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We and the Youtube

Poll

would you like to read a sequel of vk?or is hino thinking of writing one?
59% 59% [ 24 ]
27% 27% [ 11 ]
15% 15% [ 6 ]

Total Votes : 41

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    Do you think ZEKI is over?

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    sweetsolace
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    Do you think ZEKI is over?

    Post by sweetsolace on Thu Sep 15, 2011 1:52 pm

    Do you think ZEKI is over?

    Pretty much it drags a lot in terms of resolving whatever Yuki feels for Zero, and in this chapter 74 both of them admitted -indirectly- having moved on from their past
    Zero: There's nothing you would see in my blood, I have let go of my attachments to you and only every now and then it visits me ---means his feelings for her are either not that strong, he's lying but I doubt it since the blood does not lie after all, or he has simply moved on from her.
    Yuki: I never intended to take your blood, I only did because I've been restraining my hunger for so long and I have no choice ---means she's not interested in him romantically.

    In my opinion, when a pairing drags this much, its either the author is milking the LT benefits that ZEKI reaps from its loyal fans, or there's no romance to expect from ZEKI because in the first place there's none.

    What are your thoughts?
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    Re: Do you think ZEKI is over?

    Post by mariangie on Thu Sep 15, 2011 3:51 pm

    Do you think ZEKI is over?

    I think is not over yet . Of course this doesn't mean Zeki is the final pair . It's only means the LT will be prolongued a lot more . The resolution of this LT will be almost at the end of V. K. There are more things to happen before .

    I don't expect to see Yuuki's final choice between Zero and Kaname until she had to use the bracelet / tattoo spell over Zero . When she has to decide to fulfill her promise to Zero of killing him if he become a Level E . Or she could find a way to save him .

    I believe she would also had to make a similar choice about Kaname to kill him or save him before Yuuki could decide whose guy is the one for her .
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    Re: Do you think ZEKI is over?

    Post by Lisi on Thu Sep 15, 2011 6:59 pm

    Nooo, I don't think ZEKI is over.

    Did yuki like zero's blood?
    And is yuki clear about her feelings? is her thirst satisfied now?


    we don't know ^^
    I think yuki lied.
    she also could suck the blood from a other nightclass member. XD
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    Re: Do you think ZEKI is over?

    Post by sweetsolace on Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:36 pm

    I'm not too convinced about ZEKI
    None of them is currently fighting for each others love, and its been like this for more than 20 chapters. Yuki seems reluctant to interact with Zero and Zero does nothing or shows nothing to indicate he continues to love her. Moreover Yuki does not show she has romantic interests in him. Its more awkwardness and implied.

    Could it just be denial? Lies?

    The point is the manga is spending chapters to show this distance and awkwardness and when it has finally reached this chapter 74, an important landmark that is the bite scene, Yuki and Zero suddenly takes yet another step back by admitting they no longer think of each other that much. If there should be progress with their relationship that is leading towards romance, why does it feel like its lacking indications going there? All I see is that Yuki wants his friendship back, because they were once enemies.
    There was a cause for her to be awkward for him and it was either because he said he wants to be enemies with her or his love confession. And i see that she chooses to resolve his dislike for her first by saying she wants it back just like before, though as for her reaction to his confession remains very obscured for me because of the former reason that can remain as the other possibility, and not just his confession.

    The idea of love between them seems very far away for now, mostly because of Yuki's lack of indications for it. The desire that she shows and which is clear is her wanting his friendship back but she does not give any hint that she returns that love and is almost timid to approach any thoughts regarding Zero (such as his level E)

    If this is supposed to be romantic, it is not too optimistic in my opinion.
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    Re: Do you think ZEKI is over?

    Post by nina on Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:17 pm

    sweetsolace wrote: Do you think ZEKI is over?

    With one phrase … It might …
    You certainly pointed out the portions that could be the indications.
    And there are more signs which could pinpoint to that direction such as:

    1. The so long-awaited bite scene which ended up being a no-romantic one. As I have mentioned in the past the “magic” moment (viz Yuuki’s FIRST bite on Zero) gone with no utilization from the author for romance purposes ofc.

    2. Maria’s interest for Zero but mostly Zero’s “response” to her … he opened up to her, carried her by bridal-style and in short he has a different attitude towards her despite his dislike for vampires. So it could be an “exit” from the LT for Zero.

    3. Yuuki’s words/thoughts >>>
    - I want a BIT from your blood in order to do my job as a PB Kuran
    - The re-start point form the moment they first met as CHILDREN >>> so automatically left out Zero’s “confession”
    - I NEVER intended to wish for your blood etc



    4. The time factor … as the chapters passes and we are getting close to the end the space-time for Zeki development really is running out. And it might some fans to be interested only for the LT but there is a whole plot which should be explained >>> Kaname’s plan and the rest of his past, Sara’s plan, co-existence and YUME closure IF the Zeki would be the end game Razz
    So really I wonder where, how and when??? Imagine a whole manga full of Yume moments and declarations of their love with a Zeki end … O.o

    But the only problem with all of these signs is that are very recent … I mean we might not have the result (the end of Zeki) soon cuz Hino many times has thrown some hints which are addressed later on. And here I sort of agree with mariangie.
    I think the next chapters would be more focus in action. Therefore the romance probably will be postponed for later.

    However the seeds I think are planted …

    The point is the manga is spending chapters to show this distance and awkwardness and when it has finally reached this chapter 74, an important landmark that is the bite scene, Yuki and Zero suddenlytakes yet another step back by admitting they no longer think of each other that much. If there should be progress with their relationship that is leading towards romance, why does it feel like its lacking indications going there? All I see is that Yuki wants his friendship back, because they were once enemies.
    There was a cause for her to be awkward for him and it was either because he said he wants to be enemies with her or his love confession. And i see that she chooses to resolve his dislike for her first by saying she wants it back just like before, though as for her reaction to his confession remains very obscured for me because of the former reason that can remain as the other possibility, and not just his confession.

    The idea of love between them seems very far away for now, mostly because of Yuki's lack of indications for it. The desire that she shows and which is clear is her wanting his friendship back but she does not give any hint that she returns that love and is almost timid to approach any thoughts regarding Zero (such as his level E)

    If this is supposed to be romantic, it is not too optimistic in my opinion.

    Agreed! cheers bounce





    "... I want to fall down with you to the very farthest depths ... taint me too Kaname"



    Spoiler:

    *wants to sneak under these bed sheets*
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    sweetsolace
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    Re: Do you think ZEKI is over?

    Post by sweetsolace on Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:48 pm


    2. Maria’s interest for Zero but mostly Zero’s “response” to her
    … he opened up to her, carried her by bridal-style and in short he has a
    different attitude towards her despite his dislike for vampires. So it
    could be an “exit” from the LT for Zero.

    yes, and this happened before the bite scene. So could it be a prelude to mark that "exit"?
    The title of that chapter where Maria and Zero were titled "The relationship with Zero" so it felt like a hint there, something like "Maria was able to make him do that much even at an initial encounter, whereas Yuki couldn't and is even having problems"
    or it could be something else, such as Maria was the key to telling the readers that Zero doesn't feel betrayed by Yuki and was slowly coming to terms to resolving his issues one bit at a time instead of the LT.


    3. Yuuki’s words/thoughts >>>
    - I want a BIT from your blood in order to do my job as a PB Kuran
    - The re-start point form the moment they first met as CHILDREN >>> so automatically left out Zero’s “confession”
    - I NEVER intended to wish for your blood etc

    yes I agree this makes it difficult if not impossible to tell what Yuki really wants from Zero , but sinec she does say it--that she wants a restart back to the beginning--here she already tells what she wants. yet there's also a possibility for a lie there. but how much of a liar is Yuki? scratch and if she's confused, when was the last time she was confused? scratch


    4. The time factor … as the chapters passes and we are getting close
    to the end the space-time for Zeki development really is running out.
    And it might some fans to be interested only for the LT but there is a
    whole plot which should be explained >>> Kaname’s plan and the
    rest of his past, Sara’s plan, co-existence and YUME closure IF the Zeki
    would be the end game Razz
    So
    really I wonder where, how and when??? Imagine a whole manga full of
    Yume moments and declarations of their love with a Zeki end … O.o
    I perfectly agree with your thoughts I share this too. I think we all get the feeling that the story is about to close its curtains or is preparing for the grand battle or something, and imagine if ZEKI is just starting the prologue of their love story here. ...It just seems a bit late. And they haven't really worked on something solid before that, so if i opened my mind to the possibility they will be endgame, and all they did was remain in their positions and take steps back, how is this convincing? So zeki is endgame and it will just blow away all the yume developments while the rest of the plot is about to have a showdown doesnt seem too realistic....imo


    But the only problem with all of these signs is that are very recent
    … I mean we might not have the result (the end of Zeki) soon cuz Hino
    many times has thrown some hints which are addressed later on. And here I
    sort of agree with mariangie.
    I think the next chapters would be more focus in action. Therefore the romance probably will be postponed for later.
    there's always a possibility this might indicate something later on, just not now. maybe. maybe not. whether or not zeki is endgame will come by the end i agree
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    Re: Do you think ZEKI is over?

    Post by Anneliezz on Thu Sep 15, 2011 10:49 pm

    I don't agree

    maybe it's because i'm zeki, maybe not

    I mean, ofcourse they act awkward around each other, I mean damn do you remember the way they parted? Then they don't see each other for a whole year. I mean, it would be weird to start showing their love now. They have some serious issues they need to work out. This can only go awkward and stuff, considering the current situation.

    Honestly, I would be worried if it wasn't awkward. If they, after what happened, didn't act this way it would either mean 1. bad/unrealistic character design, or 2. it would mean they had a very flat relation before. So, i'm relieved their relation is starting to build up again in a very realistic manner.

    For their pervious conversation

    I think they were both lying.
    With Zero it's most obvious. We've seen him this entire 2nd arcade acting emotionless and numb. Towards Yuki the same. (I mean he did confess his feelings, and then she went too be with kaname, it would want to act as distant as possible) But remember the time when aido made a comment about yuuki, and if he were hime, he'd go get her and stuff.... He didn't react immediately, but a couple af chapters later ,he gets back to this, acting more emotional then the entire arcade (except for the ichiru-scene, but then he was alone)
    Furthermore, he continues to help yuuki, admits she hasn't changed (from the old yuuki, the one he loved), and so on..


    Yuuki, is more complicated, as the whole love-triangle thing hasn't been cleared out yet. so this would begoing back to the good old discussion again (does yuuki love zero). I don't intend to get into this, because it wil probably stay a discussion till the end of the series. What we can see , is that she cares. You can't deny that.



    To me their relationship is far from over. I don't mean they'll be the endgame. We never know. But then again, not being the endgame doesn't mean there aren't any feelings




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    Re: Do you think ZEKI is over?

    Post by caela on Fri Sep 16, 2011 12:55 am

    "I think we all get the feeling that the story is about to close its curtains or is preparing for the grand battle or something, and imagine if ZEKI is just starting the prologue of their love story here. ...It just seems a bit late."

    True endgame for all of VK is a LONG way off.

    *Kaname has ALOT of history to explain before he is not a total mystery. The last journey into his past shows nothing as to why he went for the long sleep in the first place: it was mostly his very early memories; long before he was a vampire king.

    *We still don't know Kaname's objectives. He is not going against Sara directly, so he probably has deeper motives than squishing the next megalomaniac pureblood. Also, his killing of Aido-dono is a major wrench to a simple explanation. It definitely was not a simple "you betrayed me, off with your head" murder.

    *We have not seen Zero as the Hunter Association president, which puts him as a political equal to Kaname. I'm not a yaoi fan but their hate/respect dynamic is more interesting than WHO Yuuki is going to have kids with. (well, because she hasn't lived up to her promise of being a major power player yet, maybe when she really learns how to fight with her scythe...)

    *the obligatory death of a mentor has not happened yet. I need a spectacular Kaien Cross death scene. Some blood, some dramatic overacting and some half helpful cryptic hints from the Chairman would make my day. Maybe next chapter...please Hino-san. Seriously, the sooner the Chairman dies, the sooner there will be an end to VK.

    *Takumi and Aido are now the heads of THE two major Vampire noble families but neither guy has claimed the leadership positions in their families yet. Both these families are polar opposites politically and that tension will potentially be the source of alot of plot. Kaname was a crazy smart guy to have both these bad boys in his Night Class.

    Back to the main point: plenty of story left, and as far as I understand it, Yuuki is still a virgin (chapter 65, she gets mad that Kaname saw her naked or close to it). The Kurans have not married yet...so...IF Zero and Yuuki want to be together, they still have a real shot.

    The juicier questions: (1)Does Yuuki want Zero (i.e. with honorable intentions) ?, (2) Does Zero still want Yuuki more than his hatred for purebloods?

    (1) One point that needs to be made is Yuuki could possibly want both Zero and Kaname, which makes her a not-so-good person, but this is a possibility. But to do any real convincing of a possible ZEKI ending, I would have to show some real evidence of her both liking Zero romantically and liking him more than she likes Kaname.

    Would go into those questions but then I'd just be doing nothing productive today. I'll leave it like this for now: There is plenty of time for Yuuki to choose Zero. He's not even going to die anytime soon due to all the pureblood he drank and I don't see the level E thing being a problem. For me to get into the other points, I'm going to need some red bull.


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    Re: Do you think ZEKI is over?

    Post by Divine Rose on Fri Sep 16, 2011 1:19 am

    sweetsolace wrote:I'm not too convinced about ZEKI
    None of them is currently fighting for each others love, and its been like this for more than 20 chapters. Yuki seems reluctant to interact with Zero and Zero does nothing or shows nothing to indicate he continues to love her. Moreover Yuki does not show she has romantic interests in him. Its more awkwardness and implied.

    Could it just be denial? Lies?

    The point is the manga is spending chapters to show this distance and awkwardness and when it has finally reached this chapter 74, an important landmark that is the bite scene, Yuki and Zero suddenly takes yet another step back by admitting they no longer think of each other that much. If there should be progress with their relationship that is leading towards romance, why does it feel like its lacking indications going there? All I see is that Yuki wants his friendship back, because they were once enemies.
    There was a cause for her to be awkward for him and it was either because he said he wants to be enemies with her or his love confession. And i see that she chooses to resolve his dislike for her first by saying she wants it back just like before, though as for her reaction to his confession remains very obscured for me because of the former reason that can remain as the other possibility, and not just his confession.

    The idea of love between them seems very far away for now, mostly because of Yuki's lack of indications for it. The desire that she shows and which is clear is her wanting his friendship back but she does not give any hint that she returns that love and is almost timid to approach any thoughts regarding Zero (such as his level E)

    If this is supposed to be romantic, it is not too optimistic in my opinion.

    Absolutely agree! cheers cheers cheers cheers

    It doesn't look too optimistic at all to me either. When seeing them together I get more of a really close friendship/sibling feeling between them. Hey, they have lived so long with each other and in the same house, they have barely been apart from each other until when Yuuki became a PB. Perhaps they have romantic feelings for each other, or perhaps the feelings are confused as that. You can't rule out that possibility especially considering their closeness in their past.

    There is no doubt in my mind that Yuuki's & Kaname's feelings for each other are romantic. It's very obvious. The declarations, and all the other developments just don't leave room to say otherwise.

    Also, if my memory serves correct, Yuuki held some jealousy for HW at least a little, right? Well, when Yuuki saw Zero come to the Moon Dorms, didn't she see Maria being carried by Zero? I think it would be hard to not. She immediately wondered why he was there and then questioning herself why she hid and thought some about Kaname as well as other things. Usually when you see one you have romantic feelings for, especially when you don't know the reason, hold someone you do naturally feel jealous. And I didn't see anything that suggested jealousy.

    So, yes, I think Zeki is over. And if Zeki going to be the endgame, there is going to have to be a LOT of development for it to past Yume and it's development, to justify it, in my opinion.
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    Bite Scene chapter 73-74, no love developed for a reason

    Post by caela on Fri Sep 16, 2011 5:33 am

    This bite scene between Yuuki and Zero has nothing to do with romance for a reason. Zero has only experienced being bitten previously by Shizuka Hio, and both those instances were essentially rape and murder scenes (Shizuka even showed physical attraction towards Zero the second time around). The fact that Zero was willing to let Yuuki take his blood from his neck IS SIGNIFICANT because he is actually allowing someone to bite him and HE WASN'T TRAUMATIZED afterwards.

    No one should have been expecting a romantic development from that scene. I don't imagine rape victims enjoy sex after the fact. This is a step up for Zero because he is showing recovery from those terrible experiences.

    Yuuki repeated Zero's conditions for the bite to Zero, ("I'm doing this so that I can be a proper pureblood, this is for the night class, etc") very carefully, like she was when Yuuki was first caring for the chibi victim Zero five years prior right after Shizuka killed his family (" can I touch you, can I take off your shirt") She might have sensed the vulnerability of Zero at that moment and treated him like you should treat a victim of shock: short directives with explanations plus asking and confirming permission, which gives control of the situation to the receiver.

    The significance that he was willing to let Yuuki take that bite is because he is putting her needs first, which shows __________. (I'll leave this conclusion for you guys to make)

    If you read chapter 60, where Yuuki almost bit Zero, when she stops herself, his first response is to tell her that she escaped a death sentence. Clearly Zero is not being fair because he brutally bit her without her permission during chapter 3. He throws this death threat at her BECAUSE he is traumatized. There is a scene much earlier on where in the first arc, Yuuki playfully bites Zero, and she calls it payback for all the times he bit her...and then he tosses her out of the room. He was not just being cranky; being bitten is more than a touchy topic for him.

    Essentially, Anneliezz, I agree that Zeki still has a shot, and no one is arguing that Yuuki doesn't care about Zero. The question is how much does she care about him. Zeki has at least 50/50 odds. Will be back for more show and tell.
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    Re: Do you think ZEKI is over?

    Post by soulkeeper_pol on Fri Sep 16, 2011 4:24 pm

    I'm going to be very picky, because I lack sleep today... >.< So I wont go through most of the points.

    ...as far as I understand it, Yuuki is still a virgin (chapter 65, she gets mad that Kaname saw her naked or close to it). The Kurans have not married yet...so...IF Zero and Yuuki want to be together, they still have a real shot.
    I just found this a bit funny because the question that popped up on my mind went "What has Yuuki's virginity have anything to do with this?" Unless you are saying Zero wont have Yuuki if she's not a virgin. Well, no need to reply back to that, I just wanted to get the funny feeling out my chest. XD XD XD


    This bite scene between Yuuki and Zero has nothing to do with romance for a reason. Zero has only experienced being bitten previously by Shizuka Hio, and both those instances were essentially rape and murder scenes (Shizuka even showed physical attraction towards Zero the second time around). The fact that Zero was willing to let Yuuki take his blood from his neck IS SIGNIFICANT because he is actually allowing someone to bite him and HE WASN'T TRAUMATIZED afterwards.

    No one should have been expecting a romantic development from that scene. I don't imagine rape victims enjoy sex after the fact.
    Yes, this is not going to be a serious conversation at all, I just cant help it. Because from what I understand from this post is that Zero has leveled-up. He now allows himself to be raped by Yuuki. No need to reply to this as well. XD XD XD
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    Re: Do you think ZEKI is over?

    Post by sweetsolace on Fri Sep 16, 2011 4:54 pm

    Anneliezz wrote:
    Honestly, I would be worried if it wasn't awkward. If they, after
    what happened, didn't act this way it would either mean 1.
    bad/unrealistic character design, or 2. it would mean they had a very
    flat relation before. So, i'm relieved their relation is starting to
    build up again in a very realistic manner.
    Their awkwardness and distance stretched for 20 chapters and more. Its understandable they'd be feeling that way but more than that it seems like that awkwardness becomes their story instead of their supposed"love feelings". The manga emphasized so much on this feeling and on their distance that it is becoming center to their relationship rather than becoming the primary obstacle they have to deal with in order to progress forward. So it makes me question the author's motive here, why drag something as superficial as this trivial feelings IF she was planning to create a love conflict there that would rival Kaname's? Shouldn't she begin making the grounds for that love conflict, instead of this distance? Like she can put up Yuki reassessing her feelings for Zero, blushing when she thinks of him, feeling agitated, anything of that sort that she feels affected by Zero's confession, which might indicate she's feeling something too perhaps, but there was nothing definite to indicate that, if there was it was more like a half assed attempt instead of a real one, such as Yuki remembering Zero biting her and saying he only needs her blood when the thought of level E crosses her mind, which is understandable in another viewpoint since Level E does mean taking blood, and at that time she was worried about his lvl e condition which connected to what Zero said that time. But it is not enough to indicate she loves him in that way because she quickly throws the thought out as if it was a nuisance instead of showing more emotional sign (blushing, distressed etc)
    Zero being Kaname's rival in love for Yuki in this case doesn't make much sense to me, as there's few or nothing at all to indicate Yuki feels that way for him (except the awkwardness) and moreover Zero himself doesnt do anything except stare blankly into space and do what he always did in the first arc.
    the evidence is weak, it is not concrete enoughto hold water in face with the obstacles it should be dealing with.

    Anneliezz wrote:For their pervious conversation
    I think they were both lying.
    if so, how much more lie can they take? surely if they ARE indeed lying the whole time there's a point where that facade crashes down... we have encountered situations where this lie can drop and i believe its in chapter 74 with the bite where the blood does the telling. What does that reveal? What does that mean for ZEKI, another lie? how many more chapters of lies between them? for more than 20 chapters spent on lies, what does that tell of their relationship?

    Anneliezz wrote:
    With Zero it's most obvious. We've seen him this entire 2nd arcade
    acting emotionless and numb. Towards Yuki the same. (I mean he did
    confess his feelings, and then she went too be with kaname, it would
    want to act as distant as possible) But remember the time when aido made
    a comment about yuuki, and if he were hime, he'd go get her and
    stuff.... He didn't react immediately, but a couple af chapters later
    ,he gets back to this, acting more emotional then the entire arcade
    (except for the ichiru-scene, but then he was alone)
    Furthermore, he continues to help yuuki, admits she hasn't changed (from the old yuuki, the one he loved), and so on..
    his latest one, i believe, doesnt lie, as it was from his blood, and his blood told he does not feel that strong for yuki, as his foremost thought was about his coffin in the future. He might have feelings for her, but i believe he's also trying to move on and thats why it got buried somewhere that needs to take some searching to surface

    Anneliezz wrote:What we can see , is that she cares. You can't deny that.
    I don't deny it either. I think we can all agree to that. What Im not convinced is that she loves him romantically.

    divine rose wrote:
    Usually when you see one you have romantic feelings for, especially when
    you don't know the reason, hold someone you do naturally feel jealous.
    And I didn't see anything that suggested jealousy.
    I agree with everything you said and also this.
    When Yuki saw Maria and Zero she ducked but she didn't understand why she did it. IMO it was not even jealousy, as jealousy gives one feelings of anger towards the other person. And she didnt even knew what she felt. Some denial mechanism there. And so far as I can tell Yuki's not mad at Maria. not even angry.

    caela wrote:
    True endgame for all of VK is a LONG way off.
    but the battle is starting to begin and ZEKI is in negative square one with their recent revelations.
    they have a lot to catch up if they're planning on romance, IMO.

    *Kaname has ALOT of history to explain before he is not a total
    mystery. The last journey into his past shows nothing as to why he went
    for the long sleep in the first place: it was mostly his very early
    memories; long before he was a vampire king.
    you are correct. he has to explain more. and whatever his past is Yuki will accept him. Probably this will go against the fans who expect her to change her mind about him, because she hasnt changed her mind about him since the first time she saw him kill a vampire before her, and that was when she was 5 years old. Now she's 17 and she still believes in Kaname despite everything she witnessed from him: multiple murders, his women, his cruelty etc. LOL it will be hard to change her mind, im sure, but that's what fanfictions are there for


    *We still don't know Kaname's objectives. He is not going against
    Sara directly, so he probably has deeper motives than squishing the next
    megalomaniac pureblood. Also, his killing of Aido-dono is a major
    wrench to a simple explanation. It definitely was not a simple "you
    betrayed me, off with your head" murder.
    Good. I'm glad you understand something so simple. There's more to him that meets the eye, other than being a simple "murderer"


    *We have not seen Zero as the Hunter Association president,
    which puts him as a political equal to Kaname. I'm not a yaoi fan but
    their hate/respect dynamic is more interesting than WHO Yuuki is going
    to have kids with. (well, because she hasn't lived up to her promise of
    being a major power player yet, maybe when she really learns how to
    fight with her scythe...)
    its not sure if Zero will want to become the president in the future. He doesn't show much interest in it presently, so if he does end up in that position the way he is now, he's going to do it out of "obligation" not commitment or passion to do good. In short, he won't be a hero like everyone fantasizes he will become, rather just another hunter pres forced onto the job he doesnt feel anything for.
    As for the babies fathers its an opinion different for everyone. For me the pureblood+hunter baby doesnt do much difference except to do its part "exciting the fans with something new", it does not make sense that one baby and two leaders of races who have no conflict with each other in the past will vanquish such ingrained vampire traits and more. Yuki also cant do much with her artemis yet, much less lead a small flock of vampires and then she becomes queen of vampire races, lol.


    But to do any real convincing of a possible ZEKI ending, I would have to
    show some real evidence of her both liking Zero romantically and liking
    him more than she likes Kaname.
    you're right, the problem is IF she doesnt need to do that because she doesnt feel anything for zero except as a friend. their path seems littered with lies and denial but maybe this will result in something miraculous some point


    This bite scene between Yuuki and Zero has nothing to do with romance for a reason.
    Then why you just went through lengths to give the non-romantic explanation for that bite to make it a more romantic one? Like yuki resolving his trauma?

    And I don't believe this, as ZEKIs themselves were anticipating the bite saying "When she bites him she will know his feelings and then DECIDE" even some YUMEs believed in it. Fans who wanted a major show out of the bite are now blatantly in denial as nothing major happened, but the fact remains. That bite scene was important not just romantically but plot wise, as most fans speculated about it massively before it actually arrived.

    The fact that Zero was willing to let Yuuki take his blood from his
    neck IS SIGNIFICANT because he is actually allowing someone to bite him
    and HE WASN'T TRAUMATIZED afterwards.
    he is a very calm traumatized person then.
    Yuki just grabbed him for the bite and he barely had any reaction. A person with deep scars would at least flinch. He was very relax like he was listening to some calming music filtering inside his head while Yuki was also relax whispering him "Can I bite you to do my duties as Kuran?" The images in his blood also look relaxed. After the bite it seemed like Zero just finished taking a shower and was refreshed rather than stunned after reliving the experiences of his "supposed" traumatic bite.


    This is a step up for Zero because he is showing recovery from those terrible experiences.
    recovery? you mean when Zero approved Kaname killing purebloods?

    He was not just being cranky; being bitten is more than a touchy topic for him.
    Zero hates anything that has fangs. Anything related to fangs which is biting would make him snap.
    I believe something more compelling than his personal hatred drove Zero to decide to give his blood to Yuki, and part of it was he cares what will happen to her if she didn't. But it was not enough to make him forget his hatred, as he still wanted to kill vampires. Hence letting Yuki bite him was thru a force of circumstances rather than emotional.

    but since I was talking about the meaning of that bite, I still believe the bite just made it more clearer what Yuki and Zero has been thinking about each other recently.

    soulkeeper_pol wrote:
    Because from what I understand from this post is that Zero has leveled-up. He now allows himself to be raped by Yuuki.
    haha yes it does look that way. Yuki probably does the raping better than Shizuka, Razz she caused less trauma when she did it gently and only took a little.
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    Re: Do you think ZEKI is over?

    Post by aya-chan on Fri Sep 16, 2011 6:55 pm

    First, zeki never were a couple, so something which never existed can't finish. Razz

    I think the last chapter was a prelude for zeki to not happen. the bite has no romance in it, it was just a bussines between a hungry yuuki who can't handle her night class and a hunter who will have trouble if night class won't behave.

    Yuuki biting zero was something expected by vk readers and throught that bite we*readers* expected some clarification about yuuki's feelings for the silver hunter.
    If having no emotions from zero was something expected, yuuki wasn't like this. in the past, some readers thought once yuuki will drink zero's blood the love she has for him finally will poof from the deepest of her head/heart and realise her feelings for zero.
    but, again, it wasn't like this. after the bite yuuki realised she drank the blood of a man she never intended to wish for. and next day, yuuki tried to be friendly with zero, the same how they were in the past.

    Yuuki's behavior is a sign she want to rebound their frienship. previous the bite yuuki told zero I want to talk with you as before=as friends since they were just friends before.

    since zeki as couple can't happen, another vampire girl was brought into the picture: Maria, and they had already a bridal style moment. it is possible for hino to prepare another girl for zero since he can't have yuuki.

    *by the way, when yuuki was hurt, he carried her potato sac style. zero showed more consideration for maria than yuuki, even if he and yuuki shared a frienship in the past*

    This bite scene between Yuuki and Zero has nothing to do with romance for a reason. Zero has only experienced being bitten previously by Shizuka Hio, and both those instances were essentially rape and murder scenes (Shizuka even showed physical attraction towards Zero the second time around). The fact that Zero was willing to let Yuuki take his blood from his neck IS SIGNIFICANT because he is actually allowing someone to bite him and HE WASN'T TRAUMATIZED afterwards.

    No one should have been expecting a romantic development from that scene. I don't imagine rape victims enjoy sex after the fact.

    Damn you shizuka, not only you took zero's humanity, but you took his innocence too. no wonder he hate purebloods so much affraid poor boy cryyyyyyy
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    Re: Do you think ZEKI is over?

    Post by Divine Rose on Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:32 pm

    Wonderful posts Sweet & Aya! You covered everything! cheers cheers cheers cheers

    aya-chan wrote:First, zeki never were a couple, so something which never existed can't finish. Razz

    So true. Razz

    I think the last chapter was a prelude for zeki to not happen. the bite has no romance in it, it was just a bussines between a hungry yuuki who can't handle her night class and a hunter who will have trouble if night class won't behave.

    Yuuki biting zero was something expected by vk readers and throught that bite we*readers* expected some clarification about yuuki's feelings for the silver hunter.
    If having no emotions from zero was something expected, yuuki wasn't like this. in the past, some readers thought once yuuki will drink zero's blood the love she has for him finally will poof from the deepest of her head/heart and realise her feelings for zero.
    but, again, it wasn't like this. after the bite yuuki realised she drank the blood of a man she never intended to wish for. and next day, yuuki tried to be friendly with zero, the same how they were in the past.

    Yuuki's behavior is a sign she want to rebound their frienship. previous the bite yuuki told zero I want to talk with you as before=as friends since they were just friends before.

    I agree. It was all a step to turning back to friendship. cheers cheers

    since zeki as couple can't happen, another vampire girl was brought into the picture: Maria, and they had already a bridal style moment. it is possible for hino to prepare another girl for zero since he can't have yuuki.

    Indeed. This is another thing that says Zeki won't happen. A girl was brought in for Zero, not Kaname.

    *by the way, when yuuki was hurt, he carried her potato sac style. zero showed more consideration for maria than yuuki, even if he and yuuki shared a frienship in the past*

    Oh yes! Zero's treating Maria better! That's another hint of them becoming a couple. cheers

    This bite scene between Yuuki and Zero has nothing to do with romance for a reason. Zero has only experienced being bitten previously by Shizuka Hio, and both those instances were essentially rape and murder scenes (Shizuka even showed physical attraction towards Zero the second time around). The fact that Zero was willing to let Yuuki take his blood from his neck IS SIGNIFICANT because he is actually allowing someone to bite him and HE WASN'T TRAUMATIZED afterwards.

    No one should have been expecting a romantic development from that scene. I don't imagine rape victims enjoy sex after the fact.

    Damn you shizuka, not only you took zero's humanity, but you took his innocence too. no wonder he hate purebloods so much affraid poor boy cryyyyyyy

    Yes! Shocked Now we know the true reason why Zero hates PBs! Poor Zero!affraid No wonder he hates them so much. Poor boy. Sad
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    Re: Do you think ZEKI is over?

    Post by sweetsolace on Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:50 pm

    aya-chan wrote:First, zeki never were a couple, so something which never existed can't finish. Razz

    I think the last chapter was a prelude for zeki to not happen. the bite has no romance in it, it was just a bussines between a hungry yuuki who can't handle her night class and a hunter who will have trouble if night class won't behave.

    Yuuki biting zero was something expected by vk readers and throught that bite we*readers* expected some clarification about yuuki's feelings for the silver hunter.
    If having no emotions from zero was something expected, yuuki wasn't like this. in the past, some readers thought once yuuki will drink zero's blood the love she has for him finally will poof from the deepest of her head/heart and realise her feelings for zero.
    but, again, it wasn't like this. after the bite yuuki realised she drank the blood of a man she never intended to wish for. and next day, yuuki tried to be friendly with zero, the same how they were in the past.

    Yuuki's behavior is a sign she want to rebound their frienship. previous the bite yuuki told zero I want to talk with you as before=as friends since they were just friends before.

    since zeki as couple can't happen, another vampire girl was brought into the picture: Maria, and they had already a bridal style moment. it is possible for hino to prepare another girl for zero since he can't have yuuki.

    very well said aya-chan! couldn't agree more, you said everything!
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    Re: Do you think ZEKI is over?

    Post by caela on Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:36 am

    Alot of points were made. I am picking and choosing because I seem to be the only one arguing for ZEKI. A little tired but I have some red bull...

    @soulkeeper: Virginity is important. . . to ending the love triangle because it should be important to Yuuki. She is an idealistic character so once she has sex with someone, she will be ending the love triangle.

    Zero was NOT "RAPED" by Yuuki; he gave permission for the bite.

    @Sweetsolace: Zero did not say "I have no feelings for you Yuuki" He said that Yuuki would not SEE any feelings for her. Zero is not lying; he spent a year trying to suppress his feelings for her. No surprise that he could hide them for a few minutes.

    Yuuki is capable of (1) lies to people she cares for to protect their feelings, chapter 49 (kaname had to stop her cute love confession and say, stop lying, half your heart belongs to zero, and she defends herself by saying it was to protect Kaname's feelings)

    (2) not knowing what she wants or who she loves: During the third bite scene with Zero and Yuuki, right before the dance and before Shizuka gets killed, Yuuki asks Zero, "what does my blood taste like?" She is unaware of her own innnermost thoughts and needs Zero and Kaname to bite her and report to her her OWN FEELINGS!

    Yuuki is not a dumb person, she was the only one to figure out that Zero was suicidal and stop him from killing himself in some early chapter. She cares far more about other people and pays little attention to her own needs and wants. (Example: Shizuka gave two options for saving Zero from level E: kill Kaname, or give yourself to Shizuka. The implicit third choice would be to drop Zero and let him get to level E by not making a decision. Yuuki chose to put both guys before her own needs by volunteering herself to Shizuka.)

    Is Yuuki jealous of Maria for having some signs of affection from Zero (the bride carry scene)? Jealous...I don't know, Yuuki's too nice a girl to be hating in that way. Also, purebloods don't understand jealousy Smile

    But is Yuuki feeling awkward? Yeah!! A Yuuki without romantic feelings for Zero would continue walking and think, "yeah, Zero got game and I'm proud that things are working out and he is moving on. Time to daydream about Kaname." Real canon Yuuki ducks down and hides.

    Chapter 74 bite scene = negative step for Zeki: I disagree. Zero has issues with being bitten and he let Yuuki, Miss Pureblood princess, bite him. He hates purebloods but he made an expection for Yuuki (two steps up for Zero and Zeki) Yuuki insisted on checking out Zero's face and biting his neck = romantic interest. I wonder if Yuuki likes his eyes or the interesting hair color. Maybe both.

    Endgame for VK is near, no time left for Zeki: Alright, here I'm forced to bring out something I was keeping for myself. The biggest mystery in VK that must be resolved before ending it is....

    Why is Yuuki so important that eleven years ago, Rido killed her parents, ignored Kaname and was AIMING to drink 6 year old Yuuki? Three bigger purebloods (including a powerful ancestor) are better targets than a small pureblood if what you want is pureblood. Yuuki has some ability, power or value that is MORE IMPORTANT THAN BEING PUREBLOODED! I've got no clue, is she also a witch or something? Well, anyways, Zeki has plenty of time.

    Zero might not want to be Hunter Association President: I disagree again.
    in chapter 57
    Kaito: Zero, because of this and this you are too nuts to be the next pres
    Zero: Everything you accused me of being is not true.

    Zero is denying his instability to stay in the running for HA pres. Is he getting crazy? Kaname keeps the resin rose and Zero keeps the vamp gun in remembrance of Yuuki. I think Kaname is more sane; (I like Kaname, just not for Yuuki)

    Zero hates anything with fangs: well, except snakes i guess; he likes animals. He does have a special hatred for Purebloods (I reference all of my prior Shizuka rape argument)

    Chap 74 bite scene: Zero didn't flinch like a real traumatized person would.

    Zero roams the night regularly with a gun in the hopes of killing vampires so that he can calm down and sleep. He doesn't fit the profile of a flincher, maybe more of a Batman. The dude is just complex or maybe Hino-san didn't pull out her handy DSM-5 (or is it 4, i forget what I learned in psych class) to look up rape victim symptoms. I still say my rape theory fits.

    Aya-chan: Zeki never existed so something that never started can't finish.

    Tommorrow, someone will do the dishes in my sink. Nobody has started doing the dishes yet. Will the dishes get washed? Yes they will. Even if I am the one who has to do them. I hate dishes.

    Zero likes Maria more than Yuuki: Zero treated Maria exactly the same way Ichiru did. Ichiru is inside of Zero. Ichiru is the one who likes Maria, not Zero.

    Will return to Yuuki liking Zero more than Kaname. I deserve a nap.

    Thank you sweet solace for the fun thread and everyone else for giving my points real consideration. RESPECT















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    Re: Do you think ZEKI is over?

    Post by juliet on Sat Sep 17, 2011 12:07 pm

    caela wrote:Alot of points were made. I am picking and choosing because I seem to be the only one arguing for ZEKI. A little tired but I have some red bull...



    Ha, ha, Caela, welcome and may the redbull help you..(just kidding)..

    Well, Zeki in general is a tough case now, because as far as it concerns its development it lost a lot of ground due to the way that the plot moved.

    So let's start from the basic;

    Yes Zeki, as Aya said, was never a canon couple, not as Yume is. So its actually a potential couple vs a canon couple.

    So in reality Zeki is fighting there for recognition let's say. Before we even reach the LT arguement, there has to be a recognition first, because ambuiguity and obscure phrases that can even be interpreted as the fans choose to interpret them, are not providing a canon couple, no matter how much the fans believe in it.

    I think that sweet, nina, soul and forgive me if I forgot anyone have well exposed the irony or the great gap that exists in Zeki; instead of having a Zeki romance vs Yume romance, the way Hino promotes it, its like we are having an arguement whether what feelings Zero and Yuuki have or if they are true (due to ambiguity) vs a romance.

    And I think that the question the Yumes pose at this phase are logical;

    How Hino is going to serve us a romance that in reality has not even recognized by the main two characters (Yuuki-Zero) that are supposed to support it?

    A great gap there...and the development does not help/ads/ directs to the love-romance recognition...instead it even abstracts when Zero says that his memories of Yuuki have actually been reduced, when Yuuki reflects of her relationship with Zero when she met him and he was a kid (where were all of their love scenes?), when Yuuki asks Zero to talk how they used to be,and when they are set to establish a friendship from the start...

    That's how the plot develops for them, still we see no Zeki, no real Zeki vs Yume.

    And to answer the question of the thread, Zeki as a romance idea, I do not know if this is the end but it certainly diminuishes with Hino minimizing all feelings and memories of their potential love romance under the friendship request that now seems to be actually the obvious task for Yuuki-Zero.

    So its like "romance development" for Zeki to be in the pause section. After they figure out if they can be friends or even something more and they have settled the ambuiguity of their relationship, perhaps then, if that ambiguity stabilizes in romance and in well grounded-feelings to be able to speak about Zeki vs Yume. But right now it seems like a long way to go.

    The real question I think for Zeki fans is if Hino will get them there or swift totally the destination.









    I' ll show you a sweet dream next time
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    Re: Do you think ZEKI is over?

    Post by aya-chan on Sat Sep 17, 2011 7:04 pm

    caela wrote:Virginity is important. . . to ending the love triangle because it should be important to Yuuki. She is an idealistic character so once she has sex with someone, she will be ending the love triangle.

    Well, agree with you here, virginity is important for yuuki.
    Question: if yuuki had already sex with kaname, then a love triangle still exist?

    Zero was NOT "RAPED" by Yuuki;

    But he was by shizuka.
    Zero has only experienced being bitten previously by Shizuka Hio, and both those instances were essentially rape and murder scenes (Shizuka even showed physical attraction towards Zero the second time around).
    you said the instances zero experienced were rape and murder.
    Warning: vk readers, if you wonder if zero's still a virgin, find out he isn't. his first time was at his 12 and it was and forceful act. affraid

    Why is Yuuki so important that eleven years ago, Rido killed her parents, ignored Kaname and was AIMING to drink 6 year old Yuuki? Three bigger purebloods (including a powerful ancestor) are better targets than a small pureblood if what you want is pureblood. Yuuki has some ability, power or value that is MORE IMPORTANT THAN BEING PUREBLOODED! I've got no clue, is she also a witch or something? Well, anyways, Zeki has plenty of time.

    Rido was rejected by juuri and stealing haruka and juuri first child and sacrificing him he caused pain to the newly parents. wanting kaname, knowing he's not their real child and avoiding the real child, yuuki, doesn't fit with his phylosophy to cause pain to the couple. and plus, yuuki was more vurnerable than kaname.

    Kaname keeps the resin rose and Zero keeps the vamp gun in remembrance of Yuuki.

    kaname has the rose resin cause yuuki forgot to took it when she ran after kaname. till now doesn't exist signs of yuuki returning to kuran mansion.
    zero has the gun because before leaving cross academy yuuki returned the gun *in zero's room*

    Aya-chan: Zeki never existed so something that never started can't finish.

    Tommorrow, someone will do the dishes in my sink. Nobody has started doing the dishes yet. Will the dishes get washed? Yes they will. Even if I am the one who has to do them. I hate dishes.

    your logic is amusing. but let's keep your example: you can't finish washing your dishes if you don't start washing them. some steps are necessary for doing so.

    ps: i dissagree with others things you wrote, i am just too lazy to write more.
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    Re: Do you think ZEKI is over?

    Post by Bloodredhead on Sat Sep 17, 2011 7:26 pm

    Is Zeki over?

    Hmm…..i don’t think it’s fully over, the door to me has been closing, but it isn’t fully closed yet.

    We still have some ambiguity from Yuuki; she still hasn’t stated fully her attachment to Zero. Personally I don’t think she loves him in a lover’s sense, the way she has treated him and from her actions and words, I’m not convinced she has romantic feelings for him. To me it was always Zero in a one sided love really. Yuuki had her eyes fixed on Kaname; she was oblivious till it was completely obvious how Zero felt for her for most of those years they lived together. And to me Zero started closing the door at the end of first arc on any romantic relationship between them. He pointed his gun at her saying he would kill her, told her not to touch him when at the ball, and said last chapter he doesn’t think of her a lot anymore. I’m not saying Zero doesn’t have feelings for her as I believe he still does BUT he’s closed the door on having a relationship with her. He got hurt last time and he won’t ever go after her again in a romantic sense in my opinion. If Zeki ever was to happen it would have to be Yuuki going for it all out, though I don’t see this ever happening. Also I do wonder if his feelings for her are as strong as last arc. To me they don’t seem to be, though that’s just my personal interpretation.

    The restart Yuuki wishes to have with Zero is one on friendship, she still has her sight on Kaname as we have seen from her telling aidou she will go after him when she finishes doing things, her talk with takuma and her own personal thoughts. Yuuki cares for Zero in her own way but not romantically there isn’t any hard evidence that she loves him that way at all. Yuuki just wants her friend back, and who can blame her really as she was with him for four years and she supported him and he supported her, that’s what friends do.

    caela wrote:Zero has only experienced being bitten previously by Shizuka Hio, and both those instances were essentially rape and murder scenes (Shizuka even showed physical attraction towards Zero the second time around). The fact that Zero was willing to let Yuuki take his blood from his neck IS SIGNIFICANT because he is actually allowing someone to bite him and HE WASN'T TRAUMATIZED afterwards.

    I don't imagine rape victims enjoy sex after the fact. This is a step up for Zero because he is showing recovery from those terrible experiences.

    I don’t think comparing Zero to a rape victim is a fair comparison at all. They are to me completely different scenario’s. Yes both can bring about trauma but that’s as far as the comparison can go.

    With Zero’s trauma. Yes being bitten in that sort of scenario is bound to have effects on people, its natural. Yes Zero letting Yuuki bite from his neck is an improvement BUT the past still hangs a heavy dark cloud over him. He still has a long way to go before we can say he has ‘got over it’. His hatred for vampires still needs to be overcome; I don’t mean be all friendly with every vampire that walks by, but for him to give them a chance to show they aren’t bad instead of labelling all as bad just because of their species and not giving them the opportunity. He has made some tentative steps in this direction by him starting to accept Yuuki’s true nature and also I think he doesn’t mind Aidou to much or Maria. But he still has a way to go, it’s quite prejudice really this mentality. If Zero ever becomes HA president this is one thing that needs addressing.

    If we think about it a lot of the characters in VK have been through some sort of trauma and they are all dealing too, in their own ways, just like Zero does. The way he has dealt with it is his hatred, to me that isn’t the best way but that’s how he has dealt with it. But I think Zero’s still not recovered fully from his trauma, it’s still there and affects him even today.


    caela wrote:The significance that he was willing to let Yuuki take that bite is because he is putting her needs first, which shows __________. (I'll leave this conclusion for you guys to make)

    I don’t think anyone is denying he cares about her, but he has closed the door on a relationship with her. She’s Kaname’s in his mind and also with him getting hurt last arc he isn’t going to be getting down on one knee any time soon. Also Zero is a caring person underneath all his cold exterior, helping is second nature to him really, he’s a protector.

    caela wrote:Essentially, Anneliezz, I agree that Zeki still has a shot, and no one is arguing that Yuuki doesn't care about Zero. The question is how much does she care about him.

    Of course no-one can argue that Yuuki cares for zero he’s important to her. But how much does she care for him there are more signs that her feelings aren’t romantic, to those that are.

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    Re: Do you think ZEKI is over?

    Post by soulkeeper_pol on Sat Sep 17, 2011 7:37 pm

    @soulkeeper: Virginity is important. . . to ending the love triangle because it should be important to Yuuki. She is an idealistic character so once she has sex with someone, she will be ending the love triangle.
    I guess she wont accept Zero then, because Zero has already been raped. XD XD XD HAHAHA. Sorry but I just cant take this seriously.

    Zero was NOT "RAPED" by Yuuki; he gave permission for the bite
    Ah, I see. It was rape with consent.
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    Re: Do you think ZEKI is over?

    Post by Divine Rose on Sat Sep 17, 2011 8:08 pm

    Amazing posts Bloodredhead and Aya chan. I absoultely agree!

    sFun_hailbig sFun_hailbig sFun_hailbig

    aya-chan wrote:Well, agree with you here, virginity is important for yuuki.
    Question: if yuuki had already sex with kaname, then a love triangle still exist?

    I would say no if she had. Then for sure Zeki is over. Razz

    Warning: vk readers, if you wonder if zero's still a virgin, find out he isn't. his first time was at his 12 and it was and forceful act.

    WHAT!? affraid I had no idea! I thought Shizuka wasn't really bad, was just wanting revenge, and a tragic character. I had NO idea she did that! affraid affraid affraid

    Bloodredhead wrote:I don’t think comparing Zero to a rape victim is a fair comparison at all. They are to me completely different scenario’s. Yes both can bring about trauma but that’s as far as the comparison can go.

    I agree with you.

    soulkeeper_pol wrote:Ah, I see. It was rape with consent.

    Oh gosh! Rape with consent! Shocked Hahaha That just sounds so funny. rofl rofl rofl rofl
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    Re: Do you think ZEKI is over?

    Post by aya-chan on Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:16 pm

    Divine Rose wrote:WHAT!? affraid I had no idea! I thought Shizuka wasn't really bad, was just wanting revenge, and a tragic character. I had NO idea she did that! affraid affraid affraid

    I didn't know either. I thaught the same as you. I was surprised to find out zero was "raped"by shizuka affraid
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    Re: Do you think ZEKI is over?

    Post by Divine Rose on Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:18 pm

    aya-chan wrote:
    Divine Rose wrote:WHAT!? affraid I had no idea! I thought Shizuka wasn't really bad, was just wanting revenge, and a tragic character. I had NO idea she did that! affraid affraid affraid

    I didn't know either. I thaught the same as you. I was surprised to find out zero was "raped"by shizuka affraid

    You too? How did we miss this? Zero being "raped" then is huge! affraid


    Last edited by Divine Rose on Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Do you think ZEKI is over?

    Post by Bloodredhead on Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:37 pm

    uhm could we get off the topic of rape please it gives me shivers thinking about it and its no the nicest of topics. sorry for bing a prune.
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    Re: Do you think ZEKI is over?

    Post by Divine Rose on Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:41 pm

    Bloodredhead wrote:uhm could we get off the topic of rape please it gives me shivers thinking about it and its no the nicest of topics. sorry for bing a prune.

    That's fine. It does me as well. But for some reason not in this. Strange.

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    Re: Do you think ZEKI is over?

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