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    Yuki's relationship with Zero (chapter 73-74)

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    sweetsolace
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    Yuki's relationship with Zero (chapter 73-74)

    Post by sweetsolace on Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:17 pm

    First topic message reminder :

    what do you think?

    Based on chapter 73-74 revelations, is it friendship or romance?

    For me its always been friendship between them and this chapter just clarified it.
    There was nothing strong enough to indicate romance between them as it was not mutual and Zero's the only one who loves Yuki.

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    Re: Yuki's relationship with Zero (chapter 73-74)

    Post by juliet on Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:44 am

    Howl4fun wrote:Got 5 minutes... okay, I'm just gonna ask if we can agree to disagree. This just returns to an ancient topic and none of us will convince the other so I'll end it here. Peace.

    He, he, well we all agree that we disagree...anyway there are some points there that if you liked to consider are open to discussion as always..
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    Re: Yuki's relationship with Zero (chapter 73-74)

    Post by Howl4fun on Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:46 am

    juliet wrote:
    Howl4fun wrote:Got 5 minutes... okay, I'm just gonna ask if we can agree to disagree. This just returns to an ancient topic and none of us will convince the other so I'll end it here. Peace.

    He, he, well we all agree that we disagree...anyway there are some points there that if you liked to consider are open to discussion as always..



    Then I'll let you with the belief that I don't have an answer, lol. I do, but the more I counter your arguments, the more you will counter mine. That's why I want to end it beforehand as such a discussion never ends. I'm about as confident as you are that I'm right so we'll just have to wait and see x)
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    Re: Yuki's relationship with Zero (chapter 73-74)

    Post by juliet on Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:51 am

    Howl4fun wrote:
    juliet wrote:
    Howl4fun wrote:Got 5 minutes... okay, I'm just gonna ask if we can agree to disagree. This just returns to an ancient topic and none of us will convince the other so I'll end it here. Peace.

    He, he, well we all agree that we disagree...anyway there are some points there that if you liked to consider are open to discussion as always..



    Then I'll let you with the belief that I don't have an answer, lol. I do, but the more I counter your arguments, the more you will counter mine. That's why I want to end it beforehand as such a discussion never ends. I'm about as confident as you are that I'm right so we'll just have to wait and see x)

    yes...do not worry I am sure more will come on the way...and perhaps the japanese translationcan tell us more....so I think this subject will be open to discussion for a lot more chapters...






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    Re: Yuki's relationship with Zero (chapter 73-74)

    Post by Howl4fun on Tue Jul 26, 2011 12:55 pm

    juliet wrote:
    Howl4fun wrote:
    juliet wrote:

    He, he, well we all agree that we disagree...anyway there are some points there that if you liked to consider are open to discussion as always..



    Then I'll let you with the belief that I don't have an answer, lol. I do, but the more I counter your arguments, the more you will counter mine. That's why I want to end it beforehand as such a discussion never ends. I'm about as confident as you are that I'm right so we'll just have to wait and see x)

    yes...do not worry I am sure more will come on the way...and perhaps the japanese translationcan tell us more....so I think this subject will be open to discussion for a lot more chapters...



    Copying you by writing at work, lol. Thank you, I'm still waiting for a snarky reply for stating my confidence in zeki (expecting it) xD but I'll be glad to come back and discuss some more by the release of future chapters. Just have to wait two months :p



    EDIT: okay, responding to your and sweet's posts seems like fun, and I don't want you thinking that I don't have a reply, lol, so I'll get back to you after work. Razz


    Last edited by Howl4fun on Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:27 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    Re: Yuki's relationship with Zero (chapter 73-74)

    Post by loveiszero on Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:19 pm

    Howl4fun wrote:
    juliet wrote:
    Howl4fun wrote:



    Then I'll let you with the belief that I don't have an answer, lol. I do, but the more I counter your arguments, the more you will counter mine. That's why I want to end it beforehand as such a discussion never ends. I'm about as confident as you are that I'm right so we'll just have to wait and see x)

    yes...do not worry I am sure more will come on the way...and perhaps the japanese translationcan tell us more....so I think this subject will be open to discussion for a lot more chapters...



    Copying you by writing at work, lol. Thank you, I'm still waiting for a snarky reply for stating my confidence in zeki (expecting it) xD but I'll be glad to come back and discuss some more by the release of future chapters. Just have to wait two months :p

    LOL as far as I can tell (just started reading VK a month ago lol), this kind of discussion has been going on since the birth of VK. Its amazing how after 5 years, we're still here. Lets just wait another 2 and we'll finally be done.

    Hino has officially placed both pairs at the starting point of a relationship. With Kaname telling Yuuki to burn away al their past memories and create new ones, but they haven't done that with him leaving her right after. Now we have Yuuki wanting to start afresh with Zero also. Right now, none of us can say for sure where these 2 relationships are heading, anything beyond this is just purely speculation.

    Honestly, I hope next chapter will focus more on plots, rather than just romance.
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    Re: Yuki's relationship with Zero (chapter 73-74)

    Post by Knightmare on Tue Jul 26, 2011 2:36 pm

    Howl4fun wrote:
    Hmm, nope. Not really XD I was surprised that he offered his blood just like that, but not that he decided to openly help her in general. He'd been discreetly supporting her all along when she came to the HA, so it wasn't a "sudden twist". I was more surprised at this chapter in how he was so submissive to the point he just let her push and pin him down against a tree and looking so indifferent when she bit him. Only afterwards did he get a look on his face as if he was high, lol XD

    I was surprised he did it so quickly, but the circumstances all added up if you make a couple of assumptions. Hino never explains everything. But yeah, despite Zero implying they this is business transaction, he's so quick to submit once he sees Yuuki doing her best, he can't help but comply, like the dog that he is. Zero knows his true master.

    my friend's tl from the japanese raws makes a few things clearer to me (though she always says its not a perfect tl), from a zeki pov where this is leading. Yuuki's refraining from asking Zero about his hunger, though she clearly really wants to and worries for him, she's sticking to the line that he's drawn and its not even friendship. Yuuki clearly wants more, but she's taking what she can get. So under these rules, she's not allowed to care for him, but they're starting afresh and thats all that matters to her. What it means and where it leads, is ambiguous. But it's like the whole 'running away to keep Zero alive' Yuuki uses anything she can to keep a connection to Zero. But anyways, the gist is that Yuuki attitude toward Zero in 74 is limited by Zero's boundaries.

    SweetSolace wrote:
    by using comparisons inside the story it actually stays in context with how LOVE is portrayed inside the story rather than outside of it by using the context that already exists and that is in YUME, hence makes it more credible because its based inside.
    How is love portrayed in VK?
    - Shizuka showed love by teasing Ichiru, refusing to bite Ichiru and turn him into a vampire and causing him the same pain she caused her human lover, keeping him at a distance, giving him her flesh and blood.
    - Ichiru protected Shizuka and desired for her to turn him into a vampire, and completed her vengeance after her death. He never told her that he loved her, but he knew that she knew, but wasn't sure if she had loved him too.
    - Zero expresses his love for Yuuki in the first arc with his standard sullen nature, through his protective actions, not his words until he actually kissed her, alot of readers were certain he wasn't in love with her and called it friendship.
    - Maria yearns and searchs for Ichiru's presence.
    - Shiki and Rima protect one another, constant companions and friends who share much in common.
    - Kain, protecting Ruka and follows her dogmatically, accepted her love for Kaname silently.
    - Ruka as a child gushed about Kaname, as she grew older, she became a Kaname fan girl, but also observant, selfless and fiercly protected Kaname from others and himself.
    - Haruka and Juri, physically affectionate and close, babbled fondly and warmly about one another, starting out with Juri tsunderely hostile to Haruka's persistent attachment to her.
    -There's even the crueller unhealthy side of love, with Rido's love for Juri expressed in an all encompassing desire to consume her.
    Love in VK has been both subtle and obvious and varied. Love in vk comes in many forms as in real life.

    Its pretty simple. Kaname tells Yuuki that she needs the blood of her beloved to satisfy her, Yuuki's conclusion is that she won't be satisfied without Zero's blood. Yuuki doesn't include Yori in that, who no doubt she loves wholeheartedly. Yuuki doesn't think of her attachment to Zero as just friendship, it goes beyond that or she wouldn't believe that without him she can't be satisfied. Yuuki's heart according to Kaname (a year ago) is 50/50 between Zero and Kaname, Yuuki states that Kaname cannot be happy with that. If all Yuuki feels for Zero is what she considers friendship, she shouldn't consider that making Kaname unhappy. She wouldn't consider herself so cruel confessing such things to Kaname a year later. And none of this has been reversed because yuuki hasn't reaffirmed.

    "I don't mind if there is someone else inside your heart. You are who you are because you have a big heart...yet you told me you want to stay by my side. You'll suffer over it...because you have love inside your heart for me too."
    ch52

    Different opinions are expected, but my interpration of the above is that Kaname is reminding Yuuki that she still loves him, because Zero in her heart is encroaching on that.

    73-74 are not loved focused, there's no room for that, its about rebuilding the relationship to where they can just talk to another first. maria does teeter the balance with a little foreshadowing, bringing up needing Kaname vs Zero and implying that the two cannot co-exist in Yuki's heart.
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    Re: Yuki's relationship with Zero (chapter 73-74)

    Post by loveiszero on Tue Jul 26, 2011 2:54 pm

    Knightmare wrote:

    Its pretty simple. Kaname tells Yuuki that she needs the blood of her beloved to satisfy her, Yuuki's conclusion is that she won't be satisfied without Zero's blood. Yuuki doesn't include Yori in that, who no doubt she loves wholeheartedly. Yuuki doesn't think of her attachment to Zero as just friendship, it goes beyond that or she wouldn't believe that without him she can be satisfied. Yuuki's heart according to Kaname (a year ago) is 50/50 between Zero and Kaname, Yuuki states that Kaname cannot be happy with that. If all Yuuki feels for Zero is what she considers friendship, she shouldn't consider that making Kaname unhappy. She wouldn't consider herself so cruel confessing such things to Kaname a year later. And none of this has been reversed because yuuki hasn't reaffirmed.

    "I don't mind if there is someone else inside your heart. You are who you are because you have a big heart...yet you told me you want to stay by my side. You'll suffer over it...because you have love inside your heart for me too."
    ch52

    Different opinions are expected, but my interpration of the above is that Kaname is reminding Yuuki that she still loves him, because Zero in her heart is encroaching on that.

    73-74 are not loved focused, there's no room for that, its about rebuilding the relationship to where they can just talk to another first. maria does teeter the balance with a little foreshadowing, bringing up needing Kaname vs Zero and implying that the two cannot co-exist in Yuki's heart.
    First, I rofl at your comment about Zero doggy behavior lol, he was called a dog by Sara also. (And fixed something for ya).

    Let's take this from a different angle. What kind of man would it make Kaname if he was jealous to the point of telling Yuuki to only drink his blood as punishment, all for her platonic feelings for Zero? Wouldn't it make him a controlling, without reason and petty? Since this isn't the case, it is really just as simple as Knightmare said. Yuuki is "two-timing" with her emotion, period.
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    Re: Yuki's relationship with Zero (chapter 73-74)

    Post by sweetsolace on Tue Jul 26, 2011 5:20 pm

    Knightmare wrote:
    How is love portrayed in VK? ...
    lol! what I originally meant was how Yuki viewed love since she's the subject but I think it was mixed..

    Its pretty simple. Kaname tells Yuuki that she needs the blood of her beloved to satisfy her, Yuuki's conclusion is that she won't be satisfied without Zero's blood. Yuuki doesn't include Yori in that, who no doubt she loves wholeheartedly. Yuuki doesn't think of her attachment to Zero as just friendship, it goes beyond that or she wouldn't believe that without him she can't be satisfied. Yuuki's heart according to Kaname (a year ago) is 50/50 between Zero and Kaname, Yuuki states that Kaname cannot be happy with that. If all Yuuki feels for Zero is what she considers friendship, she shouldn't consider that making Kaname unhappy. She wouldn't consider herself so cruel confessing such things to Kaname a year later. And none of this has been reversed because yuuki hasn't reaffirmed.

    "I don't mind if there is someone else inside your heart. You are who you are because you have a big heart...yet you told me you want to stay by my side. You'll suffer over it...because you have love inside your heart for me too."
    ch52

    Different opinions are expected, but my interpration of the above is that Kaname is reminding Yuuki that she still loves him, because Zero in her heart is encroaching on that.

    When Yuki told Kaname about her attachment to Zero, it was about attachment, it didn't say it was love. She admits part of her was attached to him, and attributed her dissatisfaction because of that, but this actually doesn't make sense if Kaname's blood is enough for her or she feels like she can never get enough of it. There are conflicting views there that doesn't match with what Yuki shows with Kaname. So my other interpretation there is she probably means she cannot severe her ties with Zero, she shows in her thoughts that she wants to keep running away from him, but he's also one of the people who can satisfy her, and since he had confessed having love feelings for her, Yuki now views this attachment in relation to staying with Kaname as disloyalty.
    The difference between Zero and Yori and other loved ones on Yuki's list is Zero loves her romantically, so bearing this kind of attachment for him and the possibility of biting him one day is already disloyalty. Again its not strong enough to indicate Yuki does love him romantically too, she just says part of her heart is attached to him and we've seen her try to move on from him too and try to mend the dispute between them.
    Also I think its considered Kaname and Yuki are officially in a pureblood relationship, I recall reading somewhere in the manga that the role of a pureblood's mate is quite important for the survival of both, and they generally feed on each other when available.
    For Yuki to have desire for Zero's blood (as one of her loved ones), Zero who loves her romantically, I believe is already a form of disloyalty, but she cannot end her attachment to him so in a way she feels bad for staying with Kaname. As for Kaname getting "jealous" I thought they made an agreement before that that Yuki was only to take Kaname's blood and Yuki takes from him only, in a way it was an agreement between couples and IMO had to do with what I already explained. Yuki admits she desires Zero's blood, and she desires for them to be back together again, but she does not admit that she loves him romantically nor does she appear to want to return his feelings.

    73-74 are not loved focused, there's no room for that, its about rebuilding the relationship to where they can just talk to another first. maria does teeter the balance with a little foreshadowing, bringing up needing Kaname vs Zero and implying that the two cannot co-exist in Yuki's heart.
    In short the chapters does mark the beginning of a new friendship, not romance. They are too far from getting romantic and definitely going to take a while. I'm not too expectant with Maria triggering another response from Yuki if she should jump to Zero again as she had already triggered the response for Yuki to talk to Zero. but who knows. but im through with repeats, Vampire knight would be a better place if it stops focusing on Yuki.

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    Re: Yuki's relationship with Zero (chapter 73-74)

    Post by juliet on Tue Jul 26, 2011 6:01 pm

    sweetsolace wrote: I believe is already a form of disloyalty, but she cannot end her attachment to him so in a way she feels bad for staying with Kaname. As for Kaname getting "jealous" I thought they made an agreement before that that Yuki was only to take Kaname's blood and Yuki takes from him only, in a way it was an agreement between couples and IMO had to do with what I already explained. Yuki admits she desires Zero's blood, and she desires for them to be back together again, but she does not admit that she loves him romantically nor does she appear to want to return his feelings.



    Let's make it clear; its Yuuki's reaction that makes Kaname to tell her to take his blood. If Yuuki had not reacted by feeling guilts due to her attachment to Zero and had not thrown the weight on Kaname, Kaname would have never stated such a thing.

    Let's take this from a different angle. What kind of man would it make Kaname if he was jealous to the point of telling Yuuki to only drink his blood as punishment, all for her platonic feelings for Zero?

    Punishment? Jealous? No, you are totally mistaken here, Kaname is neither jealous, neither puts her a "punishment". Is Yuuki that states that "I want to take the responsibility" and its Kaname stating "I wish you drink only my blood, that is a way to take your responsibility". and it is stated in the official volume that way and its completely understood because Yuuki there wants to drag Kaname to her guilt trip, in fact he is making her a favor....

    But if her Yuuki's feelings for Zero are that strong and her attachment is that of a loving nature would Yuuki ever accept such a solution for her guilt? It is actually so easy for her to take responsibility and the pleasure is all hers. "I would feel like accepting anything..." Kaname lost a great chance there rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl Such a great resistance there!

    If Hino wanted to empasize the love bond of Zero with Yuuki she missed her chance there. Flat here, flat there...okay a love that starts developping after how many years or leaves there little ambuiguish pieces. But where are Yuuki's inner thoughts and dialogues? How is it that the two men exist in her as in the first arc but with different roles? that of the friend/that of the loved one. I do not see the great dinstiction and after so many chapters there should be a different approach to Zeki if Hino wishes to escape the friendship state.






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    Re: Yuki's relationship with Zero (chapter 73-74)

    Post by sari15 on Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:18 pm

    sweetsolace wrote:
    Knightmare wrote:73-74 are not loved focused, there's no room for that, its about rebuilding the relationship to where they can just talk to another first. maria does teeter the balance with a little foreshadowing, bringing up needing Kaname vs Zero and implying that the two cannot co-exist in Yuki's heart.
    In short the chapters does mark the beginning of a new friendship, not romance. They are too far from getting romantic and definitely going to take a while. I'm not too expectant with Maria triggering another response from Yuki if she should jump to Zero again as she had already triggered the response for Yuki to talk to Zero. but who knows. but im through with repeats, Vampire knight would be a better place if it stops focusing on Yuki.



    Razz It's a shoujo manga, which is typically focused on relationships as the main plot. We'd have an entirely different story if it stopped focusing on Yuuki.



    I think the two situations with the 'start over' makes it fairly clear on why those of us who are Zero/Yuuki shippers feel the way that we do. If you don't believe that Yuuki's heart holds romantic feelings for Zero, obviously I'm not going to convince you of anything. But the reasons for the reset in both relationships are not the same and it's this difference that gives Zero an edge, I think.

    With Kaname, Yuuki wanted to start over and look at him head on. She wanted to see Kaname for Kaname.

    http://www.mangareader.net/104-58423-26/vampire-knight/chapter-66.html

    http://www.mangareader.net/104-58423-26/vampire-knight/chapter-66.html

    http://www.mangareader.net/104-58423-28/vampire-knight/chapter-66.html



    Yuuki seems very confused here about her own emotions. She's realized that everything she's believed up to this point--is not the truth. That within his own heart, she's pretty insignificant considering the length of time he's been alive. She knows she's important but it has to feel like something standing in a huge open field on a cloudless night. The expanse you feel beneath the stars can make you feel very small in comparison to the world. She wants to start fresh with him and actually get to know him. To make memories that impact his life. The person she's 'been in love with'...she does not know. At all. That's the point of looking at him clearly with a pair of fresh eyes, to figure out who he is because she doesn't know him.



    The situation with Zero is different. The relationship is fractured and broken due to everything that happened. Yuuki decided she wanted to talk with him like normal again--even though she promised to keep running from him so he can continue to live. This is not only selfish of her, but possibly damaging to Zero. A bond she wants in her life--no matter the cost to both of them. At this point, Yuuki is literally just trying to get her foot in the door before that door closes again.



    If you want to believe this "bond" Yuuki has to Zero has no romantic attachment at all, that it's all just friendship. That she felt all this guilt, refused to use her fangs, tried to deny her vampirism, and hurt Kaname's feelings by saying a part of her heart is attached to a "friend"--that's fine.



    But if Yuuki's looking to get her relationship back with Zero, it can't be the same as the last time because most of the aspects of their relationship are things missing from her relationship with Kaname. These things Zero provided Yuuki, a shoulder to cry on, advice, unrelenting support to help her reach her goals, a natural partnership, an openness for both to share their worries and a sense of comfort--are all things that should be present in a romantic relationship yet IMO are lacking depth in the Yume relationship. If they are there, they appear surface or just are missing all together. Yuuki has not turned to Kaname for these things like one is supposed to--yet now she's wanting this relationship back with Zero when these are the very things she should be doing with Kaname to 'look at him clearly'.

    She already sees Zero clearly. Sure, it could only be friendship she's after with him in the long run but I don't imagine that will be the case after her time with Kaname. Yuuki knows what was lacking in that relationship and when she proposed the "Start Over" it was because she was unhappy with how their relationship worked and wanted to strive to change it. It was surface. She knew nothing about him. He was pretty much a stranger to her and she realized that.



    Zero on the other hand, she knows. Though they disagreed about things they did manage to get along. They did have a strong friendship and this friendship now just remains shattered into pieces on the floor. Things went wrong but there is potential to rebuild. It's what they both rebuild it into that will tell us what they each want from this relationship. The reason we say it's too 'early' is because 'love' should not even be in the equation yet between these two. Their base for their relationship has never been 'love' it's always just been their actual relationship.



    It's sort of like they broke a nice quality vase--then just tried to ignore the mess by avoiding the room. Yuuki now has decided to go into the room and clean up the mess and see if she can put that vase back together. Zero's the one that opened the door but I don't think he's quite ready to go help her clean up yet. If he does, each piece they pick up will have to be inspected before deciding what to do with it. It also doesn't mean just because it started out a vase, it's going to end up that way. Parts might be thrown away that just don't fit. They might find something else in the room that works and add that to it.



    The point is, neither of these Start Overs is going to be easy. It's going to take two people to build a relationship that both sides are happy with. More importantly it's going to take time. Love or not, in order for this relationship to mend there are going to be a series of steps that strengthen their relationship and bond. But these steps will be taken tentatively because they both have been hurt and need to reestablish ways to prevent it from happening again--both so they don't hurt the other or themselves.
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    Re: Yuki's relationship with Zero (chapter 73-74)

    Post by Anneliezz on Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:56 pm

    sari15 wrote: It's sort of like they broke a nice quality vase--then just tried to ignore the mess by avoiding the room. Yuuki now has decided to go into the room and clean up the mess and see if she can put that vase back together. Zero's the one that opened the door but I don't think he's quite ready to go help her clean up yet. If he does, each piece they pick up will have to be inspected before deciding what to do with it. It also doesn't mean just because it started out a vase, it's going to end up that way. Parts might be thrown away that just don't fit. They might find something else in the room that works and add that to it.




    I really love how you have compared this. Nice wordings and totally how zeki is right now. Although I think it might be added, that however Z is not ready to help to pick up the pieces yet, he wants to. It's the whole 'loving-but-not admitting-part' that is present in my pov.
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    Re: Yuki's relationship with Zero (chapter 73-74)

    Post by sweetsolace on Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:01 pm

    @sari15
    lol the whole point was that a repeat would seem space-consuming especially if its for Yuki's LT considering it is happening during a time when its chaotic and she should be getting her wits together. But I generally get the feeling some zekis don't care about the plot and only the outcome of Yuki's heart so, lol, not surprised.

    on seeing Yuki's relationship with Zero as friendship I believe it was already mentioned somewhere here that its not just a belief but its also supported by the manga pages, but if you insist to believe there's love and romance feel free to do so. Razz the scans are there to prove this wrong though

    I think you're generally misunderstanding the start over. The point of starting over with Kaname was to improve their romantic relationship, while the point of starting over with Zero was to go back to their relationship as friends in the first arc. It's always been what she wanted, her actions keep indicating that she doesn't want them to become enemies, but rather on a relationship that is either neutral or non-enemy. She didn't start over with Zero because she was using him to patch up the holes she didn't get with Kaname, IMO that's twisting it and makes her character worse, she has no reason to use Zero as a rebound because she wanted to start afresh with him, and IMO she's starting over with Kaname for different reasons as with Zero.

    the difference with Zero's start over is she wants them to become the same way they were before, and in the first arc they were friends, not lovers. And she wanted this, she was pretty consistent with how she wanted it back--the awkward moments trying to communicate with him in chapter 60, trying to convince herself they're enemies but fails in chapter 71, and so on. She never, not once, acted like she loved him romantically. Even after drinking his blood this was what she wants out of their relationship--Friendship. But if you imagine she wants it back because of love, that's ok.

    Zero and Yuki's relationship mainly bounced on friendship, broken friendship and one sided romance. There's no evidence of Yuki ever returning his feelings or indicating she loves him ever since his forced confession on chapter X, but if you believe it exists go ahead. Mostly she acted like someone who wanted it to be the same way again, but never a person who's in love. This was already discussed in the scans before this.

    If you want to believe this "bond" Yuuki has to Zero has no romantic attachment at all, that it's all just friendship. That she felt all this guilt, refused to use her fangs, tried to deny her vampirism, and hurt Kaname's feelings by saying a part of her heart is attached to a "friend"--that's fine.
    there is no romantic attachment that can be logically backed by evidence nor is supported by her actions towards him because its the SAME as how she treated him in the first arc with slight differences; she always cared for him and up to now she also does. this romantic attachment might as well have been invented by the ambiguity. She had never admitted it, she had never showed it, she never said it, it was never directly stated, it was all implied but never consistently supported by her actions. This makes it all liable to be proven as wrong or its already wrong, and previously the scans posted here I believe have proven it wrong. There's no difference in the love because its Yuki, not two different person. There is of course a difference in the way she treats them because she obviously treats one as a friend while she treats the other as her lover. But if you still believe they have romantic attachments, thats fine.
    And there's the fact that Yuki had never returned her supposed love feelings for Zero, when she's supposed to love him too, so its been a one-sided love since chapter x.
    When will it happen, when will she return it? It seems she's also making a one sided effort here to mend things with him too, if she's in love with him why is she the only one making an effort to fix their supposed romantic relationship? The scenario seems similar with their relationship since square one, Yuki pats him on the back and Zero feels light again and decides to continue helping Yuki despite his feelings for her which he will always keep out of the way and she on the other hand will always want his friendship.

    The reason we say it's too 'early' is because 'love' should not even be in the equation yet between these two. Their base for their relationship has never been 'love' it's always just been their actual relationship.
    precisely, because they were meant to be friends from the beginning. Its always been the common theme between the two of them, friends who help each other thru times of need, friends who became enemies and then became friends again, while the other has one sided love. So far I didn't see this change.


    Last edited by sweetsolace on Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:15 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    Re: Yuki's relationship with Zero (chapter 73-74)

    Post by VampireCythia on Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:09 pm

    sari15 wrote:
    sweetsolace wrote:
    Knightmare wrote:73-74 are not loved focused, there's no room for that, its about rebuilding the relationship to where they can just talk to another first. maria does teeter the balance with a little foreshadowing, bringing up needing Kaname vs Zero and implying that the two cannot co-exist in Yuki's heart.
    In short the chapters does mark the beginning of a new friendship, not romance. They are too far from getting romantic and definitely going to take a while. I'm not too expectant with Maria triggering another response from Yuki if she should jump to Zero again as she had already triggered the response for Yuki to talk to Zero. but who knows. but im through with repeats, Vampire knight would be a better place if it stops focusing on Yuki.



    Razz It's a shoujo manga, which is typically focused on relationships as the main plot. We'd have an entirely different story if it stopped focusing on Yuuki.



    I think the two situations with the 'start over' makes it fairly clear on why those of us who are Zero/Yuuki shippers feel the way that we do. If you don't believe that Yuuki's heart holds romantic feelings for Zero, obviously I'm not going to convince you of anything. But the reasons for the reset in both relationships are not the same and it's this difference that gives Zero an edge, I think.

    With Kaname, Yuuki wanted to start over and look at him head on. She wanted to see Kaname for Kaname.

    http://www.mangareader.net/104-58423-26/vampire-knight/chapter-66.html

    http://www.mangareader.net/104-58423-26/vampire-knight/chapter-66.html

    http://www.mangareader.net/104-58423-28/vampire-knight/chapter-66.html



    Yuuki seems very confused here about her own emotions. She's realized that everything she's believed up to this point--is not the truth. That within his own heart, she's pretty insignificant considering the length of time he's been alive. She knows she's important but it has to feel like something standing in a huge open field on a cloudless night. The expanse you feel beneath the stars can make you feel very small in comparison to the world. She wants to start fresh with him and actually get to know him. To make memories that impact his life. The person she's 'been in love with'...she does not know. At all. That's the point of looking at him clearly with a pair of fresh eyes, to figure out who he is because she doesn't know him.



    The situation with Zero is different. The relationship is fractured and broken due to everything that happened. Yuuki decided she wanted to talk with him like normal again--even though she promised to keep running from him so he can continue to live. This is not only selfish of her, but possibly damaging to Zero. A bond she wants in her life--no matter the cost to both of them. At this point, Yuuki is literally just trying to get her foot in the door before that door closes again.



    If you want to believe this "bond" Yuuki has to Zero has no romantic attachment at all, that it's all just friendship. That she felt all this guilt, refused to use her fangs, tried to deny her vampirism, and hurt Kaname's feelings by saying a part of her heart is attached to a "friend"--that's fine.



    But if Yuuki's looking to get her relationship back with Zero, it can't be the same as the last time because most of the aspects of their relationship are things missing from her relationship with Kaname. These things Zero provided Yuuki, a shoulder to cry on, advice, unrelenting support to help her reach her goals, a natural partnership, an openness for both to share their worries and a sense of comfort--are all things that should be present in a romantic relationship yet IMO are lacking depth in the Yume relationship. If they are there, they appear surface or just are missing all together. Yuuki has not turned to Kaname for these things like one is supposed to--yet now she's wanting this relationship back with Zero when these are the very things she should be doing with Kaname to 'look at him clearly'.

    She already sees Zero clearly. Sure, it could only be friendship she's after with him in the long run but I don't imagine that will be the case after her time with Kaname. Yuuki knows what was lacking in that relationship and when she proposed the "Start Over" it was because she was unhappy with how their relationship worked and wanted to strive to change it. It was surface. She knew nothing about him. He was pretty much a stranger to her and she realized that.



    Zero on the other hand, she knows. Though they disagreed about things they did manage to get along. They did have a strong friendship and this friendship now just remains shattered into pieces on the floor. Things went wrong but there is potential to rebuild. It's what they both rebuild it into that will tell us what they each want from this relationship. The reason we say it's too 'early' is because 'love' should not even be in the equation yet between these two. Their base for their relationship has never been 'love' it's always just been their actual relationship.



    It's sort of like they broke a nice quality vase--then just tried to ignore the mess by avoiding the room. Yuuki now has decided to go into the room and clean up the mess and see if she can put that vase back together. Zero's the one that opened the door but I don't think he's quite ready to go help her clean up yet. If he does, each piece they pick up will have to be inspected before deciding what to do with it. It also doesn't mean just because it started out a vase, it's going to end up that way. Parts might be thrown away that just don't fit. They might find something else in the room that works and add that to it.



    The point is, neither of these Start Overs is going to be easy. It's going to take two people to build a relationship that both sides are happy with. More importantly it's going to take time. Love or not, in order for this relationship to mend there are going to be a series of steps that strengthen their relationship and bond. But these steps will be taken tentatively because they both have been hurt and need to reestablish ways to prevent it from happening again--both so they don't hurt the other or themselves.



    Sari you so much right. I agree with you. Both couples have something the other couple missing. When Zeki have rebuild they freindship both couples is equals! I have been told since i was little, that in a relationship you both needs to be lovers and friends. You all know that in Yume allways have been going something romantic going on but Yuuki can not depend on Kaname as a friend and Kaname have allways keep secret from Yuuki. So there is missing trust here. In Zeki relationship when they was friends they could read each others feelings and if Yuuki was sad she could allways depend on him. If they can be friends again then again if Zero really still loves her(he think he stills do he just don´t know it) he should try to make her love him. The truth is that he never have tried to. He have allthrough the serie never tried to becasure he didn´t mean that he deserve to. He said that once that he should never yearn for her.



    It´s just a matter of time before we know the ending couple.
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    Re: Yuki's relationship with Zero (chapter 73-74)

    Post by juliet on Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:21 pm

    sweetsolace wrote:

    The reason we say it's too 'early' is because 'love' should not even be in the equation yet between these two. Their base for their relationship has never been 'love' it's always just been their actual relationship.
    precisely, because they were meant to be friends from the beginning. Its always been the common theme between the two of them, friends who help each other thru times of need, friends who became enemies and then became friends again, while the other has one sided love. So far I didn't see this change.

    The main fact is exactly as you state it; the change. Even if we adopt Zeki's perspecive thus we believe that Yuuki has romantic feelings for Zero where is the change to her? inside her? something that tell us "LOVE" as Yuuki experiences love thus her feelings for Zero (no matter how she expresses them) have to be higher than the feelings that we have seen her expressing for Kaname (see scans) in order Zeki to rise. How is it possible for Hino to create a subtle love that will surpass Yume consciously if Hino does not create the equivalent or even higher pathos and desire?

    And when? will it be persuasive to do it at the last ten chapters when there are 80 chapters (let's suppose) that actually lebel LOVE as Yume? How late is it going to be?

    Apparently even Yumes (according to my opinion) would accept a far more dynamic Yuuki that has the courage to admit her feelings as we could all move on.
    But why to buy a split in her heart Yuuki when even Yuuki does not even bother with that? I can not confess it in the place of the manga character...






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    Re: Yuki's relationship with Zero (chapter 73-74)

    Post by Howl4fun on Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:35 pm

    So you were suprised as well by his attitude. Then why are you just throwing the ball just to us?


    Knightmare explained it well. Besides, being a little surprised at parts of his actions is a huge difference to being surprised at his entire action, as some of you apparently didn't saw it coming at all.


    The comparisons made here were even based on Yuki, who is the object in question here, not Jack or Rose, Romeo and Juliet etc., she's the one showing love and friendship and HOW she shows it. So do you mean to say that Yuki shows different expressions for love in Zero or Kaname? Then she is just two timing and it doesn't fit what she wanted out of her relationship with Zero which was a start over, not romance.



    What I mean is that with Kaname, Yuuki had that case where the girl quickly realized/always knew she loved the guy, while with Zero, it's rather the girl being dense and not realizing her feelings might go beyond friendship for the longest time. Like the time Zero almost kissed her and she kept getting blush fits and heart throbs afterwards, she didn't understand why. In the end she had to remind herself that she and Zero were supposed to be siblings, and that it didn't mean anything to him, so from there it got cut off.



    then WHEN? When will she realize that moment you say exists? The bite was supposed to be the key to realizing this, I remember how many made so much drama over it being the indicative moment, and now you're saying its too early because nothing happened?



    Really? I was excited that she was going to bite him in general, not that her true feelings would be POOF revealed and like that the LT got solved with a spontaneous bite, lol XD You think we'd like it that easy? I know you're glad the bite didn't make anything clear, besides from it apparently meaning there's nothing ahead of them but friendship... which is what I mean is kinda early to tell, but if you say so, these are one of the things I think we should just agree to disagree on. As for WHEN, well, this manga have apparently 30 chapters left or so, so we've a good while left before this WHEN may come. Though I hope it's not going to be during the last 5 chapters or so. >.>

    About taking so little of his blood however, there's actually no deeper meaning to this. Zero has a trauma with being bitten, and Yuuki knows this, that's why saying "I only need a little" was her way of telling him she'd be quick about it, as in "Don't worry, I won't bite you that long/deep." Last chapter it was also stated, if I don't recall wrong, how she bit him because she's "mad" with hunger, and yet in this chapter she's speaking calmly with him for a while first and also restrained her drinking to what looked like a tiny bit. Not what I would expect from a "mad hunger", though it might just be me.



    IF any of that happens. IMO its just repetitive.



    Oh come on, yume can be repetitive, but zeki cannot?



    I just saw this now; yes of course there is, see at the scans how Yuuki cares and tenders young Zero still from being kids? how she pads him at the back, giving him courage and pledges that she will be his ally BEFORE all this LT issue arises...that's why I posted all of these scans...to highlight that the care and interest that Yuuki showed to Zero back there, that was purely friendship, in fact does not changes even when she is leaving with Kaname (saying that she does not want to be enemies), it's a stable attitude that characterizes Yuuki's nature and attitude from the first days that she saw Zero being in a mess and wanted to help him. Therefore it does not necessarily support love feelings...as we see her love feelings for Kaname and there is not contradicting to another. In fact it helps in the disctiction of the two frienship vs romantic love and how Yuuki expresses these feelings to each.



    Nice explaining from your POV, but this isn't an "evidence" as you call it. An evidence is something that can't be argued What.So.Ever. In other words; a fact. Zeki being platonic/one-sided or not is an opinion/interpretion/matter of viewpoint, whatever you like to call it, not a fact. How does Yuuki nurturing Zero as a kid, being his ally as a teen null the possibility of romantic feelings? O.o I don't mind if this is your opinion of it, but I hardly see how it can be considered an "evidence". This is what my original post was explaing, how love develops differently in different relationships. And being by each other's sides for four years, growing together, mutually caring and fighting for the other, sharing thoughts and fears and seeking comfort with one another, can very well lead to a possibility of love starting to grow somewhere, albeit slowly (for the couple) and ambiguisly (for us readers). That's my opinion of it, though not an evidence. As neither can you call yours.



    Again you keep saying how you don't see the love in zeki, it's not developed enough, it's "flat" etc. while for me it's the complete opposite. Which is mainly what I think we should just agree to disagree on. Hope I answered to what you wondered to.


    Last edited by Howl4fun on Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:48 pm; edited 3 times in total
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    Re: Yuki's relationship with Zero (chapter 73-74)

    Post by sweetsolace on Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:42 pm

    juliet wrote:
    sweetsolace wrote:

    The reason we say it's too 'early' is because 'love' should not even be in the equation yet between these two. Their base for their relationship has never been 'love' it's always just been their actual relationship.
    precisely, because they were meant to be friends from the beginning. Its always been the common theme between the two of them, friends who help each other thru times of need, friends who became enemies and then became friends again, while the other has one sided love. So far I didn't see this change.

    The main fact is exactly as you state it; the change. Even if we adopt Zeki's perspecive thus we believe that Yuuki has romantic feelings for Zero where is the change to her? inside her? something that tell us "LOVE" as Yuuki experiences love thus her feelings for Zero (no matter how she expresses them) have to be higher than the feelings that we have seen her expressing for Kaname (see scans) in order Zeki to rise. How is it possible for Hino to create a subtle love that will surpass Yume consciously if Hino does not create the equivalent or even higher pathos and desire?

    And when? will it be persuasive to do it at the last ten chapters when there are 80 chapters (let's suppose) that actually lebel LOVE as Yume? How late is it going to be?

    Apparently even Yumes (according to my opinion) would accept a far more dynamic Yuuki that has the courage to admit her feelings as we could all move on.
    But why to buy a split in her heart Yuuki when even Yuuki does not even bother with that? I can not confess it in the place of the manga character...
    couldn't agree more. especially with the bold.

    the fact is it has to show from Yuki herself. It doesn't show that she loves him. She doesn't even show any love directed to Zero romantically. She doesn't even have any moments of "i love him" realizations. And even if its going to develop from friends to lovers its just stupendously wasting sooo much space overall for developing tons of pages for YUME only to break it apart by developing another set of romance and the steps to develop it, when the story overall doesn't even look like its spitting any answers...at all Shocked and all this for the LT? The story is not all about the LT, IMO it wont waste chapters for this or trash development of a pairing. this completely sounds like an idea that can develop in fanfiction.


    howl4fun wrote:What I mean is that with Kaname, Yuuki had that case where the girl quickly realized/always knew she loved the guy, while with Zero, it's rather the girl being dense and not realizing her feelings might go beyond friendship for the longest time. Like the time Zero almost kissed her and she kept getting blush fits and heart throbs afterwards, she didn't understand why. In the end she had to remind herself that she and Zero were supposed to be siblings, and that it didn't mean anything to him, so from there it got cut off.
    but this is VAMPIRE KNIGHT. Not another story. The circumstances are different. But if you insist to hope romance will bloom someday that's fine.

    Really? I was excited that she was going to bite him in general, not that her true feelings would be POOF revealed and like that the LT got solved with a spontaneous bite, lol XD You think we'd like it that easy? I know you're glad the bite didn't make anything clear, besides from it apparently meaning there's nothing ahead of them but friendship... which is what I mean is kinda early to tell, but if you say so, these are one of the things I think we should just agree to disagree on. As for WHEN, well, this manga have apparently 30 chapters left or so, so we've a good while left before this WHEN may come. Though I hope it's not going to be during the last 5 chapters or so. >.>

    lol of course for someone who is only after the LT I can see why you would think there would be just enough space to develop it again. How convenient. rofl sure sure...whatever you say. nothing wrong with wanting more out of nothing.

    About taking so little of his blood however, there's actually no deeper meaning to this.
    exactly. because they're friends. Smile



    Oh come on, yume can be repetitive, but zeki cannot?
    I mean the use of PLOT DEVICES, clearly you skipped the part where I mentioned that... Razz




    Nice explaining from your POV, but this isn't an "evidence" as you call it.
    hoho... Razz Razz there you're an evidence of someone who's not reading. Razz probably you skipped pages again? did you check the long posts there made by juliet and nina? no? yes? well? you have your own opinion though, as always, and if you insist on your romantic belief go ahead..

    though what do you say to that, as your version of "evidences?"
    gut feelings? -"I feel like ZEKI will be endgame"
    hints? -"part of her heart attached to him VS everything YUME did.."
    references to other stories? -"ZEKI is so similar to RomeoJuliet which means they are endgame"
    opinions? -"I totally liked the bond with Zeki that's why I'm sure they will be endgame"

    what is your evidence? your evidence which is utterly opinionated and based on pure hints?

    I've not seen a ZEKI answer to the questions YUME posted about the problems of ZEKI being love, so how does this contradict our point of views or this fact?
    on the other hand there you are with the rest saying after all this discussion, "how can you say ZEKI is friendship?" , but not even dare explain why it cannot be friendship or why it can be love, or why it can be anything but friendship, the argument just has to start with a whine and a toast... Razz


    Last edited by sweetsolace on Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Yuki's relationship with Zero (chapter 73-74)

    Post by nina on Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:15 pm

    My “problem” with Zeki reasoning is that isn’t based on the story traits and statements but in generalization and on interpretations of how they think that the story WILL go or should go. In most cases also they’re projecting the type of love that they prefer.

    My point is that the comparison should be made using the traits of the specific story in question, cuz not only there are different expressions of love but there are differences on the way every author wants to depict the love/romance into their manga.

    knightmare wrote: How is love portrayed in VK?
    - Shizuka showed love by teasing Ichiru, refusing to bite Ichiru and turn him into a vampire and causing him the same pain she caused her human lover, keeping him at a distance, giving him her flesh and blood.
    - Ichiru protected Shizuka and desired for her to turn him into a vampire, and completed her vengeance after her death. He never told her that he loved her, but he knew that she knew, but wasn't sure if she had loved him too.
    - Zero expresses his love for Yuuki in the first arc with his standard sullen nature, through his protective actions, not his words until he actually kissed her, alot of readers were certain he wasn't in love with her and called it friendship.
    - Maria yearns and searchs for Ichiru's presence.
    - Shiki and Rima protect one another, constant companions and friends who share much in common.
    - Kain, protecting Ruka and follows her dogmatically, accepted her love for Kaname silently.
    - Ruka as a child gushed about Kaname, as she grew older, she became a Kaname fan girl, but also observant, selfless and fiercly protected Kaname from others and himself.
    - Haruka and Juri, physically affectionate and close, babbled fondly and warmly about one another, starting out with Juri tsunderely hostile to Haruka's persistent attachment to her.

    All the above ^^^ relations are one-sided loves except from Haruka/Juri and Shiki/Rima. Actually for Shiki/Rima we don’t have almost any clue for their romantic relationship and they are secondery characters either way so they are not representable couple to explore the romance in VK cuz of lack of “time-screen”.

    -There's even the crueller unhealthy side of love, with Rido's love for Juri expressed in an all encompassing desire to consume her.

    1. Again Rido’s love for Juri was one-sided.
    2. Rido wasn’t always mad though … Juri’s rejection turned Rido into a mad man cuz he couldn’t take the blood which he desired.

    But the fact that he wanted to consume Juri it’s not an expression of unhealthy love ofc … cuz this need has been expressed from Zero, Yuuki and Kaname as well.

    If you think that such statements indicate unhealthy relations then you’re not accepting Hino’s way to depict love/romance/passion for vampires cuz do not coincide with your preferences as I can see … If I didn’t understand correctly feel free to correct me.

    So the wording “I want to devour you to the very limits of your life” have stated from>>>

    1. Zero --- > Yuuki
    2. Kaname < --- > Yuuki

    3. Yuuki …”I need just a bit of your blood to do my job as a PB Kuran”--> Zero>>> obviously “using” Zero as a stepping stone in order to achieve her objectives and that’s why she asks his permission to proceed.

    So again the comparison is smashing … unhealthy or not for someone else’s standards, certainly not unhealthy for the author …

    Note that I’m not suggesting that Yuuki should have expressed such desire openly to Zero but at least to herself … meaning to have a similar thought about it. But she hasn’t.

    juliet wrote: But where are Yuuki's inner thoughts and dialogues? How is it that the two men exist in her as in the first arc but with different roles? that of the friend/that of the loved one. I do not see the great dinstiction and after so many chapters there should be a different approach to Zeki if Hino wishes to escape the friendship state.
    .
    .
    The main fact is exactly as you state it; the change. Even if we adopt Zeki's perspecive thus we believe that Yuuki has romantic feelings for Zero where is the change to her? inside her? something that tell us "LOVE" as Yuuki experiences love thus her feelings for Zero (no matter how she expresses them) have to be higher than the feelings that we have seen her expressing for Kaname (see scans) in order Zeki to rise. How is it possible for Hino to create a subtle love that will surpass Yume consciously if Hino does not create the equivalent or even higher pathos and desire?

    Exactly … Where is the change from when Yuuki was chibi till now towards Zero???

    And also I’m not accepting the excuse that she doesn’t want to admit neither to herself cuz such desire is so strong that no one can ignore or suppress! Zero couldn't, Kaname couldn't etc etc...

    And I’ll back up my words by using again Yuuki’s statement >>>

    “What are you saying? You want what? If you want you can eat ALL OF HIM. Isn’t that what YOU WANT? If you don’t devour what you desire you’ll be driven insane. I’m still so far, I can’t even think of saying we’re equal. But the vampire inside of me doesn’t care … THIS DESIRE IS SO PURE IT CAN’T BE HIDDEN…” >>> (chap. 66<<< meaning that is AFTER the one chunk of my heart statement and few hours just before her separation with Kaname!)

    This desire is so pure it can be hidden!!!! So if she had romantic feelings for Zero which moreover suppresses for soooooo long, how can hide them from herself??? Especially now that she is a vampire!? Shocked
    Apparently if that was the case she couldn’t control herself and especially having the “object of her desire” to offer his blood. But we all saw how the bite gone …





    "... I want to fall down with you to the very farthest depths ... taint me too Kaname"



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    *wants to sneak under these bed sheets*
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    Re: Yuki's relationship with Zero (chapter 73-74)

    Post by Trinity on Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:59 pm

    I'm just going to ignore the debating and shizz and just reply to the topic at hand, Yuuki's relationship with Zero.

    There is nothing at all in these past few chapters, and especially since the second arc began, that show Yuukis feelings for Zero are "platonic". This would mean she sees it as nothing more than friendship, and has no desire for him.
    We know from what she has said to Kaname, on more than one occasion, that this is not the case.
    “Please help me... I really want Zero’s blood now. I... I’ve always suppressed my thirst.” - Yuuki Chap74/rough translation.
    Here she clearly states that she wants his blood.
    Then she says that his blood calmed her, the fact she only needed a small amount to feel so calm and was able to smile genuienly for the first time in so long shows that this small amount has satisfied her, this would also show that her feelings are not just that of a friend...or a sibling.
    The way I see it, Yuuki has feelings for Zero in a romantic sense but loving someone doesn't mean you will be with them. She may still be with Kaname in the end however Kaname is making himself a criminal and a target, therefore things are not looking good for him D: But even if something happens to him it still doesn't mean she will be with Zero.

    One thing that confuses me is despite reading the same manga some peoples oppinions on Yuuki's feelings for Zero are so conflicted XD We have the facts from the manga that tell us, more than once, that a part of her heart belongs to him and for anyone to say their heart/part of their heart belongs to someone is romantic, especially when you are confessing this with the upmost guilt to someone you are engaged to.

    Yuuki is still conflicted and I think the recent developments aren't going to help much, we know she is still determined to go after Kaname and I truely hope she will, although Kaname now threatening Kaien and telling him he is happy Kaien has taken Yuuki from his side are also puzzling but perhaps there is method in his madness lol xD

    Also I just want to say that Knightmares post on page 6 is win.
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    Re: Yuki's relationship with Zero (chapter 73-74)

    Post by sweetsolace on Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:03 am

    Trinity wrote:
    There is nothing at all in these past few chapters, and especially since the second arc began, that show Yuukis feelings for Zero are "platonic".

    there's nothing to say that its romance either, everything appears to be driven by Yuki wanting their past back.

    @nina
    My “problem” with Zeki reasoning is that isn’t based on the story traits and statements but in generalization and on interpretations of how they think that the story WILL go or should go. In most cases also they’re projecting the type of love that they prefer.

    My point is that the comparison should be made using the traits of the specific story in question, cuz not only there are different expressions of love but there are differences on the way every author wants to depict the love/romance into their manga.
    completely agree! cheers
    the reasoning is opinionated.
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    Re: Yuki's relationship with Zero (chapter 73-74)

    Post by Trinity on Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:53 am

    My “problem” with Zeki reasoning is that isn’t based on the story traits and statements but in generalization and on interpretations of how they think that the story WILL go or should go. In most cases also they’re projecting the type of love that they prefer.

    My point is that the comparison should be made using the traits of the specific story in question, cuz not only there are different expressions of love but there are differences on the way every author wants to depict the love/romance into their manga.

    Or perhaps the issue is that alot of Zeki fans don't just take things at face value and know how to read between the lines and don't squee over one thing but look into how it was said, the characters feelings while saying it and also the response and their actions afterwards which may come to contradict what was said...
    Alot of discussion, especially in this manga, are based on theory and what to expect, it's one thing people love about manga, trying to figure out what is going to happen next after what has already happened.
    The love they prefer? Yes that may be the case but would that not also be the reason why some KanaYuu fans ship that? Because it's the relationship and the love they prefer? o.o I mean you're not going to ship something and then say, "Well I actually think that the love between character 1 and 3 is better but I might as well ship 1 and 2 together cos I feel like it" O.O

    there's nothing to say that its romance either, everything appears to be driven by Yuki wanting their past back.
    I guess you aren't remembering Kaname saying that their thirst can only be quenched by a loved one/their beloved? So for Yuuki to say she wants Zero's blood and even in chap 60 when she nearly bites him after drowning in his scent don't make you think she wants his blood? Okies.
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    Re: Yuki's relationship with Zero (chapter 73-74)

    Post by sweetsolace on Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:59 am

    Trinity wrote:
    I guess you aren't remembering Kaname saying that their thirst can only be quenched by a loved one/their beloved? So for Yuuki to say she wants Zero's blood and even in chap 60 when she nearly bites him after drowning in his scent don't make you think she wants his blood? Okies.
    she desires his blood. she doesn't say she loves him romantically. Any vampire who cares for someone can desire their blood as with their family and friends, this is not a romantic prooof. As I've been saying.

    and yes exactly by reading between the lines you risk failing to read the meaning of the story in general and that might actually mean the chances of inventing things that doesn't exist in reality is high.
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    Re: Yuki's relationship with Zero (chapter 73-74)

    Post by nina on Wed Jul 27, 2011 1:28 am

    Trinity wrote: We have the facts from the manga that tell us, more than once, that a part of her heart belongs to him

    Ofc … the question is IF Zero hadn’t declared war and said that they are enemies would she have the same problem? Cuz all that she says is that she wants to restore their previous relation<<< the attachment that she can’t cut off … Were they ever lovers; in which manga?

    And a small reminder which conveniently most Zeki are forgetting … The infamous phrase had been said from Yuuki PRIOR drinks from Kaname by using her fangs.
    Kaname: “…But at any rate seems like you remembered how to use your fangs”

    http://www.mangareader.net/104-2179-28/vampire-knight/chapter-51.html

    Ergo until then she hadn’t use her fangs to receive blood properly …

    I think by now should be undebatable the fact that a vampire should use the fangs in order not only to satisfy the thirst but apparently not driving nuts >>> Yuuki’s state for the first 6 months in the mansion.

    So after she started to use her fangs and received Kaname’s blood, there was no complaint from Yuuki. Therefore we don’t know if she was fully or partly satisfied from Kaname’s blood and I mean emotionally cuz obviously her need for food was covered.

    Also in the last chapter she stated that she NEVER thought of taking Zero’s blood … so IF she was IN LOVE with him according on VK’s traits she should constantly thinking about it cuz that’s the way vampires expressing their EROS/PATHOS.

    Another Zeki argument which I’ll use to back up my words … you supported that Zero’s thirst fits were originated from his desire for Yuuki’s blood? Why the same trait should not apply to Yuuki as well?? Where her thirst fits are; AFTER she drank from Kaname using her fangs???

    Then she says that his blood calmed her, the fact she only needed a small amount to feel so calm and was able to smile genuienly for the first time in so long shows that this small amount has satisfied her, this would also show that her feelings are not just that of a friend...or a sibling.

    You are wrong on that … the blood of a beloved person (aside the type of love) is always more satisfactory … siblings are exchanging their blood >>> see Shiki’s mother case lol.

    Again she was thirsty/hungry, her hunger was shown all over her face, according to Zero’s words and hinted from the scene with Yori … so; she needed blood to calm ONLY her hunger>>food. IF wasn’t that the case then a bit of his blood wouldn’t be enough … especially with so “intense suppressed feelings” for sooo long Razz as the story shows >> a vampire IN LOVE wants to devour the person that is in love with to the very limits of her/his life …

    especially when you are confessing this with the upmost guilt to someone you are engaged to

    And I’ll reverse the question … Where is her guilt now after she drank the blood from the other guy she supposedly is in love with? Doesn’t that mean that she just committed infidelity IF her action was driven from eros; IF she felt completely satisfied emotionally from Zero’s blood?

    Or perhaps the issue is that alot of Zeki fans don't just take things at face value and know how to read between the lines

    *THUD* No comment …

    The love they prefer? Yes that may be the case but would that not also be the reason why some KanaYuu fans ship that? Because it's the relationship and the love they prefer?

    Nope … Yume are shipping Yume simply cuz EXISTS … were not fantasizing HOW it could be … we see it happening, viz do not exist ONLY into our fantasy and yes we LOVE IT…

    One thing that confuses me is despite reading the same manga some peoples oppinions on Yuuki's feelings for Zero are so conflicted XD

    At least we agree on something …






    "... I want to fall down with you to the very farthest depths ... taint me too Kaname"



    Spoiler:

    *wants to sneak under these bed sheets*
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    Re: Yuki's relationship with Zero (chapter 73-74)

    Post by Trinity on Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:26 am

    I think I'm being misunderstood on my "read between the lines" thing or used the wrong term trolol

    I'm meaning that well...the difference in Zeki is that it is alot more subtle, it's a relationship where we get small hints here and there that add up to something bigger than some may imagine but it's also things that people might not a. notice or b. see as relevant to their relationship, whereas those that do like the pairing will pick up on these little things. With KanaYuu/Yume we can see their relationship, it is so much more open and perhaps overwhelming in a way, it is the one true relationship we have seen. The difference in the pairings and their development as well is staggering IMO of course XD
    I know that everyone has differing oppinions and I do enjoy reading others Razz I just hate debating cos I have grown tired of it after debating for about 7 years in another fandom *hangs self*

    And I’ll reverse the question … Where is her guilt now after she drank the blood from the other guy she supposedly is in love with? Doesn’t that mean that she just committed infidelity IF her action was driven from eros; IF she felt completely satisfied emotionally from Zero’s blood?
    I'm not quite sure what you are trying to get at here o.o The thing she was most guilty about before drinking from him was because she didn't want to cause him pain and we seen a little into her thoughts last chapter as well when she remembered what Kaname had said about only needing her blood yet despite that she still went for the bite? haha sorry your question is so very confusing to me XD

    Tbh your post in general is confusing... you say I have said things,
    you supported that Zero’s thirst fits were originated from his desire for Yuuki’s blood?
    Which I didn't XD
    Also one of the reasons Yuuki wasn't using her fangs was because she was trying to suppress the Vampire side of her, the side she knew/thought Zero hated perhaps?...Although it does make me happy she has finally accepted herself and Zero has done the same it seems :3

    Ergo until then she hadn’t use her fangs to receive blood properly …
    http://www.mangareader.net/104-2162-18/vampire-knight/chapter-36.html

    Nope … Yume are shipping Yume simply cuz EXISTS … were not fantasizing HOW it could be … we see it happening, viz do not exist ONLY into our fantasy and yes we LOVE IT…
    Also Zeki does exist xD if it didn't no one would ship it... Both pairings exist, hence these "discussions".
    Spoiler:
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    Re: Yuki's relationship with Zero (chapter 73-74)

    Post by mariangie on Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:08 am

    As I see for now , Yuuki wants to return to things were before she became a pureblood vampire and Zero said she became her enemy . So a restart relationship with Zero implies Yuuki returning to be her best friend , confidant and relative figure . For a romantic relationship for them to happens , both need to ammend their broken ties before . Zero is so much stubborn to even allow Yuuki to see his love feelings for her when she bites him in this chapter . More , he only show her he keep her in his memories as the human Yuuki . A lot has to happen for even consider them a romantic couple yet .

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    Re: Yuki's relationship with Zero (chapter 73-74)

    Post by Howl4fun on Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:39 am

    Sweet: thanks for being so predictable, lmao. I just knew you would crack somewhere as staying nice towards a ZEKI deems impossible for you, even when it's completely unprovoked. wow. It's a good thing you can laugh at ZEKI now, we'll see how long that'll last Smile
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    Re: Yuki's relationship with Zero (chapter 73-74)

    Post by juliet on Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:04 am

    Howl4fun wrote:

    I just saw this now; yes of course there is, see at the scans how Yuuki cares and tenders young Zero still from being kids? how she pads him at the back, giving him courage and pledges that she will be his ally BEFORE all this LT issue arises...that's why I posted all of these scans...to highlight that the care and interest that Yuuki showed to Zero back there, that was purely friendship, in fact does not changes even when she is leaving with Kaname (saying that she does not want to be enemies), it's a stable attitude that characterizes Yuuki's nature and attitude from the first days that she saw Zero being in a mess and wanted to help him. Therefore it does not necessarily support love feelings...as we see her love feelings for Kaname and there is not contradicting to another. In fact it helps in the disctiction of the two frienship vs romantic love and how Yuuki expresses these feelings to each.



    Nice explaining from your POV, but this isn't an "evidence" as you call it. An evidence is something that can't be argued What.So.Ever. In other words; a fact. Zeki being platonic/one-sided or not is an opinion/interpretion/matter of viewpoint, whatever you like to call it, not a fact. How does Yuuki nurturing Zero as a kid, being his ally as a teen null the possibility of romantic feelings? O.o I don't mind if this is your opinion of it, but I hardly see how it can be considered an "evidence". This is what my original post was explaing, how love develops differently in different relationships. And being by each other's sides for four years, growing together, mutually caring and fighting for the other, sharing thoughts and fears and seeking comfort with one another, can very well lead to a possibility of love starting to grow somewhere, albeit slowly (for the couple) and ambiguisly (for us readers). That's my opinion of it, though not an evidence. As neither can you call yours.

    Again you keep saying how you don't see the love in zeki, it's not developed enough, it's "flat" etc. while for me it's the complete opposite. Which is mainly what I think we should just agree to disagree on. Hope I answered to what you wondered to.

    So I want to ask until which chapter do you accept that Yuuki's behavior indicates the friendship/caring attitude so that this period can be accepted as a fact/evidence of a friendship relatioship?






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