knightmare wrote: We're talking manga. Half the romance shoujo's wouldn't exist if the girls understood their feelings of love, the cliche is, they don't, they're either stupid or they have reason not to.
Hm … but I remember you vividly to discard the mangas’ cliché as concerning VK, as the importance of first kiss for example … Flexible viewpoints I shall say …
Not to mention that she had NO problem to understand HER feelings for Kaname. So her stupidity applies only for Zero’s case?
Yuuki’s stupidity isn’t questionable hahaha is there. But her stupidity was about to understand the feelings which have had Zero and Kaname for her not the other way around.
No she wasn't free to choose Zero, 47 was her finally understanding that he loved her all along, but her being a vampire meant she wasn't right for him. Before that she had no clue. Its not until 51 that she faces up to what she feels for Zero which leads to her belief that she needs Zero's blood to satisfy her thirst since she's can't be satisfied without her beloved's blood. its not simply that at that point in time, she's not satisfied, but that its Zero she concludes that she needs.
1. She was free to choose him prior her awakening. The fact that she didn’t know Zero’s feelings why should be an obstacle to fall in love? We’re not falling only for someone who has the same feelings for us … example Zero. He fell in love with her even if he knew that in her heart there was another man. So IMO your argument goes out of the window based on real life and on Vk as well. And as I said before according to your logic about how romance should start, she should already being in love with Zero based on their compatibility blah blah. So again your aspect it’s proven unbacked.
2. The fact that she was a vampire why should mean that she’s not right for him? Zero wasn’t a vampire himself? But the point of her wording was:
“I’m sorry Zero … I’m not the right person … I’m a vampire >> but the vampire is the real ME” >>> and she’s thinking Kaname cuz the vampire inside her knew pretty well with who was IN LOVE with, as we also saw later on. If Zero would have had any chance to be the chosen one that would be IF Yuuki was a human and that not because she loved Kaname less but because in her mind she and Kaname never could be together cuz of their difference. But again she chose to become a vampire in order to be able to be by the side of the man she was in love with …Hm …
3. She concludes that she needs Zero as what? She concludes that her attachment to Zero (which identify with her HUMANITY) doesn’t allow her to be fully satisfied but not that she needs Zero as a lover.
The fact that she wasn’t or thought that she wasn’t satisfied is based on two factors:
a) That she wasn’t using her fangs so either way her thirst was unquenched …
b) The fact that she was refusing to use her fangs is the indication that she didn’t accept her true nature completely… she refused to satisfy the vampire Yuuki for the reasons I said in my previous post. So since she accepted her real self and discards all the compunctions, which were holding her back, the satisfaction part was slowly resolved. No fits since then, until recently …
Well, no, she doesn't want to be with him forever. But yes, just still that this all implies its beyond friendship.
She doesn’t want him forever … then for how much? A few weekends would be enough? Haha …
Again if you want to look that her attachment is beyond friendship you are free to do it. But the fact remains that Hino has put along additional reasons which could explain or resolve her attachment in other ways as well. And IMO she already has started to resolve that issue by Yuuki’s decisions in the last chapters. The point is that cuz of her separation with Kaname we didn’t have the chance to see her resolution in action clearly … we have only her statements and a few actions/reactions from Yuuki. We shall see …
To be honest, I think the desire to devour is comes from loneliness and while its borne of love, it still has nothing to do with satisfaction.
yuuki in 51 associates the desire with loneliness and in 66 she's worried about the distance thats between her and kaname.
Mmm but you support that Yuuki is not in love with Kaname … Or Zero who expressed the same desire wasn’t in love with Yuuki but it was only infatuation? Plus there is no example in Vk where a mother or a father has expressed such desire for their child … So what kind of love could born such a desire?
Yes the thought “I want to devour all of him/her”, is born from love/eros but still is an indication that the vampire who expresses that wish isn’t satisfied yet for many reasons. The term of satisfaction isn’t only physically but emotionally as well. Yuuki was lonely cuz Kaname was away. Also she hadn’t taste his blood as she should have because she was holding her vampire self back. She was with Kaname but still in her mind that distance she had build was still there and as long she was refusing partly her true self she couldn’t be satisfied. That’s why I insist that the key in all her confusion is the fully acceptance of her true self (<< which in Yuuki’s case was expressed by refusing to use her fangs). She had the wish to devour Kaname because she didn’t let herself to actualize her wishes (<< to drink his blood using her fangs, the equality etc) … But is the evidence that there is love/eros/passion but there are also issues to be resolved …
What I mean is that Juri and Haruka for example could have the same wish in the first period of their relationship or before even being in a relationship, as an indication of their love but since they had a completed relationship they didn’t feel the same urge >> they were emotionally satisfied ... Yume wasn’t in that stage.
Zero expressed that urge because was about to lose his love meaning that this includes the loneliness that you mentioned but plus the fact that he could no longer have her blood to satisfied his feelings for her, not only his hunger for blood.
The same goes for Yuuki … she desired Kaname’s blood to the extent of devour him but she refused to take it properly and for Kaname when he expressed the same urge he was longing to taste Yuuki’s blood for so long (holding himself, suppressed his feelings).
In short such wish is the evidence that there is romantic love involved but why is expressed varies …
Rido >> rejection … so his needs/wants were never satisfied.
Zero >> loss of his love
Kaname >> longing for so long viz he suppressed his feelings …
Yuuki >> refusal … viz she didn’t allow her self to satisfy her needs/wants…
He doesn't mention satisfaction the reason to use her fangs, nor states that she needs to use her fangs when she brings up the issue herself to resolve it.
No he doesn’t mention satisfaction cuz at the time was more essential/urgency for Yuuki to use her fangs to tame her thirst in order to calm down her mind >>> she was driving nuts. The satisfaction comes later like an extra bonus if you like, when a vampire using its fangs.
"I'm willing to put aside everything else...until you become the person you wish to be. But this I won't allow...Yuki use your fangs to get blood...you are no longer a child.
I wonder why the beast within you craves my blood so much."
So, in the statement above, the reason Kaname gives above is that she can't go on not using her fangs because she is no longer a child. If there is anymore to it from that, a physical problem with an adult drinking like a child, its not stated. Vampire children don't actually drink blood, they absorb energy, so he is in fact stating it is childish behaviour to simply lick blood. And in the last statement, he wonders why she's so hungry for his blood, but he's not thinking of any connection to her fangs causing this
1. The fact that he was willing to let Yuuki all the time she needs for anything else EXCEPT from not using her fangs, is obvious he means that is essential. If you add the picture of Yuuki being in a state of madness you have the whole picture! Her thirst couldn’t be satisfied only by licking >>> driving nuts. Also after she received Kaname’s blood by her spoiled way she ends up biting herself! But after she bit Kaname no such incident.
So if she can’t satisfy her basic need how can be satisfied emotionally which is the next step?
2. Why he says that she can’t go on refusing to use her fangs? Why he says that she is no longer a child??? Again if you add on these statements the depictions of the chibi vampire inside her who says that she’s trying to crash it down you’ll have the whole picture.
3. Do you really need an exact statement to accept that??? And you are basing on what your conclusion that chibi vampires aren’t receiving blood but only energy??? Humans are receiving energy by food, vampires from what??? Apparently the human food isn’t enough for them …
What Yuuki means while saying I was taking my life force
from Kaname with the depiction of her kissing him on the mouth
??? What Kaname was giving to her CPR???
4. And what caused Kaname’s statement that her beast was craving for his blood since she obviously was taking blood by drops???
I rest my case here and I’ll let the readers to have their judgment over your arguments and mine…
The fact that Yuuki think she only needs a little blood in 74 to satisfy her to gain control, implies that how much blood she gets, isn't the issue.
Or … that is convenient for you such interpretation cuz really I don’t see any evidence/hint from the manga that supports your opinion … Please provide the scan or an existed example on which you based your idea …
But I think you mix-up two different things … the basic need for food/blood and the need to be satisfied a vampire emotionally. <<< There comes the quantity. If the need for blood is only for food then most likely a bit of blood is enough … Also any blood of a beloved person is enough to satisfy/tame the basic need for food but apparently not emotionally <<< that only the blood from the lover could do...
How we can distinguish the two satisfactions; from the desire/thoughts behind it… According to you Yuuki has already admitted to herself from chapter 51 that she wants/needs Zero’s blood, which simply means that all this time she should suppress her feelings and her craving for Zero’s blood. So where is her lust? Where is the thought that “I want to devour him????” Why a bit of his blood was enough? Why the moment she pierced with her fangs his neck was enough to cool down her mind???? Why Zero couldn’t get enough from her previously?"At that moment I bit into Zero's neck with my fangs, all of a sudden my head cooled down. I had just used my fangs to bite a person whom I had never intended to wish for his blood."
How you interpret the above ^^^ portion of Yuuki’s thoughts?
It is shown it is not necessary to drink actually blood:
- vampires have created blood tablets and are used instead of drinking blood
Instead from drinking HUMAN blood actually cuz is a delicacy for them. Where is stated that by using tabs they nullify their need for fresh blood? And why the tabs aren’t effective in Yuuki’s case? And don’t tell me that the reason for her hunger was her emotions for Zero cuz the scene with Yori says otherwise …
So what’s the reason behind? Cuz frankly I’m not convinced myself why her hunger was written all over her face … I still think that there is a hole in Yuuki’s state …
- purebloods sleep for hundreds and thousands of years, they need blood upon awakening, stronger the longer they sleep, but 50 years doesn't do much to them.
- the fanbook states vampires don't drink blood for sustenance. They drink blood because they want to. (I think they've just made assumption, which means they make stuff up in the fanbook)
But PBs when are too long in slumber disintegrates:
- Kaname was in a very incomplete state after his awakening and as he said he was longing to turn into ashes …
- Hanadagi was fine physically but according to Sara’s words he may need blood if he was totally drained.
- Isaya was fine as well and he also could control his hunger better.
a) Since they disintegrate even if that is very slowly, means that they need blood to sustain
b) The difference between the above cases is the time of their slumber. Kaname’s slumber was very long> Hana’s as it stated 100 years> Isaya’s 50 years.
Also the time-gap that they could hold on without blood is not definite … so I think that varies for many reasons …
So in my understanding what the fan book states/means, is that PBs and vampires do not need Human blood to sustain … they drink it cuz they want to, not because is necessary for their survival <<< and there comes the use of the tabs … Furthermore if we take under consideration when the tabs were developed supports my explanation. The NC was the one who developed further the tabs cuz they would be too near to the temptation >>> human blood from the DC. Kaname says that he was using the tabs (in early form) in order not to kill the human offer.
I don’t find any contradiction here between the fanbook and the story under that light.
- kaname injected himself with blood for an unspecified period
All the statements are related to vampires going mad with thirst, not mad because they don't use their fangs to get the blood. You're mixing the instrument they use and the medicine. Using the fangs as an instrument only makes the difference whether as to whether they are passive or active drinkers.
Kaname is a special case but I’ll use his case anyway for several conclusions.
1. He was taking blood from humans with syringes … what for; if as you stated above PBs doesn’t need blood to sustain? When the hooded-lady found him after he was cast away from the villagers (aka his source for blood) he was on the limits of faint. Also the hooded-woman says that this happened cuz he refused to use his fangs
to some volunteers willing to turn into vampires.
Now Kaname was forced to take blood from humans without using his fangs as long as he was at that village, cuz there was no other way or source for blood. His will not to harm any human being, was stronger than the “demon” of thirst. Kaname had tamed his wild nature that’s why I said he is a special case.
But when she offers her blood again she says >>> “drink and don’t tell me you forgot to use your fangs
Why she didn’t give him blood using a syringe?
Another point …
“You think that if you do that you’ll manage to fool the demon that thirst
is and be able to escape from endangering anyone with your fangs … you’re a fool
… there is no way you can do that for eternity …”
Also your POV do not answer to …
a) Why Yuuki was in that state >>>
>>> while she had taken blood by drops/licking >>>
According to you Yuuki should be fine as a passive drinker! Why she is hungry and on the edge of madness??? Why she end up biting herself?
b) Kaname clearly says (and in addition for what I support above for what he was meaning about the significance of using her fangs lol)
“Yuuki you must use your fangs to get blood for youself
… You are no longer a child
He obviously telling her that her state originated from her refusal to use her fangs (viz she can’t tame her hunger=fully quenched) plus that this procedure is used from children but she is no longer a child
c) Kaname: “Before I kept you locked up in the place where I slept >>>
>>> … until you learn how to satisfy your hunger on your own
… It’s ok Yuuki your biting has become much better
So really you can still deny the significance of the use of the fangs??? How different you can interpret that line???
He clearly says that in order to satisfy her hunger it was essential to use her fangs !!!!
And what Yuuki replies?? >>> “I guess I must seem like a child
So I’m not the one who mixes the instrument with the medicine … If you like I’ll use your terms … there are medicines which can only be received using syringes because otherwise have not the same results as treatment …
Definitely no proof Vampires do not go nuts without their beloved blood, as shown, Isaya is very sane. Shizuka was not actually insane (that was slander), she was angry and insane enough to kill Zero's parents because they killed her beloved, not because she couldn't drink his blood. Otherwise she spent 4 years with Ichiru and she was sane.
I said there are other outcomes beside madness >>>
a PB without his/her mate is a miserable creature and his/her fate is:
b) slumber >> which is a way of resignation from life
c) withdrawal from life …
Apparently Isaya belongs on the c. category and you/we do not know yet his entire life to come to conclusions …
But Rido turned to be mad cuz of his unquenchable love/lust/thirst.
Shizuka’s insanity was a slander prior lose her lover. Afterwards she lost it … The 4 years she spent with Ichirou do not prove that she was sane simply cuz her actions afterwards have proved otherwise from many aspects …
So there's as yet, still no connection between using your fangs as the only way to satisfy yourself with your beloved's blood.
And yet this has nothing to do with actual fangs and using them. Rido was talking metaphorically when refering to the fangs, as she would have had no actual physical fangs. As stated by Rido, specifically the issue was Yuuki awakening with her memories as a vampire, turning a dream into a nightmare. Rido says that she would have gone insane by injesting Kuran blood as a human and been better off as a mad human
Metaphorically???? Says who? You based again your interpretation on what???
Why his words “If you leave her, then those vicious fangs will start destroying her from inside” should be taken as a metaphor whereas Yuuki’s state when her spell started to break proves otherwise??? What difference would make if her memory turned back while she was a human, if that was the problem? If so a simple explanation would be enough … Do you think that her “madness” was only cuz of the unexplained memories???
If Rido, via Ichirou, had succeed to inject his blood to the human Yuuki prior she awakes as a vampire (<< meaning to be released her fangs, her powers etc) that would turn her crazy. The very proof of this is that Kaname followed the exact opposite procedure … he bit her in order to turn her and then he gave her his blood. Why????
Kaname: “Yuuki is ok now … try to awaken before you’ll be destroyed
He bites her first>>>
>>> her nature transforms >>
>>> and then he gives her HIS Kuran blood with the bloody kiss>>>
Rido: “Kaname chose to make her a vampire first
and let her awaken without any pain … Drinking Kurans blood as a human … for her to awaken like that it would have given her more pleasure
So where exactly are you basing your idea that she would remain a mad human IF Rido would have injected into her his blood? I’m basing my argument ON FACTS! You?
This ^^^^ is not enough to prove that Rido’s words were true???
with an extreme statement that she had to kill him instead, this measure of this level of response reflects the severeness of her desire, as she accepted it.
Your answer doesn’t prove that Kaname wasn’t cool about Yuuki’s confession though. Actually he used that extreme phrase to show her that whatever and IF she’ll tell him he would accept it. His statement doesn’t reflect how seriously he took Yuuki’s confession or that he believed her but that he wanted to unburden her from her guilt … Is quite different.
Sorry, "selfishly confessed a terrible thing to him". Regardless, Yuuki is still letting Kaname be misled (or so she thinks according to you) and never corrects it. She wouldn't need to be forgiven if she "cleared" things up. Because it is true, and her "selfish desire shouldn't be condoned".
She didn’t have the chance to do so … for me her thoughts that such statement was selfish, childish and a terrible thing along with her decision not to take blood from anyone else even if Kaname didn’t ask her to is enough acknowledgment that she was exaggerated or she was confused … When she thought that she wants blood we have a depiction of Kaname’s illusion, where he embrace Yuuki <<< this could be an indication that she was thinking from whom wants to take blood.
Plus everything that happened just before they parted or after …
Based on my interpretation, no. my interpretation is that she is with kaname cos she loves him (read: not *in* love), he's tasty and doesn't want to be alone as per 51 and she's following this through making a life with him. Her reasoning for Zero is that he doesn't love/want her and she has promised to run from him forever.
Haha … I know you don’t believe that she is IN love with Kaname … it’s obvious …
So all that Yuuki said thus far for Kaname was a “lie” or an outlet or a cover for her fear not to spent alone the eternity … But when she chose to become a vampire in order to be able to live beside the man she loved she had no such fear … Or Yuuki chose Kaname over Zero over a lie; cuz she knew what this would do to Zero. If so then she didn’t give a damn about Zero which is worse …
And all of that simply cuz an ambiguous statement for the one chunk of her heart… Mmm you know from chapter 51 have passed 23 chapters which contains Yuuki’s progression. Maybe you skipped them?
Really what a waste of time and panels from Hino I shall say not to mention the mock from her part to so many readers!
Oh and Yuuki said that she’ll run away to give a purpose to Zero to go on living … to give him a goal! Not because he rejected her haha really …
Yuuki chooses to then think he has no romantic feelings and chooses to pursue friendship without considering the impact on him? I don't really like thinking of Yuuki as such as character, not when she cares about not hurting Zero, who acknowledges when she's been selfish towards Kaname at least. But as a girl who thinks she can have both Kaname and Zero then, needing both of them, when Zero at least, thinks she only needs Kaname, thats again, selfish and thoughtless. She should want to ask him and at least ask if he doesn't need blood anymore, but right now she's over sensitive to him. Far more careful not to cross boundaries than she was when they were children, where she still bulldoze her "caring" onto him, instead she's following his lead on what he wants.
No … actually says that something is broken and they’re not allowed to return in the past, meaning being exactly as they were. So her resolution is to erase the past and start over from the moment they met for the first time.
I made already the comparison between the two starts in my previous post in order to show what Yuuki means in each case >>>
nina wrote: she wants to start anew from the beginning … from the moment she first met him as a child, meaning that in a way wants to “erase” their past and by this way to “erase” the hurt which brought the enemies’ status and the confession as well.
IMO her stance indicates rejection to his confession or else she would like to start over, not by erasing but by including … On the contrary in Kaname’s case she wanted to start over by including all that she learn for him >>>
“There is no way we can be separate like this … I can’t stand this … Let me go … He said that we’ll go through a long journey together… and after I thought I would be moving forward from now on with him. And this time I want him to engrave the time we have been spending together in his memories”
>>> she was ready to move forward with him and now that they are separately wishes for him to engrave all their time they spend together ... Why? Maybe cuz she doesn’t want to forget her or lost track?
So the difference between the two starts I think is pretty clear …
Your answer do not answer to my argument ... Where have gone all the above Yuuki’s feelings/decisions for her and Kaname? Vanished just because she found Zero? There are plenty indications showing that she still wants the same things…
I'm talking about treatment, the treatment of the relationship is mysterious and ermbraces ambiguity. Kaname is a mystery character, with mysterious plan and ambigious motivations. Yume's relationship couple are overly obvious, Yuuki's feelings are obvious and stated outright at the beginning, kaname's as well. Mirrors & butterfly wings btw aren't a mystery, the mirror is the same as any and all other images with hints in them.
Ambiguity and mystery are two different things … And whereas for Zeki relationship exist two at least explanations, so no mystery but fog, for the wings, mirrors and the key none so far … So the mystery applies to Yume and not to Zeki …
The foot being that they no longer are just enemies.
But she never wanted for them to be enemies … If this is your explanation then is Zero’s foot not Yuuki’s … He changed his stance not her …
well Eros is sexual love, though I can interpret what you're trying to get at. Well as they say, the course of true love never runs smooth.
The term eros distinguishes the love which can have several forms from the romantic love. And who said that Yume love runs smoothly? There were always obstacles not originated from their feelings for each other but mostly from the circumstances … Kaname had to watch her for afar and suppressing his feelings for so long and so Yuuki. Yuuki had so many issues to face until she’s ready to move forward with him (accept her nature=use her fangs, let the vampire grow=equality). And when she was, they separate …
but how is there no doubt? how do they differ from Zero and Yuuki? Most of the examples are primarily about defending and protecting the other characters, which Yuuki does repeatedly for Zero, Shizuka chose the path of least pain for Ichiru as she saw it, Shiki and Rima spend all their time together.
Even though Zero loves Yuuki, he is confused why Yuuki goes to such lengths for him when she doesn't have to care about him that much.
The only doubt is about Yuuki’s type of love for Zero …
- Zero he knows as we know, that was in love with her
- Shizuka wasn’t IN LOVE with Ichirou … she was IN LOVE with Zero (<< is stated in the fanbook as well). She loved Ichirou yes, but not romantically …
- Rima and Shiki are depicted as couple … so where is the ambiguity in their feelings?
Because Yuuki wouldn't tell Zero that she likes him but insist he sees her as a pet repeatedly.
Maybe she wouldn’t tell him but definitely she should thought of it … Then we could talk about tear heart and the resolution of the LT would be based on which man she loves more … Right now there is only one love and one ambiguity which could easily turned into clear friendship without a lot explanations … Whereas the other way around would be very difficult to be explained … Will see…
in any case you've denied simple statements like Zero being Yuuki's beloved and in her heart because you want to see "stronger" ones using words such as "like" and "love", but clarity like this will s.crew over the LT, until then, yuuki can sit happily in ambiguity land.
You’ve deny almost the whole manga except from Zeki moments … I think I have the right to deny something that I do not see … Ambiguity could perfectly exists just to be created the LT and to spicy it … Until it’s proved otherwise … Then you can tell me that I’m in denial if I still will say that there is nothing romantic …
Usually words “love” and “like” have more gravity than the ambiguity … At least in my world and I suspect for many people in this world who are using these words to express their true feelings … I can’t think any other way for Hino to depict eros visibly can you? Oh yes Yuuki’s feelings is only an infatuation. I don’t know an infatuation to remain for 10 years though
And nope … the LT wouldn’t be s.crewed if Yuuki was expressing her romantic feelings for Zero even in her thoughts. Actually that would be progression IF Hino would intent to change course or to show a progression towards romance …
Because its the beginning of their relationship and a very important moment. Starting over usually means going back to the beginning. Its not clear at all what yuuki is thinking, since there are other things going on, but perhaps as she's thinking she needs to start all over again in winning over Zero.
Based on what?
EDIT: Oh sweet I didn't see your post
I'll read it and I'll edited my post if I have to