Yuki's relationship with Zero (chapter 73-74)

First topic message reminder :

what do you think?

Based on chapter 73-74 revelations, is it friendship or romance?

For me its always been friendship between them and this chapter just clarified it.
There was nothing strong enough to indicate romance between them as it was not mutual and Zero's the only one who loves Yuki.

Howl4fun wrote:

sweetsolace wrote:

Howl4fun wrote:

Lol, guess you're right XD I always felt MF was pretty evened out though, not counting the polls, but w/e. I'd rather discuss there as moderators are stricter and no fandom can say anything rude about the other without being banned (well, most of the time). Saying why I believe in zeki here... from what I can predict of replies I'd rather not. It'll become a shipping war one way or the other. I'm pretty experienced at that now, lol. I hope people will have fun with this thread either way though, but count me out.

no one actually stops one from choosing which forum to discuss.
Though I can guess why you're more comfortable discussing there along with your ZEKI buddies to back you up anytime you get too tired to reply while here I can imagine we just tire you more often that not. I guess you feel you can't freely discuss here for some reason I will never understand sorry you don't feel too welcomed , I suppose its because there are few ZEKI fans to join you in debates. Probably you're the type who's secure with numbers.

LOL and there you go. Behaving nice didn't take long. My point was I wouldn't get into more LT discussion because, yeah I'm tired like you said XD And just like I will probably have alot of yumes against me here you will have alot of them backing you up... isn't that a bit contradictory on your point?

I doubt it has anything to do with being nice, clearly we are both being personal here. if that's all you wanted to say, that you don't like getting into LT discussions, then why not just say only that, or better yet say nothing at all the comparisons with MF and this forum were unnecessary, or saying you like it better there.

And... what would be the reason you post more here than of MF I wonder? tsk tsk.

of course not the same reason as yours. I love this place, its more peaceful in my terms. The discussion flows more smoothly and the opinions vary even from the same fandom.

I'd be very glad if we could end an argument before it turns nasty between us again. It's getting SO old. I'd think you feel the same.

I agree but since you're the one who started it and replied I'm just answering you.

juliet wrote:
So the question here is why do Yumes perceive Zeki as a friendship?

How is the Triangle presented to our eyes...?

Is first of all Yuuki in love for Zero?

The answer is No...yet she had always been by his side through the toughest time…

Spoiler:

She is even determined to aid him in every possible way

Spoiler:

She recalls the past being always there at his aid

Spoiler:

She gives him strength in a cheerful way

Spoiler:

She wants to offer herself to Shizuka in order to save him

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She encouranges him to take more blood of her

Spoiler:

And far more…
Her actions to save him make even Zero wonder

Spoiler:

And bend Zero’s resistances

Spoiler:

Does that equal love in a romantic view? We could say that, if there was not love in romantic view pictured as such;

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

So we understand that all actions are driven by Yuuki’s will to aid her childhood friend and save him from death. When it comes to romantic love…however…
Yuuki clearly states who she really loves (no room for doubt)

Spoiler:

She confesses to Zero her real intentions for helping him..

Spoiler:

And to Kaname her real love feelings…
So is the romantic love for Kaname contradicting her love (non romantic for Zero?)

Spoiler:

But that’s all the way she was acting with him even as kids (see scans above)…
Even after the revelation that she is a vampire and after Zero’s rejection with the gun pointed at the door, Yuuki still runs to her side trying to be his ally…
Her friendship feelings

Spoiler:

Her love feelings

Spoiler:

Her friendship feelings

Spoiler:

Her love feelings

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Here Yuuki says that she will hide that part of her that wants to scream and hide

Spoiler:

But according to the above statements (the current feelings that she is experiencing, these part can only be considered in the friend’s way)
One year after is that part that she keeps hidden that creates her problems? Yuuki still cares about Zero BUT she always did care…then this part (according to my HPOV) creates her greater problems than expected due to the separation, is not the crazy love, is not the suppressed love, its not the erotic feelings is the broken attachment with her past and also her human origins…
Love feelings for Kaname clearly stated again

Spoiler:

In these lines there is so much desire (that reminds me of where I’ve seen it elsewhere stated..ah here…

Spoiler:

In the previous chapter we just saw Yuuki saying that even if Kaname had not asked her, she still would not take anyone else’s blood, yet to due her great hunger she has to change that fact…
Where are the feelings when receiving Zero’s blood?
She says that she never intended to take his blood, yet her fangs grew (meaning for me that she is a fully matured vampire now)…
She looks content due to the reconciliation, she gives him courage like she always did and at the scans above. So there is certainly the feeling there that she wants to restore their relationship starting again from new (she is a vampire now and he must start trusting her again). But are again this scene capable to be compared or even replace the love Yume scenes where Yuuki expresses openly her passion and her desire for Kaname?
Or is it a rehearsal of what we are used to see…Yuuki aiding Zero, Zero supporting Yuuki, the old friendship recipe that candles again in contrast to the classic love Yume scenes that when they come (now they are missing thus Kaname is not here) are overshadowing Zeki in the meaning of romantic love, so we can eventually have the comparison of what is love and what is friendship?
Just some things to consider...

completely agree, and thanks for the scan references, they are helpful as a YUME I find all this true for me. Yuki wanting to start her relationship afresh with Zero means she wants it to be the same way as it was when they were friends, if she had realized she loved him after they left she should have wanted something else out of both of them, such as making Zero realize she loves him back, but not a start over. Yuki's not showing signs she wants to tell him anything, except the fact she wants it to be the same again.

@nina, maybe you have to wait until all the pages have loaded? I can see the scans over here..

I feel like because Zero and Yuuki have such a strong friendship, based on trust and understanding, there is always the potential for it to become something more.

It's alright, Sweet. I guess we both misunderstood each other. I feel the same way about MF that you do here, but one thing I like better here however is that people post frequently. MF can get pretty dead sometimes. Enough about other sites though, I answered to the question of this thread and I hope that'll do.

When a vampire desire someone else blood, they will the need to devour the other one. no matter how much they drink, they can have enough of it.

Yuuki about kaname:
The yuuki who regained her memories and "me" have always been one and the same.
The boundaries between the two "me" go melting into one more and more and I realised that I desired no one's blood but oniisama...and that my mind is filled with thoughts of him.

His neck... his pale beautiful neck...When I think of it I want to tear into it with my fangs...I want to bask deeply in the taste of his blood, in that flowing crimsom filled with his feelings melted in it.

"What are you saying? You want what? If you want you can eat all of him. Isn't that what you want?"
"If you don't devour what you desire you will be driven insane."
I am still so far, I can't even think of saying we are equal. But the vampire inside me doesn't care. This desire is so pure, it can't be hidden.

chibi yuuki:
When I think of him I feel so much love and so much sadness...It is a bad thing that the same feeling makes me want to latch onto his throat and devour his blood and even his life to taste his feelings in it?
"My" whole conscience is filled with this need that is soo completely, purely vampire... and yet "I" am nothing other than just you.

zero about yuuki:
Yuuki I...I desired only your blood, Yuuki...Yuuki i want it so much that is unbearable to the point that unless I drank from you until the very limits of your life, I wouldn't be satisfied...

From examples above we have zero thinking at yuuki that way; we have yuuki thinking at kaname the same way.
in this category rido can be added too: he wanted to devour juuri.

Yuuki drank zero's blood in the lst chapter, but her thoughts weren't deeper like in kaname's case. she said (based on the translation we have until now) she will take just a bit, enough for her to do her job as kuran, as pureblood.

@juliet: my bows for your post

In the beginning of the first arc, I thought indeed, about zeki as a one-sided love. Back then, I believed that yuuki felt just friendship. (Not sibling-thing. I have a brother, and there's a big diffrence between brother and guy friends: for example: If a friend tries to kiss you, you could just be surprised, or not pushing them away so you wouldn't hurt them. If it were brotherly , you'd push him away disgusted. So in the beginning, no sibling feelings from yuuki to me. I did believe in the friendship)

But as the chapters went on, I started to think about it, as Yuuki wanted to be friends, but sometimes just couldn't help herself for lightly wanting something more. This is not such a big deal, since it happens to a lot of people who later end up as just friends.

However, towards the ending of the first arcade, I believed in the love without realising it. Now I think she does realize but doesn't want to admit it completely. So to me, I see it as love. I won't go into detail about why, because those scenes are, as said before ambigues.

So about the latest chapters. One , it couldn't have been this really passionate thing yet, considering what they went trough together. It would be completely not plauseble to me. But I didn't find their bite 'business-like' either. Business-like to me would be:no pushing against a three, not biting the neck, keeping more distance, no sitting on top of each other, clearl agreements, no sentimental talking, no tie-pulling towards each other......well to me it was just not business-like. In my pov there's deffo an endge to it, just not wildy passionate (yet).

Hope this made any sense, since my english is not perfect and I was typing kinda fast here.

@loveiszero and howl4fun: I keep noticing I almost always agree with your statements. He again, It's no different. The things you guys mentioned, are amongst the things, that I also believe that they make Zeki a love-thing.

Kanamelover<3 wrote:I think it is friendship, I feel like this Manga will have a Yume ending

But, in my opinion I think the anime is very Zeki biased :/
So if they did make a 3rd season, it might have a Zeki end :/

true did anyone notice that the anime forshadowed something that just happed in the latest released chapter!
in chapter 46 of the manga zero sucked yuki's blood instead of what happend in the anime. in the anime yuki sucked zero's blood but that just happed for the first time in chapter 74! do you think its just a accident. personally i think the manga and the anime where supposed to have oppisit endings and thats probably why they havent made a season 3 yet!

Aya-Chan: Interesting analogy--may I put it in Zeki retrospect.

Yet, a tiny piece of the cheaper chocolate is more nutritious (blood sugar boost) & satisfyingly fulfilling to her palate. Her teeth naturally sink into the chocolate (Z's neck). She has a mouthgasm (it calms her). It's so mouthwateringly appetizing she can save piece for later (a bit of Z's blood fully sated her).

Yet, she gluttonously devours the expensive chocolate & her dissatisfied sweet tooth remains. She's deceived by the bbrand-name wrapping, but it has an artificial taste effect. I'd switch brands, too.

Anyway, yes, Zeki has romantic potential. The bite communicated a lot: Y willingly & knowingly broke the 'take only my blood' agreement with her fiancé. That agreement adjoined to their commitment to each other. And she wasn't willing to suffer for K's sake. She didn't reject Z's offer although she should have. There's no guilt, although the agreement was originally created because of her Z yearning. She had plenty of alternatives outside of Z's offer--BTs or a NC V--but she chose Z.

That's a broken promise. K told Y in 52 that she'd truly loved him because she chose him/his blood; hence, she'd suffer since she'd have to be inactive toward Z, but her 74 actions completely voided 52, IMO. She suppressed her love & sedated her desire for Z's blood, which drove her into delirium (reference C. 50, 51, 52, etc) & starvation.

I think Zeki romance is gradual: transitional from platonic to romantic. Indicative is the growth of Y's feelings for Z during their separation. Y didn't appreciate Z when he was accessibly close. She took their bond for granted because she was too fixated on someone she didn't know: K. However, losing that [Z] bond forced Y to realize how crucially necessary it was to her.

When she lost Z she lost a part of herself, because Z's a bond/attachment Y created herself. It wasn't manipulated, created, or predestined like so may other aspects of her life. That's why it's difficult for her to unbound herself from him. That's why it was so difficult for her to function, despite getting everything she desired: K, become a V, love/life with K. When she abandoned Z, she abandoned her happiness because Z's her happiness. She smiles for him. She gets involved because of him. She defines her goals by him.

That's why she's hellbent determined to repair & rebuild her relationship with him. No matter how much she loves K, she'll never break her bond to Z. Even when her bond with Z was enmity, she clung to it.

Simple things like talking & touching him (Z) are important. His well-being is important to her. Very important relationship indicators. She has never been that intimately attentive & or determined with K, IMO.

In the 1st arc, both males had potential. Y chose K, & their romance proved to be regressive. However, Zeki's romantic prospects seem more progressive, IMO.

Since this forum seems heavily Yume, I expect a - reputation for my contrary opinions. LOL.

Yay! Finally I saw the scans …

Juliet great comparison! … the real statements and the real depictions speaks for itself … the comparison is smashing!

So I don’t have any need to voice my words … the statements doing it louder than me…

1. Even if I’m betrayed It’s okay (chap.23)

2. Kaname-sama I love you … I love you … You are the beginning of my world and everything in that world … (chap.26)

3. I will do anything if it’s for Kaname-sama … those words that I uttered were not lies … because that is my wish… (chap.26)

4. Kaname: Do you want to become a vampire Yuuki, live for eternity by my side?
Yuuki: My wish is … YES … words that I’ve always been wishing to hear … (chap.26)

5. If it’s him … even if he betrays me my feelings for him would never change … I’ve liked Kaname-senpai the most since 10 years ago … I’ve always liked him … whenever I think of that ΜΑΝ my mind will whirl full with thoughts of him so much that I could lose myself … (<<< she’s saying these words TO ZERO!!!!)

Whether he is a vampire or not it doesn’t actually matter … No matter how grim a situation Kaname-senpai is in … he always puts me before anything else! He is that kind of person … (chap. 32)

6. How could I hate you (for Kaname) … That’s absolutely not possible … Whether is from the past or right now I’ve always liked you most! … I could never find a reason to hate Kaname-sama … even if Kaname was like the vampire who wanted to bite me … even if they are both vampires (<< in front of ZERO again) (chap.32)

7. Is it really ok for me to LOVE YOU? (chap. 33)

8. I want it … I only want this man’s blood … (chap. 36)

9. There must be something wrong with me. Because for all this time I’VE BEEN IN LOVE with my brother. (chap. 36)

10. This gentle shadow … I just want to be captured by him (chap. 41)

11. My heart skipped a little bit … just from seeing his eyes when he turned to talk with me (chap. 49)

12. I feel that just having you hold my hand like this … is enough to make me happy … (chap. 49)

13. Even if you’re tainted … I don’t mind … Please taint me too oniisama … I love your hands … tainted or not … and if you’re to be branded as a sinful and tainted vampire then … then I want to fall down with you to the farthest depths! (chap.49)

14. When I think of him I feel so much love and such sadness … is it a bad thing that the same feeling makes me want to latch into his throat and devour his blood and even his life to taste his feelings in it? … My WHOLE conscience is filled with this need … (chap. 51)

( The same desire ^^^^ had expressed also Zero with his farewell to Yuuki …
“ I want only your blood … so much that is unbearable, to the point that unless I drank from you until the very limits of your life I wouldn’t be satisfied!”)
So except if his enormous desire to devour her to the very limits of her life isn’t a declaration of his romantic love cuz he can’t be satisfied with a bit of her blood … hm? …)

15. His neck … his beautiful pale neck … when I think of it I want to tear into it with my fangs … I want to bask deeply in the taste of his blood, in that flowing crimson filled, with his feelings melted in it … those are without a doubt my feelings … (chap. 51)

16. I want to be by your side FOREVER … (chap. 51)

17. Oniisama I feel the same as you … I would welcome anything you felt like doing me … My oniisama … so strong and so beautiful … How is it possible that you are MINE? (chap. 52)

18. Suddenly I was told that EVERYTHING I TRULY WANTED was always MINE from the start …
What are you saying? You want what? If you want you can eat ALL OF HIM. Isn’t that what YOU WANT? If you don’t devour what you desire you’ll be driven insane. I’m still so far, I can’t even think of saying we’re equal. But the vampire inside of me doesn’t care … THIS DESIRE IS SO PURE IT CAN’T BE HIDDEN…
He returned Artemis … I was allowed to see a glimpse of the past … HE IS TELLING ME THAT I CAN CHANGE … (CHAP.66) >>> viz after the one chunk blah blah … she’s expressing the same gluttonous desire for Kaname ofc…

19. FINALLY I faced him as an EQUAL … and now we can start again from here (chap. 67)

20. There is no way we can be separate like this … I can’t stand this … Let me go … He said that we’ll go through a long journey together… and after I thought I would be moving forward from now on with him… And this time I want him to engrave the time we have been spending together in his memories (chap. 68)

21. Restrained by the hunters’ … but my heart is bound far away … (chap. 69)

22. After this I will follow you Kaname … (chap.69)

23. My reason for holding the fort is … (chap. 70)

To be continued …

nina wrote:Yay! Finally I saw the scans …

Juliet great comparison! … the real statements and the real depictions speaks for itself … the comparison is smashing!

So I don’t have any need to voice my words … the statements doing it louder than me…

1. Even if I’m betrayed It’s okay (chap.23)

2. Kaname-sama I love you … I love you … You are the beginning of my world and everything in that world … (chap.26)

3. I will do anything if it’s for Kaname-sama … those words that I uttered were not lies … because that is my wish… (chap.26)

4. Kaname: Do you want to become a vampire Yuuki, live for eternity by my side?
Yuuki: My wish is … YES … words that I’ve always been wishing to hear … (chap.26)

5. If it’s him … even if he betrays me my feelings for him would never change … I’ve liked Kaname-senpai the most since 10 years ago … I’ve always liked him … whenever I think of that ΜΑΝ my mind will whirl full with thoughts of him so much that I could lose myself … (<<< she’s saying these words TO ZERO!!!!)

Whether he is a vampire or not it doesn’t actually matter … No matter how grim a situation Kaname-senpai is in … he always puts me before anything else! He is that kind of person … (chap. 32)

6. How could I hate you (for Kaname) … That’s absolutely not possible … Whether is from the past or right now I’ve always liked you most! … I could never find a reason to hate Kaname-sama … even if Kaname was like the vampire who wanted to bite me … even if they are both vampires (<< in front of ZERO again) (chap.32)

7. Is it really ok for me to LOVE YOU? (chap. 33)

8. I want it … I only want this man’s blood … (chap. 36)

9. There must be something wrong with me. Because for all this time I’VE BEEN IN LOVE with my brother. (chap. 36)

10. This gentle shadow … I just want to be captured by him (chap. 41)

11. My heart skipped a little bit … just from seeing his eyes when he turned to talk with me (chap. 49)

12. I feel that just having you hold my hand like this … is enough to make me happy … (chap. 49)

13. Even if you’re tainted … I don’t mind … Please taint me too oniisama … I love your hands … tainted or not … and if you’re to be branded as a sinful and tainted vampire then … then I want to fall down with you to the farthest depths! (chap.49)

14. When I think of him I feel so much love and such sadness … is it a bad thing that the same feeling makes me want to latch into his throat and devour his blood and even his life to taste his feelings in it? … My WHOLE conscience is filled with this need … (chap. 51)

( The same desire ^^^^ had expressed also Zero with his farewell to Yuuki …
“ I want only your blood … so much that is unbearable, to the point that unless I drank from you until the very limits of your life I wouldn’t be satisfied!”)
So except if his enormous desire to devour her to the very limits of her life isn’t a declaration of his romantic love cuz he can’t be satisfied with a bit of her blood … hm? …)

15. His neck … his beautiful pale neck … when I think of it I want to tear into it with my fangs … I want to bask deeply in the taste of his blood, in that flowing crimson filled, with his feelings melted in it … those are without a doubt my feelings … (chap. 51)

16. I want to be by your side FOREVER … (chap. 51)

17. Oniisama I feel the same as you … I would welcome anything you felt like doing me … My oniisama … so strong and so beautiful … How is it possible that you are MINE? (chap. 52)

18. Suddenly I was told that EVERYTHING I TRULY WANTED was always MINE from the start …
What are you saying? You want what? If you want you can eat ALL OF HIM. Isn’t that what YOU WANT? If you don’t devour what you desire you’ll be driven insane. I’m still so far, I can’t even think of saying we’re equal. But the vampire inside of me doesn’t care … THIS DESIRE IS SO PURE IT CAN’T BE HIDDEN…
He returned Artemis … I was allowed to see a glimpse of the past … HE IS TELLING ME THAT I CAN CHANGE … (CHAP.66) >>> viz after the one chunk blah blah … she’s expressing the same gluttonous desire for Kaname ofc…

19. FINALLY I faced him as an EQUAL … and now we can start again from here (chap. 67)

20. There is no way we can be separate like this … I can’t stand this … Let me go … He said that we’ll go through a long journey together… and after I thought I would be moving forward from now on with him… And this time I want him to engrave the time we have been spending together in his memories (chap. 68)

21. Restrained by the hunters’ … but my heart is bound far away … (chap. 69)

22. After this I will follow you Kaname … (chap.69)

23. My reason for holding the fort is … (chap. 70)

To be continued …

thank you Nina and Aya also...about the remarks and beautiful quotes that you also put here for us to read.

What I wanted to point out with all these scans was the fact that Yuuki supported and helped Zero out of true friendship (at the first arc) while she was in love with Kaname. The romantic love is pictured clear, so the one side of the triangle leaves no space for doubt> where is doubt rooted- In Zero and Yuuki's friendship. But her behavior and her attitude towards Zero does not change and neither develops in all these chapters of the first arc into something far more concrete and obvious as her feelings for Kaname.

Now in chapter 74, she still acts no differently than before, she always cared and she still cares about their relationship. So does that mean that she is experiencing "in love" emotions? But after all these "emotions" that the Zeki side is supposed to have attributed to Yuuki's psychology, like "suppressed love feelings" shouldnt there the reaction be far more agitated? the pleasure far more evident? (a feeling of wanting to devour him whole?)

-Also another two points here; As Aya said the in love vampires do have that "I can't have enough" trait...I think that Hino there resemblences the humans ordinary reaction when in love; no matter how much they get from their love mate, it never seems to be enough; mere reality.

-The friendship element that I hear repeating; apparently two people in love are friends anyway if they are into a relationship... but when a guy is in love with a girl and the girl states "I want us to be friends"...that's a heartbreak statement, not a good one.

Normally under these conditions you do not wish to be friends, thus Yume totally misses the "friends" element.

Of course friendship can be the start but the problem is when seen as the objective thus it is the end and it leads nowhere else.

Apparently Hino can do whatever she wishes with the script and she can develop Zeki if she wishes but she nulled their relationship with the "enemies" part, it moved them backwards and now friendship is the objective while that was already a fact during the first arc. In other words it takes too long for love feelings to develop and it fails to persuade according to my POV.

Aya-Chan: Interesting analogy--may I put it in Zeki retrospect.

Yet, a tiny piece of the cheaper chocolate is more nutritious (blood sugar boost) & satisfyingly fulfilling to her palate. Her teeth naturally sink into the chocolate (Z's neck). She has a mouthgasm (it calms her). It's so mouthwateringly appetizing she can save piece for later (a bit of Z's blood fully sated her).

Yet, she gluttonously devours the expensive chocolate & her dissatisfied sweet tooth remains. She's deceived by the bbrand-name wrapping, but it has an artificial taste effect. I'd switch brands, too.

Some clarifications:
100gr and 30 gr represent the quantity of blood yuuki drank from kaname and zero. and expensive/cheaper was related to the lack of money.

Normaly when you eat chocolate - the same quantity, different brands - the effects for your organism is the same, your blood sugar will rise. Most of chocolate have the same ingredients.
But good brands (kaname)are more healthy because don't contain "food additives": kaname's blood is pure, it doesn't have traces of human blood.

But let me explain differently.

When you eat something, and you like it, your taste buds sent signals to your brain, your brain process the information and asked for more, because you like it.
When you eat something and you don't like it, your taste buds sent signals to your brain, your brain process the information and "demand" you to stop, because you don't like it.
Human body is amazing you know.

In yuuki's case: she taste kaname's blood. her taste buds sent signals to her brain; information was processed and asked for more because his blood is tasty. she can't have enough of it, she want more and more.
I will not switch brands. but you can do it

@juliet: agree with you. How you showed in your scans yuuki's feelings for kaname are deeper than the ones she has for zero.
No matter how much a reader can search in vk and bring evidence of yuki's attachement to zero, they can't be compared with the ones which show yuuki's attachement for kaname.

I can't have enough - we met it countless time in vk: rido's case, zero's case when he spoke about yuuki, yuuki's case when she spoke about kaname. This trait isn't just for decoration.

aya-chan wrote:I can't have enough - we met it countless time in vk: rido's case, zero's case when he spoke about yuuki, yuuki's case when she spoke about kaname. This trait isn't just for decoration.

There's always one thing that stands out to me concerning this. There is a hierarchy in the desire of blood as well. Each of these cases of "I can't have enough" is in reference to a pureblood. We don't hear anything about Kain feeling this way toward Ruka. I think it's the chapter at the ball when it's said that Purebloods are desired even more than the blood of a vampire's loved one.



In order of desire

Pureblood

Loved One

Human Child



So let's just hypothetically say that Yuuki is genuinely in love with Zero, he's the one that she is emotionally attached to, relies on and discusses her worries and concerns with.



Who's blood would she desire most? This is a HUGE loophole that can negate SO much of the Yuuki/Kaname dynamic.

sari15 wrote:

aya-chan wrote:I can't have enough - we met it countless time in vk: rido's case, zero's case when he spoke about yuuki, yuuki's case when she spoke about kaname. This trait isn't just for decoration.

There's always one thing that stands out to me concerning this. There is a hierarchy in the desire of blood as well. Each of these cases of "I can't have enough" is in reference to a pureblood. We don't hear anything about Kain feeling this way toward Ruka. I think it's the chapter at the ball when it's said that Purebloods are desired even more than the blood of a vampire's loved one.



In order of desire

Pureblood

Loved One

Human Child



So let's just hypothetically say that Yuuki is genuinely in love with Zero, he's the one that she is emotionally attached to, relies on and discusses her worries and concerns with.



Who's blood would she desire most? This is a HUGE loophole that can negate SO much of the Yuuki/Kaname dynamic.

The reference is about nobles though, not about purebloods (ooops window exit)...

juliet wrote:-The friendship element that I hear repeating; apparently two people in love are friends anyway if they are into a relationship... but when a guy is in love with a girl and the girl states "I want us to be friends"...that's a heartbreak statement, not a good one.

Apparently Hino can do whatever she wishes with the script and she can develop Zeki if she wishes but she nulled their relationship with the "enemies" part, it moved them backwards and now friendship is the objective while that was already a fact during the first arc. In other words it takes too long for love feelings to develop and it fails to persuade according to my POV.

yes ZEKI chances was cut off when they parted as friends, even when Zero confessed his feelings, Yuki says she can't return it. I think Zero knew it too. Then Yuki started living with Kaname and had intimate moments with him...they were just going too far when ZEKi was at the rock bottom.

aya-chan wrote:
No matter how much a reader can search in vk and bring evidence of yuki's attachement to zero, they can't be compared with the ones which show yuuki's attachement for kaname.

I can't have enough - we met it countless time in vk: rido's case, zero's case when he spoke about yuuki, yuuki's case when she spoke about kaname. This trait isn't just for decoration.

agreed, these are facts that have been repeated all over, even when she was human or pureblood and was given form when she became a vampire. Her desire to devour him was so much that her inner self says if she doesn't it will drive her mad.. her love for him so great so as to be materialized in possessing him as a whole

sari15 wrote:Who's blood would she desire most? This is a HUGE loophole that can negate SO much of the Yuuki/Kaname dynamic.

I don't see what's so negating about this. It also actually puts Zero in the
same pit as Yuki and Kaname, even more so, his case is the real one instead of Kaname and Yuki. He is level D vampire and Yuki is a pureblood, following your loophole, he will desire the blood higher in the hierarchy than him, so he desires Yuki's blood because of her level, not out of love.

Meanwhile Yuki doesn't even to have reason to love only Kaname's blood because of the hierarchy as she already wants to devour and consume him despite being a pureblood herself.. so they are more in line with feelings of intense love than obligatory feelings. She also already loved him even before when she was a human.

sweetsolace wrote:I don't see what's so negating about this. It also actually puts Zero in the
same pit as Yuki and Kaname, even more so, his case is the real one instead of Kaname and Yuki. He is level D vampire and Yuki is a pureblood, following your loophole, he will desire the blood higher in the hierarchy than him, so he desires Yuki's blood because of her level, not out of love.

Actually, it likely wouldn't put Zero there as long as it is shown that Yuuki's blood does in fact sate Zero post her transformation. Zero said those words prior to drinking from her. We never saw if her blood did calm him after he was stablized by both Kaname and Ichiru, since there was the timeskip. If this is the case, 1. He desires her blood that much simply because he's a vampire and she's a pureblood. 2. Her blood would sate him because he loves her.

Meanwhile Yuki doesn't even to have reason to love only Kaname's blood because of the hierarchy as she already wants to devour and consume him despite being a pureblood herself.. so they are more in line with feelings of intense love than obligatory feelings. She also already loved him even before when she was a human.

No, it's more in line with lust than love. The issue is two fold. Yuuki, for it to be love under this premise must 1. Desire Kaname as a pureblood and 2. Be sated by his blood because he's her loved one. Only one of these is completely being met in canon.



Zero can't meet #1 to Yuuki because he's not a pureblood and #2 is still the whole issue of the LT. Hence, with this theory it's totally possible for Yuuki to desire to devour Kaname and still be in love with Zero. It's a theory that depends entirely on the whole issue of being sated by the blood of your loved one.



As far as we've seen so far, there is not any proof that ANY of them are sated by drinking from the other. Kaname is still drinking tablets, Yuuki wasn't entirely sated by Kaname and the prognosis on Zero is still out, and who knows about how Zero handled things after drinking from her that last chapter back at the school before she left with Kaname.

sari15 wrote:
Actually, it likely wouldn't put Zero there as long as it is shown that Yuuki's blood does in fact sate Zero post her transformation. Zero said those words prior to drinking from her. We never saw if her blood did calm him after he was stablized by both Kaname and Ichiru, since there was the timeskip. If this is the case, 1. He desires her blood that much simply because he's a vampire and she's a pureblood. 2. Her blood would sate him because he loves her.

but surely it does also apply to Zero if it applies to Kaname and Yuki. As well as the rest. I thought it was not about satisfaction, but about inclination to desiring WHOSE blood based on hierarchy. Zero is also under this hierarchy since he's a vampire, so following your loophole he is also inclined to desire those who is above him and that is Yuki, hence his attaraction to her is more inclined rather than love, wouldn't it?

No, it's more in line with lust than love. The issue is two fold. Yuuki, for it to be love under this premise must 1. Desire Kaname as a pureblood and 2. Be sated by his blood because he's her loved one. Only one of these is completely being met in canon.

that satisfaction issue is actually two fold and contradicting in itself.
Saying Yuki can't be satisfied without the blood of her loved one is also true for Kaname's case, he is Yuki's loved one, Yuki also says she wants to devour him so much that she can't get enough of him, in short she's also unsatisfied in a sense. The same with Zero when he said, he cant be satisfied with Yuki's blood, he wants it all until he drains her dry. In a sense their love puts them at such dissatisfaction once they have tasted their blood.
So saying you can only be satisfied with the blood of a love one actually means the blood of a loved one can CALM the thirst, rather than an indication of who's blood will she be satisfied or she loves more.
This was true when Zero's blood calmed Yuki's thirst in an instant, and this was also true when Kaname's blood calmed Yuki's thirst.

And the dissatisfaction that the vampire feels is when they love someone so much they want to take every drop of blood and even flesh. Its actually a metaphor to emphasize the intensity of the feelings of a vampire in love based on the examples previously posted. In this sense this dissatisfaction stems from the desire to drink more and more... rather than just thirst or lust which can be calmed by a loved one.

EDIT
in short, one can have many loved ones, but she can only have one whom she's in love with.
One can have many loved ones to satisfy the thirst has been proven true in many cases: Shiki's mother drinking blood from Senri, a mother asking her daughter to take blood from her since her boyfriend was not there in chapter 63, and yuki desiring Yori's blood as her bestfriend.

in short the hierarchy of needs actually goes the same similar with what aya mentioned about chocolates:
person they are in loved with or madly in love with - premium chocolate, made of the finest ingredients, you can eat it even if you're not hungry and never get sick of eating it... xD it is the food and necessity for all and every occasion
loved one (family, friends) - commercial chocolate bar you can buy at the market, its food to sate thirst
blood tablets - leftover cocoa beans, bitter and ill tasting. better than nothing

/

As far as we've seen so far, there is not any proof that ANY of them are sated by drinking from the other. Kaname is still drinking tablets, Yuuki wasn't entirely sated by Kaname and the prognosis on Zero is still out, and who knows about how Zero handled things after drinking from her that last chapter back at the school before she left with Kaname.

likewise there's no proof saying they are not satisfied when they take that blood. maybe they are even satisfied.

The blood of a love one can satisfy in other words calm the thirst, but the blood of the vampire she's in love with can never satisfy in other words she can never have enough of it, I think the difference is clear.

about yuki saying "that's right thats why I can never be satisfied because part of my heart is attached to him" but again, where's the big BOOM there? when she bit him she saw his memories and she was fully sated even taking a little of his blood. She doesn't say "Oh joy my heart is complete and now I realize it belongs to Zero", none of that right, its not even supported by another evidence. Even if she does realize that Zero "satisfied her heart" her how will she or anyone know the difference? the "satisfaction" meant her heart being whole or her spoiled nature was now sated? nothing to tell at all.

and this theory VS all the other solid evidences posted against it is just.. too big to counter. there must be something more solid to this

One thing I'd like to add is that yume and zeki are two very different types of relationships. You may think I'm stating the obvious, but let me explain what I mean. Yume is the obvious, emphasized, clear, early, canon etc. type of love while zeki is the slow, transitioned, friendship starting/emphasized, ambiguis type of love. Both types are just as common and equally used in any sort of tv or comic/anime and manga series etc. Point is, whether it's the early, romantic relationships that everyone feels right away or soon just by looking at them (couples like Jack/Rose (Titanic), Robin Hood/Marion, Romeo/Juliet) or the slow, starting as strictly platonic relationships (Kyo/Tohru (Furuba), Rory/Jess (Gilmore Girls), Hermione/Ron (HP), both of these are considered their own categories within the different "types", or more accurately; how the love is created/developed, so on. VK just happened to include them both in one story. The point about this is that you can't expect one to be like the other. Much less deem them as "loveless" if they're not. Which seems to play a big part in why yumes view zeki as so, because "they haven't had any love declarations, there's no obvious love there, they use too much time figuring out their feelings" etc.


Point is, if you see zeki as platonic, that's fine, if you don't see it you don't see it. But that viewpoint should come after evaluating them from a neutral view, looking at their own relationship in whole, and not by comparing them to yume. By that approach I have to say you're missing out a lot.

Howl4fun wrote:One thing I'd like to add is that yume and zeki are two very different types of relationships. You may think I'm stating the obvious, but let me explain what I mean. Yume is the obvious, emphasized, clear, early, canon etc. type of love while zeki is the slow, transitioned, friendship starting/emphasized, ambiguis type of love. Both types are just as common and equally used in any sort of tv or comic/anime and manga series etc. Point is, whether it's the early, romantic relationships that everyone feels right away or soon just by looking at them (couples like Jack/Rose (Titanic), Robin Hood/Marion, Romeo/Juliet) or the slow, starting as strictly platonic relationships (Kyo/Tohru (Furuba), Rory/Jess (Gilmore Girls), Hermione/Ron (HP), both of these are considered their own categories within the different "types", or more accurately; how the love is created/developed, so on. VK just happened to include them both in one story. The point about this is that you can't expect one to be like the other. Much less deem them as "loveless" if they're not. Which seems to play a big part in why yumes view zeki as so, because "they haven't had any love declarations, there's no obvious love there, they use too much time figuring out their feelings" etc.


Point is, if you see zeki as platonic, that's fine, if you don't see it you don't see it. But that viewpoint should come after evaluating them from a neutral view, looking at their own relationship in whole, and not by comparing them to yume. By that approach I have to say you're missing out a lot.

This.

The point of starting afresh is just that, building a relationship from scratch, as described by the panel of their first encounter 5 years ago. Which direction they take is too early to tell. After all, whatever feelings they have, they are carefully hidden and repressed.

We still have 20-30+ chapters left, I'm interested in seeing how Hino develops this relationship romantically, if she chooses to do so, as it is a much more challenging task to deliver it successfully.

Howl4fun wrote:One thing I'd like to add is that yume and zeki are two very different types of relationships. You may think I'm stating the obvious, but let me explain what I mean. Yume is the obvious, emphasized, clear, early, canon etc. type of love while zeki is the slow, transitioned, friendship starting/emphasized, ambiguis type of love. Both types are just as common and equally used in any sort of tv or comic/anime and manga series etc. Point is, whether it's the early, romantic relationships that everyone feels right away or soon just by looking at them (couples like Jack/Rose (Titanic), Robin Hood/Marion, Romeo/Juliet) or the slow, starting as strictly platonic relationships (Kyo/Tohru (Furuba), Rory/Jess (Gilmore Girls), Hermione/Ron (HP), both of these are considered their own categories within the different "types", or more accurately; how the love is created/developed, so on. VK just happened to include them both in one story. The point about this is that you can't expect one to be like the other. Much less deem them as "loveless" if they're not. Which seems to play a big part in why yumes view zeki as so, because "they haven't had any love declarations, there's no obvious love there, they use too much time figuring out their feelings" etc.

Point is, if you see zeki as platonic, that's fine, if you don't see it you don't see it. But that viewpoint should come after evaluating them from a neutral view, looking at their own relationship in whole, and not by comparing them to yume. By that approach I have to say you're missing out a lot.

the point is if one saw ZEKI is about friendship or its about love in the first place. If you saw love strongly you will continue to hope it still exists or will exist despite evidences. This interpretation can speak for itself even from an outsiders viewpoint there's no need for bias.
the problem with those saying its about love is there's no solid proof of it being about love, Yuki's actions are vague and utterly troll-ish but that's where the comparisons fall in: what is love in VK? And there we compare YUME to ZEKI, YUME who's so full of obvious love in contrast to the ambiguous ZEKI.
Juliet had made the comparison between love feelings and friendship feelings and I think its good way to show how ZEKI fits the friendship category.
I think the idea behind ZEKI is its about friends who had disputes over each other, complicated by the guy confessing his love and the other wanting them to be friends despite that. Now Yuki's trying to mend their relationship back and be the way they are before, maybe if they interact more there's a chance it will spring back to love feelings, but I still don't see this happening with Zero's issues still present with him, and there's the fact it will take a long time for it to happen with the way things are going. I would say its not impossible, but its not logical either.

the point is if one saw ZEKI is about friendship or its about love in the first place. If you saw love strongly you will continue to hope it still exists or will exist despite evidences. This interpretation can speak for itself even from an outsiders viewpoint there's no need for bias.
the problem with those saying its about love is there's no solid proof of it being about love, Yuki's actions are vague and utterly troll-ish but that's where the comparisons fall in: what is love in VK? And there we compare YUME to ZEKI, YUME who's so full of obvious love in contrast to the ambiguous ZEKI.
Juliet had made the comparison between love feelings and friendship feelings and I think its good way to show how ZEKI fits the friendship category.
I think the idea behind ZEKI is its about friends who had disputes over each other, complicated by the guy confessing his love and the other wanting them to be friends despite that. Now Yuki's trying to mend their relationship back and be the way they are before, maybe if they interact more there's a chance it will spring back to love feelings, but I still don't see this happening with Zero's issues still present with him, and there's the fact it will take a long time for it to happen with the way things are going. I would say its not impossible, but its not logical either.

Funny you should reply just when I returned.



Um, what you mentioned was pretty much my point. By comparing the two couples you end up with the wrong angle in how zeki is friendship "because they never showed the kind of obvious love that yume did". And... there are no "evidences" of her feelings for Zero being platonic, if there were, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Maybe you think the "evidence" was that she only drank a little of his blood, and, you could be right, but this is way too early to say. There's still the question as to how she'll keep react to Maria/Zero, how will Zero's next bite play out, (with Yuuki or Maria, if with Maria, how will Yuuki react?) and why didn't she taste any of his feelings/see his memories properly? She has to sometime. I still say that Maria is going to be zeki's driving point right now, so when she should start hugging, clinging to, offer blood and confessing etc. to Zero in front of Yuuki, and she's not bothered with it at all (you know, since she only wants him as a friend), then we'll talk about her feelings being platonic. IMO.


And as of zeki not being "logic", I recall after 73 came how some of you said "it doesn't make sense", "I feel like I missed something/I feel like I missed a VOLUME" etc. so it already happened. You've been either ignoring zeki or always comparing them to yume, so when something canonly hinting of love/lust between them (some of) you won't get it, per say the "logic" you're talking about. I know you want to say it was false alarm, LOL, but again it's too early to say another "alarm" won't come.


So, not saying you're wrong to not expect mutual love between them, but it not "making much sense" is based on how you've been reading this story. To you it doesn't make sense, to us it makes alot of sense. Again, there's no saying yet who's right or wrong, that's what we're all waiting for to know in canon :p

Howl4fun wrote:


And as of zeki not being "logic", I recall after 73 came how some of you said "it doesn't make sense", "I feel like I missed something/I feel like I missed a VOLUME" etc. so it already happened. You've been either ignoring zeki or always comparing them to yume, so when something canonly hinting of love/lust between them (some of) you won't get it, per say the "logic" you're talking about. I know you want to say it was false alarm, LOL, but again it's too early to say another "alarm" won't come. Not saying you're wrong to not expect mutual love between them, but it not "making much sense" is based on how you've been reading this story. To you it doesn't make sense, to us it makes alot of sense. Again, there's no saying yet who's right or wrong, that's what we're all waiting for to know in canon :p

This is about behavior, Zero makes a sudden twist at his stance, it is not about feelings. This "biting" was not conveying the meaning of mutual love anyway...that was not the way it was conveyed. So why is it making sense to you? (honestly you were not surprised? or did not ask yourself "what changes Zero's attitude?"

This is about behavior, Zero makes a sudden twist at his stance, it is not about feelings. This "biting" was not conveying the meaning of mutual love anyway...that was not the way it was conveyed. So why is it making sense to you? (honestly you were not surprised? or did not ask yourself "what changes Zero's attitude?"

Hmm, nope. Not really XD I was surprised that he offered his blood just like that, but not that he decided to openly help her in general. He'd been discreetly supporting her all along when she came to the HA, so it wasn't a "sudden twist". I was more surprised at this chapter in how he was so submissive to the point he just let her push and pin him down against a tree and looking so indifferent when she bit him. Only afterwards did he get a look on his face as if he was high, lol XD


Even if that's what you meant by it not making sense, its not much difference. So none of you noticed Zero's support of her because it wasn't "obvious"? >.>




I won't be responding in some hours from now however. Have to head off to work.

Howl4fun wrote:

This is about behavior, Zero makes a sudden twist at his stance, it is not about feelings. This "biting" was not conveying the meaning of mutual love anyway...that was not the way it was conveyed. So why is it making sense to you? (honestly you were not surprised? or did not ask yourself "what changes Zero's attitude?"

Hmm, nope. Not really XD I was surprised that he offered his blood just like that, but not that he decided to openly help her in general. He'd been discreetly supporting her all along when she came to the HA, so it wasn't a "sudden twist". I was more surprised at this chapter in how he was so submissive to the point he just let her push and pin him down against a tree and looking so indifferent when she bit him. Only afterwards did he get a look on his face as if he was high, lol XD

So you were suprised as well by his attitude. Then why are you just throwing the ball just to us? Apparently Zero's offer here contradicted his overall attitude as we knew it and more than this it was quite sudden, it did not follow a great failure from Yuki's part or did not preceed a real fighting battle (I say as example) that would really demand from Yuuki's part a great power to last any challenges. Meaning with that when you say at your POV above that we are not seen Zeki's romance there...

And as of zeki not being "logic", I recall after 73 came how some of you said "it doesn't make sense", "I feel like I missed something/I feel like I missed a VOLUME" etc. so it already happened. You've been either ignoring zeki or always comparing them to yume, so when something canonly hinting of love/lust between them (some of) you won't get it, per say the "logic" you're talking about. I know you want to say it was false alarm, LOL, but again it's too early to say another "alarm" won't come.
So, not saying you're wrong to not expect mutual love between them, but it not "making much sense" is based on how you've been reading this story.

the certain arguement that you are using from chapter 73 about how we judge it Zeki not making sense should not be included as this had nothing to do with how we perceive love, it was about Zero's sole and stable attitude that until now left no space for such a thing to happen; its not about seeing or not seeing the feelings there/is about certain attitude. I hope I am making sense here, LOL.

Howl4fun wrote:
Um, what you mentioned was pretty much my point. By comparing the two couples you end up with the wrong angle in how zeki is friendship "because they never showed the kind of obvious love that yume did".

by using comparisons inside the story it actually stays in context with how LOVE is portrayed inside the story rather than outside of it by using the context that already exists and that is in YUME, hence makes it more credible because its based inside.
The comparisons made here were even based on Yuki, who is the object in question here, not Jack or Rose, Romeo and Juliet etc., she's the one showing love and friendship and HOW she shows it. So do you mean to say that Yuki shows different expressions for love in Zero or Kaname? Then she is just two timing and it doesn't fit what she wanted out of her relationship with Zero which was a start over, not romance.
If you compare VK's pairing with one of disney's works for example, that's actually you making your opinion about it, that doesn't necessarily make it fact because its based outside and they have different authors.

Howl4fun wrote:And... there are no "evidences" of her feelings for Zero being platonic, if there were, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

there is and as I mentioned Juliet laid it out in detail in this thread, the difference with love and friendship feelings as acted by Yuki.

Howl4fun wrote:Maybe you think the "evidence" was that she only drank a little of his blood, and, you could be right, but this is way too early to say.

then WHEN? When will she realize that moment you say exists? The bite was supposed to be the key to realizing this, I remember how many made so much drama over it being the indicative moment, and now you're saying its too early because nothing happened?

Howl4fun wrote:There's still the question as to how she'll keep react to Maria/Zero, how will Zero's next bite play out, (with Yuuki or Maria, if with Maria, how will Yuuki react?) and why didn't she taste any of his feelings/see his memories properly?

IF any of that happens. IMO its just repetitive.

Howl4fun wrote:She has to sometime. I still say that Maria is going to be zeki's driving point right now, so when she should start hugging, clinging to, offer blood and confessing etc. to Zero in front of Yuuki, and she's not bothered with it at all (you know, since she only wants him as a friend), then we'll talk about her feelings being platonic. IMO.

zekis are actually free to hope for more but for those who lean more to friendship knows how these all looks like...

Howl4fun wrote:And as of zeki not being "logic", I recall after 73 came how some of you said "it doesn't make sense", "I feel like I missed something/I feel like I missed a VOLUME" etc. so it already happened. You've been either ignoring zeki or always comparing them to yume, so when something canonly hinting of love/lust between them (some of) you won't get it, per say the "logic" you're talking about. I know you want to say it was false alarm, LOL, but again it's too early to say another "alarm" won't come.
So, not saying you're wrong to not expect mutual love between them, but it not "making much sense" is based on how you've been reading this story. To you it doesn't make sense, to us it makes alot of sense. Again, there's no saying yet who's right or wrong, that's what we're all waiting for to know in canon :p

I go for juliet's answer here:

juliet wrote:the certain arguement that you are using from chapter 73 about how we judge it Zeki not making sense should not be included as this had nothing to do with how we perceive love, it was about Zero's sole and stable attitude that until now left no space for such a thing to happen; its not about seeing or not seeing the feelings there/is about certain attitude.

in my opinion it doesn't make sense you're saying love exists when for me I'm seeing another thing.
in the manga its also shown differently, Zero's attitude in itself prevents love from happening from the beginning, ever since they parted in chapter 49 he has prevented it from happening, so there yuki is making the effort to return the way it was before, and what was the way they were before? they were friends in the first arc right?

sweetsolace wrote:

Howl4fun wrote:And... there are no "evidences" of her feelings for Zero being platonic, if there were, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

there is and as I mentioned Juliet laid it out in detail in this thread, the difference with love and friendship feelings as acted by Yuki.

I just saw this now; yes of course there is, see at the scans how Yuuki cares and tenders young Zero still from being kids? how she pads him at the back, giving him courage and pledges that she will be his ally BEFORE all this LT issue arises...that's why I posted all of these scans...to highlight that the care and interest that Yuuki showed to Zero back there, that was purely friendship, in fact does not changes even when she is leaving with Kaname (saying that she does not want to be enemies), it's a stable attitude that characterizes Yuuki's nature and attitude from the first days that she saw Zero being in a mess and wanted to help him. Therefore it does not necessarily support love feelings...as we see her love feelings for Kaname and there is not contradicting to another. In fact it helps in the disctiction of the two frienship vs romantic love and how Yuuki expresses these feelings to each.

And apparently for Hino to draw Yuuki OUT of this care/tender friendship attitude that was contantly presented during the first arc, and to persuade the reader that "hey her feelings have changed"...then Yuuki should also change attitude, and should pass from the one side to the other. Right now if this is Hino's way of demonstrating Zeki's love, it fails because it's a flat thing, it makes no difference neither for Yuuki nor for us, especially when Hino has demonstrated Yuuki's intimate feelings for Kaname with such an emphasis.

Sweet is right- this is Yuuki's ways of experiencing romantic love so in order for a true LT to exist - one that would really be strong, solid, competitive - according to me, Zeki should reach the high of Yume, there is true triangle is live and no arguements can be applied. Ambuiguity ends there. But right now judging from Yuuki's attitude from the first arc to now? is there any difference to Zeki?

Got 5 minutes... hmm, this just returns to VK's oldest topic and none of us will convince the other so I'll end it here. Let's just agree to disagree as usual.

Howl4fun wrote:Got 5 minutes... okay, I'm just gonna ask if we can agree to disagree. This just returns to an ancient topic and none of us will convince the other so I'll end it here. Peace.

He, he, well we all agree that we disagree...anyway there are some points there that if you liked to consider are open to discussion as always..