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    Is Yuuki the reincarnation of Kaname's past love?

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    juliet
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    Is Yuuki the reincarnation of Kaname's past love?

    Post by juliet on Sat May 29, 2010 12:34 pm

    Can she be the first ancestor as well? are there any indications to support this theory in the script that you have noticed? There is a high possibility (of course all these questions are theoritical) since Kaname in chapter 61 says that he does not want her to sacrifice herself and finally live that a second time. And if she is how will you feel about it?
    I, would not mind if she was not and he just refers to another past love of his life. What about you?






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    Re: Is Yuuki the reincarnation of Kaname's past love?

    Post by nuitetoile21 on Sat May 29, 2010 2:16 pm

    I belive she is the first woman Kaname has. Kaname says that he don't want to loose her again, so there must be something in the past that they have in common. I really like this theory. It is very romantic..this love form the beggining of the world.. :in love: :in love:
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    Re: Is Yuuki the reincarnation of Kaname's past love?

    Post by cleone on Sat May 29, 2010 4:56 pm

    I dont think Yuki is also from the past. I think what Kaname meant when he said "I dont want to live that a second time" is when he lost the woman he loves. But the woman is different from Yuki. What Kaname also meant when he told Yuki that he dont want to loose her again, is when Yuki lived as a human for 10 years.

    But (Oh well) I dont really care if yuki is from the past or whatsoever. I just wont accept if Yuki will live with Zero. Kaname is so much in pain and when Kaname is in pain, im in pain too. I feel sorry for Kaname. He had lived his first life in despair, I dont want him to live in despair again for the second time around.
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    Re: Is Yuuki the reincarnation of Kaname's past love?

    Post by anna on Sat May 29, 2010 5:28 pm

    cleone wrote:I dont think Yuki is also from the past. I think what Kaname meant when he said "I dont want to live that a second time" is when he lost the woman he loves. But the woman is different from Yuki. What Kaname also meant when he told Yuki that he dont want to loose her again, is when Yuki lived as a human for 10 years.

    But (Oh well) I dont really care if yuki is from the past or whatsoever. I just wont accept if Yuki will live with Zero. Kaname is so much in pain and when Kaname is in pain, im in pain too. I feel sorry for Kaname. He had lived his first life in despair, I dont want him to live in despair again for the second time around.

    ++++1 !!!!! it's just...don't fit for Yuuki to be the ancestor's wife...I mean...we know for sure that Yuuki IS Haruka's and Yuuri's daughter, Kaname himself has told that. So how his wife's soul reincarnated to the baby's body after all those years that she was dead?? it's almost the same question about Kaname, but Kaname wasn't reincarnated, he just awoke from a slumber, I mean he was already alive (well...kind of....)...I think that Kaname's words is mostly about the pain he was into back then....Maybe when he took little Kaname's place, and then Yuuki was born, he found a meaning in his life again, something to keep him alive...Maybe because his memories returned to him little by little, so in the beginning he had forgotten everything about his past, and because little Yuuki was so attached to him, that's why he started falling in love with her
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    Re: Is Yuuki the reincarnation of Kaname's past love?

    Post by juliet on Sat May 29, 2010 5:36 pm

    cleone wrote:I dont think Yuki is also from the past. I think what Kaname meant when he said "I dont want to live that a second time" is when he lost the woman he loves. But the woman is different from Yuki. What Kaname also meant when he told Yuki that he dont want to loose her again, is when Yuki lived as a human for 10 years.

    But (Oh well) I dont really care if yuki is from the past or whatsoever. I just wont accept if Yuki will live with Zero. Kaname is so much in pain and when Kaname is in pain, im in pain too. I feel sorry for Kaname. He had lived his first life in despair, I dont want him to live in despair again for the second time around.

    Clone I will agree with you on that, plus if Hino exposes another life for Kaname and Yuuki, for balancing her script Zero has to go along, and that would add a large circle of explanations to be needed.
    I believe that Kaname loved another woman and she had a very strong resemblance to Yuuki as all Kourans females do have a resemblance to each other. Plus I eagerly wait to see Yuuki's reaction when Kaname reveals that part of his life. There have been no indications in the manga that Yuuki is reincarnated, shouldn't there be such indications until now? we only have the reference to the ancestor that was eaten by the hunters and it looks that this is the way his first wife sacrificed herself, perhaps to offer them the chance to defend themselves against evil vampires, since human race was so vulnerable and as Kaname had said at the edge of extinction.
    I certainly would not mind seeing Kaname with another wife sharing love in his past. He has lived a long life that would be normal.






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    Re: Is Yuuki the reincarnation of Kaname's past love?

    Post by Rose.Petals on Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:10 am

    I think there is some merit to this theory. We saw that Yuuki has the butterfly wings and butterflies symbolize resurrection or the soul.
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    Re: Is Yuuki the reincarnation of Kaname's past love?

    Post by nina on Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:24 pm

    juliet wrote: I certainly would not mind seeing Kaname with another wife sharing love in his past. He has lived a long life that would be normal.

    I agree with that, but let’s see what hints we can find which might concerns Yuuki and Kaname’s past life! XD

    Rose.Retals wrote: I think there is some merit to this theory. We saw that Yuuki has the butterfly wings and butterflies symbolize resurrection or the soul.

    WOW! Thank you RosePetals for the info! I didn’t know that butterflies symbolize resurrection lol.

    So I did a little research myself about butterflies and mirrors!

    Here a few references about the symbolism of the butterfly:

    Spoiler:

    > Butterfly the symbol of transformation, resurrection, transition, celebration, lightness, time and soul! (source: http://www.whats-your-sign.com/butterfly-animal-symbolism.html )

    > A butterfly was seen in Japan as the personification of a person's soul; whether they be living, dying, or already dead.
    > In some old cultures, butterflies also symbolize rebirth into a new life after being inside a cocoon for a period of time.
    (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly#Symbolism )

    > In the Japanese culture butterflies are thought to be representative of young maidens and marital bliss. Many Japanese families use the butterfly in the family crest design.

    > First of all the butterfly symbolizes new life from and old one.

    (source: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_symbolic_meaning_of_a_butterfly)



    References about the symbolism of the mirror:
    Spoiler:

    > In Japanese culture, the mirror represents Truth and is one of the Three Treasures.
    It can represent truth, wisdom, self-knowledge, and self-realization
    ( http://www.lyricalworks.com/home/commentary.htm )

    > A mirror reconfirms the existence of something. In order to bar the dead from staying on earth, people veiled the mirrors in the death chamber. A mirror without any reflection means nothingness, but also a door which leads into a different world. Only if something truly existent "steps into" the surface of the mirror, a picture will be shown, some pseudo-reality.

    > In the art of the middle ages a mirror stands for chastity and transitoriness
    (http://www.museumonline.at/1997/schulen/bg10/english/mirror.htm )

    > An unbroken mirror can be a sign of a happy marrige. A broken mirror would indicate a seperation or destraction of the union. (http://www.scribd.com/doc/6472314/Symbolism-in-Literature )


    I think Hino something is trying to tell us about these symbols!!!!XDDD bounce

    Now I tried to track down the hints in the story which in my opinion reinforce the theory that Yuuki might be a reincarnation or in someway (unknown) is linked to Kaname’s past life.


    A. Yuuki is asking Kaname how is it possible to be hers?” (lol I also have the same question haha! Razz )

    http://www.mangareader.net/104-19604-17/vampire-knight/chapter-52.html

    … and Kaname says … “how you ask …”
    http://www.mangareader.net/104-19604-18/vampire-knight/chapter-52.html

    … and then what answer Hino provides for this question? Or if you like what Yuuki sees through Kaname’s blood?

    HERE the answer!!!!! …
    http://www.mangareader.net/104-19604-23/vampire-knight/chapter-52.html

    http://www.mangareader.net/104-19604-24/vampire-knight/chapter-52.html

    Kaname over a shattered mirror be in mourning!!!
    So I ask …
    1. Why Hino connects Yuuki’s question “how is it possible to be MINE?” with Kaname’s grief?
    2. Why Kaname instead of answering (“how you ask”) his mind goes on that moment of his great grieving and letting Yuuki see that scene?
    3. Kaname, according on what we know thus far, met Yuuki for the first time when she was born, so logically when Yuuki made that question Kaname should instantly think of her baby’s eyes since that was the first time he thought he wanted to protect that warmth … or any other moment with Yuuki … but he didn’t … why?
    4. Also if the hooded-lady was the original source of his devastation why his mind didn’t go on her death/sacrifice?

    Another side note … here is the first time that we have an indirect connection between Yuuki and that mirror … the second time is when Yuuki puts her foot on a mirror (in the middle of nowhere) and then interacts with Kaname << a more direct connection Yuuki-mirror! >>>
    http://www.mangareader.net/104-57201-20/vampire-knight/chapter-64.html
    Based on the symbolism the shattered mirror could represent their marriage and their separation cuz of death???

    5. Why Hino/Kaname connected the two scenes IF Yuuki has no relation with his past or his grieving or his mate from the past?

    6. Is it illogical to assume that since he relates the fact that he IS HERS with his grief that he is hers because he WAS ALSO HERS in the past but he lost her?



    B. When Kaname bit Yuuki to the extend of faint, just before let her to delve into his memories … Yuuki asking him why he seems so desperate … http://www.mangareader.net/104-52342-9/vampire-knight/chapter-61.html

    … Yuuki lays his despair on the fact that he lost her for ten years but Kaname answers that is because he is dreadfully afraid that she might throw her self into a lost cause …
    http://www.mangareader.net/104-52342-10/vampire-knight/chapter-61.html

    Now many fans believe that he was referring to ancestor’s sacrifice. My opinion is that he wasn’t.
    Firstly Kaname probably didn’t have such a close romantic relationship with the hooded-ancestor (I won’t analyze it further here, but as I said above his great grief which led him to slumber, probably isn’t connecting with the loss of the hooded-ancestor) … and secondly her sacrifice wasn’t a lost cause! Was it? Maybe her sacrifice didn’t bring peace or co-existence between the two races but the creation of the weapons was a turning point in the history … literally it saved the human race from destruction. So how it can be described as a lost cause?

    Back on the plot … Kaname answers, Yuuki’s question, by saying that he doesn’t want to live that for the second time. (???)
    http://www.mangareader.net/104-52342-11/vampire-knight/chapter-61.html

    C. When Kaname was facing his contradictions he went in the mausoleum, viz where his desperation led him as an ancestor …

    The hooded-girl who resembles to Yuuki’s figure and definitely isn’t the ancestor lady, Kaname connecting this image with his contradictions over Yuuki. Hino depicts Yuuki as a free happy girl, in chains and beneath those images is a hooded girl!? >>

    http://www.mangareader.net/104-51058-5/vampire-knight/chapter-60.html

    … and in the next page top panel >>
    http://www.mangareader.net/104-51058-6/vampire-knight/chapter-60.html

    … a blurred figure in the desert. Now I know that in most similar images is depicted Kaname in his ancestral times but we have a similar pic also with Yuuki who standing in a desert landscape …
    Spoiler:




    The weird thing here with the above two panels is that on the official volume, Hino “tried” to cover/foggy more the image of the hooded-girl (is depicted like a negative of a photo film) and the lonely figure in the desert was replaced with a hooded woman figure on a horse so probably it wasn’t Kaname’s lonely figure in the particular panel from the first place, but a woman’s figure!?

    D. The long Yuuki’s hair.
    I think there is a meaning/symbolism behind Yuuki’s long hair, cuz when she awoke in her true nature her hair instantly grew. The only difference on her after her transformation was the length of the hair. I mean it can’t be a random choice from Hino. Also Kaname has a specific preference on that.
    All in all my point is that Yuuki with the long hair represents a) her vampirish nature and b) her figure from her past life (<< IMO there is laid also Kaname’s wish to keep Yuuki her long hair, the heels and the dresses. This image is her true image from the past.)

    When Yuuki sees Kaname’s past life at first her hair is short …
    http://www.mangareader.net/104-54910-18/vampire-knight/chapter-62.html
    http://www.mangareader.net/104-54910-23/vampire-knight/chapter-62.html

    … but after this scene … “ Yuuki I already know what decision you’re about to make …” (<< could be a hint that he knew her from the past and that’s why he knew what path she will choose? )
    http://www.mangareader.net/104-56087-13/vampire-knight/chapter-63.html

    … Yuuki awakes into Kaname’s past with long hair …

    http://www.mangareader.net/104-56087-14/vampire-knight/chapter-63.html

    … why Hino chose to change Yuuki’s appearance? Again a random choice???


    E. When Yuuki has her inner battle (vampire vs human) the little vampire inside her who struggles to come on the “surface” is holding a book in his hands …
    http://www.mangareader.net/104-2179-14/vampire-knight/chapter-51.html

    … what is that book and what represents? Also in the anime (second season Guilty opening theme) Yuuki is also holding a book in her hands? So is it another random choice/depiction???
    My feeling is that, this book is like a “diary” where is written Yuuki’s past life in metaphoric way … that’s why the little vampire is holding that book, as a symbolic way to tell that is holding many things/secrets that Yuuki doesn’t know yet. (Or ... Kaname is holding that diary into his cabinet which had locked with the key he gave to Yuuki????)


    In conclusion some of the above points it might be irrelevant or totally misinterpretations lol. Is just a theory! But if we look the whole picture I think there is something behind all these … (???)





    "... I want to fall down with you to the very farthest depths ... taint me too Kaname"



    Spoiler:

    *wants to sneak under these bed sheets*
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    Re: Is Yuuki the reincarnation of Kaname's past love?

    Post by Bloodredhead on Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:51 pm

    Rose.Petals wrote:I think there is some merit to this theory. We saw that Yuuki has the butterfly wings and butterflies symbolize resurrection or the soul.
    wow! i didnt know that. that could help with the theory that she is a recarnation.
    @nina. at first i just thought that yuuki was just similar to the hooded woman and that kaname could she the similaritiies between them after reading what you wrote i'm starting to wonder now whether she may be. it would be interesting if she was.
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    Re: Is Yuuki the reincarnation of Kaname's past love?

    Post by sweetsolace on Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:07 pm

    wow thats a long analysis nina cheers yes this was discussed before... however this butterfly symbolism seems new.

    Wings
    not to forget that Yuki had that weird spaced out expression as if she had blanked out
    http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/68/17
    immediately after that she had unknowingly injured Kaien with her wings

    the same thing happened to her when her memories were coming back, she was doing things she was not aware of. Spacing out + emergence of her wings + wings as symbolism of rebirth = ? perhaps they're all connected?

    Desert
    as nina pointed out the desert scenes are present in VK manga and anime, in the manga it only showed a figure standing on the desert at night, in the anime Yuki is the one standing on the desert at night as shown in the pic, and there's a white clothing with a sword through it.
    as previously discussed, the Desert was also the place where the War happened years ago between ancestors and other vampires. it was a significant battlefield in vk history.
    my theory is that kaname lost his loved one on the battlefield and yuki, as the rebirth of his wife, returned back in time.. bla bla.. lol it can be anything

    Mirror
    also as previously discussed before somewhere in this forum, the mirror reference was also used before in Hino's previous works as a time travel device.
    now as nina posted there that it has meaning as a door which leads into a different world.
    its interesting about what the broken mirror also symbolizes as an unhappy marriage, see there was a picture of yuki and kaname appearing to be newlyweds and there was a mirror with a broken top as they were looking into it. but they were also biting each other that time, and one of the meanings of a mirror is truth so perhaps that shows their true feelings ..

    Agree with you nina, I also think that Yuki in some way is related to Kaname's past wife, OR she is the past wife, because the reason he loves her so much seems like it stems not only from his past experience but also from something far more deeper... zekis often argue they dont see the "origin" of YUME love, its probably because it is a mystery thats yet to be revealed..its just my gut feel, but yuki's also having this unexplained lapses that seem vague, perhaps she has an unexplained side of her. Remember there's also the hooded "Yuki" shown in the flashbacks who had exactly her hair. And she was somewhere along kaname's thoughts on "contradictions"
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    Re: Is Yuuki the reincarnation of Kaname's past love?

    Post by sweetsolace on Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:33 pm

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    Re: Is Yuuki the reincarnation of Kaname's past love?

    Post by Rose.Petals on Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:37 pm

    Thanks for the breakdown Nina and Sweetsolace.

    Hino kept the HW's face hidden at first also. It was as if she was building suspense towards revealing her appearance was so close to Yuuki's. I think Kaname is trying to stop history from repeating itself by maybe sacrificing himself. I hope Yuuki remembers the key to the cabinet soon!
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    Re: Is Yuuki the reincarnation of Kaname's past love?

    Post by juliet on Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:18 pm

    Thank you about that amazing analysis Nina, sLo_BigBearHug it was awesome.

    I do agree that Hino now has provided too many hints that can allow her to develop the script towards that direction. And even though at the past I thought it was a bit difficult for that to happen, Hino especially with the mirror is pointing in strange directions. See, the presence of the mirror at the dessert and the Kuran mansion can not be explained through logical arguements...

    Butterfly (Rose thank you for the tip here) a symbol I had not considered;
    A quick-list of Butterfly animal symbolism:

    Resurrection
    Transition
    Celebration
    Lightness
    Time
    Soul
    Interestingly, in many cultures the butterfly is associated with the soul – further linking our animal symbolism of faith with the butterfly.

    In Greek myth, Psyche (which literally translates to mean “soul”) is represented in the form of a butterfly. Befittingly, Psyche is forever linked with love as she and Eros (the Greek god of love, also known in Roman myth as Cupid) shared an endlessly passionate bond together – both hopelessly in love with the other.

    Greece doesn’t corner the market on associating the butterfly with the soul. Here are a few other ancient cultures that associated this elegant creature with the soul:

    Asian (central)
    Mexican – Aztec
    New Zealand
    Zaire
    Even Christianity considers the butterfly a soulful symbol. To wit, the butterfly is depicted on ancient Christian tombs, as Christ has been illustrated holding a butterfly in Christian art.

    What about in japan?
    In Japan, the Butterfly, ready to fly after its long spell in the cocoon and spreading its brand new wings, is a popular symbol for young girls. It represents emerging beauty and grace, with the added notice to regard change as joyful, not traumatic.

    In Japanese Anime and popular culture the Butterfly is used to indicate Memories fleeting flitting memories, Usually seen on screen as an indicator of lost or forgotten memories.


    So why does Hino uses all that symbols?

    Going back in theory....(LOL my favorite part)

    Points that support the theory...

    1. Yuuki does not recognize that woman as her ancestor, the way she recognizes Kaname. So to her that woman created the hunters, but not her bloodline. In the manga so far there is not a single line and page that can support the theory that the Kurans descedants were born from that lady. So there is a lot of space to theories.

    2. Kaname avoids sharing that detail (so to say that up to the point that his past is revealed Yuuki has no indication for her family tree other than Kaname is the ancestor). If it is something hidden there why is it not demonstrated but kept behind leading us into questioning it?

    More than this the mirror as we say indicates the truth/soul but a broken mirror also the loss/death of a dear person. So when kaname grieves over that mirror we know that this about the loss of a dear person as we can also guess by his sayings; "Everything will wear out and fall out of my hands...by the time I had noticed i was alone"

    Also as stated in the volumes Yuuki's initial question is "Why would you want me?" and kaname's answer "Why", you ask.

    SO no I do not think that so many clues can be all over nothing, the mirror is related to Yuuki and not to the hooded woman, as we have already seen Yuuki's -Kaname's image in the reflection of the mirror- a reflection of the present since Yuuki had her bracelet on.

    And all these are very fishy and strange for just the hooded woman.











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    Re: Is Yuuki the reincarnation of Kaname's past love?

    Post by nina on Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:09 pm

    Ah! Thank you gals for your good words! sLo_BigBearHug


    blloredhead wrote: @nina. at first i just thought that yuuki was just similar to the hooded woman and that kaname could she the similaritiies between them after reading what you wrote i'm starting to wonder now whether she may be. it would be interesting if she was.


    To tell you the truth the only similarity that I’ve seen between Yuuki and the hooded-ancestor is their love for humans and their fighting spirit. And that’s why I believe that Kaname had used her story to make a point to Yuuki.

    After all Yuuki’s current image has nothing in common with the hooded-lady, not to mention that Hino (through Kaname) clearly stated that … “quit saying such empty things … no one can be a replacement for another person”! I don’t think it was an accidental phrase … and if we relate Yuuki’s “curiosity” >> “ are you going to substitute her for someone else?” with her sign of jealousy when she thought that the hooded-ancestor gave to Kaname his name … then we may have another clue that Kaname’s mate from the past is Yuuki.

    sweetsolace wrote: the Desert was also the place where the War happened years ago between ancestors and other vampires. it was a significant battlefield in vk history.
    my theory is that kaname lost his loved one on the battlefield and yuki, as the rebirth of his wife, returned back in time.. bla bla.. lol it can be anything

    Exactly sweet!! The desert is the landscape where the battles took place … the current Yuuki has nothing to do with that era. And I forgot to mention on my previous post that we have another depiction … again in the opening of anime Yuuki is shown with her butterflies’ wings lying down on the sand wrapped in a spider’s web! We already saw the butterfly and the web is Sara’s symbol, hence and I don’t think that the sand/desert is disrelated!

    So what is Yuuki’s relation with the sand and the desert since supposedly all of that happened in the distant past???

    Rose.Petals wrote: I think Kaname is trying to stop history from repeating itself by maybe sacrificing himself. I hope Yuuki remembers the key to the cabinet soon!


    That’s a possibility … Kaname is trying to create an environment where Yuuki’s actions won’t have the same outcome, viz her death/sacrifice. If he is heading on his own sacrifice then a turning point could be Yuuki’s realization of her past (maybe by using that infamous key!) … and then, at the crucial moment will save him! That would be EPIC!

    juliet wrote:
    1. Yuuki does not recognize that woman as her ancestor, the way she recognizes Kaname. So to her that woman created the hunters, but not her bloodline. In the manga so far there is not a single line and page that can support the theory that the Kurans descedants were born from that lady. So there is a lot of space to theories.

    2. Kaname avoids sharing that detail (so to say that up to the point that his past is revealed Yuuki has no indication for her family tree other than Kaname is the ancestor). If it is something hidden there why is it not demonstrated but kept behind leading us into questioning it?

    And all these are very fishy and strange for just the hooded woman.


    OR anybody female figure I shall say. VK is a shoujo … maybe not as the common shoujo(s) but still in the core has ONE female protagonist. It’s not “logical” all this build up to concern another woman.
    Kaname had a life before Yuuki’s birth … the Kuran clan should have a female ancestor. So what’s more natural for Kaname to have a mate in the past that lost … end of story.
    What I’m trying to say here and totally agree with Juliet, is that if there is nothing behind Kaname’s first wife then why so much mystery? What difference does it makes if the woman in question was the hooded-lady or anyone else, since either way Kaname was alone when she decide to go into slumber!?





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    Re: Is Yuuki the reincarnation of Kaname's past love?

    Post by sweetsolace on Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:38 pm

    nina wrote:
    After all Yuuki’s current image has nothing in common with the hooded-lady, not to mention that Hino (through Kaname) clearly stated that … “quit saying such empty things … no one can be a replacement for another person”! I don’t think it was an accidental phrase … and if we relate Yuuki’s “curiosity” >> “ are you going to substitute her for someone else?” with her sign of jealousy when she thought that the hooded-ancestor gave to Kaname his name … then we may have another clue that Kaname’s mate from the past is Yuuki.


    Kaname had a life before Yuuki’s birth … the Kuran clan
    should have a female ancestor. So what’s more natural for Kaname to have
    a mate in the past that lost … end of story.
    What I’m trying to say here and totally agree with Juliet, is that if
    there is nothing behind Kaname’s first wife then why so much mystery?
    What difference does it makes if the woman in question was the
    hooded-lady or anyone else, since either way Kaname was alone when she
    decide to go into slumber!?

    juliet wrote:
    1. Yuuki does not recognize that woman as her ancestor, the way she recognizes Kaname. So to her that woman created the hunters, but not her bloodline. In the manga so far there is not a single line and page that can support the theory that the Kurans descedants were born from that lady. So there is a lot of space to theories.

    2. Kaname avoids sharing that detail (so to say that up to the point that his past is revealed Yuuki has no indication for her family tree other than Kaname is the ancestor). If it is something hidden there why is it not demonstrated but kept behind leading us into questioning it?

    And all these are very fishy and strange for just the hooded woman.

    yes.. i definitely agree there. odd that some people think the hooded woman was a BIG element in VK or she was kaname's beloved and she will be resurrected someday... the persistence on this belief is rather perplexing given that the indications for their alleged "romance" was not even that hardcore. rofl anyway.. I like to believe that the hooded woman's introduction in the story served as distraction from something else... and that is the Yuki look alike with the hood. The author gives out Kaname's long awaited paast and reveals the woman, to give the impression that Kaname had revealed everything there is to his past and all, but noo there's still ambiguity and its leaving trail of hints on the way. I believe the unnamed woman's participation in Kaname's past was an allusion and only a part of his past. there's ONE more significant other... the one who affected him the most. *epic music playing Katayaku no tori*

    Exactly sweet!! The desert is the landscape where the battles took place … the current Yuuki has nothing to do with that era. And I forgot to mention on my previous post that we have another depiction … again in the opening of anime Yuuki is shown with her butterflies’ wings lying down on the sand wrapped in a spider’s web! We already saw the butterfly and the web is Sara’s symbol, hence and I don’t think that the sand/desert is disrelated!

    So what is Yuuki’s relation with the sand and the desert since supposedly all of that happened in the distant past???


    oh there's more you know i get this feeling that the Anime hints about what will happen in VK in the future, although it also has the reputation of changing the original contents to their favor.. :/ but I think the butterfly with webs can be a hard clue.. so Sara as the spider trapping butterfly yuki... an indication to their future fight??? or what happened in the past?
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    Re: Is Yuuki the reincarnation of Kaname's past love?

    Post by nina on Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:18 pm

    caela wrote:
    Akaruisama
    The idea of reincarnation of female ancestor is very romantic. In that case she would be the only one he has anytime loved.
    And Zero would loose any chance to be with her

    I don't know if Yuuki would agree that being a reincarnation is romantic. Her visions during her flashback period just before returning to being a vampire were disturbing. I'm only picking one scene, the bathtub scene:

    http://www.mangareader.net/104-2153-11/vampire-knight/chapter-27.html

    This is alot of blood. I don't think Yuuki experienced such a bloody scene while living in the Kuran mansion as a child. Even the memory of Yuuki's mother dying in front of her cannot justify the amount of blood Yuuki saw. A tub of blood is more than the blood of one person. I think this is Yuuki's memory of being murdered in her past life and I don't think Yuuki was the only victim.

    If Yuuki and Kaname were in love in a past life, I also see some hints that the relationship did not end well (i.e. Zero has a chance at being with Yuuki endgame.) The chapter 35 phrase from Kaname, "Yuuki, please, only you," might sound romantic, but it also shows Kaname does not want to interact with a Yuuki with all her past life memories. I won't even try to guess why that would be the case, but I don't take that situation as a positive sign for Kaname's past relationship with Yuuki. (I would go into other points, but I'm lazy, sorry. If someone wants to debate, I'll put more effort into this point)

    @ caela I brought your post here cuz I think my respond it fits in this thread better. I hope you don’t mind lol. Very Happy

    Well IMO IF Yuuki is a reincarnation that would be extremely romantic and that would solve the LT immediately. But this is up to personal views/preferences so I do not intend to argue about it. XD

    As for the rest of your post caela I agree. Yuuki’s bloody memories/hallucinations when her spell started to break it might hide something more than her experience when Rido attacked at her home.
    Although she lost both of her parents into a bloodbath so it could be only that, however there are some other signs as well.

    Sweetsolace have pointed out (I think in this thread) Yuuki’s aggressive attitude. She tried to choke Zero and before that she turned her Artemis to Kaname and she was pretty shocked from her actions. Again … it was only the fear that she experienced as a child or something more?

    I’ve observed something else. When Yuuki delved into Kaname’s memory at some point before she sinks into the far past, saw pieces from her life … incidents where Kaname wasn’t there. So I guess it was from her blood that Kaname drank. >>>

    1. “May I drink your blood?” (is the level-e vampire that attacked her at the snow, so it is her memory, something that she also recognized) >>“This is my memory?”
    http://www.mangareader.net/104-54910-19/vampire-knight/chapter-62.html http://www.mangareader.net/104-54910-20/vampire-knight/chapter-62.html

    2. “Blood … give us your blood … Aaahhh … Kyah” http://www.mangareader.net/104-54910-21/vampire-knight/chapter-62.html

    After this panel Yuuki fell into Kaname’s memories from the beginning >> http://www.mangareader.net/104-54910-22/vampire-knight/chapter-62.html

    So I wonder from where Yuuki has such memory? When was she attacked by a crowd of vampires/humans asking for her blood? And I think if this “scene” happened perhaps isn’t Kaname’s because AFTER that she delved into his far-far past when he had a similar experience when the villagers claimed his own blood. So, could be her own faded memory from her past life but she couldn’t decode cuz is “sealed”?

    And to stretch it further haha … IF Yuuki is a reincarnation and she lost her life tragically then all the above reactions could be from that incident which also could be related with Kaname’s grief over the shattered mirror >> http://www.mangareader.net/104-19604-23/vampire-knight/chapter-52.html http://www.mangareader.net/104-19604-24/vampire-knight/chapter-52.html
    IF the above speculation has any ground then that could be an explanation for a lot that Kaname had said throughout the story.

    - “Yuuki was born to become my wife … IF she still wishes to do so" http://www.mangareader.net/104-2162-8/vampire-knight/chapter-36.html

    - Yuuki: “My strong and beautiful Kaname. Why would you want me?
    Kaname: "Why"... you ask.” (this portion if from the official volume)

    >> Why … you ask, and his mind goes to this >>>
    http://www.mangareader.net/104-19604-23/vampire-knight/chapter-52.html

    - Rido: "What you were waiting for as you slept in here…will it never come back to you?" (this is from the official volume)
    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/vampire_knight/v12/c060/2.html

    The conversation Kaname had with Rido revolves around Yuuki (beloved little bird) so what Kaname was waiting for when he slept I think it was Yuuki and if so then why Rido says “will it never come back to you?" … didn’t she come back?>>>
    Rido harassing Kaname … like a good mirror projecting Kaname’s inner fears, weaknesses and insecurities about how Yuuki will see him when he’ll disclose his past >>
    Rido: “How long are you going to continue being the "kind big brother"? Why are you hesitating? Have you forgotten your true self?
    Kaname: No, I have not. You should have left asleep inside this coffin...”

    His true self is that he is the ancestor and not Yuuki’s brother … so why so much fear? Well Kaname’s character is like that … he takes the burden of the entire world onto his shoulders but can all these feelings originated from their current life?

    What I’m trying to say here is that IF Yuuki is a reincarnation and Kaname’s wife who lost her life in a bloody incident then everything tie up.

    Yuuki’s bloody memories and aggressiveness it could be originated from the way she lost OR sacrificed her life << one explanation of why he is terrified now about her safety and the path that she’ll follow …
    Also IF Kaname considers himself somehow responsible for that then also it could be the explanation about his:

    - fears >> “Yuuki it is actually because I’m so dreadfully afraid that one day you might throw yourself into a lost cause and sacrifice your life in the attempt … I don’t want to live that FOR SECOND TIME.”
    http://www.mangareader.net/104-52342-11/vampire-knight/chapter-61.html

    - insecurities about how she sees him or if she’ll leave him AGAIN …

    - guilt >> “You know Yuuki I receive with complete delight absolutely anything that is given to me by you … even if it was a cruel demand, simply pain or even the blade to take my life …”
    http://www.mangareader.net/104-19604-14/vampire-knight/chapter-52.html

    - despair that IF she recovers her memory she might not want him anymore >>
    Yuuki’s rejection = death for him …

    - secrecy … Yuuki’s travel into his memory stopped when he saw her as “a vision from the future” …
    http://www.mangareader.net/104-57201-22/vampire-knight/chapter-64.html http://www.mangareader.net/104-57201-26/vampire-knight/chapter-64.html

    What IF from that point and afterwards began their common life; a past life that it ends with Yuuki’s death, Kaname’s slumber>> http://www.mangareader.net/104-57201-27/vampire-knight/chapter-64.html

    >> and Yuuki shouldn’t discover just yet, hence the secrecy?

    Well it’s just my interpretation and a way to be connected some hints … I could be wrong. geek





    "... I want to fall down with you to the very farthest depths ... taint me too Kaname"



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    Re: Is Yuuki the reincarnation of Kaname's past love?

    Post by aya-chan on Tue Oct 11, 2011 11:01 pm

    @Nina
    I agree with you. It's possible for yuuki to be kaname wife reincarnation. in another thread, solace showed some panels with hooded woman and one with yuuki and with another woman. but that woman wasn't hooded woman nor yuuki.
    And to be honest, the kuran clan had to start from somewhere.

    Hino like to be ambigous in her story. she throws some hints and let them be to be explain much much later. When yuuki was in his memories, it was strange for yuuki to be seen by kaname, but it was impossible untill then.

    Spoiler:
    By the way, if yuuki's a reincarnation, this remind me by juliet fanfiction. Juliet, did Hino revealed to you some inside info? Very Happy
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    Re: Is Yuuki the reincarnation of Kaname's past love?

    Post by juliet on Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:22 am

    If you analyze the scene when Yuuki meets the Kuran ancestor, you can reach to looney(?) conclusions...

    Example;

    First time that Kaname sees Yuuki...

    (we are traveling in Kaname's memories through his blood)...

    http://www.mangareader.net/104-57201-21/vampire-knight/chapter-64.html

    Yuuki; Can you see me?
    Kaname: I can...

    So can there be a chance that Yuuki is really standing there but since in ALL Kaname's memories she was seeing herself as Kaname (alas she was experienced what he experienced) can it be now that Yuuki experiences herself now?

    Because apparently two bloods are available now inside her; Kaname's and herself and at this moment apparently Yuuki through Kaname's memories identifies with another person...who else but herself? (only that Hino by using Yuuki all the way to travel us in Kaname's memories so cleverly conveys the truth in this way so that she hints to the reincarnation theory rather than revealing it?)

    And then the mirror in the middle of nowhere that she cracks...if the mirror symbolizes the truth (what you see is what you get> Yuuki cracks the truth...so a part, a tiny part of these alter ego starts cracking...
    Or if you take it in a more dramatic way then Yuuki's cracking the mirror is not a good thing as her trip to her own loss in a way ( a broken mirror symbolizes the loss/death of a dear person. ) starts.

    So taking this approach her own trip to a journey full of drama and love tragedy in the past begun and ended as the mirror collapsed in shards in Kaname's hands (at the page where Yuuki again drinks from kaname outside of the Kuran slumber room and Kaname answers to her "Why you..".

    What I’m trying to say here is that IF Yuuki is a reincarnation and Kaname’s wife who lost her life in a bloody incident then everything tie up.

    there are many hints that can actually pinpoint to that direction...and yes it supplies answers mainly to Kaname's despair about the present actions and the ways he uses...

    And also how he "recognized the warmth of her eyes", why he felt like protecting it, and why even Yuuki's existence should be protected this time around, earning her a second chance to find her path and finally fulfill it without risking herself, while he goes to eliminate all the dangers and threats in ways that she would not approve and therefore he can not also explain to her the necessity of these actions and why she should not stop him this time.

    Haha, VK rewritten...but it would certainly justify his weakness to her and also her value> plus if she could retrieve this info then she would boost up her character, so a quicker development and awakening for Yuuki that now lacks in action and determination.

    Who knows? perhaps this theory stands chances, Hino would not have used so many hints and go into unrolling the past (as we see here we are dealing with memories, ancestors, original plans) if her main character was totally irrelevant to all of this action?

    As we see Yuuki finds her way into everything from Cross Academy to Kaname's memories and from the human to the vampire society...if Hino goes into developing the past, I think we shall meet her again...

    Spoiler:
    By the way, if yuuki's a reincarnation, this remind me by juliet fanfiction. Juliet, did Hino revealed to you some inside info?
    Oh I just so wished she had...where is the "pray" symbol you never know...LOL






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    Re: Is Yuuki the reincarnation of Kaname's past love?

    Post by caela on Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:23 am

    Nina
    What I’m trying to say here is that IF Yuuki is a reincarnation and Kaname’s wife who lost her life in a bloody incident then everything tie up.

    Yuuki’s bloody memories and aggressiveness it could be originated from the way she lost OR sacrificed her life << one explanation of why he is terrified now about her safety and the path that she’ll follow …
    Also IF Kaname considers himself somehow responsible for that then also it could be the explanation about his:

    - fears >> “Yuuki it is actually because I’m so dreadfully afraid that one day you might throw yourself into a lost cause and sacrifice your life in the attempt … I don’t want to live that FOR SECOND TIME.”

    I was looking forward to the Kuran mansion arc, even though there wasn't much Zero, because I was hoping that Yuuki could develop as a vampire. (Yuuki got kind of boring this arc...she had more personality before)

    When we got to the chapters where Kaname was explaining his ambiguous former love who sacrificed her life and abandoned Kaname, then things started making sense: Kaname did not want Yuuki to develop or mature; he wanted her to stay the same warm girl because if Yuuki developed into the strong-willed woman (the personality of Yuuki's who was choking Zero)that Kaname married in the past, Yuuki might get herself killed and history might repeat itself.

    Right now though, I see Yuuki as weak: Yuuki is used to drinking blood from others, not taking tablets. Also, she does not have the leadership abilities she had in her human past (she spent all of the first arc ordering Zero around; her original personality is bossy.) That scene where Kaname was giving Yuuki a manicure gave me a massive case of rolling my eyes.

    Personally, I think that plan of Kaname's will backfire on Kaname in the future. Yuuki is probably best able to protect herself if she is more assertive...but that's an opinion. He did finally give her Artemis and Yuuki did start becoming more assertive, so I am optimistically looking forward to Yuuki's development.

    *********

    Juliet
    First time that Kaname sees Yuuki...

    (we are traveling in Kaname's memories through his blood)...

    http://www.mangareader.net/104-57201-21/vampire-knight/chapter-64.html

    Yuuki; Can you see me?
    Kaname: I can...

    I agree, this scene seems like Yuuki is accessing her own memory of speaking to Kaname from her past life. I find this scene interesting because Kaname calls her a "young vampire miss." For Kaname to recognize Yuuki as a vampire requires the sense of smell, so someone would have to be physically present for Kaname to sense as a vampire, assuming she is not showing any fangs. So, its less likely that Kaname seeing yuuki in that scene is just a vision. Maybe past Yuuki was stalking Kaname here? Perhaps what happened to the hooded woman is public knowledge?

    If all the ancestors were the result of some science experiment (all ancestors had human parents) and were all born around the same time, then Yuuki's past self might not have been an ancestor vampire because it looks like Kaname is assuming that the past-reincarnation Yuuki is younger than him. Yuuki might have had ancestor parents we have not identified yet.

    (Past Yuuki can't be ancestor Kaname's sister, I mean surely Kaname would be able to recognize his sister, even if it is only a vision)

    ********

    Personally, I think that Kaname refused to show Yuuki any memories of his vampire king days because in Yuuki's previous life, Yuuki probably looks exactly the same.






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    Re: Is Yuuki the reincarnation of Kaname's past love?

    Post by VampireCythia on Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:43 pm

    caela wrote:Nina
    What I’m trying to say here is that IF Yuuki is a reincarnation and Kaname’s wife who lost her life in a bloody incident then everything tie up.

    Yuuki’s bloody memories and aggressiveness it could be originated from the way she lost OR sacrificed her life << one explanation of why he is terrified now about her safety and the path that she’ll follow …
    Also IF Kaname considers himself somehow responsible for that then also it could be the explanation about his:

    - fears >> “Yuuki it is actually because I’m so dreadfully afraid that one day you might throw yourself into a lost cause and sacrifice your life in the attempt … I don’t want to live that FOR SECOND TIME.”

    I was looking forward to the Kuran mansion arc, even though there wasn't much Zero, because I was hoping that Yuuki could develop as a vampire. (Yuuki got kind of boring this arc...she had more personality before)

    When we got to the chapters where Kaname was explaining his ambiguous former love who sacrificed her life and abandoned Kaname, then things started making sense: Kaname did not want Yuuki to develop or mature; he wanted her to stay the same warm girl because if Yuuki developed into the strong-willed woman (the personality of Yuuki's who was choking Zero)that Kaname married in the past, Yuuki might get herself killed and history might repeat itself.

    Right now though, I see Yuuki as weak: Yuuki is used to drinking blood from others, not taking tablets. Also, she does not have the leadership abilities she had in her human past (she spent all of the first arc ordering Zero around; her original personality is bossy.) That scene where Kaname was giving Yuuki a manicure gave me a massive case of rolling my eyes.

    Personally, I think that plan of Kaname's will backfire on Kaname in the future. Yuuki is probably best able to protect herself if she is more assertive...but that's an opinion. He did finally give her Artemis and Yuuki did start becoming more assertive, so I am optimistically looking forward to Yuuki's development.

    *********

    Juliet
    First time that Kaname sees Yuuki...

    (we are traveling in Kaname's memories through his blood)...

    http://www.mangareader.net/104-57201-21/vampire-knight/chapter-64.html

    Yuuki; Can you see me?
    Kaname: I can...

    I agree, this scene seems like Yuuki is accessing her own memory of speaking to Kaname from her past life. I find this scene interesting because Kaname calls her a "young vampire miss." For Kaname to recognize Yuuki as a vampire requires the sense of smell, so someone would have to be physically present for Kaname to sense as a vampire, assuming she is not showing any fangs. So, its less likely that Kaname seeing yuuki in that scene is just a vision. Maybe past Yuuki was stalking Kaname here? Perhaps what happened to the hooded woman is public knowledge?

    If all the ancestors were the result of some science experiment (all ancestors had human parents) and were all born around the same time, then Yuuki's past self might not have been an ancestor vampire because it looks like Kaname is assuming that the past-reincarnation Yuuki is younger than him. Yuuki might have had ancestor parents we have not identified yet.

    (Past Yuuki can't be ancestor Kaname's sister, I mean surely Kaname would be able to recognize his sister, even if it is only a vision)

    ********

    Personally, I think that Kaname refused to show Yuuki any memories of his vampire king days because in Yuuki's previous life, Yuuki probably looks exactly the same.








    I second that Caela cheers
    but there´s something who have been nagging me: Has Zero somthing to do with it?
    I know it´s a crazy thought but i think he has something to do with it.
    It explain´s why Kaname have always been hostile towards Zero. Why he has seen Zero as a real enemy towards his relationship with Yuuki. Why Yuuki and Zero had a close attachment from the start.I cannot remember it just noe buy i think there have been more clues about this. But maybe the love triangle have been going on for ten thoursand years. Okay even after a thoursand years Yuuki you still don´t know which guy to pick? rofl But maybe Kaname mean Zero was a part of her death and want to keep him away from her confused
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    Re: Is Yuuki the reincarnation of Kaname's past love?

    Post by caela on Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:13 am

    Vampire Cynthia
    there´s something who have been nagging me: Has Zero somthing to do with it?
    I know it´s a crazy thought but i think he has something to do with it.
    It explain´s why Kaname have always been hostile towards Zero. Why he has seen Zero as a real enemy towards his relationship with Yuuki. Why Yuuki and Zero had a close attachment from the start.I cannot remember it just noe buy i think there have been more clues about this. But maybe the love triangle have been going on for ten thoursand years. Okay even after a thoursand years Yuuki you still don´t know which guy to pick? But maybe Kaname mean Zero was a part of her death and want to keep him away from her

    Thanks Vampire Cynthia Smile

    Hmm....I see no evidence that Zero was also in the picture back then. All we have is mostly Kaname's memories, so if Zero did exist then, Kaname might have edited Zero out...(clearly in imagination world: Zero might be a reincarnation of the last hunter to have a twin) But my preference is that Zero was not part of Yuuki's past life (maybe lives) because that means he watched Yuuki marry Kaname in the past. That would be a bummer for me.

    Kaname's hostility towards Zero is less in recent chapters, most likely because of their quick and short interactions, but also I think Kaname is less hostile towards Zero at these more recent times because Kaname was with Yuuki; nothing for Kaname to be jealous over unlike before. We'll see what happens to the love triangle in the coming chapters.
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    Re: Is Yuuki the reincarnation of Kaname's past love?

    Post by theangelgirl1992 on Sat Nov 05, 2011 11:07 pm

    Another hint people:

    http://www.mangareader.net/104-57201-28/vampire-knight/chapter-64.html

    Kaname's words are: "In my childish mind I felt that I had seen those EYES somewhere BEFORE". And the eyes ARE the WINDOWS OF THE SOUL. Just sayin cheers
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    Re: Is Yuuki the reincarnation of Kaname's past love?

    Post by Akaruisama on Sat Nov 05, 2011 11:27 pm

    theangelgirl1992 wrote:Another hint people:

    http://www.mangareader.net/104-57201-28/vampire-knight/chapter-64.html

    Kaname's words are: "In my childish mind I felt that I had seen those EYES somewhere BEFORE". And the eyes ARE the WINDOWS OF THE SOUL. Just sayin cheers

    I think it means that Kaname have already seen those eyes in his past and it was Yuuki from the future who had been seen by Kaname in his clairvoyant dream. Yuuki saw Kaname when he have shown her his memories of the past and that was this moment when she had given the name to the Artemis.
    In my opinion it is beautiful because it was a sign that they are destinied to be together. Kaname has lived for many years but was only her who was able to foretell.



    Last edited by Akaruisama on Sun Nov 06, 2011 11:18 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Is Yuuki the reincarnation of Kaname's past love?

    Post by Vanille-chan on Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:02 am

    Actually, I do not think Yuki is the reincarnation of HW. There's a scene
    that Kaname (in the past) collapsed because he would not drink blood. HW gives
    her blood for him. I imagine Kaname could recognize HW when he had drank Y´s blood.
    The reverse is also true: the connection that HW has with Kaname is very
    strong. So if HW = Yuki, Yuki could have started to think about it.

    I think HW was introduced into the story to illustrate an aspect of Kaname's personality.

    In VK vampires are always portrayed more often than the hunters. And the greatest sacrifices were made by vampires: HW, the Yuki's parents ...

    Akaruisama wrote:

    I think it's means that Kaname have seen those eyes in his past and it was Yuuki from the future who had been seen by Kaname in his clairvoyant dream. Yuuki see Kaname when he have shown her his memories of the past and that was this moment when she had gave the name to the Artemis.
    In my opinion it is beautiful because it was a sign that they are destinied to be together. Kaname has lived for many years but was only her who was able to foretell.

    Exactly. There aren´t between Zero and Yuki that aspect: "predestination." Yuki is
    predestined to Kaname, she was the woman who gave the name to Artemis.
    Kaname in that scene, says that Yuki is a vision of the future he has often. In other words: It is not the first time he sees her.

    In this scene, I began to realize that VK is about K´s story. So, Kaname is the main character - I imagine that this is not common in a shoujo.
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    nina
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    Re: Is Yuuki the reincarnation of Kaname's past love?

    Post by nina on Sun Nov 06, 2011 11:55 am

    Vannile-chan wrote: Actually, I do not think Yuki is the reincarnation of HW. There's a scene
    that Kaname (in the past) collapsed because he would not drink blood. HW gives
    her blood for him. I imagine Kaname could recognize HW when he had drank Y´s blood.
    The reverse is also true: the connection that HW has with Kaname is very
    strong. So if HW = Yuki, Yuki could have started to think about it.

    I agree.
    Mmm... actually in this thread we’ve explored the possibility Yuuki being a reincarnation of her own past self, not a reincarnation of the HW. I mean if Yuuki existed in the past and was Kaname’s wife who somehow died and now came back/reborn as Yuuki.

    There are no signs that Kaname had a family with the HW thus far at least. In fact I think the opposite that there are signs that contradict with this possibility but this is another story so I drop it.





    "... I want to fall down with you to the very farthest depths ... taint me too Kaname"



    Spoiler:

    *wants to sneak under these bed sheets*
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    lililovelilica
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    Re: Is Yuuki the reincarnation of Kaname's past love?

    Post by lililovelilica on Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:20 am

    nina wrote:
    Vannile-chan wrote: Actually, I do not think Yuki is the reincarnation of HW. There's a scene
    that Kaname (in the past) collapsed because he would not drink blood. HW gives
    her blood for him. I imagine Kaname could recognize HW when he had drank Y´s blood.
    The reverse is also true: the connection that HW has with Kaname is very
    strong. So if HW = Yuki, Yuki could have started to think about it.

    I agree.
    Mmm... actually in this thread we’ve explored the possibility Yuuki being a reincarnation of her own past self, not a reincarnation of the HW. I mean if Yuuki existed in the past and was Kaname’s wife who somehow died and now came back/reborn as Yuuki.

    There are no signs that Kaname had a family with the HW thus far at least. In fact I think the opposite that there are signs that contradict with this possibility but this is another story so I drop it.
    She's not the HW because Kaname would discover?hum...interesting your reply...but i think the same,my opinion is that the part of the HW soul is inside the weapons... bounce

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