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would you like to read a sequel of vk?or is hino thinking of writing one?
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    Do you think ZEKI is over?

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    sweetsolace
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    Do you think ZEKI is over?

    Post by sweetsolace on Thu Sep 15, 2011 1:52 pm

    First topic message reminder :

    Do you think ZEKI is over?

    Pretty much it drags a lot in terms of resolving whatever Yuki feels for Zero, and in this chapter 74 both of them admitted -indirectly- having moved on from their past
    Zero: There's nothing you would see in my blood, I have let go of my attachments to you and only every now and then it visits me ---means his feelings for her are either not that strong, he's lying but I doubt it since the blood does not lie after all, or he has simply moved on from her.
    Yuki: I never intended to take your blood, I only did because I've been restraining my hunger for so long and I have no choice ---means she's not interested in him romantically.

    In my opinion, when a pairing drags this much, its either the author is milking the LT benefits that ZEKI reaps from its loyal fans, or there's no romance to expect from ZEKI because in the first place there's none.

    What are your thoughts?

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    Re: Do you think ZEKI is over?

    Post by Divine Rose on Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:41 pm

    Bloodredhead wrote:uhm could we get off the topic of rape please it gives me shivers thinking about it and its no the nicest of topics. sorry for bing a prune.

    That's fine. It does me as well. But for some reason not in this. Strange.
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    Re: Do you think ZEKI is over?

    Post by Kara on Sun Sep 18, 2011 10:31 am

    How do people know this?? I don't remember that in the manga...? scratch
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    Re: Do you think ZEKI is over?

    Post by Katherine on Sun Sep 18, 2011 10:58 am

    Kara wrote:How do people know this?? I don't remember that in the manga...? scratch

    me to...now I´m interessted but I hate it too...I don´t like the image of sSig_censored

    uhm could we get off the topic of rape please it gives me shivers thinking about it and its no the nicest of topics. sorry for bing a prune.

    You´re not a prune for doing that...I don´t like this and it gives me shivers too..my image of shizuka is changing right now
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    Re: Do you think ZEKI is over?

    Post by aya-chan on Sun Sep 18, 2011 11:50 am

    Kara wrote:How do people know this?? I don't remember that in the manga...? scratch

    Ask this the person who put shizuka, rape and zero in the same sentence. I don't remember that in manga either, I was shocked too affraid
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    Re: Do you think ZEKI is over?

    Post by caela on Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:01 pm

    The "rape" is not canon. It's a theory of mine to explain the chapter 74 bite scene. Here's a quote of my own stuff

    This bite scene between Yuuki and Zero has nothing to do with romance for a reason. Zero has only experienced being bitten previously by Shizuka Hio, and both those instances were essentially rape and murder scenes (Shizuka even showed physical attraction towards Zero the second time around). The fact that Zero was willing to let Yuuki take his blood from his neck IS SIGNIFICANT because he is actually allowing someone to bite him and HE WASN'T TRAUMATIZED afterwards.

    No one should have been expecting a romantic development from that scene. I don't imagine rape victims enjoy sex after the fact. This is a step up for Zero because he is showing recovery from those terrible experiences.

    It is not a literal rape but is supposed to show that Zero is as traumatized (or more) as such a victim. Those being bitten are supposed to be able to enjoy being bitten by their loved ones as per Aidou (5th chapter). Zero does not show any sign that he enjoyed being bitten by Yuuki because he has negative associations with being bitten.

    Okay, again with feeling. I never claimed that Zero was raped.

    Didn't mean to scare anyone or give people uncontrollable giggles.

    In any case, Vampire Knight (VK) canon brings up incest, cannibalism, and murder. I would assume that the future of VK might enter other taboo areas as well. I can feel your pain but anything that has vampire or Gothic themes tend to have dark plot points. VK is literally like a rated R or NC-17 manga. Be warned.

    Here is my polite annoyed moment:

    The thread is asking if Zeki is over. Has Zeki ever started? NO, i understand that. Can something end before it starts? Yes. If I hit on someone and he says "no", it ended before anything could get started. OKAY?

    This is the least productive argument in this thread because it solves nothing and only shows how much we like philosophy and semantics more than Vampire Knight while in a Vampire Knight forum. Please consider that argument closed because it adds nothing to our understanding of Vampire Knight....

    Also, in the thread it was said that if Yuuki would only accept a virgin as a boyfriend/spouse, then if Zero was "raped," he no longer counts as a virgin and would be rejected by Yuuki.

    If we want to play with logic like that, here:

    Kaname is an ancestor. He has had offspring, babies, progeny. I don't think he is still a virgin. In that scenario, Yuuki would also reject Kaname.

    ::end of polite annoyed moment::

    To reiterate: I never said that ZEKI is currently happening. I am defending the possibility of Zeki.

    Currently YUME also doesn't exist. It is on hiatus, or on a break.

    Seriously, are we all on the same page? Because I want to spend my daily 30 minutes showing the real object of Yuuki's romantic interest, and by the way, Yuuki is a major complex mess to unravel.

    I repeat, ZEKI, is not over. Zero never got rejected by Yuuki. Yuuki never told Zero, "This Zeki thing is not happening." So for the entire thread "Do You Think Zeki Is Over," the simple answer is NO.

    I hope to get to Yuuki mind map tomorrow and show you guys the complex answer.
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    Re: Do you think ZEKI is over?

    Post by juliet on Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:29 pm

    caela wrote:

    I repeat, ZEKI, is not over. Zero never got rejected by Yuuki. Yuuki never told Zero, "This Zeki thing is not happening." So for the entire thread "Do You Think Zeki Is Over," the simple answer is NO.

    I hope to get to Yuuki mind map tomorrow and show you guys the complex answer.

    She did not? So what was the choice to go with Kaname about? She knew Zero's feelings because he well exposed them to her upon leaving and she also had the knowledge of her own feelings, didn't her?

    If there was a Zeki in canon, Yuuki would have shown her regrets, her bitternes, her romantic feelings for Zero to conquer her logic vs her romantic feelings for Kaname.

    I agree with you that Zeki is not over, not in the potentiality of the coupling, the area is open for Hino to make her twists, but if we take it literally as a canon couple, no Zeki has not even started, neither ever progressed out of the friendship quest.

    Yume is a canon, either on hiatus or whatever, in the literal sense is a canon. Does not need recognition because the characters have already established and aknowledged their feelings both to each other and to the audience. Zeki is far behing on these two factors; it needs recognition, they are still a possibility. I do not see why this aguement does not add as you say in the discussion, it actually focuses the discussion on a very strong conscious point;

    If Hino does not make the move to further develop Zeki romantically in the nearest future, the potentiallity of the coupling is spent and consumed in the friendship arena as it does for chapters now.
    Does it seem that Hino wants to promote a canon Zeki or just flirts with the idea actually diminuishing the chances with extreme delay, when she could have shown us two aknowledged couplings.
    Does it seem optimistic or rather discouraging for you and the Zeki fans? And isn't that another Vampire Knight reality? Zero and Yuuki still in friendship mode after so 14 volumes? trying to reset actually what started as granded?







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    Re: Do you think ZEKI is over?

    Post by Anneliezz on Sun Sep 18, 2011 5:58 pm

    caela I was off a couple of days, but i see you've been defending a zeki-possibilty. I can't agree more with everything in your latest comments. Thanks for putting so much work in it. sFun_hailbig

    sweetsolace wrote:
    Anneliezz wrote:
    Honestly, I would be worried if it wasn't awkward. If they, after
    what happened, didn't act this way it would either mean 1.
    bad/unrealistic character design, or 2. it would mean they had a very
    flat relation before. So, i'm relieved their relation is starting to
    build up again in a very realistic manner.
    Their awkwardness and distance stretched for 20 chapters and more. Its understandable they'd be feeling that way but more than that it seems like that awkwardness becomes their story instead of their supposed"love feelings". The manga emphasized so much on this feeling and on their distance that it is becoming center to their relationship rather than becoming the primary obstacle they have to deal with in order to progress forward. So it makes me question the author's motive here, why drag something as superficial as this trivial feelings IF she was planning to create a love conflict there that would rival Kaname's? Shouldn't she begin making the grounds for that love conflict, instead of this distance? Like she can put up Yuki reassessing her feelings for Zero, blushing when she thinks of him, feeling agitated, anything of that sort that she feels affected by Zero's confession, which might indicate she's feeling something too perhaps, but there was nothing definite to indicate that, if there was it was more like a half assed attempt instead of a real one, such as Yuki remembering Zero biting her and saying he only needs her blood when the thought of level E crosses her mind, which is understandable in another viewpoint since Level E does mean taking blood, and at that time she was worried about his lvl e condition which connected to what Zero said that time. But it is not enough to indicate she loves him in that way because she quickly throws the thought out as if it was a nuisance instead of showing more emotional sign (blushing, distressed etc)
    Zero being Kaname's rival in love for Yuki in this case doesn't make much sense to me, as there's few or nothing at all to indicate Yuki feels that way for him (except the awkwardness) and moreover Zero himself doesnt do anything except stare blankly into space and do what he always did in the first arc.
    the evidence is weak, it is not concrete enoughto hold water in face with the obstacles it should be dealing with.

    1. There is no such thing as 20 chpaters off awkwardness, since there is no such a thing as 20 chpaters about zeki. I mean, it's only now that they start being around each othet again. Before that time, they've seen each other twice. At the ball from afar and when yuuki almost bit Zero. And those weren't really the moments to start workin on their relationship just yet. Hence, the 20-chapters-awkwardness thing, is kind of a false argument.
    2. The distance is a step to growing closer together. That was the entire point of my post. It is a step that is needed and as I just said, it's not going on for as long as it seems. And the awkwardness is starting to fade away now. Yuuki is trying to act all cheerful around him again.
    3. There are much more signs for zeki than just the awkwardness. I just haven't mentioned them, because that is an entirely other discussion, that , as i said before, has been going on for a long time, because some people find it enough proof, some don't. That is just the way it is.

    Anneliezz wrote:For their pervious conversation
    I think they were both lying.
    if so, how much more lie can they take? surely if they ARE indeed lying the whole time there's a point where that facade crashes down... we have encountered situations where this lie can drop and i believe its in chapter 74 with the bite where the blood does the telling. What does that reveal? What does that mean for ZEKI, another lie? how many more chapters of lies between them? for more than 20 chapters spent on lies, what does that tell of their relationship? [/quote] chapter 74 was no moment to tell the truth there. There taking a step (blood) for moving forward. On that moment they're already on edge. There's no point for zero to tell yuuki how he feels. So if she asks him to think about something else, he'd want to deny she could see anything that has to do with her. Wich is obviously what he's afraid of, (remember the 'oi, don't pry into my memories' thing)I agree that lies have to stop, but now was not the time yet. And caela has already pointed out the importance of the bite.

    Anneliezz wrote:
    With Zero it's most obvious. We've seen him this entire 2nd arcade
    acting emotionless and numb. Towards Yuki the same. (I mean he did
    confess his feelings, and then she went too be with kaname, it would
    want to act as distant as possible) But remember the time when aido made
    a comment about yuuki, and if he were hime, he'd go get her and
    stuff.... He didn't react immediately, but a couple af chapters later
    ,he gets back to this, acting more emotional then the entire arcade
    (except for the ichiru-scene, but then he was alone)
    Furthermore, he continues to help yuuki, admits she hasn't changed (from the old yuuki, the one he loved), and so on..
    his latest one, i believe, doesnt lie, as it was from his blood, and his blood told he does not feel that strong for yuki, as his foremost thought was about his coffin in the future. He might have feelings for her, but i believe he's also trying to move on and thats why it got buried somewhere that needs to take some searching to surface ^[/quote] His blood did not tell that he doesn't feel for yuuki anymore. It didn't teel her anything. Zero is good at hiding his feelings,and he stopped yuuki before she could see more. and yuuki asked him to think about sth else, even if he denied he could be thining about her, he still must've tried nt to think about her.
    Anneliezz wrote:What we can see , is that she cares. You can't deny that.
    I don't deny it either. I think we can all agree to that. What Im not convinced is that she loves him romantically.

    [/quote] I know, but that's my point. She cares about him, anyone can see. And there's no proof, that she doesn't love him romantically (i'm not saying it's the other way around either) So that's another reason why zeki isn't over yet



    hehe^^ to make the mood a little bit lighter. It seems that sagakure thinks zero's a big fat liar too. ^^ She made a fanart about it, lol , it's funny(so credits to her for her always-amazing work)
    http://sagakure.livejournal.com/369687.html
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    juliet
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    Re: Do you think ZEKI is over?

    Post by juliet on Sun Sep 18, 2011 7:29 pm

    Anneliezz wrote:



    hehe^^ to make the mood a little bit lighter. It seems that sagakure thinks zero's a big fat liar too. ^^ She made a fanart about it, lol , it's funny(so credits to her for her always-amazing work)
    http://sagakure.livejournal.com/369687.html

    Οh yes and by the way (I should post that in a different thread but I am out of time right now), SGK also posted at that page a clock that the fans can download, it demonstrates pictures according to time zone (Kaname, Yuuki, Zero) and a quiz for the japanese speakers from the Lala Festival. So do make the trouble and check the page, there are interesting goodies there (apart from Zero lying LOL rofl rofl rofl rofl )....


    M...I wont go over the issue right now, as I said no time but to me; honesty and recognition of feelings is a progress that "Zeki" refuses to make several volumes now, am, okay let them be first friends and then let's see about romance...

    (If Kaname and Yuuki have not been married by then)...but you never know.. rofl rofl rofl okay enough with humour check the goodies.






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    Re: Do you think ZEKI is over?

    Post by wohoyo on Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:26 pm

    I honestly don't think they're over (yet).

    Both are just lying to each other when they truly do have some, if not none, feelings for each other. Back to when Yuuki was going home with Kaname for the first time, she admitted that part of her heart was attached to Zero. Obviously, they can't just suddenly disappear.

    And Zero, well... He's just plain stubborn to admit it himself.

    I think Kaname intends to give her to Zero as he has plans of his own, but I think that if the two don't admit their feelings to each other, their pride will prevent them from getting together in the end.
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    Re: Do you think ZEKI is over?

    Post by Divine Rose on Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:33 pm

    wohoyo wrote:I honestly don't think they're over (yet).

    Both are just lying to each other when they truly do have some, if not none, feelings for each other. Back to when Yuuki was going home with Kaname for the first time, she admitted that part of her heart was attached to Zero. Obviously, they can't just suddenly disappear.

    And Zero, well... He's just plain stubborn to admit it himself.

    I think Kaname intends to give her to Zero as he has plans of his own, but I think that if the two don't admit their feelings to each other, their pride will prevent them from getting together in the end.

    Um, what do you mean by Kaname intends to give Yuuki to Zero? scratch scratch
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    Re: Do you think ZEKI is over?

    Post by Lisi on Sun Sep 18, 2011 9:01 pm

    wohoyo wrote:


    I think Kaname intends to give her to Zero as he has plans of his own, but I think that if the two don't admit their feelings to each other, their pride will prevent them from getting together in the end.

    LOL
    I don't think Kaname intends to give her to Zero. Yuki isn't a lifeless object.
    Kaname want to fulfill his original plan.

    IMO he will return to yuki.
    and yuki will decide between kaname and zero.
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    Re: Do you think ZEKI is over?

    Post by Divine Rose on Sun Sep 18, 2011 9:12 pm

    Lisi wrote:
    wohoyo wrote:


    I think Kaname intends to give her to Zero as he has plans of his own, but I think that if the two don't admit their feelings to each other, their pride will prevent them from getting together in the end.

    LOL
    I don't think Kaname intends to give her to Zero. Yuki isn't a lifeless object.
    Kaname want to fulfill his original plan.

    IMO he will return to yuki.
    and yuki will decide between kaname and zero.

    Oh! That what that means! rofl rofl rofl rofl

    Yeah, Kaname will give Yuuki, the single most important person in his life, to Zero. rofl rofl And that's why he at times showed a bit of jealousy of Yuuki's & Zero's closeness. rofl rofl

    And now Yuuki is an object to be given away? He's going to just give her away and say: "Stay with him.". rofl rofl

    Yeah, Yuuki will decide to whom she'll stay with.
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    Re: Do you think ZEKI is over?

    Post by caela on Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:10 am

    Good Afternoon Juliet,
    I'm assuming that you are tired and stressed for time because in your last post, I think you made up a word. I've heard that Shakespeare did the same, so I'll work with what you are giving me.

    Does it seem optimistic or rather discouraging for you and the Zeki fans? And isn't that another Vampire Knight reality? Zero and Yuuki still in friendship mode after so 14 volumes? trying to reset actually what started as granded?

    Yes, I am a supporter of Zeki. My feelings on this are not a focus though. The question of the forum is , "Do You Think Zeki is Over?" We are here to argue whatever points we have and to support these points with the manga. I thank you for your concern over my well being (i guess that's what you are trying to do) but I suggest you get your rest first. For the record, my ego is that huge ugly purple thing you can see from space.

    To summarize what I think was Juliet's main point:
    Yume happened, Zeki never did, and Yume being on a break is more real than never having loved as a real couple at all.

    I agree with the first two! Not the last one. Note: the below is based on an amateur translation from god knows what language. Hopefully it was the original Japanese, but the more translations it goes through, the less reliable it gets.

    Chapter 74
    Kaien: Yuuki has started to rely on her own will to carry on living.

    Kaname: I can no longer chain her to me...

    Kaname sees Yume as broken up.

    Somewhere the point was made that in chapter 74, Yuuki shows no remorse towards Kaname for drinking Zero's blood. Yuuki promised to never drink that stuff to Kaname. Why didn't she feel guilty for drinking Zero's blood? Because she also sees Yume as broken up. Yuuki and Kaname are back on the market. I hope Ruka doesn't faint.

    So, why am I unconcerned about the lack of Zeki canon? Because YUME is OVER. Both YUME and ZEKI do not exist. (this also means I did a flip flop, I originally posted that YUME was on break, but rereading it, I changed my mind; the first time I read the chapter I was skimming it, sorry)

    Everyone should take a big sigh because right now, after 74 chapters of us squinting at manga, Aidou has as much of a shot with Yuuki as either Kaname or Zero. Is Aidou even straight? (that's a thread worth losing sleep over)

    (I am exaggerating Aidou's actual chances, I thought it was funnier that way, but seriously, he actually is now in the running)

    (didn't respond to alot of new stuff in the thread, I'm that tired. will return and also start what I promised a while back. also I misinterpreted a zero statement from chap 74 [some older post of mine, zero is a liar...oops], dude, I hate that I cant read Japanese, will be back to fix)




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    Re: Do you think ZEKI is over?

    Post by krissy0324 on Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:11 pm

    I don't think ZEKI is over.

    from Juliet: trying to reset actually what started as granded?
    Possibly.

    I was thinking that the story has different phases:
    1 - is when Yuuki tries to remember her past.
    Shows how she dealt with her fear of vampires. Ultimately, since her childhood friend (technically, I could consider Zero as her childhood friend), and the senpai/person who saved her from a vampire long time ago, are vampires.


    2 - the seal on Yuuki's past was broken and reunites with his brother.
    They defeated Rido - who killed their parents, and then left. Yuuki was taught what she needs to know about Purebloods and such.


    3 - problem with the Purebloods worsen and projects the characters to a new chapter of their lives.
    Is where we currently are, and who knows what will happen next.
    I don't know more than you guys do, plus I read VK a long time ago; I stopped reading after chapter 60++, and just started reading again yesterday.


    That being said. I think the ZEKI tandem will answer the question we have about the novel's TITLE.


    ZEKI IS GOING TO BE A STRONG TAG-TEAM..

    I also think that this tag-team will lead to the solution to the problem in the series: the CO-EXISTENCE of HUMANS and VAMPIRES; which I think, in turn, will lead to curing ZERO'S HATRED TOWARDS VAMPIRES.


    Think about how the characters are behaving:
    Kaname is always in darkness.. giving the plot to the story.
    Hino-sensei has introduced us the two characters in huge detail from the start.
    They have been the focus of the story - their relationship.

    I think, that their relationship will start to change as Yuuki is to takes on the responsibility to take care of the Night class (VAMPIRES) and Zero the Day class (HUMANS). As Yuuki will be drinking Zero's blood from now on, definitely, something will happen there. LAST BUT NOT HE LEAST, Maria who is now interested in Zero. She will be the one to help Yuuki realize her feelings, or something.





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    Re: Do you think ZEKI is over?

    Post by caela on Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:53 pm

    I feel that my earlier post can stand alone, so I don't want to add these points to the older box. Also I've been editing the earlier box and deleted a irrelevant point. Anywhoo....

    and by the way, if your haven't finished chapter 74: SPOILER ALERT, I don't suggest reading my posts

    Juliet, if you want to know my feelings as someone who wants to see a ZEKI ending: hmmm, this is the only spot where my feelings on this might be relevant to the thread. This is more of an emotional argument but ever since Yuuki started a relationship with Kaname, she has smiled alot less. This is partially from her house arrest that Kaname is imposing for her own safety, but I also think that Kaname is a downer when he is with Yuuki. The guy spends his free time in the family vault, which is pretty morbid.

    Notably, Yuuki smiles more around Zero, like when she first saw Zero in the graveyard in chapter 60, or when she apologizes to Zero at the end of the same chapter.


    In chapter 67, Zero has a moment of crisis when Yori points out to him that Yuuki hasn't changed [from when Yuuki was a human] . His eyes turn red (I think, black and white is not a medium to see the eye color change well), so I think he goes through a bloodlust-for-Yuuki-moment and he visualizes the smiling moments of Yuuki from chapter 60. The relevance of this moment is that I think this is where Zero goes through a breakthrough and gets over the fact that Yuuki is a pureblood, because it is here that Zero does the yuuki personality math and figures out that human Yuuki = vampire Yuuki. (This is a side note and a detour, but it shows that one barrier to Zeki is gone)

    In reality, Yuuki has changed, she is a bit depressed and she doesn't have her normal positive personality that she had as a human, which she only has around Zero, (well, Yori too). She can't handle the night class!

    The Bite in Chapter 74 (I'm shuddering at the thought of mentioning this again, I am not going to bring up anything not PC here ever again) results in a more relaxed Yuuki and Zero. Yuuki orders Zero around and Zero happily (well, what passes for happy for him) complies. Yuuki never orders people to do anything, so I take this as a sign that their relationship is progressing. As I said earlier, Yuuki is the one who approached the bite with romantic intentions. Insisting on taking blood from Zero's neck and demanding to see his face show her interest. If she were only concerned about Zero's welfare, his feelings for her (well, even if she were platonic towards zero, that would still concern her), his blood thirst and level E status, she could have stuck to the blood from his wrist.

    Juliet, I think you mentioned that 14 volumes later, there is still no Zeki canon, which = less chance for Zeki. If we knew that VK would end on volume 15-18ish, I would agree with that statement. I'm not terribly worried about the ticking of the VK doomsday clock because Yuuki, the main character, is very incomplete. She is a pureblood who can wield Artemis. On paper, she should be the ultimate vampire. Right now both her abilites and her personality do not match her potential. Being the main character, unless she starts getting awesome (because frankly she is a dull main character right now) I'm not scared about the series ending anytime soon. It might drag a bit, but that is a separate concern.

    OK, down to business about who Yuuki really loves.

    Vampire bites to the neck are complex because if it involves a loved one, there are two basic needs being met: food hunger and sexual hunger.

    One type of biting that I am going to ignore is family bites. Senri gives blood to his mom upon request. I'm not convinced this is normal for vampires because that woman willingly chose Rido as a mate, which does not scream, here is a well-adjusted person. There is also a hint of child abuse in Senri's past (I remember someone telling child Senri "be a living doll"). Also, there is no other example of family biting in the manga.


    Rido has unrequited lust for Yuuki/Juri = wants to drain both the ladies of their blood and would have been never satisfied with a little bit of their blood.

    Haruka and Juuri: True love but we never see a bite scene from them

    Kaname and Ruka: He loses control and almost drains her dry. I couldn't tell you if Kaname was ever attracted to Ruka or not, but what I can say is that she was never a true contender against Yuuki. Both Kaname and Ruka seem to have the understanding that Ruka was only a stand-in for Yuuki during this bite.

    Yuuki biting Zero, she didn't drink much but she seems satisfied and relaxed afterwards. Zero loves her and Yuuki is at least partially in love with Zero (according to Kaname and Yuuki chapter 51) and is attracted to Zero. I'm going to list this as the closest living example of requited love. I don't think this is a full reciprocated love because Yuuki's fists are clenched (chapter 74)

    Zero biting Yuuki in the first school arc: comes close to draining her dry a few times. He knows his love for her is unrequited.

    Kaname biting Yuuki: He never talks about his Yuuki blood thirst but we see him taking blood pills too.

    Yuuki says the same thing to Kaname that Rido does, paraphrase: want your blood, a little bit won't do.


    The common thread is that if only one person of the two likes the other, blood thirst cannot be quenched. Partial love has the same problem as being unquenchable. I wish I had a bite scene from Haruka and Juuri to confirm, but the only quenchable thirst looks to be requited love. Kaname says somewhere that requited love means that your thirst can be quenched (chapter 51). Therefore Yuuki is MOST IN LOVE WITH ZERO.


    I'm guessing that Yuuki's partial love for Kaname is messing with Kaname's satisfaction with Yuuki's blood. That's why he is taking blood tablets. My OPINION is that part of the reason Kaname let Yuuki go is the same reason he let Yuuki alone to say goodbye to Zero in chapter 46: He is hoping that if ZEKI spends time together that Zero's mental hang-ups (which really exist) plus Yuuki's own very real political responsibilities as a Pureblood will make it clear that she should be with Kaname and not Zero. Divine Rose and Lisi and a few others are having a debate about Kaname giving away Yuuki.

    I agree that no one can be given away, but Kaname did cut the cord. He had to have known that cutting that cord will lead to more Zeki interaction. He's just hoping that that interaction will be a reality check for Yuuki. As much as I am a ZEKI fangirl, a true Zeki relationship has ALOT of barriers: the hunter association (Zero is supposed to be the future head)and Yuuki's own responsibility as a pureblood. A ZEKI relationship might even be irresponsible and have all the tragic elements of Romeo and Juliet.

    Also, Kaname does have a trump card. He has eternal life, Zero does not. Kaname can afford to wait around because in the end, Zero will die first.

    Off topic: if you read chapter 51, you can see Aidou's brain working and figuring out that Yuuki likes Zero and that's why she is wandering the castle with blood lust despite drinking Kaname's blood on the regular. Aidou is also willing to leave Yuuki to Zero's care in chapter 74. I wonder where Aidou's true loyalites lie.

    note to Krissy: The manga picks up pace in the late 60's and 70's:)
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    juliet
    Vampire Knight
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    Re: Do you think ZEKI is over?

    Post by juliet on Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:16 pm

    Caela, as long as you care for my well-being, I shall care about yours; that’s what I suspected from you answer. I like your points there, so let’s get down to the subject…

    Chapter 74
    Kaien: Yuuki has started to rely on her own will to carry on living.

    Kaname: I can no longer chain her to me...


    Somewhere the point was made that in chapter 74, Yuuki shows no remorse towards Kaname for drinking Zero's blood. Yuuki promised to never drink that stuff to Kaname. Why didn't she feel guilty for drinking Zero's blood? Because she also sees Yume as broken up. Yuuki and Kaname are back on the market. I hope Ruka doesn't faint.

    So your point is that since Yume is broken or does not exist (new version), we can have a Zeki or even a Yudo (that sounds weird, anyway..)

    You take a scene, you isolate it and you come forward with an argument that actually concerns more Yume than Zeki (like if you say that apples are sour, lemons will get sweeter)…common approach.

    But perhaps turning back a few pages Yuuki has already answered your question there as to why she did not feel any guilt taking Zero’s blood.

    She needs blood in order to sustain herself and her interest diverts on Zero, as he sees him passing by, reflecting on that…here are her own thoughts (like an introduction that prepare us…)

    “What I want I can’t…The only one I can take from isn’t by my side, right now…” “Take only my blood”, “Even if you hadn’t said that, I would have done so Kaname”.

    “I have to pull myself together, If I don’t the night class will become meaningless, I also have to chase after Kaname, and I said I’ d keep running away from Zero too…”

    So what is the meaning of the above scene for the script?

    I think that everyone can notice the contradiction there. The contradiction is that Yuuki reflects the moment that she promised to Kaname but she also reflects the importance of her role and her task; that’s the prelude that comes before the biting.

    So, when she is pushed to bite Zero or he would crash her game, she has already concluded/worked in her mind what is important to do right now. Exactly because of that, she throws her inhibitions to the side.

    And that brings us to the biting scene, where Yuuki is actually pushed to take Zero’s blood…but even before drinking from him, she makes her intentions clear to him and to us.

    Here is what she says; “Not drinking because of your offer Zero…a little is fine, once I am satisfied I will do my job as a Kuran pureblood”.
    Zero’s answer; “I no longer feel anything about you neither”…

    Spoiler:

    “From now on I must respond to Zero’s actions, in accordance with this promise that reminds a deal…”..”Its okay we can start from scratch again”

    I think that these lines speak themeselves…because even if kaname has left and Yuuki is rensponsible to apply the co-existence treaty, she has no intention to abandon her targets, which is to go after Kaname, when the time arrives.
    I also see that you are using Kaname’s words;

    Kaien: Yuuki has started to rely on her own will to carry on living.

    Kaname: I can no longer chain her to me..
    .

    But the first line that you have posted belongs to Kaname;
    Spoiler:

    and you have also neglected a very strong point in your verdict that Yume exist no more; Kaien’s presence there altogether;
    I summon his words;
    “I’ve come to tell you that I can no longer return Yuuki to you”…

    So since Yume has ended, what is Kaien’s concern there? According to your POV his words are worthless…it is these words that trigger a response from Kaname…(and an unhappy face)
    “Yuuki, has already decided to live by her own will, chairman, I am actually grateful that you here to keep Yuuki away from me”…

    So what is this line about?
    Chairman is keeping Yuuki away from him?
    So what has happened to Yume there? It has ended?
    Okay if it has, someone should inform Yuuki that wants to go after Kaname, someone should say that to Kaname who is stupid enough to thank Kaiem for keeping yuuki away from him, and also Kaien who must be phasing a delirium syndrome there.

    I think we all get the meaning.

    So guess if that equals a non-existing Yume, what does the “Zeki” case that has turned into a clear business equal? The ice age long before existence? …could be the ice age (by the way they treat each other, okay little joke there)…

    Well in case you have not noticed, Yume right now (at least at the current moment) consumes the potentiality of Zeki that seems to serve as a vehicle in order for Yuuki to complete her final objectives (awful excuse there, I know for Hino to serve fan services) along with solving the Yuuki-Zero relationship problem at least.

    But with this excuse, Hino is not rising a Zeki romance that can overshadow Yume with straight lines and open recognition, especially at this critical phase where Kaname is away.
    I think if Hino intends to bring Zeki forward, she is taking the wrong path here focusing on re-establishing a relationship on an agreement phase instead of going straight with her character’s feelings because YES I shall repeat it’s 14 volumes.

    If in 14 volumes the characters have not established a connection yet, and a mutual recognition of each other’s importance in each other lives, and are still trying to reset their friendly attitude, what are they waiting for?

    Suddenly this possible romance seems dragged from the hair, I do not say its impossible but it arrives with impossible ways.

    And I think the question is obvious; if there is a Zeki romance there, evident for us to catch between the lines, what’s the use of so many “devices” in the script such as “agreements, extreme hunger?, fading memories, “stand up to roles” and also goals that have to be sustained?

    I do not think a romance needs such petty excuse to move forward because love is natural, cannot be hidden and after so many chapters still I see NO recognition of feelings; where is Yuuki admitting how much she loved that biting? Where is Zero’s mind and feelings exploding when she bites him? Where are the two characters feelings? And why the use of so many excuses?

    That’s a point that I do not understand, unless Hino is using all of them especially because she wants to diminish the Zeki possibility and sustain the canon Yume.

    Anyway, I do not see the point of skipping 14 volumes and catch the script from here like nothing matters. Apparently there is a history and there has to be used somehow.

    BITING:

    The common thread is that if only one person of the two likes the other, blood thirst cannot be quenched. Partial love has the same problem as being unquenchable. I wish I had a bite scene from Haruka and Juuri to confirm, but the only quenchable thirst looks to be requited love. Kaname says somewhere that requited love means that your thirst can be quenched (chapter 51). Therefore Yuuki is MOST IN LOVE WITH ZERO.
    There is also this line here;
    Spoiler:
    Spoiler:
    and may I mention that she had suck Kaname before diving in his memories…

    So that adds another spectrum; yes the blood of the loved ones can quench your hunger/thirst but apparently one can not have enough from the person she/he loves; as in love we find ultimate satisfaction at the kisses of the person we like but are they ever enough? No, if that was so then romance would just stop to exist, if a biting was enough, if just a kiss was okay.

    So I think that Hino there adds another field in the biting, we understood that a vampire in love would seek the blood of its beloved person, but if even this is enough is another case, as stated by Yuuki.










    I' ll show you a sweet dream next time
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    Conrad Weller
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    Re: Do you think ZEKI is over?

    Post by Conrad Weller on Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:28 am

    caela wrote:I feel that my earlier post can stand alone, so I don't want to add these points to the older box. Also I've been editing the earlier box and deleted a irrelevant point. Anywhoo....

    and by the way, if your haven't finished chapter 74: SPOILER ALERT, I don't suggest reading my posts

    Juliet, if you want to know my feelings as someone who wants to see a ZEKI ending: hmmm, this is the only spot where my feelings on this might be relevant to the thread. This is more of an emotional argument but ever since Yuuki started a relationship with Kaname, she has smiled alot less. This is partially from her house arrest that Kaname is imposing for her own safety, but I also think that Kaname is a downer when he is with Yuuki. The guy spends his free time in the family vault, which is pretty morbid.

    Notably, Yuuki smiles more around Zero, like when she first saw Zero in the graveyard in chapter 60, or when she apologizes to Zero at the end of the same chapter.


    In chapter 67, Zero has a moment of crisis when Yori points out to him that Yuuki hasn't changed [from when Yuuki was a human] . His eyes turn red (I think, black and white is not a medium to see the eye color change well), so I think he goes through a bloodlust-for-Yuuki-moment and he visualizes the smiling moments of Yuuki from chapter 60. The relevance of this moment is that I think this is where Zero goes through a breakthrough and gets over the fact that Yuuki is a pureblood, because it is here that Zero does the yuuki personality math and figures out that human Yuuki = vampire Yuuki. (This is a side note and a detour, but it shows that one barrier to Zeki is gone)

    In reality, Yuuki has changed, she is a bit depressed and she doesn't have her normal positive personality that she had as a human, which she only has around Zero, (well, Yori too). She can't handle the night class!

    The Bite in Chapter 74 (I'm shuddering at the thought of mentioning this again, I am not going to bring up anything not PC here ever again) results in a more relaxed Yuuki and Zero. Yuuki orders Zero around and Zero happily (well, what passes for happy for him) complies. Yuuki never orders people to do anything, so I take this as a sign that their relationship is progressing. As I said earlier, Yuuki is the one who approached the bite with romantic intentions. Insisting on taking blood from Zero's neck and demanding to see his face show her interest. If she were only concerned about Zero's welfare, his feelings for her (well, even if she were platonic towards zero, that would still concern her), his blood thirst and level E status, she could have stuck to the blood from his wrist.

    Juliet, I think you mentioned that 14 volumes later, there is still no Zeki canon, which = less chance for Zeki. If we knew that VK would end on volume 15-18ish, I would agree with that statement. I'm not terribly worried about the ticking of the VK doomsday clock because Yuuki, the main character, is very incomplete. She is a pureblood who can wield Artemis. On paper, she should be the ultimate vampire. Right now both her abilites and her personality do not match her potential. Being the main character, unless she starts getting awesome (because frankly she is a dull main character right now) I'm not scared about the series ending anytime soon. It might drag a bit, but that is a separate concern.

    OK, down to business about who Yuuki really loves.

    Vampire bites to the neck are complex because if it involves a loved one, there are two basic needs being met: food hunger and sexual hunger.

    One type of biting that I am going to ignore is family bites. Senri gives blood to his mom upon request. I'm not convinced this is normal for vampires because that woman willingly chose Rido as a mate, which does not scream, here is a well-adjusted person. There is also a hint of child abuse in Senri's past (I remember someone telling child Senri "be a living doll"). Also, there is no other example of family biting in the manga.


    Rido has unrequited lust for Yuuki/Juri = wants to drain both the ladies of their blood and would have been never satisfied with a little bit of their blood.

    Haruka and Juuri: True love but we never see a bite scene from them
    .

    Yuuki biting Zero, she didn't drink much but she seems satisfied and relaxed afterwards. Zero loves her and Yuuki is at least partially in love with Zero (according to Kaname and Yuuki chapter 51) and is attracted to Zero. I'm going to list this as the closest living example of requited love. I don't think this is a full reciprocated love because Yuuki's fists are clenched (chapter 74)

    Zero biting Yuuki in the first school arc: comes close to draining her dry a few times. He knows his love for her is unrequited.

    Kaname biting Yuuki: He never talks about his Yuuki blood thirst but we see him taking blood pills too.

    Yuuki says the same thing to Kaname that Rido does, paraphrase: want your blood, a little bit won't do.


    The common thread is that if only one person of the two likes the other, blood thirst cannot be quenched. Partial love has the same problem as being unquenchable. I wish I had a bite scene from Haruka and Juuri to confirm, but the only quenchable thirst looks to be requited love. Kaname says somewhere that requited love means that your thirst can be quenched (chapter 51). Therefore Yuuki is MOST IN LOVE WITH ZERO.


    I'm guessing that Yuuki's partial love for Kaname is messing with Kaname's satisfaction with Yuuki's blood. That's why he is taking blood tablets. My OPINION is that part of the reason Kaname let Yuuki go is the same reason he let Yuuki alone to say goodbye to Zero in chapter 46: He is hoping that if ZEKI spends time together that Zero's mental hang-ups (which really exist) plus Yuuki's own very real political responsibilities as a Pureblood will make it clear that she should be with Kaname and not Zero. Divine Rose and Lisi and a few others are having a debate about Kaname giving away Yuuki.

    I agree that no one can be given away, but Kaname did cut the cord. He had to have known that cutting that cord will lead to more Zeki interaction. He's just hoping that that interaction will be a reality check for Yuuki. As much as I am a ZEKI fangirl, a true Zeki relationship has ALOT of barriers: the hunter association (Zero is supposed to be the future head)and Yuuki's own responsibility as a pureblood. A ZEKI relationship might even be irresponsible and have all the tragic elements of Romeo and Juliet.

    Also, Kaname does have a trump card. He has eternal life, Zero does not. Kaname can afford to wait around because in the end, Zero will die first.

    Off topic: if you read chapter 51, you can see Aidou's brain working and figuring out that Yuuki likes Zero and that's why she is wandering the castle with blood lust despite drinking Kaname's blood on the regular. Aidou is also willing to leave Yuuki to Zero's care in chapter 74. I wonder where Aidou's true loyalites lie.

    note to Krissy: The manga picks up pace in the late 60's and 70's:)


    oh really a house arrest i wonder if keeping your beloved fiance safe now counts as house arrest. oh please stop trying to put that ruka's name near kaname she can die or go to hell. she practically came barging inside his room. who told her to come. she is nothing but an annoyance. her bite scene doesnt even count.

    i would have been happier if kaname bit yuuki at that age. all these annoying pest women wouldn't come near him.

    about yuki being unusual weilding artemis, and a pureblood well rido also brought a hunter weapon to kill hs siblings. kaname himself can use artemis as shown in past and he can control bloody rose.

    yeah aidou's loyalties lie where, who knows we were all angry at least yume lovers at him how dare that stupid makes such a statement to zero. maybe aidou likes kaname.but if you do remember aidou and yuki are the only people who promised to remain by kaname's side no matter what. so his saying this to zero might be a way to get a rise out of him. well i dont really care.whether it's aidou, ruca, or any person all they do is deny yume pairing. why the reason. they know yuki and kaname are meant to be with each other, love each other only,

    kaname takes pills so what, does it mean anything. his thirst was quenched by yuuki everyone knows that.

    well i dont think so yuuki's love for kaname is partial. she wants to consume him whole she loves him that much. she always has. no kaname is not giving yuuki away. did he say that we never saw it.

    lol what's that supposed to mean kaname has eternal life so he can wait. this isnt a game. its zero's fault he fell in love with her. he knew she loved kaname even encouraged her gave her chocolates to kaname, was present when she confessed to him. kaname has already stayed without yuki for ten years okay. yuki is his.and you are contradicting yourself make up your mind . is kaname the author he will make zeki interactions.

    well why then yuki says that she drank the blood of the person she never would have drunk. zero was in blood lust in the first arc he first bit yuki unconsciously.

    well zeki is over or not i hope so this was the last zeki scene ever.

    oh about romeo juliet thing it suits kaname and yuki more.every one is trying to break them apart. yuki does smile when she is with kaname. when purebloods are dying she isnt suppose to smile like a fool.

    yuki loves kaname the most and kaname loves yuki only in this whole series i already gave my reasons wont type again.

    Caela, as long as you care for my well-being, I shall care about yours; that’s what I suspected from you answer. I like your points there, so let’s get down to the subject…

    Chapter 74
    Kaien: Yuuki has started to rely on her own will to carry on living.

    Kaname: I can no longer chain her to me...


    Somewhere the point was made that in chapter 74, Yuuki shows no remorse towards Kaname for drinking Zero's blood. Yuuki promised to never drink that stuff to Kaname. Why didn't she feel guilty for drinking Zero's blood? Because she also sees Yume as broken up. Yuuki and Kaname are back on the market. I hope Ruka doesn't faint.



    So your point is that since Yume is broken or does not exist (new version), we can have a Zeki or even a Yudo (that sounds weird, anyway..)

    You take a scene, you isolate it and you come forward with an argument that actually concerns more Yume than Zeki (like if you say that apples are sour, lemons will get sweeter)…common approach.

    But perhaps turning back a few pages Yuuki has already answered your question there as to why she did not feel any guilt taking Zero’s blood.

    She needs blood in order to sustain herself and her interest diverts on Zero, as he sees him passing by, reflecting on that…here are her own thoughts (like an introduction that prepare us…)

    “What I want I can’t…The only one I can take from isn’t by my side, right now…” “Take only my blood”, “Even if you hadn’t said that, I would have done so Kaname”.

    “I have to pull myself together, If I don’t the night class will become meaningless, I also have to chase after Kaname, and I said I’ d keep running away from Zero too…”

    So what is the meaning of the above scene for the script?

    I think that everyone can notice the contradiction there. The contradiction is that Yuuki reflects the moment that she promised to Kaname but she also reflects the importance of her role and her task; that’s the prelude that comes before the biting.

    So, when she is pushed to bite Zero or he would crash her game, she has already concluded/worked in her mind what is important to do right now. Exactly because of that, she throws her inhibitions to the side.

    And that brings us to the biting scene, where Yuuki is actually pushed to take Zero’s blood…but even before drinking from him, she makes her intentions clear to him and to us.

    Here is what she says; “Not drinking because of your offer Zero…a little is fine, once I am satisfied I will do my job as a Kuran pureblood”.
    Zero’s answer; “I no longer feel anything about you neither”…

    Spoiler:



    “From now on I must respond to Zero’s actions, in accordance with this promise that reminds a deal…”..”Its okay we can start from scratch again”

    I think that these lines speak themeselves…because even if kaname has left and Yuuki is rensponsible to apply the co-existence treaty, she has no intention to abandon her targets, which is to go after Kaname, when the time arrives.
    I also see that you are using Kaname’s words;

    Kaien: Yuuki has started to rely on her own will to carry on living.

    Kaname: I can no longer chain her to me..

    .

    But the first line that you have posted belongs to Kaname;

    Spoiler:



    and you have also neglected a very strong point in your verdict that Yume exist no more; Kaien’s presence there altogether;
    I summon his words;
    “I’ve come to tell you that I can no longer return Yuuki to you”…

    So since Yume has ended, what is Kaien’s concern there? According to your POV his words are worthless…it is these words that trigger a response from Kaname…(and an unhappy face)
    “Yuuki, has already decided to live by her own will, chairman, I am actually grateful that you here to keep Yuuki away from me”…

    So what is this line about?
    Chairman is keeping Yuuki away from him?
    So what has happened to Yume there? It has ended?
    Okay if it has, someone should inform Yuuki that wants to go after Kaname, someone should say that to Kaname who is stupid enough to thank Kaiem for keeping yuuki away from him, and also Kaien who must be phasing a delirium syndrome there.

    I think we all get the meaning.

    So guess if that equals a non-existing Yume, what does the “Zeki” case that has turned into a clear business equal? The ice age long before existence? …could be the ice age (by the way they treat each other, okay little joke there)…

    Well in case you have not noticed, Yume right now (at least at the current moment) consumes the potentiality of Zeki that seems to serve as a vehicle in order for Yuuki to complete her final objectives (awful excuse there, I know for Hino to serve fan services) along with solving the Yuuki-Zero relationship problem at least.

    But with this excuse, Hino is not rising a Zeki romance that can overshadow Yume with straight lines and open recognition, especially at this critical phase where Kaname is away.
    I think if Hino intends to bring Zeki forward, she is taking the wrong path here focusing on re-establishing a relationship on an agreement phase instead of going straight with her character’s feelings because YES I shall repeat it’s 14 volumes.

    If in 14 volumes the characters have not established a connection yet, and a mutual recognition of each other’s importance in each other lives, and are still trying to reset their friendly attitude, what are they waiting for?

    Suddenly this possible romance seems dragged from the hair, I do not say its impossible but it arrives with impossible ways.

    And I think the question is obvious; if there is a Zeki romance there, evident for us to catch between the lines, what’s the use of so many “devices” in the script such as “agreements, extreme hunger?, fading memories, “stand up to roles” and also goals that have to be sustained?

    I do not think a romance needs such petty excuse to move forward because love is natural, cannot be hidden and after so many chapters still I see NO recognition of feelings; where is Yuuki admitting how much she loved that biting? Where is Zero’s mind and feelings exploding when she bites him? Where are the two characters feelings? And why the use of so many excuses?

    That’s a point that I do not understand, unless Hino is using all of them especially because she wants to diminish the Zeki possibility and sustain the canon Yume.

    Anyway, I do not see the point of skipping 14 volumes and catch the script from here like nothing matters. Apparently there is a history and there has to be used somehow.

    BITING:

    The common thread is that if only one person of the two likes the other, blood thirst cannot be quenched. Partial love has the same problem as being unquenchable. I wish I had a bite scene from Haruka and Juuri to confirm, but the only quenchable thirst looks to be requited love. Kaname says somewhere that requited love means that your thirst can be quenched (chapter 51). Therefore Yuuki is MOST IN LOVE WITH ZERO.


    There is also this line here;

    Spoiler:


    Spoiler:


    and may I mention that she had suck Kaname before diving in his memories…

    So that adds another spectrum; yes the blood of the loved ones can quench your hunger/thirst but apparently one can not have enough from the person she/he loves; as in love we find ultimate satisfaction at the kisses of the person we like but are they ever enough? No, if that was so then romance would just stop to exist, if a biting was enough, if just a kiss was okay.

    So I think that Hino there adds another field in the biting, we understood that a vampire in love would seek the blood of its beloved person, but if even this is enough is another case, as stated by Yuuki.
    i agree juliet. you covered everything.
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    Re: Do you think ZEKI is over?

    Post by Divine Rose on Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:56 am

    Awesome posts Juliet & Conrad Weller! cheers cheers cheers cheers
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    Re: Do you think ZEKI is over?

    Post by KuranPrince on Tue Sep 20, 2011 5:19 am

    krissy0324 wrote:I don't think ZEKI is over.

    from Juliet: trying to reset actually what started as granded?
    Possibly.

    I was thinking that the story has different phases:
    1 - is when Yuuki tries to remember her past.
    Shows how she dealt with her fear of vampires. Ultimately, since her childhood friend (technically, I could consider Zero as her childhood friend), and the senpai/person who saved her from a vampire long time ago, are vampires.


    2 - the seal on Yuuki's past was broken and reunites with his brother.
    They defeated Rido - who killed their parents, and then left. Yuuki was taught what she needs to know about Purebloods and such.


    3 - problem with the Purebloods worsen and projects the characters to a new chapter of their lives.
    Is where we currently are, and who knows what will happen next.
    I don't know more than you guys do, plus I read VK a long time ago; I stopped reading after chapter 60++, and just started reading again yesterday.


    That being said. I think the ZEKI tandem will answer the question we have about the novel's TITLE.


    ZEKI IS GOING TO BE A STRONG TAG-TEAM..

    I also think that this tag-team will lead to the solution to the problem in the series: the CO-EXISTENCE of HUMANS and VAMPIRES; which I think, in turn, will lead to curing ZERO'S HATRED TOWARDS VAMPIRES.


    Think about how the characters are behaving:
    Kaname is always in darkness.. giving the plot to the story.
    Hino-sensei has introduced us the two characters in huge detail from the start.
    They have been the focus of the story - their relationship.

    I think, that their relationship will start to change as Yuuki is to takes on the responsibility to take care of the Night class (VAMPIRES) and Zero the Day class (HUMANS). As Yuuki will be drinking Zero's blood from now on, definitely, something will happen there. LAST BUT NOT HE LEAST, Maria who is now interested in Zero. She will be the one to help Yuuki realize her feelings, or something.


    My apologies to you, Krissy... but I don't see Yuuki & Zero as a tag team. There's a possibility of the former prefects to become allies, but not as lovers.

    Although I agree with you that Yuuki will continue her responsibility of taking care of her Night Class, I personally don't believe Yuuki will ever be drinking Zero's blood for a very long time. She only drink a few amount (not only seeing Zero's mind, but also his thoughts of falling into Level-E) to resume her duty as a Kuran.

    To end this, I believe the romance between Zero & Yuuki are over. Two vampires of different types (a pureblood engaged with Kaname and a Level-D vampire/vampire hunter) with nothing in common. She wants a peaceful co-existence like her parents, fiance Kaname, and Kaien... while the silver-grayish vampire hunter only wants divine justice... and revenge.
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    Re: Do you think ZEKI is over?

    Post by Bloodredhead on Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:40 pm

    caela wrote:
    This is partially from her house arrest that Kaname is imposing for her own safety, but I also think that Kaname is a downer when he is with Yuuki. The guy spends his free time in the family vault, which is pretty morbid.

    In reality, Yuuki has changed, she is a bit depressed and she doesn't have her normal positive personality that she had as a human, which she only has around Zero, (well, Yori too). She can't handle the night class!

    Notably, Yuuki smiles more around Zero, like when she first saw Zero in the graveyard in chapter 60, or when she apologizes to Zero at the end of the same chapter

    One thing I’d like to point out we have only seen Kaname in the vault alone once. So we can’t presume he went in there all the time for all we know it could likely have been his first visit there in quite some time. If you wish i can go get the links to all the times yuuki has smiled or been postivie to see she is like that with alot of people. Just to warn its a very longs list.

    Two Yuuki has a positive atmosphere around more than just Zero. She’s had very happy and positive moments with Kaname, Yori, Cross, Aidou and Takuma during the manga. She’s also smiled a lot round the other people too.

    Three, at the moment she is figuring out her role in a world she has been re-introduced to in 10years. She has gone from believing to be a human orphan, to a vampire princess, of standing and status in a world where many cruelties happen. She has to watch her back due to her blood being desired very highly by nearly all the vampire race, and she is now mistrusted by hunters due to her being a pureblood. Her past was also revealed and Kaname has revealed his past and sins to her. She has been learning how to use her fangs and also about vampire society. We also had Zero being cold with her and even threatening to kill her. That’s a lot to happen to a girl in such a short space of time. You try staying immensely positive and go happy with all that going on. Yuuki is trying to get into her role and adjust herself. It’s not easy, but I hope she will make it soon.

    caela wrote:Vampire bites to the neck are complex because if it involves a loved one, there are two basic needs being met: food hunger and sexual hunger.


    Yes and Yuuki bit Zero mainly out of hunger. She was thirsting, and was offered the blood of a loved one, so of course she went chomp. In that scene there was no sexual, or romantic actions, word or thoughts. You can bite someone without having to have romantic feelings for them. Look at Kaname biting Ruka (at the neck) so he wouldn’t harm Yuuki and to quench his own thirst. That wasn’t romance there, as he doesn’t love Ruka, that bite was about quenching his hunger.

    caela wrote:Kaname biting Yuuki: He never talks about his Yuuki blood thirst but we see him taking blood pills too.

    Yuuki says the same thing to Kaname that Rido does, paraphrase: want your blood, a little bit won't do.

    First Kaname has desired Yuuki’s blood for 10years and thirsted after it. His actions speak loud and clear on this, him biting Ruka(so he wouldn’t bite Yuuki), being upset that Zero got first taste of Yuuki, he also nearly bit Yuuki at the vampire soirée she was found outside of, and by what takuma said to Sara. (‘try waiting for 10 years for something you desired’).

    Also Yuuki when she thinks of Kaname wishes to devour him and take his blood. Look at these lines: -
    Chapter 50 – Kaname says “I wonder why that beast inside you craves my blood so much?”
    Chapter 51 – Chibi vampire Yuuki – “Is it wrong? To want him by my side because I don’t want to spend eternity alone? To feel both sad and loving at our existence….to desire to feed from his throat, devouring his life and feelings?”
    Chapter 51 – Yuuki says “I want to bite into his beautiful white throat, and taste the dark red blood imbued with his feelings.”
    Chapter 66 – “If you want you could eat all of him, isn’t that what you want? If you don’t devour what you desire, you’ll be driven insane.”
    Chapter 66 – “But the vampire inside of me doesn’t care, this desire is so pure it can’t be hidden.”

    From these lines its obvious Yuuki highly desires Kaname’s blood.

    caela wrote:The common thread is that if only one person of the two likes the other, blood thirst cannot be quenched. Partial love has the same problem as being unquenchable. I wish I had a bite scene from Haruka and Juuri to confirm, but the only quenchable thirst looks to be requited love. Kaname says somewhere that requited love means that your thirst can be quenched (chapter 51). Therefore Yuuki is MOST IN LOVE WITH ZERO.

    May I ask where it is stated, Yuuki is in love with Zero most? And can you show the evidence as well please.

    And partial thirst Yuuki still had a chunk of her heart attached to Zero, so that part of her thirst wasn’t quenched. Now that she has had some of his blood and having feed off Kaname for a year her thirst has been quenched. From the lines and actions I have stated above its obvious Yuuki’s desire for Kaname’s blood isn’t small or their love ‘partial’. From all words and actions in yume I can’t see how anyone can call their love partial.

    caela wrote:I'm guessing that Yuuki's partial love for Kaname is messing with Kaname's satisfaction with Yuuki's blood. That's why he is taking blood tablets.

    In regard to Kaname and blood tablets I see three reasons for him taking them.
    1) To make sure his thirst doesn’t get the better of him. He said in chapter 48 – “I am in a state of starvation, and I am a wounded vampire at that. If I forgot my restraint and allowed myself to lose control to the hunger I might do terrible things to you Yuuki.” To me Kaname is holding back in terms of his thirst still. His reasons are probably various.
    2) Yuuki has been thirsting a lot for blood over the past year, taking a lot of blood from her to quench his own thirst is I don’t think a wise idea.
    3) It’s been a daily ritual he has done for 10 years, old habits die hard as they say.

    @Juliet: A marvelous post as always! cheers cheers cheers
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    Re: Do you think ZEKI is over?

    Post by Divine Rose on Tue Sep 20, 2011 7:17 pm

    Wonderful and marvelous posts Juliet & Bloodredhead. You covered everything. Perfect logic! I agree on EVERYTHING!

    And I agree with you KuranPrince. Great response!
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    Re: Do you think ZEKI is over?

    Post by sweetsolace on Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:29 pm

    @caela


    Okay, again with feeling. I never claimed that Zero was raped.

    you just implied you did here:
    Zero has only experienced being bitten previously by Shizuka Hio, and
    both
    those instances were essentially rape and murder scenes (Shizuka
    even showed physical attraction towards Zero the second time around).
    key word was physical attraction and you said its essentially rape. if it was only intended for non literal use, no need for that attraction

    can you imagine Shizuka having physical attraction towards Zero? that can technically lead to rape .

    Zero does not show any sign that he enjoyed being bitten by Yuuki because he has negative associations with being bitten.
    its questionable.
    in this first place this is a complete assumption, Zero never ONCE said he "doesn't like being bitten". It was implied in his actions (such as Zero clawing his neck in the earlier chapters) but not proven. It is however proven that he hates vampires; everyone knows that.
    There is no other proof why Zero would consider being bitten a trauma, as there were no other instances other than Shizuka and Yuki's. if there was a previous incident then it could serve as proof.
    Zero even let Yuki touch his tattooed neck in chapter 72. As well as get a tattoo made there in the first place. if he was traumatized he would never let it be touched, not even get something done there in the first place.


    In any case, Vampire Knight (VK) canon brings up incest, cannibalism, and murder. I would assume that the future of VK might enter other taboo areas as well.
    you are correct. Kaname was even accused of adultery and majority of the zeki fans have many negative reactions towards his kills.

    To reiterate: I never said that ZEKI is currently happening. I am defending the possibility of Zeki.
    exactly. you are defending it, not canonizing a fact that zeki exists. the point of the thread is to argue if zeki still exists at present.
    the possibility of a future romance is always present in ZEKI like juliet said, but the question is if ZEKI over at present?


    Also, in the thread it was said that if Yuuki would only accept a
    virgin as a boyfriend/spouse, then if Zero was "raped," he no longer
    counts as a virgin and would be rejected by Yuuki.

    Kaname is an ancestor. He has had offspring, babies, progeny. I
    don't think he is still a virgin. In that scenario, Yuuki would also
    reject Kaname.

    if broken "virginity" is the basis for everything then Kain should dump Ruka for being bitten by Kaname.


    I repeat, ZEKI, is not over. Zero never got rejected by Yuuki. Yuuki never told Zero, "This Zeki thing is not happening."
    rejection doesn't need to have a word of confirmation IMO. rejection happened when yuki chose kaname over zero. that's it. Yuki showing no romantic interest towards Zero for the remainder of 20 chapters or more after that is also an indication she has no plans returning his feelings because it doesnt exist for her in the first place IMO.

    Yuki admitting what she truly wanted and Zero revealing the contents of his minds about yuki in chapter 74 shows they have long moved on from each other and that for me is enough proof that there was nothing going on between them other than conflict between friends.

    juliet wrote:
    If Hino does not make the move to further develop Zeki romantically
    in the nearest future, the potentiallity of the coupling is spent and
    consumed in the friendship arena as it does for chapters now.

    Does
    it seem that Hino wants to promote a canon Zeki or just flirts with the
    idea actually diminuishing the chances with extreme delay, when she
    could have shown us two aknowledged couplings.
    Does it seem
    optimistic or rather discouraging for you and the Zeki fans? And isn't
    that another Vampire Knight reality? Zero and Yuuki still in friendship
    mode after so 14 volumes? trying to reset actually what started as
    granded?
    my thoughts exactly juliet. Im also looking forward to the resolution to Yuki's "divided" heart, but she had implied nothing romantic towards zero for the last few chapters and now that she did she says she wanted a RESTART FROM THE BEGINNING. From the beginning I imagine she was talking about their friendship as it was always what they had from the start, and not romance.

    [b]anneliez[/b] wrote:
    1. There is no such thing as 20 chpaters off awkwardness, since
    there is no such a thing as 20 chpaters about zeki. I mean, it's only
    now that they start being around each othet again. Before that time,
    they've seen each other twice. At the ball from afar and when yuuki
    almost bit Zero. And those weren't really the moments to start workin
    on their relationship just yet. Hence, the 20-chapters-awkwardness
    thing, is kind of a false argument.
    there's no need for 20 chapters of zeki to show a hint of Yuki's "romantic feelings" for him, they were given enough screen time and they spent it showing awkwardness and ambiguity.
    she can give a hint she still feels something for him, and a solid one. she did not, and now she's saying she wants a restart that features being friends with him again. that idea doesn't make sense if she planned to love Zero romantically in the first place.
    Like I previously said, the attempts to show she loves him are half-ass instead of a real indication, it always has another meaning that meant friendship rather than love among other things. what they had in those 20 chapters is awkwardness rather than a development that geared toward love , for example in chapter 60 as you said Yuki nearly bit zero but it was also because she considers his blood scent as nostalgic and it could mean she misses him, but not enough to solidify the idea that it was a romantic action. its also not a development in terms of romance since she ran away from that feeling as if she was scared of it. and she showed no signs of regretting running away from that feeling either.

    2. The distance is a step to growing closer together. That
    was the entire point of my post. It is a step that is needed and as I
    just said, it's not going on for as long as it seems. And the
    awkwardness is starting to fade away now. Yuuki is trying to act all
    cheerful around him again.
    thats why I answered that their awkwardness becomes their story instead of their romance. 20 chapters and it was the ONLY thing they did. now you say those 20 chapters were just the beginning? so 20 more for their startover, 20 more for their romance? Yuki has to keep patting Zero for 20 more chapters to heal him since he cant do it himself, and when its vk ending only then Yuki will begin her romance, and that is left open since there's no more space for their "romance", which in essence does not make sense at all logically since for zeki to happen yuki also has to resolve her feelings for kaname.
    in the 1st arc the manga spent 35 chapters on zeki showing nothing but friendship. now there's still no hard indication of romance between them other than what was implied. how is this convincing? it does not even compare to YUME at all, even Zero makes a nonexistent rival to Kaname presently.

    3. There are much more signs for zeki than just the awkwardness. I just
    haven't mentioned them, because that is an entirely other discussion,
    that , as i said before, has been going on for a long time, because
    some people find it enough proof, some don't. That is just the way it
    is.
    if you have proof then show it, after all this thread is to prove whether zeki is over or not.

    chapter 74 was no moment to tell the truth there. There taking a
    step (blood) for moving forward. On that moment they're already on edge.
    There's no point for zero to tell yuuki how he feels. So if she asks
    him to think about something else, he'd want to deny she could see
    anything that has to do with her. Wich is obviously what he's afraid of,
    (remember the 'oi, don't pry into my memories' thing)I agree that lies
    have to stop, but now was not the time yet. And caela has already
    pointed out the importance of the bite.
    this doesnt indicate anything romantic. presently I disagree that its a development for either of them since the bite simply resolved the awkwardness they've spent 20 chapters showing , now that is resolved they can start having more "eased" interactions as yuki thinks it will but thats it, the fact yuki wants to be together as friends seems pretty clear to me that is what she wanted all along, and zero also revealing he had moved on from her technically because of what he said was also pretty clear.
    The funny thing is zekifans seems to keep ignoring the meaning of yuki and zero's thoughts, or what it means in chapter 74. their blood and their thoughts have spoken for what they were "hiding" all along and it was "that".

    His blood did not tell that he doesn't feel for yuuki anymore. It
    didn't teel her anything. Zero is good at hiding his feelings,and he
    stopped yuuki before she could see more. and yuuki asked him to think
    about sth else, even if he denied he could be thining about her, he
    still must've tried nt to think about her.
    his blood told that he does not feel strongly for yuki as much as he did before. he also said he hardly thinks about her anymore. for me that tells a lot what he's been doing for the last few chapters. the others are assumptions not supported


    And there's no proof, that she doesn't love him romantically (i'm
    not saying it's the other way around either) So that's another reason
    why zeki isn't over yet
    the point of the thread is not to canonize a fact that zeki is over, but to prove it is over. Likewise theres no proof that she loves him as a lover.

    juliet wrote:
    (If Kaname and Yuuki have not been married by then)...but you never know.. okay enough with humour check the goodies.
    by the time zeki started that "courting/ dating" phase, yume already have twins.

    krissy wrote:
    I think, that their relationship will start to change as Yuuki is to
    takes on the responsibility to take care of the Night class (VAMPIRES)
    and Zero the Day class (HUMANS). As Yuuki will be drinking Zero's blood
    from now on, definitely, something will happen there. LAST BUT NOT HE
    LEAST, Maria who is now interested in Zero. She will be the one to help
    Yuuki realize her feelings, or something.
    how convenient.
    a first arc REPEAT of the prefects just to make ZEKI happen, otherwise its not going anywhere with so many blockages on their way...
    -zero's immortal hatred, which for some reason, will be eliminated in the end. yuki just have to keep caressing him to decrease it and keep drinking his blood--it will lead to something. And when its gone back to point zero just when he was a kid (lets forget that another zeki here said its trauma, lol), somehow he'll just manage save everyone with his unstable powers, unstable emotions and his unstable level d-e condition, vanquishing everyone even a pureblood.

    zero the emotionally unstable vampire level d-e vampire hunter who lies as a hobby and who hated vampires since he was small and it was considered a trauma for him, saves the world, along with the pureblood he had promised to kill out of his hatred not too long ago. one just has to imagine hard. you can tell this right now, just when yuki starts babysitting him into being his friend again.
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    Re: Do you think ZEKI is over?

    Post by Divine Rose on Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:51 pm

    sweetsolace wrote:@caela


    Okay, again with feeling. I never claimed that Zero was raped.

    you just implied you did here:
    Zero has only experienced being bitten previously by Shizuka Hio, and
    both
    those instances were essentially rape and murder scenes (Shizuka
    even showed physical attraction towards Zero the second time around).
    key word was physical attraction and you said its essentially rape. if it was only intended for non literal use, no need for that attraction

    can you imagine Shizuka having physical attraction towards Zero? that can technically lead to rape .

    Zero does not show any sign that he enjoyed being bitten by Yuuki because he has negative associations with being bitten.
    its questionable.
    in this first place this is a complete assumption, Zero never ONCE said he "doesn't like being bitten". It was implied in his actions (such as Zero clawing his neck in the earlier chapters) but not proven. It is however proven that he hates vampires; everyone knows that.
    There is no other proof why Zero would consider being bitten a trauma, as there were no other instances other than Shizuka and Yuki's. if there was a previous incident then it could serve as proof.
    Zero even let Yuki touch his tattooed neck in chapter 72. As well as get a tattoo made there in the first place. if he was traumatized he would never let it be touched, not even get something done there in the first place.


    In any case, Vampire Knight (VK) canon brings up incest, cannibalism, and murder. I would assume that the future of VK might enter other taboo areas as well.
    you are correct. Kaname was even accused of adultery and majority of the zeki fans have many negative reactions towards his kills.

    To reiterate: I never said that ZEKI is currently happening. I am defending the possibility of Zeki.
    exactly. you are defending it, not canonizing a fact that zeki exists. the point of the thread is to argue if zeki still exists at present.
    the possibility of a future romance is always present in ZEKI like juliet said, but the question is if ZEKI over at present?


    Also, in the thread it was said that if Yuuki would only accept a
    virgin as a boyfriend/spouse, then if Zero was "raped," he no longer
    counts as a virgin and would be rejected by Yuuki.

    Kaname is an ancestor. He has had offspring, babies, progeny. I
    don't think he is still a virgin. In that scenario, Yuuki would also
    reject Kaname.

    if broken "virginity" is the basis for everything then Kain should dump Ruka for being bitten by Kaname.


    I repeat, ZEKI, is not over. Zero never got rejected by Yuuki. Yuuki never told Zero, "This Zeki thing is not happening."
    rejection doesn't need to have a word of confirmation IMO. rejection happened when yuki chose kaname over zero. that's it. Yuki showing no romantic interest towards Zero for the remainder of 20 chapters or more after that is also an indication she has no plans returning his feelings because it doesnt exist for her in the first place IMO.

    Yuki admitting what she truly wanted and Zero revealing the contents of his minds about yuki in chapter 74 shows they have long moved on from each other and that for me is enough proof that there was nothing going on between them other than conflict between friends.

    juliet wrote:
    If Hino does not make the move to further develop Zeki romantically
    in the nearest future, the potentiallity of the coupling is spent and
    consumed in the friendship arena as it does for chapters now.

    Does
    it seem that Hino wants to promote a canon Zeki or just flirts with the
    idea actually diminuishing the chances with extreme delay, when she
    could have shown us two aknowledged couplings.
    Does it seem
    optimistic or rather discouraging for you and the Zeki fans? And isn't
    that another Vampire Knight reality? Zero and Yuuki still in friendship
    mode after so 14 volumes? trying to reset actually what started as
    granded?
    my thoughts exactly juliet. Im also looking forward to the resolution to Yuki's "divided" heart, but she had implied nothing romantic towards zero for the last few chapters and now that she did she says she wanted a RESTART FROM THE BEGINNING. From the beginning I imagine she was talking about their friendship as it was always what they had from the start, and not romance.

    [b]anneliez[/b] wrote:
    1. There is no such thing as 20 chpaters off awkwardness, since
    there is no such a thing as 20 chpaters about zeki. I mean, it's only
    now that they start being around each othet again. Before that time,
    they've seen each other twice. At the ball from afar and when yuuki
    almost bit Zero. And those weren't really the moments to start workin
    on their relationship just yet. Hence, the 20-chapters-awkwardness
    thing, is kind of a false argument.
    there's no need for 20 chapters of zeki to show a hint of Yuki's "romantic feelings" for him, they were given enough screen time and they spent it showing awkwardness and ambiguity.
    she can give a hint she still feels something for him, and a solid one. she did not, and now she's saying she wants a restart that features being friends with him again. that idea doesn't make sense if she planned to love Zero romantically in the first place.
    Like I previously said, the attempts to show she loves him are half-ass instead of a real indication, it always has another meaning that meant friendship rather than love among other things. what they had in those 20 chapters is awkwardness rather than a development that geared toward love , for example in chapter 60 as you said Yuki nearly bit zero but it was also because she considers his blood scent as nostalgic and it could mean she misses him, but not enough to solidify the idea that it was a romantic action. its also not a development in terms of romance since she ran away from that feeling as if she was scared of it. and she showed no signs of regretting running away from that feeling either.

    2. The distance is a step to growing closer together. That
    was the entire point of my post. It is a step that is needed and as I
    just said, it's not going on for as long as it seems. And the
    awkwardness is starting to fade away now. Yuuki is trying to act all
    cheerful around him again.
    thats why I answered that their awkwardness becomes their story instead of their romance. 20 chapters and it was the ONLY thing they did. now you say those 20 chapters were just the beginning? so 20 more for their startover, 20 more for their romance? Yuki has to keep patting Zero for 20 more chapters to heal him since he cant do it himself, and when its vk ending only then Yuki will begin her romance, and that is left open since there's no more space for their "romance", which in essence does not make sense at all logically since for zeki to happen yuki also has to resolve her feelings for kaname.
    in the 1st arc the manga spent 35 chapters on zeki showing nothing but friendship. now there's still no hard indication of romance between them other than what was implied. how is this convincing? it does not even compare to YUME at all, even Zero makes a nonexistent rival to Kaname presently.

    3. There are much more signs for zeki than just the awkwardness. I just
    haven't mentioned them, because that is an entirely other discussion,
    that , as i said before, has been going on for a long time, because
    some people find it enough proof, some don't. That is just the way it
    is.
    if you have proof then show it, after all this thread is to prove whether zeki is over or not.

    chapter 74 was no moment to tell the truth there. There taking a
    step (blood) for moving forward. On that moment they're already on edge.
    There's no point for zero to tell yuuki how he feels. So if she asks
    him to think about something else, he'd want to deny she could see
    anything that has to do with her. Wich is obviously what he's afraid of,
    (remember the 'oi, don't pry into my memories' thing)I agree that lies
    have to stop, but now was not the time yet. And caela has already
    pointed out the importance of the bite.
    this doesnt indicate anything romantic. presently I disagree that its a development for either of them since the bite simply resolved the awkwardness they've spent 20 chapters showing , now that is resolved they can start having more "eased" interactions as yuki thinks it will but thats it, the fact yuki wants to be together as friends seems pretty clear to me that is what she wanted all along, and zero also revealing he had moved on from her technically because of what he said was also pretty clear.
    The funny thing is zekifans seems to keep ignoring the meaning of yuki and zero's thoughts, or what it means in chapter 74. their blood and their thoughts have spoken for what they were "hiding" all along and it was "that".

    His blood did not tell that he doesn't feel for yuuki anymore. It
    didn't teel her anything. Zero is good at hiding his feelings,and he
    stopped yuuki before she could see more. and yuuki asked him to think
    about sth else, even if he denied he could be thining about her, he
    still must've tried nt to think about her.
    his blood told that he does not feel strongly for yuki as much as he did before. he also said he hardly thinks about her anymore. for me that tells a lot what he's been doing for the last few chapters. the others are assumptions not supported


    And there's no proof, that she doesn't love him romantically (i'm
    not saying it's the other way around either) So that's another reason
    why zeki isn't over yet
    the point of the thread is not to canonize a fact that zeki is over, but to prove it is over. Likewise theres no proof that she loves him as a lover.

    juliet wrote:
    (If Kaname and Yuuki have not been married by then)...but you never know.. okay enough with humour check the goodies.
    by the time zeki started that "courting/ dating" phase, yume already have twins.

    krissy wrote:
    I think, that their relationship will start to change as Yuuki is to
    takes on the responsibility to take care of the Night class (VAMPIRES)
    and Zero the Day class (HUMANS). As Yuuki will be drinking Zero's blood
    from now on, definitely, something will happen there. LAST BUT NOT HE
    LEAST, Maria who is now interested in Zero. She will be the one to help
    Yuuki realize her feelings, or something.
    how convenient.
    a first arc REPEAT of the prefects just to make ZEKI happen, otherwise its not going anywhere with so many blockages on their way...
    -zero's immortal hatred, which for some reason, will be eliminated in the end. yuki just have to keep caressing him to decrease it and keep drinking his blood--it will lead to something. And when its gone back to point zero just when he was a kid (lets forget that another zeki here said its trauma, lol), somehow he'll just manage save everyone with his unstable powers, unstable emotions and his unstable level d-e condition, vanquishing everyone even a pureblood.

    zero the emotionally unstable vampire level d-e vampire hunter who lies as a hobby and who hated vampires since he was small and it was considered a trauma for him, saves the world, along with the pureblood he had promised to kill out of his hatred not too long ago. one just has to imagine hard. you can tell this right now, just when yuki starts babysitting him into being his friend again.

    AWESOME post Sweet!

    That last part really mad me laugh. Super hard to imagine!
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    caela
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    Re: Do you think ZEKI is over?

    Post by caela on Wed Sep 21, 2011 4:01 am

    Okay, I'll be busy for the next couple of days. I would normally be back because I have alot of fun discussing VK ideas and debating them and learning other points of view.

    but to be clear...

    RAPE IS NOT FUNNY! RAPE IS AN EVIL CRIME!!!!!
    People in this thread have made jokes about this sensitive topic and I have tried to explain my idea (about being forcibly bitten, and watching your family be killed) and my points in a way that was not salacious and as only a "to-the-fact" sort of style.

    I did not make this clear earlier (like I should have) and I was reminded of it by a recent post, which does not do those things, but I will be addressing said post now before I go back to the studying I should be doing.

    @caela


    Okay, again with feeling. I never claimed that Zero was raped.



    you just implied you did here:

    Zero has only experienced being bitten previously by Shizuka Hio, and
    both those instances were essentially rape and murder scenes (Shizuka
    even showed physical attraction towards Zero the second time around).


    key word was physical attraction and you said its essentially rape. if it was only intended for non literal use, no need for that attraction

    can you imagine Shizuka having physical attraction towards Zero? that can technically lead to rape .
    Zero does not show any sign that he enjoyed being bitten by Yuuki because he has negative associations with being bitten.


    Code:
    its questionable.
    in this first place this is a complete assumption, Zero never ONCE said he "doesn't like being bitten". It was implied in his actions (such as Zero clawing his neck in the earlier chapters) but not proven. It is however proven that he hates vampires; everyone knows that.
    There is no other proof why Zero would consider being bitten a trauma, as there were no other instances other than Shizuka and Yuki's. if there was a previous incident then it could serve as proof.
    Zero even let Yuki touch his tattooed neck in chapter 72. As well as get a tattoo made there in the first place. if he was traumatized he would never let it be touched, not even get something done there in the first place.



    I'm leaving with this because this could be solved with a dictionary, therefore making it a fast argument to deal with.

    This is the definition of the word "essential". (I hope you don't need me to pull the Oxford English dictionary out for the word "rape." Really, I'm seeing red right now because of the number of times i've seen that word this week.. partially my fault but... uuughhh, do you know how easy it is to use a dictionary??? Anyways. . . ) Oxford English is the gold standard for your word look-up needs according to my professor.

    essential /ɪˈsɛnʃ(ə)l/
    ▶adjective

    1 absolutely necessary; extremely important.

    2 central to the nature of something; fundamental: the essential weakness of the plaintiff's case.

    3 (of an amino acid or fatty acid) required for normal growth but not synthesized in the body and therefore necessary in the diet.

    4 Medicine (of a disease) with no known external stimulus or cause; idiopathic.

    "essentially rape", meaning matching the intrinsic nature of rape, not the physical equivalent. I put this sentence in spoiler form so that people who are sensitive to adult topics won't see it.
    Spoiler:
    That situation matched the essential nature of rape with the elements of coercion (forcing someone against their will) and sexual attraction.


    Zero even let Yuki touch his tattooed neck in chapter 72. As well as get a tattoo made there in the first place. if he was traumatized he would never let it be touched, not even get something done there in the first place.

    Also, being touched on the the neck versus being bitten: I know which one I would rather endure. If you think both are the same, I know a place with lots of mosquitoes that you'll enjoy the company of.

    Also, he's the one who put the pressure on his own neck; yuuki was not the one. If you can't tickle yourself (I haven't tried but good luck doing it on yourself) you really can't be surprised by placing a foreign object (i.e. her arm) on your own neck.

    The tattoo argument: Yes, getting a tattoo on your neck must be a painful experience, even without the trauma that I theorized that Zero through.

    The length of time it took for Zero to become a full fledged vampire from the bite, 4 years, was remarkable enough that Kaname complimented Zero's willpower to the chairman (some early chapter). At the same time, a bite does feel different from a tattoo, one point versus two.

    Also Zero, even as a kid, was training to be a hunter. Pain probably comes with everyday training.

    The tattoo also had the benefit of controlling his vampire urges (this reference would take me awhile to find)

    I've also explained that my theory WAS NOT CANON. First two sentences from my post on September 18th, 2011

    The "rape" is not canon. It's a theory of mine to explain the chapter 74 bite scene.


    Its just my theory. I can only go as far to say that it fits in with the story, but until I get that special fan trophy shaped like Zero from Hino-san, its still a theory.

    another thing/ another post: I'm paraphrasing a post from the thread, "You gave no evidence but I don't agree with what you wrote here and here" Um, I gave evidence, and that's the stuff you don't agree with. You can say that you don't agree with it, but don't pretend I didn't write any evidence. I suggest you edit your post.

    I liked most of the posts (REALLY) and am looking forward to getting to the others. Sorry I don't have the time to highlight the other arguments right now!!! I'm also looking forward to Chapter 75.





    Last edited by caela on Wed Sep 21, 2011 11:54 am; edited 1 time in total
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    sweetsolace
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    Re: Do you think ZEKI is over?

    Post by sweetsolace on Wed Sep 21, 2011 11:51 am

    caela wrote:

    RAPE IS NOT FUNNY! RAPE IS AN EVIL CRIME!!!!!
    People in this thread have made jokes about this sensitive topic and I have tried to explain my idea (about being forcibly bitten, and watching your family be killed) and my points in a way that was not salacious and as only a "to-the-fact" sort of style.

    I did not make this clear earlier (like I should have) and I was reminded of it by a recent post, which does not do those things, but I will be addressing said post now before I go back to the studying I should be doing.

    @caela


    Okay, again with feeling. I never claimed that Zero was raped.



    you just implied you did here:

    Zero has only experienced being bitten previously by Shizuka Hio, and
    both those instances were essentially rape and murder scenes (Shizuka
    even showed physical attraction towards Zero the second time around).


    key word was physical attraction and you said its essentially rape. if it was only intended for non literal use, no need for that attraction

    can you imagine Shizuka having physical attraction towards Zero? that can technically lead to rape .
    Zero does not show any sign that he enjoyed being bitten by Yuuki because he has negative associations with being bitten.


    Code:
    its questionable.
    in this first place this is a complete assumption, Zero never ONCE said he "doesn't like being bitten". It was implied in his actions (such as Zero clawing his neck in the earlier chapters) but not proven. It is however proven that he hates vampires; everyone knows that.
    There is no other proof why Zero would consider being bitten a trauma, as there were no other instances other than Shizuka and Yuki's. if there was a previous incident then it could serve as proof.
    Zero even let Yuki touch his tattooed neck in chapter 72. As well as get a tattoo made there in the first place. if he was traumatized he would never let it be touched, not even get something done there in the first place.



    I'm leaving with this because this could be solved with a dictionary, therefore making it a fast argument to deal with.

    This is the definition of the word "essential". (I hope you don't need me to pull the Oxford English dictionary out for the word "rape." Really, I'm seeing red right now because of the number of times i've seen that word this week. That's partially my fault. Hopefully your post is the last one that brings this up because otherwise I'm going to need my grandpa's heart meds. I will not be treating this post gently because of the above reasoning, its not personal; I just really don't want to see that word again. ) Oxford English is the gold standard for your word look-up needs according to my professor.

    essential /ɪˈsɛnʃ(ə)l/
    ▶adjective

    1 absolutely necessary; extremely important.

    2 central to the nature of something; fundamental: the essential weakness of the plaintiff's case.

    3 (of an amino acid or fatty acid) required for normal growth but not synthesized in the body and therefore necessary in the diet.

    4 Medicine (of a disease) with no known external stimulus or cause; idiopathic.

    I know what you really meant but don't try to deny that you weren't responsible for their "misinterpretations ". Moreover telling people to grab a dictionary for something you failed to do in the first place when you used the word RAPE is just passing the blame.

    Moreover, I just said that I got the impression you implied it was RAPE what Shizuka did to Zero because of the words "essentially" and "physical attraction", the latter one being your invention since there was nothing like that with Shizuka (otherwise she'd be a pedo now ), YOU'RE THE ONE who put this words, not me. I know what I should take literally and what I shouldn't, one of that is your post.

    Also, being touched on the the neck versus being bitten: I know
    which one I would rather endure. If you think both are the same, I
    know a place with lots of mosquitoes that you'll enjoy the company of.

    you should get a psychology book instead of a dictionary to see what TRAUMA is. Trauma victims reaction to having someone else touch the affected part is important.
    They have timid or guarding symptoms associated to whatever causes the trigger to that trauma.

    from wikipedia

    ....After a traumatic experience, a person may re-experience the trauma mentally and physically, hence avoiding trauma reminders, also called triggers, as this can be uncomfortable and even painful.

    trauma victims AVOID anything that REMIND them of the traumatic incident. In this case the incident is the bite, anything associated to the bite like touching his neck is INCLUDED.

    Now.
    in chapter 72, Zero was the one who forcefully and rudely grabbed Yuki's wrist to point it at his tat, a.k.a. his neck. If he is truly a traumatized person he would not do anything at all that can remind him of that bite, and will even cover his neck area so it is "protected" from any physical contact. He does none of this "protective" actions and he never did, in fact he had no trouble letting someone else touch his neck.
    In Chapter 40.1 (""a secret I dont know"") Zero had a tattoo imprinted on his neck, and there was no word of complaint or trouble at all that he put up a fight while this was being done, again another indication that he had no problem with his neck area.
    In chapter 21 pg8, when Yuki fake-bite him, instead of a strong, exaggerated or repulsed reaction usually common with traumatized people when they RELIVE the same experience, Zero stares, he says What?, and then he yanks Yuki away, putting her out of the room---a pretty normal and calm reaction that speaks more of annoyance than an actual trauma. Zero's reactions lacked the intensity that should be present if that bite incident really affected him.

    And here's a better proof for all this baseless belief. Shizuka herself gives Zero another taste of his life-changing "trauma"
    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/vampire_knight/v04/c018/16.html
    and yet instead of making him more depressed as he had to relive that again, he's actually more empowered, see how he managed to break out of Shizuka's hold and shoot himself.

    if this is the reason that keeps being reused as if to enlarge Zero's "suffering" then Im starting to believe that zekifans are getting desperate for reasons

    You can say that you don't agree with it, but don't pretend I didn't write any evidence. I suggest you edit your post.

    because you didn't. your "evidences" were your opinion on how a scene should be interpreted.
    Saying Shizuka "raped" Zero and caused his trauma has no basis, unless you saw an offscreen page where it happened. affraid
    Saying I shouldn't compare being touched and being bitten because they're not the same and then supporting that by saying you'll take me to a place with mosquitoes to get bitten is not only a laughable and childish challenge, but proves nothing except your inability to provide solid proofs from the manga which is where we derive all this.
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    caela
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    Re: Do you think ZEKI is over?

    Post by caela on Wed Sep 21, 2011 1:03 pm

    I know what you really meant but don't try to deny that you weren't responsible for their "misinterpretations ". Moreover telling people to grab a dictionary for something you failed to do in the first place when you used the word RAPE is just passing the blame.

    At grade level do you think a person would be responsible for the word, "essentially"? You would actually be the wrong person to ask that question since you are still translating it to mean "equals."

    Anyone can slip up in understanding a word or two in these long passages we write each other. BUT I GAVE YOU A DICTIONARY REFERENCE!

    After I gave it to you, you still refuse to understand the situation. That leaves two options. You are being stubborn because you refuse to give anything to a ZEKI.

    (I know why I and many other Zekis have negative ratings on this forum.)

    The other option is that you are not intelligent enough. I don't think you are dumb. Your tattoo argument was very good. So, believe me, take the first option.

    Moreover, I just said that I got the impression you implied it was RAPE what Shizuka did to Zero because of the words "essentially" and "physical attraction", the latter one being your invention since there was nothing like that with Shizuka (otherwise she'd be a pedo now ), YOU'RE THE ONE who put this words, not me. I know what I should take literally and what I shouldn't, one of that is your post.

    Check out the last few pages of chapter 13. There is physical attraction on her part.

    BTW Again, where did I say zero was raped? I suggest you cut and paste it because in all your posts I still don't see it.

    you should get a psychology book instead of a dictionary to see what TRAUMA is. Trauma victims reaction to having someone else touch the affected part is important.
    They have timid or guarding symptoms associated to whatever causes the trigger to that trauma.

    from wikipedia

    ....After a traumatic experience, a person may re-experience the trauma mentally and physically, hence avoiding trauma reminders, also called triggers, as this can be uncomfortable and even painful.


    trauma victims AVOID anything that REMIND them of the traumatic incident. In this case the incident is the bite, anything associated to the bite like touching his neck is INCLUDED.

    I've taken psychology COURSES. Wikipedia is not a scholarly resource. Have you tried writing a college paper with wikipedia as a reference? That's an automatic fail for some classes. Wikipedia is not trusted by professors

    Manifestation of trauma varies between individuals! People range from not troubled at all to suicidal/homicidal.

    You can say that you don't agree with it, but don't pretend I didn't write any evidence. I suggest you edit your post.

    You do realize I wasn't talking about you here, right?

    And here's a better proof for all this baseless belief. Shizuka herself gives Zero another taste of his life-changing "trauma" (deleted link)
    and yet instead of making him more depressed as he had to relive that again, he's actually more empowered, see how he managed to break out of Shizuka's hold and shoot himself.


    Nice point. If it were true that all people with trauma showed the same symptoms and signs, I would be forced to agree with your point.

    Saying I shouldn't compare being touched and being bitten because they're not the same and then supporting that by saying you'll take me to a place with mosquitoes to get bitten is not only a laughable and childish challenge, but proves nothing except your inability to provide solid proofs from the manga which is where we derive all this.

    How is using mosquitoes as real world creatures that suck blood as a stand-in for a vampire laughable or childish?

    By the way, if I were as without ability as you claim, you wouldn't even bother posting something directed to me, because that would waste your time.

    I shouldn't have to use manga to prove that touching is different from biting. They are different words that mean different things. Are you trying to say that Zero would not be able to tell a tattoo tool, which has one point, from a vampire bite, which has two points? A tattoo is only for the top of the skin and a vampire bite has to hit deep enough for a vein or an artery.

    Anyways, gotta go. Good night















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    Re: Do you think ZEKI is over?

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