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Α forum dedicated to Hino's Matsuri best-seller manga Vampire Knight and the manga we love

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» Where to Find Vampire Knight Memories Translation
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    is zero manipulating?

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    Post by kanamekuranlover Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:01 am

    First topic message reminder :

    in chapter 83 he clearly said that he wanted to kill kaname and then in chapter 84 when sara told him to kill kaname,he refused saying that he only wanted to hold him and not kill him.was this sudden change influenced by yuuki or he is just manipulating to remain in yuuki's goodwill??was is it?? Shocked

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    Post by nina Sat Aug 04, 2012 1:58 am

    mariangie wrote: Zero's personality doesn't allow him to manipulate most people . He can lie , but he has no art for making other people follow his suggestions easy . Zero is a piece in the V. K.'s Chess Game . Not an strategist .

    Agreed. Zero never gave me the feeling as being cut of for a strategic mind. He is a piece … a useful piece as Takuma underlined in this chapter lol.

    However IF he lied to Yuuki about his intentions regarding Kaname then this indicates manipulation because there would be the factor of the deception. It doesn’t have to be a great scale’s plan to be considered as manipulation … The deception and the lie would have made Zero’s behavior manipulative.

    Juliet wrote: The word "manipulation" is too heavy for Zero's case, I suppose, because it means that he influenced psychologically Yuuki and controlled her behaviour towards a certain direction> he did not manipulate her, because Yuuki had already her as her own goal to catch Kaname and stop him. So regardless of what Zero would do, she would do her effort also.

    Not necessarily … to influence someone towards a certain direction even if you have to gain something isn’t manipulation IF you are honest and letting the other party know your intentions and your gain from this.

    manipulation: shrewd or devious management especially for one’s own advantage.

    And that’s why you (and many of us) believe that >>

    Sara clearly manipulated Zero to get her target that was Kaname;

    Right. Why though? Isn’t cuz Sara manipulated him using deception?
    If not then there isn’t any manipulation from her because she was honest with him … she said clearly that she also wanted Kaname dead for her own reasons and closed a deal with him. If she didn’t deceive him -fueling his existent hatred for Kaname though (Zero wanted Kaname dead from the day one … it wasn’t Sara the one who created these feelings)- then where is her manipulation?

    Thus IMO it comes down to IF there was a lie i.e. deception or not in order to indicate manipulation in every case.

    For example let’s make the hypothesis that they (Zero and Yuuki) managed to capture Kaname and Zero afterwards had tried to kill him.
    Wouldn’t that have been a deception towards Yuuki since is crystal clear that Yuuki ONLY wants to capture him and not to kill him?
    Wouldn’t he have used/manipulated Yuuki and her powers to put down Kaname in order then to kill him?

    Ofc it didn’t happen that way… if not for any other reason just because Kaname released himself or cuz Yuuki wouldn’t let this to happen lol. However this wouldn’t unburden Zero from the deception hence the manipulation IF there was any.

    So we all have to see what Zero will do from now on or if there is gonna be an insight from his thoughts about the situation which will shed more light.

    I’m reading that isn’t in Zero’s character to do something like that blah blah blah … I bet that the same would support some fans if anyone had said awhile ago that Zero is lying. However the story showed that Zero IS capable to lie and moreover to lie for his own advantage … to lie to his superior at work … to lie hindering the investigation for the tablets … to lie in order to protect an evil PB who had turned HUMANS for PERSONAL reasons. << this is the ideal hunter? O.O

    Additionally … his action to drink from Sara … I remember that when some of us had supported that Zero will eventually drink Sara’s blood some fans refused strongly the possibility turning a blind eye to the hints, but this again happened … so I guess Zero did a lot of things recently that in the past would have seemed impossible for his character to do at least for some fans.

    The same goes for Kaname and many of us Yumes … sometime ago we couldn’t believe that Kaname would have left Yuuki … but he did it. Thus we cannot stick to formed opinions when the story develops differently.

    As for the statement

    Zero hasn't shown any intention to kill Kaname, as of now


    I won’t bring portions from the past cuz it will take me hours to gather ALL the lines that Zero declares his intention and wish to kill Kaname but only the most recent which btw it took place moments before the scenes of the last chapter!

    Zero: Bloody Rose suck ALL the blood out of that person
    http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-82-page-17.html

    Kaname: I won’t be killed by you
    http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-82-page-18.html

    http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-82-page-24.html

    Ignoring or turning a blind eye to the recent developments sticking to old notions doesn’t exactly indicate a good understanding of the characters either.

    We are all “biased” on a certain degree since we all have our likings but at least we should support our opinions with facts/scenes which are countering the provided arguments or else a plain subjective opinion doesn’t bear much validity.

    Ps. Who cares if Zero manipulated/lied to Sara??? Even if he had done that if it was for a good purpose he would have done great lol. Sara is a villain and she also wanted to manipulate Zero –something that she did on a certain degree- and moreover for evil stuffs.
    So if he lied to her; letting her believe that he’ll fulfill her evil goals whereas he had something else in mind, good for him … we shouldn’t criticize him but rather congratulate him hahaha


    Last edited by nina on Sat Aug 04, 2012 4:15 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post by juliet Sat Aug 04, 2012 2:25 am

    Not necessarily … to influence someone towards a certain direction even if you have to gain something isn’t manipulation IF you are honest and letting the other party know your intentions and your gain from this.

    manipulation: shrewd or devious management especially for one’s own advantage.

    I agree but if you dig into this deeper you shall see why the term manipulation is heavy;

    The key in order to determine if something is manipulation or not is this factor;

    manipulation is a type of social influence that aims to change the perception or behavior of others through underhanded, deceptive, or even abusive tactics.

    So did Yuuki changed her perception or behavior? no...

    Zero can lie to her yes, could have deceived her yes...but could he have manipulated her? NO..why because it did not change her perception or targets.

    Sara did change the perception that Zero had, actually she turned his reality upside down...

    when Sara approached Zero he had no intention to interfere, his reality was that he should leave the purebloods alone to be killed, but she managed to change that reality into "I need to get revenge for my parents death..I need to kill him"...









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    Post by shizza24 Sat Aug 04, 2012 2:41 am

    I agree with Shoujo and Mid. The notion that Zero's manipulating Yuuki is invalid. Zero has shown the capacity to put aside his hatred for Yuuki's sake. When Kaname first appeared in front of him in 79, the first thing Zero questioned him about was Yuuki's happiness. His revenge came in second. Given that he'd just discovered Kaname's involvement in his tragedy, it was huge for his character because it showed that Zero's feelings for Yuuki take precedence over his desire for revenge. Even Yuuki commented on how Zero had always been wishing for her happiness.

    So now, for him to use Yuuki to obtain revenge is a rather baseless argument given how, 1. Manipulation is not in Zero's character. 2. His feelings for Yuuki are above his hatred for Kaname or revenge. 3. Yuuki already knows Zero's intentions so there is no hidden agenda.

    Zero never stated he wanted to kill Kaname after discovering his involvement in his tragedy. That is because he held back his hatred for the sake of Yuuki's happiness. We could have argued that he might have wanted to kill Kaname since Zero never stated what exactly he wanted to do with Kaname (kill him or restrain him) but 84 made it clear that he wanted to restrain him.

    Sara tried to make Zero kill Kaname saying this was his opportunity to get his revenge . That Kaname was weak .Telling if Zero killed Kaname , this was the only way to get the love of the girl he desired . Here was when Zero noticed if he killed Kaname ; the thing he will in reality gain would be the hate of that same girl . As she loves Kaname . This fact let Zero make a choice he disliked . To not kill Kaname . To drop from his mind to follow the suggestions Sara gave him .

    I don't think Sara's words were regarding Yuuki. She had been constantly mentioning Ichiru's death and Zero's revenge in order to provoke Zero into killing Kaname. Everything in the story isn't necessarily about the LT. Zero was not trying to kill Kaname in order to be with Yuuki. Zero would never think like that. That was neither his intention, nor Sara's when she provoked him. It is only about Zero's revenge.


    @Zero's lying/deceiving: I think Zeki have always been honest with each other (except for maybe back when Zero didn't tell Yuuki he was turning into a vampire). Zero never told Yuuki what he planned to do with Kaname until 84 when he said he wanted to restrain him. So I don't see his lying to her as plausible. Zero would not gain anything from lying either. He wants to stop Kaname, Yuuki wants to stop Kaname. So there is no need for him to deceive Yuuki. Again, deception is yet another trait uncharacteristic of Zero.

    @Yuuki and Zero using each other: I think I would humbly disagree with this. Zeki have a similar goal: capturing Kaname. And hence they are working together to achieve it. It's as simple as that. It has absolutely nothing to do with manipulation or using each other or lying or deceiving. Both Zero and Yuuki know each other's intentions fully well and since their goals coincide, they decided to team up. That's all there is to it, really. Neither is manipulating, deceiving or using the other.
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    Post by juliet Sat Aug 04, 2012 2:49 am

    @Zero's lying/deceiving: I think Zeki have always been honest with each other (except for maybe back when Zero didn't tell Yuuki he was turning into a vampire). Zero never told Yuuki what he planned to do with Kaname until 84 when he said he wanted to restrain him. So I don't see his lying to her as plausible. Zero would not gain anything from lying either. He wants to stop Kaname, Yuuki wants to stop Kaname. So there is no need for him to deceive Yuuki. Again, deception is yet another trait uncharacteristic of Zero.

    @Yuuki and Zero using each other: I think I would humbly disagree with this. Zeki have a similar goal: capturing Kaname. And hence they are working together to achieve it. It's as simple as that. It has absolutely nothing to do with manipulation or using each other or lying or deceiving. Both Zero and Yuuki know each other's intentions fully well and since their goals coincide, they decided to team up. That's all there is to it, really. Neither is manipulating, deceiving or using the other.

    Yuuki and Zero having the same goal; but didn't Zero wanted to kill kaname? what was all this fight about?

    I do not know about the last chapter when he says to Yuuki "Lets go get him", because he may saw that if he keeps trying to kill Kaname, Kaname shall never surrender to him so perhaps he let that go of that idea and placed his hopes to Yuuki to get him, I am not sure what he had intended to do afterwards...

    when Kaname says; I won't be killed by you and Zero that's enough, doesn't it show that Zero came to the scene with more lethal intentions? and even Ruka interferes so that this fight won't turn fatal for any side?
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    Post by nina Sat Aug 04, 2012 3:35 am

    Juliet wrote: I agree but if you dig into this deeper you shall see why the term manipulation is heavy;

    The key in order to determine if something is manipulation or not is this factor;

    manipulation is a type of social influence that aims to change the perception or behavior of others through underhanded, deceptive, or even abusive tactics.

    So did Yuuki changed her perception or behavior? no...

    I beg to differ lol

    You underlined only the influence that aims to change perceptions, behaviors etc but not the way that can this be achieved >> through underhanded, deceptive, or even abusive tactics. << there is the manipulation … to the means.

    Cuz I’m thinking … to influence someone or the society in order to change certain perceptions and behaviours ain’t bad always … great men and women, leaders in many fields science, politics etc didn’t have changed notions and perceptions of the mankind? Ofc they did … sometimes in a good way bringing developments/progress and sometimes in a bad way as well.

    However isn’t the influence that are exerting a priori manipulation but only when this happens through underhanded, deceptive, or even abusive tactics which also can resulted to something bad … a war for example, or racism etc.

    So to come back to our case hahaha a possible lie/deception from Zero towards Yuuki wouldn’t change her goal to capture Kaname I agree cuz this is her goal either way thus by lying or not wouldn’t change Yuuki’s goal BUT would she team up with Zero to capture him if she knew that afterwards he would try to kill him? … in other words would she become an accomplice to Kaname’s murder?
    Perhaps yes because she could think I can stop him (I mean Zero) but in any case she should know about his intentions before she makes her decision.
    And don’t think that even in this case Zero couldn’t kill Kaname … think what IF he would be able to do it … then how Zero's behaviour would be deemed?
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    Post by kanamekuranlover Sat Aug 04, 2012 6:08 am

    nina wrote:
    Juliet wrote: I agree but if you dig into this deeper you shall see why the term manipulation is heavy;

    The key in order to determine if something is manipulation or not is this factor;

    manipulation is a type of social influence that aims to change the perception or behavior of others through underhanded, deceptive, or even abusive tactics.

    So did Yuuki changed her perception or behavior? no...

    I beg to differ lol

    You underlined only the influence that aims to change perceptions, behaviors etc but not the way that can this be achieved >> through underhanded, deceptive, or even abusive tactics. << there is the manipulation … to the means.

    Cuz I’m thinking … to influence someone or the society in order to change certain perceptions and behaviours ain’t bad always … great men and women, leaders in many fields science, politics etc didn’t have changed notions and perceptions of the mankind? Ofc they did … sometimes in a good way bringing developments/progress and sometimes in a bad way as well.

    However isn’t the influence that are exerting a priori manipulation but only when this happens through underhanded, deceptive, or even abusive tactics which also can resulted to something bad … a war for example, or racism etc.

    So to come back to our case hahaha a possible lie/deception from Zero towards Yuuki wouldn’t change her goal to capture Kaname I agree cuz this is her goal either way thus by lying or not wouldn’t change Yuuki’s goal BUT would she team up with Zero to capture him if she knew that afterwards he would try to kill him? … in other words would she become an accomplice to Kaname’s murder?
    Perhaps yes because she could think I can stop him (I mean Zero) but in any case she should know about his intentions before she makes her decision.
    And don’t think that even in this case Zero couldn’t kill Kaname … think what IF he would be able to do it … then how Zero's behaviour would be deemed?

    yeah he used yuuki people.see if he told her the truth that he wants to kill kaname after stopping him and that is it true intention yuuki would never team up with him despite of any horrible things that kaname did to him.here is already proven that she loves kana chan more than zero.she can never kill kana chan and zero kun but she won't agree with another person to kill another.zero did not said his true intentions,he said he wanted to turn him down,really?is that so zero kun?
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    Post by Amaran Sat Aug 04, 2012 7:01 am

    Maybe Zero changed his mind about killing Kaname because he realized that Kaname wasn't trying to kill him? Or because he found out that Kaname's actions now are to fulfill the Hooded Woman's "wish" so if anything Kaname is just deeply troubled? Or because it would hurt Yuuki? Or because he realized killing Kaname is not going to bring his family back?

    There are many possible reasons, all of which are infinitely more probable than Zero lying to manipulate Yuuki. He is not that type of person.

    I think it safe to assume that Zero only wants to capture Kaname. Zero said it himself and Yuuki said that she and him have the same objective.
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    Post by kanamekuranlover Sat Aug 04, 2012 7:40 am

    Amaran wrote:Maybe Zero changed his mind about killing Kaname because he realized that Kaname wasn't trying to kill him? Or because he found out that Kaname's actions now are to fulfill the Hooded Woman's "wish" so if anything Kaname is just deeply troubled? Or because it would hurt Yuuki? Or because he realized killing Kaname is not going to bring his family back?

    There are many possible reasons, all of which are infinitely more probable than Zero lying to manipulate Yuuki. He is not that type of person.

    I think it safe to assume that Zero only wants to capture Kaname. Zero said it himself and Yuuki said that she and him have the same objective.

    ok first zero do not know about hw and kaname's history,he knows a little about hw.yuuki and zero never had same objectives.yuuki is still a child.she thinks by her heart not by her brain.anyone can easily manipulate her.sara proved that.i don't see any development of yuuki.kana chan clearly asked her why she wants a bad girl like sara alive.
    zero cares only about his revenge otherwise he would not let sara enter the hunters association.ok maybe he changes his intention to be in good eyes of yuuki still he is not that good person.i think most people like zero because they haven't read manga and only saw anime zero.anime zero was really good,even i felt bad for him in end but manga zero is not that good person.i am not being biased with kana chan here,my thoughts on his bad things are lot more worse than zero but he proved that he is not saint.he is filthy too.

    i don't want specualation,i wanna know why he just don't state to yuuki that he wants to kill kaname.he doesn't have to kill him for yuuki but atleast he could have told her the truth and being honest about his intentions.he told to yuuki that he wanted to kill her but he didn't and he told kaname that he wants to kill him but lied in front of yuuki.that means in both the situations he lied,he lied to yuuki that he can kill her and he lied to her bout kaname that he does not wanna kill her.


    a pretty manipulating person. scratch

    he is ruled by his emotions.


    and on off topic::::::::
    i don't understand what he serves in the story except being a hindrance for yume.i mean in first arc there was a great use of him,he was needed to kill rido but what is his use in second arc? scratch
    he doesn't seem to do anything but on contrary doing things with yuuki that pretty much make no sense.i don't understand what hino is trying to do. scratch
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    Post by nina Sat Aug 04, 2012 1:22 pm

    @Kanamekuranlover

    yuuki is still a child.she thinks by her heart not by her brain.anyone can easily manipulate her.sara proved that.i don't see any development of yuuki.

    1. Yuuki isn’t a child anymore … she might not be a complete character YET (she wasn’t intended to be one from the start either way in order for us to see gradually her development) but she has matured pretty much and from what I see her actions are not driven from her emotions but rather the opposite … she’s trying to act using her brain. She carries away sometimes yes but for whom? Wasn’t for Kaname? Her feelings for Kaname were disorganizing her and she couldn’t capture him…
    Furthermore she isn’t manipulated from Sara … where did you see that? On the contrary she said that she doesn’t trust/like her even the moment she decided to protect her at the academy. She also discovered that she was the root of the tablets.
    So whatever she did with Sara it was her decision based to the knowledge she had at the moment and her beliefs hence it wasn’t a product of manipulation.
    I could even say that she didn’t fall into Sara’s trap because Sara did try to manipulate her … if you remember Sara approached Yuuki first by intriguing her with Kaname’s “sin” but Yuuki didn’t eat the cheese thus and Sara turned to Zero.

    Additionally she has a much better understanding of what is happening around her compared with the past.
    But we must judge her based on what she knows and not based on what WE know from the plot. The same goes for all the characters ofc.

    but manga zero is not that good person.i am not being biased with kana chan here,my thoughts on his bad things are lot more worse than zero but he proved that he is not saint.he is filthy too.

    2. Zero isn’t filthy or a bad person and neither Kaname.

    We as readers should be able to distance ourselves from the characters’ emotions or their outbursts if not for any other reason just because WE know much more aspects of the plot from what the characters know in most cases (well minus Kaname who knows more than we do lol)

    Personally I find Zero justified to want to kill Kaname and for characterizing him filthy simply because Zero doesn’t know the whole truth. And Kaname didn’t exactly enlighten Zero … on the contrary.
    On the other hand this doesn’t apply for the readers though cuz for them are provided more info.

    Even though I do believe that he acts emotionally and that he shouldn’t have put faith on Sara’s words however his hate now is more justified than in the 1st arc where I was finding his wish to kill Kaname illogical.
    My objection was about his timing and for siding with Sara not for wanting to kill Kaname since he believes that he destroyed his family.

    Therefore even if he lied to Yuuki about his intentions still this doesn’t deem him as manipulating or bad person overall not to mention filthy.

    In VK most of the characters are entering in the grey zone from time to time and IMO this is what is making them more realistic and humanish … not filthy, villains etc but realistic.
    The line between the villains/bad ones and the rest of them is pretty clear IMO and certainly Zero doesn’t belong in this category.
    We should be able to distinguish a bad action or judgment from a character; from characterizing him/her overall by it.

    i don't understand what he serves in the story except being a hindrance for yume

    And when did he become a hindrance for Yume???
    From what I see the hindrance for Yume is ONLY Kaname in this second arc.

    However, I agree that his role in the 2nd arc isn’t so important and neither his contribution on the plot.
    But I’m expecting to see him justifying his role as one of the three keys for co-existence … VK isn’t over yet.
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    Post by kanamekuranlover Sat Aug 04, 2012 3:38 pm

    nina wrote:@Kanamekuranlover

    yuuki is still a child.she thinks by her heart not by her brain.anyone can easily manipulate her.sara proved that.i don't see any development of yuuki.

    1. Yuuki isn’t a child anymore … she might not be a complete character YET (she wasn’t intended to be one from the start either way in order for us to see gradually her development) but she has matured pretty much and from what I see her actions are not driven from her emotions but rather the opposite … she’s trying to act using her brain. She carries away sometimes yes but for whom? Wasn’t for Kaname? Her feelings for Kaname were disorganizing her and she couldn’t capture him…
    Furthermore she isn’t manipulated from Sara … where did you see that? On the contrary she said that she doesn’t trust/like her even the moment she decided to protect her at the academy. She also discovered that she was the root of the tablets.
    So whatever she did with Sara it was her decision based to the knowledge she had at the moment and her beliefs hence it wasn’t a product of manipulation.
    I could even say that she didn’t fall into Sara’s trap because Sara did try to manipulate her … if you remember Sara approached Yuuki first by intriguing her with Kaname’s “sin” but Yuuki didn’t eat the cheese thus and Sara turned to Zero.

    Additionally she has a much better understanding of what is happening around her compared with the past.
    But we must judge her based on what she knows and not based on what WE know from the plot. The same goes for all the characters ofc.

    but manga zero is not that good person.i am not being biased with kana chan here,my thoughts on his bad things are lot more worse than zero but he proved that he is not saint.he is filthy too.

    2. Zero isn’t filthy or a bad person and neither Kaname.

    We as readers should be able to distance ourselves from the characters’ emotions or their outbursts if not for any other reason just because WE know much more aspects of the plot from what the characters know in most cases (well minus Kaname who knows more than we do lol)

    Personally I find Zero justified to want to kill Kaname and for characterizing him filthy simply because Zero doesn’t know the whole truth. And Kaname didn’t exactly enlighten Zero … on the contrary.
    On the other hand this doesn’t apply for the readers though cuz for them are provided more info.

    Even though I do believe that he acts emotionally and that he shouldn’t have put faith on Sara’s words however his hate now is more justified than in the 1st arc where I was finding his wish to kill Kaname illogical.
    My objection was about his timing and for siding with Sara not for wanting to kill Kaname since he believes that he destroyed his family.

    Therefore even if he lied to Yuuki about his intentions still this doesn’t deem him as manipulating or bad person overall not to mention filthy.

    In VK most of the characters are entering in the grey zone from time to time and IMO this is what is making them more realistic and humanish … not filthy, villains etc but realistic.
    The line between the villains/bad ones and the rest of them is pretty clear IMO and certainly Zero doesn’t belong in this category.
    We should be able to distinguish a bad action or judgment from a character; from characterizing him/her overall by it.

    i don't understand what he serves in the story except being a hindrance for yume

    And when did he become a hindrance for Yume???
    From what I see the hindrance for Yume is ONLY Kaname in this second arc.

    However, I agree that his role in the 2nd arc isn’t so important and neither his contribution on the plot.
    But I’m expecting to see him justifying his role as one of the three keys for co-existence … VK isn’t over yet.

    agree nina i wrote an exaggerated comment but i still think he lied to yuuki manipulating her.
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    Post by shizza24 Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:38 pm

    juliet wrote:
    @Zero's lying/deceiving: I think Zeki have always been honest with each other (except for maybe back when Zero didn't tell Yuuki he was turning into a vampire). Zero never told Yuuki what he planned to do with Kaname until 84 when he said he wanted to restrain him. So I don't see his lying to her as plausible. Zero would not gain anything from lying either. He wants to stop Kaname, Yuuki wants to stop Kaname. So there is no need for him to deceive Yuuki. Again, deception is yet another trait uncharacteristic of Zero.

    @Yuuki and Zero using each other: I think I would humbly disagree with this. Zeki have a similar goal: capturing Kaname. And hence they are working together to achieve it. It's as simple as that. It has absolutely nothing to do with manipulation or using each other or lying or deceiving. Both Zero and Yuuki know each other's intentions fully well and since their goals coincide, they decided to team up. That's all there is to it, really. Neither is manipulating, deceiving or using the other.

    Yuuki and Zero having the same goal; but didn't Zero wanted to kill kaname? what was all this fight about?

    I do not know about the last chapter when he says to Yuuki "Lets go get him", because he may saw that if he keeps trying to kill Kaname, Kaname shall never surrender to him so perhaps he let that go of that idea and placed his hopes to Yuuki to get him, I am not sure what he had intended to do afterwards...

    when Kaname says; I won't be killed by you and Zero that's enough, doesn't it show that Zero came to the scene with more lethal intentions? and even Ruka interferes so that this fight won't turn fatal for any side?

    As to the previous fight (ch. 82), we don't know for sure whether Zero wanted to kill Kaname. Plus, Kaname was the one who invaded the HA, so that gave Zero a justified reason to attack, because he had to defend the place.

    Last chapter Zero said "we have to stop that guy" so he never explicitly stated a desire to kill him. And it doesn't matter even IF Zero wants to kill him, that has nothing to do with the topic of this thread: manipulating Yuuki, a claim that is invalid.
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    Post by Amaran Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:47 pm

    To kanamekuranlover:

    Zero does know about Kaname's past.
    http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-82-page-15.html
    And about his connection to the Hooded woman.
    http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-83-page-11.html
    http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-83-page-12.html
    He's listening the entire time.

    You know, people can change their minds. Zero especially since he has said things he didn't mean and has acted rashly and then recollected himself afterwards. He is an emotional person and that is just who he is.
    Even though he was, at the beginning, emotionally compromised and Yuuki clearly saw that, she believes that he will set that aside and do the right thing. Yuuki trusts Zero.
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    Post by aya-chan Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:32 pm

    Zero does not manipulate at a large scale, however he did lie to yuuki, when he said that they shared the same goal. They do not have similar goals – yuuki tries to catch kaname but keeping him alive while zero wants to kill kaname. And zero wanting to kill kaname is proved by manga, through his actions and words.

    shizza24 wrote:Zero never stated he wanted to kill Kaname after discovering his involvement in his tragedy. That is because he held back his hatred for the sake of Yuuki's happiness. We could have argued that he might have wanted to kill Kaname since Zero never stated what exactly he wanted to do with Kaname (kill him or restrain him) but 84 made it clear that he wanted to restrain him.

    Actually zero expressed his wish to kill kaname, and if zero said in chapter 84 that the only reason he drank sara’s blood was just to hold kaname down, then zero lied again.
    Chapter 81, zero: “I will finish him off.”
    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/vampire_knight/v16/c081/31.html
    These are zero’s words immediately after he drank sara’s blood. “finish him off “= kill
    And zero’s words were followed immediately by his actions from the next chapter by attacking kaname with the intention to kill him.


    @Yuuki and Zero using each other: I think I would humbly disagree with this. Zeki have a similar goal: capturing Kaname. And hence they are working together to achieve it. It's as simple as that. It has absolutely nothing to do with manipulation or using each other or lying or deceiving. Both Zero and Yuuki know each other's intentions fully well and since their goals coincide, they decided to team up. That's all there is to it, really. Neither is manipulating, deceiving or using the other.

    I will repeat myself; zero and yuuki do not share similar goal. Zero said to yuuki that they have similar goal, however his previous actions and words proves that he lied to her. Through that lie he deceived yuuki who decided to team up with him in capturing kaname. Would have she team up with zero if she would have know that zero wants to kill kaname?


    As to the previous fight (ch. 82), we don't know for sure whether Zero wanted to kill Kaname. Plus, Kaname was the one who invaded the HA, so that gave Zero a justified reason to attack, because he had to defend the place.

    How I mentioned above, zero’s words from chapter 81, proves his expressed wish to “finish” kaname, hence killing him. and his actions from 82 make justice to his previous saying.
    The reason zereo attacked kaname wasn’t because kaname came into HA but because he wanted to have his revenge.

    Last chapter Zero said "we have to stop that guy" so he never explicitly stated a desire to kill him. And it doesn't matter even IF Zero wants to kill him, that has nothing to do with the topic of this thread: manipulating Yuuki, a claim that is invalid.

    Actually it have connection with the topic of this thead. Because here we are talking about zero lying to yuuki saying that they have similar goals when abviouly they do not have similar goal. Zero’s goal is to kill kaname. Maybe zero did not manipulate at a large scale but at a small one; however still manipulation/deception is.

    bloodredhead wrote:Thing is now Zero has had time to calm and collect himself. He's got a rein on his emotions after he parted from Yuuki when she went after Kaname. He's now thinking with his head more.

    I am confused; after which parting he got a rein of his emotions are you referring to? If you’re referring at the recent one, when he took sara to HA and drank her blood in front of others hunters, I do not see how could he think with his head more. He perfectly well knew what effects sara’s blood have on the ones who drink it, and he still drank the pure blood. I might say that he was reckless, and was ruled by his emotions.

    Zero is a professional hunter, he can't let his emotions rule his job or responsibility and he know's this so I feel this is another reason he changed his standpoint.

    But his recent actions – lying cross, ie covering sara in blood tablets matter; drinking sara’s blood in front of others; attacking kaname due to his hatred proves that zero is quite unprofessional.
    Siding with sara, lying for her, zero threw aside his responsabilities as hunter. Hunters role is to protect humans from the vampires who might harm them, and zero willingly sided with a vampire who harmed the human species – she turned humans into vampires unwinlingly; moreover hunters were suspicious about her. So I do not see how he’s professional, or responsible as hunter.


    Amaran wrote:

    Zero does know about Kaname's past.
    http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-82-page-15.html
    And about his connection to the Hooded woman.
    http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-83-page-11.html
    http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-83-page-12.html
    He's listening the entire time.

    Actually zero does not know about kaname’s detailed past; how yuuki does. What zero heard were just bit of pieces; he knows that exist a connection between kaname and bloody rose, or that kaname is an ancestor – sara mentioned about this is last chapter – but he doesn’t know full details about it.

    @nina - totally agree with you sLo_BigBearHug
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    Post by juliet Sun Aug 05, 2012 12:32 am

    nina wrote:
    Juliet wrote:

    manipulation is a type of social influence that aims to change the perception or behavior of others through underhanded, deceptive, or even abusive tactics.


    You underlined only the influence that aims to change perceptions, behaviors etc but not the way that can this be achieved >> through underhanded, deceptive, or even abusive tactics. << there is the manipulation … to the means.

    Cuz I’m thinking … to influence someone or the society in order to change certain perceptions and behaviours ain’t bad always … great men and women, leaders in many fields science, politics etc didn’t have changed notions and perceptions of the mankind? Ofc they did … sometimes in a good way bringing developments/progress and sometimes in a bad way as well.

    Yes I underlined it because underhanded, deceptive, or even abusive tactics do not stand on their own in order to prove manipulation. On the other hand it is noted by definition that...

    Social influence is generally perceived to be harmless when it respects the right of the influenced to accept or reject and is not unduly coercive. Depending on the context and motivations, social influence may constitute underhanded manipulation.

    So the weight falls in the influence and the change of goals, reality, opinion ect...as it is stated above.

    So to come back to our case hahaha a possible lie/deception from Zero towards Yuuki wouldn’t change her goal to capture Kaname I agree cuz this is her goal either way thus by lying or not wouldn’t change Yuuki’s goal BUT would she team up with Zero to capture him if she knew that afterwards he would try to kill him? … in other words would she become an accomplice to Kaname’s murder?

    No, she wouldn't...

    in order to be an accomplish she would have to actively and willingly take part in it ( i mean the act of murder, because until the murder, there would be no accuse even if both had tried to stop him)...Yuuki in the worst case scenario, would have become the victim...LOL...trying to protect Kaname... I guess, but either way since Zero's intentions never were to control her behaviour and perceptions, and even if he had, he did not succeed he can't be manipulating her (it's kind of sort like abuse there - you need a victim to prove it).


    Perhaps yes because she could think I can stop him (I mean Zero) but in any case she should know about his intentions before she makes her decision.
    And don’t think that even in this case Zero couldn’t kill Kaname … think what IF he would be able to do it … then how Zero's behaviour would be deemed?


    Didn't she know that his intentions from the previous fighting? So one case is that he lied and she believed him but regardless that there is no harm done so there is nothing to accuse here/ the other case is that he lied, she did not believe him and took her own risk, either way he would go, she would go, so what is there to stop? and the third case is that he did not lie and so there is no need to believe him either way. So one against two chances for Zero to have fooled her but nothing happened after all (until now). So is there a manipulation? Right now there is not there even a lie (with the suspicion only that Zero shoots back there with Takuma but it seems to have backfired? not sure)...meaning everyone is innocent until there is proof for the opposite. Let's wait and see in the next chapter we may see/hear and understand more.


    shizza24 wrote:

    As to the previous fight (ch. 82), we don't know for sure whether Zero wanted to kill Kaname. Plus, Kaname was the one who invaded the HA, so that gave Zero a justified reason to attack, because he had to defend the place.

    Last chapter Zero said "we have to stop that guy" so he never explicitly stated a desire to kill him. And it doesn't matter even IF Zero wants to kill him, that has nothing to do with the topic of this thread: manipulating Yuuki, a claim that is invalid.

    in order not to say the same things i think that Aya covers me there...

    manipulation for me is also invalid because it means control over others perceptions, reality of someone ect but he may have lied to her on that instance if his intentions were to kill Kaname and not get him. And since we are chatting over that, this factor would shook Zero's integrity, wouldn't it?
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    Post by ButterflyWingsx Sun Aug 05, 2012 1:09 am

    I can't see Zero's character as being manipulative...maybe it's due to the fact that everyone use him in the story. Why would he become the very thing he hates? We all know he hates Purebloods and how they use and throw away people. That would make him a hypocrite if he did.

    I agree that Zero lied about wanting to kill Kaname, but manipulating is too strong of a word here. At least that's what I think on the matter. So Zero lied to Yuuki, but no he didn't manipulate her.
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    Post by mariangie Sun Aug 05, 2012 4:45 am

    As I said before . There is no way for Zero to be manipulative . He has lied to cover for some of his actions . But none of Zero's lies or actions had changed any original opinion about people's perception of events .

    But Zero did wanted to kill Kaname . This was a huge reason why Sara decided to use Zero as her weapon to eliminate Kaname . Zero's desire of revenge . Including eliminating the one he hated the most . Sara did understand a lot of how Zero's mind worked . She had to give him a valid reason for Zero taking action against Kaname : being the main culprit of Zero's tragic past . What happened at chapter 84 was that Sara tried to refresh Zero's motivation for killing Kaname . When Sara told Zero that if he killed Kaname , the thing in front of him he wanted the most would be his . ( A huge translation mistake in the English online version . ) The thing implied to be Yuuki's . Zero decided to drop the "killing Kaname " attitude because he noticed if he killed Kaname . Zero would lose Yuuki forever . As she doesn't wanted to lose Kaname . Just stop him .
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    Post by Shoujo-Zo18 Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:13 am

    shizza24 wrote:
    juliet wrote:
    @Zero's lying/deceiving: I think Zeki have always been honest with each other (except for maybe back when Zero didn't tell Yuuki he was turning into a vampire). Zero never told Yuuki what he planned to do with Kaname until 84 when he said he wanted to restrain him. So I don't see his lying to her as plausible. Zero would not gain anything from lying either. He wants to stop Kaname, Yuuki wants to stop Kaname. So there is no need for him to deceive Yuuki. Again, deception is yet another trait uncharacteristic of Zero.

    @Yuuki and Zero using each other: I think I would humbly disagree with this. Zeki have a similar goal: capturing Kaname. And hence they are working together to achieve it. It's as simple as that. It has absolutely nothing to do with manipulation or using each other or lying or deceiving. Both Zero and Yuuki know each other's intentions fully well and since their goals coincide, they decided to team up. That's all there is to it, really. Neither is manipulating, deceiving or using the other.

    Yuuki and Zero having the same goal; but didn't Zero wanted to kill kaname? what was all this fight about?

    I do not know about the last chapter when he says to Yuuki "Lets go get him", because he may saw that if he keeps trying to kill Kaname, Kaname shall never surrender to him so perhaps he let that go of that idea and placed his hopes to Yuuki to get him, I am not sure what he had intended to do afterwards...

    when Kaname says; I won't be killed by you and Zero that's enough, doesn't it show that Zero came to the scene with more lethal intentions? and even Ruka interferes so that this fight won't turn fatal for any side?

    As to the previous fight (ch. 82), we don't know for sure whether Zero wanted to kill Kaname. Plus, Kaname was the one who invaded the HA, so that gave Zero a justified reason to attack, because he had to defend the place.

    Last chapter Zero said "we have to stop that guy" so he never explicitly stated a desire to kill him. And it doesn't matter even IF Zero wants to kill him, that has nothing to do with the topic of this thread: manipulating Yuuki, a claim that is invalid.

    I know, Kaname's the one who ran away after killing Lord Aidou, makring him as a dangerous vampire... and what does he do? He comes back and abuses the hunters to literally BREAK IN to the association! Zero, being the next in line to be head of the association of course has the right to be the one to defend it with all he's got. Everyone acts like Zero had no reason to attack Kaname and that HE was the one who found Kaname with intent to kill him... both men were in a fight to the death, Zero defending the hunter association AND himself, and Kaname... god only knows what his intentions were, I think he just wanted to find Sara and expected that Zero would get in the way... so he was just going to kill him, but of course, Ruka stopped him. If you were fighting for your life you would fight with the intent to kill, it's common nature right? O.O And Yuuki didn't team up with Zero til after that anyways... I remember her asking to stay beside him, and i also remember her telling zero to protect sara... i haven't seen anything so far showing that he has manipulated Yuuki. She didn't tell him he had to follow her orders on how he went about protecting Sara, nor does she control all of his actions... I don't think he has to tell Yuuki everything (ahem,like Kaname has been? Can anyone enlighten me of when he told Yuuki everything he is planning lol xD), the only thing she should know for now is that they are on the same side and Kaname is the one they both want to stop at all costs. Like Yuuki said, she can't be confused anymore and if she even thinks about what she'll do when she catches him, she won't be able to do it.... this is why she needs Zero there for her because she knows that at the last minute her feelings might get in the way and stop her from her goal. ^^ ( I remember her using Zero like this before ( I say "using" in a good way here; the way friends rely on each other, they use each other.) ... she had him come with her to confront Kaname about her past because she didn't want to be distracted by him..ah but that was a much more innocent time xD )
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    Post by nina Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:15 am

    I see that you remember only what it’s convenient >>

    Shoujo-Zo wrote: both men were in a fight to the death

    Wasn’t Zero himself who told Yuuki that Kaname didn’t want to kill him?

    I’m putting the portion of Senby’s translation cuz the English scanlation has a mistake there

    Zero: He didn’t want to kill me.
    Page 24
    Zero: He just wanted to manipulate me with that arrogant pureblood controlling power. The trap on the door is still active.
    http://vampire-knight.livejournal.com/999419.html


    So yes Zero … HE was the one who was fighting with the intent to kill Kaname whereas Kaname no.
    As for your interpretation that Zero was defending the HA lol his previous actions showed crystal clear that all he had in his mind was his REVENGE >>

    -Didn’t he lie to Cross BEFORE Kaname’s intrusion at the HA?
    -Didn’t he cover Sara by lying BEFORE Yuuki ask him to protect her for the time being?
    -Didn’t close the deal with Sara at the academy BEFORE Kaname’s intrusion at the HA?

    So please … what you said above contradicts with the facts of the story.
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    Post by juliet Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:24 pm

    I know, Kaname's the one who ran away after killing Lord Aidou, makring him as a dangerous vampire... and what does he do? He comes back and abuses the hunters to literally BREAK IN to the association! Zero, being the next in line to be head of the association of course has the right to be the one to defend it with all he's got.

    He better defend it now that he let Sara inside and brought all this damage to the hunters' side, because if it hadn't been for Zero and his attempt to get a personal revenge out of Kaname, Sara would NOT be in the HA. She used Zero's weakness to gain entrance to the hunters so that they can shield her>

    Zero knew that Kaname was after her and in this case Kaname does not do anything more than what he had been asked to do:

    Aido dono had asked him to stop Sara.

    Cross wish was also for Kaname to interfere with Sara; -Now i have volume 14..

    Kaien says: "We signed a treaty with Kaname, because we recognized him as the head of the vampires so I don't want him to overlook Sara's actions.."

    So the hunters better decide what they want; Zero should also decide what he wants; certain chapters now he speaks of revenge, he tries to Kill Kaname (that's certain), then chews his word when it comes to Yuuki;

    perhaps its a matter of translation, i am reserved, but he brought Sara inside; he got her blood, ZERO is responsible for the attack there and he has his own responsibility > No Sara there> NO HA attack.

    Now from what is it that he is trying to protect the HA from? from the "I want to get my revenge" or from "Why doesn't he stop Sara?" or from "Let the purebloods kill themselves", there has to be some logic in his attitude...
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    Post by kanamekuranlover Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:53 pm

    juliet wrote:
    I know, Kaname's the one who ran away after killing Lord Aidou, makring him as a dangerous vampire... and what does he do? He comes back and abuses the hunters to literally BREAK IN to the association! Zero, being the next in line to be head of the association of course has the right to be the one to defend it with all he's got.

    He better defend it now that he let Sara inside and brought all this damage to the hunters' side, because if it hadn't been for Zero and his attempt to get a personal revenge out of Kaname, Sara would NOT be in the HA. She used Zero's weakness to gain entrance to the hunters so that they can shield her>

    Zero knew that Kaname was after her and in this case Kaname does not do anything more than what he had been asked to do:

    Aido dono had asked him to stop Sara.

    Cross wish was also for Kaname to interfere with Sara; -Now i have volume 14..

    Kaien says: "We signed a treaty with Kaname, because we recognized him as the head of the vampires so I don't want him to overlook Sara's actions.."

    So the hunters better decide what they want; Zero should also decide what he wants; certain chapters now he speaks of revenge, he tries to Kill Kaname (that's certain), then chews his word when it comes to Yuuki;

    perhaps its a matter of translation, i am reserved, but he brought Sara inside; he got her blood, ZERO is responsible for the attack there and he has his own responsibility > No Sara there> NO HA attack.

    Now from what is it that he is trying to protect the HA from? from the "I want to get my revenge" or from "Why doesn't he stop Sara?" or from "Let the purebloods kill themselves", there has to be some logic in his attitude...

    he and yuuki are toddlers in front of kaname,well every vampire is.kaname is the age of their grand grand grand grand ....father plus he is intelligent,smart,hot ah....on your comment yes zero did something which were not right but revenge sometimes blackens mind.
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    Post by Kara Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:48 am

    Okay, I had been gone for quite a while, so it seems that I have a lot of catching up to do on this forum. There’s 3 pages of discussion in this thread that I haven’t responded to, so I had a lot to say within one post here. I’m going to try to cover as much as I can altogether here because I won’t double post. Smile

    So…Fair warning, this post is ridiculously long. Shocked

    And by long, I mean 10-posts-crammed-into-1-post ‘long’.
    But nobody likes reading through massively long chunks of text in one go, so I’ve categorized each of my replies in different sections. This way, you guys can choose to only read the aspects of this discussion that are of interest to you Very Happy

    (Also, I thought that putting a few sections to the side would enhance the readability of my post and minimize confusion).



    *********************************************************
    *********************************************************
    Firstly, I have decided to put my replies to some previous posts in a spoiler tab, because some aspects of the topic were beginning to expand into a new thread of discussion involving Zero that weren’t directly addressing the topic of this thread, but interesting to contemplate none-the-less. If I've quoted someone or myself, I put the quote within two double lines because the quote function doesn't work within a spoiler Crying or Very sad

    So here are my responses to previous posts already in this thread about:

    Zero’s Dedication to the Hunters:
    Spoiler:

    Zero’s Love For Yuuki:
    Spoiler:

    Zero’s Intelligence:
    Spoiler:

    Zero’s Hatred of Kaname:
    Spoiler:

    *********************************************************
    *********************************************************



    Alright, moving on…

    Now to address the prominent theme permeating this thread; Has Zero been manipulating Yuuki in recent chapters?
    This question arose from the ambiguity surrounding whether or not Zero was trying to kill Kaname in Chapter 84, so this is where I’ll begin. While this is definitely relevant to the topic of this thread, I’ve again put the majority of my point of view on this in a spoiler tab so that this post doesn’t get too long and hard to read Razz

    (And before I respond, I want everyone to know that everything I’m about to say is my interpretation of Zero’s stance in recent chapters, as we as readers have not had any ‘inner thoughts’ from Zero regarding his actions).

    The Great Debate lol!
    Was Zero trying to kill Kaname in Chapter 84?

    Spoiler:


    So…did Zero manipulate Yuuki?


    No.

    In the above spoiler tab, I’ve attempted to justify why I strongly believe Zero was not actually trying to kill Kaname in Chapter 84. But even if that were the case, Zero wouldn’t have manipulated Yuuki. Zero would know that he didn’t have a hope of ever convincing Yuuki that killing Kaname is right. So essentially the only other way Zero could have manipulated her would have to be if Yuuki was unaware that Zero wanted to kill Kaname. This is a ludicrous notion.

    http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/78/38

    Zero (To Yuuki about Kaname): “Every cell. His entire existence. Everything is contaminated.


    http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/78/39

    Zero (To Yuuki): “That guy destroyed my all! My family, Ichiru and me.”


    Does anyone here really think that Yuuki was unaware of how Zero felt about Kaname? She’s always known that Zero hated Kaname from the very moment they met and a 12-year-old Zero tried to stab Kaname on sight; this is not some secret knowledge that Zero had been hiding from her.

    In those pages above, Zero outright told Yuuki how he felt. He was not implying it; he actually said it.

    http://www.mangareader.net/104-2169-22/vampire-knight/chapter-43.html

    And in this page here:
    http://www.mangareader.net/104-2169-41/vampire-knight/chapter-43.html


    …Zero told Yuuki that he wants to annilhilate purebloods (it being implicitly obvious that this includes and especially means Kaname).

    So there can be no doubt that Zero has never tried to hide his disgust towards purebloods and his desire for revenge from Yuuki. There was no way for Zero to manipulate Yuuki into thinking Zero didn’t want to kill Kaname even if he tried. Yuuki would never have fallen for it. Evil or Very Mad

    The term ‘manipulation’ contains distinctively negative connotations, which means that for Zero to have manipulated Yuuki he would have had to act in a devious enough manner as to alter her actions for his own benefit. Yuuki hasn’t changed course at all as a result of Zero’s persuasion. She hasn’t decided to kill Kaname, she hasn’t been influenced into thinking that Zero has never done any wrong, therefore her actions haven’t been altered or ‘manipulated’.

    ---

    I think we all can see that Zero isn't acting with the noblest of intentions right now. Maybe his desire for revenge and to avenge his family is understandable. It's probably not the right thing for him to do, but it's understandable (in my POV). He's confused, angry at being manipulated / used, and, as evidenced by his comment in Chapter 79, filled with remorse over the fact that he couldn't keep his brother Ichiru 'out of all of this'. I imagine that his character would be in a lot of pain, and as a result I think Zero has been acting selfishly. But I definitely don't believe Zero has it in him to be manipulative, which is the key question here. Smile Smile Smile

    ……….


    To summarize my POV:

    Zero hates Kaname.
    Zero still wishes to see Kaname dead.
    Yuuki wants to capture Kaname.
    Yuuki recognized that she and Zero share the same goal.
    Zero and Yuuki teamed up.
    Zero never told Yuuki he didn’t want to kill Kaname.
    Zero has never actively attempted to change Yuuki’s actions.
    Zero is not manipulative.

    Based off of events leading up to and including Chapter 84 (but no further) this is my answer to this topic. Some of you may agree, others may not, but as of right now all of this is how I’m perceiving things. Smile

    Now that Zero and Yuuki have decided to tail Kaname together, things may change in the future... Shocked

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      Current date/time is Wed Feb 08, 2023 2:25 am