Zero's hate

How do you feel about Zero's hate? Is he justified because he has childhood trauma?

I think that his hate is a sign of immaturity, in a sense he is not acting more different than Shizuka when she took revenge because of her lover's death. With one difference, Shizukas' hate was pointed to the particular familly not to all the vampire hunters. Now he has a very unstable personality, needing to kill at nights, to relax himself. I understand that he suffers and that he has childood trauma but his hate blinds him. At least towards Yuuki he have been different. His hate in overall is irrational, I do not think that any childhood trauma can justify an overall death wish...It's just too much and certainly he needs to see further than that.

Plus he forgives Ichiru who betrayed his whole familly and not Yuuki who has no choice over what she is...is that rational?

juliet wrote: Shizukas' hate was pointed to the particular familly not to all the vampire hunters.

That's a really good point, as much as I love Zero I have to agree that it is a little bit annoying and immature that he can't sort of be the same as Shizuka in a way for just hating the one who ruined his life, however you also have to think that he's thinking of others which is very selfless he clearly doesn't want people to go through the things he's been put through by a pure blood and so he wants to kill them all.

But his reaction to Yuki royally pisses me off xD I mean he loves her, you think he'd grow up a bit and realise that all purebloods and vampires in general aren't the same.

Trinity wrote:

juliet wrote: Shizukas' hate was pointed to the particular familly not to all the vampire hunters.

That's a really good point, as much as I love Zero I have to agree that it is a little bit annoying and immature that he can't sort of be the same as Shizuka in a way for just hating the one who ruined his life, however you also have to think that he's thinking of others which is very selfless he clearly doesn't want people to go through the things he's been put through by a pure blood and so he wants to kill them all.

But his reaction to Yuki royally pisses me off xD I mean he loves her, you think he'd grow up a bit and realise that all purebloods and vampires in general aren't the same.

Plus now that I see your avatar Trinity I think that this is the second time that Yuuki and Zero were depicted that way...he holding that stick ready to get that into her heart (classic way of exterminating vampires) so Hino portrays Zero's hate on Yuuki? M, that worries me a little bit...

well for me mostly hatred is for purebloods not all vampires, why because shizuka was a pureblood and he doesn't trust them plus no pureblood was good to him. but recently he seems calm about the killing, i think zero matrued ;)

PSDOL wrote:well for me mostly hatred is for purebloods not all vampires, why because shizuka was a pureblood and he doesn't trust them plus no pureblood was good to him. but recently he seems calm about the killing, i think zero matrued ;)

Yes he has, it was a big surprise to see Zero like than in chapter 60, he was like another person but we know that he hides his feelings of hate for the purebloods (he never said anything more to Sarah than "Stop...". I thought that we would get the bloody rose and shoot her on the spot). But is this pretense healthy to him or is he supressing his feelings too much in order to stand up to his job and he is going to burst out with the first chance he's got (I do not mean Yuuki here). He seems determinated to kill if they is a legal threat that justifies the act againts the other purebloods.
I think that in this arc we are going to see a different Zero than we have been used to...and he may suprise us even more. His hate will have a use (after all so strong emotions would be silly to go wasted for the script).
I certainly know someone who could use them or would not hesitate to ...so Zero's hate may have a reason in the script after all... :chuckle:

Personally I think Zero hatred is fairly logical and follows an interesting path. Zero starts out as a child as an idealist for peace between Vampires and humans. He is then faced with the dark reality when Shizuka kills his family. This turns him into a cynic about peace ever forming between the two species. I think its important to realize at that point in the manga he did not have the goal of killing all Vampires nor purebloods. Yes, he didn't like them at all but that at the time he was focused only on killing Shizuka for what she did.

His belief that all purebloods needed to die came about only after once again being drawn into another one of their battles of no choice of his own. He wanted only to make sure Yuuki was happy but instead he had his feelings used against him for the gain of another conniving pureblood. If anything the things he was taught about Vampires as a child are only more reinforced so far by what has happened to him at the hands of purebloods. It seems to me a fairly logical conclusion he has reached IMHO. Now we can say Yuuki hasn't been fairly kind to him but that of course was when she was human which he had reason to doubt, by her own words, that part of her was still in there.

Also Zero's "deathwish" mostly comes from his feelings of not wanting to become insane and end up killing or hurting someone. He more than anyone else in this manga worries about hurting others. It's interesting to see how events have changed Zero throughout. The person who at the start of the manga was shown showing sympathy to a Level E and not liking to kill now can not get by without killing Vampires at night. That's a startling change. Zero has been an extremely dynamic character while so far the others characters are pretty stagnant in comparison.

[quote="S_R"] The person who at the start of the manga was shown showing sympathy to a Level E and not liking to kill now can not get by without killing Vampires at night. That's a startling change. Zero has been an extremely dynamic character while so far the others characters are pretty stagnant in comparison.[/quote]

I really liked your post here, I had never realised that part about Zero but you are right. I remember him at the anime hesitating to shoot the level e vampire and actually Kaname monking him for that fact; at the party "Did you sympathize with him, Kirruy Zero?".....LOL, I have to say I sympathized Zero there, Kaname playing with Zero's sensitivites...even though he was stating a truth at that moment.
So yes you are definetele right, Zero had had a drastic develoment in the script but certainly not a positive one for him; he became what he hated, loosing his human side alltogether. But what really shooted his desire to kill in the first place? His perception that purebloods play games on other people's account...When he gave that cold view to Yuuki in chapter 60 that's what I though Zero should be thinking in that moment.

Being a vampire hunter we can say his hate for vampire is justified (hunters are genetically programmed to hate vampires). and at this we can add his past trauma, where his family were murdered by a pureblood vampire.

But in yuuki's case are differences:
1. he lived with her under the same roof for 4 years.
2. they ate at the same table for 4 years.
3. yuuki (human) watched over him when he was sick.
4. yuuki (human) gave him her blood to ease his pain, to delay his turning to level e
5. zero protected yuuki when she was in danger

Even if he knew yuuki, the kind person she is, thing what he discovered in these 4 years, it wasn't enough to not consider her an arogant pureblood what triffle with humans in their palms.
When zero made that statement, he put yuuki (the gentle person) at the same level with shizuka, a bad vampire who he never socialized before.

Apparenly he hate only bad vampires. but what are his criteria?
- shizuka was a bad vampire: he shot her;
- yuuki a kind vampire - he pointed his gun at her and treated to kill her. when she lost consciouness he help her. now in chapter 73 he offer her his blood(apparently she lose his sensen because of lack of blood). he flung her to a tree before that
- maria - he pointed his gun at her (in last ch) but he carried her bridal style afterwards

are many contradictions in zero behavior. apparently kaname isn't the only chara with contradictions, zero is in the same pot too

I don't really think he hates them as much as he says he does ( as maria pointed out in latest chapters)
- in the first arc, he surely did. But remember he was still turning in to one/ had just into one himself, i think that is just not the time to think about it wether vampires are really this bad or not (ofcourse this doesn't make it right, he's rude behaviour was really stupid sometimes)
- his hate in the first arc comes from two things you must remember: Shizuka's attack obviously (wich made him hate purebloods more than others: this is really stupid though) + he's a vampire hunter: his whole life he had never really met anyone who didn't say that all vampires are bad/ it's no crime to kill a vampire etc. (even back then, he had other opinions, wich is really kindhearted, i must say, until the level E attacked..)
- end of the first arc: he says he hates yuuki but he kisses her? I mean, that was just rude to say, but the hate thing was only half-hearted even back then, after such shocking happenings
-second arc: two developments
1. he doesn't hate all of them, though he says he does (maybe it is only from my pov but whatever, it seems to be like this to me)
2. the bad ones, he does kill them easier (this really makes me kinda sad :S)
--------> so one good and one bad evolution?
anyways i agree that his I don't hate them/Ihate them all/ I hate some of them but won't tell anyone-behaviour is very interesting
I hope he does improve a bit more now ( for example, admitting he doesn't hate them all would be good) because right now, his behaviour makes the story going slower)

Zero never said he hated Yuuki. the only person he actually said he hated was Shizuka.

Maria did say he doesn't hate all vampires. nuff said. we've seen it, he was fine with aidou, cooked him dinner, but he's freely rude and hostile especially if they are rude or agressive vampires or if he thinks they need to be put in their place and also duty related stuff.

aya-chan wrote:
Apparenly he hate only bad vampires. but what are his criteria?
- shizuka was a bad vampire: he shot her;

Rido killed his brother and started all the games in the first place, kaname turned Yuuki back into a vampire. purebloods do play and use other, that what they do, its a fact, whether its for a game or a deeper purpose and Yuuki became one of their kind. Sara's also deliberately provocative. Toma attacks without reason. "Ouri" used and killed a hunter to kill himself. Kaname's going around killing his own kind. On the surface of it, Yuuki is definitely the exception.

And Zero has always distinguished that Yuuki isn't the same as the others, he knew she wasn't to blame and he also said to Kaito that she was different. His gut reaction was pissy, but given a bit more time, he cooled down. Under normal circumstances, Zero can be tolerant, but he's never nice.

I find that its difficult to see Zero doesn't hate Yuki when his actions show otherwise, if actions speak louder than words then his actions and his words are vague sometimes, unless he says something, which he hardly did until now.

for example, when Maria asked him if he felt betrayed by Yuki, he said that he never did. But who could tell that was the case since before that he was just generally cold towards her, (although indirectly caring, but who would say that he cares at that moment?)
Zero's actions , if not his words, often lie about how he really thinks about something, for example, in this chapter he roughly handled yuki, coerced her to drink his blood, his actions and words say this but his intentions to help her were obvious.
so how would one interpret him if his actions/words are quite vague from the truth?

as for Zero hating vampires, I think his gun pointing to vampires helps in the interpretation. i don't think it is necessary like what he did to Maria, so I tend to think its a device that can be used to emphasize zero's character as tsundere .

Zero never said he hated Yuuki. the only person he actually said he hated was Shizuka.

And Zero has always distinguished that Yuuki isn't the same as the others, he knew she wasn't to blame and he also said to Kaito that she was different. His gut reaction was pissy, but given a bit more time, he cooled down. Under normal circumstances, Zero can be tolerant, but he's never nice.

I think he said that he wants to kill all purebloods,so he met two purebloods (Rido, Shizuka), now wants to kill them all, it is like saying " I met two Greek people (I take my nationality so nobody is offended here, it's an example), I want to kill them all. So it's a racism (if we can use the term in a broader sense) kind of problem...it's not that simple to overcome such a presdisposition. In that race now (or how it should be called, anyway you get my meaning), Yuuki is included thus Yuuki feels the rejection that its pointed towards her through Zero's generalized version. It does not take much to say that since Zero feels like killing all purebloods, he must be feeling the same about Yuuki.

But as Solace previously said Zero keeps locked his feelings. What I see is not that he has overcome that hate (I am not referring to Yuuki here) but that has settled it under a pretense; that he needs a legal excuse. Now to act under a legal excuse does not betray hate, since under a legal excuse it becomes a job, a duty, a responsibility. So that does not say much about the way Zero now feels about it/neither it shows that he has cooled down. In order to believe that he has overcome his hate, we need to hear him in action.

As for how much Zero differetiates Yuuki from other purebloods, the fact that he is not considering capable of doing any harm, should be seen in relation to conditions, because she is still young, new, naive and almost a vamp pureblood baby. But that does not mean that she is not a pureblood that could fit under the "kill all" category in Zero's mind if Yuuki steps at deeper grounds and become more of a pureblood. What I see is that Yuuki is changing, she is shifting from her more human side to her more vampire side as we've seen example seeing Yori as her lunch. So I believe that this point is not stable; is not that Zero will accept Yuuki unconditionally.

juliet wrote:

Zero never said he hated Yuuki. the only person he actually said he hated was Shizuka.

And Zero has always distinguished that Yuuki isn't the same as the others, he knew she wasn't to blame and he also said to Kaito that she was different. His gut reaction was pissy, but given a bit more time, he cooled down. Under normal circumstances, Zero can be tolerant, but he's never nice.

I think he said that he wants to kill all purebloods,so he met two purebloods (Rido, Shizuka), now wants to kill them all, it is like saying " I met two Greek people (I take my nationality so nobody is offended here, it's an example), I want to kill them all. So it's a racism (if we can use the term in a broader sense) kind of problem...it's not that simple to overcome such a presdisposition. In that race now (or how it should be called, anyway you get my meaning), Yuuki is included thus Yuuki feels the rejection that its pointed towards her through Zero's generalized version. It does not take much to say that since Zero feels like killing all purebloods, he must be feeling the same about Yuuki.

But as Solace previously said Zero keeps locked his feelings. What I see is not that he has overcome that hate (I am not referring to Yuuki here) but that has settled it under a pretense; that he needs a legal excuse. Now to act under a legal excuse does not betray hate, since under a legal excuse it becomes a job, a duty, a responsibility. So that does not say much about the way Zero now feels about it/neither it shows that he has cooled down. In order to believe that he has overcome his hate, we need to hear him in action.

As for how much Zero differetiates Yuuki from other purebloods, the fact that he is not considering capable of doing any harm, should be seen in relation to conditions, because she is still young, new, naive and almost a vamp pureblood baby. But that does not mean that she is not a pureblood that could fit under the "kill all" category in Zero's mind if Yuuki steps at deeper grounds and become more of a pureblood. What I see is that Yuuki is changing, she is shifting from her more human side to her more vampire side as we've seen example seeing Yori as her lunch. So I believe that this point is not stable; is not that Zero will accept Yuuki unconditionally.

i agree. i think the reason why zero "cooled down" is because of the events that happened and he has no reason to act crazy...not yet. He has regained back a part of his humanity when he went to ichiru's grave, after that he doesnt show as much needless hostility towards vampires so we can say his lust for killing was tapered down a notch.
However just recently Zero shot a vampire without holding him for questioning in chapter72, I don't think he's calmed down there. it seemed like the idea of helping yuki was pushing him to his limits or driving him to the edge, so what gives that idea?
-his love for yuki
-his hate for vampires and she is one
-his pride
-something he won't admit- that he's helping her even when he knows she loves someone else and that wounds him?
-all?

so i think he doesn't hate her as a person, but he hates her as a vampire.
the issue with yuki betraying zero was over when he said he never felt betrayed.so his hostility towards her stems from something else and like juliet said i think its the generalization all vampires are bad and his pride

i find this contradicting too since if he thinks all vampires are bad, then why is he being docile towards aido, yuki.? i think he hates their nature because of his instinct as hunter but he also cant help but help them

juliet wrote:
I think he said that he wants to kill all purebloods,so he met two purebloods (Rido, Shizuka), now wants to kill them all, it is like saying " I met two Greek people (I take my nationality so nobody is offended here, it's an example), I want to kill them all. So it's a racism
...
It does not take much to say that since Zero feels like killing all purebloods, he must be feeling the same about Yuuki.

Not 2, 3 purebloods who interfered in the lives of those he loved most and screwed him over (his pov). I'm looking at WHY he would want to do that. I don't care if its racism or anything like that or trying to say Zero was right. I was saying that Zero has never actually *stated* he *hates* Yuuki, he never said those things because he *hated on her*. Whether or not Yuuki understands that herself is a different matter.

Don't deliberately misunderstand Zero, other characters obviously understand him like Maria and recognise the truth, because she's smart enough to know that Zero doesn't hate all vampires.

Zero wanted to kill all purebloods because he was angry about what they do. In the context of vampires, he's a vampire hunter who kills vampires as duty, vampire hunters are brought up to not trust vampires, to them, its like trusting a great white shark (Zero isn't alone in his attitude). Then he went totally extreme and decided that the best way to stop pureblood games was by killing them and himself. "ending it all". Zero was ruled by irrational thought.

What I see is not that he has overcome that hate (I am not referring to Yuuki here) but that has settled it under a pretense; that he needs a legal excuse. Now to act under a legal excuse does not betray hate, since under a legal excuse it becomes a job, a duty, a responsibility. So that does not say much about the way Zero now feels about it/neither it shows that he has cooled down. In order to believe that he has overcome his hate, we need to hear him in action.

You cannot say he hates vampires *now* based on his decisions made in grief and his irrationality. He no longer thinks he has to kill them all. He acting with reason now, he holds himself in check, he does his duty, sure he relishes it, but we also know thats driven by his vampiric hunger to kill.

And yes, it is a change in his level of hostility to go from irrationally wanting to kill them all because he felt like it, to needing the legal right to do it. It means he no longer desires to pre-emptively kill them just because they exist. Zero priority isn't killing now, its the desire to keep vampires in check, but he doesn't like having to wait until they hurt someone.

Don't mistake his inability to trust them and his hostile front to vampires as pure hate either. He obviously doesn't hate Maria. He doesn't hate Aidou. He has no problems with being rude and hostile to anyone. He WANTS them to think he's dangerous and not to be toyed with. He wants people to think he's not going to be soft on any vampire. and he includes Yuuki in that, because she's on the other side. But some people like Maria, can see through that. I know you may not see that as Zero's deliberate facade, but I'm 100% certain of this. (not that I think he's complete goo underneath, but I do see him as putting up a harder front than he actually is).

As for how much Zero differetiates Yuuki from other purebloods, the fact that he is not considering capable of doing any harm, should be seen in relation to conditions, because she is still young, new, naive and almost a vamp pureblood baby.

As I said above, Zero was brought up not to trust vampires, they can seem docile one minute and dangerous the next. While that would never happen to Yuuki, it's an indication from Zero's pov of that fact that vampires cannot be trusted to stay the same. Zero cannot guarantee to Kaito, that given enough time, that Yuuki too wouldn't change, its enough that Zero knows, within his brief meeting, that Yuuki hasn't changed.

i find this contradicting too since if he thinks all vampires are bad, then why is he being docile towards aido, yuki.? i think he hates their nature because of his instinct as hunter but he also cant help but help them

He didn't say all vampires are bad. He said to Yori that not all vampires are good. That's an acknowledgement that some are good.

Knightmare wrote:
Not 2, 3 purebloods who interfered in the lives of those he loved most and screwed him over (his pov). I'm looking at WHY he would want to do that. I don't care if its racism or anything like that or trying to say Zero was right. I was saying that Zero has never actually *stated* he *hates* Yuuki, he never said those things because he *hated on her*. Whether or not Yuuki understands that herself is a different matter.

Yes I agree that he never hated her, I understand your point that he never dircetly said that he hated Yuuki, but when he openly states infront of her that he wants to kill all purebloods the message that he hates all purebloods, Yuuki was a pureblood and he completely changed his attitude towards her, after he found it out, sends the message across (to Yuuki at least). If I am reffering to racims is because this kind of perceptions (specially when based on trauma) are serious, deep routed and need time to be overcomed.

Don't deliberately misunderstand Zero, other characters obviously understand him like Maria and recognise the truth, because she's smart enough to know that Zero doesn't hate all vampires.

I was not reffering to all vampires, I was reffering to only purebloods, that's why I started my pervious post with the reference "wanted to kill all purebloods", Zero never said "vampires", he said "purebloods" and there I limit it also even though I do not know if this is obvious in my post.

Then he went totally extreme and decided that the best way to stop pureblood games was by killing them and himself. "ending it all". Zero was ruled by irrational thought.

And yes, it is a change in his level of hostility to go from irrationally wanting to kill them all because he felt like it, to needing the legal right to do it. It means he no longer desires to pre-emptively kill them just because they exist. Zero priority isn't killing now, its the desire to keep vampires in check, but he doesn't like having to wait until they hurt someone.

Let me mention once more that my post was refering to purebloods and not vampires, so that we have a clear picture of what I am saying.

so there are two options here;
1. He has surpassed his hate/traumas considering purebloods and his job is his main focus.
2. He is masking his desire to kill purebloods under the legal excuse that his job is giving him.

The fact that he does not wish the kill them at once (purebloods), according to my POV does not cancel his perceptions or predisposition; he can still hate purebloods to his guts, but thinking rationally, he is not falling into the trap of acting at the heat of the moment (that moment has passed).

But has the script still conveyed Zero's issues with purebloods? Has Hino offered a real resolution to all the scenes with angts that Zero passed at the past? No. That's why I am saying that his statement to Maria for me does not convey the pureblood matter neither his stance (being a vampire hunter who acts reasonable) just erases his hate. Let me state it in a better way; Zero as Zero as a personality has shown developpment moving from acting like a furious adolescent (want to kill pureblood scene) to a a cool vampire hunter.

That's a personal development that shows a tamed instict, that of the hunters. But speaking about feelings/about presdisposition he may be acting also so cleverly that he waits for the moment to come and legaly justify him. In this case hate would remain hate but the expression of that hate would have been even more sophisticated. So we need a bit more concrete proofs before we say "he has gotten over it".

Zero is complicated, especially with his feelings regarding vampires. When he was young he sympathized with them. It was only after Shizuka murdered his family did he see that some were dangerous and evil. He initially attacked Kaname, thinking that since he is the same as Shizuka, he must be evil too. It took some time but he eventually saw that Kaname wasn't bad. Since then he only reacted violently to vampires who posed a threat to him or anyone else. Shizuka and Rido were obvious cases. Kaname always took action on the sly but recently has begun to openly kill. Zero already has more than enough reason to go after him but he still doesn't. Personally I don't know why he isn't hunting him especially if he hates him so much. Probably because he has a duty to stay at the academy to help keep things in order. It seems like neither hate nor legality are affecting his decisions now.

Snow wrote:It was only after Shizuka murdered his family did he see that some were dangerous and evil.

He did not only see SOME of them as dangerous, but ALL of them. He even generalized it to Kaname, hence attacking him. He had generalized it to the point of hurting Yuki and Kaien for their beliefs of coexistence with the creatures he's the only one hating.

He initially attacked Kaname, thinking that since he is the same as Shizuka, he must be evil too.

He wounded Kaname just because he "smelled the same way as that woman". He couldn't have known that he was good or bad like her. He just assumed. And what a rude assumption.

It took some time but he eventually saw that Kaname wasn't bad. Since then he only reacted violently to vampires who posed a threat to him or anyone else.

not true. His anger dropped down a notch after Kaname offered him blood to stabilize him in that he doesn't show needless hostility towards vampie anymore, but his violence /agression towards Kaname and vampires in general came back when Yuki left him for Kaname. Chapter 50-58 he appears like he joined the hunters to get a "legal excuse" to hunt down vampires, because of his anger. It was only in chapter 59 after visiting Ichiru that he gained his senses and became more "humane" again, consequently stopped the needless hostility and became more sober.

Kaname always took action on the sly but recently has begun to openly kill.

Kaname's motives are unknown, hence his actions are seen in a bad light. The hunters are only doing their job. Even Zero said so.

Zero already has more than enough reason to go after him but he still doesn't.

that's because ever since chapter 58 he even claimed he was only waiting for a "legal excuse" to kill vampires. Chapter 72 shows how he murdered the target vampire in cold blood without even questioning him. Kaname was only tagged as temporarily dangerous, I don't think he'd move without any orders and that's probably the only reason why he's still acting logical. And I don't think he has reason to hate Kaname after his hate spree ended, Yuki's there to occupy his lust.

Personally I don't know why he isn't hunting him especially if he hates him so much.

Personally I think Zero is blaming the wrong person, Kaname has nothing to do with the tragedy happening in his life so I think he just displaced his anger to him.

Probably because he has a duty to stay at the academy to help keep things in order. It seems like neither hate nor legality are affecting his decisions now.

Zero follows orders, but beyond that I think he wouldn't waver killing a vampire. His lust IS affecting his decisions, as seen in the chapter where he shot the vampire without questioning. He is more rough in his actions now with his lust overpowering his mind and logic, I hope this will not lead to something drastic

Lol sweet I agree

Snow wrote: When he was young he sympathized with them. It was only after Shizuka murdered his family did he see that some were dangerous and evil. He initially attacked Kaname, thinking that since he is the same as Shizuka, he must be evil too.

I think Zero’s “hate” for the PBs has to be divided in periods …
> Before his parents’ murder … he was still too “pure” and soft back then.
> After the murder of his parents and his turn into a vampire by a PB. This incident changed him.
> After the extermination of Shizuka, Rido and the revelation that Yuuki was a PB after all. I think his hate, mixed with his pain for the losses in his life, blinded him and his hate was bigger that his love for Yuuki. But also he has generalized his hate.
> After a year had passed.
> After his visit at the graveyard.

I think more or less these are the “stations” of Zero’s hate and maybe development.

Zero’s “hate” after a year:

1. “Why can’t I just kill them as I please? There’s not enough to satisfy me this way.”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2178-17/vampire-knight/chapter-50.html

2. “All this time I’ve been wanting to kill with my own hands, the worst of all vampires, the one who caused all the mess”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2178-22/vampire-knight/chapter-50.html

… the worst? Even from Shizuka and Rido who were the culprits for his tragedy????

3. “And just like that you expect me to believe him? How can the hunters know he’s not actually preparing himself to make a declaration of war, against us?
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2178-24/vampire-knight/chapter-50.html

Snow wrote: It took some time but he eventually saw that Kaname wasn't bad.

Did he? I think from the above Zero’s lines it shows that he can’t distinguish Kaname from Shizuka, Rido and probably from Sara too. In other words more or less all the PBs are on the same category for him. Probably except Yuuki but only for personal reasons.

4. Yori: “Yuuki … you won’t hunt her, will you? She hasn’t done anything wrong”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2179-9/vampire-knight/chapter-51.html

… no answer … he still after a year can’t bring himself to admit that he won’t hunt her down.

5. Kaito: “Hey I can feel your thirst for killing practically oozing out of your pores.”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-29253-6/vampire-knight/chapter-53.html

6. Cross: ”Yuuki will be attending the party. One year ago you claimed you would kill her. But I believe you wouldn’t without any reason”
Zero: “Yeah you’re right … All I’m waiting for is just an excuse that will allow me to jump in and do the killing according to rules”
Cross: “If that’s how it is. Then when that time comes I will firmly stand my ground between you and Yuuki … cuz both are very dear to me.”

http://www.mangareader.net/104-29253-10/vampire-knight/chapter-53.html
http://www.mangareader.net/104-29253-11/vampire-knight/chapter-53.html

So after a year, after he calmed down and supposedly had cleared his head, he still claims that he wants to kill her; not only Kaname the “worst”, but also Yuuki, his love?!

7. After the meeting that hunters had with Kaname.
Kaito: “Zero from the way you were looking at that PB it was obvious that in your glare that you just wanted to kill him right on the spot.”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-29253-31/vampire-knight/chapter-53.html

8. At the ball … “Don’t touch me!”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-33723-21/vampire-knight/chapter-54.html

He treats to the girl he loves as she is something sickly.


9. Kaito: “Sure there is no doubt that you seem to be the ideal future president, you don’t let anything slip … but under the surface you’re emotionally terribly unstable.”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-43743-23/vampire-knight/chapter-57.html

10.Kaito: “Vampires you want to kill huh? Does that include the PB (Yuuki) from the ball?
Zero: PBs are wretched creatures from which only tragedy is born … this is the only truth that will never change.”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-43743-25/vampire-knight/chapter-57.html

So no straight answer again. But either way he sees her as a wretched creature <<< and according to his belief, this “truth” will never change!

knightmare wrote: It means he no longer desires to pre-emptively kill them just because they exist. Zero priority isn't killing now, its the desire to keep vampires in check, but he doesn't like having to wait until they hurt someone.

How? His wording that, all that he waits for, is an excuse it proves that he only desires to kill … he just waits for the right opportunity. Is he using his position as a hunter to satisfy his “hate”?

knightmare wrote: And Zero has always distinguished that Yuuki isn't the same as the others, he knew she wasn't to blame and he also said to Kaito that she was different. His gut reaction was pissy, but given a bit more time, he cooled down. Under normal circumstances, Zero can be tolerant, but he's never nice.

Zero’s words that Yuuki isn’t dangerous isn’t such a shocking change isn’t it? Here Kaito who had no prior connection with her and says exactly what Zero said about her …
Kaito: “I got the feeling she’s a good girl … nothing but a lion cub for now.”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-37352-8/vampire-knight/chapter-55.html

So he stated the obvious … and I agree with juliet's post.

juliet wrote: As for how much Zero differetiates Yuuki from other purebloods, the fact that he is not considering capable of doing any harm, should be seen in relation to conditions, because she is still young, new, naive and almost a vamp pureblood baby. But that does not mean that she is not a pureblood that could fit under the "kill all" category in Zero's mind if Yuuki steps at deeper grounds and become more of a pureblood. What I see is that Yuuki is changing, she is shifting from her more human side to her more vampire side as we've seen example seeing Yori as her lunch. So I believe that this point is not stable; is not that Zero will accept Yuuki unconditionally.

Zero after the visit at the graveyard:

I think Ichirou’s words had an impact on him … at least that’s my feeling. Especially the talk about humanity …
http://www.mangareader.net/104-49597-16/vampire-knight/chapter-59.html

My impression is that this talk helped Zero to “accept” his current state … that he is a vampire and maybe through that, to see, that, as not all the humans are good and pure, neither all the vampires are evil. But still I don’t know if his belief about the PBs has changed.

11. When the wounded Yuuki almost bit him … he said that she barely escaped death …
http://www.mangareader.net/104-51058-26/vampire-knight/chapter-60.html

Well his tone is totally different from when he pointed the gun towards her and he obviously wouldn’t bring himself to realize his threat, but still he re-confirms the enemies-status.

From that point and onwards, mostly kept his silence about his views …
http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/71/31

… but synchronously was giving to Yuuki the cold shoulder…

> “That was my prey” …
http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/70/8

> “You are still the same, bearing those naive thoughts about vampires …”
http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/72/9

> “If you’re unhappy about the way I treat vampires … are you still wearing that bracelet?” …
http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/72/10

> But on the same time is obvious that he cares for her safety and goes to Hanabusa to ask him indirectly to watch over her.
http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/70/19

A significant factor which I think has a certain influence on Zero’s current more "cool" behaviour is the purpose of the NC and what its represent/serve, not only for Yuuki but for the hunters as well.
Zero was present at the meeting between Cross and the congressman, Yori’s father, not coincidently IMO. So the smooth running of the NC is important for the hunters since they are jeopardizing a lot by allowing the re-opening >>>

http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/71/2
http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/71/3

>>> which I think is one of the reasons of why Zero ends up to offer his blood to Yuuki in order to stabilize her. His “coercion” hides anxiety of what will happen if Yuuki fails in her role, especially now that Sara is a breath away…

So … bottom line is that Zero has made a few steps from his irrational behaviour when he pointed twice his gun towards Yuuki, till now. But that is also logical. He doesn’t hate Yuuki as he didn’t hate her as a person, back then. But I’m not sure if he still doesn’t hate her nature.
Neither I think that it was so shocking his wording to Maria … I mean as a big WOW he changed! It would be stupid if he believed that Yuuki betrayed him cuz she turned to be a PB <<< cuz there was laid Maria’s word for betrayal … that Yuuki betrayed him cuz after all was a PB and not a human. But Yuuki didn’t know her true nature, so how she could ever betray him over this?
I don’t believe that he could ever bring himself to kill her, no. But also that doesn’t mean that he has risen above his belief that he waits an excuse to kill PBs or that they are wretched creatures. Yuuki’s words that their views never met might be still true.
But I want to believe that one day sooner or later he’ll reach the point to believe in co-existence. Maybe Cross’s “transformation” is foreshadowing for Zero’s development over this matter and as the future president of the HA.

Thanks the for replies. I didn't think I would get them so fast. I don't know how to use the quote thing so I'm going to answer both of you normally.

To sweetsolace:
Right after his family's murder, he did wound Kaname on the grounds that he is a pureblood like Shizuka. It's true he did assume Kaname would also be a dangerous vampire but seeing as he was only 13 when it happened, he was obviously traumatized so can you blame him for acting out irrationally? He did reject Yuuki and Kaien ideals but they never blamed him for it because they knew what he went through so has every right to hate vampires.
The only reason Kaname gave him his blood was so that he would be stable enough to kill Rido. I agree with that, his hate increased after Kaname and Yuuki left the Academy but that was after he found out how he was used by Kaname as a tool for his plans. Kaien knows about Zero's hate and urge to kill Kaname but again doesn't blame him because of what happened.
Waiting for a legal excuse to kill vampires still goes under the category of only killing vampires who pose a threat to humans. So far he has only killed the vampires on the hunter lists so there is a consensus among the hunters that those vampires should be eliminated. Personally I think only Level E vampires should be killed but if that is how the hunters want to go about it, far be it for me to judge them.
Kaname's motives are unknown at the moment but he is still committing murders. When I said that Zero has enough reason to go after him wasn't because of his hate for Kaname but because of his recent crimes. Kaname probably does have a reason for his actions, but he is still doing wrong so he must be stopped. Not killed, just stopped.
Zero does have a lust for killing vampires but is still going by the rules so his “hate” isn't driving his actions. Even Yuuki knew about that vampire guy auctioning off humans, so he might have been on the lists. I don't know that for sure, it's just a guess.

To nina:
The wording in my last post was really affecting the meaning of my sentences so please let me clarify.

When I wrote that “eventually he saw that Kaname wasn't bad,” I meant that he realized that Kaname wasn't a pureblood like Shizuka, one who would kill out of revenge.

Upon first hearing of Zero's declarations after the time skip, I did think he was letting his “hate” for Kaname and all of the purebloods he's encountered take over him. But despite what he said he doesn't wrongly persecute vampires, only the ones who are outright committing crimes. I'm judging Zero solely on his actions here. All of the examples you've put are good for showing that Zero wants to kill vampires but says he won't because he is waiting for the excuse. Now he has that with Kaname. Zero can easily go after him, using the “excuse” that Kaname is killing vampires but it could actually be a pretense for his “hate.” He could do that and no one would judge him but he is still chose to stay behind at the Academy to watch over things there. If Zero can be that rational especially with the vampire that he hates the most then I don't see Yuuki in danger at all from his urges to kill. This is the reason why I think that Zero's hate isn't the deciding factor for his actions.

sweetsolace wrote:Zero follows orders, but beyond that I think he wouldn't waver killing a vampire. His lust IS affecting his decisions, as seen in the chapter where he shot the vampire without questioning. He is more rough in his actions now with his lust overpowering his mind and logic, I hope this will not lead to something drastic

I don't see the connection between his lust and killing the vampire. I must have missed the pages where his bloodlust was out of control and he just had to kill that vampire to control himself instead of bringing it in for questioning.

He's rough because he sees everything in black and white. It's a coping mechanism for him right now. He's gone from 'Must kill all purebloods' to being able to admit there are good vampires and bad vampires. His job as a hunter is to take out those on the hunters list. This one was likely on the list.

Pretty much what I think is going on in the hunter world right now with the NC and Yuuki is similar to how things are set up in the NC. Yuuki is trying to run interference between the vampires and Zero. Their goals are the same--wanting to protect and maintain peace. Zero even said to Kaien in chapter 50 that he'd placed aside his plans because he knows he needed the Kurans to help keep peace. Peace is more important to Zero than his personal revenge.

They have never seen eye to eye though. This isn't anything new. Their stances are pretty much the same from the first half of the series, yet they were able to work together as a team just fine because of their relationship. It's their relationship that's changed and this is on a much bigger playing field with much bigger players. They are literally just playing 'prefects' on a much larger scale.

Anyway, this is supposed to be about Zero's supposed 'hate' and his sudden announcement about never feeling betrayed by Yuuki. I do agree with pretty much everything Nina has said above. EXCEPT #8. Yuuki should know better after 5 years of knowing Zero to NEVER TOUCH HIS WRIST. This was nothing new. Pay attention to their body language and interaction in the first arc. Almost every time she grabbed his hand wrist or arm he said "Don't touch me". Also, pay attention to what she would grab instead of it...his sleeve. Likely because it wasn't skin to skin contact he was okay with her dragging him around by his clothes. Who knows if there is something remotely significant about this. It's just something to note. It was always the wrist...

Anyway. I agree with everything that Nina said (and she did a wonderful job backing up her words) but there are a few additional things that lead me to believe this situation is a little more complicated emotionally particularly because of the events that happened between them leading up to her transformation and during.

1. Harming Zero- I don't see her doing this to anyone else during this time. Maybe it's just because he was the closest one to her and easiest to get at. We all recall the scene where she tackled him to the ground and strangled him. But there was a very odd and out of place scene prior to this that is rarely mentioned.

http://www.mangareader.net/104-2157-16/vampire-knight/chapter-31.html

http://www.mangareader.net/104-2157-17/vampire-knight/chapter-31.html

Why this strange urge to harm Zero inparticular during this time where the spell was breaking within her?

Chapter 34 has the scene with Yuuki strangling him. Two things were shown there. YMMV depending on interpretation but what I got out of it.

1. Zero had literally placed his life in Yuuki's hands. Not in a good way.

2. Yuuki needed Zero as much as he needed her. Again. Not in a good way.

Notice how this ends. Panic and Denial. Yuuki realizes how messed up Zero is because of what she's done and Zero straight out DENIES Yuuki's confession of her guilt. Yuuki freaks when Zero mentions Kaname because she had just told Zero she needed him and that in her mind was a huge betrayal to Kaname add on this selfishness she believes of herself for shoving Zero into this corner where he's living literally FOR her and not for himself like she intended. I'd freak out too and shove him out with a fake smile and laugh. Because the natural NEXT reaction to all that happened right then is something that's come up before. "What does Zero mean to me?"

Our dear Yuuki was mentally not able to think about this because she was going a little crazy during it...then everything went downhill and just moments later she was a pureblood vampire again. That whole scene had a purpose though. It impacted what each of them chose as their path. Especially Yuuki. She felt she just made things worse for him instead of helping him. She started by pushing him away and...what would have happened next we never got to see.

http://www.mangareader.net/104-2162-2/vampire-knight/chapter-36.html

http://www.mangareader.net/104-2162-3/vampire-knight/chapter-36.html

The question is how genuine is that hatred though? The pages above show that immediately after she was woken, Kaname posed the question to Zero. Which side? In his room he struggled. In his cell he struggled. There's an old saying "To love others, you have to love yourself." Zero has a massive case of self-hate as we all know. His purpose in life has never been a healthy one since the day Shizuka killed his family. 1st he was only living to get revenge on Shizuka. 2nd he was only living for Yuuki's sake.

From 35-46 he struggled with what his choice would be. Vampire or Hunter. Finally he accepted the fact of what HE was. http://www.mangareader.net/104-2172-23/vampire-knight/chapter-46.html and was willing to give up everything for her sake. http://www.mangareader.net/104-2172-25/vampire-knight/chapter-46.html

A Zero still willing to give up everything for Yuuki's sake, something she felt was destructive to him. Yuuki understood PART of what he was asking her because she did turn around and provide him a reason to live. She was a little slow on the rest of it though.

As Kaname said...he had to choose. Saying he wasn't needed automatically closed his first choice. He sees things in black and white and needed a reason to live. I think the hate was a necessity for him at first until shades of gray started leaking into his world after his talk with Ichiru.

why is everyone trying to justify Zero's behaviors?? lets just face it he's doing something wrong sometimes and he's going to get judged for it

just saying

Snow wrote:
To sweetsolace:
Right after his family's murder, he did wound Kaname on the grounds that he is a pureblood like Shizuka. It's true he did assume Kaname would also be a dangerous vampire but seeing as he was only 13 when it happened, he was obviously traumatized so can you blame him for acting out irrationally?

being traumatize is not reason for him to act so childish. Stabbing Kaname when he first met him just because he smelled the same is quite rude, regardless what he'd been through, Yuki was telling him Kaname is different but that didn't really kept him from lashing out at a Guest, in a house he's staying as a Guest/adopted. I'm not condoning this behavior as right, i just find it irrational

He did reject Yuuki and Kaien ideals but they never blamed him for it because they knew what he went through so has every right to hate vampires.

that doesn't take away the fact he was lashing out without knowing his place in the household as an Adopted. See there, it's Yuki and Kaien who are trying to understand him, for four years, trying to deal with his ways, his words, while he carried on his hatred spree.
I'm not saying Zero doesn't have the right to hate vampires but as you said he is mature enough to know he should project his hatred accordingly, it seems to me he's just blindly emanating it around him which is not right since Kaien took him in when he's practically orphaned, Yuki cared for him like a mother and that's how he treats them.

I agree with that, his hate increased after Kaname and Yuuki left the Academy but that was after he found out how he was used by Kaname as a tool for his plans.

no, he found out he was being "used" by Kaname long before he gave him blood. Zero said nothing, he was not mad or crazy about the idea and looked like he went along with it, he realizes he also wants to protect Yuki so his wants coincide with Kaname "using" him. So technically his hatred towards Kaname has no basis except that he also assumed and generalized that Kaname is the "root of all the bad vampires and he must be exterminated" (as said by Nina, check the links) I assume he was bitter about Yuki leaving him and Yuki being turned into a pureblood so now he's alone with no more blood to drink.

Waiting for a legal excuse to kill vampires still goes under the category of only killing vampires who pose a threat to humans.

no..it doesn't. Having a legal excuse to kill means if a vampire violated any small amount of law that already puts them on the execution list without any fair trial or questioning. "Vampires who pose a threat to humans", like Sara, is not even a legal excuse to be killed because of what she reasoned out. the fact she's alive now is proof

So far he has only killed the vampires on the hunter lists so there is a consensus among the hunters that those vampires should be eliminated.

so Zero also said the same thing. which is exactly why its called a Legal Excuse to kill.

Kaname's motives are unknown at the moment but he is still committing murders.

which is why I said his actions are seen in a negative light especially by some fans. If you don't know why he's doing the murders then you just assume he's a bad person for doing them.

When I said that Zero has enough reason to go after him wasn't because of his hate for Kaname but because of his recent crimes.

Zero is holding back because there's no order to go after Kaname, I don't know why he hesitated either probably because he was slowly getting over his anger displacement. Kaname's "recent crimes" involve eliminating the council which he duly discussed with Yagari and Kaien, the heads of the hunter association, before leaving, and whatever discussed there means the outcome of their decision what to do with his "recent crimes". and there's no decision. the hunters themselves are not doing much with regards to taking an action against kaname's crimes so doesnt give zero the authority to go after him

Kaname probably does have a reason for his actions, but he is still doing wrong so he must be stopped. Not killed, just stopped.

you don't know what his actions will achieve, perhaps it will be for the good of all, if he stops now nothing will change either

Zero does have a lust for killing vampires but is still going by the rules so his “hate” isn't driving his actions.

but his perception that he's being a hunter to get a legal excuse to kill is still driven by hate. its like being a bouncer because you're a sadist and want to express your nature legally and in sociably acceptable terms

sari15 wrote:

sweetsolace wrote:Zero follows orders, but beyond that I think he wouldn't waver killing a vampire. His lust IS affecting his decisions, as seen in the chapter where he shot the vampire without questioning. He is more rough in his actions now with his lust overpowering his mind and logic, I hope this will not lead to something drastic

I don't see the connection between his lust and killing the vampire. I must have missed the pages where his bloodlust was out of control and he just had to kill that vampire to control himself instead of bringing it in for questioning.

Zero killed the vampire without questioning, as Yuki had noted, simply because Yuki was there and it was peaking his bloodlust so he just had to pull the trigger. It's no rockit project that Zero wants Yuki's blood and he's holding back all this time, now Yuki's there and he probably also has a legal excuse to look cool in front of yuki and grab her attention by saving her and getting himself another legal excuse to kill. Ok jokes aside lol, Zero did tell her after she reminded him of his kill, that if she "had a problem with his way of handling the situation she should use the bracelet". That means killing the vampire without questioning was his way of dealing with the situation, the vampire may or may not have been on the list. I think Yuki's presence had a lot to do with Zero killing the vampire that's why I said lust

He's rough because he sees everything in black and white. It's a coping mechanism for him right now. He's gone from 'Must kill all purebloods' to being able to admit there are good vampires and bad vampires.

he's rough because its his personality (the popular notion now is that his chinese astrology is Dog and it matches his personality ) but he doesn't really have any tact he just does what he wants while looking like an innocent lamb. I agree its a coping mechanism and that's why I don't agree with his methods. I don't recall Zero admitting there are good and bad vampires..?

Their goals are the same--wanting to protect and maintain peace. Zero even said to Kaien in chapter 50 that he'd placed aside his plans because he knows he needed the Kurans to help keep peace. Peace is more important to Zero than his personal revenge.

I agree he seems to be more into peace now however I think he still holds a few personal grudges regarding vampies for example the instinctive pull of his gun when Maria went near him indicates his former nature but ofc despite that we can see he still helps others before anything else

EXCEPT #8. Yuuki should know better after 5 years of knowing Zero to NEVER TOUCH HIS WRIST. This was nothing new. Pay attention to their body language and interaction in the first arc. Almost every time she grabbed his hand wrist or arm he said "Don't touch me". Also, pay attention to what she would grab instead of it...his sleeve. Likely because it wasn't skin to skin contact he was okay with her dragging him around by his clothes. Who knows if there is something remotely significant about this. It's just something to note. It was always the wrist...

interesting observation... however I don't see anything special about Zero's wrist, if he should be traumatized to anything it should be his neck where Shizuka bit him. though Zero's always been that way, human or pureblood Yuki touching him it seems to be his standard reaction

1. Harming Zero- I don't see her doing this to anyone else during this time. Maybe it's just because he was the closest one to her and easiest to get at. We all recall the scene where she tackled him to the ground and strangled him. But there was a very odd and out of place scene prior to this that is rarely mentioned.

http://www.mangareader.net/104-2157-16/vampire-knight/chapter-31.html

http://www.mangareader.net/104-2157-17/vampire-knight/chapter-31.html

Why this strange urge to harm Zero inparticular during this time where the spell was breaking within her?

Yuki sensed that there was something wrong with Zero so she pulled his hair as if to check if he was all right or if he was still acting the same Zero she knew

Chapter 34 has the scene with Yuuki strangling him. Two things were shown there. YMMV depending on interpretation but what I got out of it.

1. Zero had literally placed his life in Yuuki's hands. Not in a good way.

2. Yuuki needed Zero as much as he needed her. Again. Not in a good way.

Notice how this ends. Panic and Denial. Yuuki realizes how messed up Zero is because of what she's done and Zero straight out DENIES Yuuki's confession of her guilt. Yuuki freaks when Zero mentions Kaname because she had just told Zero she needed him and that in her mind was a huge betrayal to Kaname add on this selfishness she believes of herself for shoving Zero into this corner where he's living literally FOR her and not for himself like she intended. I'd freak out too and shove him out with a fake smile and laugh.

don't forget that Zero feels greatly indebted to Yuki for her chivalrous ways of offering her blood to him as a vampire, thats why he said in chapter 29 that even if he sacrifices his leftover life for her he would not utter a word of complaint. Yuki strangling him was Yuki killing him for no apparent reason and we see Zero's resolve to give her life to her even at this moment, living up to his words. Yuki realizes Zero's resolve for her, I don't think it was panic and denial though I think she was guilty, no she didn't feel like she betrayed Kaname that was no where in her thoughts
Its a fact that ever since Zero tasted Yuki's blood he knew Yuki's feelings for Kaname, ever since he knew that Yuki loved Kaname since he saw them together, Zero pushed her to Kaname and it has always been that way even in that moment where she strangled him
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2104-10/vampire-knight/chapter-11.html
The blood never lies. Nor is the blush on Yuki's face

Because the natural NEXT reaction to all that happened right then is something that's come up before. "What does Zero mean to me?"

this didn't show up anywhere in that chapter 34, hence it didn't happen.

Our dear Yuuki was mentally not able to think about this because she was going a little crazy during it...then everything went downhill and just moments later she was a pureblood vampire again. That whole scene had a purpose though. It impacted what each of them chose as their path. Especially Yuuki. She felt she just made things worse for him instead of helping him. She started by pushing him away and...what would have happened next we never got to see.

http://www.mangareader.net/104-2162-2/vampire-knight/chapter-36.html

http://www.mangareader.net/104-2162-3/vampire-knight/chapter-36.html

hm. I don't see how Yuki's prior interaction with Zero has to do with his hatred..? clearly she did not think , "What is Zero to me?" that didnt happen..or maybe its something found between the lines and i cant read it lol
I don't think it affected her decision to stay with kaname afterwards either. she loved the man since the beginning of the manga it was evident and with all the circumstances that she had and she will and she would stay with Kaname.

Yuki was simply delirious and she tried to excuse her delirious behavior. thats what it seemed to me
what happened afterwards is her trying to soften up zero's hatred but she knew she couldn't be forgiven for being a pureblood, she should know about it the most since she spent all years dealing with it

The question is how genuine is that hatred though?

oh i think its genuine. i think this has been shown countless times how zero hates vampires it would be a major twist if he was just faking his hatred

The pages above show that immediately after she was woken, Kaname posed the question to Zero. Which side?
In his room he struggled. In his cell he struggled.

zero's trying to deal with the fact that Yuki is a pureblood, the struggle meant having difficulty getting over it. since he pointed his gun to her afterwards its clear what he eventually has to say about yuki being a pureblood.

From 35-46 he struggled with what his choice would be. Vampire or Hunter. Finally he accepted the fact of what HE was. http://www.mangareader.net/104-2172-23/vampire-knight/chapter-46.html and was willing to give up everything for her sake.

and he was going to kill her while he was at it.

LOL. ok.. actually the fact is that he can't accept her nature, that was the whole purpose of parting their ways and pointing his gun. It was actually Yuki who gave him a purpose to live on, by running away she said, so he'll have a reason to chase after her.
but one year later none of that really happened, zero continued hating and yuki continued angsting..

A Zero still willing to give up everything for Yuuki's sake, something she felt was destructive to him.

Zero turned his back on everything that was her, and she was the one doing the understanding all over again. "understand him, his parents were killed by my kind and he displaced his anger on me. i have to deal with it for HIS sake" its how it looked like to me

sweetsolace wrote:why is everyone trying to justify Zero's behaviors?? lets just face it he's doing something wrong sometimes and he's going to get judged for it

We know he's not right about his actions (most of the times), there are just reasons why we can understand him. For some people those are good reasons , for others not. That depends on the pov, i guess. It's the same with all characters btw. Most zekis will defend Zero, and yumes won't accept his actions. Most yumes will defend kaname, and zekis wont accept his actions. It's just because with some characters you can identify (and agree with their reasoning) and with others you can not identify.

Anneliezz wrote:

sweetsolace wrote:why is everyone trying to justify Zero's behaviors?? lets just face it he's doing something wrong sometimes and he's going to get judged for it

We know he's not right about his actions (most of the times), there are just reasons why we can understand him. For some people those are good reasons , for others not. That depends on the pov, i guess. It's the same with all characters btw. Most zekis will defend Zero, and yumes won't accept his actions. Most yumes will defend kaname, and zekis wont accept his actions. It's just because with some characters you can identify (and agree with their reasoning) and with others you can not identify.

I agree, but it can be added that sometimses even bad characters are of whom we are fond. I'm YuMe fan so I'm trying to explain his behaviour but I also love him despite of his wrongs.

Snow wrote: The only reason Kaname gave him his blood was so that he would be stable enough to kill Rido. I agree with that, his hate increased after Kaname and Yuuki left the Academy but that was after he found out how he was used by Kaname as a tool for his plans.

I think you’re wrong on that. Kaname revealed his intentions to Zero early, prior give him his blood to stabilize him. He told him that his role was to be Yuuki’s shield and when he left from the academy he asked him to watch Yuuki for his behalf. It was a role that Zero gladly took. Also before Zero drinks from him, their conversation was around Yuuki and her happiness. It was also Zero’s choice to drink from him …
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2156-40/vampire-knight/chapter-30.html

Zero: “I want Yuuki to be able to laugh from her heart…
Kaname: “As I do”
Zero: There is no need for her to sacrifice anything...
Kaname: “That is correct”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2156-42/vampire-knight/chapter-30.html

And then he drinks from him …
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2156-45/vampire-knight/chapter-30.html

… so It was a “mutual agreement” … Zero had his own reasons for playing along with Kaname’s wishes.

Also to kill Rido was again a choice he made based on what he wanted … Kaname told him that he couldn’t kill Rido … he also knew that by killing Rido he would free Kaname from his “curse” and that Kaname was planning to take Yuuki from the academy …
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2165-24/vampire-knight/chapter-39.html
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2165-25/vampire-knight/chapter-39.html

So Kaname didn’t trick him, neither Zero realized what happened afterwards … he let him know everything before Zero kills Rido.
Ergo to kill Rido was his decision, partly for Yuuki and partly cuz Ichirou revealed to him that Rido was the culprit behind their tragedy …
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2166-17/vampire-knight/chapter-40.html

Waiting for a legal excuse to kill vampires still goes under the category of only killing vampires who pose a threat to humans. So far he has only killed the vampires on the hunter lists so there is a consensus among the hunters that those vampires should be eliminated. Personally I think only Level E vampires should be killed but if that is how the hunters want to go about it, far be it for me to judge them.

Agreed … he’s playing by the rules. The point is that he is been “accused” even from Kaito that has urges to kill. And he admits that he is waiting for the right excuse … so in a way his position as a hunter is his outlet for his hate.

IMO not only the level-es should be killed … do you believe that Asato, the senate or Shizuka, or Rido and now Sara could change? I don’t think so … their extermination was as, my life or yours …

Kaname's motives are unknown at the moment but he is still committing murders. When I said that Zero has enough reason to go after him wasn't because of his hate for Kaname but because of his recent crimes. Kaname probably does have a reason for his actions, but he is still doing wrong so he must be stopped. Not killed, just stopped.

Zero showed his hate for Kaname prior Kaname start to kill … I had posted enough examples on my previous post. Zero’s hate for Kaname is originated from his general hate for vampires and mostly for PBs, plus subconsciously cuz he took the girl he is in love with. And I’m not saying he is alone on this … Kaname also didn’t like him, but Zero hates him … his emotions are deeper than Kaname’s dislike.
Furthermore what Kaname “did” to him doesn’t justify his endless hate for Kaname. And IMO what Ichirou did was hundred times worse from what Kaname did to him…

And no … Kaname’s current actions don’t give him the right to kill. Kaname isn’t on hunters’ list for hunting him down … he is branded as temporary dangerous. Also a part of the mutual agreement was …

Kaname: “Our race will also take upon itself to deliver eternal sleep to any of our kind unduly presenting a threat to human lives”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-29253-25/vampire-knight/chapter-53.html

Clearly takes the responsibility to eliminate any threat coming from his kind, and the hunters agreed on that. So it remains to be seen what reasons he has and what threat his targets could be posing in order to judge if what he is doing is wrong. Of course his actions have brought uproar in vampires’ society like what happened after he wiped off the senate, but as it proved he was right about it (note that the senate first through Rido and then through the corrupted president of the hunters was planning to kill the whole NC aside from the role they played in Haruka’s and Juri’s death). So the hunters had no right or will to hunt him down for that as they don’t seem to have now as well.

Zero does have a lust for killing vampires but is still going by the rules so his “hate” isn't driving his actions. Even Yuuki knew about that vampire guy auctioning off humans, so he might have been on the lists. I don't know that for sure, it's just a guess.

I agree … his “hate” isn’t driving his actions. He is composed, playing by the rules and this is something that even Kaname acknowledges for him …
http://www.mangareader.net/104-33723-2/vampire-knight/chapter-54.html

But while he was acting legitimately synchronously his words indicate deep hate. So the question is; is he over with his hate or his job providing him the excuses that he need to kill?

When I wrote that “eventually he saw that Kaname wasn't bad,” I meant that he realized that Kaname wasn't a pureblood like Shizuka, one who would kill out of revenge.

I know he won’t attempt to kill Kaname randomly … as he said he waits the right excuse. IMO this is worse. It shows preconception and this is dangerous cuz in most cases leads to wrong judgements. In Shizuka’s case and in Rido’s case, he had all the rights in the world to want to kill them … his motive was justified cuz practically they ruined his life by committing crimes, but for Kaname why so much hate?
From every aspect and if you see it, what Kaname did to him it can’t be compared with what the other PBs did to him.

I'm judging Zero solely on his actions here. All of the examples you've put are good for showing that Zero wants to kill vampires but says he won't because he is waiting for the excuse.

And that’s why I didn’t accuse him of doing any crime. But again as I said above his words that he is just expecting the right opportunity to kill in my POV is worse. He admits that his need to kill is similar to the hunger that vampires have for blood. The way Zero puts his words is like he lives to kill … almost like he is “enjoying” himself. And this is something that has pointed out Kaito and Cross indirectly.

Kaito: “Hey I can feel your thirst for killing practically oozing out of your pores.”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-29253-6/vampire-knight/chapter-53.html

Kaito: “Zero from the way you were looking at that PB it was obvious that in your glare that you just wanted to kill him right on the spot.”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-29253-31/vampire-knight/chapter-53.html

Cross: “Kiryuu kun … please tell that cuz there weren’t enough killings to satisfy you …”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2178-18/vampire-knight/chapter-50.html

His own partners are questioning his motives and clarity …

Now he has that with Kaname. Zero can easily go after him, using the “excuse” that Kaname is killing vampires but it could actually be a pretense for his “hate.” He could do that and no one would judge him but he is still chose to stay behind at the Academy to watch over things there.

I answer to that above.

If Zero can be that rational especially with the vampire that he hates the most then I don't see Yuuki in danger at all from his urges to kill. This is the reason why I think that Zero's hate isn't the deciding factor for his actions.

I don’t believe that Zero will kill Yuuki. But Yuuki can’t be the “measure” for his judgement.

sari15 wrote: They have never seen eye to eye though. This isn't anything new. Their stances are pretty much the same from the first half of the series, yet they were able to work together as a team just fine because of their relationship. It's their relationship that's changed and this is on a much bigger playing field with much bigger players. They are literally just playing 'prefects' on a much larger scale.

Exactly, their relationship has changed. The new thing is that now they are “enemies” and not friends. They have the same interest but that doesn’t change that according to Zero they are on different boats. If you like is the same situation in the first arc … Kaname and Zero shared the same interest … we can say that they had collaborated to exterminate a few threats. Did that make them friends or changed their stances/emotions???

I do agree with pretty much everything Nina has said above. EXCEPT #8. Yuuki should know better after 5 years of knowing Zero to NEVER TOUCH HIS WRIST. This was nothing new. Pay attention to their body language and interaction in the first arc. Almost every time she grabbed his hand wrist or arm he said "Don't touch me". Also, pay attention to what she would grab instead of it...his sleeve. Likely because it wasn't skin to skin contact he was okay with her dragging him around by his clothes. Who knows if there is something remotely significant about this. It's just something to note. It was always the wrist...

I know … but I still don’t believe that Yuuki received his wording “don’t touch me” in the same way she was taking it before, for the simple reason that now are “enemies”. Yuuki believed that he was despising her. I think you can see the difference there. The liberties or the familiarity that they’ve shared as friends do not exist anymore, hence his behaviour can be judged differently now…

But there was a very odd and out of place scene prior to this that is rarely mentioned.

http://www.mangareader.net/104-2157-16/vampire-knight/chapter-31.html

Why this strange urge to harm Zero inparticular during this time where the spell was breaking within her?

In that scene Yuuki picked up the difference in Zero … in their previous meeting Zero was almost a level-e vampire … He was on the lowest point. After that Zero drank from Kaname and the next day was totally different “person”. I mean his state. This is what Yuuki sensed without knowing the reasons for his “revive” and grabbed his hair. I don’t think this particular scene has anything to do with her spell.

Notice how this ends. Panic and Denial. Yuuki realizes how messed up Zero is because of what she's done and Zero straight out DENIES Yuuki's confession of her guilt. Yuuki freaks when Zero mentions Kaname because she had just told Zero she needed him and that in her mind was a huge betrayal to Kaname add on this selfishness she believes of herself for shoving Zero into this corner where he's living literally FOR her and not for himself like she intended. I'd freak out too and shove him out with a fake smile and laugh. Because the natural NEXT reaction to all that happened right then is something that's come up before. "What does Zero mean to me?"

I don’t know how much weight has this scene … I think a part of the answer you gave it below >>>

Our dear Yuuki was mentally not able to think

Her mentality in that scene is on the edge of madness. The previous scene just proves it …

http://www.mangareader.net/104-2160-10/vampire-knight/chapter-34.html

… as well as the end of it >>>

http://www.mangareader.net/104-2160-19/vampire-knight/chapter-34.html

Now all that I see is a desperate Yuuki full of fears and guilt cuz ultimately she was using/helping Zero for her reasons.
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2160-13/vampire-knight/chapter-34.html

“That’s right these were all for myself, otherwise I wouldn’t have told Zero something that he really didn’t want to hear the most”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2160-14/vampire-knight/chapter-34.html

And she was partly right … aside from the fact that she had told him over and over again how she feels for Kaname, she also told him that she answered yes to Kaname that she wants to become a vampire. Even if she hadn’t realized his feelings for her still that was “cruel” from her part considering Zero’s trauma.
Neither have I seen panic or denial and moreover betrayal to Kaname … the dominate emotion is guilt from both sides. Yuuki cuz she was selfish and maybe she “used” Zero and Zero wants to lighten Yuuki’s burden cuz he feels indebted towards her hence and says that she doesn’t need him <<< something wrong IMO because Zero had a different role in her life and it wasn’t only Yuuki who helped Zero but also Zero helped Yuuki.
A part of her “hanging” to Zero was laid here >>>

“I tried my best not to think about me and Kaname cuz Kaname sempai and I are different”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2157-4/vampire-knight/chapter-31.html
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2157-5/vampire-knight/chapter-31.html

But I can’t see the relation of these scenes with Zero’s hate???

The question is how genuine is that hatred though? The pages above show that immediately after she was woken, Kaname posed the question to Zero. Which side? In his room he struggled. In his cell he struggled. There's an old saying "To love others, you have to love yourself." Zero has a massive case of self-hate as we all know. His purpose in life has never been a healthy one since the day Shizuka killed his family. 1st he was only living to get revenge on Shizuka. 2nd he was only living for Yuuki's sake.

The question wasn’t which side … The different sides were a given >>>”You’re on the side of hunters who try to hunt us down”. The question was >>> “What are you going to do?”. Kaname meant what his going to do with Rido. And as I said above Zero had enough reasons for himself to want to kill Rido. So, neither that scene answers if his hate was genuine.

From 35-46 he struggled with what his choice would be. Vampire or Hunter. Finally he accepted the fact of what HE was.
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2172-23/vampire-knight/chapter-46.html and was willing to give up everything for her sake.
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2172-25/vampire-knight/chapter-46.html

Zero was struggling to realize what happened … how Yuuki turned out to be a PB. And we saw which was his resolution … a pointed gun twice. From where you conclude that he was willing to give up everything??? All I can see is a Zero willing to give up the girl he loved over his hatred and not the other way around. It was his farewell to the Yuuki he knew, prior her transformation. For the real Yuuki viz the PB one he was an enemy.

In my POV Zero’s hate was genuine and he wasn’t pretend. As I said in my previous post if there is a change in him that happened during his visit at the graveyard. But still from that point and onwards he mostly kept his silence hence and we can’t be sure were exactly he stands now. I think he is on a fence and there are hints that could lead on one side but there are also hints that could lead on the other side. Example … in the 1st arc while his hate was hitting the red button, still he did the right thing. But that didn’t prevent him in the end to declare war …
In short … I wouldn’t be surprised from none development from his part cuz his silence coincided with the beginning of his “mission” >> Sara. He was very composed when Sara offered her blood. Can we say that he doesn’t want to kill her anymore or he doesn’t hate her? I think not. He had a reason to be cool and silent. And I’m not questioning which side he’s gonna take but his mentality and his emotional state.

Ps. Welcome on board Snow and Sari15.