Could Kaname be the antagonist?

First topic message reminder :

Everyone's thinking it, I'm just saying it: Could Kaname be the story's antagonist? Here are my thoughts:

He's always been very mysterious and has done things in the shadows without anyone knowing exactly what. I've never completely trusted him. He's extremely manipulative and very vague when people ask him questions. **SPOILER!!** And with these new chapters with him disappearing and going to kill purebloods, and randomly killing Aidou's dad, I'm starting to think even more that he could be the antagonist **spoilingness is over** I don't think he will end up being the antagonist because too many people love him and would be heartbroken if he was, but if he were to be, I think it would be something along these lines:

Kaname will do ANYTHING for Yuuki if he thinks it's the best for her, even if she doesn't want him to do it, and even if it will end up hurting a ton of other people in her stead. I think that he would begin taking things to the extreme, thinking himself completely in the right. He'd say that he was doing it for Yuuki, to protect her. Or something along those lines. Then in the end, I think Zero or Yuuki will probably kill him, but I'm sure he would die a good person. He'll probably reconcile with everyone. Matsuri Hino wouldn't want him to die bad since so many people love him. She herself loves him! He is quite beautiful, after all.

I think it could have something with his first love, the hooded girl, and how she sacrificed herself for the humans. Maybe he wants his revenge on the pureblood vampires, because they were the ones who made her have to make that choice...? But in all honesty, I think he won't be the antagonist simply because Hino's making it so obvious right now that he's doing some bad things, but since we don't have the whole story we can expect in the future a justification of his actions.

@caela I can’t continue a debate in which I provide arguments based on the story and the other party insists on a baseless personal idea of how the story should continue or bringing a human-ish morality as measure in a world totally different from the actual human world …

caela wrote: Why Sara cannot be the last villian: because Kaname can kill her at anytime.

So??? I’ll repeat myself … the previous villains were wiped out … does that make them less of villains?

And from what I can understand our perception of the story is totally different … You and some others believe that the big threat should be or would be an individual with great powers … mine is that the “big threat”, which if will not change/destroyed the coexistence could never be reached, are these twisted notions >>
- humans=food i.e. inferior expendable creatures
- All the PBs are wretched creatures and have to be annihilated
- PBs with their superior powers should be recognised as sacred and no one should kill/touch them.
- That the vampire society can’t be ruled without the perception of the PB queen bee …
- That isn’t a crime to kill vampires … etc

All of the above are IMO the “big threat” and even if Sara could easily be finished off what makes you believe that the vampires, the hunters, the humans could then peacefully coexist?

Sara represents all the twisted notions from the vampires’ side but are the vampires the only factor in this difficult equation viz an actualized coexistence? No … Or If Kaname is the antagonist and someone will kill him does that mean that all the problems will automatically cease to exist? No again …

So that’s why even if Kaname can easily kill her won’t achieve his goal = a better and safer world not only for Yuuki but for vampires and humans in the end.
Since we assume that this current arc will be the last one in my POV means that the author should provide the final solution to the problems that she highlighted through out her story as I described them above. In other words it can’t have the same resolution as the first arc i.e. a powerful villain which if will be destroyed and everything will take its place cuz it won’t …

Sara is not the greater villain cuz of her powers but cuz her plan has brought on surface all the twisted notions from every party including the hunters and the humans this time … Kaname as we saw has allowed her to unfold it. Why? Because is he Sara’s ally as the hunters thought at the beginning? No … IMO he is using Sara’s plan as an opportunity to bring this big change in their world << the final resolution …

Why must there be another villian: what else can Kaname's nightmare point to? There must be another threat. Even if Rido was alive, the most he would do to Yuuki is sexual assault.

And how Kaname’s nightmare pinpoints that he is the antagonist?
Kaname has said that he is afraid that Yuuki might throw her self into a lost cause i.e. sacrifice herself. Yuuki brought her self against Sara already by saying that she’ll stop her? Is it impossible that Yuuki will try to save lives; lives that Sara will endanger? And she doesn’t know all Sara’s crimes and intentions yet! Didn’t Touma attacked her cuz he believed that she’ll stop the bloody action that he loves? Isn’t she a target from day one?

Aren’t all the above reasons enough for Kaname to be scared?

(Personally, I am arguing that Kaname is a potential villain because no one is agreeing with me that there is definitely another person behind the scenes. Until I get some agreement....)

Do you have hints that there is another villain behind the scenes? Bring it …
If not the argument that you aren’t satisfied from Sara’s evilness is not enough to deem Kaname as the antagonist …
Thus far the actions that haven’t addressed yet are the kidnaps and the auction of the human girl. So if Sara isn’t responsible for these it might exist another villain. But Sara could easily be the master mind for these actions as well…

Also we don’t know why Kaname killed Hanadagi and Hio … what he prevented with these killings etc…

And I ask a simple question … what Kaname being the ultimate villain will resolve? How it will contribute in peaceful coexistence which is the ultimate goal here … Will the hunters view the vampires different? Will the other PBs be nice? Will the vampires stop seeing humans as food? Will the humans stop wanting to explore and make use of vampires’ superiors abilities? What???
Except of course than the contribution to a possible Zeki end by default …

@nina

And I ask a simple question … what Kaname being the ultimate villain will resolve? How it will contribute in peaceful coexistence which is the ultimate goal here … Will the hunters view the vampires different? Will the other PBs be nice? Will the vampires stop seeing humans as food? Will the humans stop wanting to explore and make use of vampires’ superiors abilities? What???
Except of course than the contribution to a possible Zeki end by default …

I am playing devil's advocate: Honestly I do not think Kaname is the villian.

Sara's continued existence is due to Kaname allowing her to live. He had the option of killing Sara as soon as he started publicly killing other purebloods. She is not a ancestor vampire (not that powerful) nor is Kaname held by the restrictions of being a responsible vampire leader anymore: he went rogue. I do not know for what purpose he is doing this. To give someone for Yuuki to practice on? Because Sara has other pureblood allies that Kaname is targeting (related to greatest crime in history of purebloods?) But whatever the case, Sara by herself is not a real threat.

Real past threats:

(1) Shizuka: because Kaname was unwilling to take public participation against Shizuka due to the need of appearances; the Senate was watching and Kaname was not ready to kill the senate yet. Also, we do not know how much of a threat Shizuka would have been personally to Kaname because Zero was the one who miraculous injured her against a blood bond. (Though Kaname is stronger.)

(2) Rido: Kaname's blood bond.

Hints at another villain:
(1) greatest crime in the history of the purebloods. Aido-dono hinted that it was a vampire sacrifice.
(2) Kaname's nightmare
(3) lack of threats that we can see that would be powerful enough to rival Kaname.
(4) Kaname doing alot more than dismantling the senate and hunter association plus restarting some new government. The pureblood killings of sleeping vampires who were not active threats.
(5) What can the humans do really? More blood tablet chaos?
(6) why would Yuuki feel a need to sacrifice herself?

Kaname always had the option of staying with Yuuki and ruling the vampires like in times past. According to Rido, eleven years ago, Kaname is "the strongest monster" (chapter 38). What can scare the strongest monster?

(chapter 65):

Aido-dono said: We seem so cruel and hesitant to sacrifice even one for the greater good...
Kaname: If you are talking about the counsel, I've got nothing to say, they've got what they deserved.
Aido-dono: No, something even earlier, something that happened a little before Shizuka went missing, you witnessed the most sinful crime in the history of purebloods.

To me, there is enough evidence to hint at:
(1) unknown badguy pureblood or purebloods.
(2) legitamate threat to Yuuki that Kaname is scared of that is not a vampire we have already seen.
(3) Why would Kaname just sit back and watch the worst crime in the history of purebloods? Was he not powerful enough to stop it? Also, after thousands of years of violent vampire history, why does this crime get the notorious honor of being the worst?
(4) I checked the translation myself and I think it wasn't "observed" nor "participated". I am leaning towards "joined in the blame of" the most sinful crime in the history of purebloods. But (3) is still valid.

I have no proof but suspicions.

So the "Kaname = future bad guy theory" is still alive, but without much of a heartbeat.

Also, I keep my Zero fantasies in the fanclub, not out here.

nina wrote:
And I ask a simple question … what Kaname being the ultimate villain will resolve? How it will contribute in peaceful coexistence which is the ultimate goal here … Will the hunters view the vampires different? Will the other PBs be nice? Will the vampires stop seeing humans as food? Will the humans stop wanting to explore and make use of vampires’ superiors abilities? What???
Except of course than the contribution to a possible Zeki end by default …

Why would a villain do those things? thats a heroes job. who cares about the other pbs? who is even left? none of them care they're being killed off, they're just fodder. and you forgot about vampire repression and lack of ability to defend themselves.

kaname being villain would be awesome cos of the dramaz and tension. he's got mega powers, he's the smartest and most of all, he really believes what he's doing, he's willing to do anything to reach his goals. he can wield an anti-vampire weapon too, he's the oldest around, the most knowledgeable and the only one who can stop him is the main character yuuki. plus she would have trouble with the idea of going against kaname since she just wants to support him.

and in the end, yuuki can save kaname too. especially if its rido influencing kaname or making him not think straight. so yuuki has to figure it out, exorcise rido and have kaname back.

but maybe thats too predictable. maturi hino does like to shake things up and make twists.

Knightmare wrote:Why would a villain do those things? thats a heroes job. who cares about the other pbs? who is even left? none of them care they're being killed off, they're just fodder. and you forgot about vampire repression and lack of ability to defend themselves.

kaname being villain would be awesome cos of the dramaz and tension. he's got mega powers, he's the smartest and most of all, he really believes what he's doing, he's willing to do anything to reach his goals. he can wield an anti-vampire weapon too, he's the oldest around, the most knowledgeable and the only one who can stop him is the main character yuuki. plus she would have trouble with the idea of going against kaname since she just wants to support him.

and in the end, yuuki can save kaname too. especially if its rido influencing kaname or making him not think straight. so yuuki has to figure it out, exorcise rido and have kaname back.

but maybe thats too predictable. maturi hino does like to shake things up and make twists.

From my POV, I don't believe Kaname would ever become a villain. To me, it doesn't make complete sense of it and ruin the overall story. If you think he's doing anything to reach his goals, what are his goals? If Kaname ever does appear to become a villain (which I highly doubt it except Sara is the TRUE villain), there would be no peace and the entire vampire race would become predators and see humans as their food.

Knightmare:
kaname being villain would be awesome cos of the dramaz and tension.
he's got mega powers, he's the smartest and most of all, he really
believes what he's doing, he's willing to do anything to reach his
goals. he can wield an anti-vampire weapon too, he's the oldest around,
the most knowledgeable and the only one who can stop him is the main
character yuuki. plus she would have trouble with the idea of going
against kaname since she just wants to support him.

and in the
end, yuuki can save kaname too. especially if its rido influencing
kaname or making him not think straight. so yuuki has to figure it out,
exorcise rido and have kaname back.

but maybe thats too predictable. maturi hino does like to shake things up and make twists.

I was going to say one thing, and you already said it.

Exactly that Kaname being villain is too damn obvious it's pretty much like saying the world is round. Everything he does "looks bad". Everything about him is bad. For Hino to make him into this kind of character, this obvious character, all of a sudden after the enigma he presents is too obvious and obtuse. It's like taking what the author dropped on the ground and eating it without questioning if it's edible, it could be anything and it can be poop.
He makes a lot of effort giving his best to downgrade his own image, so others will see him as "bad". His outward intentions, and moreover the appearance of Rido, the former bad guy, as someone attached to him even in death and even became part of his own blood, doubles and triples the image that he is the antagonist. Nearly half of the population of the fandom has been "getting this feeling since the first arc" because of the ways Kaname acts. The judgment often boils down to judging him based on his actions, not intent. Therefore, what is obvious with his actions serves as the label to judge him as possible antagonist. IMO, same perception as the first arc. And not very smart.

This time, the "read between the lines" technique applies in "reading between his actions". The ironic thing is, while the other fandom massively does this with Zero by reading between his actions to continuously defend him time and again, why its seldom done with Kaname? Simply that his actions are deeper to fathom and would require more than reading in between, but reading the entire manga plot. So to understand Kaname more, you have to deal with the whole book. He can be the book itself. And still even the ones who understand him does not know everything. Simply because the plot was not yet revealed completely. And the answer is simply that, not everything was revealed.

Yes Kaname has the ingredients to become a great antagonist. But the fact remains, he has what it takes to be the only hope that the plot has in order to be saved.

Kaname's name by itself, means "pivot" or "door". The meaning is very revelational, and for anyone who is thinking well, the name was given to him to mean he will be the one who will open or close doors for the other characters in the story. And this, is in fact, a fact, proven in the first arc. He had opened a door for ZeroYuki's relationship, he opened the door for night class, among other things. Who's to say his actions won't be opening a door? No one, unless you can see the future by judging him this early

The other characters were proven to be useless, power wise and inner strength wise. Kaname is the only one who can do something for the plot, and he has always done this even in the past, using this same ingredients that also make him an "awesome antagonist".

In conclusion, Kaname is both antagonist and protagonist in this story. It cannot just be one. If you exclude the other, you exclude the things he had done for the plot, and potentially the things he can do for the future.

Time and time again, the line between good and evil is blurred in vampire knight. So what you see as wrong may turn out to be the right thing done after all. What was right may be the wrong thing at the end of the day. Therefore at the end of the day, its not about morality, but the practicality of their decisions.
For example, Kaien saved Touma and even Sara because of his belief. Was it the right thing?
The hunters believe killing purebloods would solve their problem. Is it moral?
There are questionable issues raised. If you look at vampire knight from a religious, moral view, you would find lots of things wrong with it. Therefore, I look at it from an atheist point of view.
The bottom line--what Kaname is doing may be wrong or right. We don't know, yet. As his intentions was not yet said.

For now, this is all just a jump start to judging a tiny piece of the picture in a jigsaw puzzle.

nina:
If Kaname turned to be the ultimate villain who’s gonna stop him? Who
has the power since as you also said above he is the strongest PB i.e.
the strongest creature

Ohhh please let it be YUKI, the weakest pureblood of all.
the weakest of them all stops the strongest pureblood. That would be a great seller.
Ok seriously, maybe the combined forces of the hunters, Yuki and Zero all posing in power ranger outfits with the tag "we're the good guys" might defeat him.
who else can go against Kaname? Maybe the pureblood families he killed, oh and let's not forget, the rabid fangirls who want him dead, carrying pitchforks and torches as weapons.
Kaname VS the entire vk world cast plus a few others *coughcough*

Yuki sits on the corner with a popcorn on her hand, "You handle killing him. I prefer to be the weakest"
or she may turn out to be the uber strongest of the strongest of them all, we never know. She may turn out to be Kaname's mother.
Yuki: bad child! you didn't learn from me, your master?
Kaname: I'm sorry mommy, I didn't mean to misuse the lessons you've taught me
Yuki: *pulls him by the ear* you're going to bed without supper!



ok seriously that is the point people miss a lot.. Kaname is the strongest and better candidate to be villain, but ok, who will defeat him? Maybe his "enemies" will have to bring catapults and battering rams. And all it took, really, to defeat them, was a wave of his hand, and everyone including Yuki, will become his puppets.
Kaname: bow down you lowlifes! This is for making me the "greatest villain" ever. That poll was a joke, but the mangaka took it seriously. Now, I will crush vampire knight manga and you will all live a life of poverty with me as your god!

let's not forget how he controlled Touma there. And he was a pureblood. Probably its not exaggerated to say , He can control everyone if he wanted. Now its up to Yuki, the weakest, to overpower the strongest. Maybe she will have to eat all other purebloods in a standing buffet so she can stand up to him as "equal" and defeat him.

but she can't so she will enlist Zero's aid, the level D with the level E monster sleeping in the coffin. Two against one, maybe more.

oh no, its not fair that Yuki will charm Kaname to win. Not a very fair fight.

anyway the point is, it sounds like another VK story if Kaname will be the villain. From what you read above, its not vampire knight i know, its an excerpt from fanfiction

Kuran prince:
If you think he's doing anything to reach his goals, what are his goals?

Exactly. unless someone knows about it by going to the future and saying "it was bad".
I hear this "Oh he's bad because he doesn't care what he does just to get what he wants"
Simplistic. If that's the case, anyone who does anything to do what they want is bad. Zero is hurting other people because he thinks his anger is justified, it applies in the same manner. Kaname is doing what he does because he thinks his actions will do something.

I prefer to call it Determination. A learning achieved through years of suffering will do that to a person. The fact remains he is doing something we don't know where will lead. At the end of the day, the realistic reasoning is you can't judge him as a person with his actions until the final product of his actions will result in something.

sweetsolace wrote:

nina:
If Kaname turned to be the ultimate villain who’s gonna stop him? Who
has the power since as you also said above he is the strongest PB i.e.
the strongest creature

Ohhh please let it be YUKI, the weakest pureblood of all.
the weakest of them all stops the strongest pureblood. That would be a great seller.
Ok seriously, maybe the combined forces of the hunters, Yuki and Zero all posing in power ranger outfits with the tag "we're the good guys" might defeat him.
who else can go against Kaname? Maybe the pureblood families he killed, oh and let's not forget, the rabid fangirls who want him dead, carrying pitchforks and torches as weapons.

i dunno where the story is going if kaname isn't the bad guy is my problem. hes sitting off to the side tolerating bad guys like sara and make me feel like he can squash her like a bug, theres no challenge for him.

in any good manga with action, the villain is always the best and hardest to defeat and the hero has to be way weaker in order to make it a challenge.

if kaname had started a war with all the purebloods in trying to...protect the world? then maybe i could see him staying good, but they don't care at all and just seem to be running for cover. the hunters don,t care. the only ones who want to stop him are yuuki and kaien. sara's fine with it as long as she can escape being squashed. where is the story at?

you guys say, we don't know where kaname is going with this, so no judging. but whats the point if he's just trying to protect god knows what?

Knightmare wrote:

sweetsolace wrote:

nina:
If Kaname turned to be the ultimate villain who’s gonna stop him? Who
has the power since as you also said above he is the strongest PB i.e.
the strongest creature

Ohhh please let it be YUKI, the weakest pureblood of all.
the weakest of them all stops the strongest pureblood. That would be a great seller.
Ok seriously, maybe the combined forces of the hunters, Yuki and Zero all posing in power ranger outfits with the tag "we're the good guys" might defeat him.
who else can go against Kaname? Maybe the pureblood families he killed, oh and let's not forget, the rabid fangirls who want him dead, carrying pitchforks and torches as weapons.

i dunno where the story is going if kaname isn't the bad guy is my problem. hes sitting off to the side tolerating bad guys like sara and make me feel like he can squash her like a bug, theres no challenge for him.

in any good manga with action, the villain is always the best and hardest to defeat and the hero has to be way weaker in order to make it a challenge.

if kaname had started a war with all the purebloods in trying to...protect the world? then maybe i could see him staying good, but they don't care at all and just seem to be running for cover. the hunters don,t care. the only ones who want to stop him are yuuki and kaien. sara's fine with it as long as she can escape being squashed. where is the story at?

you guys say, we don't know where kaname is going with this, so no judging. but whats the point if he's just trying to protect god knows what?

I think he's just trying to protect Yuuki from all the bad guys that caused his past love death!

Its possible, but I think that there is an unknown Pureblood that we havent seen yet...An enemy that is stronger than Kaname...

perhaps the solution is the OP plan that he had where the HW had asked him to stop the ones that were changing people even in cases that seemed to be "voluntarily"...

that's Sara's case here and I do not know who else from the purebloods could have been an ally to this kind of behavior; example Hio's familly had given Shizuka to the council and she was served humans for lunch...later on the council had even offered to Kaname humans for consolidation that they wanted to be changed and he accepted to comply back then in order not to tell his intentions...

meaning through these centuries the purebloods and even the lower rank vampires that co-sided with the council never perceived humans as something more than food or even an army turning humans as a mean to accomplish certain objectives...

and a part of that responsibility that not all purebloods/vampires with such intentions were not suppressed and limited from acting against humans is also falling mainly to the council and the ones that supported Asato's position to benefit their interests but also to the hunters ...

what I saw in the second arc is that the hunters side was expecting mostly Kaname to act...against Sara while they had clues and they could have also done a better job. This tolerance to purebloods or indifference from where it comes? Or when did it start?

The first hunters were quick to act and fought alongside with Kaname, so what messed the balance and the roles? i think that there are no other guardians that the Kurans that bridged the gap between the hunters inadequacy and the evil vampires intentions.

But now with Kaname going "berserk", the leadership left actually open to all, the hunters proving themselves intentionally inadequate to fulfill their roles of the past and fight for the people's safety independently from the pureblood's intentions (just do their job, what do they care what Kaname does?) and the rest of the vampires dealing with their own previous blind faith on the "queen bee" that actually makes them victims to any pureblood's intentions and proved fatally wrong (intentionally from Kaname), perhaps its time that everybody should take their responsibilities and face what they have become without safety nets and finally also the Kurans to be freed from this role that always makes them a living target?

There are worst evils going on in this society, far worst that Kaname, that lasted for centuries and resumed in innocent's sacrifices and in excused murders. Under this light is Kaname the antagonist? I see all others occupying this spot but him.

juliet wrote:perhaps the solution is the OP plan that he had where the HW had asked him to stop the ones that were changing people even in cases that seemed to be "voluntarily"...

that's Sara's case here and I do not know who else from the purebloods could have been an ally to this kind of behavior; example Hio's familly had given Shizuka to the council and she was served humans for lunch...later on the council had even offered to Kaname humans for consolidation that they wanted to be changed and he accepted to comply back then in order not to tell his intentions...

meaning through these centuries the purebloods and even the lower rank vampires that co-sided with the council never perceived humans as something more than food or even an army turning humans as a mean to accomplish certain objectives...

and a part of that responsibility that not all purebloods/vampires with such intentions were not suppressed and limited from acting against humans is also falling mainly to the council and the ones that supported Asato's position to benefit their interests but also to the hunters ...

what I saw in the second arc is that the hunters side was expecting mostly Kaname to act...against Sara while they had clues and they could have also done a better job. This tolerance to purebloods or indifference from where it comes? Or when did it start?

The first hunters were quick to act and fought alongside with Kaname, so what messed the balance and the roles? i think that there are no other guardians that the Kurans that bridged the gap between the hunters inadequacy and the evil vampires intentions.

But now with Kaname going "berserk", the leadership left actually open to all, the hunters proving themselves intentionally inadequate to fulfill their roles of the past and fight for the people's safety independently from the pureblood's intentions (just do their job, what do they care what Kaname does?) and the rest of the vampires dealing with their own previous blind faith on the "queen bee" that actually makes them victims to any pureblood's intentions and proved fatally wrong (intentionally from Kaname), perhaps its time that everybody should take their responsibilities and face what they have become without safety nets and finally also the Kurans to be freed from this role that always makes them a living target?

There are worst evils going on in this society, far worst that Kaname, that lasted for centuries and resumed in innocent's sacrifices and in excused murders. Under this light is Kaname the antagonist? I see all others occupying this spot but him.

Perfectly said Juliet! I agree fully.

Divine Rose wrote:

juliet wrote:perhaps the solution is the OP plan that he had where the HW had asked him to stop the ones that were changing people even in cases that seemed to be "voluntarily"...

that's Sara's case here and I do not know who else from the purebloods could have been an ally to this kind of behavior; example Hio's familly had given Shizuka to the council and she was served humans for lunch...later on the council had even offered to Kaname humans for consolidation that they wanted to be changed and he accepted to comply back then in order not to tell his intentions...

meaning through these centuries the purebloods and even the lower rank vampires that co-sided with the council never perceived humans as something more than food or even an army turning humans as a mean to accomplish certain objectives...

and a part of that responsibility that not all purebloods/vampires with such intentions were not suppressed and limited from acting against humans is also falling mainly to the council and the ones that supported Asato's position to benefit their interests but also to the hunters ...

what I saw in the second arc is that the hunters side was expecting mostly Kaname to act...against Sara while they had clues and they could have also done a better job. This tolerance to purebloods or indifference from where it comes? Or when did it start?

The first hunters were quick to act and fought alongside with Kaname, so what messed the balance and the roles? i think that there are no other guardians that the Kurans that bridged the gap between the hunters inadequacy and the evil vampires intentions.

But now with Kaname going "berserk", the leadership left actually open to all, the hunters proving themselves intentionally inadequate to fulfill their roles of the past and fight for the people's safety independently from the pureblood's intentions (just do their job, what do they care what Kaname does?) and the rest of the vampires dealing with their own previous blind faith on the "queen bee" that actually makes them victims to any pureblood's intentions and proved fatally wrong (intentionally from Kaname), perhaps its time that everybody should take their responsibilities and face what they have become without safety nets and finally also the Kurans to be freed from this role that always makes them a living target?

There are worst evils going on in this society, far worst that Kaname, that lasted for centuries and resumed in innocent's sacrifices and in excused murders. Under this light is Kaname the antagonist? I see all others occupying this spot but him.

Perfectly said Juliet! I agree fully.

Yep yep ... I second everything me too!

nina wrote:

Divine Rose wrote:

juliet wrote:perhaps the solution is the OP plan that he had where the HW had asked him to stop the ones that were changing people even in cases that seemed to be "voluntarily"...

that's Sara's case here and I do not know who else from the purebloods could have been an ally to this kind of behavior; example Hio's familly had given Shizuka to the council and she was served humans for lunch...later on the council had even offered to Kaname humans for consolidation that they wanted to be changed and he accepted to comply back then in order not to tell his intentions...

meaning through these centuries the purebloods and even the lower rank vampires that co-sided with the council never perceived humans as something more than food or even an army turning humans as a mean to accomplish certain objectives...

and a part of that responsibility that not all purebloods/vampires with such intentions were not suppressed and limited from acting against humans is also falling mainly to the council and the ones that supported Asato's position to benefit their interests but also to the hunters ...

what I saw in the second arc is that the hunters side was expecting mostly Kaname to act...against Sara while they had clues and they could have also done a better job. This tolerance to purebloods or indifference from where it comes? Or when did it start?

The first hunters were quick to act and fought alongside with Kaname, so what messed the balance and the roles? i think that there are no other guardians that the Kurans that bridged the gap between the hunters inadequacy and the evil vampires intentions.

But now with Kaname going "berserk", the leadership left actually open to all, the hunters proving themselves intentionally inadequate to fulfill their roles of the past and fight for the people's safety independently from the pureblood's intentions (just do their job, what do they care what Kaname does?) and the rest of the vampires dealing with their own previous blind faith on the "queen bee" that actually makes them victims to any pureblood's intentions and proved fatally wrong (intentionally from Kaname), perhaps its time that everybody should take their responsibilities and face what they have become without safety nets and finally also the Kurans to be freed from this role that always makes them a living target?

There are worst evils going on in this society, far worst that Kaname, that lasted for centuries and resumed in innocent's sacrifices and in excused murders. Under this light is Kaname the antagonist? I see all others occupying this spot but him.

Perfectly said Juliet! I agree fully.

Yep yep ... I second everything me too!

I third that

aya-chan wrote:

nina wrote:

Divine Rose wrote:

Perfectly said Juliet! I agree fully.

Yep yep ... I second everything me too!

I third that

I most DEFINITELY fourth that!!!!!!

juliet wrote:perhaps the solution is the OP plan that he had where the HW had asked him to stop the ones that were changing people even in cases that seemed to be "voluntarily"...

that's Sara's case here and I do not know who else from the purebloods could have been an ally to this kind of behavior; example Hio's familly had given Shizuka to the council and she was served humans for lunch...later on the council had even offered to Kaname humans for consolidation that they wanted to be changed and he accepted to comply back then in order not to tell his intentions...

meaning through these centuries the purebloods and even the lower rank vampires that co-sided with the council never perceived humans as something more than food or even an army turning humans as a mean to accomplish certain objectives...

and a part of that responsibility that not all purebloods/vampires with such intentions were not suppressed and limited from acting against humans is also falling mainly to the council and the ones that supported Asato's position to benefit their interests but also to the hunters ...

what I saw in the second arc is that the hunters side was expecting mostly Kaname to act...against Sara while they had clues and they could have also done a better job. This tolerance to purebloods or indifference from where it comes? Or when did it start?

The first hunters were quick to act and fought alongside with Kaname, so what messed the balance and the roles? i think that there are no other guardians that the Kurans that bridged the gap between the hunters inadequacy and the evil vampires intentions.

But now with Kaname going "berserk", the leadership left actually open to all, the hunters proving themselves intentionally inadequate to fulfill their roles of the past and fight for the people's safety independently from the pureblood's intentions (just do their job, what do they care what Kaname does?) and the rest of the vampires dealing with their own previous blind faith on the "queen bee" that actually makes them victims to any pureblood's intentions and proved fatally wrong (intentionally from Kaname), perhaps its time that everybody should take their responsibilities and face what they have become without safety nets and finally also the Kurans to be freed from this role that always makes them a living target?

There are worst evils going on in this society, far worst that Kaname, that lasted for centuries and resumed in innocent's sacrifices and in excused murders. Under this light is Kaname the antagonist? I see all others occupying this spot but him.

This is one probably the best post I've seen recently Juliet and I enjoyed reading it.

About the possibility of Kaname being the antagonist: I already stated my opinion on this thread that I see it as a small possibility and from a fan's point of view, an unsatisfying read and a poor use of Kaname's mysterious character.

What I wish to comment on: The Hunter's Association's current policy of inaction may be motivated by less than good morals........but they are limited in their options. Not all their members are at the level of Zero.

Examples of the weaknesses of Hunters:
(1) Two members of the Kiryuu family, a distinguished hunter family, were easily killed by Shizuka.
(2) Kaito's brother was made into a vampire by a pureblood.
(3) Shizuka was on the Hunter Association list for years and was only killed by Kaname, not a hunter.
(4) The Hunter Association did not protect Zero from the vampire Senate's punishment for "killing Shizuka."

Even if the hunters wanted to be a larger force for peace in VK, ultimately, hunters are weaker than vampires. The tolerance and indifference that the hunters display towards vampires originate from that power imbalance. The balance between vampires and hunters was destined to be unequal from the beginning....something that Kaname probably foresaw....and might be trying to fix right now.

caela wrote:
(3) Shizuka was on the Hunter Association list for years and was only killed by Kaname, not a hunter.
(4) The Hunter Association did not protect Zero from the vampire Senate's punishment for "killing Shizuka."

Yagari: “The senate plans to execute Zero! And the hunter society is just going to stand by and watch?!”
President of HA: “If Zero killed a PB there’s nothing we can do.”
Yagari: “That PB princess should have been put on our list long ago! Why does Zero have to die?”
President: “Yagari … what would happen if we condoned the killing of PBs? You know the vampire society would no longer be able to maintain law and order.” (chap.22)

So according to Yagari’s statement Shizuka wasn’t in the hunters list despite that it was known that she killed 2 hunters. I don’t remember if there is any statement that says otherwise.

Now … this is one of the problems which I suspect originates from the so called “sanctity of the PBs” >> the queen bee. In other words the PBs despite the atrocities that may have done were untouchable in the name of the maintenance of law and order in vampire society.

Juliet wrote: This tolerance to purebloods or indifference from where it comes? Or when did it start?

The first hunters were quick to act and fought alongside with Kaname, so what messed the balance and the roles? i think that there are no other guardians that the Kurans that bridged the gap between the hunters inadequacy and the evil vampires intentions.

You are right. My assumption is that all these started after the establishment of the senate.
As you said Kaname and probably other PBs ancestors fought in the past alongside with hunters against PBs who changed humans and aimed to total dominance. Then the Kurans became the royal family and ruled for X years. I suppose that during their governing such ways like turning humans wasn’t allowed or acceptable neither the notion that PBs are sacred creatures.

So it’s very likely this had changed when the senate took control hence established the notion of the “sacred queen bee”, a notion supposedly necessary for the peace into vampires’ society while in reality I guess it was an exchange between the senate and the PBs for their own benefit. Somewhere along the way the hunters got involved into this filthy transaction.

I done believe he is because we already have Sara she is evil enough and Kaname is trying to stop her and he has his reason for killing her and all the other pure blood he is not killing them because he wants power or because it's fun

This is one probably the best post I've seen recently Juliet and I enjoyed reading it.

thank you Caela...

The Hunter's Association's current policy of inaction may be motivated by less than good morals........but they are limited in their options. Not all their members are at the level of Zero.

I agree that Zero is much stronger than a regular vampire hunter but how did they fought in the ancestor times if this is the case and also maintained their population for ten thousand years if they are far weaker than the purebloods...that brings me to another question...

The tolerance and indifference that the hunters display towards vampires originate from that power imbalance. The balance between vampires and hunters was destined to be unequal from the beginning....something that Kaname probably foresaw....and might be trying to fix right now.

When you are saying the beginning in which time do you refer? about the responsibilities that the council assigned to them? or the very beginning, the time of their creation, if its the second then still the question how they fought and managed to preserve their population after ten thousand years still exists...(even though I think an explanation is provided below).

(3) Shizuka was on the Hunter Association list for years and was only killed by Kaname, not a hunter.
(4) The Hunter Association did not protect Zero from the vampire Senate's punishment for "killing Shizuka."

I think Nina here covered you there quite good...

Yagari: “The senate plans to execute Zero! And the hunter society is just going to stand by and watch?!”
President of HA: “If Zero killed a PB there’s nothing we can do.”
Yagari: “That PB princess should have been put on our list long ago! Why does Zero have to die?”
President: “Yagari … what would happen if we condoned the killing of PBs? You know the vampire society would no longer be able to maintain law and order.” (chap.22)

So according to Yagari’s statement Shizuka wasn’t in the hunters list despite that it was known that she killed 2 hunters. I don’t remember if there is any statement that says otherwise.

Now … this is one of the problems which I suspect originates from the so called “sanctity of the PBs” >> the queen bee. In other words the PBs despite the atrocities that may have done were untouchable in the name of the maintenance of law and order in vampire society.

Even if the hunters wanted to be a larger force for peace in VK, ultimately, hunters are weaker than vampires.

Yes they are, but as Kaname had said in the past humans had a numerical advantage and they managed to win. Especially now, purebloods are sole predators, while hunters can attack in packs when facing a greater menace to protect themselves (with Zero's exception that apparently does not need the extra shield). And that also brings us to the point that Nina provided above;

The "Queen Bee" that was not established by the Kurans; as Kaname not only goes against it but also questions the perception as perception.

IMO it was "fake" and "made" exactly for that reason...to tie the hands of the ones that could actually bring down the purebloods that naturally remained the leaders.

So another necessity there for the "Queen Bee" to exist, the problem was that perhaps it was so convenient for all sides that in the passage of time, it rooted in the perceptions of both hunters and vampires, creating unexplained taboos that shielded the "wolf" instead of the lamps.

So I really do not know how the physical weakness can justify the hunters, because it seems that such perceptions as the above > leave the purebloods alone> are quite rooted in there and apparently nobody wants to mess with it, even if the conditions say so and that's an aspect that needs to change.

Of course power matters, and I also believe that the hunters could take use of some extra power in general, but again the hunters could act in teams such as in the past to deal with the purebloods.

But to be honest, I do not see this to be the main reason that now they do not react since I have not read even a line that shows their natural weakness; even so hiding weakness behind indifference is also another problem. And with the years I believe that it was also these kind of perceptions such as "Queen Bee" and the one sided interests of the council, which had great benefits in eliminating the hunters roles, that contributed actually in making the hunters to believe that there was no reason to use their powers for another reason, other than the level-e, since the society leaved in prosperity ( Asato's-great prosperity). So perhaps its "wake up" time...