Hino's mistake...

Can you please explain me a gap that I have concerning the script? In the last bonus chapter we see Kaien saying that "it was then when I discovered love..."

http://www.onemanga.com/Vampire_Knight/59.5/010/

and we know that this is the first time that he meets Yuuri and Haruka but later on he goes again to kill her as we have seen in a previous chapter (when she is pregnant) and she says that she had escaped Haruka's attention to go and see him.

Isn't there a gap between the two chapters? How can Kaien say that he discoreved love but then he goes on killing her? Is there a logic? or is it Hino's mistake?

well yea kaien loves juri its writen in his profile in the fanbook but looks like he wanted to kill juri due of his cursed life , we still don't know what he is cursed and why juri had to do with it , also something at that time kaien was a cold blooded hunter the reason is unknown yet it was dark days those time . plus i have a feeling he might be a twin cursed just like zero and this curse comes from the kuran blood there anstor drank to become a hunter . but still hino didn't give as information about this so its just my theroy ;)

PSDOL wrote:well yea kaien loves juri its writen in his profile in the fanbook but looks like he wanted to kill juri due of his cursed life , we still don't know what he is cursed and why juri had to do with it , also something at that time kaien was a cold blooded hunter the reason is unknown yet it was dark days those time . plus i have a feeling he might be a twin cursed just like zero and this curse comes from the kuran blood there anstor drank to become a hunter . but still hino didn't give as information about this so its just my theroy ;)

So he is going there to kill her despite loving her ...now what does that reminding me off...

juliet wrote:and we know that this is the first time that he meets Yuuri and Haruka but later on he goes again to kill her as we have seen in a previous chapter (when she is pregnant) and she says that she had escaped Haruka's attention to go and see him.

Isn't there a gap between the two chapters? How can Kaien say that he discoreved love but then he goes on killing her? Is there a logic? or is it Hino's mistake?

I was also a bit surprised when reading that extra, because the fact that the first time Kaien meet Juri, she has already become Haruka's wife. I thought their first meeting was way back then like before the marriage.

But since there are Yagari in the story, we see Yagari (who must be normal) grow from a boy to a young man. How old you think Yagari in the story? 6 or 7? max is 10 years old. And now Yagari looks like below 40. So roughly the gap from the photo taken is 30 years. Considering Yuuki is living w Kaien shortly after Haruka & Juri died, that is 10 years and Yuuki herself is somewhat 16 (she spend 5 years of vampire years as kid). We really really dont know whether that time Haruka & Juri first born already being kidnapped by Rido or not. Thus, 30 - 16 = 14 years. Quite a lot of things can happen during the time gap.

I dont know whether after their first meeting, Kaien got close to the Kurans, but then something happen that make him go on the killing-pureblood-mode again, because its mentioned somewhere in the manga that Kaien has lost beloved ones too (dont know if family/ friend/ lover? err unlikely) Because this is what we all assumed before

juliet wrote:Isn't there a gap between the two chapters? How can Kaien say that he discoreved love but then he goes on killing her? Is there a logic? or is it Hino's mistake?

I dont think its Hino's mistake. Seems to me Hino's trying to explain things, because readers already wonder why Kaien doesnt seem to age at all and whether Kaien involved in LoveTriangle with Juri and Haruka. Now there is possibility that Kaien never get close to the Kurans like what readers thought. He got this hatred & intended to kill PBs since their first meeting on the bonus chapter, and still havent change until their meeting in ch45 - http://www.onemanga.com/Vampire_Knight/45/15/, so maybe he actually fall in love but never realize it before because blinded by hate (and ... and .... in the fanbook.. Kaien mentioned that he is in love with a married woman! ) Thats gonna make meeting in ch45 as a turning point for Kaien then, as he was set free from his hatred when Juri entrusted him her children; thus afterwhich he realize his love. This can as well explain why when Haruka & Juri dead, Kaname leave Yuuki with Kaien, thus this scenario can be fitting just like the first scenario above-mentioned. What do you think?

MGM wrote:

I was also a bit surprised when reading that extra, because the fact that the first time Kaien meet Juri, she has already become Haruka's wife. I thought their first meeting was way back then like before the marriage.

But since there are Yagari in the story, we see Yagari (who must be normal) grow from a boy to a young man. How old you think Yagari in the story? 6 or 7? max is 10 years old. And now Yagari looks like below 40. So roughly the gap from the photo taken is 30 years. Considering Yuuki is living w Kaien shortly after Haruka & Juri died, that is 10 years and Yuuki herself is somewhat 16 (she spend 5 years of vampire years as kid). We really really dont know whether that time Haruka & Juri first born already being kidnapped by Rido or not. Thus, 30 - 16 = 14 years. Quite a lot of things can happen during the time gap.

I dont know whether after their first meeting, Kaien got close to the Kurans, but then something happen that make him go on the killing-pureblood-mode again, because its mentioned somewhere in the manga that Kaien has lost beloved ones too (dont know if family/ friend/ lover? err unlikely) Because this is what we all assumed before

juliet wrote:Isn't there a gap between the two chapters? How can Kaien say that he discoreved love but then he goes on killing her? Is there a logic? or is it Hino's mistake?

I dont think its Hino's mistake. Seems to me Hino's trying to explain things, because readers already wonder why Kaien doesnt seem to age at all and whether Kaien involved in LoveTriangle with Juri and Haruka. Now there is possibility that Kaien never get close to the Kurans like what readers thought. He got this hatred & intended to kill PBs since their first meeting on the bonus chapter, and still havent change until their meeting in ch45 - http://www.onemanga.com/Vampire_Knight/45/15/, so maybe he actually fall in love but never realize it before because blinded by hate (and ... and .... in the fanbook.. Kaien mentioned that he is in love with a married woman! ) Thats gonna make meeting in ch45 as a turning point for Kaien then, as he was set free from his hatred when Juri entrusted him her children; thus afterwhich he realize his love. This can as well explain why when Haruka & Juri dead, Kaname leave Yuuki with Kaien, thus this scenario can be fitting just like the first scenario above-mentioned. What do you think?

I must say I am astonished especially with the ages counting. Yagari does look so small back then...perhaps 8 or 9 mamixum I would say (poor guy he lost his eyes), anyway, you are right there is a big time gap other events and meetings may have taken place. It looks like Yuuri trusted Kaien enough in order to live her child with him. It was a kind of arrangement. I am sorry about Kaien, being consumed by hate for all of these years...he so reminds me Zero in a way. Yes Kaien had also said that he also had lost his loved ones (could in the loved ones Yuuri and Haruka be included?, it now seems possible). But the two chapters (bonus and ch. 45, thanks for the page) in my personal view are not enough to depict Kaien's twist, what really happened inside him. It's a long distance from love to hate (unless Hino's character can be viewed superficials), so I would like to see more on the issue...
He tries again to kill her to get rid of his so-called curse? What happened to the curse? He had the idea of a curse that it never existed? M, probably...

Thats just very rough estimates *hide behind sofa* ... You're very perceptive Juliet-san, I like you bring up this question ^^ now I realize that Hino answers several questions that has been debated all this time.

juliet wrote:I am sorry about Kaien, being consumed by hate for all of these years...he so reminds me Zero in a way. Yes Kaien had also said that he also had lost his loved ones (could in the loved ones Yuuri and Haruka be included?, it now seems possible).

I also wonder *LOL*.. translation says loved ones and then there's photo of Haruka & Juri (probably showing whats in his mind at that time)

But the two chapters (bonus and ch. 45, thanks for the page) in my personal view are not enough to depict Kaien's twist, what really happened inside him. It's a long distance from love to hate (unless Hino's character can be viewed superficials), so I would like to see more on the issue...
He tries again to kill her to get rid of his so-called curse? What happened to the curse? He had the idea of a curse that it never existed? M, probably...

That's why I wrote (in my post above); new possibility, different with what we thought before. Up to the extra chapter, most readers always thought that (I dont know if you ever read this theory, but I've read it several times in some forums):
Kaien was close to the Kurans; in love w Juri, involved in love triangle with Haruka to win Juri's love (which in this case will imply Haruka & Juri havent married), but Haruka won & married Juri, thats why Kaien went into the "killing-mode". And possibly Kaien drink some of Juri's blood back then that makes him super hunter (Kaien is no 1 hunter before Zero transformed, only .. he retired ^^)

Now after extra chapter, looks like we can take some conclusion as new possibilities (please do correct me and say your opinions):
Kaien didnt realize that he's in love w Juri until that day when Juri trusted him w her children.
Juri didnt know that Kaien love her. Haruka didnt know that Kaien love her (but of course *LOL*)
Only after Kaien was "saved" by Juri that day (by giving him a reason to live); that his eyes open and by that time he realized his love to her (or admit *LOL*), Kaien then live his new life and keep his love for Juri hidden of course. So in short, that schene in ch45 is what bring them closer, so its just simply hate - love

I just though that the above scenario is more likely possible to happen, rather than having hate - love - hate again - love again scenario (like old one we have) like this: Kaien admitting he fall in love with a pureblood vampire out of nowhere just because that girl "kick" his ass. And then having an affair with that pureblood vampire who at that time already become a wife of another pureblood (I just dont think Kaien is that type; I also dont think Juri is the kind to cheat her husband, not to mentioned the husband is Haruka whom she loves so much).

What happened to the curse? He had the idea of a curse that it never existed? M, probably...

We still dont know much about the curse. Recent development only reveals that the curse is already with him since he was born (powerful and stop aging 200 years ago). Some guess that Kaien is like Zero - Kaien is twin, but he killed his twin in the womb, thus born as powerful hunter. This theory is very possible to happen and I applaud the fan who come up with this theory, eventhough I myself think that there maybe several types of curse, and Kaien's curse & Zero's curse doesnt necessarily need to be the same type.

@ MGM, very interesting points and idea, I really enjoying it discussing with you the plot...

Now considering Kaien's story with Juri, it is clearly depicted that Kaien did not personally knew the Kurans before the "super cute girl's kick" LOL.
So the theory that says that he had been in love with her before she married Haruka ceases to exist. He even says that he had seen her before in certain balls, he was going with Isaya, but that was all, if I remember right. So he just considered her another pureblood vampire. What seems to bring them close is Juri's attitude probably, like Isaya said "Yuuri was like the sunshine", so there he was, gloomy and alone, and suddenly she mets a pureblood girl different from the other vanpires with ideals and far more "shiny" ideas and human perceptions than the rest of the others vampires he knew.
Now, it seems that there is also something that pulls him back, so no matter how he felt for her at their first meeting and from all the meetings that they had in the middle time, he went back into negative thinking again.
At the second meeting (second as we see it) he said that he attacked her in order to get rid of his curse because Kurans are in the heart of the vampire world so if he tries to eliminate them... I do not get his point here. What kind of curse is lifted if you just kill a pureblood or Kurans or anyone?
So the normal question to is "what was he thinking when he attacked her? Did he really wanted to eliminate her or did he wanted her to eliminate him, thus he never strikes back after her attack but lands on the ground offering himself to the plate?
My theory (lol here we laugh)
Could it be possible that "aging" is the curse that he refers to? Immortality? The fact that he lives on and on but he is alone? possible having lost all meaning? feeling desperate that he has lived too far. And what is more is that he is a vampire hunter but apart from purebloods and may the other vampires who age in a slow rate he can not even make a friendship with humans. So he like vampires especially because of his "curse". Perhaps he does not have the power to kill himself or he can't (even though I doubt that myself but in order to strecht my theory). Therefore he arranges a meeting with Yuuri, Yuuri has Artemis, she can finish him off...
Perhaps he wants to be killed by the hands of his loved one... That reminds me Kaname.
Do you remember Kaname who prefers to be killed rather to live the rest of eternity on his own without a loved one by his side and all the vampires who went to sleep and slumber exactly because as Kaname said they may win time but it is time that wins them at the end?
I don't know how his curse begun, perhaps he had a twin but then so great resemblence to Zero is too much for me, it's possible but it does look a bit exaggerated...
And the Yuuri knows his problem and she also knows that he is going to live for too many years so she gives him a role in his life, a meaning, the guardian of her kid. So he founds meaning again, he is not just doing it because he loves her but becauses that way his curse to live is in a way lifted. I never thought about it before, it's all new thoughts here, but since he got Yuuki he never spoke of a curse again. And all of his ideas changed...but that again is just my theory...Tell me how it sounds...

@ Juliet

Its fun discussing with you too ^^

juliet wrote:
So the theory that says that he had been in love with her before she married Haruka ceases to exist.

Aggree. This extra chapter has clarify this.

Now, it seems that there is also something that pulls him back, so no matter how he felt for her at their first meeting and from all the meetings that they had in the middle time, he went back into negative thinking again.

*nod nod* ... or maybe he didnt realize his feeling for Juri ^^, he just surprised to find a very peculiar purebloods couple with peacefull and full of love aura, but didnt try to interpret his feeling further. Seeing how he hated Purebloods and vampires at that time, its almost impossible to change his point of view, with just a kick and love-show. But thats just me, eg. if I was him and hate purebloods so much so that I want to kill them all, I will not change my mind (200 years hatred) just because I see two good purebloods. By the most for me, I will start question myself "are they just pretending or good purebloods really exists?" What would you think/ feel if you are Kaien?

At the second meeting (second as we see it)

yes I agree that probably there are several more meetings uncovered in manga .. but it is also not impossible this second meeting was really their second meeting after their first direct encounter. Besides, Juri did say that its been a long since they met.

he said that he attacked her in order to get rid of his curse because Kurans are in the heart of the vampire world so if he tries to eliminate them... I do not get his point here. What kind of curse is lifted if you just kill a pureblood or Kurans or anyone?

I guess Kurans in particular. any random purebloods would be rather unfitting. Maybe this is because it is said that Kaname is the progenitor?

In Bram Stroker "Dracula", vampires change back into human when the very first vampire (Nosferatu) died. Although, we still have no clue whether Kaname being the first vampire or the first Kuran. If Kaname indeed the first vampire and creator of all the vampire race - there is a possibility that the entire vampire race will cease to exist if Kaname the progenitor being terminated. -OR- change back into human - since Nobles and below have human blood in them. But that said, Yuuki as Pureblood will be gone along since she is never a human and the same case with all the other Purebloods. But we dont know whether Hino will use the same rule as Bram Stroker about the progenitor, we already know that Hino makes her own vampire characteristics different eg. VK vampires have classes (Purebloods, Nobles, C, D & E), Purebloods can turn into human, Nobles below aging etc.

Could it be possible that "aging" is the curse that he refers to? Immortality? .. Perhaps he does not have the power to kill himself or he can't (even though I doubt that myself but in order to strecht my theory). Therefore he arranges a meeting with Yuuri, Yuuri has Artemis, she can finish him off...

I like your theory. It's very possible ^^
Besides, I don't think topic - Kaien has killed his own twin brother in the womb - is a favourable story.
Lets see whether Hino will touch on this subject more.

And the Yuuri knows his problem and she also knows that he is going to live for too many years so she gives him a role in his life, a meaning, the guardian of her kid. So he founds meaning again, he is not just doing it because he loves her but becauses that way his curse to live is in a way lifted.

Second you this ^^

[quote="MGM"]

In Bram Stroker "Dracula", vampires change back into human when the very first vampire (Nosferatu) died. Although, we still have no clue whether Kaname being the first vampire or the first Kuran. If Kaname indeed the first vampire and creator of all the vampire race - there is a possibility that the entire vampire race will cease to exist if Kaname the progenitor being terminated. -OR- change back into human - since Nobles and below have human blood in them. But that said, Yuuki as Pureblood will be gone along since she is never a human and the same case with all the other Purebloods. But we dont know whether Hino will use the same rule as Bram Stroker about the progenitor, we already know that Hino makes her own vampire characteristics different eg. VK vampires have classes (Purebloods, Nobles, C, D & E), Purebloods can turn into human, Nobles below aging etc.

quote]

No, don't tell me about dying theries because I get so easily panicked that if kaname dies at the end I am going :[IMG]http://i9 :[IMG]http://i9 LOL, I am just kidding even though I will go :[IMG]http://i9
Let's hope that Hino will have her own idea about the ancestor's role in the story, I would like to see him finding happiness but right now he is in a big mess. Thanks about Kaien's answer you totally covered me there, and I do hope that Hino will give us a better insight into the future (his story is incomplete as we pointed out).

juliet wrote:
My theory (lol here we laugh)
Could it be possible that "aging" is the curse that he refers to? Immortality? The fact that he lives on and on but he is alone? possible having lost all meaning? feeling desperate that he has lived too far. And what is more is that he is a vampire hunter but apart from purebloods and may the other vampires who age in a slow rate he can not even make a friendship with humans. So he like vampires especially because of his "curse". Perhaps he does not have the power to kill himself or he can't (even though I doubt that myself but in order to strecht my theory). Therefore he arranges a meeting with Yuuri, Yuuri has Artemis, she can finish him off...
Perhaps he wants to be killed by the hands of his loved one... That reminds me Kaname.
Do you remember Kaname who prefers to be killed rather to live the rest of eternity on his own without a loved one by his side and all the vampires who went to sleep and slumber exactly because as Kaname said they may win time but it is time that wins them at the end?
I don't know how his curse begun, perhaps he had a twin but then so great resemblence to Zero is too much for me, it's possible but it does look a bit exaggerated...
And the Yuuri knows his problem and she also knows that he is going to live for too many years so she gives him a role in his life, a meaning, the guardian of her kid. So he founds meaning again, he is not just doing it because he loves her but becauses that way his curse to live is in a way lifted. I never thought about it before, it's all new thoughts here, but since he got Yuuki he never spoke of a curse again. And all of his ideas changed...but that again is just my theory...Tell me how it sounds...

We haven't talk about your theory ever; this is strange!
A. Because i m a huge Cross-fan and you know that
B. This is a very interesting theory!! I like this Kaname-like Cross, very much and it actually suits him!!! Cross is a deadly Hunder, we have witnesed that!!! And we also know that he is abnormally old... If you combine these two with the fact he gave himself to Yuuri, then yes he probably wanted to kill dye...

ariel wrote:

We haven't talk about your theory ever; this is strange!
A. Because i m a huge Cross-fan and you know that
B. This is a very interesting theory!! I like this Kaname-like Cross, very much and it actually suits him!!! Cross is a deadly Hunder, we have witnesed that!!! And we also know that he is abnormally old... If you combine these two with the fact he gave himself to Yuuri, then yes he probably wanted to kill dye...

LOl we didn't LOL? How did I miss that?

Yes I think he did not wanted to age more and being left alone, after seeing all of his people dying from old age whereas he could not. Having no purpose in life he decided to give it an end. How? Preferably by the hands he loved most...He could commit a suicide but perhaps he wanted the last image that he would see to be of the one he loved...Yuuri..but Yuuri knows better than letting him to waste his life and he fits her plans perfectly...

kaein very much resembles to zero,i just hope that just like kaein zero will realize that too that all vampires are not bad specially purebloods and whatever kaname is doing for a good reason.i just hope for that.

It was his intention to kill Juuri before he got to know her, but then he met her and Haruka and kind of fell in love with the two and their love, I suppose. That side chapter is just a flashback sequence.

Dragonsrose15 wrote:It was his intention to kill Juuri before he got to know her, but then he met her and Haruka and kind of fell in love with the two and their love, I suppose. That side chapter is just a flashback sequence.

HE loved juuri but guess because she was married he refrained from every feeling instead of it he developed a healthy friendship with them.