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    Kaname's message

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    caela
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    Kaname's message

    Post by caela on Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:22 am

    We have gone through most of the details of chapter 76 except whether or not Yuuki interpreted Kaname's message correctly.

    Chapter 75/witlessfool translation

    Kaname: Please tell Yuuki – if you tell her this, maybe she’ll realize – tell her I killed Ouri-san. Next one will be Sara Shirabuki.

    Chapter 76/witlessfool translation

    Zero: There’s a message from Kaname Kuran through the association president...
    Hanadagi and Ouri were all killed by his hands
    The next one will be Sara Shirabuki...

    What was the correct interpretation that was intended by Kaname?

    Why was there additional information in Zero's version?
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    Re: Kaname's message

    Post by renali on Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:30 am

    well,idont know what kaname meant by this message especially
    that he know that it will not affect yuuki confused as for zero
    i think he deilvered it because chairman was busy,thatis all of it Smile
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    Re: Kaname's message

    Post by juliet on Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:33 am

    caela wrote:We have gone through most of the details of chapter 76 except whether or not Yuuki interpreted Kaname's message correctly.

    Chapter 75/witlessfool translation

    Kaname: Please tell Yuuki – if you tell her this, maybe she’ll realize – tell her I killed Ouri-san. Next one will be Sara Shirabuki.

    Chapter 76/witlessfool translation

    Zero: There’s a message from Kaname Kuran through the association president...
    Hanadagi and Ouri were all killed by his hands
    The next one will be Sara Shirabuki...

    What was the correct interpretation that was intended by Kaname?

    Why was there additional information in Zero's version?

    Really? I did not notice there? I do not know where the extra Hanadagi information came from...meaning yes its an event already given there because they know since Cross, Yuuki and Aidou came in, its the most obvious but it was not the exact message of Kaname, anyway that's the overall estimation of the situation. Haha Zero forgot also Hio? yes who knows...anyway...

    I think that Kaname wants to actually find a way to make Yuuki stay at the academy as Yuuki will be probably thinking that she needs to stay and guarantee Sara's safety with her protection...that's the one and more obvious guess - along with burdening himself with more accusations there to keep her away from his plans whatever that might be.

    The next interpretation could be connected to Ouri- if we just give more weight to that and with the info that Yuuki has- it could be a message to her that she wants her appear like she can trusts Sara (since Yuuki knows that the chances for Kaname killing Ouri are limited), but my second guess there is a bit a long shot here...given the fact that Yuuki might more easily fall for the obvious.

    I think the first interpretation has more chances but Yuuki does not seem to so easily fall for that - I think the next question is to see if that means that here Kaname's plan to convict himself to Yuuki's eyes and to give her a reason to stay behind and do not interfere actually fails...specially after the sudden revelation with the tablets which Aidou brings to the academy, if Kaname's intention was to give Yuuki a reason to guard Sara and actually stay there, right now it fails because other evidence come to light and this can lead to new things that perhaps had not been calculated such as Yuuki now twisting against Sara and handing her to the association? What do you think? scratch






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    sweetsolace
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    Re: Kaname's message

    Post by sweetsolace on Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:13 pm

    this might explain why Yuki looks irritated in her
    reply to him, she says, "You're probably expecting to see a 'fed up'
    reaction from me, but I'm actually glad he was thinking of me" hence,
    the arm grab response. Razz Razz Razz

    of course... It was not included in Kaien's first instructions. So? Zero had included it by his own choice OR Kaien did. Razz

    Kaname told Kaien to tell Yuki he had killed Ouri, then Sara is next. Kaien, then, PROBABLY, had told Zero to tell Yuki he had called for her.

    But what makes me doubt that Zero's intentions to Yuki are "clean" is because the translation doesn't say anything that Kaien instructed Zero to be the one to tell her about it.
    Kaien was probably discussing something like this to Zero
    Kaien: Kaname just told me that he had killed Ouri then Sara is next. I want you to fetch Yuki and tell her I called for her. < the message could be like this, in which case, it is Zero's choice again to badmouth Kaname more.

    It makes sense that was what Kaien told because Zero first fetched for Yuki and when that failed, Zero came back again to tell her she didn't come over. And then when he delivered the message there's already ADDITIONAL information. Razz

    however its also possible that Kaien was the one who ORDERED the additional information. but for what?

    ////
    in chapter 67, Yuki only saw Aido-dono killed by Kaname. She did not see him kill Hanadagi. But I think she already knew it based on her reaction in chapter 71 when she broke down after hearing Kaname continued killing up to Hio clan. So it was not a new thing for her that Kaname killed Hanadagi. But why need to freshen it up?

    ////

    this leads to the question. Who wants to intentionally badmouth Kaname in Yuki's eyes?
    Kaien or Zero?

    as we know, Kaien wants to "protect" Yuki by keeping her away from Kaname. So he would want to keep telling her bad things about him and reinforce the idea that "he is dangerous" as Kaname also wanted.

    but Zero also has a motive to badmouth Kaname, first because he has feelings for Yuki and second its his best chance to get ahead of him now that Yuki is separated from him. Yuki's response might explain this, it was directed towards Zero in a sort of "sorry to say this, but you failed in your attempt" reply. It was definitely a personal reply and it was for him. Another thing is the arm grab. Why would he react to what Yuki told him? There were four things she said that he might HAVE reacted to.
    "You think I'd get pissed by hearing all that?
    Im actually glad that he was thinking about me.
    If it means becoming his chess piece, I will do it.
    And then I will beat him. "


    "You think I'd get pissed by hearing all that? - obviously she had a preconceived idea that Zero was there to badmouth Kaname and worsen his image in her eyes. And Zero was telling her, "no"
    Im actually glad that he was thinking about me. - if he reacted to this, then its obviously because he was jealous and his attempt to make him worse failed.
    If it means becoming his chess piece, I will do it. - he was a chess piece before, a piece made to protect Yuki and be his shield. Tell me what is so miserable with that role that he can relate to and try to stop Yuki from? Zero was not controlled or suffered from being Kaname's chess piece as far as I know. So its quite likely he just want to stop her.
    And then I will beat him. " -the best thing about this, is that Yuki is not downing everything kaname does like a dog, she also gets PISSED OFF because he's being an @sshole, anyone who loves would. So why would Zero react to that? Does he love Kaname romantically and doesn't want him hurt?

    Actually, anything can be open to interpretation when it comes to Zero, ESPECIALLY when he uses his actions to speak for himself and most of all, because he doesn't talk and he doesn't reveal his thoughts. So who's to say he isn't flirting or he's helping her?

    Remember that this is the SECOND TIME someone ASSUMED the contents of Zero's OBSCURED mind because he kept his silence. Aido once, in his prison, said he will not become like Zero who is consumed by hatred. But he did nothing. Now Zero reacted to Yuki's assumption when he didn't do it before. maybe something about it is true? or false?

    from the overall construction of Yuki's message, it seems to me she is telling him exactly this, "You failed thinking that I will change my mind about loving him. In fact, I don't mind playing his game if it will lead me to him. And then I will find him and punish him myself"
    And then Zero's response was the arm grab. Insulted? More likely. But from all the assumptions others made to him before Yuki, this is the only one he reacted to. Again, probably because it has a lot of truth in it, the truth hurts after all.
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    Re: Kaname's message

    Post by caela on Sat Nov 12, 2011 8:52 am

    @Juliet: I have an opinion on Kaname’s intended translation of the message. I agree that he wants Yuuki to stay on the school campus. I do not think he had the protection of Sara on his mind though…but apparently I have some older business to attend to with sweetsolace before I can explain myself…

    **********************

    @sweetsolace: I do not think I need to change my eyesight. I think I see the same old arguments that you brought up before that I already gave arguments against. You cut and paste from a different thread and forgot to cut and paste what I wrote.

    The only new points you brought up is that (1) both Zero and Kaien are only possible people to have changed the message and that (2) you fantasize about Yuuki punishing Kaname.

    I have no problem with saying that an idea of mine is wrong. I only do that when I am presented with evidence and reasoning.

    Your entire argument is based on the possibility that Zero changed the message due to motive and means. All I have to show is that Cross changed the message.

    Everything else you posted was already argued against on a different thread. You have yet to respond to those points in the original thread or in this new one. Here are the links.

    http://vampireknight.all-up.com/t921p110-does-zero-feel-rejected
    http://vampireknight.all-up.com/t921p120-does-zero-feel-rejected
    http://vampireknight.all-up.com/t921p130-does-zero-feel-rejected


    When you feel less lazy, you are welcome to argue against those points in either thread. Otherwise the other points I made remain uncontested, well, because I brought up new points and you continue ignoring my points and reposting your old ones....in a thread I started.

    ************************

    Kaien Cross thinks that Sara did not kill Ouri; he thinks that Kaname did it but Sara was the actual murderer.

    Kaien: (chapter 76) [Kaname] said the next one would be Sara Shirabuki. Although we don’t know if it’s true or not, we should inform her to be more careful.

    Kaien to Kaname (chapter 75): Why are you trying to annihilate all the purebloods?...[thoughts] Kaname is serious about deciding to exterminate all the purebloods.

    If Kaien thought that Sara was one of the murderers, there would be no reason to warn her about Kaname. Instead, Kaien would be protecting other purebloods from Sara.

    As a result of thinking Sara innocent, Kaien probably thinks that Kaname killed Ouri (the only other [/b]pureblood in attendance other than Sara and Yuuki at the Ouri-death party)

    Kaien Cross beliefs on Hanadagi’s death: Probably thinks Kaname did this one, especially with the thought, “Kaname is serious about deciding to exterminate all the purebloods”. Kaien has no proof of this because he did not witness it.

    In truth, Kaname did kill Hanadagi.

    If Kaien changed the message, Kaien actually believes both murders was committed by Kaname.

    Kaien’s motive for changing the message: Because he wants Yuuki to lose faith in Kaname.

    Chapter 75: Witlessfool translation

    Cross to Kaname: …is this really the path you’re going to choose?
    Yuuki, somewhere deep inside, still believes in you.

    Kaname: That’s so like Yuuki...
    Please tell Yuuki – if you tell her this, maybe she’ll realize – tell her I killed Ouri-san. Next one will be Sara Shirabuki.

    Cross: Kaname...!

    Here Cross is trying to convince Kaname to stop killing purebloods by bringing up Yuuki’s faith in a good Kaname. Cross takes Kaname’s message as Kaname’s rejection to being good; therefore, Cross has motive to poison Yuuki’s mind against Kaname.

    *********************

    Zero’s understanding of Ouri’s murder:
    (1) Smelled blood on Sara’s breath. (2) Kaien saw Kaname wielding a hunter weapon. (Kaien told Zero the message, he probably told Zero about the sword too)

    Zero can rub two brain cells together. He should know that Sara killed Ouri.

    Zero’s understanding of Hanadagi’s murder: Zero was not there. He either is unsure of the killer or he would trust Kaien, who thinks that all the pureblood murders was done by Kaname.

    Zero’s motive for changing the message: as per sweetsolace, poisoning Yuuki’s mind against Kaname.

    *******************
    Both Kaien and Zero “share” motive and possibly the “understanding” of Hanadagi’s death. Where they differ is who they believe killed Ouri.

    If Zero were to change the message, he would try to match the truth value of “Ouri’s death” to any other murders he would blame Kaname for. Otherwise, he risks having the message mistranslated by Yuuki and possible unintended consequences may occur.

    Yuuki was also at the party, close enough to both Zero and Sara to be touching Zero’s hand, which was touching Sara. Yuuki also smelled blood on Sara’s breath and Zero should know that Yuuki was close enough to smell Sara’s breath. Zero should have the understanding that Yuuki would possibly know that Sara killed Ouri, not Kaname.

    For Zero to use the message to bad mouth Kaname makes no sense, especially with the addition of Hanadagi. One possible Kaname killing plus one non-Kaname killing does not equal poisoning Yuuki’s mind; it would only have Yuuki doubt the message. What is the point in that?

    ************************

    Cross actually believes both murders were committed by Kaname, so he would have no conflict in adding the Hanadagi murder.

    ************************

    In conclusion, it was either Cross who changed the message, or another hunter (well, you know the hunters are shipping Zeki.)
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    Re: Kaname's message

    Post by sweetsolace on Sat Nov 12, 2011 10:56 am

    @caela
    good that you're paying attention. So... you've previously replied to it. So? The question of your thread remains the same, as your response is, so I have the same answer. Razz Nothing wrong, unless you're lazy typing the same thing.


    The only new points you brought up is that (1) both Zero and Kaien are
    only possible people to have changed the message and that (2) you
    fantasize about Yuuki punishing Kaname.
    I don't know if you've been reading too fast or doing something. I included the basic thing you've been ignoring:

    Actually, anything can be open to interpretation when it comes to
    Zero, ESPECIALLY when he uses his actions to speak for himself and most
    of all, because he doesn't talk and he doesn't reveal his thoughts. So who's to say he isn't flirting or he's helping her?

    and here you're saying this


    Your entire argument is based on the possibility that Zero changed the message due to motive and means. All I have to show is that Cross changed the message.

    you're claiming something you can't even prove. I don't have to repeat myself. Use your eyes to read my post.

    anyway I'm going to post what you've evidently skipped as a summary to educate you:

    of course... It was not included in Kaien's first instructions. So? Zero had included it by his own choice OR Kaien did
    I included both possibilities and every little possibilty there could be for either Zero or Kaien to have included that additional passage, while your eyesight only saw your preferred response.

    I think you're afraid arguing against my points so you failed to bring up new ones. That's fine. Feel free to say it out loud. This is a free forum after all.

    though you've proven nothing with your post except keep asserting your belief that it was Kaien who ordered Zero, with nothing to back up your claim. It all sounds like a pretty far fetched fantasized idea to reassure yourself that you're not wrong. If that's the case its pretty useless. When you've become more open minded and actually here to debate against real points, feel free to post it.
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    Re: Kaname's message

    Post by Anneliezz on Sat Nov 12, 2011 12:30 pm

    I've never thought about this much. I also thought that Kaien had told zero the content of the message, maybe not the exact same words. I just Imagine Kaien saying something like: 'Kaname told us to tell Yuuki he was the one to kill those pb who are murdered.' Then if Zero mentioned Hanadagi, it wouldn't be weird.

    I've never even thought about it as something deliberate.

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    Re: Kaname's message

    Post by juliet on Sat Nov 12, 2011 1:10 pm

    Anneliezz wrote:I've never thought about this much. I also thought that Kaien had told zero the content of the message, maybe not the exact same words. I just Imagine Kaien saying something like: 'Kaname told us to tell Yuuki he was the one to kill those pb who are murdered.' Then if Zero mentioned Hanadagi, it wouldn't be weird.

    I've never even thought about it as something deliberate.


    I also think that there is no need in overanalyzing this because after all Yuuki's stance and opinion does not change and she also knew or thought that Kaname was the main suspect for Hananadi's murder all along; after all its true that Kaname killed Hanadagi, the news is about Ouri and Sara, now the message could be transferred in more dramatic colors (Hanadagi's reminder) to remind Yuuki of Kaname's crimes (this is why I say that I am impressed that Hio was left out here or Hino forgot him)...so few things to say about it Razz Razz , the good thing is that Yuuki remains true to herself even with Ouri's death...(that I do not know if she fully believes this point but it does not seem to effect her that much or really surprise her)..

    Oh and wanted to add that either the hunters made the message to appeal more dramatic in their intention to scare Yuuki, either Zero or just Cross changes, Kaname certainly had intended to make the worst of himself with that message the main point is that they fail, they fail, they fail... bounce bounce bounce bounce all of them, so I do not care LOL, Yuuki has set her own mind and her won conclusion and there Kaien, Zero, the hunters and Kaname's intentions fail...






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    Re: Kaname's message

    Post by nina on Sat Nov 12, 2011 2:43 pm

    caela wrote: What was the correct interpretation that was intended by Kaname?

    Why was there additional information in Zero's version?

    Hm … I didn’t notice that the message that Zero passed to Yuuki was slightly different from what Kaname actually said.

    Could be an inconsistency from the author? Cuz I can’t see what’s the point from Zero or Kaien to add Hanadagi’s name moreover since Yuuki probably had figured that Kaname killed him.

    Either way the most “shocking” part of Kaname’s message was that he killed also Ouri … a killing that has different gravity and that the next will be Sara. So?

    I have an opinion on Kaname’s intended translation of the message. I agree that he wants Yuuki to stay on the school campus. I do not think he had the protection of Sara on his mind though…

    Ofc not Kaname didn’t have the protection of Sara in his mind by sending that message. But by saying that Sara is the next one could indicates again his wish for Yuuki to stay at the academy … is quite different.

    And I think this is what Yuuki decodes from his message since she said to Zero that she wants to do what Kaname wants “at the entrusted place” >> the key phrase is “the entrusted place” viz most likely at the academy.

    **************
    Now we do not know if someone changed this message on purpose and frankly I can’t see any valid purpose/motive here from any of the “mailmen” …

    All I have to show is that Cross changed the message.

    Kaien Cross thinks that Sara did not kill Ouri; he thinks that Kaname did it but Sara was the actual murderer.

    If Kaien convinced so easily from Kaname’s lie then something is wrong here cuz Zero (as you also stated) smelt fresh blood from Sara at the soiree which means that he didn’t inform Kaien or the rest of the hunters about that significant info? Remember that the hunters ran an investigation about this incident and despite that they “closed” the case as suicide they weren’t at all convinced that this was what actually happened. In fact Kaito stated that he was determinate to go to the bottom of this. So did or didn’t Zero inform them about his discovery?

    Not to mention that Kaname was all along present at the soiree and he never deserted the place … So he has a strong alibi since the place watched from hunters …

    Kaien: (chapter 76) [Kaname] said the next one would be Sara Shirabuki. Although we don’t know if it’s true or not, we should inform her to be more careful.

    Kaien to Kaname (chapter 75): Why are you trying to annihilate all the purebloods?...[thoughts] Kaname is serious about deciding to exterminate all the purebloods.

    If Kaien thought that Sara was one of the murderers, there would be no reason to warn her about Kaname. Instead, Kaien would be protecting other purebloods from Sara.

    Kaien’s intention is to stop the bloodshed … so even if he wasn’t sure that Kaname killed Ouri I think he would try to “protect” Sara by informing her about Kaname’s “intention”. Here he sheltered Touma, a PB who attacked and hurt Yuuki without any reason …

    But in any case Kaien has wrong judgment here cuz obviously Sara is a big threat not only for the other vampires who are students at HIS academy but eventually for humans too.


    As a result of thinking Sara innocent, Kaien probably thinks that Kaname killed Ouri (the only other [/b]pureblood in attendance other than Sara and Yuuki at the Ouri-death party)

    Kaien Cross beliefs on Hanadagi’s death: Probably thinks Kaname did this one, especially with the thought, “Kaname is serious about deciding to exterminate all the purebloods”. Kaien has no proof of this because he did not witness it.

    Right … Kaien believes that Kaname killed Hanadagi and he believes that because he was ONE of the witnesses at Hanadagi’s castle. The other witnesses were Yuuki and Hanabusa. Did Kaien saw something more than the others?
    No … he saw exactly what Yuuki saw as well. So what’s the purpose to add Hanadagi’s name in Kaname’s message? The only new info was Ouri’s killing not Hanadagi’s not even Hio’s … Yuuki knew about those already and haven’t changed her heart.

    What I’m trying to say here is that even if Kaien’s motive was to persuade further Yuuki about Kaname’s killings in order to be more disappointed from Kaname, Hanadagi’s death can’t change Yuuki’s views. She didn’t change her mind/trust in Kaname despite that she saw with her own eyes the killing of Aido-dono and the death of Hanadagi would make the difference?

    But what you forgot to add or emphasize from Kaien’s wordings are the ones that Kaien shows disbelief in what Kaname’s says. >>

    1. “Kaname kun you are seriously planning to extinguish all the PBs … except Yuuki. OR ELSE … (chapter 75)
    2. “He said Shirabuki is the next one … I should tell her to protect herself no matter if it’s TRUE or NOT.” (chapter 76)

    So in other words there is still doubt in Kaein’s mind if Kaname is indeed planning to annihilate ALL the PBs. And he is not the only one from the hunters who has doubts >>

    Kaito: “I don’t know that guy’s purpose and how FAR will he wield that hunter’s sword and remain calm but without doubt, you (Yuuki) will not be extinguished.” (chapter 75)

    Also Kaito doesn’t know if Kaname’s plan is to kill all the PBs << going as far.

    Another reason for Kaien to have doubts IMO is the incident with Touma. IF Kaname wanted Touma dead he could have removed his heart thus and any blow from Kaen’s sword would be the lethal. But as we saw Touma is still alive. Kaname left him alive in Kaien’s “protective” hands … hm

    In any case Kaien seems like he doesn’t have grasped the whole picture>
    - He doesn’t know the involvement of Sara in Hanadagi’s death.
    - He doesn’t know that Sara had a scent of fresh blood at the soiree where Ouri’s murder took place.
    - The hunters and Kaien as well seem (thus far at least) that have no clue about Sara’s tampered tablets and that are distributed not only in dark alleys but also in the supposedly secured academy under their noses!
    - And what happened with the children kidnaps and the auction of the young human girl? Zero supposed to be in charge of these cases … ???

    However Yagari was right about one thing >>
    Yagari: “If the PBs wished to, can you imagine what they are capable to do? They would be the tyrant of not only the vampires but also human beings.”
    http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/76/17

    >> the panel of Sara under this wording of Yagari is the evidence that the real enemy here is Sara and not Kaname … So whatever Kaien’s belief is about Kaname’s intentions doesn’t mean that his perspective of the whole situation is right or completed.

    Cross takes Kaname’s message as Kaname’s rejection to being good; therefore, Cross has motive to poison Yuuki’s mind against Kaname.

    If so then he is obviously mistaken here for the above reasons that I unfolded whether are originated from the lack of info or from bad judgment.

    Though IMO Kaien isn’t convinced about Kaname’s intention to kill all the PBs or his “rejection to being good”, but that doesn’t mean he won’t try to keep Yuuki at the academy. For me these are two different things.

    And to go back in the initial question of this thread … I think ONE of the purposes of Kaname’s message was for Yuuki to be convinced to stay at the academy (the next will be Sara) << something that as it seems all the parties decoded as such … Yuuki and Kaien as well.
    If Kaname also wanted to convey additional messages such as he is the bad guy here by taken upon his shoulders Ouri’s murder apparently it’s not so convincing because there are trails that pinpoints on Sara and moreover these trails are spotted from Yuuki … Also Takuma knows the truth for Ouri’s murder from Sara’s own mouth, not to mention the new discovery of Sara’s tablets and the caged Hanadagi’s servant.
    So in my opinion what Kaname’s “confession” about Ouri’s murder brought was Yuuki’s further irritation/annoyance >> as she already said to Takuma previously >> “What’s pissing me off and annoying me is that he seems like won’t care even if he is suspected by the whole world.” (chapter 73)

    And bottom line … this Kaname’s lie and his attempt to uncharge Sara is short-lived cuz Sara’s involvement either with Ouri or Hanadagi is going to be unveiled sooner or later so even if he actually wanted to convince Yuuki otherwise probably his “wish” will fail. Thus I’m really reserved to believe that Kaname is so “shortsighted” and couldn’t predict the developments which will shatter his lie eventually …

    But even if he stupidly thought that his lie was valid (which I do not believe) it failed … I think Yuuki saw through that message thus she decides to stay at the “entrusted place” and advance Kaname’s plan for the time being.

    Juliet wrote: the good thing is that Yuuki remains true to herself even with Ouri's death...(that I do not know if she fully believes this point but it does not seem to effect her that much or really surprise her)..

    Oh and wanted to add that either the hunters made the message to appeal more dramatic in their intention to scare Yuuki, either Zero or just Cross changes, Kaname certainly had intended to make the worst of himself with that message the main point is that they fail, they fail, they fail... bounce bounce bounce bounce all of them, so I do not care LOL, Yuuki has set her own mind and her won conclusion and there Kaien, Zero, the hunters and Kaname's intentions fail...

    Haha I agree bounce bounce bounce . My interpretation is the same … cheers





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    Re: Kaname's message

    Post by sweetsolace on Sat Nov 12, 2011 4:26 pm

    @nina
    Now we do not know if someone changed this message on purpose and
    frankly I can’t see any valid purpose/motive here from any of the
    “mailmen
    ” …

    I don't think you read what I just said here or it matches what you said in another thread if I remember

    as we know, Kaien wants to "protect" Yuki by keeping her away from
    Kaname. So he would want to keep telling her bad things about him and
    reinforce the idea that "he is dangerous" as Kaname also wanted.

    but
    Zero also has a motive to badmouth Kaname, first because he has
    feelings for Yuki and second its his best chance to get ahead of him now
    that Yuki is separated from him.
    its easy to disregard something especially if you don't like what it means for any of them.
    Both have equally reasonable motives to do what they did. and no one can actually explain if its a typo or not hence anyone is right or wrong. an argument can be raised to prove if its valid or not.


    If Kaien convinced so easily from Kaname’s lie then something is
    wrong here cuz Zero (as you also stated) smelt fresh blood from Sara at
    the soiree which means that he didn’t inform Kaien or the rest of the
    hunters about that significant info? Remember that the hunters ran an
    investigation about this incident and despite that they “closed” the
    case as suicide they weren’t at all convinced that this was what
    actually happened. In fact Kaito stated that he was determinate to go to
    the bottom of this. So did or didn’t Zero inform them about his
    discovery?
    I don't understand where you are going here with this convolution? scratch the topic was about kaname's message that he was going to pass to Yuki thru Kaien, and Kaien or Zero somehow altered the content of the message , by whichever intentions he intends it.

    why go back all the way to the party incident, it doesn't make sense. Because clearly until something gets proven it won't become a reality, and Zero had failed to prove that Sara did anything. All this doesn't concern the question of the thread.

    I think you guys are missing the point here or going out of topic. Kaname asked Kaien to DELIVER his message to Yuki and that Kaien somehow , BEHIND THE SCENES, RELAYED the message to Yuki thru Zero, with an additional message. Thats the point of this topic, correct? The Hanadagi info was not included in Kaname's message, but for some reason it was ADDED into his mail by someone. Let's not forget the real discussion here and we're not talking about a broken down person.
    The mailman is indeed responsible for the contents of the message as
    well as its integrity. So what happens when the ORIGINAL CONTENT of the
    supposed message to be passed gets altered? The mailman or the machine
    that sent it has malfunctioned somewhere. And the cause of the damage
    must be sought out in order to be repaired. The damage or the motive is
    what we're talking about here, why it got altered, and who did it. The option includes Hino.

    Anyway about Kaien, I think he's the type of guy who will blindly follow his coexistence belief even if its already ridiculous. To me his actions seem fallacious and even shallow, he wouldn't allow Sara or Touma to be harmed by Kaname but he's defending the same purebloods who are, potentially on the same level as Kaname's "evil". He knows Touma had been punished by Kaname before, and although Zero knew it he didn't tell so Kaien doesn't know. Kaien also doesn't know what Sara's been doing aside from suspecting her so I doubt he would know informing her would only make her armed to the teeth.

    the ironic notion here is Kaien potentially DEFENDING the enemy because of his "peaceful" I-should-go-by-the-peace-rules belief. Don't know what will happen to that, probably it will bite him by the arse later on. But this pretty much shows what you get when you play too much righteousness

    No … he saw exactly what Yuuki saw as well.
    I don't think its rocket science to see that there were leftover remains of DUST /crystal over Hanadagi's? And the open tomb? Hello?! its obvious that they know Hanadagi was killed by the same person (Kaname) that killed Nagamichi, being the only murderer found on the scene and possibly the only witness potentially there was missing (guardian lady). So the killer can "only be" Kaname. Hunters are pretty stupid when it comes to investigating, IMO they have probably jumped down to accusing, "Ah, Kaname did all this two murders" and run with it to the finish line instead of thinking beyond the box of possibly another murderer. no way they could've suspected Sara. There was no trace of her in that scene.

    another thing you've raised is something I've already mentioned. Kaien might continue to degrade Kaname in Yuki's eyes for the simple reason that he wants her away from him, simply because he is dangerous. Hence the reinforcement of an idea she might potentially have already known. Exactly. She might have known it already. Exactly because she was there together with Kaien on the crime scene when it happened. The bottom line: Kaien was there with Yuki so he knows what she knows---whats the point repeating what she already knew, the point that "Kaname killed Hanadagi"?
    So how does this fit with Zero's motives and Kaien's motives? which is more reasonable and not?
    IMO Zero's, for whatever intention he INCLUDES the hanadagi fact, he did it to enumerate Kaname's crimes for her. He was not there on the scene when it happened = He was not there to know if Yuki already knew about it. It makes all the sense in the world for him to have added it on the roster, maybe to inform her, who knows? But given her response, her all knowing response, I believe she had seen through his message "for her" and the addition. Time and again Yuki seemed like she knew Zero deep inside, and IMO might have applied in this case.

    I hope you all know where Im getting here, because I don't like repetition Razz If you have other points you want to raise without getting intimidated by me or something, spill it because this is a forum and we're here to discuss. Smile

    other than that I agree with some of your points nina

    @Kaien thoughts on Kaname killing all purebloods
    there are many things to consider especially the rumors he is eating and others. He has obviously ate the "Kaname is killing all purebloods" and that is far from what we saw happened (as the readers), that kaname is selecting only the pureblood heads. Kaien RUN with this idea until it led him to trying to stop Kaname from killing "all the Shoutou family".
    To him, death is a bad thing. But what contradicted this, is the very fact he had killed the association president for being a corrupt vampire. So its not a question of morality of killing, but Kaien being blinded from the truth that Touma or Sara are the bad guys. And being blind, he uses his heart to think that since Touma and Sara are the victims right now, they must be defended, whether or not their guilt is proven. He chooses to protect the hidden criminals/threats in favor of his believed justice.
    We still wont know what Sara or Touma will do to him after his sympathetic-reaching-of-the-hand-as-altruistic-deed-to-prove-something to the bad guys. Probably he'll learn about it the hard way, or not. Maybe it will change Sara or Touma's mind and they will soften up and become good guys because of his cute sympathetic gesture to the Enemy. We don't know.
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    Re: Kaname's message

    Post by juliet on Sat Nov 12, 2011 5:09 pm

    If Kaname also wanted to convey additional messages such as he is the bad guy here by taken upon his shoulders Ouri’s murder apparently it’s not so convincing because there are trails that pinpoints on Sara and moreover these trails are spotted from Yuuki … Also Takuma knows the truth for Ouri’s murder from Sara’s own mouth, not to mention the new discovery of Sara’s tablets and the caged Hanadagi’s servant.
    So in my opinion what Kaname’s “confession” about Ouri’s murder brought was Yuuki’s further irritation/annoyance >> as she already said to Takuma previously >> “What’s pissing me off and annoying me is that he seems like won’t care even if he is suspected by the whole world.” (chapter 73)

    And bottom line … this Kaname’s lie and his attempt to uncharge Sara is short-lived cuz Sara’s involvement either with Ouri or Hanadagi is going to be unveiled sooner or later so even if he actually wanted to convince Yuuki otherwise probably his “wish” will fail. Thus I’m really reserved to believe that Kaname is so “shortsighted” and couldn’t predict the developments which will shatter his lie eventually …

    and all these reasons that you offer here, make me also think that perhaps the intention was not to persuade Yuuki but to offer her lets say an excuse that it comes out of his lips so that she can show trust to Sara? even for a little while? scratch I know that the opposition here says but are you expecting Yuuki to grasp that message? As I said its a long-long shot...but on the other hand didn't Yuuki already stated that she will follow his game in a way? like accepting that "yes for the time being that's what I must show that I believe?"

    Its amusing the script because it can expand to many directions...still even if that was Kaname's intention again the tablets are bringing a new dimension> where again Kaname's intention fail all together> and that corners Sara that will probably need better excuses to persuade Yuuki.






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    Re: Kaname's message

    Post by caela on Sat Nov 12, 2011 5:10 pm

    nina wrote:
    caela wrote: What was the correct interpretation that was intended by Kaname?

    Why was there additional information in Zero's version?

    Hm … I didn’t notice that the message that Zero passed to Yuuki was slightly different from what Kaname actually said.

    Could be an inconsistency from the author? Cuz I can’t see what’s the point from Zero or Kaien to add Hanadagi’s name moreover since Yuuki probably had figured that Kaname killed him.

    Either way the most “shocking” part of Kaname’s message was that he killed also Ouri … a killing that has different gravity and that the next will be Sara. So?

    I have an opinion on Kaname’s intended translation of the message. I agree that he wants Yuuki to stay on the school campus. I do not think he had the protection of Sara on his mind though…

    Ofc not Kaname didn’t have the protection of Sara in his mind by sending that message. But by saying that Sara is the next one could indicates again his wish for Yuuki to stay at the academy … is quite different.

    And I think this is what Yuuki decodes from his message since she said to Zero that she wants to do what Kaname wants “at the entrusted place” >> the key phrase is “the entrusted place” viz most likely at the academy.

    **************
    Now we do not know if someone changed this message on purpose and frankly I can’t see any valid purpose/motive here from any of the “mailmen” …

    All I have to show is that Cross changed the message.

    Kaien Cross thinks that Sara did not kill Ouri; he thinks that Kaname did it but Sara was the actual murderer.

    If Kaien convinced so easily from Kaname’s lie then something is wrong here cuz Zero (as you also stated) smelt fresh blood from Sara at the soiree which means that he didn’t inform Kaien or the rest of the hunters about that significant info? Remember that the hunters ran an investigation about this incident and despite that they “closed” the case as suicide they weren’t at all convinced that this was what actually happened. In fact Kaito stated that he was determinate to go to the bottom of this. So did or didn’t Zero inform them about his discovery?

    Not to mention that Kaname was all along present at the soiree and he never deserted the place … So he has a strong alibi since the place watched from hunters …

    Kaien: (chapter 76) [Kaname] said the next one would be Sara Shirabuki. Although we don’t know if it’s true or not, we should inform her to be more careful.

    Kaien to Kaname (chapter 75): Why are you trying to annihilate all the purebloods?...[thoughts] Kaname is serious about deciding to exterminate all the purebloods.

    If Kaien thought that Sara was one of the murderers, there would be no reason to warn her about Kaname. Instead, Kaien would be protecting other purebloods from Sara.

    Kaien’s intention is to stop the bloodshed … so even if he wasn’t sure that Kaname killed Ouri I think he would try to “protect” Sara by informing her about Kaname’s “intention”. Here he sheltered Touma, a PB who attacked and hurt Yuuki without any reason …

    But in any case Kaien has wrong judgment here cuz obviously Sara is a big threat not only for the other vampires who are students at HIS academy but eventually for humans too.


    As a result of thinking Sara innocent, Kaien probably thinks that Kaname killed Ouri (the only other [/b]pureblood in attendance other than Sara and Yuuki at the Ouri-death party)

    Kaien Cross beliefs on Hanadagi’s death: Probably thinks Kaname did this one, especially with the thought, “Kaname is serious about deciding to exterminate all the purebloods”. Kaien has no proof of this because he did not witness it.

    Right … Kaien believes that Kaname killed Hanadagi and he believes that because he was ONE of the witnesses at Hanadagi’s castle. The other witnesses were Yuuki and Hanabusa. Did Kaien saw something more than the others?
    No … he saw exactly what Yuuki saw as well. So what’s the purpose to add Hanadagi’s name in Kaname’s message? The only new info was Ouri’s killing not Hanadagi’s not even Hio’s … Yuuki knew about those already and haven’t changed her heart.

    What I’m trying to say here is that even if Kaien’s motive was to persuade further Yuuki about Kaname’s killings in order to be more disappointed from Kaname, Hanadagi’s death can’t change Yuuki’s views. She didn’t change her mind/trust in Kaname despite that she saw with her own eyes the killing of Aido-dono and the death of Hanadagi would make the difference?

    But what you forgot to add or emphasize from Kaien’s wordings are the ones that Kaien shows disbelief in what Kaname’s says. >>

    1. “Kaname kun you are seriously planning to extinguish all the PBs … except Yuuki. OR ELSE … (chapter 75)
    2. “He said Shirabuki is the next one … I should tell her to protect herself no matter if it’s TRUE or NOT.” (chapter 76)

    So in other words there is still doubt in Kaein’s mind if Kaname is indeed planning to annihilate ALL the PBs. And he is not the only one from the hunters who has doubts >>

    Kaito: “I don’t know that guy’s purpose and how FAR will he wield that hunter’s sword and remain calm but without doubt, you (Yuuki) will not be extinguished.” (chapter 75)

    Also Kaito doesn’t know if Kaname’s plan is to kill all the PBs << going as far.

    Another reason for Kaien to have doubts IMO is the incident with Touma. IF Kaname wanted Touma dead he could have removed his heart thus and any blow from Kaen’s sword would be the lethal. But as we saw Touma is still alive. Kaname left him alive in Kaien’s “protective” hands … hm

    In any case Kaien seems like he doesn’t have grasped the whole picture>
    - He doesn’t know the involvement of Sara in Hanadagi’s death.
    - He doesn’t know that Sara had a scent of fresh blood at the soiree where Ouri’s murder took place.
    - The hunters and Kaien as well seem (thus far at least) that have no clue about Sara’s tampered tablets and that are distributed not only in dark alleys but also in the supposedly secured academy under their noses!
    - And what happened with the children kidnaps and the auction of the young human girl? Zero supposed to be in charge of these cases … ???

    However Yagari was right about one thing >>
    Yagari: “If the PBs wished to, can you imagine what they are capable to do? They would be the tyrant of not only the vampires but also human beings.”
    http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/76/17

    >> the panel of Sara under this wording of Yagari is the evidence that the real enemy here is Sara and not Kaname … So whatever Kaien’s belief is about Kaname’s intentions doesn’t mean that his perspective of the whole situation is right or completed.

    Cross takes Kaname’s message as Kaname’s rejection to being good; therefore, Cross has motive to poison Yuuki’s mind against Kaname.

    If so then he is obviously mistaken here for the above reasons that I unfolded whether are originated from the lack of info or from bad judgment.

    Though IMO Kaien isn’t convinced about Kaname’s intention to kill all the PBs or his “rejection to being good”, but that doesn’t mean he won’t try to keep Yuuki at the academy. For me these are two different things.

    And to go back in the initial question of this thread … I think ONE of the purposes of Kaname’s message was for Yuuki to be convinced to stay at the academy (the next will be Sara) << something that as it seems all the parties decoded as such … Yuuki and Kaien as well.
    If Kaname also wanted to convey additional messages such as he is the bad guy here by taken upon his shoulders Ouri’s murder apparently it’s not so convincing because there are trails that pinpoints on Sara and moreover these trails are spotted from Yuuki … Also Takuma knows the truth for Ouri’s murder from Sara’s own mouth, not to mention the new discovery of Sara’s tablets and the caged Hanadagi’s servant.
    So in my opinion what Kaname’s “confession” about Ouri’s murder brought was Yuuki’s further irritation/annoyance >> as she already said to Takuma previously >> “What’s pissing me off and annoying me is that he seems like won’t care even if he is suspected by the whole world.” (chapter 73)

    And bottom line … this Kaname’s lie and his attempt to uncharge Sara is short-lived cuz Sara’s involvement either with Ouri or Hanadagi is going to be unveiled sooner or later so even if he actually wanted to convince Yuuki otherwise probably his “wish” will fail. Thus I’m really reserved to believe that Kaname is so “shortsighted” and couldn’t predict the developments which will shatter his lie eventually …

    But even if he stupidly thought that his lie was valid (which I do not believe) it failed … I think Yuuki saw through that message thus she decides to stay at the “entrusted place” and advance Kaname’s plan for the time being.

    Juliet wrote: the good thing is that Yuuki remains true to herself even with Ouri's death...(that I do not know if she fully believes this point but it does not seem to effect her that much or really surprise her)..

    Oh and wanted to add that either the hunters made the message to appeal more dramatic in their intention to scare Yuuki, either Zero or just Cross changes, Kaname certainly had intended to make the worst of himself with that message the main point is that they fail, they fail, they fail... bounce bounce bounce bounce all of them, so I do not care LOL, Yuuki has set her own mind and her won conclusion and there Kaien, Zero, the hunters and Kaname's intentions fail...

    Haha I agree bounce bounce bounce . My interpretation is the same … cheers

    @nina: my only disagreement is that whether or not Zero reported smelling fresh blood on Sara's breath (which I see no reason why he would keep that information to himself), is that Cross does ignore reality: he is allowing Sara and Yuuki to be in the same class, when he should know that there is no reason to rule out Sara from being a suspect to Ouri's murder.

    Also, Kaien was set-up by Kaname to kill Touma and that in itself shocked Kaien into believing in the possibility that Kaname is serious about pureblood extermination. Kaien knows that Touma attacked Yuuki, who would not start a fight. Kaien protecting Touma by bringing Touma to the Hunter Association is naive and may cause problems for the Hunter Association later on.

    (The translations you gave are from the S2S scans I believe...and I have been having discrepancy problems with them....missing words and the like, so I am willing to leave most of my points in the air until I get better translations or more time to look at the raws. I'm also having problems with the IEM scans. And not just with chapter 74.)

    About Kaname's intentions:

    I'm not in disagreement with anyone with this theory I think:

    My interpretation of Kaname's message is that he had a multi-layered message:

    first part of message = lie
    therefore second part of message = lie

    Kaname will not be coming to the school to take care of Sara, Yuuki will have to be the one to "not hesitate" and take care of Sara.

    Deeper layer message: Yuuki chose to interpret the message as to mean she is a chess piece but
    Kaname's message reaffirms his committment to his destructive plans, the plans from which he cannot stop continuing because the point of no return was Aidou-dono's death (my interpretation of Kaname's POV). That death means that the vampire world will no longer trust Kaname for killing his number one supporter and he cannot return to his unofficial vampire king status. This in itself implies that Kaname is prepared to die for his plans. One of the reasons Yuuki is insisting on finding Kaname is to stop Kaname's possible self-destruction and try to salvage co-existance from the damage that Kaname caused (Yuuki's POV).

    What Kaname said himself about his message:

    Kaien to Kaname: (ch 75) ...Yuuki, somewhere deep inside, still believes in you

    Kaname: That’s so like Yuuki...
    Please tell Yuuki – if you tell her this, maybe she’ll realize – tell her I killed Ouri-san. Next one will be Sara Shirabuki.

    What I think Kaname was trying to have Yuuki realize is that he has no intentions of going back to Yuuki and that he might die in pursuit of his plans.

    @ everyone: I started this thread because I know that I do not read the Kaname sections as thoroughly as the Zero sections: Therefore I know I am biased. I would much rather have a Yume input on Kaname's message than my own. I am a fan of Vampire Knight before I am a Zero fan, so I am interested in Kaname's actual intentions with the message and I am not likely to come to that entire truth on my own. I am posting my interpretation of Kaname's intended interpretation with the expectation of having my mind changed.

    @anneliezz, juliet, and nina: I have not thought of the message change as unintentional or unimportant. Thank you guys for pointing it out to me. I personally am undecided about whether Kaien changed the message on purpose, but your guys' interpretations are more likely.

    @sweetsolace
    there are three possibilities: (1) You are right, (2) Someone else is right, (3) Both are wrong
    When you cut and paste your own thoughts that have counterarguments already made against them, you are heavily risking option 2 and option 3: that is the result of insisting on your interpretation without the escape route of changing your mind. This is what is wrong with cutting and pasting without any justification or additional reasoning by you. (I did write that you mentioned Kaien as a possibility in my original response post...but you are still insisting on your one-dimensional interpretation of Zero, and went very far with your cut and paste job on a 50/50 chance, which is what I was objecting to.) I am open to ideas that are not my own. I have admitted to being wrong in the past on this forum.

    @juliet: If Kaname intended on Yuuki protecting Sara, there must be some way of controlling Sara and there would have to be some sort of benefit. Sara is not in love with anyone. To control Sara needs the hand of an ancestor pureblood, i.e. Kaname. The benefit might be the pill technology, but Kaname's methods so far was never overt control over others, or making slaves. That seems to be against Kaname's personal philosophy...Maybe if Sara could become an ally for co-existance? But I am not sure how that is possible.


    Last edited by caela on Sat Nov 12, 2011 5:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Kaname's message

    Post by juliet on Sat Nov 12, 2011 5:33 pm

    If Kaname intended on Yuuki protecting Sara, there must be some way of controlling Sara and there would have to be some sort of benefit. Sara is not in love with anyone. To control Sara needs the hand of an ancestor pureblood, i.e. Kaname. The benefit might be the pill technology, but Kaname's methods so far was never overt control over others, or making slaves. That seems to be against Kaname's personal philosophy...Maybe if Sara could become an ally for co-existance? But I am not sure how that is possible.

    I think that you misunderstood, I did not say that he intends to make Yuuki to believe Sara or to really trust her, just to offer her a real excuse so that Yuuki turns to Sara and say; "here your words have been confirmed by Kaname, therefore now I trust you", because otherwise Yuuki has no excuse to suddenly turn to Sara and say to her that she trusts her, so that Sara can uncover her plans...like a pretended excuse, but as I said its a long shot there....

    most probably Kaname tries to make the worst of himself there, even though that contradicts with the simple notion that probably Zero and also Yuuki can highly suspect his latest lie since they were at the ball and they smelled fresh blood on Sara, Not Kaname..or Kaname does not know or considers that fact that as he smelled Sara probably did others? The "scent" here is a clue that if its to blame it all in Kaname and that lie to pass, has no use, why Hino to persistently show that Zero, Yuuki and Kaname did smell the fresh blood?



    haha I can't decide...






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    Re: Kaname's message

    Post by caela on Sat Nov 12, 2011 6:00 pm

    juliet wrote:
    If Kaname intended on Yuuki protecting Sara, there must be some way of controlling Sara and there would have to be some sort of benefit. Sara is not in love with anyone. To control Sara needs the hand of an ancestor pureblood, i.e. Kaname. The benefit might be the pill technology, but Kaname's methods so far was never overt control over others, or making slaves. That seems to be against Kaname's personal philosophy...Maybe if Sara could become an ally for co-existance? But I am not sure how that is possible.

    I think that you misunderstood, I did not say that he intends to make Yuuki to believe Sara or to really trust her, just to offer her a real excuse so that Yuuki turns to Sara and say; "here your words have been confirmed by Kaname, therefore now I trust you", because otherwise Yuuki has no excuse to suddenly turn to Sara and say to her that she trusts her, so that Sara can uncover her plans...like a pretended excuse, but as I said its a long shot there....

    most probably Kaname tries to make the worst of himself there, even though that contradicts with the simple notion that probably Zero and also Yuuki can highly suspect his latest lie since they were at the ball and they smelled fresh blood on Sara, Not Kaname..or Kaname does not know or considers that fact that as he smelled Sara probably did others? The "scent" here is a clue that if its to blame it all in Kaname and that lie to pass, has no use, why Hino to persistently show that Zero, Yuuki and Kaname did smell the fresh blood?

    haha I can't decide...

    I am not sure of a situation where Sara would fully trust Yuuki, but, if Yuuki is bait (if Sara drinks Yuuki's blood, Sara can now weild an AV weapon), that makes Yuuki a good target. I am not sure what Sara can offer in exchange. Hanadagi's servant can only confirm Hanadagi's killer, or maybe the servant has info on the greatest pureblood crime (which even Takuma's grandfather seemed to be looking down on Kaname for something morally wrong before Takuma came to kill his grandfather, chapter 43)

    http://www.mangareader.net/104-2169-44/vampire-knight/chapter-43.html

    Takuma's grandfather blamed the current state of affairs on Kaname, and Kaname never defended himself (perhaps he had no time, he had to get back to Rido, Yuuki and Zero).

    For the situation to be convincing (Yuuki pretending to be on Sara's side), I am expecting details on the greatest crime in the history of purebloods.

    If Yuuki could lie convincingly enough to show that she would ally herself with Sara, I would be very impressed and in shock over Yuuki's development.

    (I think that Yuuki would have to give her blood to Sara first before Sara trusting Yuuki, and I don't know that Yuuki can hide her thoughts as well as Kaname and Zero)

    But yes, Hanadagi's servant in the closet shows that your guess is a possibility, Juliet.


    about Ouri's death....if Yuuki does not know by now that Ouri was killed by Sara...especially since she was living with Kaname and should be able to tell if he drank other blood recently (i think people in relationships can always at least sense when something important like that has changed)...than my opinion of Yuuki will be affected.
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    Re: Kaname's message

    Post by aya-chan on Sat Nov 12, 2011 6:08 pm

    caela wrote: The only new points you brought up is that (1) both Zero and Kaien are only possible people to have changed the message

    Kaname message to yuuki via kaien:

    Kaname: Please tell Yuuki – if you tell her this, maybe she’ll realize – tell her I killed Ouri-san. Next one will be Sara Shirabuki.

    kaien to yagari when he brought touma

    Spoiler:

    In the next page are these words: Although we don’t know if it’s true or not, we should inform her to be more careful.

    When he - kaien - talked with yagari about kaname's message, kaien did not mention about hanadagi's at all.

    Zero's message to yuuki

    Spoiler:

    In kaname's message to yuuki or kaien talking with yagari, no where hanadagi's name is mentioned, but zero is the one who say it for the first time.

    In my view are 3 possibilities:
    1. it's a mistake from hino
    2. kaien and zero talked about the subject, non-mentioned in scans, kaien exposed his beliefs and zero felt the need to talk with yuuki
    3. zero altered the message intentionaly.

    Zero conveyed to yuuki kaname message the second time when he saw her.
    The first when he told her about president request to see her he did not mention anything. did he not knew about kaname's message? I doubt that Razz

    Spoiler:

    The second time, when yuuki had refused to listen president request zero decide to tell her about kaname's message, an alterated message actually.

    Spoiler:


    If Kaien changed the message, Kaien actually believes both murders was committed by Kaname.

    For now manga doesn't show kaien changing the message, so the guilt falls on zero.

    You mentioned this is on your post:

    (1) Smelled blood on Sara’s breath.

    Zero can rub two brain cells together. He should know that Sara killed Ouri.


    and then you mentioned this:

    if Zero were to change the message, he would try to match the truth value of “Ouri’s death” to any other murders he would blame Kaname for. Otherwise, he risks having the message mistranslated by Yuuki and possible unintended consequences may occur.

    You mentioned that zero brain cells do synapsis and he can suspect sara by ouri's death, but even knowing this, he still decide to tell yuuki a message which "may" *in his pov about ouri's death* contain a lie. moreover he added something extra, hanadagi's death.
    I think it was obvious even for yuuki that kaname was involved in hanadagi's death, so him mentioning that is useless.

    So, the questions are:
    1. why he did not mention kaname's message from the beggining , viz the first time when he had announced her about kaien request?
    2. why did he had alterated the message when yuuki refused president request?

    What are his motives?
    After he conveyed the "half" fake message he wasn't satisfied by yuuki's response, that she has something more important to do. moreover she said she will be a chess piece in kaname's game and stay at the "entrusted place" and after she will go see him. after this, the grab arm had place and yuuki was pissed by that gesture, but decided to hide it under a fake smile.

    No matter what zero tried to obtain saying yuuki half lies, he did not succeed.
    So, sweetsolace arguments that zero to badmouth kaname and to try to change her opinion about kaname are valid, at least until manga will show that kaien changed the message and zero was just a mere messenger, with no ulterior motive behind.
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    Re: Kaname's message

    Post by caela on Sat Nov 12, 2011 6:48 pm

    aya-chan wrote:
    caela wrote: The only new points you brought up is that (1) both Zero and Kaien are only possible people to have changed the message

    Kaname message to yuuki via kaien:

    Kaname: Please tell Yuuki – if you tell her this, maybe she’ll realize – tell her I killed Ouri-san. Next one will be Sara Shirabuki.

    kaien to yagari when he brought touma

    Spoiler:

    In the next page are these words: Although we don’t know if it’s true or not, we should inform her to be more careful.

    When he - kaien - talked with yagari about kaname's message, kaien did not mention about hanadagi's at all.

    Zero's message to yuuki

    Spoiler:

    In kaname's message to yuuki or kaien talking with yagari, no where hanadagi's name is mentioned, but zero is the one who say it for the first time.

    In my view are 3 possibilities:
    1. it's a mistake from hino
    2. kaien and zero talked about the subject, non-mentioned in scans, kaien exposed his beliefs and zero felt the need to talk with yuuki
    3. zero altered the message intentionaly.

    Zero conveyed to yuuki kaname message the second time when he saw her.
    The first when he told her about president request to see her he did not mention anything. did he not knew about kaname's message? I doubt that Razz

    Spoiler:

    The second time, when yuuki had refused to listen president request zero decide to tell her about kaname's message, an alterated message actually.

    Spoiler:


    If Kaien changed the message, Kaien actually believes both murders was committed by Kaname.

    For now manga doesn't show kaien changing the message, so the guilt falls on zero.

    You mentioned this is on your post:

    (1) Smelled blood on Sara’s breath.

    Zero can rub two brain cells together. He should know that Sara killed Ouri.


    and then you mentioned this:

    if Zero were to change the message, he would try to match the truth value of “Ouri’s death” to any other murders he would blame Kaname for. Otherwise, he risks having the message mistranslated by Yuuki and possible unintended consequences may occur.

    You mentioned that zero brain cells do synapsis and he can suspect sara by ouri's death, but even knowing this, he still decide to tell yuuki a message which "may" *in his pov about ouri's death* contain a lie. moreover he added something extra, hanadagi's death.
    I think it was obvious even for yuuki that kaname was involved in hanadagi's death, so him mentioning that is useless.

    So, the questions are:
    1. why he did not mention kaname's message from the beggining , viz the first time when he had announced her about kaien request?
    2. why did he had alterated the message when yuuki refused president request?

    What are his motives?
    After he conveyed the "half" fake message he wasn't satisfied by yuuki's response, that she has something more important to do. moreover she said she will be a chess piece in kaname's game and stay at the "entrusted place" and after she will go see him. after this, the grab arm had place and yuuki was pissed by that gesture, but decided to hide it under a fake smile.

    No matter what zero tried to obtain saying yuuki half lies, he did not succeed.
    So, sweetsolace arguments that zero to badmouth kaname and to try to change her opinion about kaname are valid, at least until manga will show that kaien changed the message and zero was just a mere messenger, with no ulterior motive behind.

    (1) When Kaien is telling Yagari the message, Kaien is only talking about Kaname coming for Sara, and we never see Kaien speaking about Hanadagi or Ouri
    http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/76/14

    so we cannot tell if Kaien had already changed the message or not. So we cannot blame Zero yet based on that.

    Also, adding Yagari to the mix complicates matters further, so now there is a third person with a motive to change the message.

    (2) Why would Zero tell Yuuki the message only the second time? Because she refused to hear the message from the president twice...meaning that she does not want to talk to Cross. The message is from Kaname and it was a weird message either (1) with two murders and of the which Zero should be doubting at least one of them or (2) only Ouri's murder and Zero is not sure Kaname did it and there is more evidence that Sara did it.

    Zero hates all purebloods: why would he just blame Kaname for Ouri when he saw Sara there and smelled blood on her breath? (also, if Zero ranked Kaname or Sara on a hate list, right now I would see Sara was winning because of her taunt towards Zero around chapter 57?) Zero should at least be open to the possibility that Kaname did not kill Ouri.

    (3) Yuuki was living with Kaname at the time: Yuuki would probably know who committed that murder from Zero's point of view. Also she was even closer to Sara at the party than Zero, therefore should have smelled the breath, from Zero's point of view.

    (4) Hanadagi's murder: No one outside of Sara, Kaname and Hanadagi's servant really knows what happened. The best Zero might do is think that Kaname probably did this one, being the only pureblood near the scene as witnessed by Kaien.

    (5) Why would Zero pass along a message that is he would see as a lie or only a part lie? Because Zero suspects the message is a code and might contain important information to Yuuki, the girl he loves.

    (6) If Zero changed the message, why add a most-likely-Sara murder, something Yuuki should definitely be able to say that Kaname did or not (more definitely than Zero anyway) to a murder that no one close to Zero witnessed? That has too many variables, too many possible interpretations by Yuuki.

    I admit that there is no proof of anything, but with probability, if anyone deliberately changed the message, I would put my money on Kaien.

    Note: aya-chan, your spoilers are not working for me, I can't see the images.
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    Re: Kaname's message

    Post by nina on Sat Nov 12, 2011 8:16 pm

    Lol I can’t keep track on you haha …

    sweetsolace wrote: I don't understand where you are going here with this convolution? the topic was about kaname's message that he was going to pass to Yuki thru Kaien, and Kaien or Zero somehow altered the content of the message , by whichever intentions he intends it.

    All this doesn't concern the question of the thread.

    I think you guys are missing the point here or going out of topic. Kaname asked Kaien to DELIVER his message to Yuki and that Kaien somehow , BEHIND THE SCENES, RELAYED the message to Yuki thru Zero, with an additional message. Thats the point of this topic, correct? The Hanadagi info was not included in Kaname's message, but for some reason it was ADDED into his mail by someone. Let's not forget the real discussion here and we're not talking about a broken down guy.

    Not entirely correct neither off topic >>

    caela wrote: We have gone through most of the details of chapter 76 except whether or not Yuuki interpreted Kaname's message correctly.

    What was the correct interpretation that was intended by Kaname?

    Why was there additional information in Zero's version?

    So as you can see there are additional questions from the member who started this thread and not only the different message that Zero passed on Yuuki viz the added name of Hanadagi.

    I don't think you read what I just said here or it matches what you said in another thread if I remember

    its easy to disregard something especially if you don't like what it means for any of them.
    Both have equally reasonable motives to do what they did. and no one can actually explain if its a typo or not hence anyone is right or wrong. an argument can be raised to prove if its valid or not.

    Yes I read it. But I think you didn’t get exactly my point. I’ll just try to rephrase it…

    If Kaien altered the genuine Kaname’s message having in mind to distance Yuuki from Kaname by adding Hanadagi’s name it would be futile or weak or stupid cuz Yuuki was at the same scene where Kaien was i.e. at Hanadagi’s castle. So how he would succeed to convince her further that Kaname is a bad guy with an info that Yuuki already knows and that as we saw (and Kaien also knows) didn’t influence her view? Thus isn’t valid/effective …

    On the other hand … even if I still believe that Zero shouldn’t have passed this message himself to Yuuki but he should have left Cross doing it (he seemed to be anxious to deliver the bad news lol) still from that point to believe that Zero on purpose changed that message there is a distance. Zero hasn’t shown such traits thus far. And in any case also Zero should know by now that Kaien arrested Yuuki from the crime scene … no?

    For me it would be a big surprise if it will be proven next that Zero had such dark motive … it would be so lame …

    Hence I said that for both of them the motive to badmouth Kaname by adding Hanadagi’s name in that message seems to me fruitless cuz >>

    1. Yuuki already knows about it … Kaname indeed killed Hanadagi.
    2. The most powerful passage of Kaname’s wording was that he was the one who killed Ouri and that the next will be Sara << these are the info that could change Yuuki’s views and not Hanadagi’s killing.

    In short I mean they (Zero and Kaien) had a “bomb” into their hands to convince Yuuki why they needed a “water pistol”?

    I’m not disregard the importance of the altered message but this method cuz the result of the alteration would be zero i.e. not so clever and certainly not moral in the end.

    why go back all the way to the party incident, it doesn't make sense. Because clearly until something gets proven it won't become a reality, and Zero had failed to prove that Sara did anything.

    The incident at the soiree was brought initially from caela not me. But anyway since we are exploring the purposes of Kaname’s message as a whole and not only the added name of Hanadagi here ofc the fact that Zero smelt blood on Sara is related with Kaname’s lie about Ouri << which was a part of his message.

    The mailman is indeed responsible for the contents of the message as
    well as its integrity.

    Agreed. If there is a deliberate alteration first was a stupid idea as I explained above and second sure the integrity of the one who altered the message goes down the drain.

    He knows Touma had been punished by Kaname before, and although Zero knew it he didn't tell so Kaien doesn't know.

    Actually Kaien knows that Kaname punished Touma cuz he attacked to Yuuki>>

    Kaien: “Kiryu kun who was Touma fighting with?”
    Zero: “Yuuki Kuran.”
    http://www.mangareader.net/104-57815-16/vampire-knight/chapter-65.html
    http://www.mangareader.net/104-57815-17/vampire-knight/chapter-65.html

    I don't think its rocket science to see that there were leftover remains of DUST /crystal over Hanadagi's? And the open tomb? Hello?! its obvious that they know Hanadagi was killed by the same person (Kaname) that killed Nagamichi, being the only murderer found on the scene and possibly the only witness potentially there was missing (guardian lady). So the killer can "only be" Kaname.

    Hence the reinforcement of an idea she might potentially have already known. Exactly. She might have known it already. Exactly because she was there together with Kaien on the crime scene when it happened. The bottom line: Kaien was there with Yuki so he knows what she knows---whats the point repeating what she already knew, the point that "Kaname killed Hanadagi"?

    This ^^^ was also my point previously >>
    Right … Kaien believes that Kaname killed Hanadagi and he believes that because he was ONE of the witnesses at Hanadagi’s castle. The other witnesses were Yuuki and Hanabusa. Did Kaien saw something more than the others?
    No … he saw exactly what Yuuki saw as well. So what’s the purpose to add Hanadagi’s name in Kaname’s message? The only new info was Ouri’s killing not Hanadagi’s not even Hio’s … Yuuki knew about those already and haven’t changed her heart.


    What I’m trying to say here is that even if Kaien’s motive was to persuade further Yuuki about Kaname’s killings in order to be more disappointed from Kaname, Hanadagi’s death can’t change Yuuki’s views. She didn’t change her mind/trust in Kaname despite that she saw with her own eyes the killing of Aido-dono and the death of Hanadagi would make the difference?


    >> so I don’t know where your difference is!? scratch >>

    So how does this fit with Zero's motives and Kaien's motives? which is more reasonable and not?

    I didn’t take side who from both of them had more reasonable motive. In fact I was trying to prove ONLY that Kaien had doubts about Kaname’s plans because ceala said >>
    caela wrote: Your entire argument is based on the possibility that Zero changed the message due to motive and means. All I have to show is that Cross changed the message.

    >> and she tried to do that by showing that Kaien has no doubt about Kaname’s intention to kill all the PBs…

    Juliet wrote: and all these reasons that you offer here, make me also think that perhaps the intention was not to persuade Yuuki but to offer her lets say an excuse that it comes out of his lips so that she can show trust to Sara? even for a little while? scratch I know that the opposition here says but are you expecting Yuuki to grasp that message? As I said its a long-long shot...but on the other hand didn't Yuuki already stated that she will follow his game in a way? like accepting that "yes for the time being that's what I must show that I believe?"

    Haha I was one of the oppositional Razz … Yes I had my reservations if Yuuki was capable to see through his lie but I think she saw. So you were right!

    Also there is the possibility that the purpose of his message to be different between Yuuki and the others … I mean perhaps for Yuuki wanted to stay at the academy and for the hunters to affirm their wish that he indeed plans to annihilate all the PBs >> i.e. dual scopes with one message … scratch

    caela wrote: @nina: my only disagreement is that whether or not Zero reported smelling fresh blood on Sara's breath (which I see no reason why he would keep that information to himself),

    I didn’t state it as fact that Zero didn’t report back that he smelt fresh blood on Sara. But also there is no signs that he reported too … Actually we don’t have yet the reaction of the hunters about Kaname’s message concerning Ouri’s murder so we shall see.

    Also, Kaien was set-up by Kaname to kill Touma and that in itself shocked Kaien into believing in the possibility that Kaname is serious about pureblood extermination.

    Kaien’s doubts as I provided in my previous post came AFTER the incident with Touma. Also Kaien should know that if Kaname really wanted to kill Touma then he could have taken his heart in order ANY blow from Kaien’s sword to be fatal.
    So that alone should have created doubts in Kaien’s mind about Kaname's true intentions >> he left Touma alive into Kaien’s “protective” hands >> what this signifies?

    (The translations you gave are from the S2S scans I believe...and I have been having discrepancy problems with them....missing words and the like, so I am willing to leave most of my points in the air until I get better translations or more time to look at the raws. I'm also having problems with the IEM scans. And not just with chapter 74.)

    The passages that I brought >>
    1. “Kaname kun you are seriously planning to extinguish all the PBs … except Yuuki. OR ELSE … (chapter 75)
    2. “He said Shirabuki is the next one … I should tell her to protect herself no matter if it’s TRUE or NOT.” (chapter 76)

    3. Kaito: “I don’t know that guy’s purpose and how FAR will he wield that hunter’s sword and remain calm but without doubt, you (Yuuki) will not be extinguished.” (chapter 75)

    >> as for chapter 75 are from reliable source so I’m pretty confident about the context. As for the portion of chapter 76 >> “He said Shirabuki is the next one … I should tell her to protect herself no matter if it’s TRUE or NOT.” … it was you who first mention it previously >>

    caela wrote: Kaien: (chapter 76) [Kaname] said the next one would be Sara Shirabuki. Although we don’t know if it’s true or not, we should inform her to be more careful.

    As you can see there are two sources that coincide on Kaien’s doubts. Also you can’t disregard only the parts that it’s not suitable.





    "... I want to fall down with you to the very farthest depths ... taint me too Kaname"



    Spoiler:

    *wants to sneak under these bed sheets*
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    Re: Kaname's message

    Post by Knightmare on Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:48 pm

    if we're taking votes, I vote it was a typo, either it was missing in the first place or accidentally added in the 2nd place.

    hanadagi's death is old news, aside from the witness stuff you talk about, everyone already blamed kaname since chapter 69, it was big gossip. why bother bringing it up again now? why not also throw in Hio too.

    Kaname said to "Tell her that I also killed Ouri-dono" (that seemed to have been dropped out of the translations, the "too" part. So Kaien could have assumed Kaname wanted the Hanadagi bit mentioned.

    Actually, its probably not all that important. Zero wasn't supposed to be the messenger here, so Kaien wouldn't have given him specific instructions on what to tell Yuuki and just spoke about what he wanted to talk to Yuuki about. either its a typo of its a case of chinese whispers if you ask me.

    basically the goal is for kaname to ruin yuuki's faith in him, i don't think anyone has any malicous intentions.
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    Re: Kaname's message

    Post by mariangie on Sun Nov 13, 2011 7:58 am

    Last chapters have proof of these important issues :

    " YUUKI BELIEVES IN KANAME NO MATTER WHAT . "


    " YUUKI EVENTUALLY WILL LOOK FOR KANAME . "


    No matter which messages she had received about Kaname's actions . These are issues Yuuki had stated as facts during the recent plot .

    The important things about Zero's message to Yuuki about what Kaname wanted Yuuki to hear are :

    -----Kaname wants to be seen as a liar by Yuuki .

    Kaname send Yuuki a message with an obvious lie . He said he killed Ouri . The story had told several times , purebloods have more potent senses than other vampires . A pureblood could smell / sense another pureblood for a long distance . Probably many miles . Also it had said , humans and vampires scent are different . More , a vampire or hunter could know which is the level of a vampire just by smell . When Ouri died . Yuuki could smell Ouri's blood . He was in a different room than Yuuki's . Very far from each other . Yuuki also smelled Ouri's blood from Sara's .

    The problem here was Sara was Ouri's fiancee . What this means ? Sara had a perfect cover to explain why she smelled with Ouri's blood . Purebloods trying to avoid turning humans to vampires and with another pureblood mate / fiancee just drink from each other to satisfy their blood needs . Sara only needs to explain to hunters she had a quick fix of her fiancee's blood during the ball . Nodody would doubt her version . No even Zero or Cross . Hunters could suspect Sara as one of the only two probable pureblood vampire present in the ball who could have kill Ouri . The other was Kaname . Yuuki could easily being took out from the short list by the hunters . As she was always in the spot of the ball attendances . Yuuki was never alone during the ball . Including Zero , Aido and Yori as witness of Yuuki's whereabouts . But they didn't have any hard evidence to incriminate Sara .

    But Yuuki could be the only person in the ball , except for Kaname to have actual proof of Sara's involvement in Ouri's killing . As Yuuki had drank from Kaname's blood in a direct way . She could easily discovered if Kaname had any Ouri's blood inside his body . Or smelled Ouri's blood from Kaname's body . Yuuki had not noticed any of this . So Yuuki most probably could identify Kaname lying when telling her " he killed Ouri " .


    -----Kaname wants to get Yuuki as far from him as he could .
    This part I suspect have a relation to Kaname's nightmare about Yuuki's dying by Rido' hands . I think this was not a real nightmare . But Kaname's vision / premonition of the future .

    The obvious message that Kaname sent to Yuuki is to be as far as she can from him . Because if she got involved in Kaname's activities ; she could be harm . Even die . But Kaname didn't want to say Yuuki the complete reasons to he wanting Yuuki far from him . This could be that Kaname suspecting his bond to Rido could endanguer Yuuki . As Rido wants to recover his whole body . Requiring a lot of Kuran's blood for this .


    ------Kaname wants Yuuki to stay in care of the hunters / at Cross Academy grounds .
    Kaname is sending the message he is danguerous to all purebloods . So he is basically ordering Yuuki to continue in a safe place . Where more safe than being in the Headquarter's of the people who acted as " vampire police " . Or in neutral ground as Cross Academy . Where vampires are supposed to supress their instints and act " civilized " in a controlled scenario .


    -----Kaname wanted Yuuki to mistrust Sara .
    If Kaname is implying in his message to Yuuki's he is lying . He is hinting Yuuki Sara is the real responsable of killing Ouri . Then Kaname is suggesting Yuuki to beware of Sara as the logical conclusion of his message .

    Kaname is being considered a danguerous fugitive . A pureblood killing the rest of purebloods for unknow reasons . This is how the Hunters see the situation . In general a situation in their favor . As if all purebloods are killed , there are no way to turn any more humans to vampires . Hunter's best dream come true .

    But Kaname had to know at least part of what Sara is planning . Kaname needs to alert Yuuki about how danguerous Sara is . Without alerting the hunters nor Sara that he knows . Nor he could get near Yuuki for the time being . So for Kaname the best action is to give a hidden message to Yuuki . Inside of a message most people could not discover the real message from the original one .

    Yuuki has never being a very smart girl . But she probably could get the hidden message from Kaname to her . Confirming her trust in Kaname not being the " worst pureblood vampire monster alive " . Of course she wants answers . Why Kaname is acting as he is . Why he left her without any explanation . But this message just gave Yuuki a little clue of Kaname's actions are not exactly as he is trying to show . That he is lying for a reason Yuuki needs to find .

    ****About Zero grabbing Yuuki's hand .

    Yuuki told Zero she continues to believe in Kaname . She also confirm Zero she will indeed look for Kaname for answers as soon she can . Even after Zero told her Kaname's message . The one Zero assumes is Kaname's confession as a killer . Revealing Kaname's next move . This has to be a shock to Zero . As Zero probably can't understand why Yuuki continues to trust that man . A man that no matter is Yuuki's " brother " ( Remember Zero thinks Kaname is Yuuki's brother . ) and her fiancee / mate ; is behaving as a serial killer . Who is breaking the delicate balance of Vampire Society . A danguerous criminal to his own people . Zero grabbing Yuuki's arm is a mix of Zero's desire to prevent Yuuki to go to look for Kaname and jeaously of her feelings for Kaname . As no matter what Yuuki is told about Kaname . She continues saying the exact same things to Zero . Zero had the need to stop Yuuki from taking a choice Zero thinks it could harm her more . Zero real feelings are love for Yuuki . Zero's desire to protect her is very important to him . Mixed with his desire to took Yuuki away from Kaname .

    ********************************************

    About Hanadagi death inclusion in Zero's message

    I don't know by know why Zero appears to have add Hanadagi death in his message to Yuuki . As some mentioned before . There were only 3 alive witness to what happened to Hanadagi : Kaname , Sara and Hanadagi's bodyguard / guardian . Most people just assume here Kaname was the only involved in the death of Hanadagi . This includes all the hunters , Zero and Yuuki . The only witness who could say the complete truth here ( the only actual alive witness of all the events before , during and after Hanadagi's death )is Hanadagi's guardian . And she is being held captive by Sara . So Sara knows that woman could spoil her plans if talks . This has to be a reason ( if not the main reason ) for Sara making Hanadagi's bodyguard her prisioner . For Sara avoiding that woman exposing his need to increase her own powers for whatever her plans are to become Queen . As Sara took Hanadagi's heart as power - up .

    In reality , adding Hanadagi to the message don't change anything . Both the messenger ( Zero )and the one intended the message ( Yuuki ) " knew " the same information about this incident .
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    Re: Kaname's message

    Post by Interferer on Sun Nov 13, 2011 9:19 am

    Knightmare wrote:if we're taking votes, I vote it was a typo, either it was missing in the first place or accidentally added in the 2nd place.

    hanadagi's death is old news, aside from the witness stuff you talk about, everyone already blamed kaname since chapter 69, it was big gossip. why bother bringing it up again now? why not also throw in Hio too.translations, the "too" part. So Kaien could have assumed Kaname wanted the Hanadagi bit mentioned.


    Kaname said to "Tell her that I also killed Ouri-dono" (that seemed to have been dropped out of the
    Actually, its probably not all that important. Zero wasn't supposed to be the messenger here, so Kaien wouldn't have given him specific instructions on what to tell Yuuki and just spoke about what he wanted to talk to Yuuki about. either its a typo of its a case of chinese whispers if you ask me.

    basically the goal is for kaname to ruin yuuki's faith in him, i don't think anyone has any malicous intentions.

    brilliant this post, I love it! cheers cheers I agree a lot with you, you are so right about this. I mean, I don't even understand what this gays are talking about... I'm getting a headache... Can someone pleeeeeeeaaaaaasee summarized for me? And btw

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