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    the Morality and Ethics of the Hunters (chapter 75)

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    sweetsolace
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    the Morality and Ethics of the Hunters (chapter 75)

    Post by sweetsolace on Sat Sep 24, 2011 7:36 am

    affraid affraid affraid affraid affraid


    the hunters AGREED with Kaname killing all purebloods!!!

    Apparently only Kaien does not agree with them

    from chapter 75 translation-witlessfool

    Page 4:
    Yagari: Because there’s something that we need to say that cannot be heard within the walls of the Association’s headquarters.

    Page 6:
    Yagori: We don’t share the President’s viewpoints. We hope Kaname Kuran can continue what he’s doing.
    Therefore... we feel, this time, his individual actions will only get in the way.

    Page 24:
    Kaname: As the President of the Vampire Hunter Association, you should have no problems with my actions, Kaien Cross.

    Page 25:
    Kaien: Huh, I have no wish to see the destruction of the purebloods.
    (Kaname collapses into a horde of bats)
    Kaname...!

    Page 28:
    Kaito: Whatever. If Kaname Kuran was to destroy the purebloods, then our wishes would be fulfilled.
    Chairman... If he was to know about this, he would be very saddened.
    Kaito (con’t): You, also, don’t try to interfere. Although I’m saying this, in reality, you can’t do anything but stay here.
    Don’t
    know what that rascal’s aims are. And we also don’t know much about the
    anti-vampire weapon he’s wielding. But it’s clear that no matter what,
    you will be spared.
    To spare a pureblood who’s sympathetic to humankind is not a bad thing. As long as it’s just one person.

    I thought hunters are supposed to serve as defenders of justice no matter what kind and NOW they are on the same league as Kaname (technically)!!

    What does that say of their morality? Kaname in the past had been ACCUSED AND PERSECUTED for his crimes by fans, NOW the hunters are AGREEING to this SAME ACTS of KILLING PUREBLOODS. What does that tell you? What does that tell of vampire knight?

    I cannot resist saying this, but the ones who BASHED Kaname for killing purebloods, I believe, have eaten their own words to try and incriminate him due his deeds

    lol. Ok so who's going to say killing is bad? Apparently not only Kaname likes doing it.

    Yuki and Kaien are the only ones shown to be interested in peace and non-violence now. In my opinion, as my opinion in the beginning, vampire knight is dark and has many violence warranted and unwarranted. It was not surprising for me the hunters would think this way, but in my opinion it was still shocking to find out they were even holding some sort of conspiracy against their president (Kaien) for having different views than the rest of them.
    The morality and ethics of the hunters, I think, and always thought since the start, lies on their job and what their job entailed them to do. They work on protocol of their job, not morality. As long as they get an easy way of handling things, IT DOESN'T MATTER if its wrong or right. example would be how Yagari treated the wiping out of the council-- the only thing that mattered for him was that the level e's were on the loose and they would have more jobs to do, something he complained to Kaname, rather than arresting him for doing the crime. Another thing is their basis for taking out purebloods is almost NIL, not even executed, they simply DON'T DO ANYTHING towards Purebloods, nor do they take appropriate action towards them. The vampires seem to do more in terms of worrying. example would be their actions towards Sara Shirabuki seemed to have stopped, or ignored, when Kaname started killing purebloods.[i]
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    Re: the Morality and Ethics of the Hunters (chapter 75)

    Post by Divine Rose on Sat Sep 24, 2011 8:12 am

    sweetsolace wrote:affraid affraid affraid affraid affraid


    the hunters AGREED with Kaname killing all purebloods!!!

    Apparently only Kaien does not agree with them

    from chapter 75 translation-witlessfool

    Page 4:
    Yagari: Because there’s something that we need to say that cannot be heard within the walls of the Association’s headquarters.

    Page 6:
    Yagori: We don’t share the President’s viewpoints. We hope Kaname Kuran can continue what he’s doing.
    Therefore... we feel, this time, his individual actions will only get in the way.

    Page 24:
    Kaname: As the President of the Vampire Hunter Association, you should have no problems with my actions, Kaien Cross.

    Page 25:
    Kaien: Huh, I have no wish to see the destruction of the purebloods.
    (Kaname collapses into a horde of bats)
    Kaname...!

    Page 28:
    Kaito: Whatever. If Kaname Kuran was to destroy the purebloods, then our wishes would be fulfilled.
    Chairman... If he was to know about this, he would be very saddened.
    Kaito (con’t): You, also, don’t try to interfere. Although I’m saying this, in reality, you can’t do anything but stay here.
    Don’t
    know what that rascal’s aims are. And we also don’t know much about the
    anti-vampire weapon he’s wielding. But it’s clear that no matter what,
    you will be spared.
    To spare a pureblood who’s sympathetic to humankind is not a bad thing. As long as it’s just one person.

    I thought hunters are supposed to serve as defenders of justice no matter what kind and NOW they are on the same league as Kaname (technically)!!

    What does that say of their morality? Kaname in the past had been ACCUSED AND PERSECUTED for his crimes by fans, NOW the hunters are AGREEING to this SAME ACTS of KILLING PUREBLOODS. What does that tell you? What does that tell of vampire knight?

    I cannot resist saying this, but the ones who BASHED Kaname for killing purebloods, I believe, have eaten their own words to try and incriminate him due his deeds

    lol. Ok so who's going to say killing is bad? Apparently not only Kaname likes doing it.

    Yuki and Kaien are the only ones shown to be interested in peace and non-violence now. In my opinion, as my opinion in the beginning, vampire knight is dark and has many violence warranted and unwarranted. It was not surprising for me the hunters would think this way, but in my opinion it was still shocking to find out they were even holding some sort of conspiracy against their president (Kaien) for having different views than the rest of them.
    The morality and ethics of the hunters, I think, and always thought since the start, lies on their job and what their job entailed them to do. They work on protocol of their job, not morality. As long as they get an easy way of handling things, IT DOESN'T MATTER if its wrong or right. example would be how Yagari treated the wiping out of the council-- the only thing that mattered for him was that the level e's were on the loose and they would have more jobs to do, something he complained to Kaname, rather than arresting him for doing the crime. Another thing is their basis for taking out purebloods is almost NIL, not even executed, they simply DON'T DO ANYTHING towards Purebloods, nor do they take appropriate action towards them. The vampires seem to do more in terms of worrying. example would be their actions towards Sara Shirabuki seemed to have stopped, or ignored, when Kaname started killing purebloods.[i]

    Yeah, Kaname is not so much of a criminal, huh? rofl rofl

    It is shocking about the hunters, but then it isn't. LOL Yeah, they're supposed to be defenders of justice, but I never truly seen it. rofl rofl rofl rofl
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    Re: the Morality and Ethics of the Hunters (chapter 75)

    Post by Knightmare on Sat Sep 24, 2011 8:44 am

    All the hunters are idiots. I'm highly disappointed with their attitude and actions this chapter. this is bordering on the ridiculous.

    Yagari telling Yuuki their plans to go against her father? uh, why avoid discussing it at the association then??
    Yagari and the hunters gathering at the vampire school to discuss their desire for all the pureblood vampires to die.
    Kaito making exception for Yuuki? does he not think anyone else might be worthy?

    Their reasoning is the worst.
    there are less than 30 purebloods left and most of them were sleeping/not doing anything. they are meant to need the purebloods to control the rest of the vampires, who otherwise out of control cause a lot of trouble for humans. what happened to prosecuting and chasing people who are guilty of actual crimes? What is their sudden reasoning for this? because a pureblood kills themselves using a hunter in the process? didn't Kaname get blamed for this? Or do they not care about that anymore? Actually, I think everyone forgot about that hunter's death. what are they going to do about Kaname then?

    i'm glad Yuuki was annoyed that she was the only one they would spare and thinking her situation would be dangerous and at their whim. but I wish she'd spare a bit more thought for the other purebloods, she mostly only seems out to stop Kaname on principal.
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    Re: the Morality and Ethics of the Hunters (chapter 75)

    Post by juliet on Sat Sep 24, 2011 11:13 am

    Knightmare wrote:

    Their reasoning is the worst.
    there are less than 30 purebloods left and most of them were sleeping/not doing anything. they are meant to need the purebloods to control the rest of the vampires, who otherwise out of control cause a lot of trouble for humans. what happened to prosecuting and chasing people who are guilty of actual crimes? What is their sudden reasoning for this? because a pureblood kills themselves using a hunter in the process? didn't Kaname get blamed for this? Or do they not care about that anymore? Actually, I think everyone forgot about that hunter's death. what are they going to do about Kaname then?

    i'm glad Yuuki was annoyed that she was the only one they would spare and thinking her situation would be dangerous and at their whim. but I wish she'd spare a bit more thought for the other purebloods, she mostly only seems out to stop Kaname on principal.

    In this chapter the hunters revealed their true face/ their insticts I would call them supressed, it goes beyond reasoning. It's dangerous because it can be exploited - and its easily manipulated > thus what Asato was doing with the former president under the rest of the HA nose.

    So now that Zero, the hunters and Kaname have all entered the grey zone and its far more difficult to distinguish the evil and the wrong from the good and the justified, who is right? and who is wrong?

    In order for Hino to presents such low ethics for the hunters they must be a reason and not solely in order to back up Kaname and his actions. Perhaps a part of the problem is not just the purebloods (who ironically now -are the preys) but also the hunters.
    And we see that their problematic behaviour is instantly expressed once Kaname gives them a perfect excuse.
    So perhaps its time that they also unleash their true desires, so that the real problems start revealing?






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    Re: the Morality and Ethics of the Hunters (chapter 75)

    Post by ckaien on Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:40 pm

    I have to admit when I read sagakures statement about the mutiny I was speechless that Yagari said it! What the hell! I cried becdause felt right there yagari revealed he nevere cared about kaien. Ever. Kaien had a friend in yaggles. What happened??????
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    Re: the Morality and Ethics of the Hunters (chapter 75)

    Post by juliet on Sat Sep 24, 2011 5:43 pm

    ckaien wrote:I have to admit when I read sagakures statement about the mutiny I was speechless that Yagari said it! What the hell! I cried becdause felt right there yagari revealed he nevere cared about kaien. Ever. Kaien had a friend in yaggles. What happened??????


    M...Hunters are leaving Kaien and his ideal exposed here, Yagari might be close with kaien but his priority now is not to lose the golden opportunity and have all purebloods killed.

    It does not mean that Yagari does not care for kaien on a personal level, I guess an ideology is an ideology (for hunters is presented to be something more as a natural tendency).

    The question is; is Kaien going to stand alone? without the suppport of the HA, only Yuuki is left to share his effort for no bloodshed.

    Perhaps once he leaves without supporters to realize that he has to let Yuuki go despite his wish.
    On the other hand the issue with the co-existence and Kaien's pacifism worries me. What is going to remain of his ideologies? it seemed that they had no real application/ what is Kaien going to do now? There is a great surprise for him coming.







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    Re: the Morality and Ethics of the Hunters (chapter 75)

    Post by Akaruisama on Sat Sep 24, 2011 8:17 pm

    juliet wrote:


    On the other hand the issue with the co-existence and Kaien's pacifism worries me. What is going to remain of his ideologies? it seemed that they had no real application/ what is Kaien going to do now? There is a great surprise for him coming.


    I agree in that statement. His ideals are extremely difficult to force into life. He can stay alone with no one, except Yuuki on his side. It seems there is no hope left for victory in this battle, his action may only do things worse than there are now. And why?

    Perhaps Caien do it because of his personal reasons. Killing of all purebloods had been his aim, but he has changed his mind after Yuuri interrogation. He can blame himself for killing vampires and do it, trying to atone for his sins and it is a reason he is not going to throw his pacifism away, no matter how dangerous situation would be.

    I think his memories about Yuuri influences his behaviour now. He doesn't want to see death of such wonderful people like Yuuri and Haruka have been.
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    Re: the Morality and Ethics of the Hunters (chapter 75)

    Post by Knightmare on Sat Sep 24, 2011 11:34 pm

    Rima:We might have a lifespan that’s so much longer than a human’s and much stronger powers. But apart from the reputation of nobles, we really have nothing to protect ourselves.

    juliet wrote:
    So now that Zero, the hunters and Kaname have all entered the grey zone and its far more difficult to distinguish the evil and the wrong from the good and the justified, who is right? and who is wrong?
    Kaien and Rima are right. Yuuki to a lesser extent, but she hasn't expressed an actual stance on the matter. It should be wrong to kill vampires. You don't kill all dogs because some dogs attack people. Its wrong to punish the vampires who can control themselves and keep others under control.

    Let's face it, the purebloods are useless and powerless. The troublemakers should be taken care of, but the others are harmless. And no, you don't have to wait until they've caused a terrible amount of trouble, but there's less than 30 of them, it doesn't take much to keep tabs on them!

    The reality is, this plot is stupid. Kaname's actions should have provoked a war from the other purebloods. purebloods should be turning hunters left right and center and attacking the threat on them. they should be mobilising their under vampires and attacking Kaname's. They're doing nothing. They can't even defend themselves, so the motivation to kill them based on "experience" is bull.

    I don't really buy true desires being the motivation, because hunters desires is about doing the hunting and killing of vampires themselves, finding enjoyment in that is what disgusted kaien back in ch45. This is about seeing a reason for wiping out purebloods that doesn't cut the mustard.

    Individuals have reasons for it:
    Kaien thought he could break the curse on himself if all the Kurans were dead.
    Zero's life was messed up by purebloods who took everything away from him and he wanted to end that, driven by a personal rage.
    Kaname had a lifetime of experience and wars with other purebloods, awarded a mission to stop all the purebloods who were turning all these humans into vampires.

    Having reasons for it, doesn't make it right, I'm just saying the hunters are stupid cos their acting like a pack of sheep and suddenly the reasonable yagari is leading the charge. ok they just want to be passive and let kaname do what he wants, but where's their logic and why are they so naive to trust a pureblood?

    juliet wrote:
    The question is; is Kaien going to stand alone? without the suppport of the HA, only Yuuki is left to share his effort for no bloodshed.

    Perhaps once he leaves without supporters to realize that he has to let Yuuki go despite his wish.
    On the other hand the issue with the co-existence and Kaien's pacifism worries me. What is going to remain of his ideologies? it seemed that they had no real application/ what is Kaien going to do now? There is a great surprise for him coming.
    Kaien's pacificism is fine, the thing is, you can't expect change in a day or even a year, not when its about attitudes. As long as Kaien knows that, he'll continue, whether or not he's in a position of power amoung the hunters, he did spend 15 years pursuing it already. the problem with kaien's pacifism stance, is that he's not a philosopher or charismatic leader, he can't argue or change a person's mind on a personal level like Juuri could. too much of a comedic character. so when it comes to characters like zero, he just walks away from someone who just disagrees. maybe yuuki can be that person one day, but she's not anywhere near it yet.

    the way this story goes is that Yuuki will stand behind kaien, she's the only one who can stop kaname anyway. and Zero will also be on their side, because he will choose to protect yuuki over his beliefs, he's definitely going down that path, deny as he might for now.

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    Re: the Morality and Ethics of the Hunters (chapter 75)

    Post by blackfox on Sun Sep 25, 2011 12:10 am

    ughh the hunters are so full of bs right now. I just dont get why they hate the vampires so much. Did they forget that they have some vampire blood in them to. There just as bad as some of the vampires, they also enjoy the thought of all the pbs being dead, there just as ruthless. What makes them different for having innocent vampires be killed. Plus I wonder why its ok if a human cant be held responsible for killing a vampire, and its thought of as good.
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    Re: the Morality and Ethics of the Hunters (chapter 75)

    Post by Akaruisama on Sun Sep 25, 2011 12:44 am

    blackfox wrote:ughh the hunters are so full of bs right now. I just dont get why they hate the vampires so much. Did they forget that they have some vampire blood in them to. There just as bad as some of the vampires, they also enjoy the thought of all the pbs being dead, there just as ruthless. What makes them different for having innocent vampires be killed. Plus I wonder why its ok if a human cant be held responsible for killing a vampire, and its thought of as good.


    I don't think it's like that. This hating of purebloods is totally understandable for me.
    Hunters kill vampires every day, they see Level-E who cannot take responibility of their action because of blood lust. They also witness all that suffering which purebloods are caused. It is natural for them to consider the death of all purebloods us a good resolve.
    Of course, they should have more humanity and compassion as they hate vampires for lack of them. It is hard to forgive someone who killed or could kill your dearest like in Zero or Kaito case. (I know Kaito killed his brother himself, but he had not been force to do that, if a pureblood would has not changed his brother into vampire)

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    Re: the Morality and Ethics of the Hunters (chapter 75)

    Post by blackfox on Sun Sep 25, 2011 1:36 am

    ya i get what you mean especially about zero and kaito. I guess what i really meant was what you said about them having some compassion. I just dont understand why they can tolerate some vampires but they dont think of them as equal. Well i dont know if kaito thinks of zero that way, he seems to think of him as an equal.
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    Re: the Morality and Ethics of the Hunters (chapter 75)

    Post by RedSonja on Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:35 pm

    can someone plz tell me where is chapter 75??i cant find it!
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    Re: the Morality and Ethics of the Hunters (chapter 75)

    Post by juliet on Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:15 pm

    RavenBlack wrote:can someone plz tell me where is chapter 75??i cant find it!

    Check

    first the post here about the raws http://vampireknight.all-up.com/t875p50-vampire-knight-chapter-full-75-raws-link-to-mini-summary-and-75-preview#17047

    and here the translation that witlessfool posted

    http://vampireknight.all-up.com/t879p20-chapter-75-translation#17095






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    Re: the Morality and Ethics of the Hunters (chapter 75)

    Post by juliet on Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:39 pm

    I don't really buy true desires being the motivation, because hunters desires is about doing the hunting and killing of vampires themselves, finding enjoyment in that is what disgusted kaien back in ch45. This is about seeing a reason for wiping out purebloods that doesn't cut the mustard.

    Individuals have reasons for it:
    Kaien thought he could break the curse on himself if all the Kurans were dead.
    Zero's life was messed up by purebloods who took everything away from him and he wanted to end that, driven by a personal rage.
    Kaname had a lifetime of experience and wars with other purebloods, awarded a mission to stop all the purebloods who were turning all these humans into vampires.

    Having reasons for it, doesn't make it right, I'm just saying the hunters are stupid cos their acting like a pack of sheep and suddenly the reasonable yagari is leading the charge. ok they just want to be passive and let kaname do what he wants, but where's their logic and why are they so naive to trust a pureblood?

    Do not underestimate the killing insticts of the hunters, Hino has already backed up their motives for actually wanting Kaname to kill the purebloods; (I posted that to another thread but it also fits here more)



    Spoiler:

    Spoiler:
    Spoiler:

    Kaito: Whatever. If Kaname Kuran was to destroy the purebloods, then our wishes would be fulfilled.

    So Kaname's provides the golden opportunity for them/ if the Hunter's wish is fulfilled with the extermination of purebloods then kaito's sayings betray the reality of the hunters nature that lasted ten thousand years and eventually has not changed.

    Let's not forget that hunters can be controlled by purebloods (that's how Ouri was killed), and the purebloods are the ones that the fear most.

    It's even confirmed when Kaname challenges Kaien into remembering his hunter insticts by telling him that he should not mind Kaname's plans and actually tosses Touma at Kaien's feet.

    For me it's a clear point; Vampire hunters do hate purebloods ( all vampires- but purebloods are considered sacred, unreachable, strongest) and here they are revealing their nature.

    It's only now when Kaname steps out of the leadership that they find the gap of power to step in and fulfill their wished through Kaname...

    Up to this moment we all considered that the Kuran familly held the vampire world in balance (due the anti-vampire) and controlled it, but now we see that the balance that kept co-existence alive was not only targeted at the vampires/ but also at the hunters.

    This this the main issue in Rima's words;

    But humans can kill vampires with no legal consequence. And to casually push out a relatively unknown new blood tablet.
    We might have a lifespan that’s so much longer than a human’s and much stronger powers. But apart from the reputation of nobles, we really have nothing to protect ourselves. If only the Senate had better used their powers...
    The reason for my bitter thoughts...
    (Image of Kaname's back) is because the king of the purebloods have already betrayed us vampires...
    [/quote]

    This is why the vampires also feel betrayed by Kaname right now, not only because he appears to have turned against his own race, but because he leaves his own race uncovered to the intentions of others...since in killing vampires there is no formal laws

    (how can they be? humans are unaware of the existence of vampires, who will ask a hunter why he killed a vampire? and try to attribute justice?)

    So there is a great issue here that sunddenly appears; the natural insticts of the hunters in a way prevent co-existence because they not allow trust to bloom.

    Apparently there is a problematic behaviour here.

    Why to trust Kaname? they do not, they will allow him to do the killings and then as it appears by their intention to kill them ALL, they will also kill him.

    That's their true intention, but I believe that they are also playing in kaname's game, this is the start, and apparently Kaname will take use of their insticts.

    I suspect that their behavior had been already predicted in the note that Isaya received. (where it says that the reputation of the hunters will go bad). If so there is a game running underneath.



    Last edited by juliet on Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:44 pm; edited 1 time in total






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    Re: the Morality and Ethics of the Hunters (chapter 75)

    Post by aya-chan on Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:39 pm

    Hunters have no moral or ethics. and you can believe yagari and kaito was/is ethic teachers affraid

    In first arc, when yagari found out kaname killed the council he was outrageus, he even pointed the gun at kaname and mumbled things like "the council kept others vampires under control". yagari had a lot of ethic then.

    Now, when kaname is killing purebloods, the hunters,except kaien are happy with that and even conspire against the hunters president. guess hunters ethic flew out the window rofl
    Apparently hunters have ethic or morals only when's convinient for them.
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    Re: the Morality and Ethics of the Hunters (chapter 75)

    Post by RedSonja on Sun Sep 25, 2011 8:27 pm

    i think that the hunters see their duty as a curse(i dont blame them) and if they want to be freed then it doesnt matter for them if all pbs are killed....also, we dont know the others hunters point of view since only yagari said that he hopes kaname to keep doing what he is doing,but i dont think they will think any different..... geek
    they dont care about vampires cause they beleive that they are only bloodsucking creatures,so they dont actually feel obliged to stop the one who is exterminating them.
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    Re: the Morality and Ethics of the Hunters (chapter 75)

    Post by nina on Sun Sep 25, 2011 8:36 pm

    sweetsolace wrote: the hunters AGREED with Kaname killing all purebloods!!!

    What does that say of their morality? Kaname in the past had been ACCUSED AND PERSECUTED for his crimes by fans, NOW the hunters are AGREEING to this SAME ACTS of KILLING PUREBLOODS. What does that tell you? What does that tell of vampire knight?

    I cannot resist saying this, but the ones who BASHED Kaname for killing purebloods, I believe, haveeaten their own words to try and incriminate him due his deeds

    ROFL … I have to admit sweet that this thread is very tempting for me lol. But I’ll try to restrain myself haha …

    Indeed many times a questionable and double standard “morality” has been used with the intention to bash Kaname even if is so obvious that VK’s world has its own code of ethics and the characters, their actions or their desires can’t be judged using our humanistic measures. It’s proven triumphantly that our norms do not necessarily apply on VK (incest, killings, lustful desires etc).
    But FINALLY the masks have dropped! I’m not either so surprised from the revelation of the hunters’ rationale (for me it was obvious that their “lawful” stance was only a pretense), rather than from the straightforward way that Hino/Kaname unhooded them.

    So IF Kaname is a serial killer; what the hunters are since they almost cheering Kaname’s doings? Who is the ANTAGONIST NOW? Haha …
    Where it’s gone their LAW and their legitimate list?

    I have said many-many times in the past that their list existed mostly for the hunters … it had the role to restrain and keep in check them from their urge to kill vampires. Their laws were inefficient since for example Sara could turn humans into vampires as she wished and with their “blessings” lol.
    Also their judgment have been proved wrong in the past since were they who have elected the previous corrupted president … who supported him and never realized his ill-doings ... who were ready to kill the innocent NC etc!

    Now is more obvious that ever that the actualization of a TRUE co-existence requires the reformation not only of the vampires but of the hunters as well who as it seems they never believed in this idea. Cuz even if the PBs cease to exist who can ensure that the hunters won’t proceed on killing the nobles next; and so on?
    How much longevity would have their mutual agreement for co-existence and cooperation when in reality only Kaien from their part believed in it? Kaname has been accused that he broke the contract and that he didn’t cooperate with the hunters … So now arises the question, what for?

    Juliet wrote: In order for Hino to presents such low ethics for the hunters they must be a reason and not solely in order to back up Kaname and his actions. Perhaps a part of the problem is not just the purebloods (who ironically now -are the preys) but also the hunters.
    And we see that their problematic behaviour is instantly expressed once Kaname gives them a perfect excuse.
    So perhaps its time that they also unleash their true desires, so that the real problems start revealing?

    Exactly Juliet! And Hino (through Kaname) has already hinted this problem in the past as well >>>
    Kaname: “The position of the leader may have moved on me … but it doesn’t mean that the lifestyle or the principles of our race would have changed as well … Isn’t the same with your association sirs?”
    http://www.mangareader.net/104-29253-21/vampire-knight/chapter-53.html
    http://www.mangareader.net/104-29253-22/vampire-knight/chapter-53.html

    Also right after the sign up of the new treaty Kaien asked Kaname how certain he was that vampires’ society and mostly the PBs would accept him as a leader>>
    Kaname: “I guess we will have the answer to that question by seeing the percentage of invitees that attends the ball tonight … won’t we?”

    So do we have the answer? At the ball attended only Ouri and Sara from the PBs and for Sara we can be sure that she doesn’t support Kaname. Ergo does this mean that the rest of the PBs are against his leadership i.e. against co-existence and peace since is well known what the Kurans represent through millennia? Could this be ONE of the reasons of why Kaname stepped down of his position and proceed with his original plan?

    And now I wonder … even if Kaname wouldn’t proceed with his plan with whom he would establish the true co-existence; who were the supporters/believers of this idea?>>> Only Kaien Yuuki and maybe a bunch of nobles … were they enough? Therefore, how unjustified or extreme is his fear that Yuuki could sacrifice herself in her attempt since practically they had to fight against the odds?

    knightmare wrote: Kaien and Rima are right. Yuuki to a lesser extent, but she hasn't expressed an actual stance on the matter. It should be wrong to kill vampires. You don't kill all dogs because some dogs attack people. Its wrong to punish the vampires who can control themselves and keep others under control.

    Let's face it, the purebloods are useless and powerless. The troublemakers should be taken care of, but the others are harmless. And no, you don't have to wait until they've caused a terrible amount of trouble, but there's less than 30 of them, it doesn't take much to keep tabs on them!

    I agree … but is the PBs the only root of the problem? Even if they’ll be annihilated does this mean that the nobles will cease to use humans or seeing them as food? Cuz even if they can’t create new level-es still their superiority can harm/manipulate humans …
    On the other hand the vampires are vulnerable since the hunters can kill them freely without any consequence … I suspect that this “law” it might be the result of the fact that the existence of vampires is unknown for the majority of the humans … hence perhaps that should be change as well in order to effect the co-existence …

    So naturally I wonder how realistic is Kaien’s and Yuuki’s vision with the current circumstances? Isn’t more possible that they might sacrifice their lives for nothing?
    Kaname: “The true complete co-existence as you envision it, is still a long road away …”

    That’s why I think that the problem is far more complex than the extermination of the PBs here thus and Kaname’s plan …






    "... I want to fall down with you to the very farthest depths ... taint me too Kaname"



    Spoiler:

    *wants to sneak under these bed sheets*
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    juliet
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    Re: the Morality and Ethics of the Hunters (chapter 75)

    Post by juliet on Sun Sep 25, 2011 8:48 pm

    So do we have the answer? At the ball attended only Ouri and Sara from the PBs and for Sara we can be sure that she doesn’t support Kaname. Ergo does this mean that the rest of the PBs are against his leadership i.e. against co-existence and peace since is well known what the Kurans represent through millennia? Could this be ONE of the reasons of why Kaname stepped down of his position and proceed with his original plan?

    Not only that but under his nose and under the hunters nose as well a pureblood that supported co-existence is murdered. A wonderful begining for a new era of the so called co-existence? What's the message of the party? LOL







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    Re: the Morality and Ethics of the Hunters (chapter 75)

    Post by sweetsolace on Sun Sep 25, 2011 8:50 pm

    juliet wrote:
    Let's not forget that hunters can be controlled by purebloods (that's how Ouri was killed), and the purebloods are the ones that the fear most.

    another point here is that if the purebloods are removed from the top chain then the hunters wont have reason to fear any higher "being" anymore therefore they can move more freely. in a way it eliminates the top dog and gives them some more needed authority as a figure in vampire society.


    For me it's a clear point; Vampire hunters do hate purebloods ( all vampires- but purebloods are considered sacred, unreachable, strongest) and here they are revealing their nature.
    yes and this instinct to hate, i believe, is suppressed, until the right "golden" moment to strike.


    Up to this moment we all considered that the Kuran familly held the vampire world in balance (due the anti-vampire) and controlled it, but now we see that the balance that kept co-existence alive was not only targeted at the vampires/ but also at the hunters.
    This is why the vampires also feel betrayed by Kaname right now, not only because he appears to have turned against his own race, but because he leaves his own race uncovered to the intentions of others...since in killing vampires there is no formal laws
    good point, the balance was kept by the Kuran rule and when it was taken out that balance now settled on the hands of the Senate and the Hunters. If any of this groups tips the scale by letting their nature consume them it will be another issue of coexistence


    (how can they be? humans are unaware of the existence of vampires, who will ask a hunter why he killed a vampire? and try to attribute justice?)
    in this sense Rima brings to us light how UNFAIR it is for vampires who are left to obey the rules and be discreet, at the same time also be under a lawless rule that subjects their lives to be taken anytime. Razz Razz we are learning more in VK, NOW it is the vampires who should be pitied.. Razz Razz


    So there is a great issue here that sunddenly appears; the natural insticts of the hunters in a way prevent co-existence because they not allow trust to bloom.
    yes. more than that their method involves taking lives and spilling blood. As I've said in another thread I believe TRUE coexistence does not involve ANY killing, which is why the idea of peace itself seems more like an ideology but i suppose it can happen.


    Why to trust Kaname? they do not, they will allow him to do the killings and then as it appears by their intention to kill them ALL, they will also kill him.

    That's their true intention, but I believe that they are also playing in kaname's game, this is the start, and apparently Kaname will take use of their insticts.

    I suspect that their behavior had been already predicted in the note that Isaya received. (where it says that the reputation of the hunters will go bad). If so there is a game running underneath.
    yes, they use each other for each others benefit, but once the usability is spent I believe they will no longer hesitate with their roles/natures.

    aya chan wrote:
    Apparently hunters have ethic or morals only when's convinient for them.
    yes and this was the most convenient moment, majority vs one, they can all agree to one thing, its more like a plotted conspiracy than a job. "If kaname will do the dirty work, we can look away and pretend nothing happened until its over" vampire knight truly shows the ugly tendency of one's nature.

    nina wrote:
    ROFL … I have to admit sweet that this thread is very tempting for me lol. But I’ll try to restrain myself haha …
    oh if you only knew..
    but at least we know who is jumping to anything to get an ugly excuse to bash Evil or Very Mad

    i have no doubts justice will be served more, and it will be on a silver plate in the future.
    Cool

    So IF Kaname is a serial killer; what the hunters are since they
    almost cheering Kaname’s doings? Who is the ANTAGONIST NOW? Haha …
    Where it’s gone their LAW and their legitimate list?
    haha... you know I wanted to dance and gloat over this, do more than that actually... but I'll refrain myself from acting uncivilized for the meantime...


    Kaname has been accused that he broke the contract and that he didn’t
    cooperate with the hunters … So now arises the question, what for?
    haha yes WHAT FOR? I don't think we should try to answer that. I want to hear others answer.
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    Re: the Morality and Ethics of the Hunters (chapter 75)

    Post by juliet on Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:51 am

    another point here is that if the purebloods are removed from the top chain then the hunters wont have reason to fear any higher "being" anymore therefore they can move more freely. in a way it eliminates the top dog and gives them some more needed authority as a figure in vampire society.


    Exactly!! Knightmare may call them fools for going for it, but I consider them to be quite opportunist on the matter, it would be foolish of them perhaps to lose the opportunity that Kaname appears to offer.

    yes. more than that their method involves taking lives and spilling blood. As I've said in another thread I believe TRUE coexistence does not involve ANY killing, which is why the idea of peace itself seems more like an ideology but i suppose it can happen.

    I agree and it can not arrive through hateful insticts, what once seemed to be a necessity for them to act, it seems no more.

    So naturally I wonder how realistic is Kaien’s and Yuuki’s vision with the current circumstances? Isn’t more possible that they might sacrifice their lives for nothing?
    Kaname: “The true complete co-existence as you envision it, is still a long road away …”

    Both camps need to change perspective but how? Can the hate be erased? Is there a way for the insticts to be tamed?

    as you said there is the long way, through education but there is also another way;

    I think that Kaname's plan (or part of the plan) is to bring upfront the hate, the violence, to open scars, to divide camps, so that the good from the bad finally has no place to hide, if all the hate and the violence comes in surface then it also be dealt and perhaps be exterminated.

    kaien right now and Yuuki stand alone (even though I think that Kaname is with them) but what if others start joining them? what if there are defenders out of nowhere? apparently if a sudden war breaks out everyone will be called to take a side and defend their positions and their beliefs, it will be unavoidable.

    Its a long thought but also a possibility...

    Finally yes it seems that no one trully wants co-existence but they do have another choice? Humans can not be endangered whenever a pureblod feels like playing games (see Sara's army) and the vampires must not feel unprotected and vulnerable (as Rima said). The one kind should leave with respect next to another.
    So yes, even if they stand alone there is a world underneath, a human and a vampire society which needs co-existence and fair treatment to apply.









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    Re: the Morality and Ethics of the Hunters (chapter 75)

    Post by ckaien on Mon Sep 26, 2011 1:03 am

    juliet wrote:
    The question is; is Kaien going to stand alone?
    Perhaps once he leaves without supporters to realize that he has to let Yuuki go despite his wish.
    On the other hand the issue with the co-existence and Kaien's pacifism worries me. What is going to remain of his ideologies? it seemed that they had no real application/ what is Kaien going to do now? There is a great surprise for him coming.


    Hate to bring up a flashback but Chapter 51 Kaien told zero his "sentence" for killing the HA president is only temporarily on hold or to see how things turn out. I dont think He will have a choice to stand alone. As you say he has a 'surprise' coming. But its not much of a surprise seeing he knew his righpt to being president would be short lived. My conceern is the details of his sentence. as Hino never revelaed anything reguarding it. i feared when Kaien was arrested and we didnt see him literally for 6 months. I was paranoid he was exeuted for his deciaion. And Im realistically still scared that its still applicable. Especially now that he appears to be in evereyone's way. X.X

    Hes more than likely going to be locked away again for now . unless these guys are seriously fed up with him altogether . As he has been a toy of the association for years. x,x
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    Re: the Morality and Ethics of the Hunters (chapter 75)

    Post by shizza24 on Mon Sep 26, 2011 1:23 am

    I never got the idea of hunters as defenders of morals.. their only concern is protection of the humans from vampires. Hunters and Vampires are fundamentally two opposing factions and neither side holds a great regard for the other even though they are on tolerably agreeable terms thanks to Kaien. It was only Kaien from the hunters faction who believed in co-existence and his influence had the two factions working together with help from Kaname..

    Now Kaname has decided to kill all the PBs so of course Kaien has a problem with it since he believes in peace. But that doesn't mean the hunters have to think that way. Even though they agreed to co-operate with Vampires the hunters still have negative notions about them and vice versa for vampires. So I don't see a reason why they would support Kaien in defending the PBs against Kaname. For them it will just make their job of protecting humans easier and the PBs gone for good there wont be any level Es and thus it will be safer for humans. Hence I don't think it illogical for the hunters to decide to not get into Kaname's way and let him kill the PBs..
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    Re: the Morality and Ethics of the Hunters (chapter 75)

    Post by ckaien on Mon Sep 26, 2011 2:14 am

    X.x oi, oi. This isnt the first time the Hunters agreed with Kaname before as stated at the confereence meeting Before the Peace Ball. the hunters' ancestors devoured kaname 10,000 years ago possibly on Kanames request. Theyve been living on his curse for years. In a sense Kaname owns the hunters by cursing them through his blood and poweres all those years ago. They are dogs to a call. They just dont realise it.
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    Re: the Morality and Ethics of the Hunters (chapter 75)

    Post by Akaruisama on Mon Sep 26, 2011 2:19 am

    shizza24 wrote:I never got the idea of hunters as defenders of morals.. their only concern is protection of the humans from vampires. Hunters and Vampires are fundamentally two opposing factions and neither side holds a great regard for the other even though they are on tolerably agreeable terms thanks to Kaien. It was only Kaien from the hunters faction who believed in co-existence and his influence had the two factions working together with help from Kaname..

    Now Kaname has decided to kill all the PBs so of course Kaien has a problem with it since he believes in peace. But that doesn't mean the hunters have to think that way. Even though they agreed to co-operate with Vampires the hunters still have negative notions about them and vice versa for vampires. So I don't see a reason why they would support Kaien in defending the PBs against Kaname. For them it will just make their job of protecting humans easier and the PBs gone for good there wont be any level Es and thus it will be safer for humans. Hence I don't think it illogical for the hunters to decide to not get into Kaname's way and let him kill the PBs..


    I completely share your opinion on this topic. And, moreover, I like it. Hino shows us that no one of he characters are black or white, they are all usual people who sometimes use any means to achieve their goals.
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    Re: the Morality and Ethics of the Hunters (chapter 75)

    Post by sweetsolace on Mon Sep 26, 2011 2:45 am

    ckaien wrote:
    juliet wrote:
    The question is; is Kaien going to stand alone?
    Perhaps once he leaves without supporters to realize that he has to let Yuuki go despite his wish.
    On the other hand the issue with the co-existence and Kaien's pacifism worries me. What is going to remain of his ideologies? it seemed that they had no real application/ what is Kaien going to do now? There is a great surprise for him coming.


    Hate to bring up a flashback but Chapter 51 Kaien told zero his "sentence" for killing the HA president is only temporarily on hold or to see how things turn out. I dont think He will have a choice to stand alone. As you say he has a 'surprise' coming. But its not much of a surprise seeing he knew his righpt to being president would be short lived. My conceern is the details of his sentence. as Hino never revelaed anything reguarding it. i feared when Kaien was arrested and we didnt see him literally for 6 months. I was paranoid he was exeuted for his deciaion. And Im realistically still scared that its still applicable. Especially now that he appears to be in evereyone's way. X.X

    Hes more than likely going to be locked away again for now . unless these guys are seriously fed up with him altogether . As he has been a toy of the association for years. x,x

    Kaien's "sentence" was not revealed but I think this means he is obligated to do what the HA tells him to do, and Yagari appointed him in the self important title as The Figurehead. In a way this forces Kaien to act like a president and follow what the HA tells him, for example he was not supposed to have any dealings with the Kurans (including Yuki), he was not free to do this and some fans think its even Kaname's fault that he "cant see his own daughter Yuki" mffft.
    -will post evidence only if requested-

    ckaien wrote:X.x oi, oi. This isnt the first time the Hunters agreed with Kaname before as stated at the confereence meeting Before the Peace Ball. the hunters' ancestors devoured kaname 10,000 years ago possibly on Kanames request. Theyve been living on his curse for years. In a sense Kaname owns the hunters by cursing them through his blood and poweres all those years ago. They are dogs to a call. They just dont realise it.
    what?? no.. the hunters ate the hooded woman, as a consequence for possessing the powers in her blood Kaname told them they will have a hateful instinct towards vampires. He doesnt command them, or he can but i dont see why he should, LOL, come to think of it he can just command them to cut off their heads it would save the trouble, Kaname can actually eliminate all of Yuki's threats such as the hunters who even threaten her pureblood life (lol, when she can also control them rofl and yet she's "afraid" and even "forced to follow their orders" hilarious) Purebloods can control hunter as evidence by Sara controlling a hunter to kill Ouri. But obviously theres a reason why Kaname is hesitating even doing this, and I think it is to bait someone to coming out...

    Akaruisama wrote:
    I completely share your opinion on this topic. And, moreover, I like it. Hino shows us that no one of he characters are black or white, they are all usual people who sometimes use any means to achieve their goals.
    well now at least this meaning is truer than any "He is bad because killing is bad" reasoning. Now I can stop defending this line at least

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    Re: the Morality and Ethics of the Hunters (chapter 75)

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