, right?" I thought Yuuki's answer was ambigious, she didn't reveal any relationship to him, but she did give that "we're enemies, but I wish we weren't..." vibe. All this 'pretending to be something we're not' all this time looks like build up to me, lol. The ending of 73 I think was the first stage of their (or Yuuki's, at least) "breakdown."/"I can't take it anymore." It's one of the things that makes me love a couple, when their resolution/"getting together" is a big emotional payoff.

    hey I wasn't claiming anything as "fact". its my opinion.

    Well, you gave me the feeling you said her getting jealous out of platonic reasons wasn't anything "left up to interpretions", but if you didn't, then sorry, my mistake.
    avatar
    sweetsolace
    Vampire Knight
    Vampire Knight

    Posts : 1047
    Join date : 2011-02-24
    Humor : look in the mirror, you'll love it~ ;)
    Warning Zone

    Re: Yuuki and Zero's romance

    Post by sweetsolace on Wed Jul 06, 2011 11:49 am

    Howl4fun wrote:
    what I mean was that if Yuki was jealous since Maria expressed her intention to take Zero it should show from her words but what came out of her lips was that response.

    I don't see why her words would have to show jealousy to make it canon, she was in no right for it given Zero does not in any way belong to her. When Maria asked, she meant it in a romantic aspect, seeing as she said "You have Kaname, so you don't need Zero, right?" I thought Yuuki's answer was ambigious, she didn't reveal any relationship to him, but she did give that "we're enemies, but I wish we weren't..." vibe. All this 'pretending to be something we're not' all this time looks like build up to me, lol.

    m not saying that jealousy should be canonized, but that it doesn't exist in my case, since it is ambiguous. we'll just have to agree that any feeling can be inserted in that scene, so for my take I choose envy for all the reasons I've stated it to be so.
    As for maria, i dont feel its romantic, romantic is when she would say (as an Example) "you can take him, he's all yours. Just don't hurt him" but she said, "if you don't want him anymore, I can have him right?" lol it sounds like Zero is being treated like a leftover possession. Razz
    m the only build up i see is Yuki showing that she still wants to be the same way as him before, no longer enemies, but as for Zero's reaction to that... well i guess actions speak louder for him and that was his response.

    The ending of 73 I think was the first stage of their (or Yuuki's, at least) "breakdown."/"I can't take it anymore." It's one of the things that makes me love a couple, when their resolution/"getting together" is a big emotional payoff.
    ..or it can mean the end of their relationship. I see some warning signs that indicate this is the last time they're going to come that close. All the moments of avoidance, then suddenly, this moment of closeness, whose meaning was shot down and downgraded as the Necessity Bite.
    .. IF the bite will happen, Yuki's decision after the bite will determine if ZEKI will finally die as a pairing, as I feel that after this, Zero had accepted his fate as the Giver, never the Receiver, also judging by his actions here it seems he had accept that role despite receiving pain on his end. And Yuki would be completely aware its the last time she's going to hurt Kaname, hence would severe there ties , or he would. I also think she's aware that stabilizing herself is a priority hence consenting to Zero.

    There's that fact they end up hurting each other as stated in yuki's mind means that virtually nothing had changed. If she knows it in herself, what can change her mind? hm. is there something that can change her mind?
    avatar
    mangalover
    Human

    Posts : 46
    Join date : 2011-06-17
    Location : wonderland
    Warning Zone

    Re: Yuuki and Zero's romance

    Post by mangalover on Wed Jul 06, 2011 1:25 pm

    I THINK NOW THERE IS A CHANCE FOR YUUKI AND ZERO'S ROMANCE BEC. THE PROBLEM BEFORE ZERO IS PUSHING YUUKI AWAY BEFORE, BEC. HE FOUND OUT THAT YUUKI IS A PUREBLOOD VAMPIRE AND HIS BELIEVE EVERY VAMPIRE IS AN ENEMY BEC. OF THE MASSACRE HAPPENED TO HIS PARENTS, YOU CAN SEE IN CHAPTER 36 PAGE 38; CHAPTER 37 PAGES 10,11,12. WHO IS THE PERSON YUUKI THINK AFTER SHE AWAKEN AS A VAMPIRE? IT'S ZERO, U CAN SEE IN CHAPTER 36 PAGE 28.

    SO HOPING FOR CHANCES NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE BEC. THE MANGA IS NOT YET OVER.THANK YOU FOR CHAPTER 73 BECAUSE ZERO AND YUUKI CAN TALK TO EACH OTHER LIKE BEFORE.NO MORE AWKWARDNESS LIKE BEFORE AND WILLING TO REGAIN WANT THEY LEFT OFF.
    avatar
    nuitetoile21
    Vampire Knight
    Vampire Knight

    Posts : 726
    Join date : 2010-05-05
    Warning Zone

    Re: Yuuki and Zero's romance

    Post by nuitetoile21 on Wed Jul 06, 2011 2:48 pm

    Please do not use capitals cause are difficult to read and you give the impresion that you are shouting.Thank you.
    avatar
    mangalover
    Human

    Posts : 46
    Join date : 2011-06-17
    Location : wonderland
    Warning Zone

    Re: Yuuki and Zero's romance

    Post by mangalover on Wed Jul 06, 2011 3:15 pm

    nuitetoile21 wrote:Please do not use capitals cause are difficult to read and you give the impresion that you are shouting.Thank you.

    sorry for that. Very Happy peace (^_~)v.
    avatar
    Howl4fun
    Common Vampire
    Common Vampire

    Posts : 229
    Join date : 2011-02-24
    Warning Zone

    Re: Yuuki and Zero's romance

    Post by Howl4fun on Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:24 pm

    Why don't we just agree to disagree, sweet? I think we're both just as confident in our opinions. Smile
    avatar
    juliet
    Vampire Knight
    Vampire Knight

    Posts : 5011
    Join date : 2010-05-05
    Location : Deep, deep forest
    Humor : Anytime...
    Warning Zone

    Re: Yuuki and Zero's romance

    Post by juliet on Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:00 pm

    I have a question to make; in the new chapter (73) Zero says that Yuuki did not betray him to Maria. So there are three options
    here that my thinking goes;

    1. He is lying to Maria as we all see what he thought about her and being a vampire and how he pointed his gun to her (I think that further arguements about this option are not needed).
    2. He was lying even to himself back there and he actually made all that show because he was feeling hurt/jealous that she would leave the academy.
    3. He never felt betrayed/that is his original feelings about vampires in general so he states in a cold manner (now) that it is about attitude and not feelings...

    What do you think?









    I' ll show you a sweet dream next time
    avatar
    Anneliezz
    Pureblood Vampire
    Pureblood Vampire

    Posts : 454
    Join date : 2011-05-25
    Location : Belgium
    Humor : 1.Being a pure(blood) pervert. 2. Installing the day-class-spy-cameras in zero's room 3.WCZF-club!!
    Warning Zone

    Re: Yuuki and Zero's romance

    Post by Anneliezz on Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:22 pm

    juliet wrote:I have a question to make; in the new chapter (73) Zero says that Yuuki did not betray him to Maria. So there are three options
    here that my thinking goes;

    1. He is lying to Maria as we all see what he thought about her and being a vampire and how he pointed his gun to her (I think that further arguements about this option are not needed).
    2. He was lying even to himself back there and he actually made all that show because he was feeling hurt/jealous that she would leave the academy.
    3. He never felt betrayed/that is his original feelings about vampires in general so he states in a cold manner (now) that it is about attitude and not feelings...

    What do you think?



    I think it's the second. I think he tried to hate her back then. It would've been easier to deal with the entire situation if he indeed hated her. In my Pov he doesnt, even though he finds it hard to admit it...
    I mean indeed he pointed his gun at her, but he just couldn't pull the trigger and kissed her, after that he said that they would be enemies, but imo he just haped that in time he would be able to hate her. But he's still helping her now so i guess the hate-feeling still isn't really there yet. I think the gun-pointing was because she left with kaname
    For the third option, i find that zero is more tolerant with some vampires than other (example: aido, maria, yuuki...? no discussion on this last one please,it's just a suggestion)
    So that would leave the second option, i always felt like this were his feelings
    but hey, I'm a zeki after all^^, my Pov might differ from yours xD
    avatar
    meekomeeko
    Human

    Posts : 19
    Join date : 2011-07-08
    Location : Canada
    Warning Zone

    Re: Yuuki and Zero's romance

    Post by meekomeeko on Sat Jul 09, 2011 2:17 am

    I don't like the idea of Yuuki and Kaname dating (Because they are siblings) So I think Yuuki is better off with Zero <3 Zero has been there to protect her from people who almost attacked Yuuki. Idk but i was reading: Zero & Yuuki VampireKnightWiki and I was reading: After the year!
    It said: She eventually realizes that her thirst can't be fully quenched because a vampire's thirst can only be satisfied with the blood of someone they love and a part of her heart is attached to Zero. <3

    Sponsored content

    Re: Yuuki and Zero's romance

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:05 am