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    Could Kaname be the antagonist?

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    Win-chan
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    Could Kaname be the antagonist?

    Post by Win-chan on Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:18 am

    First topic message reminder :

    Everyone's thinking it, I'm just saying it: Could Kaname be the story's antagonist? Here are my thoughts:

    He's always been very mysterious and has done things in the shadows without anyone knowing exactly what. I've never completely trusted him. He's extremely manipulative and very vague when people ask him questions. **SPOILER!!** And with these new chapters with him disappearing and going to kill purebloods, and randomly killing Aidou's dad, I'm starting to think even more that he could be the antagonist **spoilingness is over** I don't think he will end up being the antagonist because too many people love him and would be heartbroken if he was, but if he were to be, I think it would be something along these lines:

    Kaname will do ANYTHING for Yuuki if he thinks it's the best for her, even if she doesn't want him to do it, and even if it will end up hurting a ton of other people in her stead. I think that he would begin taking things to the extreme, thinking himself completely in the right. He'd say that he was doing it for Yuuki, to protect her. Or something along those lines. Then in the end, I think Zero or Yuuki will probably kill him, but I'm sure he would die a good person. He'll probably reconcile with everyone. Matsuri Hino wouldn't want him to die bad since so many people love him. She herself loves him! He is quite beautiful, after all.

    I think it could have something with his first love, the hooded girl, and how she sacrificed herself for the humans. Maybe he wants his revenge on the pureblood vampires, because they were the ones who made her have to make that choice...? But in all honesty, I think he won't be the antagonist simply because Hino's making it so obvious right now that he's doing some bad things, but since we don't have the whole story we can expect in the future a justification of his actions.


    Last edited by Win-chan on Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:47 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Could Kaname be the antagonist?

    Post by juliet on Fri Sep 02, 2011 4:09 pm

    [quote="sweetsolace"][quote="juliet"]


    That does not mean that he killed Aido-dono for that reason, but he took advantage of the timing to make it infront of them so he would earn time before Yuuki would follow him.

    If that was Kaname's purpose to kill aido-dono to serve as the shroud that would cover him as evil to the world, why aido-dono? so he does all that so Yuki would be forcibly taken under Kaien's care? if thats the case Kaname efficiently exploited Kaien's fatherly clingy tendencies, and used Aido-dono as sacrifice.

    [quote]

    No, that's what I said...see the quote above. I think that he had his own let's say reasons to kill Aido-dono, he then senses Yuuki and Kaien coming; there are two options either to do it without being seen or been witnessed. He chooses the second taking advantage of their presence to stop Yuuki from following him, because he knew Kaien's tendencies, and that's about it. He intends to leave Yuuki with kaien, at that specific scene and so he chooses that they shall witness the murder (which he could also had perfomed at another time -either right away or afterwards moving in the dark - but he seems to want them to see it, and so he awaits for them to arrive and perform the act).

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    Re: Could Kaname be the antagonist?

    Post by sweetsolace on Fri Sep 02, 2011 5:13 pm

    [quote="juliet"][quote="sweetsolace"][quote="juliet"]


    If that was Kaname's purpose to kill aido-dono to serve as the shroud that would cover him as evil to the world, why aido-dono? so he does all that so Yuki would be forcibly taken under Kaien's care? if thats the case Kaname efficiently exploited Kaien's fatherly clingy tendencies, and used Aido-dono as sacrifice.



    Yes, it is what you said. I just repeated it to show I agree. Razz

    I don't know about this "Kaname waits for the right timing", but it seems to be a sound reason to why Kaname killed Aido-dono, Razz I reallly cant see it another way, its either his death was deliberate, consented and real OR it was just a staged act and he's alive the question is HOW, and so far this questions are not really helping at all. Razz its possible its overloading with questions in the story now Razz I just hope its going to make sense when its explained
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    Re: Could Kaname be the antagonist?

    Post by Akaruisama on Fri Sep 02, 2011 6:06 pm

    [quote="juliet"][quote="sweetsolace"][quote="juliet"]


    If that was Kaname's purpose to kill aido-dono to serve as the shroud that would cover him as evil to the world, why aido-dono? so he does all that so Yuki would be forcibly taken under Kaien's care? if thats the case Kaname efficiently exploited Kaien's fatherly clingy tendencies, and used Aido-dono as sacrifice.






    I agree. Kaname wanted Yuuki to stop following him at this moment so he made her witness a murder of Aidou dono. I think he want he want Yuuki to make a choice, he want her to grow up, act on herself and finally decide to be with him forever. Maybe he wanted to show her what is his true nature. Yuuki has always seen him as gentle, noble and respectful because he had behaved like this in front of her. Though he knows that it is a lie, perhaps he want that she notice that he is not a gentle vampire, but a lord of vampire society who must be cruel to change the things there?
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    Re: Could Kaname be the antagonist?

    Post by shizza24 on Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:39 pm

    [quote="Akaruisama"][quote="juliet"][quote="sweetsolace"]


    I really want to think that there is a deeper reason to Kaname's actions than just making Yuuki see his other side... I mean he didn't have to go as far as killing Aidou's dad to prove to Yuuki that he is not as good a person she thought him to be. I think Kaname knows that something really bad is about to happen? Possibly to Yuuki? And he is doing all this to protect her? I mean the chances of his being the antagonist are pretty slim IMO....


    but then again... I might get hit for this but xP ... An evil Kaname would be soooooo EPICALLY BADASS!! xD xD xD he'd be one of those damn awesome villains that you just can't help but be drawn to xD you know maybe if it's later revealed that he was involved somehow in what happened to Zero's family or something like that, I'd totally be like Dang! Now that is some awesome evil badass dude!! xD And if only that's followed by an epic kaname vs zero battle!! xD xD xD

    In any case I would pick the evil badass awesome Kaname over the super-hero oni-sama kaname any day! xD

    too bad the chances of it actually happening are like nil xP
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    Re: Could Kaname be the antagonist?

    Post by KuranPrince on Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:06 pm

    shizza24 wrote:


    I really want to think that there is a deeper reason to Kaname's actions than just making Yuuki see his other side... I mean he didn't have to go as far as killing Aidou's dad to prove to Yuuki that he is not as good a person she thought him to be. I think Kaname knows that something really bad is about to happen? Possibly to Yuuki? And he is doing all this to protect her? I mean the chances of his being the antagonist are pretty slim IMO....


    but then again... I might get hit for this but xP ... An evil Kaname would be soooooo EPICALLY BADASS!! xD xD xD he'd be one of those damn awesome villains that you just can't help but be drawn to xD you know maybe if it's later revealed that he was involved somehow in what happened to Zero's family or something like that, I'd totally be like Dang! Now that is some awesome evil badass dude!! xD And if only that's followed by an epic kaname vs zero battle!! xD xD xD

    In any case I would pick the evil badass awesome Kaname over the super-hero oni-sama kaname any day! xD

    too bad the chances of it actually happening are like nil xP


    IMO, I don't think evil Kaname would be a bad-ass character. Even if he turns out to be bad, he wouldn't care about the human race... out of character, that is. He isn't the type of person who wants to follow the same antagonistic paths of Rido, Shizuka, former Hunter Association president... or even Sara. Just because the villagers persecute Kaname doesn't mean he'll become evil.

    However, I do have to agree with you, Shizza. Chances of Kaname becoming evil is 0%.
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    Re: Could Kaname be the antagonist?

    Post by Divine Rose on Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:14 pm

    Indeed Kaname becoming evil and the villain is 0%.

    He is one of the 3 main characters, who Hino said was needed for co-existence. I don't think him turning evil will help anybody and certainly not peace. Probably makes things worse and Zero's hatred of vampires to grow to where he wouldn't ever help bring peace. Zero's not wanting it now, but there is a chance that you can see. With Kaname turning evil, there is none.
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    Re: Could Kaname be the antagonist?

    Post by Knightmare on Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:25 pm

    ok, gonna be honest, only skimmed the last couple of post, but I get the feeling you all think that to be the antagonist, he's gotta be some moustache twirling villain.

    Kaname has 100% chance of being the antagonist.

    all that has to happen is for yuuki and kaname to disagree on kaname's plan and for them to be at odds. for yuuki to want to stop him and kaname to be willing to sacrifice everything except yuuki to get there (no one is gonna believe he'd sacrifice yuuki)

    plus, he's got "rido" influencing him. in the end, he can blame all his extremities on rido and be saved when they get rid of rido.

    i think kaname likes humans, but he doesn't care for vampires. so I think he's got a burn the world mentality, and he's happy to destroy as many vampires as it takes to wipe out trouble for yuuki. while yuuki doesn't want that, she doesn't want anyone to sacrifice others. and thats how you get an antagonist and protangonist.

    besides there's no one else to do it.
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    Re: Could Kaname be the antagonist?

    Post by SassyKnight on Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:22 am

    Yes I think that he would become the villain. Saying that he wanted to kill all purebloods is going completely against Kaien Cross's plan to coexist with vampires. I know that Kaname is just trying to protect Yuki, but he has this really dark side to him...It's hard to explain but I really think Kaname will become the next villian after Sara and all the other Purebloods are dead.
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    Re: Could Kaname be the antagonist?

    Post by nina on Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:31 am

    Shizza wrote: I mean the chances of his being the antagonist are pretty slim IMO....


    but then again... I might get hit for this but xP ... An evil Kaname would be soooooo EPICALLY BADASS!! xD xD xD he'd be one of those damn awesome villains that you just can't help but be drawn to xD you know maybe if it's later revealed that he was involved somehow in what happened to Zero's family or something like that, I'd totally be like Dang! Now that is some awesome evil badass dude!! xD And if only that's followed by an epic kaname vs zero battle!! xD xD xD

    In any case I would pick the evil badass awesome Kaname over the super-hero oni-sama kaname any day! xD

    too bad the chances of it actually happening are like nil xP

    Oh! With much pleasure I see from a Zeki fan to admit Kaname’s EPICNESS no matter what!!!!

    I guess Hino’s “worries” that Kaname might overshadow Zero proved justified in the end … *sigh* Razz

    knightmare wrote: Kaname has 100% chance of being the antagonist.

    all that has to happen is for yuuki and kaname to disagree on kaname's plan and for them to be at odds.

    Imagine though a Yuuki to run after the villain Kaname and declaring her unshakable love for him! “Taint me too Kaname … drag me to the farthest depths… I don’t mind even if you betray me … blah blah” haha
    What a HUGE slap that would be on Zeki supposedly potentiality! The clatter would be thunderous ROFL






    "... I want to fall down with you to the very farthest depths ... taint me too Kaname"



    Spoiler:

    *wants to sneak under these bed sheets*
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    Re: Could Kaname be the antagonist?

    Post by sweetsolace on Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:37 am

    Knightmare wrote:ok, gonna be honest, only skimmed the last couple of post, but I get the feeling you all think that to be the antagonist, he's gotta be some moustache twirling villain.

    Kaname has 100% chance of being the antagonist.

    all that has to happen is for yuuki and kaname to disagree on kaname's plan and for them to be at odds. for yuuki to want to stop him and kaname to be willing to sacrifice everything except yuuki to get there (no one is gonna believe he'd sacrifice yuuki)

    plus, he's got "rido" influencing him. in the end, he can blame all his extremities on rido and be saved when they get rid of rido.

    i think kaname likes humans, but he doesn't care for vampires. so I think he's got a burn the world mentality, and he's happy to destroy as many vampires as it takes to wipe out trouble for yuuki. while yuuki doesn't want that, she doesn't want anyone to sacrifice others. and thats how you get an antagonist and protangonist.

    besides there's no one else to do it.

    saying there's 100% CHANCE doesn't leave any room for error.

    Because Kaname's true plans are not yet shown, there's a possibility that he may actually turn out to be the hero. Like you said, no one else can do it, Zero and Yuki are crippled in their own way by assuming the roles impose on them, they are bound by law to obey it. Meanwhile Kaname is free to do what he wants---good or bad, remember that his actions are not restrained by anything and he can either steer in EITHER PATH.

    I think, though, that its natural for fans and even characters in vampire knight to assume that he does have a "burn the world" mentality especially when he's not saying anything except spreading those rumors and making himself look bad. Smile Its not surprising. But we will see... lol though I do not want to eat my words again so Im signing this as half chance/possibility he will turn hero. cheers

    @nina
    WELL SAID , I agree, as always! you always make my day cheers cheers
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    Re: Could Kaname be the antagonist?

    Post by shizza24 on Tue Nov 01, 2011 5:18 am

    nina wrote:
    Shizza wrote: I mean the chances of his being the antagonist are pretty slim IMO....


    but then again... I might get hit for this but xP ... An evil Kaname would be soooooo EPICALLY BADASS!! xD xD xD he'd be one of those damn awesome villains that you just can't help but be drawn to xD you know maybe if it's later revealed that he was involved somehow in what happened to Zero's family or something like that, I'd totally be like Dang! Now that is some awesome evil badass dude!! xD And if only that's followed by an epic kaname vs zero battle!! xD xD xD

    In any case I would pick the evil badass awesome Kaname over the super-hero oni-sama kaname any day! xD

    too bad the chances of it actually happening are like nil xP

    Oh! With much pleasure I see from a Zeki fan to admit Kaname’s EPICNESS no matter what!!!!

    I guess Hino’s “worries” that Kaname might overshadow Zero proved justified in the end … *sigh* Razz




    Well I never said I disliked Kaname.... I mean both guys are epic. The fact that I am a Zeki has nothing to do with my liking Kaname. It's just that I like Zero better. I was just saying that evil kaname would be much more epic than a good kaname lol xP
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    Re: Could Kaname be the antagonist?

    Post by caela on Tue Nov 01, 2011 5:19 am

    sweetsolace wrote:
    Knightmare wrote:ok, gonna be honest, only skimmed the last couple of post, but I get the feeling you all think that to be the antagonist, he's gotta be some moustache twirling villain.

    Kaname has 100% chance of being the antagonist.

    all that has to happen is for yuuki and kaname to disagree on kaname's plan and for them to be at odds. for yuuki to want to stop him and kaname to be willing to sacrifice everything except yuuki to get there (no one is gonna believe he'd sacrifice yuuki)

    plus, he's got "rido" influencing him. in the end, he can blame all his extremities on rido and be saved when they get rid of rido.

    i think kaname likes humans, but he doesn't care for vampires. so I think he's got a burn the world mentality, and he's happy to destroy as many vampires as it takes to wipe out trouble for yuuki. while yuuki doesn't want that, she doesn't want anyone to sacrifice others. and thats how you get an antagonist and protangonist.

    besides there's no one else to do it.

    saying there's 100% CHANCE doesn't leave any room for error.

    Because Kaname's true plans are not yet shown, there's a possibility that he may actually turn out to be the hero. Like you said, no one else can do it, Zero and Yuki are crippled in their own way by assuming the roles impose on them, they are bound by law to obey it. Meanwhile Kaname is free to do what he wants---good or bad, remember that his actions are not restrained by anything and he can either steer in EITHER PATH.

    I think, though, that its natural for fans and even characters in vampire knight to assume that he does have a "burn the world" mentality especially when he's not saying anything except spreading those rumors and making himself look bad. Smile Its not surprising. But we will see... lol though I do not want to eat my words again so Im signing this as half chance/possibility he will turn hero. cheers

    @nina
    WELL SAID , I agree, as always! you always make my day cheers cheers

    I agree...

    Right now it feels like we have three main characters and one mini bad guy.

    Sara is not interesting enough to be ultimate problem of VK: she only has her rampant lesbianism.... (poor Takuma...one year and no straight ladies) ...So....I am hoping Kaname steps up and fills the void.

    @Shizza, you said Kaname would make an EPIC evil villain, I agree.

    Also, Kaname looks HOT in black; the white night class uniform wasn't his color. And, like everyone else is saying, THERE IS NO ONE ELSE!!

    @nina: If Kaname goes evil and tries to destroy co-existance, IMO, Yuuki would choose co-existance over Kaname. There is a difference between tainting one's hands and submerging them in sin...

    My real hope is that there is someone else out there being evil. Personally, an evil and conflicted Kaname might be too much angst for me to take. Zero already has that covered. Maybe a betrayal? Any candidates?
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    Re: Could Kaname be the antagonist?

    Post by juliet on Tue Nov 01, 2011 10:12 am

    i think kaname likes humans, but he doesn't care for vampires. so I think he's got a burn the world mentality, and he's happy to destroy as many vampires as it takes to wipe out trouble for yuuki. while yuuki doesn't want that, she doesn't want anyone to sacrifice others. and thats how you get an antagonist and protangonist.

    M...either he likes vampires or humans, Kaname must have good reasons risking Yuuki's love because as he has stated, if he loses her he prefers death than living on his own> and he is so much afraid of this consequence now, I guess that highlights how much sinful his plan appears to his eyes and also how much he is afraid of such an ending. But that also highlights the necessity of his actions and I do not believe that it's "thin air"...

    Generally i agree with Solace, there are many "grey" areas there...and there is also his effort, his own effort to seem like a villain or an antagonist (I am not sure if the two terms collapse but anyway)....to the eyes of the vampire society, Yuuki, Kaien, Aido and this in a way cancels the possibility to be a villain> or why would he have to try so hard and commit Aido's dad murder in front of all of them?

    If he had wanted just to kill, Kaname would just kill and if his intentions were that bad why not try to hide them?
    What was his point with Touma outside of Isaya's house? why didn't he kill Touma and get over it?

    at the same time he could hide all these crimes and not risk Yuuki's love and finally he could be in peace that he has achieved everything with the minimum cost. Now I suppose that would make a true villain here but Kaname's ways just scream to loud the obvious.







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    Re: Could Kaname be the antagonist?

    Post by nina on Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:49 pm

    sweetsolace wrote: @nina
    WELL SAID , I agree, as always! you always make my day cheers cheers sLo_BigBearHug

    Thank you dear! sLo_BigBearHug I had a good laugh while reading and typing so I guess I passed my good mood to you too haha …


    caela wrote: Sara is not interesting enough to be ultimate problem of VK: she only has her rampant lesbianism.... (poor Takuma...one year and no straight ladies) ...So....I am hoping Kaname steps up and fills the void.

    Mmm … so Sara’s ultimate goal is to become the Queen of a lesbian world!?
    Maybe her tablets can also change the sexual orientation??? (lol kidding)

    Yagari though seems to have different worries > that an evil PB could change the entire world into slaves >>

    “If the PBs wished to … they would be the tyrant of not only vampires but also human beings” >> and the panel hinting Sara!
    http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/76/17

    But Kaname somehow fails to convince that he wants to turn the entire world into slaves i.e. to become a tyrant > the ultimate villain.

    I don’t know if there is another villain hidden behind the scenes but right now Sara accumulates all the characteristics of the evilness in VK world >>
    1. She has the twist ancient notion that humans are low lives and treats them as food and turning them into slaves.
    2. She has unfolded that her target is also the vampires since she is turning them into puppets with her tabs. And who knows, perhaps at some point she’ll order them to attack massively to humans. Lower vampires can’t turn humans into slaves but can perfectly kill them …
    3. She wants to be the Queen i.e. to dominate …
    4. She triggered conflicts among PBs by killing Ouri and waking Hanadagi … (remember Touma’s wording to Yuuki about the bloody scene that finally started to move after Ouri’s death…). So there is a possibility that she wants to be annihilated all the other PBs too… or at least she wants to be involved other PBs…

    So her plan is multilevel and right now seems to have the means to materialize it… We also do not know yet HOW she plans to “neutralise” Yuuki, get rid of Kaname and deal with the hunters since I suppose they won’t be pleased when they’ll find out about her tabs …
    Therefore I don’t know why she fails to convince that she could be a “proper villain” and Kaname should play that role?
    OR do I? ROFL …

    Juliet wrote: Generally i agree with Solace, there are many "grey" areas there...and there is also his effort, his own effort to seem like a villain or an antagonist (I am not sure if the two terms collapse but anyway)....to the eyes of the vampire society, Yuuki, Kaien, Aido and this in a way cancels the possibility to be a villain> or why would he have to try so hard and commit Aido's dad murder in front of all of them?

    If he had wanted just to kill, Kaname would just kill and if his intentions were that bad why not try to hide them?
    What was his point with Touma outside of Isaya's house? why didn't he kill Touma and get over it?

    at the same time he could hide all these crimes and not risk Yuuki's love and finally he could be in peace that he has achieved everything with the minimum cost. Now I suppose that would make a true villain here but Kaname's ways just scream to loud the obvious.

    Good questions … Why the extra effort to convince about his “evilness” also with lies if his actions are truly evil?

    Apparently though the “obvious” is somehow more attractive or convenient for a certain reason Razz





    "... I want to fall down with you to the very farthest depths ... taint me too Kaname"



    Spoiler:

    *wants to sneak under these bed sheets*
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    Re: Could Kaname be the antagonist?

    Post by caela on Wed Nov 02, 2011 8:09 am

    nina wrote:
    sweetsolace wrote: @nina
    WELL SAID , I agree, as always! you always make my day cheers cheers sLo_BigBearHug

    Thank you dear! sLo_BigBearHug I had a good laugh while reading and typing so I guess I passed my good mood to you too haha …


    caela wrote: Sara is not interesting enough to be ultimate problem of VK: she only has her rampant lesbianism.... (poor Takuma...one year and no straight ladies) ...So....I am hoping Kaname steps up and fills the void.

    Mmm … so Sara’s ultimate goal is to become the Queen of a lesbian world!?
    Maybe her tablets can also change the sexual orientation??? (lol kidding)

    Yagari though seems to have different worries > that an evil PB could change the entire world into slaves >>

    “If the PBs wished to … they would be the tyrant of not only vampires but also human beings” >> and the panel hinting Sara!
    http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/76/17

    But Kaname somehow fails to convince that he wants to turn the entire world into slaves i.e. to become a tyrant > the ultimate villain.

    I don’t know if there is another villain hidden behind the scenes but right now Sara accumulates all the characteristics of the evilness in VK world >>
    1. She has the twist ancient notion that humans are low lives and treats them as food and turning them into slaves.
    2. She has unfolded that her target is also the vampires since she is turning them into puppets with her tabs. And who knows, perhaps at some point she’ll order them to attack massively to humans. Lower vampires can’t turn humans into slaves but can perfectly kill them …
    3. She wants to be the Queen i.e. to dominate …
    4. She triggered conflicts among PBs by killing Ouri and waking Hanadagi … (remember Touma’s wording to Yuuki about the bloody scene that finally started to move after Ouri’s death…). So there is a possibility that she wants to be annihilated all the other PBs too… or at least she wants to be involved other PBs…

    So her plan is multilevel and right now seems to have the means to materialize it… We also do not know yet HOW she plans to “neutralise” Yuuki, get rid of Kaname and deal with the hunters since I suppose they won’t be pleased when they’ll find out about her tabs …
    Therefore I don’t know why she fails to convince that she could be a “proper villain” and Kaname should play that role?
    OR do I? ROFL …

    Juliet wrote: Generally i agree with Solace, there are many "grey" areas there...and there is also his effort, his own effort to seem like a villain or an antagonist (I am not sure if the two terms collapse but anyway)....to the eyes of the vampire society, Yuuki, Kaien, Aido and this in a way cancels the possibility to be a villain> or why would he have to try so hard and commit Aido's dad murder in front of all of them?

    If he had wanted just to kill, Kaname would just kill and if his intentions were that bad why not try to hide them?
    What was his point with Touma outside of Isaya's house? why didn't he kill Touma and get over it?

    at the same time he could hide all these crimes and not risk Yuuki's love and finally he could be in peace that he has achieved everything with the minimum cost. Now I suppose that would make a true villain here but Kaname's ways just scream to loud the obvious.

    Good questions … Why the extra effort to convince about his “evilness” also with lies if his actions are truly evil?

    Apparently though the “obvious” is somehow more attractive or convenient for a certain reason Razz

    @nina: Sorry, I meant to say that the reason I find Sara to be unsatisfactory as a bad guy is because Sara's character/story is not developed.

    Rido: rejected by the love of his life and kicked out of his family, he becomes a bad guy to get even. Falls in love with his niece, who looks like his first love, but said girl ends up being a part of his doom.

    Shizuka: tries to get revenge for her lover's death. While getting her revenge, she destroys the Kiryuu family and one of the Kiryuu sons is turned into a vampire by her, and said boy also vows revenge against her. The other Kiryuu son falls in love with Shizuka.

    Sara: bored and ambitious pureblood. Lesbian who likes to pretend she is young and to pretend she is Takuma's younger sister. Wants to be queen, but who knows the real reason that motivates her...

    Shizuka/Rido/Kaname are soooo much more interesting than Sara. (Please let there be a brand new bad guy, with some personality.....and real motivations...)

    (sorry if post makes no sense...super sleepy)
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    Re: Could Kaname be the antagonist?

    Post by thorn on Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:05 am

    @caela, You've got quite a few good points there.
    I'm rather confused on the whole villian thing.

    I feel it's between Kaname and Sara.
    Though I hate Sara because she's annoying with how she treats Takuma, she has the most "Devious" plans (which haven't been revealed to their full extent) other than Kanames (which also haven't been revealed to their full extent.) Plus Rido is attached to Kaname in a way.
    Oh the suspense is evil, I am dying to know what happens, and Hino just keeps dragging and DRAGGING THE STORY sFun_banghead2
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    Re: Could Kaname be the antagonist?

    Post by jayashree on Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:06 am

    I done think kaname is the antagonist because we already have Sara she is evil enough and kaname killing pure blood vampire does not means that he has become an infamous crimial he has his reasons and we all know kaname love to keep secrets to himself we just have to wait and see what will happen.

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    Re: Could Kaname be the antagonist?

    Post by craigwhidbee@yahoo.com on Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:56 pm

    i think kaname is the antagonist as well. he is too ok with useing people, even if for a so called good reason, often you can loose your way when going down that path. in time kaname will use the its for the best reason to excuse anything he does. i cant stand how he uses zero, it no wonder zero hates him, i mean who wants someone doing that too them. i think over time kaname will go down a path the yuki will not follow, no matter the reasons.
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    Re: Could Kaname be the antagonist?

    Post by Divine Rose on Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:27 pm

    craigwhidbee@yahoo.com wrote:i think kaname is the antagonist as well. he is too ok with useing people, even if for a so called good reason, often you can loose your way when going down that path. in time kaname will use the its for the best reason to excuse anything he does. i cant stand how he uses zero, it no wonder zero hates him, i mean who wants someone doing that too them. i think over time kaname will go down a path the yuki will not follow, no matter the reasons.

    First things first, Zero never made a fuss about Kaname "using" him. He went along with it because it was what he wanted to do. Also, Kaname gave Zero a lot of power and the reason why Zero is not dead. True, all of this was for the reason to protect Yuuki. But like Zero wouldn't have protected Yuuki on his own choice choice? Razz So, Zero made no fuss. And he didn't have the right. It was more like a deal between them, so to speak. Kaname kept Zero from dieing and gave him power in exchange for, with that power, to kill Rido and protect Yuuki. That's completely fair. Zero has no reason to hate Kaname for that. Zero agreed to kill Rido when he heard Rido would target Yuuki.

    I definitely don't think Kaname will lose his way going down his path. He seems to be doing something of utmost importance and making people hate him. And name one innocent person he killed/used. Aidou's father seemed pretty fine with Kaname "killing" him. There was a conversation between them that was kept from us. Kain and Ruka are helping Kaname with his plan. More proof that Kaname is working for the greater good.

    Well, you say Zero has a reason to hate Kaname? Well, actually Zero's hatred of Kaname is mainly because he is a pureblood vampire. Zero is racist. Kaname has more reason to hate Zero than Zero does Kaname actually. Zero started their hate relationship by attacking Kaname when he first saw him, because he was a PB vampire. Zero bit Yuuki maliciously and pointed a gun at her. Even if he knew Zero wouldn't shoot, seeing the one he loves have a weapon pointed at her, will make him hate Zero if he didn't already. I understand why Kaname hates Zero. Who would want to see someone do all that to the one they love?

    Kaname's intentions have always been good, for co-existence, and protecting Yuuki. He is not going to suddenly change and become the villain. Yuuki is staying my his side and believes in him.

    Also, Hino said all 3 are needed for co-existence. That includes Kaname. Him being the villain, will kill all chances for co-existence.
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    Re: Could Kaname be the antagonist?

    Post by emogirl4evr on Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:49 pm

    a what ?
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    Re: Could Kaname be the antagonist?

    Post by caela on Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:29 am

    @Divine Rose

    I agree that coexistance is the measure that we are judging Kaname....but

    to the vampire world: He destroyed the senate, killed his strongest supporter (Aido-dono) and then disappeared to kill other purebloods.

    Rima in chapter 75 saw this as a betrayal to the vampire world.

    To the Hunters: Yagari saw killing the entire Senate as a threat to coexistance as well, and Kaname's response to Yagari was interesting:

    Chapter 47:
    Yagari to Kaname: The senate was sure hateful....without them unnecessary conflict will arise...and it's all your fault, you--- [Yagari raises gun at Kaname]

    Kaname to Yagari: I do intend to take responsibility for my acts.

    ***************

    Kaname has left the vampire world without leadership for months (after Aido-dono's death) without an alternative government or system set-up. This power vacuum allowed Sara, our current bad guy, to gain power.

    ***************

    Nobody is saying that Kaname's intentions are evil BUT when endgame is finished, the question remains, will all the "sins" Kaname has committed be justified by the end result. There has to be a point when the body count will be too high. Also, is Kaname even looking for redemption? It does not look like that to me. Can Yuuki save him?

    Also, is there another ancestor pureblood out there who Kaname is fighting against without out knowledge?

    *************

    Until we know alot more, Kaname being the antagonist is still a possibility. (not my preferred option, but i doubt Hino-san cares for my preferences. I prefer having my bad guys having fun being evil, like Rido)

    Note: alot of the stuff I wrote was said earlier in the same thread by other people...
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    Re: Could Kaname be the antagonist?

    Post by nina on Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:01 pm

    @ Divine I agree with you. Well said! cheers

    caela wrote: to the vampire world: He destroyed the senate, killed his strongest supporter (Aido-dono) and then disappeared to kill other purebloods.
    - He wiped out the senate cuz it was a corrupted governance as it proven. They were a danger not only for Yuuki and humans but also for other vampires/PBs. And if you remember Yagari himself said to the NC that the senate would kill them for going against it >>
    Yagari: “Vampires who rebel against the senate are shunned by their families at best at worst they are killed.”
    http://www.mangareader.net/104-2173-10/vampire-knight/chapter-47.html

    So Kaname protected not only the “precious” future but also the lives of many vampires including the lives of his comrades and that’s noble if you ask me.

    - Aido-dono agreed with his death … the reason is still unknown. I guess there must be a meaning behind that scene which many of the ones who eagerly trying to deem Kaname as a villain conveniently forgetting to mention or take under consideration …

    Rima in chapter 75 saw this as a betrayal to the vampire world.

    - Rima also admitted that the senate abused its power …
    - Takuma, Ruka and Kain have a whole different opinion about Kaname and Rima have no idea of what Kaname is trying to achieve here. Not even Hanabusa has turned against Kaname despite the fact that he saw with his own eyes the killing of his father …
    So why Rima’s view should have more gravity or be more righteous than the views of people who know better Kaname as a person and probably know more about his plan huh?

    - According to Rima’s logic (and to the ones who believe that Rima is right) the HW should be also deemed as villain and traitor for her kind, no? IF Kaname is a villain by killing bad PBs as it’s hinted and betrayed his race then the HW was also a villain cuz it was her who pushed Kaname to kill back in the past and with her sacrifice gave to the humans the power to kill her own kind …
    So why I haven’t seen any of you to state that the HW was a villain huh?

    Probably because you aren’t running any danger from the HW to sink your ship…

    To the Hunters: Yagari saw killing the entire Senate as a threat to coexistance as well, and Kaname's response to Yagari was interesting:

    Chapter 47:
    Yagari to Kaname: The senate was sure hateful....without them unnecessary conflict will arise...and it's all your fault, you--- [Yagari raises gun at Kaname]

    Kaname to Yagari: I do intend to take responsibility for my acts.


    And he did … didn’t he? He tried the passed year to bring some balance in vampire society and eventually signed a new contract with the hunters. He showed that his intentions were pro-coexistence …

    On the other hand which is Yagari’s stance? He goes AGAINST Kaien who his ideology can’t be questioned right? Yagari and the rest of the hunters “suddenly” and gladly leaving a “dangerous” vampire and potentially villain to go on with his plans i.e. to kill ALL the PBs as they assume.

    So how all of these are pro-coexistence? According to this logic Yagari and the rest of them have highly potentials to be the next villains haha … Hmm and now that I think about it maybe Zero has greater potentials to become a villain/antagonist cuz:
    1. He is the strongest hunter and as many of his fans believe is at the same level with Kaname Razz
    2. His status i.e. his level-eness is still in question … He could turn into a berserk powerful beast at the end … couldn’t he?
    3. He never believed in the idea of co-existence … in fact he mocked this potentiality many times …
    4. His goal in this life as it seems thus far is to kill EVERY SINGLE PB …
    5. And last but not least … his hatred for Kaname is notorious … So why not according to the above reasons won’t be Zero the antagonist who will fight at the end with Kaname? And according to their past Kaname has shown that supports and believes in co-existence (in fact he is described as the CORE of coexistence) while Zero was ALWAYS against it … ???

    As you can see this logic has two sides >>

    Until we know alot more, Kaname being the antagonist is still a possibility.

    >> and Zero has also the probability of being the antagonist … Razz

    And just to make it clearer in order to avoid misunderstandings … I do not believe in this logic at all i.e. I do not believe that Kaname will be the antagonist and neither Zero … The three main charas as it is stated from the author are the KEY for the co-existence …





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    Re: Could Kaname be the antagonist?

    Post by caela on Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:17 pm

    nina wrote:@ Divine I agree with you. Well said! cheers

    caela wrote: to the vampire world: He destroyed the senate, killed his strongest supporter (Aido-dono) and then disappeared to kill other purebloods.
    - He wiped out the senate cuz it was a corrupted governance as it proven. They were a danger not only for Yuuki and humans but also for other vampires/PBs. And if you remember Yagari himself said to the NC that the senate would kill them for going against it >>
    Yagari: “Vampires who rebel against the senate are shunned by their families at best at worst they are killed.”
    http://www.mangareader.net/104-2173-10/vampire-knight/chapter-47.html

    So Kaname protected not only the “precious” future but also the lives of many vampires including the lives of his comrades and that’s noble if you ask me.

    - Aido-dono agreed with his death … the reason is still unknown. I guess there must be a meaning behind that scene which many of the ones who eagerly trying to deem Kaname as a villain conveniently forgetting to mention or take under consideration …

    Rima in chapter 75 saw this as a betrayal to the vampire world.


    - Rima also admitted that the senate abused its power …
    - Takuma, Ruka and Kain have a whole different opinion about Kaname and Rima have no idea of what Kaname is trying to achieve here. Not even Hanabusa has turned against Kaname despite the fact that he saw with his own eyes the killing of his father …
    So why Rima’s view should have more gravity or be more righteous than the views of people who know better Kaname as a person and probably know more about his plan huh?

    - According to Rima’s logic (and to the ones who believe that Rima is right) the HW should be also deemed as villain and traitor for her kind, no? IF Kaname is a villain by killing bad PBs as it’s hinted and betrayed his race then the HW was also a villain cuz it was her who pushed Kaname to kill back in the past and with her sacrifice gave to the humans the power to kill her own kind …
    So why I haven’t seen any of you to state that the HW was a villain huh?

    Probably because you aren’t running any danger from the HW to sink your ship…

    To the Hunters: Yagari saw killing the entire Senate as a threat to coexistance as well, and Kaname's response to Yagari was interesting:

    Chapter 47:
    Yagari to Kaname: The senate was sure hateful....without them unnecessary conflict will arise...and it's all your fault, you--- [Yagari raises gun at Kaname]

    Kaname to Yagari: I do intend to take responsibility for my acts.


    And he did … didn’t he? He tried the passed year to bring some balance in vampire society and eventually signed a new contract with the hunters. He showed that his intentions were pro-coexistence …

    On the other hand which is Yagari’s stance? He goes AGAINST Kaien who his ideology can’t be questioned right? Yagari and the rest of the hunters “suddenly” and gladly leaving a “dangerous” vampire and potentially villain to go on with his plans i.e. to kill ALL the PBs as they assume.

    So how all of these are pro-coexistence? According to this logic Yagari and the rest of them have highly potentials to be the next villains haha … Hmm and now that I think about it maybe Zero has greater potentials to become a villain/antagonist cuz:
    1. He is the strongest hunter and as many of his fans believe is at the same level with Kaname Razz
    2. His status i.e. his level-eness is still in question … He could turn into a berserk powerful beast at the end … couldn’t he?
    3. He never believed in the idea of co-existence … in fact he mocked this potentiality many times …
    4. His goal in this life as it seems thus far is to kill EVERY SINGLE PB …
    5. And last but not least … his hatred for Kaname is notorious … So why not according to the above reasons won’t be Zero the antagonist who will fight at the end with Kaname? And according to their past Kaname has shown that supports and believes in co-existence (in fact he is described as the CORE of coexistence) while Zero was ALWAYS against it … ???

    As you can see this logic has two sides >>

    Until we know alot more, Kaname being the antagonist is still a possibility.

    >> and Zero has also the probability of being the antagonist … Razz

    And just to make it clearer in order to avoid misunderstandings … I do not believe in this logic at all i.e. I do not believe that Kaname will be the antagonist and neither Zero … The three main charas as it is stated from the author are the KEY for the co-existence …

    Zero would have the potential to be the bad guy, but his personality has been always to react. Plot happens to Zero, and he never tried to control plot. Also, you know my personal opinion is that Kaname is the strongest vampire, which limits Zero's potential as the badguy....I guess he would need to pull a Sara and start making some Zero tablets...

    The main point for me in Kaname's bad guy potential is that there is no other candidates. In most everything else, he is not a good candidate.

    For me, Kaname's Rido/Yuuki nightmare, suggests that another badguy exists. Yuuki's covered eyes and dream death suggests a danger Yuuki is unaware of, so it probably is not Zero, Kaname or Sara.

    Side note: so far Kaname has not "taken responsibilty" for his acts. Usually, when I see that phrase, that means someone is admitting to a crime and is willingly going to jail. One year being with Yuuki is probably not punishment for Kaname. Kaname was hinting at something more.
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    Re: Could Kaname be the antagonist?

    Post by nina on Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:10 pm

    caela wrote: Zero would have the potential to be the bad guy, but his personality has been always to react. Plot happens to Zero, and he never tried to control plot. Also, you know my personal opinion is that Kaname is the strongest vampire, which limits Zero's potential as the badguy....I guess he would need to pull a Sara and start making some Zero tablets...

    And Kaname’s personality and moreover history i.e. actions are contradictory with this potentiality of being the bad guy … He with the contribution of the HW saved practically the human race from doom …

    Second Shizuka was a villain (even if she had in mind revenge) but as it proved she wasn’t at Kaname’s level.
    Third Rido was a villain but he also wasn’t at Kaname’s level despite the fact that Kaname couldn’t kill him cuz of their “bond” he easily blew him off while been a child …

    Fourth … the senate/Asato were villains but they weren’t at the same level as Kaname … however they succeeded to bring destruction and annihilate two peaceful and kind PBs > Yuuki’s parents among other evil things.

    So the potentiality of someone being a villain can’t be measured only by the raw power that may or may not posses …

    The main point for me in Kaname's bad guy potential is that there is no other candidates. In everything else, he is not a good candidate.

    As far as I know Sara currently fills that position. She may not have the same powers with Kaname BUT as we know she doesn’t go to confront Kaname face to face … she uses other means. Also thus far she has the exact same goals with the previous villains >> to be the ultimate ruler. So why she isn’t the candidate? Not to mention that as it seems Sara is left for the end to be dealt?

    The problem with this concept is that you (and I mean all of you who are searching for another villain) is that you have in mind that should be a big battle in the end between the ultimate villain (i.e. Kaname) with the good forces (i.e. Zero)

    In my mind the three charas will have a POSITIVE contribution in the main idea of coexistence hence the title of the keys … Which means for me that each from its position will fight against evilness … in a way they are gonna be at same side as it happened in the 1st arc as well …

    For me, Kaname's Rido/Yuuki nightmare, suggests that another badguy exists. Yuuki's covered eyes and dream death suggests a danger Yuuki is unaware of, so it probably is not Zero, Kaname or Sara.

    Why Sara isn’t a threat for Yuuki? She hasn’t said that she wishes to be Queen? Hasn’t she targeted Kaname? Hasn’t she said that her goal is to be left only ONE from the main trio in the end?

    I’m not excluding the possibility to exist another villain behind the scenes neither saying that the only danger here is Sara. Obviously Kaname’s plan is more complex which means he deals with many threats but this doesn’t mean also that Sara is a simple case. And I don’t mean her level of powers but her plan as a whole and her means to achieve her goals …

    From the official fanbook:

    “There are two notions regarding relationships with humans. One ONLY sees humans as FOOD, and the other wants coexistence with humans.”


    So as you can see the parties (good and evil) as describes the author are two from the ancient times till now and the core of their difference is the way they viewing humans.
    Based on the above disunion who belongs in the evil front? Kaname or Sara?

    Isn’t Sara the representative of this twisted notion and further more since she has turned against vampires as well with her tabs?

    Continue >>

    “The pro-senate faction (here we can add anyone who shares the same views with senate i.e. and Sara) considers Kaname Kuran to be trouble BECAUSE HE IS AT THE CORE OF PACIFISM.

    So why any author would like to turn its hero > the core of pacifism > the core/main idea of the story (pacifism/coexistence) into the ultimate villain?

    Also, you know my personal opinion is that Kaname is the strongest vampire, which limits Zero's potential as the badguy

    Another contradiction IMO in this logic … If Kaname turned to be the ultimate villain who’s gonna stop him? Who has the power since as you also said above he is the strongest PB i.e. the strongest creature … If so then that means that his evil plan at least will be actualized …

    And something last … Hino sensei in one of her recent statements has said for Kaname >> “Go for it Kaname” and it was after Kaname left Yuuki and started to unfold his plan … I find it strange for an author “cheering” for the ultimate villain … an amoralist main character in her story and not for Zero or Yuuki who according to this logic should be the good ones who will stop Kaname…

    Thus far I haven’t seen any solid reason/argument from the ones who support the idea of Kaname being the antagonist cuz the opinion that there is no other to be considered as villain is baseless according with the facts of the story … Not to mention again the transparent motive to deem Kaname as antagonist …

    Side note: so far Kaname has not "taken responsibilty" for his acts. Usually, when I see that phrase, that means someone is admitting to a crime and is willingly going to jail. One year being with Yuuki is probably not punishment for Kaname. Kaname was hinting at something more.

    Oh now you want to see Kaname in jail! Haha … then I guess Yuuki and Zero should join him cuz they both killed Rido … Zero ate his own brother (A HUMAN affraid ) and Yuuki had the intention/planning to wipe off innocent PBs with her artemis … rofl
    Maybe Kaien and Yagari too for the numerous vampires they have kill thus far...





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    Re: Could Kaname be the antagonist?

    Post by caela on Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:31 pm

    this is the short version because where I am, its morning....i'll come back with more later... i think...

    Kaname = does not have the right motivation to be the bad guy....probably not the next bad guy. To other characters in the story, like Rima (we were not given Aidou's opinion because of his loyalty and not Shiki's because not smart enough)Kaname is a threat to co-existence for the short-term (Long-term he will bring co-existance, the question is the cost)

    Sara = IMO won't last that long....Hino-san did not give enough backstory to Sara (not enough invest enough in characterization) to make us even care to hate Sara as a badguy. We had that pleasure with Rido and Shizuka.

    Zero = we do not know his objectives, but he does not know enough about VK (vampire history) nor does he have the right personality to be a badguy....does not have the mastermind personality. He is not a legitimate threat to the story. Also, I do not think he has the right motivation. IMO he can live without Yuuki....I do not see him becoming the next Rido. He is actually mentally healthier than both Kaname and Yuuki: Zero actually has friends (Kaito, Aidou) that he trusts with secrets and personal concerns (well, Aidou more than Kaito...weird).

    Why Sara cannot be the last villian: because Kaname can kill her at anytime.

    Why must there be another villian: what else can Kaname's nightmare point to? There must be another threat. Even if Rido was alive, the most he would do to Yuuki is sexual assault.

    Side note again: Kaname getting some sort of punishment does not exclude other characters from getting punishments. Yagari, Zero and the rest of the hunters right now are vulnerable, especially with the Trojan horse of Touma in the hunter's association.

    (Personally, I am arguing that Kaname is a potential villain because no one is agreeing with me that there is definitely another person behind the scenes. Until I get some agreement....)

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    Re: Could Kaname be the antagonist?

    Post by nina on Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:51 pm

    @caela I can’t continue a debate in which I provide arguments based on the story and the other party insists on a baseless personal idea of how the story should continue or bringing a human-ish morality as measure in a world totally different from the actual human world …

    caela wrote: Why Sara cannot be the last villian: because Kaname can kill her at anytime.

    So??? I’ll repeat myself … the previous villains were wiped out … does that make them less of villains?

    And from what I can understand our perception of the story is totally different … You and some others believe that the big threat should be or would be an individual with great powers … mine is that the “big threat”, which if will not change/destroyed the coexistence could never be reached, are these twisted notions >>
    - humans=food i.e. inferior expendable creatures
    - All the PBs are wretched creatures and have to be annihilated
    - PBs with their superior powers should be recognised as sacred and no one should kill/touch them.
    - That the vampire society can’t be ruled without the perception of the PB queen bee …
    - That isn’t a crime to kill vampires … etc

    All of the above are IMO the “big threat” and even if Sara could easily be finished off what makes you believe that the vampires, the hunters, the humans could then peacefully coexist?

    Sara represents all the twisted notions from the vampires’ side but are the vampires the only factor in this difficult equation viz an actualized coexistence? No … Or If Kaname is the antagonist and someone will kill him does that mean that all the problems will automatically cease to exist? No again …

    So that’s why even if Kaname can easily kill her won’t achieve his goal = a better and safer world not only for Yuuki but for vampires and humans in the end.
    Since we assume that this current arc will be the last one in my POV means that the author should provide the final solution to the problems that she highlighted through out her story as I described them above. In other words it can’t have the same resolution as the first arc i.e. a powerful villain which if will be destroyed and everything will take its place cuz it won’t …

    Sara is not the greater villain cuz of her powers but cuz her plan has brought on surface all the twisted notions from every party including the hunters and the humans this time … Kaname as we saw has allowed her to unfold it. Why? Because is he Sara’s ally as the hunters thought at the beginning? No … IMO he is using Sara’s plan as an opportunity to bring this big change in their world << the final resolution …

    Why must there be another villian: what else can Kaname's nightmare point to? There must be another threat. Even if Rido was alive, the most he would do to Yuuki is sexual assault.

    And how Kaname’s nightmare pinpoints that he is the antagonist?
    Kaname has said that he is afraid that Yuuki might throw her self into a lost cause i.e. sacrifice herself. Yuuki brought her self against Sara already by saying that she’ll stop her? Is it impossible that Yuuki will try to save lives; lives that Sara will endanger? And she doesn’t know all Sara’s crimes and intentions yet! Didn’t Touma attacked her cuz he believed that she’ll stop the bloody action that he loves? Isn’t she a target from day one?

    Aren’t all the above reasons enough for Kaname to be scared?

    (Personally, I am arguing that Kaname is a potential villain because no one is agreeing with me that there is definitely another person behind the scenes. Until I get some agreement....)

    Do you have hints that there is another villain behind the scenes? Bring it …
    If not the argument that you aren’t satisfied from Sara’s evilness is not enough to deem Kaname as the antagonist …
    Thus far the actions that haven’t addressed yet are the kidnaps and the auction of the human girl. So if Sara isn’t responsible for these it might exist another villain. But Sara could easily be the master mind for these actions as well…

    Also we don’t know why Kaname killed Hanadagi and Hio … what he prevented with these killings etc…

    And I ask a simple question … what Kaname being the ultimate villain will resolve? How it will contribute in peaceful coexistence which is the ultimate goal here … Will the hunters view the vampires different? Will the other PBs be nice? Will the vampires stop seeing humans as food? Will the humans stop wanting to explore and make use of vampires’ superiors abilities? What???
    Except of course than the contribution to a possible Zeki end by default … Razz






    "... I want to fall down with you to the very farthest depths ... taint me too Kaname"



    Spoiler:

    *wants to sneak under these bed sheets*

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    Re: Could Kaname be the antagonist?

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