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    Kaname's Kuran plan of action is heading where?

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    juliet
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    Kaname's Kuran plan of action is heading where?

    Post by juliet on Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:24 pm

    First topic message reminder :

    I wanted to say that reading the VK fanbook it seems that the Kurans had always a predisposition towards co-existence among the races. This 'attitude" along with their anti-vampire ability always brought them in the center of the events and in opposition with other vampires (example the council and the Ichio fanction).

    I believe that Kaname's plan focuses on this old time theme that we had seen during the first arc. I think a peaceful co-existence seems to be his final purpose.

    During his first time on earth we see that he had fall into a slumber and when he goes to finish the council he says that he "had hesitated the first time" and that after his long slumber nothing has changed in the attitude of the vampires.

    There he expresses his dissapointment about the current vampire society (with the council that seems to exploit both humans and vampires for its egocentric plans of ruling the word as it wishes) and destroys the council on that base.

    We know that kaname's grandfather had established the council after bringing down the monarchy because he did not wish for only one pureblood to run the power but wished all parties to be involved. Yet the council monopolized and abused that power-Ichio in particular- turning it again into a deaf authority.

    So Kaname after his slumber founds out that this system-the council had failed and destroys it.

    Now after taking back the power that belonged to his family in the old times like a vampire leader or representative of the vampires, sets out again to bring his old plan into life. Which is what?

    I believe it's the reason he fought along with the ancestor in the first place; to stop the ones that ruthelessy take advantage of their power and to insert a new foundation for the vampire society.

    First I see him stopping Sarah, then leaving the space open for the youngers and the more innoncent ones (as the night-class who shares his ideals and does not act out of respect and fear as the bees he describes but as friends).

    I think that his motivation in this life is Yuuki, he needs her to be safe as she is the last descedant of the Kurans that has the anti-vampire power (and can rule) and more over she is a bright representative of the Kurans good intentions and wishes (like Yuuri) about co-existence.

    I think that Hino centers more and more the script around this idea. She has even stated that Kaname, Zero, Yuuki, all three are key for the co-existence to be achieved.

    What do you believe about Kaname's actions as seen now and his overall purpose?








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    Re: Kaname's Kuran plan of action is heading where?

    Post by sweetsolace on Tue Sep 27, 2011 9:36 am

    @juliet

    I am talking about Kaname’s plan and not the actual script and the course that is going to take. Sorry if that is not obvious.

    are you kidding me?? you just made a clear path FROM Kaname's plan indications that somehow ended in Kaname's death, and you're telling me you were just talking about Kaname's plan? lol if you're not predicting then did you just define what Kaname's plan is??? And are you SURE it will happen?

    You seem to disagree with Yuuki’s importancy but why?
    no I didn't disagree, I was questioning her importancy as heroine of the story. She has to redeem herself as the main character, and only killing Kaname doesn't make sense for me.


    Apparently there are two ways for kaname;

    One to prohibit
    her to walk that path and keep her to himself (but in that way he would
    make her unhappy; chained Yuuki in image with Rido) and one to support
    her (happy Yuuki smiling with the vase). But isn’t the last image (the
    free Yuuki) the one in /kaname’s mind that shall bring her the ultimate
    happiness?
    I think that Kaname thinks that her happiness is
    indentified with that role. Perhaps Kaname sees that in their eternal
    time, this task is far more important, than binding down Yuuki with him.

    Remember what he said to Kaien; “Yuuki has chosen her own path, I have no means to bind her”.

    That
    still shows his perception that Yuuki will need to achieve her goals in
    order to be happy. But again, I just say I think that this is his
    perception.

    those were his contradictions, and it helped him decide his next moves--which was to let her go.

    yes, he said "I no longer have the means to bind her to me". What are the means he was talking about? chains, padlocks, his love? and was Yuki bound to him? was Kaname enforcing her to do household chores like Kaien does to keep her occupied, and therefore bound to him? How is he binding her?

    Kaname was the one who said before, "Yuki I already know which path you will take.. You have held this hands for so long.."
    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/vampire_knight/v13/c063/13.html
    And now he's saying, "Yuki has already chosen her path" --But what IS her path?

    path to freedom? is that what she wanted? Its what Kaname decided.
    Also see that its Kaname who decided this, not her. He tells her he knows which path she will take, but he also forces her to go on this path by leaving her. The path was forced onto her--Kaname left her and she's forced to be with Kaien and Zero, Kaname tells lies and kills, pitting Yuki to decide to stop him. Its a path he decided she would take, a path he influenced her to take, and a path she had no decision over.

    But do we really know what she's going to do? No. We only know she will stop him--HOW? It doesn't convince me, she can't even do anything to the hunters--when in fact she can control them as a pureblood. And yet she fears for her life while with them, too peace-loving Yuki.

    I said in my post that Kaname wants to be seen by Yuuki as as if he is a threat to co-existence.

    I
    never said that his actions are NOT leading to co-existence,

    the questions were things that needed to be answered by Yuki or anyone, not specifically you. It questions the logic of his actions---if he's indeed planned to kill himself by Yuki's hands because he's demoralizing her, as your post keep reiterating.

    if he
    wants to protects Yuuki, he needs co-existence and if he wants
    co-existence he also needs Yuuki safe because I believe that she will
    become the main pillar,for me that’s one and the same.
    So how can it
    be that Kaname does not support co-existence when he is going extreme
    in order to keep Yuuki safe but also innocent from the crimes that he is
    accused now?
    we're actually NOT SURE of what Kaname's saying, if its a game or its for real. He is so cryptic so Im actually wondering how you can sound certain it would be that simple for him. Obviously he's willing to go through all of this to achieve something, the question is what is that? and how it ties to the events? The path of "Yuki will kill him" only answers one set of questions--what about the rest? whats the volcano for, what does he plan to do with Sara, Isaya or Kaien? What did he plan for Yuki? He says he hesitated in his original plans before and now he's resuming it-- BUT is killing all purebloods just that or is that only a facade, a prologue to his Original Plans? And will this O.P. bring coexistence? is he planning coexistence? do you know?
    is it still about Yuki or his O.P.? if its about Yuki, how?
    this questions need to be answered.


    She already is, it’s actually Kaname that opened for her the way
    to become his substitute as with his absence, the hunters passed the
    Kuran’s legacy to her shoulders. So the typical part has been fulfilled.


    Yuuki is now the representative of the peace treaty, and stands
    where he stood. We all know that she has taken that role in order to
    preserve the prosperity of the vampires, and we all know that she wants
    to try and prove herself at that field.

    BUT WHO is leading the night class now? Not Yuki, SARA. she lost by CHARISMA alone. Rima herself says she needed it to lead. she doesnt have it.
    And she still hasn't noticed she is doing her blood tablets right under her. And you say that she is the substitute for Peace? O_o
    What was the RESPONSE of Yuki soliciting help from the nobles? They were actually reluctant because of Kaname's actions outside, how do you say he had facilitated her entry to become "his substitute" when he did not prepare or aided it by his present actions?
    Kaien was the one who forced her to do Kuran responsibility, to keep her away as you have once said , if Kaname predicted this too then he's going risky here, he left her in a daycare center to be cared for and play with other children---I don't see Yuki being a good leader when she's weak, presently, she needed to drink blood because she cant tolerate tablets, she lacked charisma to lead, her name as Kuran is presently not helping. Her leadership is presently being challenged and even MOCKED. I don't see this as a productive step towards leadership, but more like a daycare center where she is left out of Kaname's path while he goes on to his job.


    So what Kaname’s last message to Kaien: “I killed Ouri, I am
    coming for Sara..” conveys? When he knows that he does not just say that
    to Yuuki but to the current representative of the peace treaty?

    So
    I think that his intention to be perceived as the enemy of co-existence
    is obvious. And that’s the problem that I see here; because he does not
    limit himself to her protection but he tries to invade her ideals, her
    role, her responsibilities and challenges to choose.
    it is like I said previously, we have to ask ourselves what coexistence means right now in vampire knight. If purebloods go down, that will mean peace, right? Tell me im not wrong. Purebloods ARE most often the antagonist in the story. The hunters even liked the idea, but Kaien does not. why Kaien hates it? it means killing and it goes against his school's ideology to try to live together. Yuki goes against it because it kills even the innocent ones.
    Kaien and Yuki's solution is to herd a pack of vampires and humans to show living together is possible, in short they want a REPEAT of THE FIRST ARC---PREFECTS SECRECY galore, meanwhile hiding existence of vampires to humans. BUT where is the PUREBLOODS in this HERD, the purebloods which Kaname is addressing? The nobles say purebloods can only fight purebloods, the hunters don't do anything to enforce law on the purebloods, and now Kaname is killing them ITS WRONG? Now this goes back to the question, if Kaien and Yuki thinks its wrong then whats the solution?
    Yuki's grimreaper service, come all who wants to die I will give it to you? Yagari also said the same thing after the ball incident, "those pbs who want to die come here and we'll give it". But even Isaya says its a ridiculous idea, and yes it is, who would volunteer for death when you can have everything? so what's the REAL solution here?
    What makes Kaname WRONG in killing purebloods?
    How is coexistence done in VK, when whats being shown now is A REPEAT of the first arc? so this is Kaien and Yuki's ideology? a REPEAT?
    What makes Kaname's solution a bad one and why it has to be stopped, according to Yuki?
    I hope I'm getting across here, but what Kaname's doing is seen as bad because of the killing part in my opinion, but what makes it different from Yuki's or Kaien's?
    If Kaien for example says he represents peace and the treaty de blah, then how come he had just ALLOWED the one who will disrupt peace inside his academy--SARA?
    And if Yuki wants to stop Kaname for killing the innocent purebloods, then why is she allowing the one who will disrupt coexistence TO BECOME PRESIDENT instead of her?
    Sara here represents THE IRONY of their ideas.
    So they are against Kaname because he is killing, but they didn't know they already ALLOWED someone who might destroy peace itself.


    What am I trying to explore is the “Why?” Why to go that far? In
    relation to Yuuki’s weakness to actually do anything, what is he trying
    to achieve?
    I have the same question. But again, conspicuous is not Hino's style in my opinion. Something that had already been massively predicted--Kaname will be killed by Yuki's hands-- may not happen. I dont think its that simple.


    For me the most obvious answer is because Kaname wants Yuuki to
    defend her path and her position and in that way, he can promote her
    further in the eyes of the vampire society. To earn recognition and
    respect, to detach herself from him and finally be able to walk on her
    path without ties, binds and restrictions. You said it yourself “Yuuki
    cannot support her ideals, she is far too weak”.
    Kaname's actions does not support Yuki's. It actually contradicts. At the start of the project the nobles were wary of giving her support because of Kaname, and even now her position runs a thin line between immature and average. How is she going to redeem herself?
    Think about it, if Kaname just does all this to piss her off so she would kill him in the end because she's the Good Girl and he's the Bad Guy---what about Kaname's Original plan?
    it seems to me the most obvious yet reasonable that he's doing this to cleanse the "bad roots" and let it be known to others he is doing so especially Yuki, she will kill him and then she'll be known as the hero who will lead everyone to the Repeat of the First Arc School and Prefect System.
    This is probably the most boring ending and repeat ever.


    Right now Yuuki is thinking going after him, but if she follows him
    at this dark path, she could highly risk her role and lose the faith and
    the trust of the vampires and the nobles.

    They hardly trusted her and to me it seems that right now her choice, her path is restricted.

    So
    for kaname wants to avoid that, he wants to prevent Yuuki from
    throwing that title and that crucial role away and right now to
    jeopardize to identified with a “killer” and a “bersek”.

    In
    combination to the above and the difficult dilemma that he is creating
    to her, it shows me that he has other plans for Yuuki, which are not
    limited solely at her protection, Yuuki’s destination seems greater than
    this and Kaname guards it.
    ...
    that's it? he's doing all that lying to keep her away? LOL. honey, its just too simple. which is why I agree with the bolded part. still lots to reveal. and we're not even at the ending yet.

    How do I know? If someone is putting Yuuki as a key, and is turning
    her little existence into a great one, that’s Kaname; when he decides to
    drive these actions, when he decides to reach the extremes in order to
    keep her safe, he is the one making her existence important. And that’s
    because he knows who she is.If it was all about a girl,any girl that he
    favored apparently he would not intend to sacrifice himself for her when
    she was human, neither make all these efforts for her.
    Exactly, he safeguards her for a more important role, or a reason. What that is, we'll find out...


    We already saw Kaname’s path in the past; it led to co-existence and
    peace and Yuuki’s path is not different. Weak or powerful; it makes no
    difference, it is the intentions that count and she is a Kuran after
    all, her legacy is undeniable, it has already been charged to her.
    Sooner or later she shall become what she is destined to be.
    how do you answer to Sara then? a bad pureblood managed to prove she got the upperhand to the Representative of Peace and Kaname's Substitute Yuki. That was no longer about being weak or powerful, it was a danger sign even, that Yuki can be tricked in the future, which is not good if all this advertises a Better Future.
    If Kaname is ensuring she will turn out to be a better substitute for him, shouldn't he have prepped her more?


    Actually my deepest fear is that Kaname will realize co-existence for
    her but totally “burn” himself in the process.
    which is why I said makes it a punishment ending. Yuki is forced to go on a path that Kaname decides for her, he places the burden of his supposed death onto her guilt, which drives her forward, relentlessly, to work on his goals---her goals too. In a Repeat of the First Arc.

    In addition, what he may try to achieve will be (according to my
    opinion) his own sacrifice in order to pass the ultimate power to Yuuki
    so she can finally be undoubtedly the pillar of the society in all
    means.
    and then what will Yuki do to the hunters who are threatening her life, stopping her from going after Kaname?
    I suppose when she got Kaname's powers she will take them off the picture too, lol, then this just trashes the whole idea of PC.
    another thing you're suggesting here is that Yuki becomes the only pureblood alive which creates problems for the hierarchy of vampires as already mentioned--unless she makes herself Queen Bee the "pillar of society", which contradicts what Kaname said about purebloods being revered.
    So she stays at the academy to create a Repeat of the prefect system, same thing. and then?
    do we start reading from chapter 1 again? LOL
    Whats happening right now is a REPEAT just Yuki swapped uniforms so she's wearing white now.
    in which case both the idea of Yuki being pureblood queen and Yuki being night dorm president is contradicting to several ideas presented currently.


    You have already heard Kaname, if it is to leave without Yuuki he prefers to be killed by her own hands.
    that was IF Yuki left him. It was KANAME who LEFT HER.
    and that was IF Yuki choose to leave him. she wants to go after him presently.


    I do not think that she will kill him on her own will, if she would
    kill him, it would be, because he would have wanted her to kill him and
    he would present it (I assume if that ever happened) as if she has no
    orher choice.
    so what are you saying, that he is going to force the decision to make her? affraid
    HE WILL FORCE HER TO KILL HIM?
    WHAT KIND OF ENDING IS THAT? Where's the love there?
    not only does this make it selfish and full of assumptions you have concluded, but it also sounds contrived now. affraid Yuki has to be forced upon a circumstance by which she must raise her artemis down and kill him---AGAIN AND AGAIN, THIS CONTRADICTS HER IDEA THAT SHE DOES NOT WANT ANYONE TO SUFFER. DEATH is still suffering.

    And all this because of what Kaname said, you've already reached a FINALE here as if you've been thinking and planning how it can happen all along, struggling to reach a possible conclusion where it ends in death. But how sure are you?

    Remember how you thought Kaien was being a bad father a chapter ago? and NOW, what is he now? Cool

    @ Yes I know, I ‘ ve written a story myself here (you know) that
    can not be avoided with me, but anyway, I am talking about Kaname’s
    plan, not the actual plot. Apparently many more things may come in the
    way and Yuuki will need to make a great twist. I agree its time to pay
    her dues and show that she can support what she initiated.

    Kaname drops an uncertain hint and you RUN with it to the finish line faster than anyone else as if someone's actually chasing...

    I hope there's actually a rope waiting there for you because I'm not betting on this "race" in the first place....
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    Re: Kaname's Kuran plan of action is heading where?

    Post by soulkeeper_pol on Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:11 pm

    *tiptoes around*

    I've read a lot of posts and its tearing my brain to pieces. Honestly I'm totally confused as to what Kaname's plan of action is. I'm about 98% convinced though that his goal has always been coexistence. His past shows that he has tried so hard to live among humans and he had planned to sacrifice himself for them. So humans will be able to protect themselves??? I guess Kaname's plans since the past has always involved war and killing. I mean why would Kaname's idea of coexistence be to give humans weapons to kill vampires? Probably so that vampires will be able to look at humans as equals if they had the ability to fight against them? Killing purebloods would make sense though because only purebloods can turn humans to vampires and create an army...

    But I think Kaname might be missing a big picture here because of his love for humans. Although I think at the moment its Hino-sama that's missing the big picture >.< The humans are EQUALLY AS GUILTY as the vampires. Their lack of acceptance and fear drives a wall to the reconciliation of the species. The hunters approval of Kaname's actions is proof of this. Most humans dont want to coexist with vampires. They want to eliminate them. And if purebloods are gone and vampires cannot propagate by other means except for childbirth, it will be a great chance for the hunters to strike at the vampires and eliminate them. So Kaname's plan has to be greater than what we have grasped so far. And for the life of me I cant think of anything to bring out this coexistence at all. Yuuki killing Kaname would just make the hunters happy before eliminating her themselves. It wont miraculously turn her into a hero.

    Kaien's plan might work, but it would probably take thousands of years before everyone would be able to accept it and by then Yuuki might already have been sacrificed. And I'm sure this is one of Kaname's fears.

    I only hope Hino-sama has a credible idea because she has totally confounded me. I'm really looking forward to see on how this will play out.
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    Re: Kaname's Kuran plan of action is heading where?

    Post by juliet on Tue Sep 27, 2011 9:30 pm

    @
    are you kidding me?? you just made a clear path FROM Kaname's plan indications that somehow ended in Kaname's death, and you're telling me you were just talking about Kaname's plan? lol if you're not predicting then did you just define what Kaname's plan is??? And are you SURE it will happen?

    m, yes but it was about Kaname's plan, so I am not kidding you at all as you saw. And it was more about his intention ( I mean in general) that characterizes him as a character to have that sacrifaction tendency.

    Sweet in overall I agree, there are so many points that we have not seen yet, and is quite early to judge, on the other hand I believe that perhaps Hino's intentions to show that Kaname is willing to sacrifice himself in overall (for the humans/or Yuuki) comes far too early, creating a dark mood and atmosphere (at least for the ones that care).

    So mainly its deceiving to expect that since that sacrifation mood is evident from now, Hino will finally apply it to resolve VK, as you said it is massively predicted. Yet, its good to see the reasons why this kind of end cannot apply, because until now we have not really gone into exploring the issue. And as you said its a massive prediction...

    is it still about Yuki or his O.P.? if its about Yuki, how?

    Kaname's plan...if Kaname does not intend to bring co-existence, then how would Aido-dono would support him, Ruka and Kaien? And if he does not do it about co-existence (and that was also a part of his original part), then how would he create a safe place for Yuuki as he had promised that he shall do?
    You can see how all clues pintpoint to co-existence/even if he faces a big threat> eventually I believe that his actions are following a good track that will aid society as with Rido/council case.

    Hino can not leave co-existence out of her script, that's the main theme of Vk..it would be like cancelling all the character's concerns and issues especially Yuuki's that has been a supporter of Kaien all along and also the role of the Kuran familly that supported co-existence and brought balance >

    (the moment that Kaname steps out the leadership, we have accidents at the town, Sara is building her army because the hunters neglected all clues showing extreme bias towards Kaname the moment they did not know what Sara's plan was about (all they were saying; is if Kaname will turn against them and if he co-operates with Sara, proving incapable to perfom the role they were created for and now they show indifference about purebloods). Total chaos.

    So I expect a resolve for that issue to come out as well* Kaname's plan can be multi-leved like in the first arc; a role for Zero, the termination of the council, his liberation from Rido, Yuuki's identity revealed. I do not expect it to be simplier but I think it should convey also that matter through its actions.


    As for the unfair part, Kaname deserves hapiness so if it is to sacrifice himself how is Hino going to present us a hero-victim/ whatever? and expect that to be also our reward for all the time that we read VK?

    There is this sacrifation mood that hangs there for chapters now (actually I had also opened a thread asking about it) and this is one of my worst fears as I am afraid that Hino may want to make it epic in terms of genre of tragedy.
    But then again how easily would she give out the meaning of all these?

    how do you answer to Sara then? a bad pureblood managed to prove she got the upperhand to the Representative of Peace and Kaname's Substitute Yuki. That was no longer about being weak or powerful, it was a danger sign even, that Yuki can be tricked in the future, which is not good if all this advertises a Better Future.

    About that aspect, that's a concern right now, because as we see Sara advances with her plans while Yuuki's ignorance does not help at all.
    Apparently for now she is going to need the help of others (and Aidou's finding with the tablets might proove to be helpful) but to answer your question, no Yuuki has not the means now to fight these conditions alone (is Zero going to be any help here or is Kaname going to exterminate Sara soon enough), yet if she does not meet bad and evil, if she does not fall into traps (no matter how disturbing this is) she is not going to improve at all.

    That's why I mentioned Kaname's role and interference in uplifting her for the time being at the eyes of the society so that she can at least hold the faith that they show her- her plan with the school right now seems to be threaten.
    I can not think of another way for Yuuki's character to be developped (actually I can but I will save it for later LOL), if she does not get help until the end. Or else how is going to make it?


    that was IF Yuki left him. It was KANAME who LEFT HER.
    and that was IF Yuki choose to leave him. she wants to go after him presently.


    No it said " If I am to let you go i'd rather kill you myself or have you kill me" official viz media translations, so its a different thing.
    The thing is Kaname's purpose, because if he wants to ensure Yuuki's and others safety, then he wont be doing such a thing (asking for her) until the end. And if he does ask it, it can be out of guilts and remorse (as Nina demonstrated) feeling that she would not accept him back after having so much blood at his hands. This does not mean that Yuuki shall accept such an end, she has already accepted a part of his sins, so despite his intention, she shall accept him.

    HE WILL FORCE HER TO KILL HIM?
    WHAT KIND OF ENDING IS THAT? Where's the love there?
    not only does this make it selfish and full of assumptions you have concluded, but it also sounds contrived now. Yuki has to be forced upon a circumstance by which she must raise her artemis down and kill him---AGAIN AND AGAIN, THIS CONTRADICTS HER IDEA THAT SHE DOES NOT WANT ANYONE TO SUFFER. DEATH is still suffering.


    I do not think that she will kill him on her own will,if she would
    kill him, it would be, because he would have wanted her to kill him and
    he would present it (I assume if that ever happened) as if she has no
    orher choice.

    No I described the conditions under which Yuuki could only kill Kaname, not that she or he will apply it, answering to your previous post. Apparently yes such an ending does not contain love. And it would be selfish from Kaname to ask Yuuki to do such a thing. But the term of sacrifice is actually broader, let's say as an example that he would exchange that with making all vampires human and ask from Yuuki to give him the final blow in case he was suffering.

    In that case would the center of the discussion still be Yuuki (actually I do not even care what will happen to Yuuki -if Kaname's dies) or Kaname's intention?

    So it does have to do a lot with how Hino would serve such an action...even though the use of the idea at an early stage comforts me. But its not impossible if Hino had such an intention to find methods of serving that just right in order to make Kaname's action under the general light, hard to deny, that this was the right way to go.

    Remember how you thought Kaien was being a bad father a chapter ago? and NOW, what is he now?

    About kaien we would not have all this mess if he had let Yuuki go, LOL, so no my perspective has not changed yet. He was too much into a hurry to say his lines "I will not return Yuuki to you" before seeing Kaname's intentions. So that's actually and a bit of presdiposition there. He is concerned yes, but still keeping her againts her wishes. And a part of the mess with Sara is his own doing, prevention nada.

    I hope there's actually a rope waiting there for you because I'm not betting on this "race" in the first place....

    It'a a possibilty that I would gladly do impossible! Still as you said Kaname's actions and intentions are unclear. I am still keeping my reservations on this topic on a small percentage because Hino can be full of surprises, but after discussing the issue, I also tend to think that Hino wants to scare us rather than inform us.
    So I will also place my bet elsewhere, do not worry LOL...











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    Re: Kaname's Kuran plan of action is heading where?

    Post by caela on Wed Sep 28, 2011 4:33 am

    I posted my predictions on Kaname's version of Endgame.

    Its page 2 on the thread.

    http://vampireknight.all-up.com/t886-how-do-you-think-vampire-knight-is-going-to-end



    Read at your own risk because I think I mostly figured out endgame. Not kidding
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    Re: Kaname's Kuran plan of action is heading where?

    Post by sweetsolace on Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:28 am


    m, yes but it was about Kaname's plan, so I am not kidding you at
    all as you saw. And it was more about his intention ( I mean in general)
    that characterizes him as a character to have that sacrifaction
    tendency.

    you just made a clear path FROM Kaname's plan indications that somehow
    ended in Kaname's death, and you're telling me you were just talking
    about Kaname's plan? lol if you're not predicting then did you just
    define what Kaname's plan is
    ??? And are you SURE it will happen?

    Sweet in overall I agree, there are so many points that we have not
    seen yet, and is quite early to judge, on the other hand I believe that
    perhaps Hino's intentions to show that Kaname is willing to sacrifice
    himself in overall (for the humans/or Yuuki) comes far too early,
    creating a dark mood and atmosphere (at least for the ones that care).
    Yet, its good to see the reasons why this kind of end cannot apply,
    because until now we have not really gone into exploring the issue. And
    as you said its a massive prediction...

    you said this before:
    If you have other versions of kaname's plans (less pessimistic, please do write it
    now I wrote another less pessimistic version, and you continue on your pessimistic version, you even defend it. I hope you're not fooling yourself, because its clear to me how you expect or even want an ending where Kaname sacrifices himself. "Tell it before it happens" plan. but you think its acceptable to kill Kaname off because of something you thought in the script "for a long time now" and you want to materialize your fear by making it real and more believable before it actually happens.

    the point I showed about Kaien was the fact most of us thought he was being a bad father to Yuki because of his words to Kaname about not giving back Yuki, and it turns out he was trying to defend peace in this chapter. The point is perspectives change a lot in vampire knight and what may appear strongly suggestive may just be a small part of something.

    Im not denying the possibility Kaname can die, but I don't like that possibility either nor do I find it reasonable which is the reason why I defend it rather than going along with it.


    Last edited by sweetsolace on Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:05 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : edit)
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    Re: Kaname's Kuran plan of action is heading where?

    Post by juliet on Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:13 am

    you just made a clear path FROM Kaname's plan indications that somehow
    ended in Kaname's death, and you're telling me you were just talking
    about Kaname's plan? lol if you're not predicting then did you just
    define what Kaname's plan is??? And are you SURE it will happen?

    Are you sure that is not going to happen? OF course I wrote it as Kaname's plans...if that results in the ending of the story, as an idea and as a theory what's the problem? the title of the thread?

    I hope you're not fooling yourself, because its clear to me how you expect or even want an ending where Kaname sacrifices himself. "Tell it before it happens" plan.but you think its acceptable to kill Kaname off because of something you thought in the script "for a long time now" and you want to materialize your fear by making it real and more believable before it actually happens.

    Yes and I see also that your own fear (for Kaname not to die), makes you rule out every other possibility.

    Right? right. We can not consider another perspective or try to explain how Kaname may be viewing things because? tell me the because? Hino has not told us the end, but then all theories should stop, not just this, ALL> apparently I am not going to support such a stand.

    Im not denying the possibility Kaname can die, but I don't like that possibility either nor do I find it reasonable which is the reason why I defend it rather than going along with it.

    Why do you find it unreasonable when Kaname has all these tendencies;

    1. First he wanted to sacrifice himself to save humans
    2. He wanted to sacrifice himselg to save Yuuki

    Now why is it impossible that he would not go and threw himself on a task where a sacrifice is demanded? (thus he does not want Yuuki involved?) But wasn't that the point that Yuukis should not sacrifice herself? Isn't that his fear? that her path may lead her to that?

    If he thinks that is possible for Yuuki why should I considerate that impossible for Kaname?

    And you think that I like that possibility because I discuss it or examine the issue? sorry I had no idea that expressing another point of view other shows likes and dislikes. Then apparently I can be accused of that and for many more since I like discussing and going through all options. But I will.







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    Re: Kaname's Kuran plan of action is heading where?

    Post by sweetsolace on Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:26 am

    juliet wrote:
    you just made a clear path FROM Kaname's plan indications that somehow
    ended in Kaname's death, and you're telling me you were just talking
    about Kaname's plan? lol if you're not predicting then did you just
    define what Kaname's plan is??? And are you SURE it will happen?

    Are you sure that is not going to happen? OF course I wrote it as Kaname's plans...if that results in the ending of the story, as an idea and as a theory what's the problem? the title of the thread?

    I hope you're not fooling yourself, because its clear to me how you expect or even want an ending where Kaname sacrifices himself. "Tell it before it happens" plan.but you think its acceptable to kill Kaname off because of something you thought in the script "for a long time now" and you want to materialize your fear by making it real and more believable before it actually happens.

    Yes and I see also that your own fear (for Kaname not to die), makes you rule out every other possibility.

    Right? right. We can not consider another perspective or try to explain how Kaname may be viewing things because? tell me the because? Hino has not told us the end, but then all theories should stop, not just this, ALL> apparently I am not going to support such a stand.

    Im not denying the possibility Kaname can die, but I don't like that possibility either nor do I find it reasonable which is the reason why I defend it rather than going along with it.

    Why do you find it unreasonable when Kaname has all these tendencies;

    1. First he wanted to sacrifice himself to save humans
    2. He wanted to sacrifice himselg to save Yuuki

    Now why is it impossible that he would not go and threw himself on a task where a sacrifice is demanded? (thus he does not want Yuuki involved?) But wasn't that the point that Yuukis should not sacrifice herself? Isn't that his fear? that her path may lead her to that?

    If he thinks that is possible for Yuuki why should I considerate that impossible for Kaname?

    And you think that I like that possibility because I discuss it or examine the issue? sorry I had no idea that expressing another point of view other shows likes and dislikes. Then apparently I can be accused of that and for many more since I like discussing and going through all options. But I will.


    Of course since Im YUME I try to think how Kaname's death cannot be possible eventhough its a possibility. I'm more than open to the suggestion but like I've said it doesn't make sense to me despite the narrowness of that path since previous chapters have convinced some of us, myself included, that indeed anything can change and anything can happen.

    but ok I did not word that right last post. Razz so apologies for the rudeness . Razz But I won't deny the idea that this stuff sounds a bit contrived for my taste.

    first of all, the components for Kaname to die by Yuki's hands:

    Yuki's path --it was not clearly stated, and whats not clearly stated can always change meaning. its how I said it in my previous post about Yuki's path--what is it because even Yuki herself is not doing productive in this path nor is Kaname's actions helping towards it so how does it convince that "Kaname decided Yuki's path will be to lead vampires in a Repeat of the First Arc" when he's the one shooting it down? You supplied to that saying you don't know how since Yuki looks and acts useless, then if this clue is to be part of the grand whole Death theory then its already uncertain there.

    Yuki's grimreaper service --she says its to kill purebloods who want to die. First of all, did Kaname ever said he wanted to die? Like I previously said, Kaname left Yuki forcibly, my idea of his words when he told her that was the leave was to be made voluntarily, not through force. So what does it mean when he's the one who forcibly leaves her? he brings that death upon himself by creating a condition for it which he will eventually act on, leaving Yuki no choice. does this sound contrived or what.

    Kaname is killing purebloods, but who's to say they are innocent, who will judge them? The hunters have even agreed to their deaths. The only one against him is Kaien and Yuki and even they have botched their own righteous principles by letting Sara run free among their kind to create the REAL trouble there.
    If so, I ask this question again that I've asked previously, what will Yuki be doing if she kills Kaname as judgment for killing innocents (following her belief of voluntary death) OR how will she give him redemption especially when he made no mention he wants to be freed from long life?
    So the idea of coexistence is actually BLURRED at this point and even RICKETY, because even the righteous ones Kaien and Yuki are seemingly unaware of the present trouble (Sara) polluting their CE idea. Its unstable. Now it seems reasonable we rely on Kaname to bring about coexistence, and thats what we should find out..

    Kaname "burning" himself in Yuki's eyes - not only Yuki. and not only Kaname is burning himself.
    we all know he wanted to have a bad image. It seemed he is doing everything he can to put a bad image upon himself, including letting Sara free and owing up to her crimes, but he especially gives extra attention to Aido, Yuki and Kaien.
    Aido saw his father killed before his eyes.
    Yuki saw that Kaname left her with an unfulfilled promise and a crime, a promise she had been longing to start.
    Kaien was wounded and killed Touma by his own hands, per Kaname's illusion. Furthermore telling him to tell Yuki another lie to boost his bad image in her.
    These three people were Kaname's most trusted people and also ones who trusted him most. There's a reason why he deliberate gives EXTRA damage to their trust in him, and I believe its the same reason why he chose to go out in the OPEN and in public to kill purebloods one by one when he can do it discreetly even.

    It's not only Kaname who's burning himself, he's with Ruka, Kain and Seiren who are with him doing his plans. In some way they're also burned along with him. Kaname is the type not to involve innocents with him, hence he has a way to redeem them, perhaps himself as well.

    We still don't know what the volcano will do or what will be its role. Sometime ago it had already flowed down its path which means it was timed to hit something. Kaname moving towards the town where the academy is while this happens perhaps not a coincidence but part of his plan.

    there are other plot materials left lying there... like Sara's tablets. The idea was developed to the point where it was already being distributed there, so what happens to it? Kaname said to Kaien to tell Yuki he will kill Sara next, but if he had already lied by killing Ouri was that also a lie, or a secret message for Yuki to tell he was coming to the academy next? Will Sara be killed or will Kaname let her last as she also helps boost his bad image? There are some things to be answered. Its a long way before Kaname's "sacrifice" and things may change.
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    Re: Kaname's Kuran plan of action is heading where?

    Post by nina on Sun Oct 09, 2011 11:06 pm

    First of all I’d like to thank Juliet for the loooong discussion we had and her huge contribution for the beneath post. ^^ sLo_BigBearHug

    Kaname’s motive and path/plan.
    Chapter 75
    Kaname (as a child): “When Yuuki grows up it is certain that she can’t keep her human status … When that time comes I think this time … this time, it will be my turn to change Yuuki back into a human.”
    http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/75/11
    Kaien (in the present): “The plans you made that time never happened … to tell you the truth I’m relieved …
    After changing the plan is this the path you choose?”
    http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/75/12

    Kaname (in the present): “It is only that my path changed but my motive has always been the same.
    http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/75/26

    His motive/purpose has always been the same only the path has changed.

    So … what possibly could be his motive/purpose when he was thinking as a child to turn Yuuki into human? What else rather than her safety, protection and happiness huh? And since this hasn’t changed means that also currently is fighting for the same >> i.e. his MOTIVE = Yuuki’s protection/happiness.

    However the path has changed. Which was the initial path? To sacrifice himself in order to make her human. So since now that path has changed means that he doesn’t plan to turn her into human, viz to sacrifice himself at least for that reason, right?
    I don’t know how clearer Hino should have had conveyed that! *sigh*

    Another conclusion that we can make out IMO of this significant portion is that since Kaname is walking on a different path now, probably means that his alternative (from the sacrifice) is the Original Plan which most likely aiming to turn the world around her in order the outcome (motive/purpose) to be the same >> Yuuki’s safety.

    Although his motive and the final goal is more clear still the way he’s planning to achieve that is a puzzle. *sigh*

    So I thought another approach … to try figure out what his opponents plan could be. What forces Kaname and the Kurans through millennia have fought constantly…


    1. Into his ancestral period the enemy was the PBs (not all of them) who wanted to turn the entire mankind into slaves viz level-e/d vampires. I guess their motive were the fresh human blood and the final dominance.

    2. Senate/Asato: It was Juuri’s father (the last king) who stepped down of his throne and established the senate as a different ruling system from the monarchy … so the nobles to have voice and maybe to “decrease” the influence of the PBs in vampire society (?). However this goal never achieved since the senate proved to be corrupted. On the surface they worshiped the PBs as sacred creatures but behind the scene they exchanged favors with some PBs in order to obtain their blood. Used their power to annihilate other PBs and in return was leaving them to turn humans into slaves. They also had cooperation with the former president of the hunters and maybe with some powerful humans.

    In regards of the above Juliet has dig up from the fanbook (thanks jul ^^) the beneath portion which describes vividly the situation of the VK world.
    Spoiler:
    There are two notions considering relationships with humans. One only sees humans as food, and the other wants coexistence with humans. Most vampires feel superior to humans because of their abilities but lots of young vampires support the previous head of the Kuran family, who was a pacifist and Kaname Kuran who is spending time with humans at the academy.
    The pro-Senate faction considers Kaname Kuran to be trouble because HE IS AT THE CORE OF THIS PACIFISM. The Kuran family name and their pureblood power are extremely important in controlling vampire society. This is why Asato Ichijo, the core member of the pro-Senate faction tried to take advantage of Rido Kuran, and Kaname Kuran. There are also humans who are trying to join forces with the Senate to take advantage of the powers of vampires.


    Kaname Kuran is trouble cuz he is the core of the pacifism i.e. co-existence. I think this passage is very enlightening!^^

    But what was Asato’s final goal? >>>



    http://www.mangareader.net/104-2177-7/vampire-knight/chapter-49.html

    Pretty interesting … he wanted ALL the PBs to cease to exist! And I bet he had a plan to achieve this … a plan that destroyed by Kaname …

    And what about the hunters? As we know the former president of the HA was Asato’s lackey. However before he turns into dust he gave a very interesting speech. >>> “I struggled to have them allow you to go on living …”




    http://www.mangareader.net/104-2171-25/vampire-knight/chapter-45.html

    So the senate and Asato had plans to get rid of the hunters as well. I guess their ultimate target then was the wide dominance … a world free of PBs, free of hunters >> free to treat humans as food due to their superior powers??? Most likely yes.

    3. Sara is at least the most obvious active villain currently. In fact Sara had a very close cooperation with Asato in the past and as she said she played the nice girl in order to stay close. I think (and I’ll try to prove it) that Sara now plays the role of the senate/Asato. Same goal and maybe she also using the same “weapons” to achieve her goal.
    Sara’s plan:

    - First of all seems like she is using the same tactic … she wants to turn her obstacles against each other >> “One piece takes the other and the last one wins”
    http://www.mangareader.net/104-57815-40/vampire-knight/chapter-65.html

    The same strategic was using Asato as well … and I believe in the end she also wants ALL the other PBs dead! << This is the only way to obtain the throne of the Queen forever.

    - Sara’s moves: (I’ll use a portion from another translation that I trust as accurate and I think reveals some very important points that aren’t visible in the available scanlation)

    * I think Sara was planning (before the re-opening of the NC) to insert into the all-girls Academy. I mean her visit there wasn’t only to collect some girls for her harem. Her intention was to entry in the academy herself >>>

    Sara: “Since eventually I will also be admitted to the academy I must hear their request” (chapter 65) << this wording is included in this page >>



    http://www.mangareader.net/104-57815-3/vampire-knight/chapter-65.html

    And the question is why Sara wanted to go into this academy. My feeling is that she wanted to use the all-girl academy a) for a shelter b) to use the humans as her shield, c) and maybe later for hostages/targets. Perhaps her intention was to lure Yuuki to defend these girls due to her tendency to protect humans? Idk exactly how she thought that she could use the school but I think Yuuki is one of her main pawns (>> hint the pic of the anime where Yuuki with her butterfly wings is trapped in a spider’s web)

    Either way her plans slightly changed when Yuuki re-opened the NC … a move that came quite in handy for Sara cuz Cross academy gathers all Sara’s pawns together >> Yuuki, Zero (a hunter’s hand) and the DC which can serve the same purpose as the all-girls academy.

    - Tablets:

    * When she visited the president of the pharmaceutical company with Takuma:

    Takuma to the president: “Today A PERSON WHO HAD TALKED WITH YOU BEFORE likes to come here to greet you as the president one more time again. THE AGENDA of our talk IS ABOUT YOUR REQUEST TO SUPPLY BLOOD to develop the blood tablet, new medicine etc.”
    So a) Sara had met the president in the past and b) the president wanted blood supplies for his research about the blood tablets … i.e. the president had already made a research. The question is from when? I think this project it might goes back when Asato was still alive. The indication of this is that Asato was the one who revived this company.
    Another clue which supports the above assumption is revealed in the convo between Takuma and the president at Sara’s dungeon >>>

    President: “For the research I INTENDED to understand the DANGER CONCERNING WITH PBed VAMPIRES …
    She is planning to use the ACCUMULATED research of our company for terrible things sooner or later …”

    Here the president says clearly that a) he had done already a research (accumulated) which Sara now obtains and b) the core of his research was the venturousness of the PBs … I suppose that means he was studying the powers of the PBs through their blood!
    And that leads me to think that the president started this research for Asato who as he said his final goal was to annihilate ALL the PBs. Also Sara knew that the president wanted blood supplies … so how impossible is that Sara had imprisoned humans for that purpose? That’s why I had the idea/theory that Sara it might have made a batch of tampered tablets before we actually see the current ones with the oval shape << she had the knowledge (accumulated research), the means (prisoners as blood supplies) and ofc the time till she enters into Cross academy.
    Anyway the point is that after she captured the president her next move is to steal Hanadagi’s heart which we didn’t see to eat! Why? One of the reasons I think is possible to be that she wanted to use this heart for the president’s research (concerning PBs) or even for her tablets.

    However I believe she didn’t pick Hanadagi randomly only for the above reasons but also to enforce Kaname to step in. Which leads me to >>>

    - She is targeting Yuuki and ultimately Kaname i.e. the core of the pacifism as every villain who respects itself and aiming on dominance … The proof of that is her early movement to capture Takuma as the closest person to Kaname in order to obtain some info from him about Kaname’s intentions. And the information that seems to lead her to Hanadagi it might be that Kaname is an ancestor.
    Also there is a hint from Hino that connects Hanadagi (his castle specifically) with Kaname’s grief over the shattered mirror >>
    http://www.mangareader.net/104-19604-23/vampire-knight/chapter-52.html

    Additionally Kaname was monitoring Hanadagi’s castle very early >> before Sara makes any further move BUT AFTER she had capture Takuma.

    To sum up what I’m trying to say here about Sara’s plan:
    a) Sara needed a heart from a PB (tablets)

    b) She picked Hana for his heart not randomly but because she knew the connection between Hana and Kaname’s tragedy … i.e. awaking Hana she was awakening an old and maybe deadly threat for him. (I suspect that Hanadagi was involved with Kaname’s wife’s death in the past but I’ll leave it for now lol)

    c) In this way she THOUGHT that “forced” Kaname to wipe off Hanadagi into his castle which equals to a declaration of war. A war which might lead to what Asato wanted >> devour one another so Sara be the only PB = Queen and master of the entire world. For the upcoming war she’s preparing an army ready to be sacrificed for her limb by limb >> through the tampered tablets she’s creating submissive puppets like Takuma.

    For the above reasons I believe that Sara is following Asato’s initial plan which will lead to the annihilation of ALL the PBs. If so then she must have plans for the hunters as well.

    So in what they (Asato, senate, Sara etc) have changed from Kaname’s opponents in ancestral times? I think nothing really has changed … except from the fact that the old wars were open wide and the fronts were more obvious. Now the battles are storming underground and the fronts are blurred … the corruption has penetrated every race horizontal … PBs, lower level vampires, hunters and humans!

    Therefore IMO the fronts will be divided between the good and the evil … the right and the wrong >>> between the ones who will fight for the co-existence and the ones who will fight against.
    And my opinion is that this is Kaname’s ultimate scope >> to create the conditions so every party in this battle to take its place … no one is “a priori” innocent or rightful or guilty. Every one will have to make the final decision which will lead to the next day …
    Now having the above rationale I’m coming to Kaname. Is he aiming to annihilate ALL the PBs? I think no but I would be more certain if we knew IF there have left in the world PBs who like the idea of co-existence like the ones who stood on Kaname’s side in ancestral times … are there any left? IMO it should have … My belief is that it would be wrong from the author to convey such message … that in a better world the PBs have no place. In my mind the meaning of a successful co-existence is all the species to be present … the idea of pacifism cannot identify with the erasure of a whole race. Thus far is it true that we have seen mostly evil PBs but I hope that there exist some good ones who due to the constant fights for more power and dominance choose to stay quiet in the shadow like Isaya. If that will come true then I’m sure that Kaname isn’t aiming to wipe off his race.

    Indications:

    1. His line >> “A system that can no longer tell good from evil … is a system that can no longer be used”
    http://www.mangareader.net/104-2169-7/vampire-knight/chapter-43.html

    So how possible is it that his OP cannot distinguish good from evil? Moreover since his opponents were and probably still are aiming to exterminate ALL the PBs!? Can he have the same intention? And if so then who can reverse this path; only Yuuki and Kaien? Seems really utopian …
    2. Thus far he wants to make everybody believe that he indeed annihilates all the PBs but there are signs that tell otherwise >>

    * He killed Hanadagi but not his family who was in slumber as well.

    Hanadagi’s servant: “then please tell him, that the Hanadagi clan, who pride their pureblood lineage, wants nothing to do with outside power struggles. This is where my master and family decided to rest five hundred years ago...” (chapter 52)
    So why he didn’t exterminate Hanadagi’s family?

    * Hio: Next to him there was a female figure who resembles Hio (same colors, same traditional clothes (yukata) like Sizuka).
    http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/71/21
    Based on that I assume that she was a member of the Hio’s clan.

    Now according to Kaien >> “The mausoleum where the family head before the last generation of the PB Hio family had slept was destroyed … When the subordinate noble vampires hurried there the MAUSOLEUM had become a glittering dust.”

    Therefore we can assume that he killed only the HEAD of Hio’s family.

    *Touma: Again when Kaname punished Touma beside him was standing a girl. Her girly appearance indicates that perhaps she is also Touma’s sibling but Kaname didn’t harm her.
    http://www.mangareader.net/104-49597-22/vampire-knight/chapter-59.html http://www.mangareader.net/104-52342-2/vampire-knight/chapter-61.html http://www.mangareader.net/104-52342-3/vampire-knight/chapter-61.html

    * Shirabuki: Sara it mustn’t be the head of her family … at least we haven’t such info, ergo maybe the Shirabuki clan has more members except Sara.

    In short … from what we have seen thus far Kaname is killing ONLY the HEADS leaving untouched the rest of their families. And the reasonable question is why; IF his plan is to annihilate the whole PB’s race?
    Furthermore there must still existing around 26 PBs? >>
    http://www.mangareader.net/104-40425-28/vampire-knight/chapter-56.html
    http://www.mangareader.net/104-40425-29/vampire-knight/chapter-56.html

    The senate had under control 19 PBs and in total were 33 PBs before Yuuki’s birth. So 14 PBs had been away … maybe they choose to stay away because they were against the senate? I think is possible some of these PBs to have been Kuran’s allies thus after the senate took control they withdrew in order to protect their families. Isaya’s case could be an indication of that … he was pro-Kuran, his wife sacrificed and turned their child into human (for its protection most likely) and he became a mere spectator. Therefore it might still existing PBs who aren’t against co-existence and have a place in a brighter future.

    Ergo I think that Kaname a) has specific reasons for killing Hana, Hio and Touma, (that I’m not gonna analyze in this post) b) he wants everybody to believe that his OP is to kill ALL the PBs, c) he is attacking at their castles on purpose >> declaration of war.
    In this way the hunters have already shown their true colours and Sara thinks that everything is going according to her plan. The only factors that haven’t involved openly/revealed yet are the humans who know the existence of vampires/PBs and aiming to exploit/take advantage of their blood and maybe some PBs who are pro coexistence.

    PS. Thank you for your patience. almost..





    "... I want to fall down with you to the very farthest depths ... taint me too Kaname"



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    *wants to sneak under these bed sheets*
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    sweetsolace
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    Re: Kaname's Kuran plan of action is heading where?

    Post by sweetsolace on Mon Oct 10, 2011 1:42 am

    wow Nina and Juliet good job with the analysis!! cheers cheers cheers looks like someone's thinking positively now.
    you won't mind if I use this as reference in the future? . Razz Razz Now we are sure that Kaname is not planning to kill himself to turn Yuki to human, and that he still intends to protect her. LOL Now let's see about that "Kaname's sacrifice" thread.. LOL Razz I can see why this bait is very appetizing for the other fandom though. Razz


    And that leads me to think that the president started this research for Asato who as he said his final goal was to annihilate ALL the PBs.
    Also Sara knew that the president wanted blood supplies … so how impossible is that Sara had imprisoned humans for that purpose? That’s why I had the idea/theory that Sara it might have made a batch of tampered tablets before we actually see the current ones with the oval shape << she had the knowledge (accumulated research), the means (prisoners as blood supplies) and ofc the time till she enters into Cross academy.
    the president revealed in that same chapter 65 while he was locked in prison:
    Shortly I will also become a vampire just like the rest of the people here... the puppets without hope.
    The other people in the prison, who had similar reasons, were also forcibly made to become obedient vampires, only for her.

    So the human prisoners role was multi purpose, not just to supply the blood for the blood tablets (perhaps) but also to be puppets for her like the pres. I also think she could have tested the tablets for her plan initially by tampering it--she can do it and I don't see why she would miss the opportunity.


    Anyway the point is that after she captured the president her next move is to steal Hanadagi’s heart which we didn’t see to eat! Why? One of the reasons I think is possible to be that she wanted to use this heart for the president’s research (concerning PBs) or even for her tablets.
    not to mention, for all the purebloods we've seen after they've eaten a heart (Kaname, Sara etc) they often show off a new power shortly after they eat it. You make a nice point there, we didn't see Sara eat the heart nor show a new power, so its a possibility she saved it.


    b) She picked Hana for his heart not randomly but because she knew the connection between Hana and Kaname’s tragedy … i.e. awaking Hana she was awakening an old and maybe deadly threat for him. (I suspect that Hanadagi was involved with Kaname’s wife’s death in the past but I’ll leave it for now lol)
    I'm also leaning towards that suspicion but in another way, Hanadagi is an important pureblood who has to have special defenses around him, perhaps he protects something, something that he possesses? Somehow I'm not sure if he's a good or bad pureblood but he seems ancient, knowledgeable and superior pureblood from his actions


    c) In this way she THOUGHT that “forced” Kaname to wipe off Hanadagi into his castle which equals to a declaration of war. A war which might lead to what Asato wanted >> devour one another so Sara be the only PB = Queen and master of the entire world. For the upcoming war she’s preparing an army ready to be sacrificed for her limb by limb >> through the tampered tablets she’s creating submissive puppets like Takuma.
    Sara and Kaname seems to be both well aware what happens when Hanadagi's castle is invaded, but I think what makes hanadagi's special was because his castle has a seal and he seems well protected. In chapter 61 Kaname also invaded someones castle--Touma's--and from what I see it didn't look like the breach in standards or violations were severe, not like his prompt and urgent choice of actions in Hanadagi's, so I don't think it has to do with invading a castle. It looked like he used Sara attacking Hanadagi as the trigger for him to start creating chaos too.
    Sara worded out what she had done as something like a war, which Aido-dono also recognized with fear.
    She had done something that should be feared and would create conflict. Kaname seems to shield her from suspicion by owing up to her crimes while she stirs this conflict more in her own soup of chaos. The question is how long will he allow her, does she know she is shielded and is taking advantage of this as well, or doesnt she?


    I think that the idea of creating puppets and armies would be the effects of the tablets and the human prisoners as well as her harem. Though in my opinion all three used for one purpose seems too many, I think only one is intended and the rest we don't know. As you have revealed Sara's plan may also work the same with Asato's plan--to exterminate pbs--but she also wants to be queen.
    Are their plans really similar?
    Sara says something that might be enlightening:
    The cooperation from the compromised agreement as well as the promise are unreliable things, that they will be broken down someday.
    I will put on my fangs to break the agreement without consent.


    What's the agreement? IF this agreement is connected with what she discussed with the president, then she is breaking down their connections... As you have revealed nicely there Sara had visited the president before (perhaps that time the agreement was made, whatever it is), the pharmacy was supported by the Ichijous and Sara was a good girl to the senate which indicated their connections == in short, Sara and the pharmacy president are supposed to be in good terms until that moment. Hence she said, The cooperation from the compromised agreement as well as the promise are unreliable things, that they will be broken down someday.
    I will put on my fangs to break the agreement without consent.

    From my understanding here in relation to the above, Sara made an agreement and a promise with the pharmacy company owned by Ichijou during her last visit to him stating that she will cooperate in supplying them blood for the research. However it was "compromised", perhaps because the president, as he said, now decided to use the research to understand the danger of the purebloods---the statement itself seems to be anti pureblood and pro peace, so it goes against Asato and Sara's ideas in some way. Maybe Sara found out about this when she visited the president (chapter 65), and realized their agreement/promise became "unreliable" because it was already "compromised", hence she decided to "take into her fangs" to cut down their connections forcibly and literally by turning the president into her puppet-- thereby forcing him to agree on his terms "without consent".

    So she "used" the president's research (which was also cofounded by Asato) for her own goal to "create terrible things sooner or later", so the question is what is it? It has something to do with "understanding dangers of the purebloods" I think like you said that pureblood blood was used in this research that might contain information to their capabilities, strengths, weaknesses, etc. If Sara is going to use this kind of info, how? She can use the tablets as her medium when she finds out how to exploit this, so far thats the only thing we see she's doing that's affecting the masses.
    But somehow it doesnt match
    tablets = puppets and armies OR
    tablets = bring down purebloods?

    hmmm...

    I think it is both.. Like you said nina, its quite possible that Sara already made a first batch of tablets before the oval shaped ones were manufactured and distributed. She captured the president at chapter 65. In chapter 66 Kaname was taking a glass filled with what looked like diluted blood tablets, its a possibility (but not too convincing) that he had taken Sara's tablets there IF she had used the pres' research on purebloods.
    Also Yuki could possibly have taken the tampered ones too because Sara has in her hands knowledge about purebloods and she would probably use that to help her become queen by targetting the Kurans. The mangaka had magnified both panels of Kaname taking the diluted tablets AND with Yuki's tablets (they were shown to be round), they were BOTH shown to be thirsty prior to taking it as shown when they caress their throat. Somehow the mirror images and emphasis seems too coincidental..


    And my opinion is that this is Kaname’s ultimate scope >> to create the conditions so every party in this battle to take its place … no one is “a priori” innocent or rightful or guilty. Every one will have to make the final decision which will lead to the next day …
    I agree it seems to be that way, I think it is just one of the many reasons though. Kaname's actions also seem to be more like a major scandal in vampire society: vampire leader who pledged peace and had history of being a pacifist suddenly goes around killing "all" and causing chaos... it is bound to upset the loyal followers of "fear-and-respect-the-pureblood"
    This undoubtedly opened a huge spotlight rotating around him as the centerpiece, so yes he wants to be noticed and serve as a message for everyone.. though right now no one's actually moving to do something lol, on the contrary they cower more and feel more oppressed (*points at the pureblood who thinks being killed by hunters is OK*) Rima and Yuki showed they're not that empowered by Kaname's actions, LOL.

    My belief is that it would be wrong from the author to convey such message … that in a better world the PBs have no place. In my mind the meaning of a successful co-existence is all the species to be present … the idea of pacifism cannot identify with the erasure of a whole race.
    yes I agree with you, we've seen purebloods have as much right to live as others, but purebloods existence also creates trouble when they make Level Es so I wonder how they will be allowed to live in the end without causing further conflicts for race.

    * He killed Hanadagi but not his family who was in slumber as well.

    Hanadagi’s servant: “then please tell him, that the Hanadagi clan, who pride their pureblood lineage, wants nothing to do with outside power struggles. This is where my master and family decided to rest five hundred years ago...” (chapter 52)
    So why he didn’t exterminate Hanadagi’s family?
    in another translation it says, the Hanadagi only consisted of one member, that is the head who was killed, though I'm not sure if thats how it was meant.. If there are indeed more of them makes sense that Kaname is not killing all.

    Ergo I think that Kaname a) has specific reasons for killing Hana, Hio
    and Touma, (that I’m not gonna analyze in this post) b) he wants
    everybody to believe that his OP is to kill ALL the PBs, c) he is
    attacking at their castles on purpose >> declaration of war.
    it seems so we still don't know if he's going after other purebloods since he's not finished yet. He probably have a target selection like "only the heads of the families" and so far the streak hasn't been broken..
    and exactly who is spreading the news that he's killing ALL? Kaname or someone else?? we have at least three evidences where he only targets the heads... and somehow the news that reaches the vampires ears is "he's wiping out the families". o.o
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    Re: Kaname's Kuran plan of action is heading where?

    Post by juliet on Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:55 pm

    @ Nina you are welcome, it's my joy you know that...

    @Sweet the script expands i believe if we just see that the current action is not CURRENT at all, it's actually a continuation, because the war never ended...and that's a crucial point to see in VK and in Kaname's plan in overall...

    Let me state in the manga's words...

    “It engulfs everything….so violently..so when ‘it” first begin?”

    Another question has the war ever ended?

    Now if we just go back in volume 1 and let’s remember the introduction to the series (from the volumes);

    " Since ancient times hidden from history a war has waged between humans and vampires..."

    Cross: I want to put an end at the war between humans and vampires, a war that has been continueying in the darkness of history since ancient times! I want the young vampires with their intelligence, unfettered hearts to become a bridge between the two species.

    With the above line, I think that we can be certain that the war between humans and vampires has not ended because the existence of the vampires is a secret and the human government refuses to recognize their existence. This forces all parts that are involved to move behind the curtains; so threats are not exactly visible.

    Conflicts that concern the humans;


    Cross, “The existence of vampires has not been approved by the government, so Yuuki you must keep it as a secret”

    This leads me into thinking;
    After the first wars with humans and the establishment of the Kuran monarchy many millennia passed and the existence of vampires was forgotten from the general public (humans) that were not interfering with the vampire society.
    But we now see that vampires are actually singers, actors, politicians and are blending more and more in the human society but no human government accepts their existence.
    Perhaps this also allows humans to freely feel that they can exploit the human blood –especially pureblood due to their powers; (apparently killing a vampire is no crime since vampires do not exist)
    From the fanbook:
    There are also humans who are trying to join forces with the Senate to take advantage of the powers of vampires.
    From the official volumes;

    Yagari to Cross (vol.11)
    The directors strongly influence world politics and the financial markets. They may not know exact the identities of the students but prestigious families are more than enough to interest them. And few who know about vampires can not wait to use the abilities and technologies of the vampires to their advantage. They have hopes of getting hopes of getting “vampires life spans” to work with humans…They are no different from the last president…and that vampire who tried to get a your adopted daughter..”

    Yuuri to Kaien (vol.10) : or perhaps you planned to capture me and sell me to someone who desires vampire blood as a miracle cure?

    Kaien to the ex-president of HA: “A purebloods blood can be poisonous or give energy…the vampire who gave you blood was very assertive…you thought you took on its own powers, but it devoured you instead. HOW MUCH DID YOU CONCEDE TO THE SENATE…IN EXCHANGE FOR THAT BLOOD…


    So yes, there are certain humans that can try and take advantage of the fact that vampires have no real name and identity in the real world.

    Apparently this point also calls for a change; humans should acknowledge vampires not only because that’s reality but also for the vampire’s protection/humans protection.

    But can vampires under the certain conditions be acknowledged? No, because their instincts would eventually make all the co-existence plan to collapse. So there is a need that the vampire society resolves her issues first, before reaching the point where she can initiate a civilized bargain with humans' government.

    Right now in vampire society there is a struggle for power and domination for the human kind, apparently that's a drop back, coexistence can not achieve under this circumstances;

    Issues that concern vampires;

    Under this aspect Vampires that share Asato’s perceptions are dooming all vampires in the darkness. Let’s see vampire society main issue here which is the struggle over power;

    Asato to Takuma: The power of that blood that can control us all at will, purebloods are the natural enemies…

    Haruka to Kaname; "I know you are hiding Yuki's existence from the other vampires...
    Haruka: Nowadays the senate is trying to control our existence as long as the power of our blood...


    A question here how is the Senate trying to gain control over the existence of the purebloods>and eventually and her supporters from the human world? Doesn’t it sound a bit of paradoxical since the purebloods are able to control everyone around them? and here is the necessary division of the two…

    -Purebloods that support pacifism like the Kurans and in order to avoid a war do not act against the senate in their effort to maintain the balance but they pay it with their own life (and Isaya can be another case here as he fits the description –Kuran alliance)
    -Purebloods that are collaborating with the senate because they wish to exterminate the Kurans, that are the main barrier between them and humanity, and later gain the control over the senate> like Sara, Rido.

    Here there is also a case scenario that involves Hio with as much as the clues that are revealed in the manga (unfortunately not many)...

    according to the fanbook…

    “was locked in confinement right after she was born and given humans as food.”


    Now who reasonable father or mother would give his own daughter to the senate – from birth? >striking difference from the Kurans that kept Yuuki’s identity a secret.
    Apparently Hio had no good intentions or never supported pacifism> Kurans> because their wants were the same with the Senate and expressed through Asato> take notice of “she was given humans as food” because here all the peace idea collapses within a few words, and Hio family was behind the act through their silent collaboration> they are purebloods and can not be forced into giving their daughter. So what was the excuse of delivering a pureblood in a cage since birth to the Senate’s intentions?

    Also take in mind Kaname’s words to the Senate that the CONDITION of vampires has NOT changed ever since he entered slumber. So regardless of Shizuka’s age, the Senate had been the same after a point of time and so their final intentions.

    There are many questions considering Shizuka but let’s keep in mind that ever since she was locked in a cage that meant that the Senate could have been using her blood to make experiments and also to develop a new weapon that could come handy in the near future.

    Let's see Asato's words from the official volume;

    Asato reveals his plan to Takuma;
    When I was young, from the very first day i saw their awesome powers...one idea gradually grew in my mind..to manipulate purebloods into devouring one another to their ultimate destruction, the being Rido-same awakened is no exception. The power of that blood, which can control us all at will purebloods are the natural enemies of the vampire society...


    IMO what mostly interest Asato here is the controlling powers, because they are the key so that he can take overall control of the vampire society if his plan with Rido is fruitful and the Kurans who are the last barrier of pacifism fall, Asato can gain the game by then controlling the rest of the vampires in a mass rate while he relaxes and enjoys the game as the purebloods (alliances or not) will initiate a war to claim the throne.

    If we know take into account the ex-president's words;
    “I struggled to have them allow you to go on living …” so apparently the hunter one way or another were are to be exterminated.
    _


    Here I will say that we see now that it’s impossible that Kaname wants to kill all purebloods, if he had wanted that then apparently a collaboration with Asato (replacing Rido) and his position in the vampire society, while he could also have secured Yuuki far more than now, would allow him to become the ultimate master and even hiding behind the Senate’s order (if he really wanted).

    Kaname crushes Asato and the Senate as they can no longer differentiate the right from wrong, the bad from the good as he says to the Senate and when he is asked from Yagari to justify his acts he says:

    “I did it to protect the precious future as they were devouring everything on their way”…

    Meaning as a future Yuuki and also I believe with her and all the nightclass and his young supporters who are different from the elders>

    from the fanbook….

    “Most vampires feel superior to humans because of their abilities but lots of young vampires support the previous head of the Kuran family, who was a pacifist and Kaname Kuran who is spending time with humans at the academy. “


    I think that Asato's plans unrolls a bit anyone can see that this is also Sara's game because it merely follows the same strategy and NOT Kaname's game.

    Asato knew Sara and it seems that she wisely collaborated with him until the point that his plan fitted her own plans; Also if Asato as Nina mentioned in her previous post had the idea to exploit the tablets to his benefit, therefore he was conducting a research on how to manipulate the pureblood powers to achieve ultimate control, in reality Sara has all the weapons that she needs.

    Intriguing question about the tablets with all reservation; who developed them and had the idea?

    In volume 1 the professor says to the NC;
    the effectiveness of the blood tablets developed by our night class has been verified all over the world> and here we can see their popularity, you students are the pride of our school and of the night clan.”

    However…
    Spoiler:

    So who was the developer and the initial mastermind behind the tablets?
    The NC improved them; but why would Asato promote them or even allow their distribution since the tablets if they became popular and effective (as they did) could stop vampires from thinking to satisfy their instincts in a natural way? They could be tasteless but promising.

    Asato seems to know well the Shirabuki family

    Sara intended to ask from Ichiou to give her Takuma aka they collaborate;
    ‘From the official volume 11;

    “if I hadn’t stepped in you’d have lost your life as well…I am glad. I was going to ask Ichio to give you to me, I can now use you to see how Kaname will make his move….I am so glad that I have a good little soldier in my hands.”

    (with the above lines its also implied that it was Sara that killed Asato or Takuma would have been killed).

    Notice also in the above lines…
    “How Kaname will make his move…”

    1. She had intended to tell to Ichiou to hand her Takuma eventually that means that her plan would be in accordance with Ichiou’s plan…as Ichiou would not hand Takuma unless the benefits were mutual
    2. What move is she expecting Kaname to make? So the game still continues and it is also confirmed by Kaname's words to the senate: "You will be the first ones..."
    3. Sara knows that Kaname has a plan but she needs to know more about the enemy from Takuma in order to see how to adjust better her game.

    And here falls to her hands the vital information that Kaname is the Kuran's progenitor. How is this information going to help her?

    It can help her because (IMO) she knows the threats that she needs to summon in order to provoke him into action and create conflict among the purebloods...even Aido-dono knows about it...
    Spoiler:
    ...and also knows his weakness (Yuuki).


    Back to the ball Kaname says to Kain that he wants to make obvious who he cares to protect most. (paraphrasing his intention). So in other words...Kaname has uncovered publicly the one person that he cares about the most to all...

    apparently whoever gets that message does not seem to care enough for that"protection" but wants to use that spot in order to stir up things...

    and on the first day that Yuuki steps out of the house Touma initializes an attack...

    Notice that Touma so ironically uses Kaname's age as being too young in relation to him. Totally ironic and naive for Touma to say that and actually to provoke with a double hit the new vampire leader.

    I think that perhaps Touma's last words.."I have been used" may indicate a different meaning that the one that we are assuming> he could have collaborated with Sara in order to create more conflict with a certain exchange but Sara could have passed him the wrong notes (Lol)> if this is the case then Sara had no doubts who would get the other one out of the game.

    in another translation it says, the Hanadagi only consisted of one member, that is the head who was killed, though I'm not sure if thats how it was meant.. If there are indeed more of them makes sense that Kaname is not killing all.

    @Sweet according to the translation that I have from the official volumes the guardian says; "this is where my master and family decided to rest five hundred years ago...please tell him to use his authority as the former ruling family of the vampire world to keep any lawless people away from this place for at least four hundred years more...we all need a long rest every now and then to continue the never-ending journey, if we get to spend...everything will start to wear out..."

    and the manga continues with Kaname's despair one panel below "everything will wear out and fall out of my hands.."

    which is also an indication for a long path for both Hanadagi and Kaname if you combine it.

    And if you combine the words that Kaname says to Yuuki relating to purebloods that lose their meaning in life and gradually and the desire to have kids that applies to Ouri's case as Sara also describes it.

    Isaya says that he is 2000 years old.

    I know that I do not go so much into Kaname's plan but I am describing the others and the conditions feeling that its good to refresh our memory and perhaps see things as they started...apparently a long, long time ago than expected. Therefore Kaname's plan still applies today since obviously now more than ever there are people to protect through his plan and a new generation -the younger ones can - after the safety he applies- become the bridge.

    Perhaps Kaname leaves the space for all the "armies" to take place while he eliminates his own devils - that leads to the wrong assumption that he KILLS all purebloods..but where? and how? Hanadagi's family is alive, Touma's sister is alive and also Hio's.









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    Re: Kaname's Kuran plan of action is heading where?

    Post by nina on Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:02 am

    Thanks sweet! *hugs back* sLo_BigBearHug

    sweetsolace wrote: I'm also leaning towards that suspicion but in another way, Hanadagi is an important pureblood who has to have special defenses around him, perhaps he protects something, something that he possesses? Somehow I'm not sure if he's a good or bad pureblood but he seems ancient, knowledgeable and superior pureblood from his actions

    I also believe that Hanadagi was a special case due to his high protection. It’s very possible also to be an ancestor himself. When Kaname went to kill Asato he revealed a) that Kaname is an ancestor which means he knew about Kaname’s past and b) that are existing other ancestors as well >>

    Asato: “It’s an honor that ONE of OUR reawakened ANCESTORS would do such a thing for me…”
    http://www.mangareader.net/104-2169-43/vampire-knight/chapter-43.html

    Hanadagi has the profile to be an ancestor and his move to hypnotize Aido-dono for devouring him reinforces the possibility to be an evil PB.
    The idea that Hana somehow was involved with Kaname’s wife death is based on two hints:
    1. Why; Yuuki’s question to Kaname >>
    Yuuki: “My strong and beautiful Kaname. Why would you want me?
    Kaname: "Why"...you ask.” (this portion if from the official volume)

    >> “Why me?” has as an answer this tragic memory where is depicted Hanadagi’s castle???>>
    http://www.mangareader.net/104-19604-23/vampire-knight/chapter-52.html

    2. Why Kaname was monitoring Hana’s castle prior Sara kills Ouri who was the “key” for destroying Hana’s shield. There must be an additional reason except Hana’s powers … a reason more personal for Kaname which would “force” him to step in immediately. That reason could be Kaname’s tragedy.
    This also could be an answer to the question you pointed out >>
    Sara worded out what she had done as something like a war, which Aido-dono also recognized with fear.
    She had done something that should be feared and would create conflict. Kaname seems to shield her from suspicion by owing up to her crimes while she stirs this conflict more in her own soup of chaos. The question is how long will he allow her, does she know she is shielded and is taking advantage of this as well, or doesnt she?

    Right! Was she looked feared at all? I think she was very calm and confident that her move to awake Hana and steal his heart wouldn’t have consequences for her at that moment. If she knew that by awakening Hana was also awakening a personal threat/enemy for Kaname then this could be her shield from Hana >>
    Kaname would be bound to finish him off for her. And how she knew that Kaname would step in the right moment? >>Sara knew pretty well that Kaname figured out that she killed Ouri >> Ouri’s death was the key to reach Hana i.e. Kaname would be stupid not to keep an eye on her and Sara knows that he isn’t lol.

    Now, the two theories that Hana was special and that he might be connected with Kaname’s tragedy can combine beautifully … aren’t controversial but interrelated. ^^
    so I don't think it has to do with invading a castle. It looked like he used Sara attacking Hanadagi as the trigger for him to start creating chaos too.
    I totally agree! Cuz … could Kaname stop Sara from invading Hana’s castle? Yes … I think he could. But this move from Sara served his Original Plan.

    My opinion is that Kaname’s plan is multilevel. He has specific reasons for killing off these PBs’ heads … reasons that have to do with their acts in the past and in the present, but he doesn’t reveal these reasons. By doing that is forming the idea that his intention is indeed to kill ALL the PBs indiscriminately. I mean if his killings haven’t an obvious specific reason behind them, then everybody will lead to think that his killings are “unjustified” and generalized >> exactly what Kaname is trying to reinforce also by lying that he killed Ouri. He wants to be seen as the villain … as the one who declares war by attacking PBs into their castles …
    For how long he’s gonna cover Sara? I think till everyone drop the mask and take its position >> pro or anti coexistence??? For example, the hunters have shown their true colours … that were never actually supported the idea of co-existence. If Kaname reveals later that he hadn’t the intention to wipe off the entire PB’s race what will be hunters’ position then? Aren’t exposed? Also Sara hasn’t reveal yet her entire plan … has allies? The humans in powerful positions what is their role?

    Now as I said I believe that Kaname has specific reasons for killing Hana, Hio and Touma. And maybe somehow the reasons are connected with Yuuki and her safety i.e. with Yuuki’s existence and her status as the LAST Kuran princess.

    * Hanadagi >> involved with Kaname’s wife death in the past or at least is related with his grief over the shattered mirror.

    * Hio: The hint behind his annihilation it might be hidden into Aido-dono’s wording about the most sinful crime in PBs history. >>

    Aido-dono: “At times … Kaname sama will not even hesitate to sacrifice us brutally … I heard that from the deceased Ichiou …”
    Kaname thought that Aido-dono was referring on senate’s annihilation but Aido corrected him and said >>
    Aido-dono: “No … it’s the thing further before (means before senate’s/Asato’s killings) … It’s a little before Shizuka-sama become missing. You participated in the most sinful crime of the PBs.” (chapter 65)

    Now … Shizuka disappeared after she killed the Kiryuus. Also at that time Kaname was a child. In what could he participate?
    But before Shizuka went missing the only known (to us) incident is the attack at Kuran’s mansion from Rido (aided and planned from the senate) with the intention to steal and sacrifice Yuuki and maybe to kill the rest of the Kurans cuz I suppose they wouldn’t hand over Yuuki just like that lol.

    This incident led to death 2 PBs, Haruka and Juuri and Kaname participated by scattering Rido to pieces and by covering up the truth about that night, just like Asato and the senate wanted! The official reason for the vampires’ society about Juuri’s and Haruka’s death was suicide. Also as is stated in the fanbook the murder of PB considered as the biggest crime.

    So that incident couldn’t be described as the most sinful crime??? I think it could since an orchestrated scheme led to the death of 2 Kurans.

    Now, my speculation is that in this scheme the Hio family it might be involved.
    Hints:

    1. The reference from Aido-dono to Shizuka HIO.
    2. Shizuka was caged her entire life from the senate which indicates the cooperation between the senate and the Hio’s clan.
    3. Shizuka was Rido’s fiancée, which means that this engagement was with senate’s approval and maybe was the exchange that Hio took in return for his cooperation.
    4. Asato as he stated used/manipulated the Kuran family, Kaname as a child and especially Rido as tools to control vampires’ society. Rido was giving his blood and played the “stallion” for noble pro-senate families who wanted to reinforce their bloodline. In exchange Asato aid Rido to become the head of the Kurans i.e. to become the leader of vampires. And that it might be the bait for the Hio … if their daughter Shizuka was Rido’s fiancée then they wouldn’t increase their power and influence into vampire’s society? If so, then wouldn’t be for their best interest if the rest of the Kurans cease to exist?
    Also if my memory serves me right I think Kaien had said that the Hio family was distinguished among the other PBs … almost at the same level as the Kurans. If so then perhaps without the Kurans they could be the next in the row family who had the “right” to claim the leadership. (?)
    Anyway my point is that Hio could have the motive and the opportunity as Asato’s ally to be involved into senate’s schemes which first of all wanted the Kurans out off the picture. So there it might lay the reason of why Kaname killed Hio’s head.

    *Touma:
    He attacked Yuuki for none obvious reason, why? Was he so stupid? Because he knew pretty well who Yuuki was. Also he didn’t attend at Kaname’s ball BUT he was informed about Yuuki’s circumstances >>

    - Touma: “ You must be the SHELTERED little brat from the Kurans …”
    http://www.mangareader.net/104-49597-25/vampire-knight/chapter-59.html

    - “First off the stage is FINALLY STARTING TO MOVE towards the bloody violence I love so much…”
    http://www.mangareader.net/104-49597-26/vampire-knight/chapter-59.html

    I think Touma’s words foreshorten the reasons and the intentions of the PBs who are against the Kurans, viz against coexistence.

    Why the stage had started to move finally? Yuuki had done nothing to provoke him.
    At that time Kaname hadn’t done any move towards any PB … so?
    What was the trigger which set the bloody stage in motion???

    IMO Touma’s wording hinted on Yuuki’s revelation as the last Kuran princess and Kaname’s fiancée (sheltered brat) and perhaps on the new contract that Kaname signed with the hunters (coexistence) and moreover as THE LEADER of vampires (his tone when he called Kaname “leader of our people” was like a mockery).

    So the trigger was the ball where Kaname would count his allies (pro-coexistence, pro Kurans)>>
    http://www.mangareader.net/104-29253-26/vampire-knight/chapter-53.html
    >> and would make clear to the entire society WHO is the person he intend to protect the most >>
    http://www.mangareader.net/104-33723-26/vampire-knight/chapter-54.html

    juliet wrote: I think that perhaps Touma's last words.."I have been used" may indicate a different meaning that the one that we are assuming> he could have collaborated with Sara in order to create more conflict with a certain exchange but Sara could have passed him the wrong notes (Lol)> if this is the case then Sara had no doubts who would get the other one out of the game.

    This is also a very logical possibility! His unprovoked assault to Yuuki may be explained if he was Sara’s pawn.

    My point is that bottom line the trigger/magnet for all the evil forces is Yuuki herself … for what she symbolize or for her “special blood” or for what she could bring the path that she’ll walk, or IMO for all the above.

    If Yuuki cease to exist wouldn’t stop the bloodline of the Kurans? Wouldn’t be nullified the core of the pacifism i.e. the Kurans? Isn’t this the main goal for every evil force?

    juliet wrote: the Kurans who are the last barrier of pacifism fall, Asato can gain the game by then controlling the rest of the vampires in a mass rate while he relaxes and enjoys the game as the purebloods (alliances or not) will initiate a war to claim the throne.

    Exactly!!! The last barrier of pacifism is the Kurans (loved that phrase lol) … and in Asato’s place could be Sara now or every force that is anti-coexistence.

    sweetsolace wrote: I think that the idea of creating puppets and armies would be the effects of the tablets and the human prisoners as well as her harem. Though in my opinion all three used for one purpose seems too many, I think only one is intended and the rest we don't know.

    Yes you’re right. I don’t think either that her army, the harem and the human prisoners are serving the same purpose.
    My interpretation is:
    - The army will be created from the vampires who’ll take her tabs >> puppets, ready to sacrifice for her in the upcoming war that she expects.
    - The human prisoners were needed as blood suppliers for the tabs. Either she made a batch before she enters at the Cross academy, either for the oval ones, she needed human blood. Human blood for quantity and her blood or maybe even Hana’s heart for the quality=the side effects she wishes to have the users.
    - The harem hm … Isn’t very clear its purpose. But my feeling currently, is that she made the harem aiming to break the mutual agreement she was talking about. >>
    “The cooperation from the compromised agreement as well as the promise are unreliable things, that they will be broken down someday.
    I will put on my fangs to break the agreement without consent.”

    I think she was referring on the agreement that Kaname recently had signed with the hunters. That contract “sealed” the promise for cooperation between to parties who weren’t exactly under good terms i.e. they compromised (settlement by making concessions) for a common benefit … co-existence. But as we know and saw that agreement was indeed fragile … with the first small opportunity broken down as Sara predicted. Which was the excuse? >> Sara’s harem >> “I will put on my fangs to break the agreement” >> and she did it. Her openly almost provocative move to turn girls into vampires raised suspicions for Kaname’s intentions. Why he didn’t stop her? << Wasn’t this the question that the hunters had? Wasn’t this the excuse to arrest Hanabusa; Kaname’s right hand? Therefore her harem served its purpose.

    yes I agree with you, we've seen purebloods have as much right to live as others, but purebloods existence also creates trouble when they make Level Es so I wonder how they will be allowed to live in the end without causing further conflicts for race.

    I agree too. It is a tough equation. As long as PBs exist there is always the possibility for new conflicts. But can Hino want to create an utopia? A perfect world? A sterilized from evil society? IMO that would be wrong cuz is inexistent.

    That’s why I said above that Kaname’s plan should be multilevel >> he uprooting specific threats (his own devils as juliet said) that aiming on Yuuki i.e. coexistence, but synchronously using these killings to make a point and sent several messages to many directions (PBs, vampires, hunters). The real coexistence will come through the change of twisted notions >>






    http://www.mangareader.net/104-29253-25/vampire-knight/chapter-53.html

    Juliet described vividly the VK world through passages from the manga and the fandbook. In this world the rotten fruit isn’t only the PBs.

    So even if Kaname annihilates ALL the PBs would the evilness cease to exist? Sure there aren’t gonna be any more level-es and sure less conflicts, but that will change the way the noble vampires are seeing the humans as inferiors and as food? Would change the hunters’ instinct for hunting down vampires just cuz are “beasts”?? Would stop the humans to want to exploit vampires’ blood for their superior intelligence/powers and longevity? Is Yuuki’s safety guaranteed under these circumstances even if she’ll be the only remained PB? I don’t think so.

    So the only problem is the PBs? Apparently no. The idea of co-existence doesn’t mean only cease-fire but the uprooting of all the ways, “morals” and twist notions.

    In ancient times existed PBs who aided Kaname to the wars against the PBs who wanted to turn the mankind into slaves. Maybe still exist such PBs with this mentality that with their good example will help more in uprooting the established attitudes and amoral traditions.
    Yuuki certainly has a role to play for the change of wind hence the importance of her protection.
    The way I see it … Yuuki’s protection=protection of real co-existence=protection of a precious brighter future for all.





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    Re: Kaname's Kuran plan of action is heading where?

    Post by caela on Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:26 am

    Nina
    Aido-dono: “No … it’s the thing further before (means before senate’s/Asato’s killings) … It’s a little before Shizuka-sama become missing. You participated in the most sinful crime of the PBs.” (chapter 65)

    Now … Shizuka disappeared after she killed the Kiryuus. Also at that time Kaname was a child. In what could he participate?

    http://www.mangareader.net/104-57815-35/vampire-knight/chapter-65.html

    Is there any chance that the sinful crime that Aido-dono was referring to is from when before Kaname went to sleep? Aido-dono might know that Kaname is the ancestor. I don't have the official translation of that page, so I'm hoping someone has it. I agree that Kaname wouldn't have been able to take part as a child.

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    Re: Kaname's Kuran plan of action is heading where?

    Post by juliet on Tue Oct 11, 2011 1:48 pm

    caela wrote:Nina
    Aido-dono: “No … it’s the thing further before (means before senate’s/Asato’s killings) … It’s a little before Shizuka-sama become missing. You participated in the most sinful crime of the PBs.” (chapter 65)

    Now … Shizuka disappeared after she killed the Kiryuus. Also at that time Kaname was a child. In what could he participate?

    http://www.mangareader.net/104-57815-35/vampire-knight/chapter-65.html

    Is there any chance that the sinful crime that Aido-dono was referring to is from when before Kaname went to sleep? Aido-dono might know that Kaname is the ancestor. I don't have the official translation of that page, so I'm hoping someone has it. I agree that Kaname wouldn't have been able to take part as a child.


    Or Shizuka's murder..






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    Re: Kaname's Kuran plan of action is heading where?

    Post by nina on Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:13 pm

    juliet wrote:
    caela wrote:Nina
    Aido-dono: “No … it’s the thing further before (means before senate’s/Asato’s killings) … It’s a little before Shizuka-sama become missing. You participated in the most sinful crime of the PBs.” (chapter 65)

    Now … Shizuka disappeared after she killed the Kiryuus. Also at that time Kaname was a child. In what could he participate?

    http://www.mangareader.net/104-57815-35/vampire-knight/chapter-65.html

    Is there any chance that the sinful crime that Aido-dono was referring to is from when before Kaname went to sleep? Aido-dono might know that Kaname is the ancestor. I don't have the official translation of that page, so I'm hoping someone has it. I agree that Kaname wouldn't have been able to take part as a child.


    Or Shizuka's murder..


    Mmm… based on the available translations I don’t think that Aido-dono could be referring on an incident before Kaname go into slumber. He defines the time >> before Shizuka went missing so it was before the Kiryuus’ massacre. That’s why I thought the attack at the Kuran’s mansion. However I could be wrong … it’s only a hypothesis, there aren’t solid clues and also he could mean an incident that we don’t know anything about yet.

    I think is not released the official volume which contains this chapter yet.

    *************

    Something I just thought … Kaname confirmed Sara’s lie that he was the one who killed Ouri. This murder is quite different from the other killings of PBs cuz involves the murder of a hunter as well. So I’m curious to see the reaction of the rest of the hunters when they’ll hear the news from Kaien … hm…

    On the other hand Kaname can use an anti-vampire sword and the hunters know about it … so why he needed a hunter’s hand to finish Ouri? To cover up his trails?

    I don’t know … I’m really curious about this … IF and WHO is going to believe this evident lie lol.





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    Re: Kaname's Kuran plan of action is heading where?

    Post by juliet on Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:39 pm

    nina wrote:
    juliet wrote:
    caela wrote:Nina
    Aido-dono: “No … it’s the thing further before (means before senate’s/Asato’s killings) … It’s a little before Shizuka-sama become missing. You participated in the most sinful crime of the PBs.” (chapter 65)

    Now … Shizuka disappeared after she killed the Kiryuus. Also at that time Kaname was a child. In what could he participate?

    http://www.mangareader.net/104-57815-35/vampire-knight/chapter-65.html

    Is there any chance that the sinful crime that Aido-dono was referring to is from when before Kaname went to sleep? Aido-dono might know that Kaname is the ancestor. I don't have the official translation of that page, so I'm hoping someone has it. I agree that Kaname wouldn't have been able to take part as a child.


    Or Shizuka's murder..


    Mmm… based on the available translations I don’t think that Aido-dono could be referring on an incident before Kaname go into slumber. He defines the time >> before Shizuka went missing so it was before the Kiryuus’ massacre. That’s why I thought the attack at the Kuran’s mansion. However I could be wrong … it’s only a hypothesis, there aren’t solid clues and also he could mean an incident that we don’t know anything about yet.

    I think is not released the official volume which contains this chapter yet.

    *************

    Something I just thought … Kaname confirmed Sara’s lie that he was the one who killed Ouri. This murder is quite different from the other killings of PBs cuz involves the murder of a hunter as well. So I’m curious to see the reaction of the rest of the hunters when they’ll hear the news from Kaien … hm…

    On the other hand Kaname can use an anti-vampire sword and the hunters know about it … so why he needed a hunter’s hand to finish Ouri? To cover up his trails?

    I don’t know … I’m really curious about this … IF and WHO is going to believe this evident lie lol.

    About Shizuka; Unfortunately the clues are so few, so we can only take guesses...

    Also it might take a while until we get the official translation of that volume Crying or Very sad yes anyway...

    I was thinking (without excluding other possibilities) that perhaps Aido-dono referred to Shizuka's murder using the word "missing" instead of actually say "killing"...because as we know the vampires do not know that it was Kaname that killed Shizuka...Aido-dono can know from Aidou as we had witnessed the scene so he is an exception but he can be using a more light or suggestive/implied tone..

    This fits with two parts...
    1. The rumour he heard from Asato; that Kaname would not hesitate to sacrifice them
    2. The participation part...

    but it could also be another incident that we do not know yet...

    ----

    Kaname taking on his shoulders Ouri's death is an actual provocation to the hunters> I had the weapons but still used YOU to kill, and Yagari as far as I remember had taken that personally. I do not know if they will use their notion here to see through the message but if they just take it light-hearted (as the most incidents that have happened that far, then what?






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    Re: Kaname's Kuran plan of action is heading where?

    Post by sweetsolace on Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:07 pm

    oh lord I deleted everything I was just about to reply here and now I think I'll just type what I remember *SIGH*

    @juliet
    LOL I didn't include anything about wars in my post but thanks for the effort

    Sara and Asato's plans cant be the same. The president as you say works for Asato and if he works for Asato then he carries on his plans. Sara just controlled the president to make him see HER PLANS, she wouldnt do that if their plans were the same. Asato is the head of the Senate, he also has obligations and duty to uphold the power given to him by the last monarchy, and one of that I believe is the propagating of the blood tablets as part of livelihood convenience for vampires. Since the monarchy was pacifist I think they would also pass on their power to someone with instructions for pacifism, the tablets are the way IMO I think the senate in its own way revolved their beliefs to become an anti Kuran faction eventually.

    there exists pro and anti kuran factions:
    pro - aido, akatsuki, souen
    anti - shiki, ichijou
    the children of this families now go to the academy that was led by one that started pacifism. IMO the idea of this factions were forgotten thru time, which means it EXISTED before, and possibly since ancient times. why were there divided views on peace? maybe this was one of the source of conflict with the monarchy or other reasons, but we know such things exists before and this might have left traces until now, for example in one of the Ichijou (Asato) .

    @nina

    Kaname seems to use a cover or a screen to hide his true plans from all, but the question is why. in my opinion he uses this cover something like smoke.
    For example in a scenario a fire breaks out and people rush to take the things most important to them. In a way Kaname uses the same strategy he starts a smoke and everyone thinks there's a fire, and people grab the things foremost on their thoughts.
    "He smokes them out of their pretense" to make them reveal their sides and their true natures. The selection becomes more clearer then, and if Kaname wishes, he can select his army from there based on a criteria he is looking for.

    Kaname is also responsible for creating the ancestor hunters nature to
    hate vampires, so ironically he became part of the problem in creating
    the solution.
    Coexistence I think is not about erasing ones nature but dealing with it by making it productive or beneficial, and i think this is what kaname's doing. he makes adjustments to their natures so they can live together in peace.

    about sara and what she said in chapter 65 pertaining to the broken treaty, how can that be since the treaty was not officially broken until chapter 68 when Kaname went out in the open to kill? and why she said that when Takuma found out she imprisoned the president it doesnt seem related somehow.

    Kaname confirmed Sara’s lie that he was the one who killed Ouri. This
    murder is quite different from the other killings of PBs cuz involves
    the murder of a hunter as well. So I’m curious to see the reaction of
    the rest of the hunters when they’ll hear the news from Kaien … hm…

    On
    the other hand Kaname can use an anti-vampire sword and the hunters
    know about it … so why he needed a hunter’s hand to finish Ouri? To
    cover up his trails?

    I don’t know … I’m really curious about this … IF and WHO is going to believe this evident lie lol.
    good observation. Razz yes indeed Kaname is testing their common sense and ability to think it seems, LOL, its like a question of:
    will you follow emotions or brain? the hunters were pretty sour when they found out one of them was killed, on the other hand they probably have enough to go by and assume kaname can wield av weapons (it should be in the history books that kurans can do it!! )
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    Re: Kaname's Kuran plan of action is heading where?

    Post by caela on Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:56 am

    Sorry guys, I'm interrupting the flow, but I pulled out the Japanese dictionary and the Japanese Raw for what Aido-dono said about the timing of the greatest crime of Purebloods:

    http://album.blog.yam.com/show.php?a=mso696812&f=7931894&i=17644782&p=34

    Aido-dono: Ie... motto izen no koto desu...

    (my translation: no... more before the thing happened)

    "thing" refers to Kaname killing the entire vampire counsel.

    ie =no
    motto =more
    izen =before
    no =article/particle, hard to translate
    koto =thing
    desu =generic verb for "exist"


    Aido-dono: Shizuka-sama ga yukuefumei ni naru sukoshi mae...

    (my translation: a little before shizuka-sama became missing)

    Yukuefumei= missing
    ni naru= become
    sukoshi= a little
    ga= an article/particle, signifies subject of sentence
    Shizuka-sama= shizuka
    mae =before

    the english scanlation to compare with:

    http://www.mangareader.net/104-57815-35/vampire-knight/chapter-65.html

    also, it's not Kaname participated or observed the crime, he "joined responsibility for" the crime. (the kanji (character) for "join" (ka) and the kanji for "take responsibility for" (nin of ninau) or "bear a burden" are next to each other in the last bubbble furthest to the left).

    The last two syllables of the bubble are shi/ta, and that's for making the verb past tense.

    Now back to your regularly scheduled programming....
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    Re: Kaname's Kuran plan of action is heading where?

    Post by caela on Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:27 am

    Juliet
    Kaname taking on his shoulders Ouri's death is an actual provocation to the hunters> I had the weapons but still used YOU to kill, and Yagari as far as I remember had taken that personally. I do not know if they will use their notion here to see through the message but if they just take it light-hearted (as the most incidents that have happened that far, then what?

    The hunters will probably see red and actually try to kill Kaname. Is Kaname trying to get killed? Well, the only way the Hunters can kill Kaname is if he lets them kill him.

    *************

    Sweetsolace
    there exists pro and anti kuran factions:
    pro - aido, akatsuki, souen
    anti - shiki, ichijou
    the children of this families now go to the academy that was led by one that started pacifism. IMO the idea of this factions were forgotten thru time, which means it EXISTED before, and possibly since ancient times. why were there divided views on peace? maybe this was one of the source of conflict with the monarchy or other reasons, but we know such things exists before and this might have left traces until now, for example in one of the Ichijou (Asato) .

    Even if the factions are obsolete, I felt like Aido/Akatski/Ruka were a group and Takuma/Shiki/Rima were another group; it seemed like these two groups were cliques and they mostly only spoke to others in the same group. (Exception: Takuma spent the most time speaking to both groups because he was vice president of the dorm.) IMO the night class divided into groups based on politics.

    Sorry, I haven't thought much on Sara's and Asato's blood tablets or their world domination plans. I just assumed Kaname will take care of Sara. I have no idea of the details that Ichijo Asato was planning, but he was only a noble vampire. He would not be able to satisfy any megalomania (I love that word:)) without becoming a pureblood. Maybe that is why he started a pharmaceutical company. Perhaps his long term plans involved killing all purebloods or finding a way (with his high-tech company and its research) to become one himself. From his own knowledge of how little control Rido had over his blood slave (Kaname), Ichijo could not have only been planning to use pills; he would need a plan for the purebloods. Hopefully Ichijo Asato is dead?

    ********

    Nina (Re: Most sinful crime in the history of Purebloods)

    Mmm… based on the available translations I don’t think that Aido-dono could be referring on an incident before Kaname go into slumber. He defines the time >> before Shizuka went missing so it was before the Kiryuus’ massacre. That’s why I thought the attack at the Kuran’s mansion. However I could be wrong … it’s only a hypothesis, there aren’t solid clues and also he could mean an incident that we don’t know anything about yet.

    The Rido attack on the Kurans eleven years ago was ruled a double suicide officially, so I don't think that the big crime was that. Shizuka disappeared around five years ago. Maybe it had to do with the level-e vampire that made Yagari lose an eye? That sounds like its in the right time period. (if the event was so big, there has to be a clue of the crime somewhere in the manga)
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    Re: Kaname's Kuran plan of action is heading where?

    Post by juliet on Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:19 pm

    Sara and Asato's plans cant be the same. The president as you say works for Asato and if he works for Asato then he carries on his plans. Sara just controlled the president to make him see HER PLANS, she wouldnt do that if their plans were the same.

    You mean her plan considering what Sara has in her mind about the tablets…and not their general plan to kill all purebloods, (I assume…)

    Sorry, I haven't thought much on Sara's and Asato's blood tablets or their world domination plans. I just assumed Kaname will take care of Sara. I have no idea of the details that Ichijo Asato was planning, but he was only a noble vampire. He would not be able to satisfy any megalomania (I love that word:)) without becoming a pureblood. Maybe that is why he started a pharmaceutical company. Perhaps his long term plans involved killing all purebloods or finding a way (with his high-tech company and its research) to become one himself. From his own knowledge of how little control Rido had over his blood slave (Kaname), Ichijo could not have only been planning to use pills; he would need a plan for the purebloods. Hopefully Ichijo Asato is dead? .

    To sum up a bit of the above;
    Sara’s words to Takuma that describe her goal; After eating each other, it will be good if only one person can remain at the end…
    Asato’s words to Takuma that describe his goal; When I was young, from the very first day i saw their awesome powers...one idea gradually grew in my mind..to manipulate purebloods into devouring one another to their ultimate destruction, the being Rido-same awakened is no exception.

    President lines to Takuma; For the research I intended to understand the danger concerning with pureblood vampires…

    Now, the research has been used in the tablets, we know it as a fact, so since the president made that research I believe that in order for that research to interest Sara in the first place it should fit her plans, eventually be the base that would allow her >
    To manipulate the blood of purebloods (the research is about purebloods)…who also tried to do that? The senate > Haruka's words to Kaname about the Senate’s actions: the senate wants to control purebloods and to manipulate the power of our blood.
    And of course Sara might have adjusted the results of that research to fit the steps of her plan but eventually I think that both Sara and Asato wanted the same thing.

    But, the president of the pharmaceutical company does not necessarily have to be a part of the game or to be in the game, primary he is a scientist, not necessary an ally. All he knows is that he was doing a research concerning the dangers of the purebloods> not the real scope of its use. And that’s logical if he knew would he collaborate? Would he betray them? There are many interests here and there is no reason for the president to know it all since he can be manipulated as well.

    And there is also another element here; this plan > the elimination of purebloods is above Sara and certainly above Asato’s powers.

    I think that one element that they both intended to do was to create conditions of conflict among the purebloods so that the purebloods would start eliminating one another. This is actually what Asato says to Takuma (that purebloods would be manipulated to devour each other) and also a part of what Sara is doing, so she summons threats and forces Kaname to action (see Hanadagi – Touma ) and perhaps Hio (but the reasons here are not clear). And another part is that Asato should have in mind that after the Kuran’s death, many purebloods will come to claim the power, this would be clever since in this way they could eliminate each other (apparently Rido with the hunter’s hand would have helped here).

    So he did have an idea about how to twist the one against the other, his plan seems to be old because he says that “When I was young, from the very first day i saw their awesome powers...one idea gradually grew in my mind..to manipulate purebloods into devouring one another to their ultimate destruction, the being Rido-same awakened is no exception.”

    Now where the tablets get in the game?

    Sara said that she wanted to create an army that would become her hands and her feet> so puppets, now I believe that tablets stand for the controlling powers (one of the most dangerous attributes of purebloods an area the president focused his research on, and one element in purebloods that also Asato found awesome) that can reach the greater population so that Sara has not to move a finger in order to gather servants and allies. Apparently she is doing this so that they can become her supporters and happy supporters and in the worst case scenario and her willing army that will protect the Queen.

    Actually if you think about it its ironic because it would be probably the supporters of pacifism that would mainly use the tablets> thus now they come and follow with their own will. But I am not sure if the tablets are destined only for vampires or humans as well because in the last chapter we see that Kaname says to Ruka to clear the area of any humans, so its well inhabited by human citizens area and its not clear if the ones taking the tablets are humans or vampires or both.

    (A worrying part here is the humans, we see that humans also do not remain unaffected to pureblood’s controlling powers), so if humans take the tablets (example as medicine) that would create a human army which would be very difficult to be killed.
    Ouri’s murder made the hunters furious because a hunter was used > thus the elimination of the hunters should be in her plan if they eat the bait that Kaname now throws…

    Another point here that the ex-president of the hunters said to the hunters prior to dying as Nina said above >” I did my best so the pathetic hunters (great appreciation the president has LOL) would be allowed to live, soon you’ll realize this and regret your actions”, thus the interference of the hunters in Asato’s plan is also another predicted point, that right now matched with Sara’s move to publicly kill Ouri and live all traces behind for the hunters to find.

    If the hunters collaborated with Sara as the ex-president did apparently they would have a better position in her plans? (I am assuming this from what the president says).
    will you follow emotions or brain? the hunters were pretty sour when they found out one of them was killed, on the other hand they probably have enough to go by and assume kaname can wield av weapons (it should be in the history books that kurans can do it!!

    From the last chapter;
    Kaito to Yuuki; Don’t know what that rascal’s aims are. And we also don’t know much about the anti-vampire weapon he’s wielding. But it’s clear that no matter what, you will be spared.

    So they certainly know that he wields an anti-vampire sword but no they do not seem to know much about it, therefore it can not be a weapon that Rido had taken from the HA, it should be logically Kaname’s initial weapon ( I assume) that Rido forfeit in a way. Already this sword has killed two Kuran members; Haruka and baby Kaname, that’s why I think that Aido-dono refers to it as “cursed”, and its curious that this weapon, especially if it was Kaname’s seems to hurt him. So in addition to all that, the hunters know that Kaname wields an anti-vampire sword but they do not know so much about the sword’s powers.

    why were there divided views on peace? maybe this was one of the source of conflict with the monarchy or other reasons, but we know such things exists before and this might have left traces until now, for example in one of the Ichijou (Asato).

    I believe that these factions in a way disguised their beliefs originally about their views on humans because apparently the Senate was the only way to legitimate claim power without them to crush against the Kurans-pro monarchy factions.

    The reason that the Senate was established was to give power to many voices to be heard as the Fanbook says, so that not all power is focused on one family. Now this makes me assume ): that the war had indeed stops, that the monarchs felt that vampire society could rule on its own and there were conditions of peace and prosperity that would allow to such an institution where opposition could be heard to finally function on its own device without the interference of ultimate powers > thus the “Queen Bee” idea had been removed from the politics agenda and the nobles were in a state to govern independently. This is what appeared to be on the surface.

    An opposition of views in certain politic views is welcomed in a democratic institution as Senate was meant to be because that was also the original scope that the Senate would serve; different voices and aspects to be heard. So if Ichijou’s were merely debating certain issues with the pro monarch factions that would be fine; but the Senate was overly abusive as a center of power, surpassing the boundaries of healthy opposition to complete domination over others> actually returning to the state of monarchy- as one ruler has all power, Asato to govern all.

    Slowly the Senate turned into a cruel institution. I do not believe that they changed in time but that certain factions concealed well their intentions until the time would come for them to control everything or their access to power soon corrupted them totally and lost all reason. Shiki was raised to be a puppet and Takuma was destined to be a spy, but Kaname’s influence proved to be better than Asato’s.
    ___________________________________________________
    And another irrelevant issue about Kaname and the period that he entered the slumber with some clues from the manga and the fanbook or what I can gather here..;
    I do not know if it would be interesting to try and estimate the period that Kaname went to slumber. So this would give us an estimation of how old and the Senate was (I think).

    From Kaname’s speech to the Senate, one of the nobles says that “Your great grandfather, the LAST KING of Kurans established….the Senate”, but we know that the monarchy was abolished (from the fanbook) from Haruka’s and Yuuri’s father; his grandfather actually.
    So what we see here is;
    -Great grandfather becomes King to stop the wars.
    -His son as described in the fanbook “the head of the Kuran family, two generatiosn ago, (Haruka Kuran’s father) abolishes the monarchy. So since his father is the Last King, that means that the son never becomes a King himself, instead he summons the Senate right away.
    -Great Grand father is in accordance; the Senate says.. “However your great grandfather, the last king of Kuran, declared that we are a necessary governing system for vampires to exist in balance with the human world”.

    Yuuri says that her grandfather allowed her to go to college, which means that great father and the ex-vampire King was around at least 2.980 years ago.
    Apparently Kaname’s slumber (if he is the great grandfather, but in order to talk to the Senate about his OP which included them, he sounds familiar with them and their scope) was at least 2.980.

    Also notice that Kaname in his monologue when he is talking about his decision to enter slumber says “one less person…one less person..”.
    I think that he refers to losing members of his family due to conflicts and that’s the main reason that Yuuri says she pleaded her great grand father and not her father, who father was the Kuran head (as the fanbook says) to go to college, so why to plead her grandfather?

    I can only guess that a reason might be that her father had been killed (and so the current Kuran head was again her great grandfather) and the same perhaps had happened with his wife, and eventually and Kaname’s original wife. And also that’s the reason that he start getting desperate again as he sees that the ways of the vampires have not changed and that even in this promising system failed and apparently coexistence is a very long way.

    Now what made him to postpone his original plan remains unknown, perhaps it was far too drastic and Kaname believed that perhaps the society still manages through peaceful ways to solve its problems?

    Don’t know if the above make sense but with the current information I cannot draw any more conclusions in the issue.

    My only reservation to the above is if Kaname did not rule at all, meaning he entered slumber before his descendant became King…in this case we can assume that he fought many wars and lost many allies and also his wife – the one with whom he had kids- feeling too desperate he entered slumber but in this case we can not identify his slumber in a time period.

    @And another observation here; wasn't Hanadagi's body too fresh for a guy that was sleeping for 500 years or is it my idea? LOL

    caela wrote:Sorry guys, I'm interrupting the flow, but I pulled out the Japanese dictionary and the Japanese Raw for what Aido-dono said about the timing of the greatest crime of Purebloods:

    http://album.blog.yam.com/show.php?a=mso696812&f=7931894&i=17644782&p=34

    Aido-dono: Ie... motto izen no koto desu...

    (my translation: no... more before the thing happened)

    "thing" refers to Kaname killing the entire vampire counsel.

    ie =no
    motto =more
    izen =before
    no =article/particle, hard to translate
    koto =thing
    desu =generic verb for "exist"


    Aido-dono: Shizuka-sama ga yukuefumei ni naru sukoshi mae...

    (my translation: a little before shizuka-sama became missing)

    Yukuefumei= missing
    ni naru= become
    sukoshi= a little
    ga= an article/particle, signifies subject of sentence
    Shizuka-sama= shizuka
    mae =before

    the english scanlation to compare with:

    http://www.mangareader.net/104-57815-35/vampire-knight/chapter-65.html

    also, it's not Kaname participated or observed the crime, he "joined responsibility for" the crime. (the kanji (character) for "join" (ka) and the kanji for "take responsibility for" (nin of ninau) or "bear a burden" are next to each other in the last bubbble furthest to the left).

    The last two syllables of the bubble are shi/ta, and that's for making the verb past tense.

    Now back to your regularly scheduled programming....

    you read japanese? rofl rofl they all seem the same to me...anyway...thanks for the effort there..


    But in certain meaning the join responsibility can be identified with participated, due to accepting the act...so can that be the overall meaning?

    perhaps something that the Senate did? the crime is connected with killing a pureblood, the vampire's society gravest crime is to kill a pureblood - stated in the fan book, so apart from Haruka, Juuri and Shizuka we do not know anyone dying before do we?.







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    Re: Kaname's Kuran plan of action is heading where?

    Post by mariangie on Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:41 pm

    Note here :

    Chapter 43 in the Shojo Beat Viz edition had a mistake in translation .

    It says :

    Random Vampire Senate member : " However your great - grandfather , the last king of Kuran ... declared... that we are the necessary governing system for vampires ... to exist in balance with the human world . "

    The mistake is saying great - grandfather instead of grandfather . ( This referring to Kaname's supposed grandfather who abolish the monarchy . Who was also Haruka , Rido and Juuri's father .

    The fanbook is right here . ( page 134 from Viz ed . )

    Special note : The beginning of the monarchy and the Senate .

    " The Kuran's became the royal family , and they had full authority over everything . But the head of the Kuran's family ( Haruka's Kuran father ) did not want this and decided to abolish the monarchy . He summoned the Senate to make them govern vampire society instead . Thus , vampires now ruled by classes in the way we know today . "

    So the fanbook says it was Kaname's supposed grandfather ( most probably Kaname's son ) and Yuuki's grandfather who was the one who abolish the monarchy .


    ******************************************

    About how long Kaname was into a slumber . There is little evidence so far . But for what I had . I had posted elsewhere here that I think the estimate period of time for Kaname's slumber is between 1000 and 2000 years prior to his reawakening by Rido .

    As others had said before , one clue is the info Juuri gave during the Bonus chapter of the umbrella incident . Juuri said her grandfather allowed her to study in a place without no vampires near . Kaname is supposed to be this grandfather ( her only one by the way ) . Juuri had lived a little less than 3000 years before dying . So she has to study in a human High school at least a littl more than 2000 years .


    The vampire Senate appears to be formed after Kaname started his slumber . Asato was an old Vampire Sanate member . And he was no older than 500 years when he appear in the V. K. plot . ( I estimate he was a little less than 450 years of age . ) So I think the Senate was not so old as appeared at first glance ( probably 1000 years top ) .

    Hanadagi was told being in his slumber for 500 years . Somehow he wasn't dry after that period . As Sara remarked from her conversation . ( Maybe he got some blood from time to time from his carekeeper . But this is just speculation . )So it appears purebloods mummufied after a long period in a slumber . How long is not stated yet . But it appears 500 years is not enough for mummyfication . So Kaname's slumber had to be longer than 500 years to justify his shape when awakened .

    Also I believe Isaya saying he is 2000 years old and an old pureblood vampire has some meaning in establishing a period of time for Kaname's slumber . Maybe Kaname went to his slumber after Isaya was born . But not proof here .


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    Re: Kaname's Kuran plan of action is heading where?

    Post by caela on Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:20 am

    Juliet
    you read japanese? they all seem the same to me...anyway...thanks for the effort there..


    But in certain meaning the join responsibility can be identified with participated, due to accepting the act...so can that be the overall meaning?

    perhaps something that the Senate did? the crime is connected with killing a pureblood, the vampire's society gravest crime is to kill a pureblood - stated in the fan book, so apart from Haruka, Juuri and Shizuka we do not know anyone dying before do we?.

    You're welcome Smile I only know one language fluently (English, yeah, I'm an American). I happen to live with someone who studied Japanese so I get to borrow the dictionaries (it took four dictionaries and an hour to do half a page of translation, not cool when I had a translation to compare it to).

    About the word choice of Hino-san: The verb "joined responsibility for" I had some pretty heavy duty dictionaries and Hino-san did not use the common words for "participate" nor "observe". The little letters on the right of the kanji (the Japanese version of Chinese characters) are the pronunciation guides, and even with that, I had to individually look up one of the kanji to figure out the meaning of that one verb.

    (English is far easier to read, and not just because its the only language I can read fluently in)

    So, anyways, Hino-san chose a high-level compound verb to express to what extent Kaname was involved with that crime.

    **********

    I agree some pureblood(s) must have died. hmm...I don't know when Shizuka went missing. When she ran away from her cage with her Level-D or was it after her Level-D was executed by the Kiryuus'?

    **********

    I'm getting sleepy, will edit post for other points...Nice work Marieangie on the timeline Smile



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    Re: Kaname's Kuran plan of action is heading where?

    Post by juliet on Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:13 am

    caela wrote:

    You're welcome Smile I only know one language fluently (English, yeah, I'm an American). I happen to live with someone who studied Japanese so I get to borrow the dictionaries (it took four dictionaries and an hour to do half a page of translation, not cool when I had a translation to compare it to).

    About the word choice of Hino-san: The verb "joined responsibility for" I had some pretty heavy duty dictionaries and Hino-san did not use the common words for "participate" nor "observe". The little letters on the right of the kanji (the Japanese version of Chinese characters) are the pronunciation guides, and even with that, I had to individually look up one of the kanji to figure out the meaning of that one verb.

    (English is far easier to read, and not just because its the only language I can read fluently in)

    So, anyways, Hino-san chose a high-level compound verb to express to what extent Kaname was involved with that crime.

    **********

    I agree some pureblood(s) must have died. hmm...I don't know when Shizuka went missing. When she ran away from her cage with her Level-D or was it after her Level-D was executed by the Kiryuus'?

    **********

    I'm getting sleepy, will edit post for other points...Nice work Marieangie on the timeline Smile




    I see...well the bad thing with VK is that we are lost in translation most of the time...and then things get complex...

    @Shizuka went missing after she killed the Kiruys, I think...

    Spoiler:

    So its a little before the incident with the Kiruys=Shizuka went missing, the time period where Aido-dono refers to..If I have understood this right...but it seems that we do not have enough clues about what has happening then, Kaname should be around thirteen- fourteen logically I suppose...


    Chapter 43 in the Shojo Beat Viz edition had a mistake in translation .

    It says :

    Random Vampire Senate member : " However your great - grandfather , the last king of Kuran ... declared... that we are the necessary governing system for vampires ... to exist in balance with the human world . "


    The mistake is saying great - grandfather instead of grandfather . ( This referring to Kaname's supposed grandfather who abolish the monarchy . Who was also Haruka , Rido and Juuri's father .

    The fanbook is right here . ( page 134 from Viz ed . )

    Special note : The beginning of the monarchy and the Senate .

    " The Kuran's became the royal family , and they had full authority over everything . But the head of the Kuran's family ( Haruka's Kuran father ) did not want this and decided to abolish the monarchy . He summoned the Senate to make them govern vampire society instead . Thus , vampires now ruled by classes in the way we know today . "


    So the fanbook says it was Kaname's supposed grandfather ( most probably Kaname's son ) and Yuuki's grandfather who was the one who abolish the monarchy .


    A mistake in the official translation too? scratch you can't trust anyone these days... scratch

    anyway I did not see them anywhere correcting them...do you have this in another language?

    its okay though because it is not contradicting...in overall the Kuran's view on the Senate since the great grandfather was around Yuuri's times we can suspect that he also was in full accordance with his son who abolished monarchy and established the Senate.




    Hanadagi was told being in his slumber for 500 years . Somehow he wasn't dry after that period . As Sara remarked from her conversation . ( Maybe he got some blood from time to time from his carekeeper . But this is just speculation . )So it appears purebloods mummufied after a long period in a slumber . How long is not stated yet . But it appears 500 years is not enough for mummyfication . So Kaname's slumber had to be longer than 500 years to justify his shape when awakened .

    Also I believe Isaya saying he is 2000 years old and an old pureblood vampire has some meaning in establishing a period of time for Kaname's slumber . Maybe Kaname went to his slumber after Isaya was born . But not proof here .

    Yes Hanadagi appeared astonishing fresh, that even Sara notices it...I suspect that Kaname would need at least 2000 years of slumber to justify his condition in relation to Hanadagi, so we agree Very Happy but I would estimate the Senate to be older, because of Yuuri going to college and her grand father still being around (but no mention of her father) so I would make it 1.000 years older than Yuuri. Now apparently the members of the Senate can change over time, unfortunately their nature stayed the same.

    Isaya says that he is 2000 years old and remember that his wife also turned their off spring to human (apparently such an act comes from necessity since it also means a sacrifice there) which means that the conditions that the Senate was building were started a long time ago before Yuuki's time; as Kaname said they made an "invisible prison" where the young vampires would be manipulated. And Kaname said that you are the first ones...

    What I do not understand is how the Senate possessed so much power in manipulating the purebloods;

    I understand this for the pacifists, if they acted otherwise they would be interfered in a war with the Senate eventually as Haruka and Yuuri eventually did, losing their lives because the Senate could not control them and so it send Rido to harm them.
    But the other purebloods is still puzzling...there were the ones that approximately could also fulfill their plans through the senate and so they stayed in the darkness, letting Asato to meet the target. But this does not also mean that one day they would come forth finally to seek the ultimate power after the Kurans had died?

    We have seen the Senate acting as the bad ones, but apparently there had to be more purebloods there like Sara and Rido that expected the moment to come to fulfill their plans. The senate could not have been the only "rotten" element in this game or it would not have survived that far...






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    Re: Kaname's Kuran plan of action is heading where?

    Post by sweetsolace on Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:20 pm

    @juliet

    Now, the research has been used in the tablets, we know it as a
    fact, so since the president made that research I believe that in order
    for that research to interest Sara in the first place it should fit her
    plans, eventually be the base that would allow her >
    To
    manipulate the blood of purebloods (the research is about
    purebloods)…who also tried to do that? The senate > Haruka's words to
    Kaname about the Senate’s actions: the senate wants to control
    purebloods and to manipulate the power of our blood.
    And of course
    Sara might have adjusted the results of that research to fit the steps
    of her plan but eventually I think that both Sara and Asato wanted the
    same thing.
    I believe its too early to say that she wants to destroy purebloods (esp when she does nothing to achieve that even with the tablets), its safe to say she wants to be queen but wanting all purebloods dead? and IF the research as you say is = blood tablets then how come she's not distributing it to the doorsteps of pureblood families if she wants them dead.
    and again I'll repeat , the words of the president seemed pro peace
    For the research I intended to understand the danger concerning with pureblood vampires…
    he wanted to understand the DANGER of purebloods, not the power of purebloods. IMO he sounds like Aido-dono. I imagine if that was Asato, he would not be interested in the danger, but the power of the purebloods. Moreover if he DID control the research, why wouldn't he have used that to his advantage in the first arc?? he would have stopped relying on Rido to do the legwork for him and ultimately had done his goal, he didn't need "purebloods to devour each other" IF he alraedy had a means to destroy them by his hands thru the research.
    Therefore leads me to think the pres was acting on his own agenda with the research. Asato was just the founder, but he doesnt have to control the operations inside the company, that's what the President is there for.
    the pres said Sara was going to use it to cause more trouble later on. Again another hint he is pro peace since he doesnt want trouble.
    Sara manipulating him meant it was needed to get him to cooperate.

    so puppets, now I believe that tablets stand for the controlling powers
    (one of the most dangerous attributes of purebloods an area the
    president focused his research on, and one element in purebloods that
    also Asato found awesome
    )
    what? Did you imagine the president said what the danger of pureblood was all about?? Razz

    it doesn't fit. you saying Asatos plans to extinguish all purebloods and then Sara making tablets that will affect the population (not the purebloods) how will she kill all? she's not even targetting the hunters to make them eat her tablets, she needed hunters to kill purebloods and her tablets are not targetting them, so how are their plans the same?


    the war had indeed stops, that the monarchs felt that vampire society
    could rule on its own and there were conditions of peace and prosperity
    that would allow to such an institution where opposition could be heard
    to finally function on its own device without the interference of
    ultimate powers > thus the “Queen Bee” idea had been removed from the
    politics agenda and the nobles were in a state to govern independently.
    This is what appeared to be on the surface.

    but the Senate was overly abusive as a center of power, surpassing the
    boundaries of healthy opposition to complete domination over others>
    actually returning to the state of monarchy- as one ruler has all power,
    Asato to govern all.

    Slowly the Senate turned into a cruel institution. I do not believe
    that they changed in time but that certain factions concealed well their
    intentions until the time would come for them to control everything or
    their access to power soon corrupted them totally and lost all reason.
    Shiki was raised to be a puppet and Takuma was destined to be a spy, but
    Kaname’s influence proved to be better than Asato’s.

    I agree and nicely said, in my impression some of the council members seemed to have nurtured a grudge towards the previous monarchy enough to have formed an anti Kuran faction that lasted even after the monarchy was removed.
    In the chapter of Rido's first appearance as he was being resurrected, Shiki's uncle had participated in concealing Rido's resurrection inside what appears to be an underground basement
    http://www.mangareader.net/104-2155-13/vampire-knight/chapter-29.html
    http://www.mangareader.net/104-2155-14/vampire-knight/chapter-29.html
    Only when Shiki was at the right age did his uncle exposed their family's "secret" which was Rido's revival.
    And apparently the anti faction didn't stop going against the Kurans BEFORE that.
    they were responsible for giving Rido "dogs" by which he used in the attack on the Kuran mansion to take Yuki. So they kept Rido away as a pretense they were doing their job after he killed baby Kaname, but eventually they also massively supported taking down the Kurans to take Yuki.

    (*another possible hint to Yuki's importancy here: they only decided to take her when she was aged old enough, and throughout that her parents already created measures to isolate her. So how did Juri and Haruka were CERTAIN Yuki will be targeted next time that they have to hide her? They had managed to "hide" her until she was 5, but how is that reasonable considering Rido knows where they live? Also the council supported Rido to attack the mansion and take Yuki, but in reality there are other pureblood babies out there if he just wanted fresh meat.
    So why Yuki?
    And why the parents still stayed in the mansion to hide her even knowing Rido can go back there easily? So in my opinion, I think they were preparing for what will happen that can save Yuki rather than preventing her from being kidnapped.
    Juri's words, "Let's do what we've planned for her all along...to give her a different life"
    IMO Juri could've done it earlier for Yuki when she was first born, but she waited until Rido attacked their mansion. Kaname also thought of turning yuki to change her destiny. So why this two people willing to sacrifice their lives for her? And if Rido indeed just wanted fresh meat he can also take Kaname but he didn't.
    And why does Yuki need a different life from being a pureblood? Juri must know it would only be temporary.. and why does Kaname need to back up Juri's plan incase she fails? There's always the alternative of putting Yuki away some place as a pureblood but somehow I get the impression that it had to be that moment and no other time but that moment...
    I think it has to do with reawakening bad memories in her... )

    Shiki planned to resurrect Rido, Rido who is allies with Asato. I think it also works for Asato's plans to revive him and eventually to go against Kaname but the fact is that some of the members of this families have been scheming things against the Kurans (as an anti Kuran faction) ever since Rido was found to have killed baby Kaname.

    Maybe they were not hiding it? Maybe some of this members, like Asato, was waiting for the revival of the ancestor Kaname to begin his antagonism? Maybe he had hatred towards him in particular and until he came to be, Asato did not shown to make any moves against the Kurans.
    Asato was probably alive long enough to know Kaname is the ancestor, so I bet he knows something... and he was just waiting for the perfect time to be the anti-Kuran faction again, something like that.


    @And another observation here; wasn't Hanadagi's body too fresh for a guy that was sleeping for 500 years or is it my idea? LOL
    Sara said he wasn't "dried up" and she thought she might have needed to feed him a snack to freshen him up. I recall he was supposed to sleep 900 years but was awakened before that so I think its not too exaggerated to see him still fresh rofl
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    Re: Kaname's Kuran plan of action is heading where?

    Post by caela on Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:03 am

    Juliet
    So its a little before the incident with the Kiruys=Shizuka went missing, the time period where Aido-dono refers to..If I have understood this right...but it seems that we do not have enough clues about what has happening then, Kaname should be around thirteen- fourteen logically I suppose...

    Thank you Juliet for the explanation. So the terrible crime happened 5 years ago...

    *******

    Quick side note: I think that the mangafox forum has a thread on pureblood aging: purebloods twice as slow as humans, until the pureblood lived 60 years, then they stop aging and they look 30 y/o like Juuri and Haruka.

    Yuuki was six when she became human and Kaname was around 13. Ten years later, Yuuki is sixteen and Kaname is 18. Right now, Yuuki is 16.5 years old and Kaname is 18.5 years old. At the time of the terrible crime, Kaname was about 16 years old in vampire years.

    ********

    My theory on this greatest crime concerning Purebloods:

    In the first arc, there are alot of level-E's in the town and somehow the Vampire Council and Hunter Association were able to keep good surveillance and kill the level-E's. My problem is where do all these level-E's come from and how come the situation is so well controlled.

    What is more suspicious is that the Hunter Association had control of their own Level-E's.

    http://www.mangareader.net/104-2171-11/vampire-knight/chapter-45.html

    The corrupt former president of the Hunter Association must have a pureblood ally controlling the level-E's. The same corrupt former president made a deal with the Vampire council as well: So this deal might be a three way deal between the two organizations and the mystery pureblood.

    The Vampire council and the Hunter Association are probably feeding their pureblood, and the food is human blood. Said pureblood feeds on humans, makes some level-D's and which explains the periodic release of Level-E's into the town.

    This mystery pureblood does not have full control over his/her powers: I believe this explains the attack on the Kuran's for Yuuki eleven years ago.

    Sweetsolace
    another possible hint to Yuki's importancy here: they only decided to take her when she was aged old enough, and throughout that her parents already created measures to isolate her. So how did Juri and Haruka were CERTAIN Yuki will be targeted next time that they have to hide her? They had managed to "hide" her until she was 5, but how is that reasonable considering Rido knows where they live? Also the council supported Rido to attack the mansion and take Yuki, but in reality there are other pureblood babies out there if he just wanted fresh meat.
    So why Yuki?

    Yuuki's blood can break memory spells and apparently was able to partially break through the human spell (her blood tasted sweet to Aidou in chapter 1 and there is no way Aidou was in love with Yuuki then). Perhaps her blood has some special healing or stabilizing ability. Why would our mystery pureblood need healing/stabilizing?

    I think the hint is in the Shizuka death scene:

    http://www.mangareader.net/104-2130-26/vampire-knight/chapter-20.html

    http://www.mangareader.net/104-2130-27/vampire-knight/chapter-20.html

    Kaname: the one who ruined the destiny of the purebloods, I will surely destroy it.

    Shizuka: A pureblood vampire who ate a pureblood...You have earned a new strength, but at the same time you have summoned a sinister future. Wherever you will go, there will be darkness Kaname.

    Kaname is speaking about the enemy of the purebloods and Shizuka responds with a description of Kaname: a pureblood who ate a pureblood. What if she actually was describing the enemy of the purebloods?. It might be a coincidence that Kaname also fits that description.

    If the enemy of the purebloods is a pureblood who ate other purebloods, then that mystery person's weakness might be their sanity. Lots of other people's memories and too much power might accumulate in one person and drive them mad? That might be the sinister future?

    The greatest crime of the purebloods might be that since the first Yuuki attack failed, that enemy became too unstable and dangerous. The senate might have fed this monster a sacrifice for the sake of controlling the beast: another pureblood.

    What Kaname is doing right now is visiting vampire families and killing selected purebloods. He might be trying to kill antagonist purebloods to coexistence but he might also be trying to limit the potential food supply for the monster pureblood. Purebloods make great power food.

    (This is just a big messy theory. I could be very very wrong)
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    juliet
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    Re: Kaname's Kuran plan of action is heading where?

    Post by juliet on Sat Oct 15, 2011 2:16 pm

    believe it’s too early to say that she wants to destroy purebloods (esp when she does nothing to achieve that even with the tablets), its safe to say she wants to be queen but wanting all purebloods dead? and IF the research as you say is = blood tablets then how come she's not distributing it to the doorsteps of pureblood families if she wants them dead.

    It could be early to say that but why not kill them? look what she says to Takuma> After eating each other, it will be good if only one person can remain at the end… Sara is not wielding anti-vampire weapons, she is not a threat to other purebloods like Kaname can be, Asato was even in a lower rank than her and again he was no real threat to purebloods like Rido could be.

    And to tell you and an additional point if she does not create conflict that will implicate and the rest of purebloods, then how is she going to assure that she will be Queen and remain Queen if other purebloods are left available and she does not posses the power to exterminate them, while now she is using a hunter's hand and in a way its her opportunity to clean the field.

    But the gap remains how would Sara/Asato intend/intended to kill their purebloods enemies?

    Asato has answered that; he would manipulate purebloods to devour each other and apparently use Rido as his hunter hand. So who Sara uses for that scope? Or seems to use? It’s obvious.

    Now she started with Ouri…turning a hunter to a vampire so that she could control him (breaking woth her fangs the promised agreement) she creates a conflict between Kaname and the hunters as it rises questions and suspicions> the ball that signifies the peace treaty agreement is in reality a failure and actually destroyed by that incident> Ouri’s murder is concealed by both parts due to politic reasons and the official report is that Ouri sacrificed a hunter because he wanted to die (partly true)> this leads Yuuki in believing that she can protect innocent lives from being used and offers herself at the service of the purebloods> Touma appears on her way to stop her from offering “peaceful ways” and to challenge Kaname’s authority to govern> Kaname turns against Touma who seems to speak of a “war” where he already had started it> Sara moves to Hanadagi’s castle> as we know Kaname was forced for some reason to instantly kill him…

    Sara does not worry about Hana because IMO she knows that Kaname will take action> somehow that leads to another two purebloods exterminated > Hio and later Touma> Kaname may have his own reasons but meanwhile how many are eliminated due to actually one action that Sara did> awakening Hanadagi.

    Kaname may to his own reasons vanish certain future threats for Sara’s plans, perhaps later Sara intends to change the anti-vampire hand that she uses, if Kaname’s hands stops serving her purposes. So she needs to create other conditions that can bring down the rest of purebloods (Yuuki and Kaname included). Then she will need to use the hunters or someone of them…so they cannot remain unaffected. Asato also said that Rido was not excluded from his list; he would kill him eventually> so he also needed the hunters and therefore he had so so close relationships with the vampire hunter’s president.

    I see that the tactics used here are overly the same, we cannot predict the exact steps, conditions have change but I do not see contradiction points between the two plans. Both Asato and Sara were seeing humans as slaves, they both want the Kurans to fall and remain at the top of the pyramid, Asato did want to exterminate all purebloods and I see that Sara’s actions have put in the game other purebloods as well> notice how the hunters seeing Kaname acting the way they do jump in the conclusion that he wants to exterminate all purebloods> but in reality you can say that for Sara since she initiates action that lead Kaname in acting so> and why are they saying ALL when only the heads are hurt? Are they so stupid or there is something that we do not know? As for example that Kaname in this way evading castles and killing the heads, provokes the rest of the purebloods to unite against him because of their fear > thus at some point they will have to take measurements and go against him> thus he can take them all down> thus the hunters say that they will Allow him to move with his action and kill them all?

    I mean there are ways that Sara can reach that potential to eliminate and the rest of purebloods without even moving from her spot because here she manipulates conditions that suit her plans. Until now we have not seen the rest of the pureblood families reacting, (Rima says that purebloods are watching and waiting). But this does not mean that they will not react and protect their interest in the near future. Usually when facing a common enemy, all parties unite to create a defense.

    IF the research as you say is = blood tablets then how come she's not distributing it to the doorsteps of pureblood families if she wants them dead.
    and again I'll repeat , the words of the president seemed pro peace
    For the research I intended to understand the danger concerning with pureblood vampires…

    You think that the research was not used in the blood tablets Sara made?
    We agree that the president’s words seems pro peace but eventually as I wrote in my previous post, he never had to know the scope, the first goal was to make a research so that he could get some results of it, one thing at the time.

    As I said before...

    But, the president of the pharmaceutical company does not necessarily have to be a part of the game or to be in the game, primary he is a scientist, not necessary an ally. All he knows is that he was doing a research concerning the dangers of the purebloods> not the real scope of its use. And that’s logical if he knew would he collaborate? Would he betray them? There are many interests here and there is no reason for the president to know it all since he can be manipulated as well.

    Now back to you;

    you saying Asatos plans to extinguish all purebloods and then Sara making tablets that will affect the population (not the purebloods) how will she kill all? she's not even targetting the hunters to make them eat her tablets, she needed hunters to kill purebloods and her tablets are not targetting them, so how are their plans the same?


    Asato said that he wanted to extinguish all purebloods and Sara says that wants one person to be left alone in the end, not I…

    The tablets have as a target the general population> this does not change the fact that Sara may want to get all the purebloods out of the way so she has no rivals for the throne. The one point does not contradict each other because there are two dimensions here; purebloods and general vampires/ex-humans that can be controlled with pureblood powers. And apparently her control over the general population will give her an army that can also protect her and support her majesty in relation to how accepted and favorite among others she will be> (see Yuuki’s case).

    This is why I asked you if your disagreement concerns Asato’s plan in overall thus the fact that Sara wants to dominate all, remain the one and bring down pacifism or if you disagree just with the tablet’s theory.

    For the first part I rest my case as I explained it above…I guess that the future will tell what Sara wants to do…we can only theorize for now based on some hints, but why Sara not be wanting all the purebloods dead? Here the hunters want them dead.
    For the tablets theory what makes me consider that the tablets might have been initially in Asato’s mind as well as a vehicle that they would allow him to control the vampire world – as Sara seems to want to do right now… (Overly this part it is just for the fun of the discussion because it plays no role in what happens now).
    Hints;

    1. Asato allowed the development of the tablets made by the NC… (yes that could be a move in order to conceal better his true colors but apparently would it be so bizarre if he had thought to take advantage of them since they were so popular?) And was Asato’s decision to own a pharmaceutical company accidental or did he want to control something in particular? What was Asato’s interest in medicines? Wasn’t the Senate enough?

    2. After one year of Asato’s death, the president of the pharmaceutical company comes up with a research intending to understand the danger concerning with pureblood vampires…So another coincidence, not only he used to work for Asato, not only he has ready the results of the study in the right time for Sara to use it, but the study also considers the dangers considering the pureblood vampires. And Sara also accidental moves in for the research that suits her plans and can be used to do terrible things? Or discovers it with her visit there? No, she knew that the president had a research there, that’s why she visits him. That’s why she wants to control the pharmaceutical company and she also needs Takuma. And Takuma says that Sara was a person that the president had met in the past. But when in the past? Because it seems that after Asato’s death, Takuma has not visited the president again.

    3. So wouldn’t it make more sense if Asato also knew about the research and also if had also the same idea to use it once it would be finished? What we have to see here is that Asato’s plan to dominate over the society apparently could not stop with killing the Kurans. The Kurans were an obstacle that he intended to eliminate by using Rido. But he needed other means as well that would allow him to control the vampires in general so the oppositions between nobles (pro-monarch, anti-senate) could be erased. He could manipulate purebloods into devouring each other, but how did he intend to manipulate the greatest population? This especially for Asato’s powers would be impossible. If Sara needs this step> making slaves and an army to secure her position, imagine how much Asato would be needing such a thing. And here is where the president’s phenomenal research becomes handy.

    4. Asato seems to be thinking about the dangers considering pureblood vampires first of all> “The power of that blood, which can control us all at will, purebloods are the natural enemies of the vampire society...” so Asato in reality considers purebloods to be a danger> why? Due to controlling powers. So just think the phrase “dangers concerning the pureblood vampires”? Dangers related to what? What are the dangers considering the pureblood vampires? Changing humans to level-e? This aspect relates to humans. For the vampires the greatest danger that the purebloods summon is the use of the controlling powers. So I think that this was the research about- how dangerous the powers can become if used under certain ways and the effects over the population> not just the powers but the actual use of the powers that eventually create the danger. At least that’s how I interpret this phrase in relation to how Sara uses this research to do terrible things> I suspect that the ultimate use of the tablets is to tame and to control the vampires as Sara wants.

    5. A reason that Haruka hides Yuuki from the Senate is as he says to Kaname because; “the senate wants to control purebloods and to manipulate the power of our blood”. So he is actually answering that the Senate would manipulate Yuuki and the power of her blood if they got her but they hide her in order to protect her.

    Hio’s gave Shizuka as a baby to the Senate, Haruka hides Yuuki from the world, and Isaya’s wife turns their child into human. So it’s evident that the Senate wants to do something with these children, they are not holding them or ruining families just for fun. Kaname says to the Senate that you made an “invisible prison” and Yuuki is a case where an invisible prison applies because their ways and manipulation forced her in hiding from the world. But in which ways does the Senate want to manipulate the powers of the pureblood?

    Notice that idea of manipulating pureblood stretches back in time, its not new. The idea to manipulate the purebloods powers existed. The intention was there. So in this underground and unseen war between vampires there is already an idea formed by the Senate that they can use these pureblood powers in their advantage. What is missing is the “vehicle” where these powers will be used in a greater scale because in reality other than purebloods offering straight their blood to certain targets we do not see a large-scale manipulation. So I wonder can the “idea” of the tablets be going way back as a mean to later become the main way of manipulating these powers?

    What the tablets need are development and the NC manages to make them popular and effective > This is why I think that Asato as a leader of the Senate and eventually of all the schemes that were going underneath the peaceful surface, found himself owing a pharmaceutical company> because there was a concealed weapon under development that needed further experiments and needed pureblood in order to finally meet its final target> this weapon needed several stages…it was not ready and it also needed promotion and recognition as being effective and accepted > what the NC achieved.

    This does not exclude the Senate serving multiple interest and manipulating the blood in several ways, but also I do not see why the tabs could not be one of them?

    All these of course are a theory but the link between Asato and the president existed, the intention was there and the tablets eventually were used to reach the general population > could Asato disregard such an opportunity to finally manipulate the powers of the purebloods and establish his position that as a noble he needed more than actually Sara needs it right now? I do not exclude the possibility because it blends many elements together.

    I stop here with these eventually we can proceed and in other theories as I think this point has been stretched enough...because its too long I write up to here and preserve my thoughts in Yuki's significance -that in overall she seems to be much of a target for everyone- for later.

    @ rofl rofl In relation to Kaname's mess, Hana is fresh...Unless Hanadagi was not sleeping...had put the family to sleep and he was clubbing around with youngsters, haha...

    meanwhile..another point with Hana..that he is considered the protector of purebloods...back in ancient times we see the hunters and Kaname kill purebloods, the ikilling of a pureblood was not considered a crime, there is no actual sinister act in it, its more an ideology. Kaname asks Aido dono why purebloods should not be killed or why are they considered sacred? so that means that his "idea" did not came from the Kurans, it was somebody else making and law..and Hana is the protector. So another point that relates Hana to the past and to the Senate as well? just a suggestion.


    Kaname is speaking about the enemy of the purebloods and Shizuka responds with a description of Kaname: a pureblood who ate a pureblood. What if she actually was describing the enemy of the purebloods?. It might be a coincidence that Kaname also fits that description.

    If the enemy of the purebloods is a pureblood who ate other purebloods, then that mystery person's weakness might be their sanity. Lots of other people's memories and too much power might accumulate in one person and drive them mad? That might be the sinister future?

    The greatest crime of the purebloods might be that since the first Yuuki attack failed, that enemy became too unstable and dangerous. The senate might have fed this monster a sacrifice for the sake of controlling the beast: another pureblood.

    What Kaname is doing right now is visiting vampire families and killing selected purebloods. He might be trying to kill antagonist purebloods to coexistence but he might also be trying to limit the potential food supply for the monster pureblood. Purebloods make great power food. Kaname is speaking about the enemy of the purebloods and Shizuka responds with a description of Kaname: a pureblood who ate a pureblood. What if she actually was describing the enemy of the purebloods?. It might be a coincidence that Kaname also fits that description.

    If the enemy of the purebloods is a pureblood who ate other purebloods, then that mystery person's weakness might be their sanity. Lots of other people's memories and too much power might accumulate in one person and drive them mad? That might be the sinister future?

    The greatest crime of the purebloods might be that since the first Yuuki attack failed, that enemy became too unstable and dangerous. The senate might have fed this monster a sacrifice for the sake of controlling the beast: another pureblood.

    What Kaname is doing right now is visiting vampire families and killing selected purebloods. He might be trying to kill antagonist purebloods to coexistence but he might also be trying to limit the potential food supply for the monster pureblood. Purebloods make great power food.


    Caela I was a bit lost between purebloods and monsters? can you explain it clearer so that we see what's the actual theory? like who do you think that is the enemy of purebloods?

    One theory is that it is Rido due to awakening Kaname and collaborating with the council plus that led to Haruka and Yuuri's death and also a changed destiny for Yuki the became human and Kaname was forced in acting like that to guard her.

    Another theory is that the "enemy of the purebloods" could be another hidden threat from the past- an ancestor- that eventually is the final mastermind. But the latest theory needs a development...

    Edit to add: okay I sort it out, I think Razz , I see you incline towards the second theory; that the enemy of the pureblood that Kaname says that he intends to kill is not Rido but another pureblood/collaborating with the Senate that he needed power in order to be strong...and so the Senate after failing to get Yuuki to become a "sacrifice" used another pureblood in her position...to feed that monster while they also preserved Rido there and also feeding him with blood in order to resurrect him...

    It could be and it could be referring also to Rido who eventually needed as much as blood as possible as he could get in order to retrieve his first form/ the bad to this theory is that we are missing a candidate victim.

    But the Senate is confirmed (through Haruka) that intended to use the blood of pureblood and that's also another possible direction that the scenario could stretch. What were they needed the pure blood for? Why was Shizuka held there, It remains a mystery.

    @ About Yuki's blood;

    I think we can see that Yuki's powers are slowly revealed/ it seems like there are facts-powers that even Yuki does not know about herself and this fact can be attributed to the fact that she lost 10 years of development as a pureblood.

    Aido had said to Zero a lot of time ago that in reality the powers that purebloods have are unknown, only a pureblood knows his own powers. So its a bit confusing; Rido wanted to devour Yuuki and get her power but eventually Yuuki was presented as too weak, so was the trait that only the Kuran blood has and Rido needed so bad?

    Kaname said when visiting Rido's tomb that "take it the purest blood of Kuran, you corrupted everything for that"...he needs the Kuran blood to be resurrected regardless of how much blood he has received in the past. Why because of the lineage? or because of the blood's quick healing attributes? So getting Yuuki there should be a must in order for Rido's resurrection to be completed.

    Powers that we see in Yuuki;
    -breaking spells
    -helping others to retrieve their memories
    -ability to transform in a butterfly
    -anti-vampire power
    -(?) re-generating powers that heal fast (thus Kaname used his own blood as a medicine back in time for humans).

    With all the above and the pacifism attributes that Yuuki has is no wonder that Kaname wanted in the house as much as possible when she was still defenseless.












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    caela
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    Re: Kaname's Kuran plan of action is heading where?

    Post by caela on Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:59 am

    Juliet
    okay I sort it out, I think , I see you incline towards the second theory; that the enemy of the pureblood that Kaname says that he intends to kill is not Rido but another pureblood/collaborating with the Senate that he needed power in order to be strong...and so the Senate after failing to get Yuuki to become a "sacrifice" used another pureblood in her position...to feed that monster while they also preserved Rido there and also feeding him with blood in order to resurrect him...

    It could be and it could be referring also to Rido who eventually needed as much as blood as possible as he could get in order to retrieve his first form/ the bad to this theory is that we are missing a candidate victim.

    But the Senate is confirmed (through Haruka) that intended to use the blood of pureblood and that's also another possible direction that the scenario could stretch. What were they needed the pure blood for? Why was Shizuka held there, It remains a mystery.

    @ About Yuki's blood;

    I think we can see that Yuki's powers are slowly revealed/ it seems like there are facts-powers that even Yuki does not know about herself and this fact can be attributed to the fact that she lost 10 years of development as a pureblood.

    Aido had said to Zero a lot of time ago that in reality the powers that purebloods have are unknown, only a pureblood knows his own powers. So its a bit confusing; Rido wanted to devour Yuuki and get her power but eventually Yuuki was presented as too weak, so was the trait that only the Kuran blood has and Rido needed so bad?

    Kaname said when visiting Rido's tomb that "take it the purest blood of Kuran, you corrupted everything for that"...he needs the Kuran blood to be resurrected regardless of how much blood he has received in the past. Why because of the lineage? or because of the blood's quick healing attributes? So getting Yuuki there should be a must in order for Rido's resurrection to be completed.

    Powers that we see in Yuuki;
    -breaking spells
    -helping others to retrieve their memories
    -ability to transform in a butterfly
    -anti-vampire power
    -(?) re-generating powers that heal fast (thus Kaname used his own blood as a medicine back in time for humans).

    With all the above and the pacifism attributes that Yuuki has is no wonder that Kaname wanted in the house as much as possible when she was still defenseless.


    Sorry for the slow response; I needed some time before even approaching the topic again (so few clues, so guessing is just guessing).

    ***********

    About Rido:

    I feel like he couldn't have been the enemy of the purebloods; Thirteen year old Kaname blasted Rido into chunks eleven years ago and Rido only recovered partially in time for his attack on Cross Academy. Rido was blamed for putting Shizuka's level-D lover on the execution list five years ago, but Rido was still not recovered.

    *********

    About the candidate victim:

    I think the candidate victim was supposed to be killed by Shizuka Hio. She might have said "no" to being an assassin and her lover was killed as a punishment.

    Her refusal put her in danger, so she pretended to be insane to protect anyone who was close to her and then she went missing.

    Her "revenge" on the Kiryu's might have been a calculated attempt at gaining power: she took Ichiru and made the stronger twin, Zero, a blood servant, without giving Zero any of her own blood. Her attempt to control the cursed twins may have been a way to get more power to defend herself and revenge herself against the enemy of the purebloods.

    When Zero was now old enough to be useful, she went to Cross Academy.

    *********

    The actual intended victim for Hio to kill (and probably the eventual victim of the greatest crime of the pureblood history) was probably another pureblood child and a relative of the Kurans, like Yuuki was. If child Yuuki was the preferred target, the next best target would be another Kuran pureblood (especially with all the emphasis on needing Kuran pureblood, as you pointed out Juliet): is it possible that Rido and Shizuka had a child....

    Maybe Shizuka had a child with Rido that she was hiding? If she loved her level-D lover so much, what other possible reason would there be for Hio being separate from him when he was executed by the Kiryuu's?

    I guess I see it as Shizuka was aware of an impending simultaneous attack on her Level-D lover and an attack on her child. Both were in different places. Shizuka chose to save her child but was not fast enough to save the child.

    *******

    I'm confused by what you mean by Yuuki's anti-vampire power...


    *******

    With all the above and the pacifism attributes that Yuuki has is no wonder that Kaname wanted [Yuuki]in the house as much as possible when she was still defenseless.

    Agreed.

    *********


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