The ancestor theories

First topic message reminder :

What are your theories about Kaname's ancestor past? Is he running out of guilts about something?

I think Kaname was first Vampire King for a long while . Because he was most probably the grandfather Vampire King Juuri was talking during the bonus story about the umbrella incident .

But , yes , there are a lot of Kaname's past we had no idea yet . Things as simple which was the hooded female pureblood name . The composition of Kuran's generational tree . Or complicated as which are Kaname's original plans .

I think the reason of keeping so many misteries yet is because of the story not wanting to reveal yet who was Kaname's wife and Queen in the past ( not the hooded female pureblood lady ). The one which was the mother of Yuuki's grandparents . The woman I believe died prior to the scene Kaname was shown to be grieving over a broken mirror at the Kuran's manor . The reason of Kaname's despair . The reason of he wanting vengance . The reason of his slumber . The Vampire Queen , which during the story was never shown , nor mentioned .

Yuuki traveling to the past . Knowing Kaname there . Becoming her mate in the past . And her being her own ancestress could be a possibility . The complicated thing here is when did Yuuki traveled to the past . She became Kaname's wife and Queen . Had kids with him . Then somehow , she died there . Then Kaname waited in a slumber . Hoping to met her again when she was born . In the present , they found them again . But Yuuki didn't know their past . How Kaname could avoid losing Yuuki for second time ? How the story could end ? This could make some time loops difficult to explain . Also this excludes Zero as Yuuki's possible lover . Because she always was Kaname's . The other thing is Kaname hiding his plans due to being related to Yuuki's past .

Another possibility I consider is Kaname's wife and Queen from the past was his own daugther . Maybe he and the hooded pureblood vampire lady had a baby girl prior to her sacrificing to create the weapons and hunters . Maybe a woman who looks like Yuuki , but with gray eyes ( as a picture I saw somewhere , but I can't remember where ) . I can't get out from my head what was the original reason for the Kuran's to practice incest . I imagine Kaname was the first to do so . If Kaname's wife from the past was his daugther , she was the one to die prior his despair scene . But Kaname meting Yuuki during his past had to happen . The question here is when they met . If was before or after Kaname's wife death .

I think Kaname was first Vampire King for a long while . Because he was most probably the grandfather Vampire King Juuri was talking during the bonus story about the umbrella incident.

Yes Yuuri's grandfather was a King and a ruler and we nerver learned what happened to him (not even Yuuri's father who left the monarchy and made the council). It's interesting because Kurans due to the anti-vampire power are supposed to be more resistant than other vampires, so since Rido was not around, what could have killed them and their mates? hunters?

I think the reason of keeping so many misteries yet is because of the story not wanting to reveal yet who was Kaname's wife and Queen in the past ( not the hooded female pureblood lady ). The one which was the mother of Yuuki's grandparents . The woman I believe died prior to the scene Kaname was shown to be grieving over a broken mirror at the Kuran's manor . The reason of Kaname's despair . The reason of he wanting vengance . The reason of his slumber . The Vampire Queen , which during the story was never shown , nor mentioned .

But , yes , there are a lot of Kaname's past we had no idea yet . Things as simple which was the hooded female pureblood name . The composition of Kuran's generational tree . Or complicated as which are Kaname's original plans .

I agree that Hino has not shown to be slopy with her script, she puts their a vail in purpose, like she passes from hunter's creation to Kaname's slumber without providing any more clues even through Kaname's narration, the clues are prodived in a very laconic way and there must be a good reason for it, since it is Hino that gives us the page with the mirror in the Kuran mansion, generating a gap that until now is not justified by the script.

Yuuki traveling to the past . Knowing Kaname there . Becoming her mate in the past . And her being her own ancestress could be a possibility . The complicated thing here is when did Yuuki traveled to the past.

About Yuuki's travel to the past I have a theory but is a very loony and distant one...LOL but for the fun of the discussion I shall share it no matter how stupid it may sound.

Well this theory begins by the fact that during Yuuki's sleep I find it strange that she affected Kaname's memories. To tell you the truth I consider it impossible since she was in a deep sleep and she was just travelling into his memories through the blood she had taken. If she could affect his memories then it would be troubling; all the past could change in this way.

Anyway so I think that she might be there in the real time. Not being a premonition but an existing pureblood that was there, witnessing the scene and following kaname outside. But since we are seeing it from Yuuki's POV we can't really see her as she was as we could not see Kaname a chapter ago and we saw Yuuki experiencing his life through her own body.

Confusing...but why did Hino use this trick by changing the person we see in the first place? Just to say that Yuuki can feel more the angst Kaname went through viewing herself at his shoes? or she hiding something more with this trick? perhaps Yuuki's late real appearance?

But now Yuuki could be back there and later dissapear...

http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-64-page-21.html

Yuuki says Artemis...to where? Kaname had made her a question; what's your name? Can the two answers (yuuki ancestor-yuuki real) overlap with each other?
Could be...
What about the crashed mirror under Yuuki's feet how is it transfered from Yuuki's current location in the Kuran mansion years later (I suppose)? It makes no sense unless the broken mirror does not exist at all. It is a trick as well in Kaname's mind, a clue that represents the truth, bonding Yuuki's appearance there with Kaname's despair that we see later in the collapsed mansion.

I can't get out from my head what was the original reason for the Kuran's to practice incest . I imagine Kaname was the first to do so . If Kaname's wife from the past was his daugther , she was the one to die prior his despair scene . But Kaname meting Yuuki during his past had to happen . The question here is when they met . If was before or after Kaname's wife death .

I hope you are wrong in this one because I can't imagine the bashing Kaname is going to take for that and yes this is finction but I hope that Hino does not drag this so far. After all to have a daughter he must have a wife first...but Hino does not give us the ancestor lady as a maternal figure more like a commander...not to mention that I did not like her approach at all .

juliet wrote:
Here is the scene where the ancestor dies in the furnace surrounded by the hunters. Kaname's clothes are black...
http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-64-page-12.html

Chapter 52, Yuuki drinks from Kaname and Kaname remembers his past...



WE know that its his ancestor time due the clothes but certainly is not the time when the ancestor dies.
We've never seen before the Kuran mansion, yet we see it now with the Kuran crest at the door...this leads me to assume that these scene here can be years after the death of the ancestor, the walls around him have fallen, probably shattered by Kaname's agony, he is grieving someone.

So to whom does these crystals belong to? And what's the importancy of the mirror?

A mirror it appears again in chapter 64 in the middle of nowhere when kaname is able to see...Yuuki. Yuuki steps on him cracking him... (take notice that in Kaname's flashback, chapter 52 the mirror is also shattered).

What is again the importancy of the mirror in the middle of nowhere?



And finally



why do we see Yuuki's -Kaname's reflection in the mirror instead of seeing them? Yuuki's extended hand points to the mirror which has a cracked corner.

Any ideas or theories about mirrors and ancestors? Why is Hino giving us these kind of hints?

nice observation juliet I was thinking the same thing, somewhat... So I will borrow some of these theories and try to piece it together it will repeat some of what you said hope you don't mind......

also notice that Kaname's clothes in chapter 52 (the flashback) is the same with the one shown in Yuki's time travel. It's the same with the forearm having a badge of some sort (a black line drawn across, with a logo in the middle)

Spoiler:

So.... around the time Yuki travelled... could it be that she was in the middle of war with the humans and vampires as indicated by this

Spoiler:

in that flashback of kaname we see his thoughts saying, "by the time i realized.. i was completely alone" surrounded by rubble and wearing the same clothes in chapter64... what could possibly happened there? it seems like that happened after the war considering the damage around the place. And moreover, Kaname looks like he's mourning and kneeling down, looking at a shattered mirror and clasping the pieces... or is that mirror pieces ? or crystal shards from when a pureblood dies and breaks??
if its mirror shards it would look sharper and irregular pieces, but the cuts look more similar with the remains of a pureblood after breaking:

Spoiler:

Also look at the place... he is in front of a door with a Kuran sign. it looks like the entrance of a mansion or the door leading to the great hall inside a castle... Im betting more its the entrance of a great hall because of the poles on the sides look like they're part of a collapsed column. If this is true, then we see the image here slightly..

Kaname, looking like he lost someone/something, thinking he was "completely alone by the time he realized", as he looks at the mirror and grabbing some pureblood remains who just died...in front of a place that is probably his own castle...

my theory: he lost someone and that's his wife..
possible assumption for the wife:
chapter60

Spoiler:

that hair looks like yuki's style... but it's not yuki since we never saw her wearing a hood... yeah and this woman is also wearing a hood like the hooded woman. in Kaname's flashbacks purebloods are seen to be wearing long hoods.. so could it be possible that this woman is a pureblood? and why is she seen along yuki's comparison? probably she's the person kaname's talking about that he lost...and he developed his "contradictions" with yuki because of her???? Kaname's wife?

he lost her.... and he was about to make an initial "decision" (ch43--his original plan??) as revenge for the woman's death but he held it back... and instead he went to sleep... but when he woke up everything's still the same. The vampire government is still the same despite having been changed from monarchy>senate rule.

Anyway I get the feeling we'll get a thorough explanation for this soon.

About the mirror as time travel device..
it's possible. hino seems like she likes to use this plot device in her mangas . Also, when Yuki travelled back in time she stepped on the mirror first right? then Kaname noticed her? could it be it was the object that made her materialize in front of Kaname as ancestor? because before that when she was with the woman, the woman saw her as if she was kaname....not as Yuki. Then after that it was kaname who was seeing her as Yuki from the future after she stepped on the mirror and broke it. Ah this is confusing.. both mirror references were seen to have been broken... i wonder if this means something.

Also it seems that Kaname was aware when he saw yuki from the future he had a "vision"???

Spoiler:

he also says
"one less person... one less person again..."
why does he say "again", maybe he lost not only the hooded woman???

he also says his only ally was only himself... and after such a long time his heart was exhausted that's why he slept... "heart"... probably it's his heart that loved and cared for the people he treasured, and yet they keep dying again and again..... so when he woke up again and saw Yuki, he recognized the warmth in her eyes and he was determined to protect it......

(mmm so sad Kaname-chama!!) '

ok but we're not done yet... another mystery...

The Mysterious Figure And The Sands
the figure in the sands on a crescent moon night (chapter43):

Spoiler:

another figure on the sands (ch60):

Spoiler:

the "war" between humans and vampire happened on a desert on a crescent moon night (chapter64):

Spoiler:

so...who is the mysterious figure wearing that tattered cloak????

Kaname's ancestor memories at beginning stage of being recalled, he remembers the nostalgic feeling of sand, so it's definitely part of the significant events in his life as ancestor (chapter48):

Spoiler:

there's another flashback in the earlier chapters showing flashback of the war but nothing too drastic, and I can't find it yet so anyway this is what's important...

ahh so many theories... :bom: :bom: :bom:

Interesting ... very interesting girls!


My theory of Kaname’s past life.

As we know so far all the ancestors came from humans. The hooded woman said she loved her parents and wanted to protect them cuz they were fragile beings.
So it’s safe to assume that Kaname had a human family as well, but by the time he met the hooded woman he was all alone for many many years so he had forgot his own name.
http://www.mangareader.net/104-54910-22/vampire-knight/chapter-62.html

http://www.mangareader.net/104-54910-24/vampire-knight/chapter-62.html

Two scenarios I could think:
a) He was chased out from his family due to his nature and isolates himself wandering around without purpose … or
b) his family was already passed away cuz they were humans and again Kaname started his roaming.

Then he met for the first time the hooded woman, she named him Kaname and invited him to go with them to search for others of their kind (ancestors), but he didn’t.

http://www.mangareader.net/104-54910-24/vampire-knight/chapter-62.html

He chose to stay in a village among humans and helped them, until they figured his different nature and cast him away as a monster.

http://www.mangareader.net/104-54910-26/vampire-knight/chapter-62.html
http://www.mangareader.net/104-54910-27/vampire-knight/chapter-62.html

I have the feeling that all these experiences made Kaname to have difficulties to accept his nature … hooded lady’s words for Kaname(?) … “why I was born this way?...”

http://www.mangareader.net/104-57201-10/vampire-knight/chapter-64.html

Anyway they met again and this time he went with her

http://www.mangareader.net/104-54910-28/vampire-knight/chapter-62.html
http://www.mangareader.net/104-54910-31/vampire-knight/chapter-62.html

She “saved” him, gave him her blood and asked him to “lend his power”

http://www.mangareader.net/104-54910-31/vampire-knight/chapter-62.html

Then Kaname started the project to find a way to help humans, the anti-vampire weapons were born etc etc.

My impression is that Kaname and the ancestor lady didn’t have so close relationship. Perhaps they didn’t have the time for it, before she sacrificed her self.

http://www.mangareader.net/104-56087-21/vampire-knight/chapter-63.html

http://www.mangareader.net/104-57201-12/vampire-knight/chapter-64.html

“ The moment a small attachment was born inside me” … she sacrifice herself …

So I suppose they didn’t develop deep romantic feelings and that’s why I believe she wasn’t the female ancestor of Kurans lineage.

He felt an “obligation” towards her and decides to lead the war/wars (?), until we saw him overwhelmed in despair all alone, crying out of the door with the Kurans emblem above a shattered mirror.
http://www.mangareader.net/104-19604-23/vampire-knight/chapter-52.html

http://www.mangareader.net/104-19604-24/vampire-knight/chapter-52.html

sweetsolace wrote: Also look at the place... he is in front of a door with a Kuran sign. it looks like the entrance of a mansion or the door leading to the great hall inside a castle... Im betting more its the entrance of a great hall because of the poles on the sides look like they're part of a collapsed column.

I think is the same door which leads to mausoleum where Kaname laid for many many ages.

http://www.mangareader.net/104-19604-25/vampire-knight/chapter-52.html
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2179-24/vampire-knight/chapter-51.html
http://www.mangareader.net/104-52342-17/vampire-knight/chapter-61.html

The same emblem is on Kaname’s grave …

http://www.mangareader.net/104-47679-29/vampire-knight/chapter-58.html

In fact I think the side of the door with the emblem is the exterior side whereas the inside hasn’t the emblem … here …

http://www.mangareader.net/104-54910-6/vampire-knight/chapter-62.html
http://www.mangareader.net/104-54910-8/vampire-knight/chapter-62.html

sweetsolace wrote: my theory: he lost someone and that's his wife..
possible assumption for the wife:
chapter60

that hair looks like yuki's style... but it's not yuki since we never saw her wearing a hood... yeah and this woman is also wearing a hood like the hooded woman. in Kaname's flashbacks purebloods are seen to be wearing long hoods.. so could it be possible that this woman is a pureblood? and why is she seen along yuki's comparison? probably she's the person kaname's talking about that he lost...and he developed his "contradictions" with yuki because of her???? Kaname's wife?

I agree …
Also my hunch is that the source of his despair was another woman and the loss of her made him go to slumber, along with the idea that nothing really can change in vampire’s society and nature. So exhausted and hopeless chose an eternal sleep, putting on hiatus his original plan …

http://www.mangareader.net/104-57201-27/vampire-knight/chapter-64.html


But what relation has Yuuki with the hooded woman in this pic?

http://www.mangareader.net/104-51058-5/vampire-knight/chapter-60.html

A reasonable answer is that the hooded woman is the ancestor and Kaname is connecting her with Yuuki and his fears of losing her as it happened before, but as I said I have doubts.

Here a close image of the ancestor lady … she had braids lol.

http://www.mangareader.net/104-57201-9/vampire-knight/chapter-64.html

Furthermore as both of you said there are all these mysterious scenes with Kaname-ancestor, Yuuki from the future and the mirrors!
The first time she tried to commune with Kaname while traveling in his memory, is here …
http://www.mangareader.net/104-57201-13/vampire-knight/chapter-64.html
http://www.mangareader.net/104-57201-14/vampire-knight/chapter-64.html

While she yelled him he couldn’t hear her and also he couldn’t see her cuz she passes through him. There Kaname is making the anti-vampire weapons, after ancestor’s death.

What changed on the second time and Kaname was able to see and hear Yuuki?

http://www.mangareader.net/104-57201-20/vampire-knight/chapter-64.html

As juliet and sweetsolace pointed out here Kaname is in the middle of nowhere (a battle field?) with different outfit and maybe many years after ancestor’s death.

Is the mirror playing a role to the fact Kaname can now see her?

http://www.mangareader.net/104-57201-21/vampire-knight/chapter-64.html

He calls her “young vampire miss”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-57201-24/vampire-knight/chapter-64.html

… and when was asked about he said he was talking with a girl, but as a premonition he has OFTEN … a vision of the future.

http://www.mangareader.net/104-57201-26/vampire-knight/chapter-64.html

Why he assumed she was from the future? Probably because of her outfit? If so that means he saw her exactly the way she is now. But why he had often such visions?

Anyway my theory is that Yuuki is connected somehow (?) with the woman who was Kaname’s mate in the past … the one who started the Kuran’s clan with (?). Cuz somehow he must have had children lol. In short I think he met with Yuuki in the past, he lost her and when he saw her eyes as a baby he felt as he had seen those eyes somewhere before (at that time he didn’t remember his past … at least not the whole of his past).

http://www.mangareader.net/104-57201-28/vampire-knight/chapter-64.html

Another point which made me think that Yuuki and Kaname were related in the past is the fact that we don’t know anything about the female Kuran’s progenitor. Why so much mystery about it. Also Juri always referred to her grandfather … where was the woman … the grandmother or great grandmother in their family?
Maybe the connection between Yuuki and Kaname’s wife is the big bang in the VK lol.

About the mysterious figures on the sand:

I think in the most of them is Kaname but we have seen Yuuki (?) at a similar landscape with sand holding a flag in the opening theme of the anime if I recall well.

Intresting thery about kaname having a wife that looks just like yuki. I am looking forward and hopeing it is true.

As for the thing about him being all alone, there is a chance that the bloody rose is the cause of that, we have seen that it is a particuly nasty av weapon, when zero used it on the roof of cross academy it seemed to attack all the vampires there except yuki, even the night class vampires which dodged the vines. So if kaname did lose control of the bloody rose and it ended up killing his wife at the time then that is most defently a reason to dispair and a reason to go into an eternal slumber. If I killed the women I loved I wouldn't want to live anymore ether.

It would also explain some thing else, and thats why kaname isn't useing the bloodyrose, I dont know about you but I would prefer a gun over a sword anyday.

Who was Yuuki's great - grandmother , Kaname's past wife and Queen and what happened to her are one of the greatest mysteries in V. K. The knowledge of this information would probably plays a huge part for explaining Kaname's recent actions .

A interesting thing is : the picture of chapter 60 showing a Yuuki - alike woman with a hood , with her eyes covered presented at this forum was not the final pic for the tambukon version . At the book version , the picture of that girl was darkened and make blurried . Making difficult to see if tha hooded girl looks like Yuuki . Why Hino changed this scene ? Maybe she was showing a lot more information that she intended . ?????? If that girl was really Kaname's past wife ( and I thought since originally seen that scene she was ) ; why she looks so much as Yuuki ??????

If the girl is really Yuuki that travelled to the past . Ended staying there . Married Kaname and had offsprings with him is a consideration for explaining why the hooded girl of chapter 60 looks like Yuuki . The problem I see is there are too many plot holes to evidence this . Also , If that girl died before the scene of Kaname crying over the mirror , could be a way to prevent this to happen at the present ??????????? If that girl was Yuuki , discovers the truth and she could change the past ; will all the present events in V .K . would change also ????????? I think Hino would have a lot to explain if Yuuki was the past wife of Kaname because she traveled in time to the past .

I know it sound weird . Maybe I'm wrong . But if that girl is a Yuuki - alike with clear color eyes , the only explanation I can imagine for now is she was a daughter of Kaname with the hooded pureblood ancestress with braids . If she was Kaname's daughter and he make her his wife , it explain why only some Kurans could yield anti - vampire weapons . And the origin of Kuran's interbreeding .

I like to know why Kaname chose an eternal slumber instead of killing himself after his moment of great despair . I can imagine somehow he had to keep a little hope for something . Maybe he saw Yuuki in the past prior to his choice ???? Somehow he knew could meet her in his future ???????

eternal slumber is the same as killing your self, and killing your self as a pb is not an easy task, first you need to be injured with a av weapon, then you need to have your heart removed and your blood drained. Dureing all that you have to deal with the hunger that the lack of blood brings on.

Long story short, kaname was to lazy to kill him self lol

rumland wrote: As for the thing about him being all alone, there is a chance that the bloody rose is the cause of that, we have seen that it is a particuly nasty av weapon, when zero used it on the roof of cross academy it seemed to attack all the vampires there except yuki, even the night class vampires which dodged the vines. So if kaname did lose control of the bloody rose and it ended up killing his wife at the time then that is most defently a reason to dispair and a reason to go into an eternal slumber. If I killed the women I loved I wouldn't want to live anymore ether.

Oh! That could also explain the name of that weapon … Bloody Rose. But it’s so so sooooooo tragic … I can’t even start imagine it …

mariangie wrote: A interesting thing is : the picture of chapter 60 showing a Yuuki - alike woman with a hood , with her eyes covered presented at this forum was not the final pic for the tambukon version . At the book version , the picture of that girl was darkened and make blurried . Making difficult to see if tha hooded girl looks like Yuuki . Why Hino changed this scene ? Maybe she was showing a lot more information that she intended . ?????? If that girl was really Kaname's past wife ( and I thought since originally seen that scene she was ) ; why she looks so much as Yuuki ??????

Interesting observation !!!

mariangie wrote: If the girl is really Yuuki that travelled to the past . Ended staying there . Married Kaname and had offsprings with him is a consideration for explaining why the hooded girl of chapter 60 looks like Yuuki . The problem I see is there are too many plot holes to evidence this . Also , If that girl died before the scene of Kaname crying over the mirror , could be a way to prevent this to happen at the present ??????????? If that girl was Yuuki , discovers the truth and she could change the past ; will all the present events in V .K . would change also ????????? I think Hino would have a lot to explain if Yuuki was the past wife of Kaname because she traveled in time to the past .

Good point!
But she “travelled” in the past and named the weapon Artemis … in a way she influenced the history!

The “key” is why Kaname saw and heard her? Also in which form he saw her? The vision was from the near future >>> he saw her as a hooded girl (ch. 60 icon?) or from the distant future as Yuuki with the school uniform????

mariangie wrote: I know it sound weird . Maybe I'm wrong . But if that girl is a Yuuki - alike with clear color eyes , the only explanation I can imagine for now is she was a daughter of Kaname with the hooded pureblood ancestress with braids . If she was Kaname's daughter and he make her his wife , it explain why only some Kurans could yield anti - vampire weapons . And the origin of Kuran's interbreeding .

First of I’d like to state that I don’t like the idea Kaname fell in love with his own daughter so my view is bias lol.

Furthermore I doubt if Hino will “stretch” so much the “incest” issue … Yuuki is clearly not Kaname’s sister but lots of readers failing to apprehend that … they falling even to understand that even if Kaname and Yuuki were 1st degree siblings viz brother and sister that wouldn’t be an incest in vampire society lol!

Imagine how the readers will receive such a development !!!!! Now Kaname and Yuuki supposed to be distant relatives (so distant that even in the human world they could interbreed … example two cousins 3rd degree) but still are insisting that there is an incest case! *SIGH*

mariangie wrote: I like to know why Kaname chose an eternal slumber instead of killing himself after his moment of great despair . I can imagine somehow he had to keep a little hope for something . Maybe he saw Yuuki in the past prior to his choice ???? Somehow he knew could meet her in his future ??????

rumland wrote: eternal slumber is the same as killing your self,

That could be an explanation, but as mariangie highlight … could be because he had a little hope for something?
Rido’s words … “ you were waiting for something …”

http://www.mangareader.net/104-51058-3/vampire-knight/chapter-60.html

“.. what you were eagerly waiting for as you laid in this coffin …”

http://www.mangareader.net/104-51058-4/vampire-knight/chapter-60.html

Could be he hoped for a change in vampire society? Could be he hoped that the change would come through the years/centuries and he wouldn’t never had to awake to proceed with his plan?
Or he had a little hope that someday he could meet those warm eyes from his vision ??? !!!

nina wrote:Two scenarios I could think:
a) He was chased out from his family due to his nature and isolates himself wandering around without purpose … or
b) his family was already passed away cuz they were humans and again Kaname started his roaming.

i would go for b... it also seems like a lot of time has passed since Kaname joined with the other purebloods because he already forgot his name. So if he ever had a human family that died or cast him away they are probably long dead. i think.
however if the hooded woman still remembers what the meaning of her human family was... then what happened with kaname's? hmm he seemed to have forgotten his name and he made no mention of his family before.

nina wrote:My impression is that Kaname and the ancestor lady didn’t have so close relationship. Perhaps they didn’t have the time for it, before she sacrificed her self.

“ The moment a small attachment was born inside me” … she sacrifice herself …
So I suppose they didn’t develop deep romantic feelings and that’s why I believe she wasn’t the female ancestor of Kurans lineage.

yes i believe this too. Also about that page where it looked like they were kissing...
if they're kissing, why is the view far away? it did not even make it obvious... also it was mentioned once that kissing is one way to take the life force of another,
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2173-8/vampire-knight/chapter-47.html
probably if they did kiss, this is what she did. one thing for sure, Kaname's affection for the woman is not as ardent or passionate as the one he's showing for yuki.

nina wrote:I think is the same door which leads to mausoleum where Kaname laid for many many ages.

http://www.mangareader.net/104-19604-25/vampire-knight/chapter-52.html
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2179-24/vampire-knight/chapter-51.html
http://www.mangareader.net/104-52342-17/vampire-knight/chapter-61.html

The same emblem is on Kaname’s grave …

http://www.mangareader.net/104-47679-29/vampire-knight/chapter-58.html

In fact I think the side of the door with the emblem is the exterior side whereas the inside hasn’t the emblem … here …

http://www.mangareader.net/104-54910-6/vampire-knight/chapter-62.html
http://www.mangareader.net/104-54910-8/vampire-knight/chapter-62.html

http://www.mangareader.net/104-19604-24/vampire-knight/chapter-52.html
http://www.mangareader.net/104-19604-25/vampire-knight/chapter-52.html
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2179-24/vampire-knight/chapter-51.html

the door in chapter 52 doesn't seem to look like it's coming from the end of the hallway like the one shown in the present time... the poles sticking out everywhere and the crumbled walls look like the door was part of the room instead of a hallway. However the pattern and style of the door in both times are similar... Maybe the place was constructed again?

if the walls were built again....then the location was different. the flashback and the present time location does look different..... in the flashback the location was in a more open space, like its a part of a room, in the present time Yuki had to go downstairs and run through some obscure passage (aido even remark he never seen it before now) to get to where the door was.

so the location was kept hidden after kaname went to slumber...his descendants did it after him... Who structured his tomb like that? and did they also know that kaname planned to sleep for millenia so he cant be bothered, thats why they made the location underground? did kaname planned it? did he have special instructions to those left not to bother his tomb? or did he purposely have it made that way so it will never be disturbed again?

nina wrote:A reasonable answer is that the hooded woman is the ancestor and Kaname is connecting her with Yuuki and his fears of losing her as it happened before, but as I said I have doubts.

Here a close image of the ancestor lady … she had braids lol.

Yes they are very different... can’t be the same. The hooded woman has lighter hair with a fringe and braided end part.. The other woman who had Yuki’s hair has black hair, shown without fringe, and just continuously straight... very much like Yuki’s.

nina wrote:Why he assumed she was from the future? Probably because of her outfit? If so that means he saw her exactly the way she is now. But why he had often such visions?

Could be he hoped for a change in vampire society? Could be he hoped that the change would come through the years/centuries and he wouldn’t never had to awake to proceed with his plan?
Or he had a little hope that someday he could meet those warm eyes from his vision ??? !!!

mariangie wrote:If the girl is really Yuuki that travelled to the past . Ended staying there . Married Kaname and had offsprings with him is a consideration for explaining why the hooded girl of chapter 60 looks like Yuuki . The problem I see is there are too many plot holes to evidence this . Also , If that girl died before the scene of Kaname crying over the mirror , could be a way to prevent this to happen at the present ??????????? If that girl was Yuuki , discovers the truth and she could change the past ; will all the present events in V .K . would change also ????????? I think Hino would have a lot to explain if Yuuki was the past wife of Kaname because she traveled in time to the past .

I always have a feeling that there's still something about Yuki that we do not know... like when she was awakening from her bloody memories, were all of it just from the terrible memories come from juri's sacrifice and rido? or was there something else? why does she react savagely when she does?

here Yuki experiences first symptom..she grabs Yori aggressively when she remembers for no reason at all:
http://i7.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/6/vampire-knight-54237.jpg

next is the pool of blood she submerged in:
http://i13.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/27/vampire-knight-1577429.jpg

next is her bloodstained hands:
http://www.mangarush.com/files/mangas/vampire-knight/30/13.jpg

another impulsive aggressive behavior where she attacks kaname for no reason:
http://www.mangarush.com/files/mangas/vampire-knight/30/20.jpg
http://www.mangarush.com/files/mangas/vampire-knight/30/22.jpg
http://www.mangarush.com/files/mangas/vampire-knight/30/23.jpg

another bloodstained room...it almost looks like a massacre happened here, not one sacrifice:
http://www.mangarush.com/files/mangas/vampire-knight/34/8.jpg

Yuki strangling Zero for no reason at all:
http://www.mangarush.com/files/mangas/vampire-knight/34/10.jpg
http://www.mangarush.com/files/mangas/vampire-knight/34/11.jpg

Back to the bloody room... and yuki in the middle of it.
http://www.mangarush.com/files/mangas/vampire-knight/34/19.jpg

the most non-memory related thought is probably this:
http://www.mangarush.com/files/mangas/vampire-knight/33/6.jpg
http://www.mangarush.com/files/mangas/vampire-knight/33/7.jpg
depends on different translations. on another it says "if bigger, we become..." and "you should be mine.."
could it belonged to Rido? or kaname? if it's kaname's then why the bloody hand?
also, why would she have scary thoughts about it if it's kaname's?

why she suddenly attacks someone if she has this episodes? Kaname said he had to restore her memories because if he didnt it would break he/ drive her mad, but what does he truly mean? WHY would it drive her mad when the memories were not that traumatic in the first place? it feels more like she has a separate inner part of her that is a vampire, whose nature is to consume and devour, and if she keeps holding it back it will take over her > hence all the episodes we saw... this other vampire side of her was shown:
when it was a child and yuki tried to resist it:
http://www.mangarush.com/files/mangas/vampire-knight/51/15.jpg
http://www.mangarush.com/files/mangas/vampire-knight/51/16.jpg

then it grew up to represent yuki's thirst for kaname, it will drive her mad if she doesn't get it:
http://www.mangarush.com/files/mangas/vampire-knight/66/13.jpg
http://www.mangarush.com/files/mangas/vampire-knight/66/14.jpg

her vampire nature seems like a separate entity...but its part of her. it was probably struggling to get out ever since she locked it up as a human... but the question is does this have anything to do with the past? its possible its just a personification of her vampire instincts but what if its something else?

Kaname's Loneliness
kaname makes a sad face when he’s with yuki and even juri and haruka...i wonder why?

Chapter34
http://i15.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/34/vampire-knight-1577606.jpg
Chapter35
http://www.mangarush.com/files/mangas/vampire-knight/35/27.jpg

there are others where Yuki observed Kaname as a lonely person... she seems to notice this every now and then, saying "this person...why is he so lonely?"
also see the face he makes when juri cuddles him, he almost looks guilty as if he doesnt deserve the hug... why?? (kaname chama ) lonely and sad... perhaps kaname is guilty of certain things and it shows, but why does he look lonely when he's with yuki??

rumland wrote:As for the thing about him being all alone, there is a chance that the bloody rose is the cause of that, we have seen that it is a particuly nasty av weapon, when zero used it on the roof of cross academy it seemed to attack all the vampires there except yuki, even the night class vampires which dodged the vines. So if kaname did lose control of the bloody rose and it ended up killing his wife at the time then that is most defently a reason to dispair and a reason to go into an eternal slumber. If I killed the women I loved I wouldn't want to live anymore ether.

yes its still a mystery why bloody rose was named as bloody rose... and why is it in the form of a gun?? i imagine long ago there would be swords and pitchforks for weapons...but guns? :silent: if the origin of the name artemis came from Yuki of the future, could it be possible with BR as well, or it came from the future?

hmm wouldn't it be weird if kaname was zero from the future, some kind of spell turns his hair black. That will total destroy the yumi zuki debates as well as the whole debate on who is better.

Ohh zero would be hateing on him self all this time and he will be his own greatist love rival.

@ Solace, very good observations there...and Nina too, theories I love them

The “key” is why Kaname saw and heard her? Also in which form he saw her? The vision was from the near future >>> he saw her as a hooded girl (ch. 60 icon?) or from the distant future as Yuuki with the school uniform????

The thing is that even if he saw her once, even if she was a premonition that does not justify the "warmth" that as a child he saw in the babies'eyes and I really doubt if he could have remembered that look just by a scene of the past. It is weird...

Yet the fact that Yuuki affects the past as you said can be indication...was that the only thing that she affected? LOL
or was it the beggining of how she affected...that.

I believe that Yuuki is there in reality and she answers her name in relation to Kaname's question " What is your name?" but identically being herself does not recognize/see herself from the outiside as when she wsa standing in Kaname's position. That could be an explanation...

Kaname realizes that she has gone and therefore he says "premonition",justifying her absence there, LOL, according to my theory.

however if the hooded woman still remembers what the meaning of her human family was... then what happened with kaname's? hmm he seemed to have forgotten his name and he made no mention of his family before.

An explanation could be that Kaname is much older (probably from the first generation of vampires, it must be cruel not to remember his name, imagine how many centuries of loleniness there must have been -hug Kaname)...

the door in chapter 52 doesn't seem to look like it's coming from the end of the hallway like the one shown in the present time... the poles sticking out everywhere and the crumbled walls look like the door was part of the room instead of a hallway. However the pattern and style of the door in both times are similar... Maybe the place was constructed again?

I was under the impression that this was the same door to tell you the truth only from a different angle..but you might be right. It's astonishing though that Kaname's despair has reached that levels that the whole builting, the walls and the columns have been shattered around him. I assume that this is his doing, out of his grief. And that grief as we saw was not provoked by the ancestor's death...He lived after her and something else made him go hopeless about the condition of the vampire society and led him -as he was left alone- in eternal slumber...

Which furhter more makes me wonder, where are his descedants? Since the Kuran line continued, there are descedants there so he is not literally alone..he lost something, I assume his mate. The one from where he could feed from , as we know that a vampire's thirst can not be quenched in any other way when they are in love- this some part matches Kaname's condition.

Kaname never wanted to hurt others, he was tired, alone, in despair andhe found no hope to go on...so he chooses eternal slumber...

Could be he hoped for a change in vampire society? Could be he hoped that the change would come through the years/centuries and he wouldn’t never had to awake to proceed with his plan?
Or he had a little hope that someday he could meet those warm eyes from his vision ??? !!!

Nina, I also believe that, as they say..hope dies last. So even though he felt too exhausted and depressed as Rido says Kaname was hiding a sparkle of hope. Perhaps he had no intention to wake up but still had down in his soul there was an optimistic side of him that kept him alive.

I wonder how the change of the vampire's society could be linked (theory again) if he had a mate that he lost, with his mate...I am not going into that point because it's a long shot and totally out of script ( I have no clues where I can base it) but perhaps he had somehow connected change with her existence, which peace I imagine could be promoted through her subtle ways. Acting as such perhaps Kaname failed to protect her and remained alone.. so now acts otherwise with a more determined plan to eliminate the dangers...

Plus as another clue I want to indicate the image of Yuuki at the sand at the end titles of Vampire Knight Guilty where she lays at the sand and her blood forms a butterfly...

sand again...there are strong indication that she existed in kaname's past if we just follow such clues..and connect them. Now is it our fault to make these theories lol?

juliet wrote:Kaname realizes that she has gone and therefore he says "premonition",justifying her absence there, LOL, according to my theory.

haha....how simple yet it does make sense. However. Note kaname said, "I often have this premonitions/visions...." perhaps it was not only yuki who travelled back in time to greet him? that would probably mean the lack of surprise on his face when he saw her and the way he casually answered a personal question from her who probably is a stranger for all he knows.

Also about Kaname's speculated wife... if she looked like yuki don't you think he would know they looked the same, if he already met her back when Yuki from the present time traveled? The supposed wife's hair does look like yuki's...well, only her hair. But still if she's kuran she should bear some resemblance... I keep getting the feeling that the Yuki who became kaname's wife in the past is a Yuki from the future, more mature and capable of herself than the Yuki we see now, and she traveled back in time for Kaname after knowing most of the things that she needed to know...perhaps one of them was knowledge of preventing what Kaname's going to do at the present, or something like that. I believe the mirror is related to this....seems like if Yuki can affect the naming of the artemis then she can also affect other things, perhaps even live with him, with the help of that mirror..?

so many questions...! :x :x :x i can't believe none of this is answered yet. not even a clue. :x

An explanation could be that Kaname is much older (probably from the first generation of vampires, it must be cruel not to remember his name, imagine how many centuries of loleniness there must have been -hug Kaname)...

poor kaname-chama. i can imagine how it would be such a lonely lonely existence.... looking at him now im amazed he's still capable of being warm and loving after all those years of non existence i totally understand his character

mmm hug

It's astonishing though that Kaname's despair has reached that levels that the whole builting, the walls and the columns have been shattered around him. I assume that this is his doing, out of his grief. And that grief as we saw was not provoked by the ancestor's death...He lived after her and something else made him go hopeless about the condition of the vampire society and led him -as he was left alone- in eternal slumber...

you really think he did that to the poor building? LOL. Kaname doesnt strike me to be the type to throw tantrums though however that can also be... i have this crazy theory where his wife (who probably the one he mourned for that time) got beheaded as she went through the "mirror portal-link-through-time" that closed prematurely and that was how she died

anyway remember the picture where yuki is in bridal dress and is bitten by kaname, where she looks like she's looking at a mirror? i wonder if the wife was a copy of yuki from the future and she came out of the mirror?? hahaha it keeps getting crazier without explanation

Which furhter more makes me wonder, where are his descedants? Since the Kuran line continued, there are descedants there so he is not literally alone..

its this where i think kaname doesnt know he has children and he probably slept thinking he was alone in the world.. he could only be driven from so much despair and emptiness for so long and that ended when the woman died. yes, a theory! again! lol)

Acting as such perhaps Kaname failed to protect her and remained alone.. so now acts otherwise with a more determined plan to eliminate the dangers...

from the way kaname is now, with his words:
"I want to keep protecting this warmth till the end.."
to yuki:
"I experienced the pain of losing someone...do you want me to feel it again?"
"Losing someone... I don't want to feel that a second time..."
"that's why i gave you artemis so you could realize that no matter what you do there are some things that can't be changed.."
"the safest place is beside me, yuki..."
with all this words come emotional and experience, i doubt it was just the hooded woman's, as he revealed he only had a "tiny/small" attachment to her which translated would mean not that much impact... he must have lost someone else who made such impact on his heart... (wife theory)
Also, Kaname is so damn protective nearly obsessive over her that he wants to put her on a glass case or something..he must've really found his heart again with Yuki so like he said he wanted to protect her warmth...preserve it in any way that it somehow drives him to extreme thoughts such as this. thankfully not that much

sand again...there are strong indication that she existed in kaname's past if we just follow such clues..and connect them. Now is it our fault to make these theories lol?

no! blame hino hahah she left us unsatisfied hence we must satisfy ourself in other WAYS

sweetsolace wrote: yes i believe this too. Also about that page where it looked like they were kissing...
if they're kissing, why is the view far away? it did not even make it obvious... also it was mentioned once that kissing is one way to take the life force of another,
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2173-8/vampire-knight/chapter-47.html
probably if they did kiss, this is what she did. one thing for sure, Kaname's affection for the woman is not as ardent or passionate as the one he's showing for yuki.

Oh! I didn’t thought of that before! It could be.
Either way as you also said all the other elements of their relationship don’t indicate that they were lovers. Even if the kiss was actually a kiss it seems to me more a goodbye kiss and simple affection.
I have the hunch that the story about the hooded-woman and Kaname is a trick from Hino … an attempt to fog the real reason for Kaname’s desperation which led him into slumber, so when she unveil the reasons (Yuuki’s involvement also?!) to be a surprise lol.

sweetsolace wrote: the door in chapter 52 doesn't seem to look like it's coming from the end of the hallway like the one shown in the present time... the poles sticking out everywhere and the crumbled walls look like the door was part of the room instead of a hallway. However the pattern and style of the door in both times are similar... Maybe the place was constructed again?

if the walls were built again....then the location was different. the flashback and the present time location does look different..... in the flashback the location was in a more open space, like its a part of a room, in the present time Yuki had to go downstairs and run through some obscure passage (aido even remark he never seen it before now) to get to where the door was.

so the location was kept hidden after kaname went to slumber...his descendants did it after him... Who structured his tomb like that? and did they also know that kaname planned to sleep for millenia so he cant be bothered, thats why they made the location underground? did kaname planned it? did he have special instructions to those left not to bother his tomb? or did he purposely have it made that way so it will never be disturbed again?

Mmm maybe you’re right. I thought it could be the same not only because of the same pattern but also cuz it could be an indication that after his great grief he went to slumber >>> mausoleum.
Also as you said there are only rubbles around the gate so afterwards it might someone (descendants) rebuild the mansion keeping that part, the mausoleum, as a “secret” place!? We saw from Rido’s case how dangerous it could be if Kaname’s body dropped in evils hands … So is plausible the mausoleum was intentionally hidden underground >>> good thought! sweetsolace !

Also interesting points about Yuuki’s aggressiveness … a simple approach is that she was too afraid from the bloody illusions, but there is definitely room for more … ????

juliet wrote: The thing is that even if he saw her once, even if she was a premonition that does not justify the "warmth" that as a child he saw in the babies'eyes and I really doubt if he could have remembered that look just by a scene of the past. It is weird...

sweetsolace wrote: haha....how simple yet it does make sense. However. Note kaname said, "I often have this premonitions/visions...." perhaps it was not only yuki who travelled back in time to greet him? that would probably mean the lack of surprise on his face when he saw her and the way he casually answered a personal question from her who probably is a stranger for all he knows.

Ha ha! You took the words off my mouth!

He says that he has OFTEN visions from the future … that means …
1. It wasn’t the first time he saw her since he wasn’t at all surprised ???
2. If he saw and talked to her more than once that could “explains” better the fact that she reminded him something, when he saw her baby’s eyes, plus the fact that at that time he was also a child >>> his memory (I think) started to recover around that age …

But after he regained his memory …

sweetsolace wrote: from the way kaname is now, with his words:
"I want to keep protecting this warmth till the end.."
to yuki:
"I experienced the pain of losing someone...do you want me to feel it again?"
"Losing someone... I don't want to feel that a second time..."
"that's why i gave you artemis so you could realize that no matter what you do there are some things that can't be changed.."
"the safest place is beside me, yuki..."
with all this words come emotional and experience, i doubt it was just the hooded woman's, as he revealed he only had a "tiny/small" attachment to her which translated would mean not that much impact... he must have lost someone else who made such impact on his heart... (wife theory)
Also, Kaname is so damn protective nearly obsessive over her that he wants to put her on a glass case or something..he must've really found his heart again with Yuki so like he said he wanted to protect her warmth...preserve it in any way that it somehow drives him to extreme thoughts such as this. thankfully not that much

I second that !!!!
The hooded-ancestor lady it’s not the reason for his great grief! The question is if Yuuki is related with his grief literally and how, or he just connecting his past experience with Yuuki ????? >>> thus he is “overprotective” towards her(?!), and cuz he realizes he can’t keep her in a glass case he takes measures >>> original plan …

juliet wrote: Yet the fact that Yuuki affects the past as you said can be indication...was that the only thing that she affected? LOL
or was it the beggining of how she affected...that.

I believe that Yuuki is there in reality and she answers her name in relation to Kaname's question " What is your name?" but identically being herself does not recognize/see herself from the outiside as when she wsa standing in Kaname's position. That could be an explanation...

Kaname realizes that she has gone and therefore he says "premonition",justifying her absence there, LOL, according to my theory.

Aaa! You mean that she answers that her name is Artemis! viz she existed in the past with the name Artemis! If that’s true (and of course she couldn’t see her form) means Kaname it might seeing her as the hooded-girl from ch.60 >>> Yuuki took the form of that girl as she did when took the form of Kaname in front of the ancestor-lady … But this theory leads to the conclusion that Yuuki didn’t existed in the past nor has any connection with Kaname’s lost wife … except if Yuuki is reincarnation of that woman!
The whole thing is a puzzle!!!! *SIGH* :craziness...:

haha....how simple yet it does make sense. However. Note kaname said, "I often have this premonitions/visions...." perhaps it was not only yuki who travelled back in time to greet him? that would probably mean the lack of surprise on his face when he saw her and the way he casually answered a personal question from her who probably is a stranger for all he knows.

Interesting…what else premonitions did he have? Perhaps Hino could do a spin-off story just with Kaname. Anyone interested?

If she looked like yuki don't you think he would know they looked the same, if he already met her back when Yuki from the present time traveled? The supposed wife's hair does look like yuki's...well, only her hair.

Aaa! You mean that she answers that her name is Artemis! viz she existed in the past with the name Artemis! If that’s true (and of course she couldn’t see her form) means Kaname it might seeing her as the hooded-girl from ch.60 >>> Yuuki took the form of that girl as she did when took the form of Kaname in front of the ancestor-lady … But this theory leads to the conclusion that Yuuki didn’t existed in the past nor has any connection with Kaname’s lost wife … except if Yuuki is reincarnation of that woman!

She would look the same, I also get this idea…but he would not have recognized her in this scene where Hino shows Yuuki to blend in his memories, if he had not met her yet or if he just meets her at that moment.
To better explain my idea is that Yuuki there is the ancestor and she had witnessed the scene of the other’s ancestors death. She sees Kaname, she runs outside and tries to talk to him…He asks of her name, now our Yuuki from the present sees herself as she is today so she does not understand that she is her past self (as she had not understand that she was Kaname at first, when riding that horse and talking to the ancestor).
We see today’s Yuuki’s POV so we do see her as she is today, and she being one and the same does not recognize the difference. When Kaname asks her name, she replies “Artemis”, so that’s both the reply that our own Yuuki gives but as well as the ancestor reply, not to the weapon but to her name. Then the ancestor vanishes, Yuuki is called back from Kaname’s memories and the doors shut. Crazy, LOL, I know.
Then Kaname in his ancestor past meets the ancestor Yuuki again…current Yuuki in my theory could indeed be the reincarnation or perhaps the awakening in a sense of his former wife…(?)

... I keep getting the feeling that the Yuki who became kaname's wife in the past is a Yuki from the future, more mature and capable of herself than the Yuki we see now, and she traveled back in time for Kaname after knowing most of the things that she needed to know...

And that’s a very good explanation and very interesting!! So our Yuuki finally discovers history and finds a way to interact with the past, feeling that if she travels to the past and she is capable of changing, she could change the present thus even the future.
So yes perhaps that was not the last time that she interfered in the past and perhaps if in the future time they could not share the present, then the past would be a gate out. (LOL am I making any meaning out this?) I hope so…LOL

seems like if Yuki can affect the naming of the artemis then she can also affect other things, perhaps even live with him, with the help of that mirror..?

Now the mirror there, left in the middle of nowhere is a good phase…And Hino has used mirrors again as a travel between two worlds…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MeruPuri
See Meri Puri, if you have not seen it, Aram that definitely has that Kanamish styling, moves back and forth from his own magic world and Puri’s world..his exit and entrance is the mirror. So Yuuki there in the past could have travelled through the mirror…

Therefore if Hino develops the script at that direction, she can use that clue she has already spread here and there, in order to justify the travels…she has already depicted the mirror three times..one at the past scene, one in Kaname’s past where he is grieving desperately over the mirror, one at that picture where Yuuki’s figure pinpoints in the mirror’s reflection…

So Hino has spread the clues…the question is, as Libra had said to me, will she develop it? Don’t worry I shall make a fanfiction out of this to go yammy…unless you want to make it solace, hey aren’t you supposed to be writing? Hm, hm..coughs there… LOL

you really think he did that to the poor building? LOL. Kaname doesnt strike me to be the type to throw tantrums though however that can also be...

Their emotions are known to shatter things…yes I do belief that his grief and despair in this scene are so great that he cannot control them and the building shatters from his internal intensity of his feelings that he cannot hold back..
It would be something dramatic like ‘walls and stones shatter and fall and crumble… broken down to million pieces…as much alike as this fragile existence that shall be here no more..” LOL I have started writing this already…LOL, I do not need much, LOL an inspiration is all that it takes…haha.

Either way as you also said all the other elements of their relationship don’t indicate that they were lovers. Even if the kiss was actually a kiss it seems to me more a goodbye kiss and simple affection.
I have the hunch that the story about the hooded-woman and Kaname is a trick from Hino … an attempt to fog the real reason for Kaname’s desperation which led him into slumber, so when she unveil the reasons (Yuuki’s involvement also?!) to be a surprise lol.

Their supposed to be kiss, is considering the time after his observation that she looks pale, so she might as well, as solace says borrow power from him there, a very good observation that I had not also made the connection…plus the “lend me your power” remark, she seems to get his powers (plus knowledge) all the time, the ancestor…
Pale+energy+kiss= strength for vampires…

nina wrote:I have the hunch that the story about the hooded-woman and Kaname is a trick from Hino … an attempt to fog the real reason for Kaname’s desperation which led him into slumber, so when she unveil the reasons (Yuuki’s involvement also?!) to be a surprise lol.

Yes I get this feeling too.. Hino’s plot can be really deceiving sometimes so could be the hooded woman who we saw “kissed” kaname only served as diversion... and his real love is somewhere out there.

nina wrote:He says that he has OFTEN visions from the future … that means …
1. It wasn’t the first time he saw her since he wasn’t at all surprised ???

i think it was more that Yuki’s first remark was “Eh... you can see me??” and kaname’s answer was a calm, “Yes, i can see you..” no question mark on his face, no surprise.... imagine it like a weird ghost who just talked to you, and say yes i can see you.
I wonder if he’s used to witnessing people like Yuki coming around you know? Ehe..

nina wrote:But this theory leads to the conclusion that Yuuki didn’t existed in the past nor has any connection with Kaname’s lost wife … except if Yuuki is reincarnation of that woman!

juliet wrote:Then Kaname in his ancestor past meets the ancestor Yuuki again…current Yuuki in my theory could indeed be the reincarnation or perhaps the awakening in a sense of his former wife…(?)

it's also possible, however if she is reincarnation again shouldn't kaname noticed the similarity of their appearance, given that the woman did have much impact in his life, and shouldn't yuki retain some memories of the woman and remember it.

juliet wrote:When Kaname asks her name, she replies “Artemis”, so that’s both the reply that our own Yuuki gives but as well as the ancestor reply, not to the weapon but to her name. Then the ancestor vanishes, Yuuki is called back from Kaname’s memories and the doors shut. Crazy, LOL, I know.

Here Yuki pops out of the blue and Kaname asks her, who are you?
http://www.mangareader.net/104-57201-21/vampire-knight/chapter-64.html
http://www.mangareader.net/104-57201-22/vampire-knight/chapter-64.html

yuki replies with “eh you can see me?? (not really answering the question) and kaname says yes i can... then yuki says “its Artemis...” further providing the origin of the name
i think Kaname understand that Artemis was her name, and he also thought the name was appropriate for the weapon...
furthermore, he’s like talking to himself about not being able to feel anything anymore etc etc... maybe Yuki came at the moment Kaname was at his lowest peak and he began telling his numbed feelings? Why would he talk like that to a stranger...eh? haha... moreover a strange stranger.

juliet wrote:
So yes perhaps that was not the last time that she interfered in the past and perhaps if in the future time they could not share the present, then the past would be a gate out. (LOL am I making any meaning out this?) I hope so…LOL

I think the present yuki now still doesn’t know about the mirror, but if she does find out and it has power to go back in time, and at the time she discovers it Kaname’s actions have gone too far, perhaps she would think about trying to change it?
I have another feeling that Kaname’s wife is a Future Yuki, who came back to make him happy (since she always noticed in the past he seemed really lonely), bear him children and then go back to the future to see if anything changed with Kaname’s plans. That’s probably why Kaname mourned over the broken mirror because it was broken that means she wasn’t going to come back so he decided it was no use fretting and so he slept it off, LOL. “Lose someone” doesn’t always have to mean death.
Another thing, if this Future Yuki died in the past, then she must come from a different time dimension because if the present Yuki now is going to die in the future because she went to the past that means History will Repeat itself! Since her death was the major influence of Kaname’s original plans.... So yes it could be she comes from another time dimension

juliet wrote:Now the mirror there, left in the middle of nowhere is a good phase…And Hino has used mirrors again as a travel between two worlds…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MeruPuri
See Meri Puri, if you have not seen it, Aram that definitely has that Kanamish styling, moves back and forth from his own magic world and Puri’s world..his exit and entrance is the mirror. So Yuuki there in the past could have travelled through the mirror…

Therefore if Hino develops the script at that direction, she can use that clue she has already spread here and there, in order to justify the travels…she has already depicted the mirror three times..one at the past scene, one in Kaname’s past where he is grieving desperately over the mirror, one at that picture where Yuuki’s figure pinpoints in the mirror’s reflection…

Great idea ! i agree...it seems to be present in her other works too. Lol and yes Aram looks like Kaname-chama although in that story the mirror was small, like a hand held mirror, if anyone where to enter literally they wouldn’t fit, so yeah i can understand the huge mirror on a flat surface on VK ahaha...

juliet wrote:So Hino has spread the clues…the question is, as Libra had said to me, will she develop it? Don’t worry I shall make a fanfiction out of this to go yammy…unless you want to make it solace, hey aren’t you supposed to be writing? Hm, hm..coughs there… LOL

Eh Juliet-san... :3 you’re not going to punish me if i happen to delay on fanfic writing neh? Ahaha... (no, please don’t.. spare me.. )
Uhn yes interesting idea though, however i still have to catch up with all the Manga Reading Assignments i was given to read... >_> and i still haven’t updated any of my fanfictions so it would be ultimately cruel for me to start a new one when i haven’t finished the others neh
Oh yammy is here? Neh hug.

juliet wrote:Their emotions are known to shatter things…yes I do belief that his grief and despair in this scene are so great that he cannot control them and the building shatters from his internal intensity of his feelings that he cannot hold back..
It would be something dramatic like ‘walls and stones shatter and fall and crumble… broken down to million pieces…as much alike as this fragile existence that shall be here no more..” LOL I have started writing this already…LOL, I do not need much, LOL an inspiration is all that it takes…haha.

Mm sounds explosive. Doesn’t seem that upscale, i mean it was only known if they’re distressed it causes windows to crack and shatter, however if you’re describing something else by that of course it’s possible by theory LOL
Yes yes i can imagine how you’d be inspired by all this, LOL, keep going and I might come with an idea too

sweetsolace wrote: it's also possible, however if she is reincarnation again shouldn't kaname noticed the similarity of their appearance, given that the woman did have much impact in his life, and shouldn't yuki retain some memories of the woman and remember it.

Well we only know Kaname’s reaction to Yuuki’s baby eyes. He didn’t have all his memory back, at that time. We don’t know if later on remembered her!???

Also Yuuki’s memory could be “sealed”.
If Yuuki is reincarnation of Artemis (=hooded girl), this doesn’t mean she will have the exact same body in the future as Yuuki or that she could remember her past life. It supposed a reincarnation can regain the memory from the past life/lives through hypnosis and that only the “soul”/”spirit” transfer to the new body … so if something like that stands, maybe Yuuki need a “stimulant” to awake her memory from her past life as Artemis.

OR …

If she can travel in time through the mirror (=time gate) she has to have the exact same figure she has now as Yuuki … maybe with different cloths to match with the era. If that’s the case then Kaname definitely must have recognised her by now!? So she might have the power to change everything we already saw thus far >>> to rewrite the history and change the present!
BUT a big but arise here … if Kaname knows that why so much agony and despair ? Why he has to proceed with his original plan which seems too drastic at this moment? He couldn’t “teach”, “show” Yuuki the way to change the history, hence and the present?

nina wrote:

sweetsolace wrote: it's also possible, however if she is reincarnation again shouldn't kaname noticed the similarity of their appearance, given that the woman did have much impact in his life, and shouldn't yuki retain some memories of the woman and remember it.

Well we only know Kaname’s reaction to Yuuki’s baby eyes. He didn’t have all his memory back, at that time. We don’t know if later on remembered her!???

Also Yuuki’s memory could be “sealed”.
If Yuuki is reincarnation of Artemis (=hooded girl), this doesn’t mean she will have the exact same body in the future as Yuuki or that she could remember her past life. It supposed a reincarnation can regain the memory from the past life/lives through hypnosis and that only the “soul”/”spirit” transfer to the new body … so if something like that stands, maybe Yuuki need a “stimulant” to awake her memory from her past life as Artemis.

OR …

If she can travel in time through the mirror (=time gate) she has to have the exact same figure she has now as Yuuki … maybe with different cloths to match with the era. If that’s the case then Kaname definitely must have recognised her by now!? So she might have the power to change everything we already saw thus far >>> to rewrite the history and change the present!
BUT a big but arise here … if Kaname knows that why so much agony and despair ? Why he has to proceed with his original plan which seems too drastic at this moment? He couldn’t “teach”, “show” Yuuki the way to change the history, hence and the present?

the only clues we got that suggest time travel is the mirror and the woman who had yuki's hair in kaname's thoughts.

also the woman in kaname's thoughts did appear around chapter 62...meaning a long long time has passed since he lost her presumably but he still remembers her and compare along with Yuki's thoughts. You are right if Yuki and the woman looked the same he would've known the similarity...the warmth in the baby's eyes was our only clue, perhaps he recognize the same warmth was similar with his past wife and decided she was a reincarnation, or he just wanted to cling onto something to live on and that was Yuki?
if it was only the soul of the woman that was reincarnated and her memories were still sealed inside yuki waiting to be awakened probably kaname may not know it even after all this time and so does yuki, yes this is also possible.
however i have another idea that since the woman is kaname's wife, then she's also a Kuran and Kuran's share some similar appearances, perhaps Yuki got her hair? Could this explain why Kaname didn't want her to cut her hair and keep it long? see the woman's hair was also long...exactly like yuki's hair now.
Also ever wonder why when Yuki was awakened, her hair has to grow that long, it doesn't make sense, lol, its not like a whole bunch of hormones got stuck along with her memory and vampire instinct inside her hair follicles so it all came out in a rush when she remembered. Voila instant hair growth.. its not justifiable on grounds that her hair as pureblood was originally long, only 10 years has passed and for a pureblood that's probably like one day in their lifespan so the hair growth is out.
Hmmmmm..i feel like getting on to something........
Kaname also says Yuki was meant to become his wife..it was her destiny...but only if she wanted to. could he be talking about what their parents decided, or something else that he knows? I doubt that its just what their parents wanted because it does look like Kaname wanted it too, like he knew it was meant to be, also kaname knew juri and haruka just raised his body...
ahh all this thinking makes my head hurt now... i'll think about it after a bit LOL

I kinda agree on the clinging thery, but kaname and zero seem to be clinging onto yuki in order to continue living, and yuki is trying her best to keep them both alive. Hunestly I think it would be a little scary if yuki were to sudenly be killed off, if it were to happen we would have both kaname and zero being unable to be controled and careing nothing about there own lifes.

I think that all theories could be possible, after all this is finction here we have spelled tatoos and premonitions, travels to the past and so on. So why not incarnation or travels in time, of course there is nothing solid but clues. Yet, Hino left the clues there, and is she going to do it and complete Kaname's past (that after all is missing) or she going to pull back developping the story in another direction?

Ha, I hope we are not left with the questions and she goes and feed our curiosity and wild imagination (LOL)

This is so interesting to read, seriously.. I am in a daze, my mind is full of unanswered questions!

Also, this makes me think of the hunter twins. They create the most powerful hunter.
*Has there been other hunter twins? (must of been for there to be a legend)
Why were they born around the time Kaname managed to get his memory back?

*But, how did Kaien come to excist?

*The shattered mirror looks a lot like the shatters of a pureblood.. That is hardly a coincidence?

hum hum more and more quesions arise..

Bah Time travel, its such a messy thing, I don't think VK intends to go there. Plus neither Kaname nor Yuuki mention this, they obviously think its part of the hallucination, like how Shizuka talked to Yuuki at the start.

Reincarnation, nope, Kaname doesn't expect Yuuki to remember or recognise him after delving into his memories, unlike when she awoke after 10 years. So if Kaname has no expectations, I don't think there's anything more to expect from Yuuki.

Kaname also says Yuki was meant to become his wife..it was her destiny...but only if she wanted to.

He said she was "born to be his wife". I think thats more a reflection of how he feels connected to her on the matter.

On the whole, in spite of the fact that destiny is used on the taglines, its not really a theme that is in the actual story, none of the characters have any "destiny" to fulfil etc. prophecies and that kinda stuff isn't part of this story that usual is in a destiny story.

Kaname finds familiarity in Yuuki's eyes when he touches her hand.
Yuuki has the ability to break memory spells on herself and others.

Theory: Kaname sees Yuuki not because she was familiar, but because she helps him see his memories.

Knightmare wrote:Bah Time travel, its such a messy thing, I don't think VK intends to go there. Plus neither Kaname nor Yuuki mention this, they obviously think its part of the hallucination, like how Shizuka talked to Yuuki at the start.

Reincarnation, nope, Kaname doesn't expect Yuuki to remember or recognise him after delving into his memories, unlike when she awoke after 10 years. So if Kaname has no expectations, I don't think there's anything more to expect from Yuuki.

Kaname also says Yuki was meant to become his wife..it was her destiny...but only if she wanted to.

He said she was "born to be his wife". I think thats more a reflection of how he feels connected to her on the matter.

On the whole, in spite of the fact that destiny is used on the taglines, its not really a theme that is in the actual story, none of the characters have any "destiny" to fulfil etc. prophecies and that kinda stuff isn't part of this story that usual is in a destiny story.

Kaname finds familiarity in Yuuki's eyes when he touches her hand.
Yuuki has the ability to break memory spells on herself and others.

Theory: Kaname sees Yuuki not because she was familiar, but because she helps him see his memories.

That gave me an idea, yeah Yuki's powers is that return memory thing, so Kaname didn't really know much about himself but maybe...MAYBE! When Yuki held on to his finger unknowingly she returned Kaname's memories. Yeah I totally agree with you Knightmare

Knightmare wrote:

Theory: Kaname sees Yuuki not because she was familiar, but because she helps him see his memories.

I do not understand what exactly you mean...

@Nina, I think that for the theory for the ancestor Yuuki we could speak better here..so I also took the freedom to transfer some of your points here...

There is something about Rido that we still miss … what he did to be ostracized from the clan!??? From his puzzler wording can we assume that he knows what drove Kaname into despair and slumber? … my gut feeling is that Rido was involved in the incident that drove Kaname in despair (probably the loss of his wife) and that was the reason to be erased from the family. Everything ties … the core of his torture towards Kaname revolves around his contradictions/fears which concerns his love interest viz Yuuki … the reason of his banishment is still unknown, despite the fact that his role supposedly is over. So I think it make sense, the reason to be a secret is cuz it’s related with another secret >> Kaname’s grief>>loss>>identity of his wife.
Also note this … Rido was Shizuka’s fiancé >> connection with Hiou’s clan … an engagement probably for political reasons which right now we don’t know the implications but could be the missing piece of why Kaname killed also the head of the Hiou’s clan after Hanadagi? Also … Rido became a mad man … could his mother was a female from Hiou’s family who have heredity in madness? << This could also explain why Rido was engaged with Shizuka and not with Juri as firstborn <<< Shizuka could was his half sister thus and the engagement.

This is a very good remark there.

Very nice theory Nina, haha, you have that fic certain from me...now about Rido…and his desires. Its stated that he is old (more than 3.000) but I have no idea about his implication with the ancestor’s Kaname past.

Still there seems to be a strange remark from Kaname’s side ( it has been mentioned over many fans) at vol. 8, when Kaname crushes Rido eleven years ago, when Rido had gone to take Yuuki, so I take it from the official volume ;
Kaname: “It did not think that someone like you would be born…It was a miscalculation from my part?”

Now we can say that Kaname is suffering from guilty syndromes in general or what is the exact meaning there? How could he exactly calculate or predicted Rido’s character? From the blood lineage perhaps?

So your theory about Hio’s who also have the legacy to go bersek can have very good grounds in case Rido had another mother than Haruka and Yuuri. Perhaps that could also explain the two different colors eyes- blue color – that is not ordinary in Kurans as we have seen so far. Great theory there.

nina wrote:
Furthermore Kaname’s contradictions may have a deeper meaning as well. Keeping her for himself; aka never reveal her existence? <<< If he could do that, maybe it wouldn’t be necessary to proceed with his original plan. Somehow seems that the apocalypse of Yuuki’s existence is directly affined with Kaname’s plan >>> if Yuuki would be unveiled then his path was one-way. So maybe after all, his hesitation/contradictions had nothing to do with selfishness or possessiveness as he is been accused multiple times *cough*. And as we suspected Kaname took his decision to actualize his original plan, after the “conversation” with Rido.

-About Rido; he resurrects the ancestor and kills baby Kaname- wanting to become the strongest of all since he had planted to take the ancestor’s powers. The ancestor was kept in the basement of the house so that means that Yuuri and Haruka, also new the existence of the ancestor and not only that but they named their son after the ancestor.

Which brings me here in the realization that “Kaname” was a dear person in the family…yes, it should be, in order for Yuuri and Haruka to name their baby after the ancestor, then Kaname should be both loved and honored in his family.
But not for Rido, or little did he care, when he went to drink the ancestor.
After that Rido is entrusted to the council *perhaps that is when he was banned from the family tree of the family*

But then, he returns to take princess Yuuki – his main excuse is his love for Yuuri that turned down his initial feelings…

The fact that he returns shows that no matter how much of a secret Yuuri and Haruka might have wanted to keep Yuuki as a secret, keeping her in the basement, that much they failed.

Again from vol.8 stated by Yuuki while she is in Kaname’s arm during Rido’s and Haruka’s fight;

Yuuki: “For a while now, I have been having scary dreams. Someone with one red eye and one blue eye stares at me…He’s always staring me.
Some panels after;
Rido: I came to get your princess that you’ve been hiding so carefully…
Some panels after;
Kaname: I will prepare a place where you won’t have to live in fear…

@ About Kaname….So what we can guess here is that no matter how well Kaname also hides Yuuki (while she is still untrained and unsuspicious of the vampires and the significance of her power) her presence cannot remain a secret as with Rido’s case.

Also, there is another parameter’s here; Yuuki’s own will that wants not only to be recognized but also to aid at the protection of innoncent lives, as she had stated to Isaya when she went visiting him; so she wants an active role, despite her weakness and her naivety.

I think that from the time that Yuuki decides to step outside, taking Artemis at her hands, Kaname cannot avoid it, finally he has to act and set his greaten plan (the one of his ancestor living) in action…

There his contradiction is rising and its obvious; either he releases her and gets on with his plan, either he holds her behind, captured at home and that way he is also protecting him without further risk.

Apparently, he chooses to give her power and knowledge and decides to go on with his original plan which right now seems to serve also his plan to protect Yuuki by building her a safe environment that she can cherish.

But you are right about one point, if Yuuki's importance to the script was a of a really great importance such as the the ex-Queen of vampires, the key to co-existence, the one person that should definetely being protected while vulnerable in order to achieve great things in the future time, that would make her revelation to the other vampires one way road for Kaname, and that would also justify totally his overprotection as her parents overprotection. It's just a theory but if Hino wanted to go that far with her plot, she has made the background story to achieve that.

Observations:

> Yuuki’s birth should be kept as a secret.

> When her existence it became known Rido was aiming specifically for her an attack which drove to Haruka’s and Juri’s death in order to protect her existence.

> Rido’s reappearance brought the “big bang” that Yuuki was a PB and not a human after all … and on top of that the Kuran princess!!!

> Yuuki’s revelation as the princess into vampires’ society set in motion a new circle of conflicts …

Interpretations:

Based on the above observations can’t stop thinking if we should expect a new apocalypse for Yuuki when Kaname’s reasons for killing Hana and Hiou will unveiled … hints >> Yuuki’s butterflies’ wings, the resin rose, the mysterious key … I think there are things that we don’t know about Yuuki lol.

Cuz seems that everything revolves around Yuuki … so IMO Kaname’s original plan is about Yuuki’s protection …
The co-existence is a general idea which Kaname believed in, and served … his past says so without doubt …

Up to the point that Kaname's memories close, we are left with the hunters killing the purebloods. Up to this point notice that the idea about co-existence has not been introduced. The point here is that the Kurans interfered and took political power in order to rule the vampires...

How vampires organized themselves...

1. When human civilization almost perished in ancient times, the progenitor of vampires appeared.
2. The number of vampires began to increase exponentially.

Here is where the the flashback in chronological order actually stops because...

Spoiler:

here Kaname says that they wanted to make famillies so they spread....

3. The Kurans became the royal familly >not shown

4. The king two generations ago abolished the monarchy > not shown

The monarchy...

The Kurans became the royal family, and they had full authority over everything. But the Head of the Kuran family two generations ago (Haruka Kuran's father) did not want this and abolished the monarchy. He summoned the Senate to make them govern vampire society instead. The Senate is an organization that was established two generations ago by the King related to Kuran Kaname.

So Kaname is not the King that abolished the monarchy. It seems though that he could have been the Head of the Kuran Clan that created it...

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Watch how he apologises to Yuuki about "so much weakness", saying that this something from the far past. He feels responsible. But why? and how is that connected to Yuuki's existence at the present time? What does he mean? Can we interpret his words now?

hmm the reason could be that he was the first king right? so he rulde for a long time over the vampires ell until the fell in despair and decide to fall into an eternal slumber...maybe he has guilty conciouse...because he thought if he had stay he would be able to avoid the war between the purbloods who get the power....maybe this?Do you remember as Sara returns back to her mansion after the Kaname&Yuuki Party ? She said something like that is the game of the bored Purbloods...that could mean that they are fighting each other to gain the power ...just for fun....because they are eternal and it would bring more coloure in theire life....

My seconde theory is that kaname has the same ability like Juuri I mean to "lock " the vampire side to transforma vampire into humans? maybe this is the reason why he is going to kill all other purbloods to "collect"
power and transform every vampire into humans? and maybe he wanted to do this a long time ago but didn´t because of the slumber?

@Juliet you combined excellent lots of the puzzle pieces there!!!! Aaah I luuuuwww the speculations about Kaname’s past more than anything lol.

Juliet wrote:

knightmare wrote: Theory: Kaname sees Yuuki not because she was familiar, but because she helps him see his memories.

I do not understand what exactly you mean...

Probably knightmare means that when the baby Yuuki grabbed Kaname’s finger, with the ability she has to break sealed memories, she also broke Kaname’s seal and his past memories started to return. Cuz when the ancestor Kaname had to reduce his body into a baby’s, he also sealed his memories … I think something like that knightmare means … at least this is what I understood from her theory.

I think is possible though … Kaname’s memories started to come back around this age … when he visited Aidou and asked to play with the sand, when he delved his foot in the sand he said … how nostalgic. So I think this was a first sign that his memory was starting to recover. Anyway … the two theories aren’t controversial by any mean … can beautifully combine. XD

juliet wrote: Its stated that he is old (more than 3.000) but I have no idea about his implication with the ancestor’s Kaname past.

Still there seems to be a strange remark from Kaname’s side ( it has been mentioned over many fans) at vol. 8, when Kaname crushes Rido eleven years ago, when Rido had gone to take Yuuki, so I take it from the official volume ;
Kaname: “It did not think that someone like you would be born…It was a miscalculation from my part?”

Now we can say that Kaname is suffering from guilty syndromes in general or what is the exact meaning there? How could he exactly calculate or predicted Rido’s character? From the blood lineage perhaps?

So your theory about Hio’s who also have the legacy to go bersek can have very good grounds in case Rido had another mother than Haruka and Yuuri. Perhaps that could also explain the two different colors eyes- blue color – that is not ordinary in Kurans as we have seen so far. Great theory there.

Yes I had always in mind about Kaname’s remark for the miscalculation which brought Rido in life. This was something that tortured me very much, trying to understand what he meant.

Now … my feeling is that Kaname the ancestor was the grandfather that Juri have mentioned many times! She didn’t refer to their father but to the grandfather as the head of their clan >>> Juri and Haruka had met their grandfather so >>>

The ancestor was kept in the basement of the house so that means that Yuuri and Haruka, also new the existence of the ancestor and not only that but they named their son after the ancestor.

Which brings me here in the realization that “Kaname” was a dear person in the family…yes, it should be, in order for Yuuri and Haruka to name their baby after the ancestor, then Kaname should be both loved and honored in his family.
But not for Rido, or little did he care, when he went to drink the ancestor.
After that Rido is entrusted to the council *perhaps that is when he was banned from the family tree of the family*

Exactly … Juri and Haruka probably loved the ancestor and named their firstborn after his name! So everything ties … they loved and honored him because they knew him!

Also … Juri have mentioned that her grandfather insisted to be escorted from Haruka, in order to allow her to go to the human-school.

So how I came with the idea …
Kaname was the head of the family … the first and the last king and also Juri’s and Haruka’s grandfather … The fishy thing here is that we don’t have any reference for Kaname’s wife aka the first Queen=grandmother … why??? I’ll drop it for the moment…

If my theory stands any ground … Kaname suffering from the loss of his wife/queen went to slumber being the king, and then his son viz Juri’s father demolished the monarchy and established the senate.
I think is logical … if the family suffered so many losses … queen’s murder, king in slumber and all of that in the name of power then is possible that they stepped down from their hereditary right for the throne, and pass the authority to the senate in order to protect their existence. When Kaname awaked from his slumber found a system that didn’t work, hence and decides to wipe it off.

That’s why I think there was only one king and that’s Kaname … do you think that the kingly image that Hino gave him especially in the last chapters and the title “the king who abandoned his throne” is random? I don’t think so.

About Rido …

I thought that he might be from a not Kuran mother based on these hints …

1. On the fact that as a firstborn he probably had the “right” to be the fiancé of Juri … furthermore from Juri’s wording we can see that her grandfather chose Haruka to escort her not Rido, despite the fact that at that time Juri didn’t have any romantic interest for Haruka. Seems like the grandfather wanted to give a little push into their relationship? Maybe not … maybe he did it only out of fear and to protect Juri, but the fact remains … he didn’t choose Rido for that assignment … so his preference to Haruka over Rido is a given and prior the creation of the senate.

2. The madness and Kaname’s miscalculation … If Kaname allowed or didn’t manage to avoid a match between his son and a female PB from the Hiou family, which have heredity in madness, then his guilt for Rido’s existence have a sense.

3. The different coloured eyes as you said … it might be an indication that Rido’s parents weren’t both of them Kurans … the Hiou family has bright colours so the one blue eye can be explained.

4. The engagement with Shizuka … if they were half brother and sister then again is possible to be engaged for that reason, since the intermarriage between siblings is something common for the PBs.

5. Why the grandfather preferred Haruka instead of Rido who was also the first born? <<< This also could be a reason of why Rido hated the ancestor/grandfather>>> cuz he didn’t allow him to engage with Juri.

After that Rido is entrusted to the council *perhaps that is when he was banned from the family tree of the family*

Mmm if my assumptions are accurate, then maybe Kaname didn’t have anything to do with the creation of the senate … so Rido’s collaboration with the senate came after Kaname’s slumber. Also Rido’s hate for the ancestor/grandfather maybe was prior the senate again … What I’m trying to say is that is more possible for Rido to have done something else, and more serious to be ostracized from his family … and then the senate approached him as an outcast and used his hatred towards his family …

But then, he returns to take princess Yuuki – his main excuse is his love for Yuuri that turned down his initial feelings…

The fact that he returns shows that no matter how much of a secret Yuuri and Haruka might have wanted to keep Yuuki as a secret, keeping her in the basement, that much they failed.

Again from vol.8 stated by Yuuki while she is in Kaname’s arm during Rido’s and Haruka’s fight;

Yuuki: “For a while now, I have been having scary dreams. Someone with one red eye and one blue eye stares at me…He’s always staring me.
Some panels after;
Rido: I came to get your princess that you’ve been hiding so carefully…
Some panels after;
Kaname: I will prepare a place where you won’t have to live in fear…

Yes you’re right … Rido specifically targeting Yuuki … to do with her what? She was only a child so he probably didn’t want her for Juri’s replacement at that age right?
I think that scene/incident upgrades the importance of Yuuki’s existence …

But you are right about one point, if Yuuki's importance to the script was a of a really great importance such as the the ex-Queen of vampires, the key to co-existence, the one person that should definetely being protected while vulnerable in order to achieve great things in the future time, that would make her revelation to the other vampires one way road for Kaname, and that would also justify totally his overprotection as her parents overprotection. It's just a theory but if Hino wanted to go that far with her plot, she has made the background story to achieve that.

This is exactly what I meant … even if Yuuki isn’t the ex-queen the importance of her existence is a logical assumption cuz of the “extreme” measures for her protection … not only from Kaname but from her parents as well. They went into such extent that they decided to sacrifice their lives in order to keep her existence a secret <<< this I think was the meaning to turn her into human, cuz whatever they did failed and Yuuki was running a great danger as a PB/princess, hence and the decision to turn her into a plain human girl to ensure her safety, at least for some years.

Up to the point that Kaname's memories close, we are left with the hunters killing the purebloods. Up to this point notice that the idea about co-existence has not been introduced. The point here is that the Kurans interfered and took political power in order to rule the vampires...

I think the idea of co-existence isn’t introduce yet (I mean up to the point Kaname’s past stopped) cuz this idea was the Queen’s idea … <<< if that’s true then the importance of Yuuki’s existence is reinforced even more…

Watch how he apologises to Yuuki about "so much weakness", saying that this something from the far past. He feels responsible. But why? and how is that connected to Yuuki's existence at the present time? What does he mean? Can we interpret his words now?

IF he was the one and only king who abandoned his throne and went into slumber out of despair then his guilt syndrome makes sense. He didn’t succeed to make the world better … the co-existence is still a dream …
If I stretch it furthermore … if Yuuki is the ex-queen who introduced the idea of co-existence but she was murdered and Kaname didn’t accomplish to prevent that, then there we have another reason for his apologies … also the fact that he didn’t stay in his position and try to make come true his wife dream, but he chose the slumber rather than maybe proceed with his original plan … then we have another reason for his guilt and his weakness …

juliet wrote:

There is something about Rido that we still miss … what he did to be ostracized from the clan!??? From his puzzler wording can we assume that he knows what drove Kaname into despair and slumber? … my gut feeling is that Rido was involved in the incident that drove Kaname in despair (probably the loss of his wife) and that was the reason to be erased from the family. Everything ties … the core of his torture towards Kaname revolves around his contradictions/fears which concerns his love interest viz Yuuki … the reason of his banishment is still unknown, despite the fact that his role supposedly is over. So I think it make sense, the reason to be a secret is cuz it’s related with another secret >> Kaname’s grief>>loss>>identity of his wife.
Also note this … Rido was Shizuka’s fiancé >> connection with Hiou’s clan … an engagement probably for political reasons which right now we don’t know the implications but could be the missing piece of why Kaname killed also the head of the Hiou’s clan after Hanadagi? Also … Rido became a mad man … could his mother was a female from Hiou’s family who have heredity in madness? << This could also explain why Rido was engaged with Shizuka and not with Juri as firstborn <<< Shizuka could was his half sister thus and the engagement.

This is a very good remark there.

this is a strange theory.

I thought the reason Rido was banished and removed from the Kuran family was because of what he did to baby Kaname?

http://www.mangareader.net/104-2173-24/vampire-knight/chapter-47.html
^ the "man" Kaname refers there is Rido.

before Rido killed the baby, he was still part of the family as shown in chapter 62.

but after Rido killed the baby, he was placed under the surveillance of the council after that and so is Juri (when she was pregnant with yuki -check special chapter when she attacks kaien, she says she had to escape her watchers to get out)
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2161-31/vampire-knight/chapter-35.html

If the only incident shown to have caused chaos in the family was Rido killing the baby, then that's the reason he was banished from the family.

And if Rido is really banished from the past, the past has to be defined WHAT generation Rido was banished, but like I said he was probably banished in juri and haruka's generation since before that he was behaving well and there was no reason to banish him then until he killed the baby

-About Rido; he resurrects the ancestor and kills baby Kaname- wanting to become the strongest of all since he had planted to take the ancestor’s powers. The ancestor was kept in the basement of the house so that means that Yuuri and Haruka, also new the existence of the ancestor and not only that but they named their son after the ancestor.

Which brings me here in the realization that “Kaname” was a dear person in the family…yes, it should be, in order for Yuuri and Haruka to name their baby after the ancestor, then Kaname should be both loved and honored in his family.

interesting. this might be the reason why Rido knows so much about the ancestor. If his tomb was inside the kuran mansion for tons of centuries and Rido was the first born of the Kurans then he had a lot of time to dig up ancestor's past. It was said a pureblood's true nature is to greed over power and lust, Rido was also driven mad (i don't know why perhaps they just have that tendency) because of power as we see he did not hesitate to kill a baby to resurrect ancestor.

But then, he returns to take princess Yuuki – his main excuse is his love for Yuuri that turned down his initial feelings…

The fact that he returns shows that no matter how much of a secret Yuuri and Haruka might have wanted to keep Yuuki as a secret, keeping her in the basement, that much they failed.

Again from vol.8 stated by Yuuki while she is in Kaname’s arm during Rido’s and Haruka’s fight;

Yuuki: “For a while now, I have been having scary dreams. Someone with one red eye and one blue eye stares at me…He’s always staring me.
Some panels after;
Rido: I came to get your princess that you’ve been hiding so carefully…
Some panels after;
Kaname: I will prepare a place where you won’t have to live in fear…

I think this might support that theorized notion that Yuki has special abilities to see through memories, break forget spells, etc etc. that's how she was able to see Rido.
But I don't buy this, I think there's something more, Yuki also has strange unexplained episodes where she's not aware of what she's doing so probability there's more to this powers than whats shown

But you are right about one point, if Yuuki's importance to the script was a of a really great importance such as the the ex-Queen of vampires, the key to co-existence, the one person that should definetely being protected while vulnerable in order to achieve great things in the future time, that would make her revelation to the other vampires one way road for Kaname, and that would also justify totally his overprotection as her parents overprotection. It's just a theory but if Hino wanted to go that far with her plot, she has made the background story to achieve that.

If kaname is trying to achieve this and its his sole objective in the long run then he also understands that he's putting her at risk, which i think is what his contradictions are about as you have said. I think Kaname was debating greatly between letting Yuki go and risking another loved one's death
or keeping her locked and safe forever until his plans were finished (his last words to her were, "take care of the house while I'm gone" and "If you're good then I'll be back to fulfill your wishes", maybe he was expecting that she will stay home and unharmed)
at which the ultimate is that he lets her go to explore and be exposed to all the danger

Watch how he apologises to Yuuki about "so much weakness", saying that this something from the far past. He feels responsible. But why? and how is that connected to Yuuki's existence at the present time? What does he mean? Can we interpret his words now?

and you are also forgetting that ever since Yuki was human, Yuki always observed that whenever Kaname looks at her, she comments that he looks very sad or lonely. And notice there that Kaname also temporarily falls into a lapse where Yuki's next question surprises him.
Kaname, I think is guilty for some of the things he had started, what those things are I can only guess, but I think it has to do with vampires (ofc lol) And he's sad because Yuki had to experience this...but I don't think that's all there's to it. He knows something about her that he's not fully revealing yet and I think will come in due time

---

EDIT

About Rido …

I thought that he might be from a not Kuran mother based on these hints …

1. On the fact that as a firstborn he probably had the “right” to be the fiancé of Juri … furthermore from Juri’s wording we can see that her grandfather chose Haruka to escort her not Rido, despite the fact that at that time Juri didn’t have any romantic interest for Haruka. Seems like the grandfather wanted to give a little push into their relationship? Maybe not … maybe he did it only out of fear and to protect Juri, but the fact remains … he didn’t choose Rido for that assignment … so his preference to Haruka over Rido is a given and prior the creation of the senate.

2. The madness and Kaname’s miscalculation … If Kaname allowed or didn’t manage to avoid a match between his son and a female PB from the Hiou family, which have heredity in madness, then his guilt for Rido’s existence have a sense.

3. The different coloured eyes as you said … it might be an indication that Rido’s parents weren’t both of them Kurans … the Hiou family has bright colours so the one blue eye can be explained.

4. The engagement with Shizuka … if they were half brother and sister then again is possible to be engaged for that reason, since the intermarriage between siblings is something common for the PBs.

5. Why the grandfather preferred Haruka instead of Rido who was also the first born? <<< This also could be a reason of why Rido hated the ancestor/grandfather>>> cuz he didn’t allow him to engage with Juri.

this makes sense.

Rido's engagement with Shizuka was half serious, I think. Even as they were engaged, Shizuka was imprisoned in a cell and being fed with human prisoners.

Rido loved Juri but never showed an indication. Eventually Juri and Haruka got together and had a first baby, Kaname. I think this is enough to drive him mad, which showed after Juri gave him the baby and he decided to use him as offering.

about Juri and Haruka going to a highschool together. i think it was the grandfather who set this up... its possible as you said, but it also coincides with Juri's wishes to go to a human highschool, and it was grandfather who told Haruka must come along with her. So yes there was a deliberate setup. WHY not Rido, well I think its because he's the eldest and he should stay home? hm we dont know if Rido's engagement with Shizuka was arranged or forced, or did it came before the human highschool or not, if it came before the human highschool then that makes sense that their grandfather was playing matchmaker so juri and haruka finally get together and make babies, since rido would already be engaged to hio

Rido having a Hio mother- possible, but im not really leaning towards this for now. the different colored eyes could make sense, however Rido also has curly hair that looks like Kaname's, if he came from a hio mother then that means a previous member of the Kuran clan also mated with a Hio to produce him and there's no evidence of that