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    the Morality and Ethics of the Hunters (chapter 75)

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    sweetsolace
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    the Morality and Ethics of the Hunters (chapter 75)

    Post by sweetsolace on Sat Sep 24, 2011 7:36 am

    First topic message reminder :

    affraid affraid affraid affraid affraid


    the hunters AGREED with Kaname killing all purebloods!!!

    Apparently only Kaien does not agree with them

    from chapter 75 translation-witlessfool

    Page 4:
    Yagari: Because there’s something that we need to say that cannot be heard within the walls of the Association’s headquarters.

    Page 6:
    Yagori: We don’t share the President’s viewpoints. We hope Kaname Kuran can continue what he’s doing.
    Therefore... we feel, this time, his individual actions will only get in the way.

    Page 24:
    Kaname: As the President of the Vampire Hunter Association, you should have no problems with my actions, Kaien Cross.

    Page 25:
    Kaien: Huh, I have no wish to see the destruction of the purebloods.
    (Kaname collapses into a horde of bats)
    Kaname...!

    Page 28:
    Kaito: Whatever. If Kaname Kuran was to destroy the purebloods, then our wishes would be fulfilled.
    Chairman... If he was to know about this, he would be very saddened.
    Kaito (con’t): You, also, don’t try to interfere. Although I’m saying this, in reality, you can’t do anything but stay here.
    Don’t
    know what that rascal’s aims are. And we also don’t know much about the
    anti-vampire weapon he’s wielding. But it’s clear that no matter what,
    you will be spared.
    To spare a pureblood who’s sympathetic to humankind is not a bad thing. As long as it’s just one person.

    I thought hunters are supposed to serve as defenders of justice no matter what kind and NOW they are on the same league as Kaname (technically)!!

    What does that say of their morality? Kaname in the past had been ACCUSED AND PERSECUTED for his crimes by fans, NOW the hunters are AGREEING to this SAME ACTS of KILLING PUREBLOODS. What does that tell you? What does that tell of vampire knight?

    I cannot resist saying this, but the ones who BASHED Kaname for killing purebloods, I believe, have eaten their own words to try and incriminate him due his deeds

    lol. Ok so who's going to say killing is bad? Apparently not only Kaname likes doing it.

    Yuki and Kaien are the only ones shown to be interested in peace and non-violence now. In my opinion, as my opinion in the beginning, vampire knight is dark and has many violence warranted and unwarranted. It was not surprising for me the hunters would think this way, but in my opinion it was still shocking to find out they were even holding some sort of conspiracy against their president (Kaien) for having different views than the rest of them.
    The morality and ethics of the hunters, I think, and always thought since the start, lies on their job and what their job entailed them to do. They work on protocol of their job, not morality. As long as they get an easy way of handling things, IT DOESN'T MATTER if its wrong or right. example would be how Yagari treated the wiping out of the council-- the only thing that mattered for him was that the level e's were on the loose and they would have more jobs to do, something he complained to Kaname, rather than arresting him for doing the crime. Another thing is their basis for taking out purebloods is almost NIL, not even executed, they simply DON'T DO ANYTHING towards Purebloods, nor do they take appropriate action towards them. The vampires seem to do more in terms of worrying. example would be their actions towards Sara Shirabuki seemed to have stopped, or ignored, when Kaname started killing purebloods.[i]

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    Re: the Morality and Ethics of the Hunters (chapter 75)

    Post by caela on Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:58 pm

    Correction: I think I oversimplified the situation. (I've never been accused of that before)

    There is a board of Directors who are in charge of the Association and Councilman Wakaba (Yori's hotshot dad who we can't even see the face of) is one of the board members.

    http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/71/3

    http://www.mangareader.net/104-2179-6/vampire-knight/chapter-51.html

    The above link is Yagari discussing the intentions of the Board of Directors:

    Yagari: For [the directors of the board who know about vampires] ...The vampires' superior intelligence and special skills are inevitibly something those men are burning to exploit. And they are also thinking that if they "do things right", they should be able to get their hands on the vampires' longevity as well.

    Yagari sees himself as not exactly protecting vampires but stopping the board of directors from getting vampire blood.

    From Nina:
    Kaien was a tool from the very beginning with no real authority to make his decisions.

    http://www.mangareader.net/104-2178-25/vampire-knight/chapter-50.html

    http://www.mangareader.net/104-2178-26/vampire-knight/chapter-50.html

    In chapter 50, before Kaien was telling Zero that Zero will be getting a promotion, Kaien asked Zero about if Zero will try to hunt down Kaname. Zero then said "no," and that is when Kaien told Zero about the possible promotion. If Zero has said "yes," it looks like Kaien would have not allowed a Zero promotion. Kaien and Yagari do recieve orders from this Board of Directors, but Kaien and Yagari have some say as to whether or not they will follow the orders.

    I still say the Hunter Association is not strong enough to hunt purebloods. Maybe Zero is (but he is not stronger than Kaname), AND Yagari should be aware of what the Association is capable and not capable of doing.

    I still say that Yagari's mutiny is a cover for some other intention that Yagari has. It doesn't have to be a complex explanation, it could be something as simple as Kaien is the real president and therefore is subject to the Board of Directors. If both Yagari and Kaien want to disobey orders of the Board, Yagari would choose to be the one to be seen going against the wishes of the Board, then Kaien won't be the one to suffer the second black mark on his record and the bigger punishment. Therefore, Yagari would chose to mutiny.

    If anything, the largest corruption in the Hunter Association is not in the Hunter Assocaiation itself, but the Board of Directors, who probably want vampire blood.

    Back to the ethics:

    Nina:
    Furthermore I have said in the past that HA’s structure does not differ so much from vampires’ society. Here what Yagari says about the way they choose their president >>>
    “The hunter criteria for picking our presidents is PURE STRENGTH … all that matters is whether the guy (potential president) is powerful enough TO CONTROL BY FEAR THE REST OF THE HUNTERS OR NOT…”

    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/vampire_knight/v11/c052/29.html

    WHY they need to be controlled and more importantly by fear? Apparently for their instincts/thirst to kill vampires thus and the hunting list. Isn’t this similar with vampires’ instinct to seek blood from humans?
    These aren’t the same traits that vampires have? Aren’t vampires controlled and respect only the most fearsome vampire; >> the bee queen? Ergo it is obvious that morals or ethics have no gravity for the hunters … only raw power in order to inflict fear to the other hunters but also to their enemies …

    So isn’t new that something is rotten in their association as well as in vampires’ society/rationale/traits. They need to change too …

    I don't disagree with the need to change the Hunter Association. They do have vampire genes and have the same strengths and weaknesses as vampires, albeit on a smaller scale.

    Where we differ is that I don't have a problem with vampires or hunters ruling by fear and power. Its kind of like dating: it sounds shallow but I wouldn't date someone who I can't find attractive. If they are attractive enough, then I'll judge brains, personality, being funny, etc. Haha, with me, looks come first, dating is not charity.

    Being a leader is the same thing. Without any personal power, who would listen to their leader? If the leader does not have the ability with only their personality or raw power to make others listen, then how would anyone control the organization? First you choose a potential leader based on power, and then you judge the candidate's ethics. This is how Kaien chose Zero as the next President. This is why Kaname is an ideal leader: he has both the brains and the brawn to lead others.

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    Re: the Morality and Ethics of the Hunters (chapter 75)

    Post by juliet on Tue Oct 04, 2011 7:16 pm

    caela wrote:

    Where we differ is that I don't have a problem with vampires or hunters ruling by fear and power. Its kind of like dating: it sounds shallow but I wouldn't date someone who I can't find attractive. If they are attractive enough, then I'll judge brains, personality, being funny, etc. Haha, with me, looks come first, dating is not charity.

    Being a leader is the same thing. Without any personal power, who would listen to their leader? If the leader does not have the ability with only their personality or raw power to make others listen, then how would anyone control the organization? First you choose a potential leader based on power, and then you judge the candidate's ethics. This is how Kaien chose Zero as the next President. This is why Kaname is an ideal leader: he has both the brains and the brawn to lead others.


    Its okay basing it on personal criteria what we might want can be different...but the certain perception of the hunters is not different from the current perception of the vampires and you agree on that...

    but according to Kaname this is a problem...if that is so, doesnt it sound that it should change (blind obedience due to power is the problem of the Queen bee that Kaname mentioned at his dialogue with Aido-dono) so that if the two (hunters association- vampire society ) progress to be equal? I think that was also the main point in Nina's post. And to add another point;

    we see that for the first time vampire society makes a step forward with Yuuki as she asked from the to show faith on her, she earned their acceptance through trust (as the noble kids run to her support) and when she was challenged to force them to obey her call - her character of justice and good intentions was revealed- she want to make them believers and supporters not slaves. I think that's a picture of the future if this so-called co-existence stands a chance, these will be the main fundamentals.
    So an great portion of the vampires faith on the most powerful shifted...to the one that acts in justice and good will.

    Apparently the same shift to balance it has to come for the hunters as well, no matter how unreachable this goal sounds now...shouldn't it?

    @As for the board of directors I think I need to see that point again, if humans also have the need to exploit vampires (I know they did at the past but what about the present) the perception changes...






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    Re: the Morality and Ethics of the Hunters (chapter 75)

    Post by caela on Wed Oct 05, 2011 1:21 am

    From Juliet:
    but according to Kaname this is a problem...if that is so, doesnt it sound that it should change (blind obedience due to power is the problem of the Queen bee that Kaname mentioned at his dialogue with Aido-dono) so that if the two (hunters association- vampire society ) progress to be equal? I think that was also the main point in Nina's post. And to add another point;

    we see that for the first time vampire society makes a step forward with Yuuki as she asked from the to show faith on her, she earned their acceptance through trust (as the noble kids run to her support) and when she was challenged to force them to obey her call - her character of justice and good intentions was revealed- she want to make them believers and supporters not slaves. I think that's a picture of the future if this so-called co-existence stands a chance, these will be the main fundamentals.
    So an great portion of the vampires faith on the most powerful shifted...to the one that acts in justice and good will.

    Apparently the same shift to balance it has to come for the hunters as well, no matter how unreachable this goal sounds now...shouldn't it?

    I agree that trust in one's leader would probably be the best way to govern. Yuuki is also very ethical. But beyond earned trust, which is what Yuuki is trying achieve, Yuuki is missing something essential: She is not powerful or is not recognized as powerful or charismatic. Rima even makes a point of saying that Yuuki is not charismatic (chapter 74). This is why I called Kaname the ideal leader: vampires trust him (or did trust him) because he never tried to mind control others. His actions were ethical and he is the most powerful vampire so far.

    The ethics for the Hunter's is complex because they do not govern themselves: a few powerful humans are in control of them. Yagari and Kaien are walking the balancing act of satisfying their own followers and the needs of their human bosses, who probably want some pureblood.

    This is why I don't take the Yagari campaign promise, of pureblood annihilation except Yuuki, seriously. Yagari must know they have no way of killing Kaname. Yagari must also know that there is no way to guarantee that Kaname will kill all the other purebloods. Yagari made this promise and started the mutiny to keep the not-so-smart hunters happy(sorry zero) plus the mutiny might be a way of keeping Kaien out of trouble with the board of directors, so Kaien that won't get that scary unknown punishment.

    Side note: Its looking more likely that Yori's secret fiance is Zero. The easier way to get vampire blood other than attacking a vampire is to marry one.
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    Re: the Morality and Ethics of the Hunters (chapter 75)

    Post by sweetsolace on Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:03 am

    juliet wrote:
    she earned their acceptance through trust (as the noble kids run to her support) and when she was challenged to force them to obey her call - her character of justice and good intentions was revealed- she want to make them believers and supporters not slaves. I think that's a picture of the future if this so-called co-existence stands a chance, these will be the main fundamentals.

    right now its more of an ideology of her utopia than a logical approach. In short its an idea and presently its unreasonable. So she wants to make them believers and supporters but does she have what it takes? To make them into this she has to possess power, and she doesn't even have the intelligence and charisma in the first step. Are the night class supposed to buy her ethical idea for what it is rather than for who she is?
    The thing is that I believe vampires look at the face, rather than an idea. They look at the person, and not to the belief being suggested. This is how their instincts are molded, and this is how the hunters are molded too thats why they look at Yagari more than they look at Kaien's beliefs. Strength and power over ethics and morality.
    I think we agree that coexistence is a Utopia, its an ideal ground for peace. And we agree that Yuki and Kaien's beliefs for non violence and cooperative/collaborative ways fit coexistence like a shoe, because it enables peaceful living for all.
    But right now majority is against them rather than with them, the manga events are showing that its difficult if not impossible to achieve this, and so we take a look at Kaname's actions... What is he doing, is it for CE and is it right?
    It looks like he's even making a new form of vampire government and he started by deleting the council, then the purebloods... who's next? hunters? he's probably going to leave the only ones who can follow Yuki.

    caela wrote:
    This is why I don't take the Yagari campaign promise, of
    pureblood annihilation except Yuuki, seriously. Yagari must know they
    have no way of killing Kaname. Yagari must also know that there is no
    way to guarantee that Kaname will kill all the other purebloods.
    I think that's the catch missing here. Actually it was Kaito who said they will have no problem if only Yuki lives, so even if Kaname doesn't kill himself after everything they will find a way to hunt him down and kill him... if he doesnt do it first.
    Yagari is also making an assumption that Kaname is killing all purebloods, or does he? Do they know its selective, or they were too excited since he's fulfilling their wishes? we dont know. But he's holding a meeting to say that Kaien was the odd one out. So whatever Kaname is doing as long as it involves killing purebloods they will approve of it.
    Their ideal setting though is that he kills all then himself and only leaves Yuki, as Kaito said.
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    Re: the Morality and Ethics of the Hunters (chapter 75)

    Post by juliet on Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:54 am

    sweetsolace wrote:
    right now its more of an ideology of her utopia than a logical approach. In short its an idea and presently its unreasonable. So she wants to make them believers and supporters but does she have what it takes? To make them into this she has to possess power, and she doesn't even have the intelligence and charisma in the first step. Are the night class supposed to buy her ethical idea for what it is rather than for who she is?

    Yes but due to the nightclass, she did mangage to persuasive them , utopical now or illogical or unrealistic, her innoncent looks and intentions did found supporters after all due to the kids recognizing these perceptions in her and standing up to her and this persuaded the others. Of course it played an important role that she is a Kuran but if she was another Rido let'say would she enjoy their support in the first place?

    So the overall idea that this system may applie in a broader scale into the future and vampire society may finally choose to follow out of trust and not out of fear shows little evidence of breaking through. That's why I said "fundamenal" its not that she has all potential or that she can even stand up to the task but I focus more on the reaction of the vampires. If they can see change, they will develop and progress...

    so also Kaname's idea that they can live without a Queen bee can it be realized? it's far, an utopia but eventually a first hint of the idea in the script was introduced...

    and this brings me to the hunters because if vampires do that change shouldn't the HA also change its system of selection?

    or should they be viewed as a distinctive organization?

    It looks like he's even making a new form of vampire government and he started by deleting the council, then the purebloods... who's next?


    If they remain like this apparently they do not support peace at all and with these ideas they are running a danger of summoning the menace of the purebloods. Because if they make their intentions clear but Kaname's actions are prooven to be justified due a certain past that he had with the head of the clans...dadada guess who is exposed to the rest of purebloods and families that remain... (i do not know but they are sinking themselves, looks like it).







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    Re: the Morality and Ethics of the Hunters (chapter 75)

    Post by sweetsolace on Wed Oct 05, 2011 11:32 am

    juliet wrote:
    sweetsolace wrote:
    right now its more of an ideology of her utopia than a logical approach. In short its an idea and presently its unreasonable. So she wants to make them believers and supporters but does she have what it takes? To make them into this she has to possess power, and she doesn't even have the intelligence and charisma in the first step. Are the night class supposed to buy her ethical idea for what it is rather than for who she is?

    Yes but due to the nightclass, she did mangage to persuasive them , utopical now or illogical or unrealistic, her innoncent looks and intentions did found supporters after all due to the kids recognizing these perceptions in her and standing up to her and this persuaded the others.

    but is she succeeding? no in fact Sara made it as president, more of a danger sign to me..


    So the overall idea that this system may applie in a broader scale
    into the future and vampire society may finally choose to follow out of
    trust and not out of fear shows little evidence of breaking through.
    That's why I said "fundamenal" its not that she has all potential or
    that she can even stand up to the task but I focus more on the reaction
    of the vampires. If they can see change, they will develop and
    progress...
    yes that's why I said this
    I think we agree that coexistence is a Utopia, its an ideal ground
    for peace. And we agree that Yuki and Kaien's beliefs for non violence
    and cooperative/collaborative ways fit coexistence like a shoe, because
    it enables peaceful living for all.

    the idea is cute and nice but can it come true? as we see now she is doing poorly in it...


    so also Kaname's idea that they can live without a Queen bee can it
    be realized? it's far, an utopia but eventually a first hint of the idea
    in the script was introduced...
    its his belief but I think its a troll because as we saw he's not killing all which means if he wants a total cleansing he would wipe them out one by one. But he's taking his time and apparently goes slowly like he's picking up orders from the store (alphabetical order LOL, starting from Hanadagi>Hio>Shoutou Touma > Shirabuki Razz)
    from what I see Kaname is making a new form of ruling, he took out the council so he must have an idea what will replace it.... all this killing to me appears senseless without an explanation...
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    Re: the Morality and Ethics of the Hunters (chapter 75)

    Post by juliet on Wed Oct 05, 2011 11:49 am

    sweetsolace wrote:

    its his belief but I think its a troll because as we saw he's not killing all which means if he wants a total cleansing he would wipe them out one by one. But he's taking his time and apparently goes slowly like he's picking up orders from the store (alphabetical order LOL, starting from Hanadagi>Hio>Shoutou Touma > Shirabuki Razz)
    from what I see Kaname is making a new form of ruling, he took out the council so he must have an idea what will replace it.... all this killing to me appears senseless without an explanation...

    Its interesting, what is making a Queen Bee? (just its nature: pureblood )or the blind faith of the nobles and fear that have made purebloods existence sacred and therefore they will accept anything that comes and goes?
    In case its the first, then yes all purebloods should be erased according to that perception (that they can not exist because they are Queen Bees (but wouldnt that also include Yuuki due to her nature as a pureblood?) or the inability of the vampire society to react to the bad and evil, so in reality they are making Queens on their own?
    If its the second case then purebloods who are harmful should be exterminated because the vampire society should reject them. (and the same goes with the HA associations and its hunters).

    I remember Kaname's words to the council; a system that does not separate good from bad...if all purebloods are killed without exemptions then why was the council killed? apparently Kaname's plan makes no difference from the council's intentios.







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    Re: the Morality and Ethics of the Hunters (chapter 75)

    Post by sweetsolace on Wed Oct 05, 2011 12:05 pm

    juliet wrote:
    sweetsolace wrote:

    its his belief but I think its a troll because as we saw he's not killing all which means if he wants a total cleansing he would wipe them out one by one. But he's taking his time and apparently goes slowly like he's picking up orders from the store (alphabetical order LOL, starting from Hanadagi>Hio>Shoutou Touma > Shirabuki Razz)
    from what I see Kaname is making a new form of ruling, he took out the council so he must have an idea what will replace it.... all this killing to me appears senseless without an explanation...

    Its interesting, what is making a Queen Bee? (just its nature: pureblood )
    then yes all purebloods should be erased according to that perception (that they can not exist because they are Queen Bees (but wouldnt that also include Yuuki due to her nature as a pureblood?)

    I don't buy this kill purebloods, as it looks like Kaname is making a selection to his killing.
    I agree Yuki is not an exemption because she's also a pureblood, if Kaname is really killing all according to principle that there should be no queen beee Yuki should be included regardless how he feels.
    But what about the ones who are left? scratch


    or the blind faith of the nobles and fear that have made purebloods
    existence sacred and therefore they will accept anything that comes and
    goes?
    or the inability of the vampire society to react to the bad and evil, so in reality they are making Queens on their own?
    then purebloods who are harmful should be exterminated because the vampire society should reject them. (and the same goes with the HA associations and its hunters).
    this option seems more likely, because VS cant differentiate bad and good purebloods so he will eliminate the bad ones to created distinction there.
    but their nature remains and will always have tendency to rise, so its not exactly a fail safe plan to ensure a perfect future..

    I remember Kaname's words to the council; a system that does not separate good from bad...if all purebloods are killed without exemptions then why was the council killed? apparently Kaname's plan makes no difference from the council's intentios.
    he refers to the council as a collective whole who does one set of tasks... they failed in it because of their corruption and as he said inability to separate good from bad. but i think he was also referring to the system of the council itself, not just the people. so their group somehow defined them as one. Killing all of them, in my opinion, was the fastest way to take out the system.
    maybe you're right, he's doing the same thing with the purebloods, we still dont know what it achieves as he says nothing...
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    Re: the Morality and Ethics of the Hunters (chapter 75)

    Post by juliet on Wed Oct 05, 2011 2:55 pm

    this option seems more likely, because VS cant differentiate bad and good purebloods so he will eliminate the bad ones to created distinction there.
    but their nature remains and will always have tendency to rise, so its not exactly a fail safe plan to ensure a perfect future..

    Exactly! Pureblood’s nature will never change, that’s why the vampire society should find means in order to kill the “Queen Bee” on their own device and mentality, with reason. If the bee worthes it, yes, but no more from blind obedience.
    That’s why I believe that Kaname is fighting against the Queen perception. Because as we saw the existence of the purebloods is considered “sacred” as Kaname said in his talk with Aido-dono and this perception has to change.
    What if the killings that Kaname now makes eventually have to do with threats or implications of the past and therefore are justified?

    Can these two point blend together and finally make and another point that Kaname’s plan serves as well as his overall objective is the creation of a safe world?

    I guess yes, Kaname’s actions might be totally justified but perhaps he let that be in order to serve other goals as well. And one of these goal I believe is AND the current system that does not allow reason and values to flow in;
    How?

    The main “queen bee” now that is actually going down drain is Kaname (Lol Kaname is using himself here) as he holds secret the reasons he kills purebloods. He is characterized as bersek and dangerous and as Rima said the vampires now feel that their “Queen Bee” betrayed them.
    So now they see that mere submission does not ensure neither guarantees survival, neither protection. They actually stand more vulnerable. In a way Kaname throws to their face the “queen bee” perception.
    Why?
    Because that’s where ideology led them to> in basing their selection’s criteria only in fear.

    In a way that’s a lesson for them. The only way that they can survive from the queen bee and every potential queen bee that may come on their way is to develop defense mechanisms based on logic and reason. On their own; to reject the “bad”, to pursue and support the good ones.
    To ensure that they need also the hunters, to play along with them and also to be able to make the same distinctions.
    So here with Kaname’s unjustified killings two fronts open with wrong values; that of the hunters/ that of the vampire society.

    After Kaname’s killings become justified the point remains; hunters are exposed and unjustified, vampire society has also bended her perceptions about purebloods.
    So yes, another political system mainly rises here, born out of the necessity for no more innoncent victims from both sides.

    he refers to the council as a collective whole who does one set of tasks... they failed in it because of their corruption and as he said inability to separate good from bad. but i think he was also referring to the system of the council itself, not just the people. so their group somehow defined them as one. Killing all of them, in my opinion, was the fastest way to take out the system.
    maybe you're right, he's doing the same thing with the purebloods, we still dont know what it achieves as he says nothing...

    What I am saying is that Kaname cannot go and kill all purebloods without distinction because that was the main reason that he eliminated that system in the past. So since that was his perception in the past (that a system can no longer serve with this frame of mind) , how can he act now as a another council?

    So there has to be another justification for the killings, the system of the vampires is not the actual point, but if he can also deliver a change taking advantage of the “gap” of trust, that now opens, why not to take advantage of that? Eventually this is the moment, because many reasons are met.

    The same thing is happening with the hunters "they accept the bait" and they are making themselves vulnerable here as much as the vampire society when they act on insticts and not reason.








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    Re: the Morality and Ethics of the Hunters (chapter 75)

    Post by mariangie on Wed Oct 05, 2011 3:41 pm


    By Caela

    Side note: Its looking more likely that Yori's secret fiance is Zero. The easier way to get vampire blood other than attacking a vampire is to marry one.


    It's possible Zero is the secret fiancee of Yori mentioned in the fanbook . But if this is true , I think the reason for this is a little different . It could be that their marriage was arranged before Zero was turned by Shizuka into a vampire . Maybe the Council / Senate / Parlament / political human group from whom Yori's father is an important member , wanted to improve their relationship with the Vampire Hunter Association by marrying Yori to the most probable future Vampire Hunter Association President . Zero was probably the best candidate for the post since he was a little kid . He was from one of the oldest and distinguished hunter's families . He survive the hunter's curse , assimilating a lot of his twins powers in the process . Zero most probably had show a lot of promise as a top tier hunter in his trainings . So there is a good probability both the Wabaka family and the Hunter's Association made a deal involving the future marriage of Zero and Yori .

    But if Yori is really Zero's fiancee . I don't think it has to be because he's a vampire . Actually , I think if the Wabaka family knows about this , the bethoyal would be broken in an instant . Because for the little is shown so far about Yori's father , he is pro - vampire helping humans / likes the idea of coexistance between humans and vampires . But I don't think he would accept his precious daughter being bitten by a vampire . When this could mean Yori becoming anemic or even dying because of this .

    What the human political faction would like to get is blood from a pureblood vampire . To be used as panacea for whatever illness or condition a human could have . As the previous Vampire Hunte'rs President wanted to get pureblood's blood ( Rido's ) from the Vampire Senate to prevent aging and keep him looking beautiful . If this is what they would want , getting Zero marry Yori doesn't resolve anything . As Zero is not a pureblood vampire . Even more , Zero being a vampire is kind of a big secret outside the Vampire Hunter's Association and some pureblood vampires as Yuuki , Kaname and Sara .
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    Re: the Morality and Ethics of the Hunters (chapter 75)

    Post by caela on Thu Oct 06, 2011 3:31 am

    Its clear to me that Juliet, you are an optimist who believes that all people are good deep down inside.

    I don't think we would be able to understand each other when it comes to this topic of human nature.

    Please keep an open mind though, and I'll try to do the same.

    Juliet:
    In a way that’s a lesson for them. The only way that they can survive from the queen bee and every potential queen bee that may come on their way is to develop defense mechanisms based on logic and reason.

    Edit: "defense mechanisms based on logic and reason": The reason I interpreted your statement without considering this phrase is because any mechanism that is part of a government is only as ethical as the person using the mechanism. Kind of like a gun. A gun has no morals. It is the person using the gun who determines if it is good or bad.

    In a world where everyone is thinking and relying on logic and reason is a world that is impossible. There will always be selfish people and not-so-smart people. If Kaname's solution is to make a utopia where everyone is both moral and intelligent, good luck Kaname. (Unless Kaname aims to kill alot of people, like half of everyone, also Yuuki would have to pass the intelligence exam [I'm glad that chapter 75 shows Yuuki thinking])

    A system that relies on fear will always have to be at least a part of the new system(s) that Kaname is forming because there will always be people who commit crimes and there will have to be a punishment for that crime (to convince others not to do the crime also).

    Not to say that a new government based partially on trust couldn't work: but a pureblood or something would still have to play enforcer for the criminals.

    So far Kaname has tried:

    (1)Being the pureblood Vampire King and helping the first hunters organize: This didn't work. This lead to some major Human-Vampire war and one of Kaname's sons or grandsons had a different solution...

    (2) Vampire Council (nobles instead of purebloods), regular human government and Hunter Association: Kaname is still not happy and killed the council. Kaname might still do something similar to the Hunter's.

    Kaname's descendant who was the last vampire king tried taking purebloods out of the leadership, thinking that purebloods was the problem. After these two experiments with vampire leadership, it is now clear that every racial group is part of the problem. (purebloods, nobles, other vampires, humans, hunters)

    (3) So far we don't know what Kaname wants next. I think the problem could be solved if the hunters and vampires could have one government. Having two or three separate systems is a problem in itself.

    Mariangie:
    sorry, a little tired so what I wrote might be sloppy.

    ...getting Zero marry Yori doesn't resolve anything . As Zero is not a pureblood vampire . Even more , Zero being a vampire is kind of a big secret outside the Vampire Hunter's Association and some pureblood vampires as Yuuki , Kaname and Sara .

    This might belong in the Sara's tablets thread, but the science behind cloning blood cells is probably part of the research and development of Takuma's company. (It gets impractical and expensive to have humans give blood for money and dehydrate the blood into a tablet versus mass production) If the science of the VK world is that advanced, even getting some of Zero's blood would be worth the laboratory time and research.

    How many people know that Zero is a vampire?

    The night class (the Rido fight kind of gave it away), the entire Hunter Association and any pureblood with a working nose. I know that earlier on, Zero still smelled human, but according to Sara, Zero reeks of pureblood, so I don't know how Zero is smelling now. It's possible that any vampire could smell Zero and figure out he is a vampire.

    Also, the orders that Kaien had in chapter 50 for Zero's promotion came from the human Board of Directors. There is a possibility that board chose Zero because they knew Zero is both a vampire and a cursed hunter twin.

    Yes, Zero is not an ideal husband for a human. The bite-buddy relationship between Zero and human Yuuki for the first arc would have killed Yuuki eventually. I think in chapter 30, Kaname mentioned that the intervals between feeding was getting shorter for Zero. Also chapter 29 is where Zero dreamed that he killed Yuuki with overdrinking.

    So my conclusion: I don't know.

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    Re: the Morality and Ethics of the Hunters (chapter 75)

    Post by nina on Thu Oct 06, 2011 5:22 am

    caela wrote:There is a board of Directors who are in charge of the Association and Councilman Wakaba (Yori's hotshot dad who we can't even see the face of) is one of the board members.

    http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/71/3

    http://www.mangareader.net/104-2179-6/vampire-knight/chapter-51.html

    The above link is Yagari discussing the intentions of the Board of Directors:

    Yagari: For [the directors of the board who know about vampires] ...The vampires' superior intelligence and special skills are inevitibly something those men are burning to exploit. And they are also thinking that if they "do things right", they should be able to get their hands on the vampires' longevity as well.

    1. From where being evident that the board of directors are in charge of the HA?
    Yagari says clearly “the board of directors OF THE SCHOOL” meaning obviously the board of the academy not of the government. >>





    http://www.mangareader.net/104-2179-4/vampire-knight/chapter-51.html

    2. Yagari: “The board of the directors HERE (meaning the school) is composed of nothing but influent people with power both in politics AND THE FINANCIAL WORLD”

    So it’s clear that this board in question isn’t any government’s tool since in this board are participating AND people influential in financial world. From what I understood the board is composed from the parents of the students of Cross academy who happens to be very powerful people in politics (as Yori’s father congressman Wakaba) and in business world.

    And Yagari continues by saying that even if some of them (board’s members) did not know the truth about the nature of the NC still have found the idea of the NC appealing cuz of the elite background of the students’ families (>> apparently means the families of the NC who as we know were from nobles’ clans).

    But there are some people among the board that they know about vampires and yes are burning to exploit the superiors skills and intelligence of the nobles’ vampires as well as their longevity. >>>
    http://www.mangareader.net/104-2179-6/vampire-knight/chapter-51.html

    And exactly because of the above ^^^ views of the board the PREVIOUS NC was created>> Yagari: “It’s no wonder this school could create something like the NC Cross …” http://www.mangareader.net/104-2179-5/vampire-knight/chapter-51.html

    So from where is coming this conclusion? >>

    Yagari sees himself as not exactly protecting vampires but stopping the board of directors from getting vampire blood.

    For me Yagari just describes the “unhealthy” situation between vampires and humans there … and sheds light on how humans can use vampires as well if they have the chance for their own benefit ofc >> Yagari: “It’s no wonder this school could create something like the NC Cross …”. Apparently the hidden purpose behind the creation of the NC weren’t so pure or originated from the idea of co-existence and I mean for the board not for Kaien lol.

    Yagari was obviously against the idea of the NC from the very beginning but not because he wanted to stop the board from “abuse” the vampires’ blood but cuz he doesn’t believe in the idea of co-existence and cuz he doesn’t trust vampires being so close to humans’ students. Therefore the reason of Kaien’s arrest was exactly the creation of the NC which eventually put in danger the students of the DC hence Kaien considered as the responsible one.

    The ethics for the Hunter's is complex because they do not govern themselves: a few powerful humans are in control of them. Yagari and Kaien are walking the balancing act of satisfying their own followers and the needs of their human bosses, who probably want some pureblood.

    Based on what? Shocked Where is stated in the manga that HA is under control of powerful people? Please provide the scans.

    As far as I know HA is a totally different organization from Cross academy. Cross academy yes has a board which control or better the chairman of the academy has to collaborate and report to the board.

    Also the chairman of the academy and the president of the HA is again two different positions!

    The fact that the chairman of the academy can’t run it without the consent of the board doesn’t mean that this apply for the president of the HA as well.

    In chapter 50, before Kaien was telling Zero that Zero will be getting a promotion, Kaien asked Zero about if Zero will try to hunt down Kaname. Zero then said "no," and that is when Kaien told Zero about the possible promotion. If Zero has said "yes," it looks like Kaien would have not allowed a Zero promotion. Kaien and Yagari do recieve orders from this Board of Directors, but Kaien and Yagari have some say as to whether or not they will follow the orders.

    First of all Zero didn’t say a firmly NO he won’t hunt down Kaname but he won’t YET! Because they needed Kaname to control the vampires. There is a HUGE difference! And Kaien wasn’t much convinced/pleased from Zero’s wording as he says “Really?” and touches the broken glass which caused from Zero’s dark feelings/thoughts/hate about Kaname >>
    http://www.mangareader.net/104-2178-25/vampire-knight/chapter-50.html

    But apparently the decision wasn’t Kaien’s … at least not only his decision (and I’m not saying that Kaien is against the idea) . Yagari as the de facto president of the HA supports the idea of Zero becoming one day the president because he believes that the ONLY qualification for the job is raw power and nothing else!

    The beneath conversation between Yagari and Jimnou is quite enlightening >>

    Jimnou’s objections about Zero >>
    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/vampire_knight/v11/c052/28.html

    Yagari’s view on the matter >>”All that matters is IF the guy is powerful enough to control the rest of the hunters BY FEAR >>>
    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/vampire_knight/v11/c052/29.html

    Obviously the hunters need their own “queen bee” and Yagari is the biggest fan of that system …

    I still say the Hunter Association is not strong enough to hunt purebloods. Maybe Zero is (but he is not stronger than Kaname), AND Yagari should be aware of what the Association is capable and not capable of doing.

    I agree … they know their “limits” and that’s why came in handy the supposedly plan of Kaname to exterminate all the PBs … the hunters seems very cunning lol

    I still say that Yagari's mutiny is a cover for some other intention that Yagari has. It doesn't have to be a complex explanation, it could be something as simple as Kaien is the real president and therefore is subject to the Board of Directors. If both Yagari and Kaien want to disobey orders of the Board, Yagari would choose to be the one to be seen going against the wishes of the Board, then Kaien won't be the one to suffer the second black mark on his record and the bigger punishment. Therefore, Yagari would chose to mutiny.

    Yagari made this promise and started the mutiny to keep the not-so-smart hunters happy(sorry zero) plus the mutiny might be a way of keeping Kaien out of trouble with the board of directors, so Kaien that won't get that scary unknown punishment.

    I wouldn’t give so much credit to Yagari haha … and the real president is Yagari not Kaien as it staeted in the manga.

    Your whole rationale is based on wrong interpretation … the Board has nothing to do with the Hunters Association!

    Congressman Wakaba is a member of the government BUT as it seems he is also a member of the board of the academy thus Kaien wanted his collaboration/approval for the re-opening of the NC! He wasn’t asking his cooperation/help as a member of the government BUT as a distinguished member of the school’s board who also happens due to his high position as a congressman to know about the existence of the vampires. Kaien went there as the chairman of the academy but due to his dual position takes the responsibility for the safety of the school as well.
    http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/71/2 http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/71/3

    If anything, the largest corruption in the Hunter Association is not in the Hunter Assocaiation itself, but the Board of Directors, who probably want vampire blood.

    HA is an independent organization and does not take orders from the Board of directors. However the seed of the corruption is in both of them for different reasons.
    HA flaws are:
    - They can’t tell the right from wrong … they can’t distinguish the bad PBs from the good ones thus they want all the PBs dead.
    - They have the license to kill vampires without any consequence … killing vampires isn’t a crime.
    - They choose their president based only on raw power in order to inflict fear. It’s exactly how vampires’ society views the PBs as their queens’ bees. (btw I do not mean that Zero is a queen bee or that he will “abuse” the power of his position … however this doesn’t mean that he wasn’t chosen based on the idea of the “queen bee” due to his powers)

    Board’s flaws: This faction represents humans’ kind thus theirs views/intentions insert the human factor into the complex equation of co-existence.

    - They burning to exploit and to use I guess the blood of the PBs and probably of the nobles as well. In other words are available to “exchange” favors with an evil PB for example as the former president of HA did in the past … And to make it more specific … who can exclude the possibility some of this kind of people to cope with Sara? …

    That’s why I have said that the entire society (mankind. Hunters, vampires) has to change in order to be established a true co-existence cuz as it seems both races are potentially victims and victimizers …







    "... I want to fall down with you to the very farthest depths ... taint me too Kaname"



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    Re: the Morality and Ethics of the Hunters (chapter 75)

    Post by caela on Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:53 am

    Nina:
    That’s why I have said that the entire society (mankind. Hunters, vampires) has to change in order to be established a true co-existence cuz as it seems both races are potentially victims and victimizers …

    Yup, so far I haven't said otherwise. I haven't seen anything on this thread contradicting that statement.

    *********

    The whole post I wrote about Hunter Association being controlled about board of Directors

    I made the assumption that the school's board of directors is in charge of the Hunter association. So whatever conclusions I made based on that first assumption is wrong (I made alot of jumps from the first one), as you very competently and exhaustively pointed out Nina. Must have gotten a bit boring for you. I never liked paperwork myself. I'll make the time to strike through the offending post of mine.

    *********

    Nina
    And Yagari continues by saying that even if some of them (board’s members) did not know the truth about the nature of the NC still have found the idea of the NC appealing cuz of the elite background of the students’ families (>> apparently means the families of the NC who as we know were from nobles’ clans).

    But there are some people among the board that they know about vampires and yes are burning to exploit the superiors skills and intelligence of the nobles’ vampires as well as their longevity. >>>


    And exactly because of the above ^^^ views of the board the PREVIOUS NC was created>> Yagari: “It’s no wonder this school could create something like the NC Cross …”

    [url=http://www.mangareader.net/104-2179-5/vampire-knight/chapter-51.html]http://www.mangareader.net/104-2179-5/vampire-knight/chapter-51.html

    So from where is coming this conclusion? >>

    caela
    Yagari sees himself as not exactly protecting vampires but stopping the board of directors from getting vampire blood.


    For me Yagari just describes the “unhealthy” situation between vampires and humans there … and sheds light on how humans can use vampires as well if they have the chance for their own benefit ofc >> Yagari: “It’s no wonder this school could create something like the NC Cross …”. Apparently the hidden purpose behind the creation of the NC weren’t so pure or originated from the idea of co-existence and I mean for the board not for Kaien lol.

    Yagari was obviously against the idea of the NC from the very beginning but not because he wanted to stop the board from “abuse” the vampires’ blood but cuz he doesn’t believe in the idea of co-existence and cuz he doesn’t trust vampires being so close to humans’ students.

    I don't see how Yagari is against the idea of coexistence from what was provided. I can see him not trusting the Night class students to be good while being so close to human beings, especially since in the previous night class incidents did happen (Aidou getting some human Yuuki blood, random day class student bitten by random night class student [chapter 24]). Yagari is obviously comfortable with Zero, who is a vampire.

    Yes, Yagari was probably against the new night class. I still think that based on the statement I provided that he would stop someone on that board from accessing pureblood or vampire blood, if only because the consequences of such an abuse of power can only complicate matters for the Hunter Association. The possibility of even more vampires cannot be comfortable for Yagari.

    **************

    Nina
    Therefore the reason of Kaien’s arrest was exactly the creation of the NC which eventually put in danger the students of the DC hence Kaien considered as the responsible one.

    Interesting. Since Kaien killed the former president of the Hunter Association, then the only people left to punish Kaien for his crimes would be Yagari and the rest of the Hunters.

    In chapter 50, before Kaien was telling Zero that Zero will be getting a promotion, Kaien asked Zero about if Zero will try to hunt down Kaname. Zero then said "no," and that is when Kaien told Zero about the possible promotion. If Zero has said "yes," it looks like Kaien would have not allowed a Zero promotion. Kaien and Yagari do recieve orders from this Board of Directors, but Kaien and Yagari have some say as to whether or not they will follow the orders.


    First of all Zero didn’t say a firmly NO he won’t hunt down Kaname but he won’t YET! Because they needed Kaname to control the vampires. There is a HUGE difference! And Kaien wasn’t much convinced/pleased from Zero’s wording as he says “Really?” and touches the broken glass which caused from Zero’s dark feelings/thoughts/hate about Kaname >>
    http://www.mangareader.net/104-2178-25/vampire-knight/chapter-50.html

    But apparently the decision wasn’t Kaien’s … at least not only his decision (and I’m not saying that Kaien is against the idea) . Yagari as the de facto president of the HA supports the idea of Zero becoming one day the president because he believes that the ONLY qualification for the job is raw power and nothing else!

    The beneath conversation between Yagari and Jimnou is quite enlightening >>

    Jimnou’s objections about Zero >>
    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/vampire_knight/v11/c052/28.html

    Yagari’s view on the matter >>”All that matters is IF the guy is powerful enough to control the rest of the hunters BY FEAR >>>
    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/vampire_knight/v11/c052/29.html

    Obviously the hunters need their own “queen bee” and Yagari is the biggest fan of that system …

    Kaname's son (or grandson) already tried a non-queen bee route, the vampire council, and that still was a failure. Also, ruling by fear and power is not a problem unless the queen bee is corrupt. Maybe its time to change the bee.

    I don't know what Kaname is trying to replace the Vampire Council with, but overriding the very basic tendency to follow a strong leader, whether you are human or vampire, is pretty difficult. The other extreme of everyone in charge of themselves is anarchy and chaos. He might be trying for something in the middle of both extremes. Who knows?

    nina
    caela
    I still say the Hunter Association is not strong enough to hunt purebloods. Maybe Zero is (but he is not stronger than Kaname), AND Yagari should be aware of what the Association is capable and not capable of doing.

    I agree … they know their “limits” and that’s why came in handy the supposedly plan of Kaname to exterminate all the PBs … the hunters seems very cunning lol

    I'm glad we agreed a second time. This supposed plan of the Hunters also involves waiting around for Kaname to commit suicide. Its not very cunning to depend on wishful thinking though. As much as there is alot of attention on the "Kaname's sacrifice" thread, I don't see Kaname about to kill himself or use some spell to make Yuuki into a human, which only makes her vulnerable.

    **********

    In chapter 50, before Kaien was telling Zero that Zero will be getting a promotion, Kaien asked Zero about if Zero will try to hunt down Kaname. Zero then said "no," and that is when Kaien told Zero about the possible promotion. If Zero has said "yes," it looks like Kaien would have not allowed a Zero promotion. Kaien and Yagari do recieve orders from this Board of Directors, but Kaien and Yagari have some say as to whether or not they will follow the orders.


    First of all Zero didn’t say a firmly NO he won’t hunt down Kaname but he won’t YET! Because they needed Kaname to control the vampires. There is a HUGE difference! And Kaien wasn’t much convinced/pleased from Zero’s wording as he says “Really?” and touches the broken glass which caused from Zero’s dark feelings/thoughts/hate about Kaname >>
    http://www.mangareader.net/104-2178-25/vampire-knight/chapter-50.html

    But apparently the decision wasn’t Kaien’s … at least not only his decision (and I’m not saying that Kaien is against the idea) . Yagari as the de facto president of the HA supports the idea of Zero becoming one day the president because he believes that the ONLY qualification for the job is raw power and nothing else!

    I chose not to get too involved with the details because we are already at chapter 75, and Zero made it clear in the current chapter that he would be the last person to chase down and stop Kaname, which is a large difference from wanting to hunt Kaname down. Also, my aim was to show that Kaien has some power as president, so I wasn't trying to focus on Zero.

    Also, I don't get into describing things that are a matter of degree. Takes too much time and typing, as you were able to see for yourself.

    ************

    Nina
    I wouldn’t give so much credit to Yagari haha … and the real president is Yagari not Kaien as it staeted in the manga.

    http://www.mangareader.net/104-2179-7/vampire-knight/chapter-51.html

    Notice Yagari called himself the de facto president.

    I am unable to get on the oxford english dictionary online (I'm not about to spend the money or the time to get on it, even though it is the gold standard) so I was forced to pull out wikipedia:

    De facto
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    For other uses, see De facto (disambiguation).
    "Defacto" redirects here. For the steamship, see SS Defacto.

    De facto (English pronunciation: /diː ˈfæktoʊ/, /deɪ/[1]) is a Latin expression that means "by [the] fact." In law, it often means "in practice but not necessarily ordained by law" or "in practice or actuality, but not officially established."

    Yagari has the power of the president but legally, Kaien is the president. If Yagari holds a mutiny, then Kaien's indiscretion of chasing Kaname is now less important because Kaien is no longer the legal president.

    Here is my orginal post based on my faulty assumption:
    I still say that Yagari's mutiny is a cover for some other intention that Yagari has. It doesn't have to be a complex explanation, it could be something as simple as Kaien is the real president and therefore is subject to the Board of Directors. If both Yagari and Kaien want to disobey orders of the Board, Yagari would choose to be the one to be seen going against the wishes of the Board, then Kaien won't be the one to suffer the second black mark on his record and the bigger punishment. Therefore, Yagari would chose to mutiny.

    I'm glad I was able to change your mind on:
    Kaien was a tool from the very beginning with no real authority to make his decisions.

    I need some sleep and will fix my mistake-filled post tommorrow. Nina, thanks for the corrections.




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    Re: the Morality and Ethics of the Hunters (chapter 75)

    Post by nina on Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:45 pm

    caela wrote: I made the assumption that the school's board of directors is in charge of the Hunter association. So whatever conclusions I made based on that first assumption is wrong (I made alot of jumps from the first one), as you very competently and exhaustively pointed out Nina. Must have gotten a bit boring for you. I never liked paperwork myself. I'll make the time to strike through the offending post of mine.

    Glad to know that I helped XD. And your previous posts weren’t offending (I never said something like that) only that it was based on misinterpretations.

    I don't see how Yagari is against the idea of coexistence from what was provided.



    I’m basing my opinion about Yagari’s and the rest of the hunters’ view for the idea of co-existence on their entire stance, 1st and 2nd arc. I’m not gonna go through in details cuz the examples are spread all over the story. But the most strong evidence IMO for their views is Kaien’s arrest after the incidents in the academy last year >>
    http://www.mangareader.net/104-2171-27/vampire-knight/chapter-45.html

    That’s why I said previously: “Therefore the reason of Kaien’s arrest was exactly the creation of the NC which eventually put in danger the students of the DC hence Kaien considered as the responsible one.”


    Interesting. Since Kaien killed the former president of the Hunter Association, then the only people left to punish Kaien for his crimes would be Yagari and the rest of the Hunters.

    Exactly … although they saw with their own eyes the corruption into HA but mostly that the NC protected the DC from the attackers who were sent from their president and the senate >>

    http://www.mangareader.net/104-2173-10/vampire-knight/chapter-47.html
    http://www.mangareader.net/104-2173-11/vampire-knight/chapter-47.html
    http://www.mangareader.net/104-2173-12/vampire-knight/chapter-47.html

    >> in other words the NC was a successful “experiment” still they arrested Kaien. The danger which threatened the DC wasn’t posed from inside the academy i.e. the NC but from the outside.

    However I give credit to Yagari during this incident for been open minded and for standing up to Kaien but in the end agreed with his arrest I guess and now sees him as an “obstacle” for their objectives.


    Kaname's son (or grandson) already tried a non-queen bee route, the vampire council, and that still was a failure. Also, ruling by fear and power is not a problem unless the queen bee is corrupt. Maybe its time to change the bee.

    I agree that the senate was a failure as it proved. However the problem of a ruling system based ONLY on fear and power is exactly what you have pointed out … what happens if the “queen bee” is corrupted? If the controlled mass of the “queen” is blind and afraid followers they can’t see the corruption … as the hunters didn’t see the corruption of their former president or the vampires didn’t see the corruption of the senate and still seeing the PBs as “holy” creatures even if they abuse their superior powers. Which brings me to the beneath point >>

    I don't know what Kaname is trying to replace the Vampire Council with, but overriding the very basic tendency to follow a strong leader, whether you are human or vampire, is pretty difficult. The other extreme of everyone in charge of themselves is anarchy and chaos. He might be trying for something in the middle of both extremes. Who knows?


    Lol … I don’t know either haha …

    Although I agree on the necessity of a leader and that should be strong but is this the ONLY needed qualification? Where are the morals and the ethics as criteria? And this is what I think Kaname trying to change … the way the entire society “choosing” their leaders each time. They have to base their choice on logic and not on fear, violent instincts, or blind worship. That’s why I also support the idea of Zero becoming the president of HA one day … but not ONLY because of his power as a hunter but cuz I have faith that eventually he’ll be able to distinguish the right from wrong (the bad vampire/PB from the good one) i.e. he has also morals except from raw power.

    This supposed plan of the Hunters also involves waiting around for Kaname to commit suicide. Its not very cunning to depend on wishful thinking though. As much as there is alot of attention on the "Kaname's sacrifice" thread, I don't see Kaname about to kill himself or use some spell to make Yuuki into a human, which only makes her vulnerable.

    We do not know if they’re waiting Kaname to commit suicide … this is never stated in the manga. Actually I think they do not know what to expect from him. However for the time being are comfortable with what he’s doing cuz they think is for their own benefit (that’s why I said they are cunning) but we do not know how are planning to “exterminate” Kaname in the end if they have to. Maybe they’re counting on Zero … Idk either.

    Notice Yagari called himself the de facto president.
    De facto (English pronunciation: /diː ˈfæktoʊ/, /deɪ/[1]) is a Latin expression that means "by [the] fact." In law, it often means "in practice but not necessarily ordained by law" or "in practice or actuality, but not officially established."
    Yagari has the power of the president but legally, Kaien is the president. If Yagari holds a mutiny, then Kaien's indiscretion of chasing Kaname is now less important because Kaien is no longer the legal president.

    I can’t see where we disagree on this scratch … this is exactly what I supported. Yagari as the de facto president has the power and Cross is only for the appearance … for the rest ones outside the HA.
    So I don’t know either if we can call Yagari’s act as mutiny since they do not mind Yuuki inform Kaien about their little meeting.

    I'm glad I was able to change your mind on:
    nina wrote: Kaien was a tool from the very beginning with no real authority to make his decisions.

    I changed my mind on what????? Shocked








    "... I want to fall down with you to the very farthest depths ... taint me too Kaname"



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    *wants to sneak under these bed sheets*
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    Re: the Morality and Ethics of the Hunters (chapter 75)

    Post by juliet on Thu Oct 06, 2011 3:20 pm

    "defense mechanisms based on logic and reason": The reason I interpreted your statement without considering this phrase is because any mechanism that is part of a government is only as ethical as the person using the mechanism. Kind of like a gun. A gun has no morals. It is the person using the gun who determines if it is good or bad.

    In our world, which is governed by reason and not instincts, we have developed such mechanisms;
    We select our leaders, we judge them, we are capable of expressing our opinion, even able to protest if we feel that the current system does not worth the leadership, or never vote them again. So, we have set a system that actually functions on its own device. It is not an ideal but it is enough to ensure the peace of the many in a broader scale peace among nations. You do not need to be smart or intelligent, because apparently the norms and the constitutions protect even the right to be stupid, since there are laws and there are organizations that protect the poor, the ones that never went to school ect. Furthermore, no one forces you to be moral but the society has developed a system where you are taught and trained certain values; through education, social interaction, acceptance and recognition you learn to adapt to the norms.

    Our free world is not made from angels, apparently, many things need to change and need to improve but it is a passable way of living and enjoying life.

    But in VK we are talking about insticts (haha return to the basics)...

    In VK the purebloods are actually untouchable because their existence is considered sacred and their lives are valuable. This is an element (the taboo not the purebloods) that has to go first in order for the society to be able to make selections and eventually start advancing by using its own mechanisms for defense against the evil. So there is a great difference:

    Nobles want the blood of the purebloods; actually see them as a treasure, can either worship and fear them; if they could manipulate it they would have done it, since they can’t they are content to follow blind the pureblood’s authority without actually caring if that’s right or wrong.

    Purebloods are able to manipulate anyone they wish and remain untouchable due to the high power they represent. Or are not even concerned to do anything (the good ones as they have their own issues with immortality) when there is actually a time of need.

    Humans are trying to exploit the blood of the vampires for their own benefits.
    Hunters want all purebloods dead driven by their instincts and interests. Their quote is “Killing a vampire is not a crime”.

    When Kaname says to the vampire council "but the coexistence you've spoken is a very long way away...in order to achieve it, we must ALL become rational beings instead of acting on our fierce animal insticts"...I do not think that he was reffering to an utopia but to the actual need for the current culture and ways to change; both of vampires and hunters, they are not like us. They are not like us at all. They are fictional and blood thirsty.

    How clever do you need to be in order to understand that “No, you can kill ALL purebloods because it saves you work and you really do not like them? How smart should you be in order to judge that this is WRONG…”
    Or vice versa…
    How smart or moral should you be in order to understand that if you worship a pureblood just because he is a pureblood and that is your only criteria to follow his requests and demands that may change a whole town in level e vampires?

    A system that relies on fear will always have to be at least a part of the new system(s) that Kaname is forming because there will always be people who commit crimes and there will have to be a punishment for that crime (to convince others not to do the crime also).

    The system should not rely on fear, should rely on logic, but with absolute cold logic and not instincts (as in VK) it can use fear in order to retaliate phenomenons such as violence, crime…apparently there is a great difference here because in this case you try to describe, such as the enforcement of law and punishments (I suspect), the fear of the punishment is directed exclusively to the evil and the bad ones or the criminals.
    It is not forced, neither applied in order to serve the benefits of the few on the expense of the many but to protect the rights of the many in relation to the harmful behaviors of the few. Therefore, the use of fear is again reasonable based on logic and not instincts.

    Not to say that a new government based partially on trust couldn't work: but a pureblood or something would still have to play enforcer for the criminals.
    Or the hunters can do it, if they drop down their instincts and their lazy behavior, they can do miracles with the power they posses.



    (1)Being the pureblood Vampire King and helping the first hunters organize: This didn't work. This lead to some major Human-Vampire war and one of Kaname's sons or grandsons had a different solution...

    the war had started as we saw, Kurans took the monarchy to stop the wars its stated by Kaname in chapter? (after the ball when he explains to Yuuki how the purebloods number decreased).

    (2) Vampire Council (nobles instead of purebloods), regular human government and Hunter Association: Kaname is still not happy and killed the council. Kaname might still do something similar to the Hunter's.

    The council was corrupted to the root, they had released Rido, they were nurishing level-e, they treated humans as slaves; that was Asato's ideology anymore, apparently not only the did not supported 'common good and co-existence but they were against it. Asato abused the power of the council to apply his own ideologies...again why the rest vampire society did not react? this is what I say vampire society can not proceed without values other than her insticts so change has to come from the inside.

    Kaname's descendant who was the last vampire king tried taking purebloods out of the leadership, thinking that purebloods was the problem. After these two experiments with vampire leadership, it is now clear that every racial group is part of the problem. (purebloods, nobles, other vampires, humans, hunters)

    He did it on order to give to constitute the senate where all vampires could talk and discuss matters (stated in the fanbook), so yes no concentration of power on one person or familly. But again this system fail because the vampires were given to their own insticts> insticts not just interests because Asato's goal was to have humans as slaves. So this suggests that an organization is not enough to bring change, Change has to come with other means.

    Perhaps from consciousness of how weak and in danger they are when they are apathetic to what happens around them and when they submit to inside insticts. This is why I say that now actually they get a lesson, because now that they feel threaten and betrayed, now the nobles finally saw what should make a representative therefore and say to Yuuki "why to believe you or why to trust you?"...so isn't that a form of awakening? somehow...

    (3) So far we don't know what Kaname wants next. I think the problem could be solved if the hunters and vampires could have one government. Having two or three separate systems is a problem in itself.

    I agree, I think that true coexistence can only come with common cooperation from both sides but with true intentions and not apathy or insticts getting in the way with the first excuse, therefore I think that change is deamnded first in their culture and then to their institutions. I think that's the point where the previous forms failed.






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    Re: the Morality and Ethics of the Hunters (chapter 75)

    Post by Orleans87 on Sat Nov 12, 2011 1:41 am

    excuse my insufficient English Embarassed

    Ok, the first point is that this is written by a woman who tries to write an interesting story. It is almost predictable that certain plot devices would be used to pilot the story to a satisfying end for Sensei.

    There are a lot of people who hate Kaname for his mysterious, rather cold hearted and cruel character. Hino -Sensei certainly noticed this and tries to bring other characters on his level of evilness. (Maybe) confused

    That this works proofs the OP. She excuses Kaname's abominable behavior with the behavior of the Hunters so that Kaname can be seen as better, even though he isn't. The others aren't better but that doesn't excuse Kaname either.

    From the story's point of view, I think there couldn't have been another way to portray the Hunters without the story being repetitive and idiotic. Hino-Sensei has my fullest respect.

    Kaien has this utopic idea that Vampires and Humans could live in harmony, although it is impossible in the first place. Even the structure of the school (night and day class etc..) makes an interaction and mutual understanding null and void, especially if the humans don't even know that the night-class are vampires.
    The other thing is that Kaname supports this idea just to keep Yuuki save. I don't think that he really cares about the humans at all. Just look at what he thinks about Zero. Ok, he is a hunter and he is jealous of him being with Yuuki, but the point is, Zero is a Level D and Kuran certainly sees him like an inferior and treats him like it. He uses him and others as chess pieces etc.

    So with his obvious racist views, how should the coexistence with human work? NOT AT ALL!

    He knows no barriers, not even with his Pureblood "equals". He is the Kuran ancestor, the king, and he really behaves this way. He is relatively unstable to be a leader at all, because his subjects are easily disposable if it is for the sake of Yuuki. He doesn't even has an inner conflict because of it. That makes him extremely dangerous.

    The Hunters ( who are hypocrites them self) and Zero know that. Especially Zero who knows Kuran to a certain extent. Also don't forget Zero's meeting with Shizuka and Rido. I hope you remember those under superiority-complex suffering psychopaths.

    The Hunters do make use of Kuran killing the other pure bloods. They would be stupid if they didn't. They are very strong and dangerous to them and the normal humans.

    I mean, think about it, those pure bloods were sleeping for ages. The society changed but if their views changed? I don't think so. And why should the Hunters give a flying F*** about those "creatures", they don't even know, except certain characteristic traits?

    They can watch while Kuran kills the danger off and have better chances to survive and eventually dispose of Kuran later on.

    Kaien and Yuuki are naive and blind. They look like the only decent people in VK, but their notions are infantile and ridiculous. The proof is even right in front of their noses. They just have to look what's happening around them.

    Doesn't Coexistence has something to do with understanding the other and in return to be understood? It doesn't really help to kill off People who are against this, because they don't have the same opinion. The choice is, follow or die. There is no real effort to change those racist views it's just commanded by Kuran. ( who doesn't really care either)
    The school didn't help either.

    Don't misunderstand me, I love the character Kuran and the series, but I take it for what it is.
    A suspenseful story where the boundaries between good and evil blur together. We have one constant in there, and this is Yuuki.
    However I hope she will take off her rose colored glasses. She annoys me right now. (and many times before)
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    Re: the Morality and Ethics of the Hunters (chapter 75)

    Post by juliet on Sat Nov 12, 2011 1:54 am

    but couldn't all of these be a scenario trap for us to fall for it? just like the hunters did?
    @ ocean...there are two ways to go here either you believe kaname's intention or you do not...in case you believe them, as the hunters did lol, as he presents them to be (and his effort there is great) then your post is valid (concerning the part that he follows a blood shed and wrong route), if you do not believe them then apparently this is an attempt that he makes to build a bad profile for himself and his plan is provoked by other motives, his targets are specific and the reasons are connected to his still concealed past...there are many things in your post that i would like to refer to and debate but its late now...so i reserve myself for another hour.









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    Re: the Morality and Ethics of the Hunters (chapter 75)

    Post by sweetsolace on Sat Nov 12, 2011 5:12 am

    @orleans87

    this is pretty off topic. The thread discusses the morality of hunters, not morality of Kaname or the purebloods. Razz I think its clear where you are paying attention to..
    the hunters are creating folly in their own way which I don't think compares to Kaname's actions.
    the hunters actions and intentions are clear and we can make judgment based on that. But Kaname's isn't, IMO his actions are only on the surface level.
    The hunters are seemingly playing around by themselves as if they care nothing more than to ease the load of their job. Kaname's, however, seems multi layered-- for example, The hunters believe he is killing all purebloods, but in reality he only kills the head of the families. And I don't think they know he helped with the investigation of the tablets.
    Another thing. the hunters are obviously flawed and obviously distracted from the real conflict happening right under their noses---which is Sara's tablets that can harm HUMANS. Their job is to protect humans and they're PAYING ATTENTION to Kaname who's killing VAMPIRES, because of their primal instinct to hate. IMO its probably not even in their job description to butt in vampire business, they are wasting time gossiping about their leader who has a more peaceful approach than them and talking about vampire business. The hunters are being more unfair to vampires than vampires are unfair to humans. It's not about using them as a distraction, because obviously they had their issues with sticking to their job descriptions.


    Doesn't Coexistence has something to do with understanding the other and in return to be understood?
    The word coexist means to be able to exist in one place, together, in harmony, without the vampires eating the humans. IMO Kaien's idea was to make a place where this can happen, and where the idea of vampires existence can still be concealed. Some humans get scared knowing scary creatures like vampires exist, and some choose not to know their existence as what happened after the academy was attacked. From this you can say its pretty futile for humans to know vampire existence, as the real problem of coexistence lies in vampire nature. All this stuff about humans knowing vampires exists is pretty unrealistic on the other hand, if they knew about it, what can they do about it? At most they will just get scared about being bitten. Or if they arm themselves to the teeth upon knowing their existence, what the hell was the use of "peaceful" coexistence when humans have weapons to defend themselves, it doesn't prove anything except that vampires are bad incapable of peace>> the humans will naturally think they are monsters. So I don't think its even a solution.

    @Kaname not caring about the humans
    the attack on the academy made by Rido would be proof against this. He had every opportunity to take Yuki and escape, but he stayed to defend the humans thru the night class and even allowed Yuki to stay back and defend the school against his wishes.
    time and again Kaname had defended humans throughout his stay in the academy, discreetly, thru ordering the night class to slay level E's as well as arresting vampires causing mischief to the humans in the school.
    Its actually impossible to say that he doesnt care, as one of the purpose he agreed to stay in the academy is to practice coexistence as agreed together with Kaien---in short he must watch over humans . In fact, I believe he had done that job more than Kaien ever did. Not just to protect Yuki.

    @Kaname being racist
    If he is even remotely racist I don't think he would give him his blood or try to court Yuki as a human openly and in public. Humans inferior than vampires. If he is racist he wouldn't talk to the humans or have anything to do with them. He would crush them under his foot and laugh about it, obviously he did none of these.

    @Kaname's ways
    His ways are more clear cut and deliberate. He is a vampire and understanding vampire nature means it includes domination and superior-inferior, this is commonly seen especially in vampire folklore, vampires either belongs to clans or they're not. Pureblood power to control others reinforces this idea--Kaname is a pureblood and it would be stupid, really, to see him not doing anything remotely like this. Especially since he is a Kuran. But does he control others? No, he leads them through his name and authority as pureblood. The vampire leader in this case, rules thru strength of blood and power and the others will follow, naturally this is the same with the hunters. The night class joined him because he was a different pureblood.

    He knows no barriers, not even with his Pureblood "equals". He is the Kuran ancestor, the king, and he really behaves this way. He is relatively unstable to be a leader at all, because his subjects are easily disposable if it is for the sake of Yuuki. He doesn't even has an inner conflict because of it. That makes him extremely dangerous.
    scratch how do you think a pureblood king should act? Like Takuma? its unrealistic. Really but I think this boils down to Kaname as a moving character in the story instead of being a stagnant one, like maybe Zero. He is moving towards something we have no clear idea about, and the ways he does it is pretty low and extreme. Pretty much you can say anything bad about him because of his actions and it will be a stable judgment, but it doesn't justify his actions in the overall, since at the end of the day unless he talks and explains about it, we are all in the dark throwing assumptions and swift judgment , and in this case claiming it.

    Don't misunderstand me, I love the character Kuran and the series, but I take it for what it is.
    A suspenseful story where the boundaries between good and evil blur together. We have one constant in there, and this is Yuuki.
    However I hope she will take off her rose colored glasses. She annoys me right now. (and many times before)
    you "take it for what it is" but you have already drawn a swift conclusion based on that and still say you love Kuran? Shocked this must be a joke..
    sure the boundaries of morality actually no longer exists in VK, its just in your head ultimately, and we as readers judge their characters..
    I'm clearly confused though, how you think Yuki is still wearing those "rose colored eyeglasses" when she had obviously shown tons of times that she knows what Kaname is doing (Zero had even emphasized how many kills he had made by narrating it ) and she decided to continue believing, even when Zero points his gun at her. She obviously does not think Kaname's actions are pretty or colored pink, nor does she thinks about Zero to be pretty in pink, and so does her attitude towards Sara. Obviously she is becoming slightly more engaging to the plot now and sticks to her belief.

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    Re: the Morality and Ethics of the Hunters (chapter 75)

    Post by Orleans87 on Sun Nov 13, 2011 7:13 am

    this is pretty off topic. The thread discusses the morality of hunters, not morality of Kaname or the purebloods

    I would have been off topic if I discussed Kuran's Eye color. This topic discusses issues about the moral of the Hunters. To make comparisons between them and Kuran goes hand in hand.
    The OP her/himself made a comparison, so how am I off topic?


    the hunters actions and intentions are clear and we can make judgment based on that. But Kaname's isn't, IMO his actions are only on the surface level.

    I think it is weird not to judge Kuran, just because we don't know his final goal. It's his actions that speak louder than words.
    Don't misunderstand me, the Hunters are not better, but also not worse than him. Also, the end doesn't justify the means at all.

    IMO its probably not even in their job description to butt in vampire business, they are wasting time gossiping about their leader who has a more peaceful approach than them and talking about vampire business.

    Why isn't it the hunters business to interfere if their purpose is to protect humans against vampires? if something is happening on the vampire-side that could in the end endanger the humans, they would be stupid not to poke that issue and try to get to the bottom of it.

    The word coexist means to be able to exist in one place, together, in harmony, without the vampires eating the humans. IMO Kaien's idea was to make a place where this can happen, and where the idea of vampires existence can still be concealed.

    However coexistence also means To live in peace with another or others despite differences.
    It is irresponsible that Kaien would not inform the humans, especially their parents. You know how the girls are throwing them self at the vampires and that especially Aido has not the best control over his urge.


    From this you can say its pretty futile for humans to know vampire existence, as the real problem of coexistence lies in vampire nature

    Coexistence without the other party's consent is wasted time. They don't even interact with each other. So how could that even happen? Without the human girls waiting at the gates for them, the vampires wouldn't even see them. If they don't consciously spend time with each other, to know about the other person and to be able to see past their differences, how could it work?
    The vampires are just in Cross academy, because of Kuran, not because they want to.
    This Coexistence-experiment is faulty and can't function like that.


    Or if they arm themselves to the teeth upon knowing their existence, what the hell was the use of "peaceful" coexistence when humans have weapons to defend themselves

    Vampires are weapons them self and know everything about this experiment, the humans don't even get a chance to know .
    If you can't meet each other on equal grounds to get to know each other then why open such a school?

    the attack on the academy made by Rido would be proof against this. He had every opportunity to take Yuki and escape, but he stayed to defend the humans thru the night class and even allowed Yuki to stay back and defend the school against his wishes.


    To defend the school, the little save-haven for Yuuki, is logical. Yuuki was sealed by Juri to become a human and loose her memory. Without that, this school wouldn't exist in the first place. Kaien became obsessed with Juri and fulfilled her dream with the help of Kaname. This played right into the hands of Kuran to protect her under his watchful eye.

    If he just fled, the respect of his subjects would have been destroyed and he would have looked like a coward in front of all.



    time and again Kaname had defended humans throughout his stay in the academy, discreetly, thru ordering the night class to slay level E's as well as arresting vampires causing mischief to the humans in the school.

    If the humans would have known that, then they could be grateful.


    Its actually impossible to say that he doesn't care, as one of the purpose he agreed to stay in the academy is to practice coexistence as agreed together with Kaien---in short he must watch over humans . In fact, I believe he had done that job more than Kaien ever did. Not just to protect Yuki.

    You said it. He MUST protect humans. With this, he automatically protects the school and with that Yuuki. In the end it's still all for her.


    If he is even remotely racist I don't think he would give him his blood or try to court Yuki as a human openly and in public. Humans inferior than vampires. If he is racist he wouldn't talk to the humans or have anything to do with them. He would crush them under his foot and laugh about it, obviously he did none of these.

    You forget that Yuuki even though sealed, remains a pureblood, and Kuran knows that. To act haughtily polite in the front of the humans is for the sake of Yuuki.

    If he is racist he wouldn't talk to the humans or have anything to do with them. He would crush them under his foot and laugh about it, obviously he did none of these.


    If he behaved that way he would shoot himself in the foot. To play along is essential to keep this charade up and Yuuki save. The vampires follow Kuran's example, without his strict behavior the vampires would act like bulls in a china shop and Yuuki's safety were endangered.
    I have to say that racist was not a good word to choose. I'm sorry, English is not my native language. It's his views on superior and inferior individuals that contradicts his strive for coexistence and equality.Especially with humans who are at the end of the food chain.

    His ways are more clear cut and deliberate. He is a vampire and understanding vampire nature means it includes domination and superior-inferior, this is commonly seen especially in vampire folklore, vampires either belongs to clans or they're not. Pureblood power to control others reinforces this idea--Kaname is a pureblood and it would be stupid, really, to see him not doing anything remotely like this. Especially since he is a Kuran. But does he control others? No, he leads them through his name and authority as pureblood. The vampire leader in this case, rules thru strength of blood and power and the others will follow, naturally this is the same with the hunters. The night class joined him because he was a different pureblood.

    I never said that it is a negative, if you want to be a king or Demi-god. It becomes a problem if you support an equal-coexistence idea between humans and vampires, out of love for a girl and not for the cause itself. How is it possible to treat little humans as equals if it is not present in your own society, with far stronger subjects?


    how do you think a pureblood king should act? Like Takuma? its unrealistic

    Kaname behaves like an absolute king and does what he pleases in order to get what he wants. This is not my idea of a king.
    Well it wouldn't be possible for Takuma to be king in the first place, because he is not a pureblood. Like I said, in this caste-system lies the problem. To combine this with the modern notion of coexistence is crazy.


    you "take it for what it is" but you have already drawn a swift conclusion based on that and still say you love Kuran? this must be a joke..


    I like the character Kuran, not because he is a one-dimensional cutout, who acts lovey-dovey all night long. He is one of my favorite characters because he is an interesting and ambiguous tri-dimensional character with faults.


    I'm clearly confused though, how you think Yuki is still wearing those "rose colored eyeglasses" when she had obviously shown tons of times that she knows what Kaname is doing (Zero had even emphasized how many kills he had made by narrating it ) and she decided to continue believing, even when Zero points his gun at her

    You answered the question yourself. No matter what he does, she blindly believes in him. Ok, to trust the one you love is one thing, but not even to question his actions, that go against your own independent believe, is a whole other story. I would like her to just confront him already, and show that she is not one of his puppets to be ordered around.
    I admit, it was very brave of her to ignore his orders to stay back in the house, while he does his business. However she still does it behind his back. I hope there will be a big confrontation between them.



    I think that Kuran could become open-minded enough to reach for coexistence, but without the pressure and shallow reasons he wouldn't have given his consent to Kaien's faulty and half-baked plans for Cross academy. His mind was always on Yuuki and her safety and not on the human/vampire interaction and coexistence. It was just to early for this idea to be realized. Before that they should have taken care of establishing coexistence and equality between the different vampire levels(What seems hard to realize). Kuran should also overcome his superiority complex.

    That the hunters are against Kaien's lunacy explains itself.
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    Interferer
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    Re: the Morality and Ethics of the Hunters (chapter 75)

    Post by Interferer on Sun Nov 13, 2011 9:16 am

    Guys guys guyyss stick on the topic.. the topic clearly says "the morality and ethics of the hunters" Its not about Kaname, so orleans, stop making excuses because its obvious for anyone reading here that its not about you, its about the hunters. The things I read in this topic, your message does not talk about comparison its if the hunters are bad or not.. and ninety percent of your post talks about that so don't try to change the topic ... thanks. And I enjoy reading your post btw welcome me. Smile
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    juliet
    Vampire Knight
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    Re: the Morality and Ethics of the Hunters (chapter 75)

    Post by juliet on Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:40 am

    okay I see there are certain complaints here; please let's continue this conversation about Kaname here, as i have quoted some parts; http://vampireknight.all-up.com/t429p160-kaname-s-kuran-plan-of-action-is-heading-where






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    Re: the Morality and Ethics of the Hunters (chapter 75)

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