Zero's hate

First topic message reminder :

How do you feel about Zero's hate? Is he justified because he has childhood trauma?

Snow wrote: The only reason Kaname gave him his blood was so that he would be stable enough to kill Rido. I agree with that, his hate increased after Kaname and Yuuki left the Academy but that was after he found out how he was used by Kaname as a tool for his plans.

I think you’re wrong on that. Kaname revealed his intentions to Zero early, prior give him his blood to stabilize him. He told him that his role was to be Yuuki’s shield and when he left from the academy he asked him to watch Yuuki for his behalf. It was a role that Zero gladly took. Also before Zero drinks from him, their conversation was around Yuuki and her happiness. It was also Zero’s choice to drink from him …
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2156-40/vampire-knight/chapter-30.html

Zero: “I want Yuuki to be able to laugh from her heart…
Kaname: “As I do”
Zero: There is no need for her to sacrifice anything...
Kaname: “That is correct”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2156-42/vampire-knight/chapter-30.html

And then he drinks from him …
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2156-45/vampire-knight/chapter-30.html

… so It was a “mutual agreement” … Zero had his own reasons for playing along with Kaname’s wishes.

Also to kill Rido was again a choice he made based on what he wanted … Kaname told him that he couldn’t kill Rido … he also knew that by killing Rido he would free Kaname from his “curse” and that Kaname was planning to take Yuuki from the academy …
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2165-24/vampire-knight/chapter-39.html
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2165-25/vampire-knight/chapter-39.html

So Kaname didn’t trick him, neither Zero realized what happened afterwards … he let him know everything before Zero kills Rido.
Ergo to kill Rido was his decision, partly for Yuuki and partly cuz Ichirou revealed to him that Rido was the culprit behind their tragedy …
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2166-17/vampire-knight/chapter-40.html

Waiting for a legal excuse to kill vampires still goes under the category of only killing vampires who pose a threat to humans. So far he has only killed the vampires on the hunter lists so there is a consensus among the hunters that those vampires should be eliminated. Personally I think only Level E vampires should be killed but if that is how the hunters want to go about it, far be it for me to judge them.

Agreed … he’s playing by the rules. The point is that he is been “accused” even from Kaito that has urges to kill. And he admits that he is waiting for the right excuse … so in a way his position as a hunter is his outlet for his hate.

IMO not only the level-es should be killed … do you believe that Asato, the senate or Shizuka, or Rido and now Sara could change? I don’t think so … their extermination was as, my life or yours …

Kaname's motives are unknown at the moment but he is still committing murders. When I said that Zero has enough reason to go after him wasn't because of his hate for Kaname but because of his recent crimes. Kaname probably does have a reason for his actions, but he is still doing wrong so he must be stopped. Not killed, just stopped.

Zero showed his hate for Kaname prior Kaname start to kill … I had posted enough examples on my previous post. Zero’s hate for Kaname is originated from his general hate for vampires and mostly for PBs, plus subconsciously cuz he took the girl he is in love with. And I’m not saying he is alone on this … Kaname also didn’t like him, but Zero hates him … his emotions are deeper than Kaname’s dislike.
Furthermore what Kaname “did” to him doesn’t justify his endless hate for Kaname. And IMO what Ichirou did was hundred times worse from what Kaname did to him…

And no … Kaname’s current actions don’t give him the right to kill. Kaname isn’t on hunters’ list for hunting him down … he is branded as temporary dangerous. Also a part of the mutual agreement was …

Kaname: “Our race will also take upon itself to deliver eternal sleep to any of our kind unduly presenting a threat to human lives”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-29253-25/vampire-knight/chapter-53.html

Clearly takes the responsibility to eliminate any threat coming from his kind, and the hunters agreed on that. So it remains to be seen what reasons he has and what threat his targets could be posing in order to judge if what he is doing is wrong. Of course his actions have brought uproar in vampires’ society like what happened after he wiped off the senate, but as it proved he was right about it (note that the senate first through Rido and then through the corrupted president of the hunters was planning to kill the whole NC aside from the role they played in Haruka’s and Juri’s death). So the hunters had no right or will to hunt him down for that as they don’t seem to have now as well.

Zero does have a lust for killing vampires but is still going by the rules so his “hate” isn't driving his actions. Even Yuuki knew about that vampire guy auctioning off humans, so he might have been on the lists. I don't know that for sure, it's just a guess.

I agree … his “hate” isn’t driving his actions. He is composed, playing by the rules and this is something that even Kaname acknowledges for him …
http://www.mangareader.net/104-33723-2/vampire-knight/chapter-54.html

But while he was acting legitimately synchronously his words indicate deep hate. So the question is; is he over with his hate or his job providing him the excuses that he need to kill?

When I wrote that “eventually he saw that Kaname wasn't bad,” I meant that he realized that Kaname wasn't a pureblood like Shizuka, one who would kill out of revenge.

I know he won’t attempt to kill Kaname randomly … as he said he waits the right excuse. IMO this is worse. It shows preconception and this is dangerous cuz in most cases leads to wrong judgements. In Shizuka’s case and in Rido’s case, he had all the rights in the world to want to kill them … his motive was justified cuz practically they ruined his life by committing crimes, but for Kaname why so much hate?
From every aspect and if you see it, what Kaname did to him it can’t be compared with what the other PBs did to him.

I'm judging Zero solely on his actions here. All of the examples you've put are good for showing that Zero wants to kill vampires but says he won't because he is waiting for the excuse.

And that’s why I didn’t accuse him of doing any crime. But again as I said above his words that he is just expecting the right opportunity to kill in my POV is worse. He admits that his need to kill is similar to the hunger that vampires have for blood. The way Zero puts his words is like he lives to kill … almost like he is “enjoying” himself. And this is something that has pointed out Kaito and Cross indirectly.

Kaito: “Hey I can feel your thirst for killing practically oozing out of your pores.”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-29253-6/vampire-knight/chapter-53.html

Kaito: “Zero from the way you were looking at that PB it was obvious that in your glare that you just wanted to kill him right on the spot.”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-29253-31/vampire-knight/chapter-53.html

Cross: “Kiryuu kun … please tell that cuz there weren’t enough killings to satisfy you …”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2178-18/vampire-knight/chapter-50.html

His own partners are questioning his motives and clarity …

Now he has that with Kaname. Zero can easily go after him, using the “excuse” that Kaname is killing vampires but it could actually be a pretense for his “hate.” He could do that and no one would judge him but he is still chose to stay behind at the Academy to watch over things there.

I answer to that above.

If Zero can be that rational especially with the vampire that he hates the most then I don't see Yuuki in danger at all from his urges to kill. This is the reason why I think that Zero's hate isn't the deciding factor for his actions.

I don’t believe that Zero will kill Yuuki. But Yuuki can’t be the “measure” for his judgement.

sari15 wrote: They have never seen eye to eye though. This isn't anything new. Their stances are pretty much the same from the first half of the series, yet they were able to work together as a team just fine because of their relationship. It's their relationship that's changed and this is on a much bigger playing field with much bigger players. They are literally just playing 'prefects' on a much larger scale.

Exactly, their relationship has changed. The new thing is that now they are “enemies” and not friends. They have the same interest but that doesn’t change that according to Zero they are on different boats. If you like is the same situation in the first arc … Kaname and Zero shared the same interest … we can say that they had collaborated to exterminate a few threats. Did that make them friends or changed their stances/emotions???

I do agree with pretty much everything Nina has said above. EXCEPT #8. Yuuki should know better after 5 years of knowing Zero to NEVER TOUCH HIS WRIST. This was nothing new. Pay attention to their body language and interaction in the first arc. Almost every time she grabbed his hand wrist or arm he said "Don't touch me". Also, pay attention to what she would grab instead of it...his sleeve. Likely because it wasn't skin to skin contact he was okay with her dragging him around by his clothes. Who knows if there is something remotely significant about this. It's just something to note. It was always the wrist...

I know … but I still don’t believe that Yuuki received his wording “don’t touch me” in the same way she was taking it before, for the simple reason that now are “enemies”. Yuuki believed that he was despising her. I think you can see the difference there. The liberties or the familiarity that they’ve shared as friends do not exist anymore, hence his behaviour can be judged differently now…

But there was a very odd and out of place scene prior to this that is rarely mentioned.

http://www.mangareader.net/104-2157-16/vampire-knight/chapter-31.html

Why this strange urge to harm Zero inparticular during this time where the spell was breaking within her?

In that scene Yuuki picked up the difference in Zero … in their previous meeting Zero was almost a level-e vampire … He was on the lowest point. After that Zero drank from Kaname and the next day was totally different “person”. I mean his state. This is what Yuuki sensed without knowing the reasons for his “revive” and grabbed his hair. I don’t think this particular scene has anything to do with her spell.

Notice how this ends. Panic and Denial. Yuuki realizes how messed up Zero is because of what she's done and Zero straight out DENIES Yuuki's confession of her guilt. Yuuki freaks when Zero mentions Kaname because she had just told Zero she needed him and that in her mind was a huge betrayal to Kaname add on this selfishness she believes of herself for shoving Zero into this corner where he's living literally FOR her and not for himself like she intended. I'd freak out too and shove him out with a fake smile and laugh. Because the natural NEXT reaction to all that happened right then is something that's come up before. "What does Zero mean to me?"

I don’t know how much weight has this scene … I think a part of the answer you gave it below >>>

Our dear Yuuki was mentally not able to think

Her mentality in that scene is on the edge of madness. The previous scene just proves it …

http://www.mangareader.net/104-2160-10/vampire-knight/chapter-34.html

… as well as the end of it >>>

http://www.mangareader.net/104-2160-19/vampire-knight/chapter-34.html

Now all that I see is a desperate Yuuki full of fears and guilt cuz ultimately she was using/helping Zero for her reasons.
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2160-13/vampire-knight/chapter-34.html

“That’s right these were all for myself, otherwise I wouldn’t have told Zero something that he really didn’t want to hear the most”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2160-14/vampire-knight/chapter-34.html

And she was partly right … aside from the fact that she had told him over and over again how she feels for Kaname, she also told him that she answered yes to Kaname that she wants to become a vampire. Even if she hadn’t realized his feelings for her still that was “cruel” from her part considering Zero’s trauma.
Neither have I seen panic or denial and moreover betrayal to Kaname … the dominate emotion is guilt from both sides. Yuuki cuz she was selfish and maybe she “used” Zero and Zero wants to lighten Yuuki’s burden cuz he feels indebted towards her hence and says that she doesn’t need him <<< something wrong IMO because Zero had a different role in her life and it wasn’t only Yuuki who helped Zero but also Zero helped Yuuki.
A part of her “hanging” to Zero was laid here >>>

“I tried my best not to think about me and Kaname cuz Kaname sempai and I are different”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2157-4/vampire-knight/chapter-31.html
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2157-5/vampire-knight/chapter-31.html

But I can’t see the relation of these scenes with Zero’s hate???

The question is how genuine is that hatred though? The pages above show that immediately after she was woken, Kaname posed the question to Zero. Which side? In his room he struggled. In his cell he struggled. There's an old saying "To love others, you have to love yourself." Zero has a massive case of self-hate as we all know. His purpose in life has never been a healthy one since the day Shizuka killed his family. 1st he was only living to get revenge on Shizuka. 2nd he was only living for Yuuki's sake.

The question wasn’t which side … The different sides were a given >>>”You’re on the side of hunters who try to hunt us down”. The question was >>> “What are you going to do?”. Kaname meant what his going to do with Rido. And as I said above Zero had enough reasons for himself to want to kill Rido. So, neither that scene answers if his hate was genuine.

From 35-46 he struggled with what his choice would be. Vampire or Hunter. Finally he accepted the fact of what HE was.
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2172-23/vampire-knight/chapter-46.html and was willing to give up everything for her sake.
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2172-25/vampire-knight/chapter-46.html

Zero was struggling to realize what happened … how Yuuki turned out to be a PB. And we saw which was his resolution … a pointed gun twice. From where you conclude that he was willing to give up everything??? All I can see is a Zero willing to give up the girl he loved over his hatred and not the other way around. It was his farewell to the Yuuki he knew, prior her transformation. For the real Yuuki viz the PB one he was an enemy.

In my POV Zero’s hate was genuine and he wasn’t pretend. As I said in my previous post if there is a change in him that happened during his visit at the graveyard. But still from that point and onwards he mostly kept his silence hence and we can’t be sure were exactly he stands now. I think he is on a fence and there are hints that could lead on one side but there are also hints that could lead on the other side. Example … in the 1st arc while his hate was hitting the red button, still he did the right thing. But that didn’t prevent him in the end to declare war …
In short … I wouldn’t be surprised from none development from his part cuz his silence coincided with the beginning of his “mission” >> Sara. He was very composed when Sara offered her blood. Can we say that he doesn’t want to kill her anymore or he doesn’t hate her? I think not. He had a reason to be cool and silent. And I’m not questioning which side he’s gonna take but his mentality and his emotional state.

Ps. Welcome on board Snow and Sari15.

nina wrote:
Exactly, their relationship has changed. The new thing is that now they are “enemies” and not friends. They have the same interest but that doesn’t change that according to Zero they are on different boats. If you like is the same situation in the first arc … Kaname and Zero shared the same interest … we can say that they had collaborated to exterminate a few threats. Did that make them friends or changed their stances/emotions???

Yes, it is very similar to that except for the fact that there is a previous amicable relationship between the two of them where Kaname and Zero just--don't. As Kaname said to Zero once--their feelings are likely the same about Yuuki. The difference is motivation. Is there motivation for Kaname and Zero to be friends? No. Is there motivation for Zero and Yuuki to be? Yes. It's fairly obvious it's not a one way situation as well since Yuuki actually came out and SAID it to Zero in 73. Zero's been walking around with sad emo face whenever her back is turned since he first saw her again at the ball. There is likely desire on both sides to mend this fence at least a little.

I know … but I still don’t believe that Yuuki received his wording “don’t touch me” in the same way she was taking it before, for the simple reason that now are “enemies”. Yuuki believed that he was despising her. I think you can see the difference there. The liberties or the familiarity that they’ve shared as friends do not exist anymore, hence his behaviour can be judged differently now…

LOL So he's supposed to let her drag him around now that she's a vampire? It's consistant behavior across the board. Yes, I agree she sees it differently because of the circumstances but it's just simple 'Personal Boundaries 101' for Zero. He'd say the same thing to Yori if she did it. Even on her walk into the Hunters Association when Zero was walking out with Kaito there is a scene...
http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/69/5
Kaito is constantly on Zero about things. We have a scene of Zero messing with his neck--obviously thirsty. Next in that last panel the two of them look like they are fighting over...something. My guess is Kaito grabbed Zero's wrist and yanked his hand from his neck. Zero is yanking his hand back.
Point is, Yuuki's belief that Zero doesn't want to be touched because he's disgusted by her isn't a good indicator of his hate. He just doesn't like to be touched. It's a consistant character trait.

In that scene Yuuki picked up the difference in Zero … in their previous meeting Zero was almost a level-e vampire … He was on the lowest point. After that Zero drank from Kaname and the next day was totally different “person”. I mean his state. This is what Yuuki sensed without knowing the reasons for his “revive” and grabbed his hair. I don’t think this particular scene has anything to do with her spell.

See, I always got the impression that she was a little zoned out and did it without thought. Because why just suddenly yank someone's hair out like that? Seems like a weird way to get attention. I get that she felt something was off but it just seemed a little odd to randomly yank out someone's hair. *shrugs* It's Yuuki.

I don’t know how much weight has this scene … I think a part of the answer you gave it below >>>

Our dear Yuuki was mentally not able to think

Her mentality in that scene is on the edge of madness. The previous scene just proves it …

http://www.mangareader.net/104-2160-10/vampire-knight/chapter-34.html

… as well as the end of it >>>

http://www.mangareader.net/104-2160-19/vampire-knight/chapter-34.html

Now all that I see is a desperate Yuuki full of fears and guilt cuz ultimately she was using/helping Zero for her reasons.
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2160-13/vampire-knight/chapter-34.html

“That’s right these were all for myself, otherwise I wouldn’t have told Zero something that he really didn’t want to hear the most”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2160-14/vampire-knight/chapter-34.html

And she was partly right … aside from the fact that she had told him over and over again how she feels for Kaname, she also told him that she answered yes to Kaname that she wants to become a vampire. Even if she hadn’t realized his feelings for her still that was “cruel” from her part considering Zero’s trauma.
Neither have I seen panic or denial and moreover betrayal to Kaname … the dominate emotion is guilt from both sides. Yuuki cuz she was selfish and maybe she “used” Zero and Zero wants to lighten Yuuki’s burden cuz he feels indebted towards her hence and says that she doesn’t need him <<< something wrong IMO because Zero had a different role in her life and it wasn’t only Yuuki who helped Zero but also Zero helped Yuuki.
A part of her “hanging” to Zero was laid here >>>

“I tried my best not to think about me and Kaname cuz Kaname sempai and I are different”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2157-4/vampire-knight/chapter-31.html
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2157-5/vampire-knight/chapter-31.html

But I can’t see the relation of these scenes with Zero’s hate???

I agree with everything you said above concerning that scene up to the point that Zero actually questions her and pretty much rejects her confession. It's how things are said and done immediately after that, it changes everything. Everything Yuuki said to Zero was genuine, right? You believe that. I believe that. Like Zero said "It sounds like you're saying you need me" That is exactly what she was saying to him.

She needed him tied tighter and tighter to her for her own sake. She shoved him into this corner so he would depend on her as much as she depended on him and that's exactly what happened. Thing is, that was the type of relationship they already had just like you said. A healthy co-dependent relationship that because of her desperation to not lose him got twisted to unhealthy. She's telling him all this for the exact same reason and doesn't really even realize it until he calls her out on it.
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2160-15/vampire-knight/chapter-34.html
Yuuki sits through all of this in shock, wide eyed like a deer in headlights. This is obviously news to her. She doesn't say it's not true. She doesn't agree or disagree with his assessment. But it's obvious this is a moment of shock for her because she just sits there on top of Zero. Zero has just compared the way she needs him to the way she needs Kaname and told her she didn't need him. Personally I think she looks a little stunned and not sure what to think at this point. Zero's the one who brought Kaname into the picture and placed them side by side for a comparison. He gave his answer, saying she needed Kaname not him.

Look at this from Yuuki's point of view. This contridicts everything she's been telling herself about her relationship with Kaname, who she is lovers with by this time AND admitting it would be admitting she's harmed Zero beyond belief by trying to help him. Admitting the truth is a lose/lose situation here. But the seed of awareness is planted that gets buried with everything else.
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2160-17/vampire-knight/chapter-34.html
It is Yuuki who changed her tactics from this point on. She consciously decided NOT to depend on Zero anymore and started saying things to shove him away. But as I said before immediately everything changed because she was turned back into her vampire form soon after without seeing him again. Hurting Kaname-not okay. Hurting Zero-not okay. Hurting herself-okay.

As I said before

From 35-46 he struggled with what his choice would be. Vampire or Hunter. Finally he accepted the fact of what HE was.
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2172-23/vampire-knight/chapter-46.html and was willing to give up everything for her sake.
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2172-25/vampire-knight/chapter-46.html

Why do you think he asked that? He just kissed her and gave his confession in the most tsundere manner ever--to the point that she didn't even REALIZE he was confessing his feelings until like five minutes later. He does hate vampires but chose HER over everything in the end. Asking if she still needed him. It was a last ditch effort not to lose her. We all know she lied to him. She pretty much admitted as much in 73 by saying it wasn't that she didn't need him, but they just had to be enemies. She lied and cut him loose for his own sake.
Yuuki is an exception that he knows he shouldn't have.

Thanks for the welcome Nina! =)
Since you and sweetsolace's replies are somewhat the same hopefully you guys won't mind me replying in one culminating whole?

I agree that Zero was being irrational but if you look back even Kaname could sympathize with him at that moment. Now we're just getting to opinions. I don't think Yuuki and Kaien were trying to understand Zero, they could and that's why they accepted him as he was. I also think him emitting his hatred was a little much but he was in a school that puts vampires and humans together so he had to stay on his toes since he knows the vampire nature. They're not all good.

I read that scene over again, where Kaname was revealing the extent of his plan to Zero and I saw a lot of psychological manipulation. Kaname played heavily on Zero's guilt from drinking his blood, Yuuki's blood, and from taking Ichiru's power in the womb. But most of all Kaname knew about Zero's attachment to Yuuki and knew that if it was for her, he would act according to his plans. This and with the mind that in the end, he would take Yuuki and leave the Academy.
There are a numerous ways to manipulate someone. Kaname used Zero's vulnerabilities, knowing that he would comply based on his personality alone. It's true that Zero had a choice whether or not to follow but everything including his choice was taken into account when Kaname devised this plan. It worked because Kaname knew Zero well enough to be able to predict how he would react when the situation finally arrived.
I don't think Zero's hate for Kaname and his lust to kill him has to do with Yuuki or he would have tried to kill him earlier since Yuuki has expressed her love for Kaname since the beginning. I also don't think it was because he turned her back into a pureblood either because she is one originally and already told her that she “did nothing wrong.”
I also think that Ichiru's actions really sucked. I'm amazed Zero could forgive him. But I'm not going to compare him and Kaname because in my opinion, what they both did was wrong.

I didn't remember that statement from Kaname that he would take responsibility for his own. Thanks for telling me. I do agree that what Kaname is doing probably has a good reason backing it up but I still don't think killing is ever the best way to handle anything.

About the “legal excuse” issue, I agree that Zero's hate is a huge factor in that. When Zero mentioned that to Kaien, I didn't like that he was still harboring so much hatred but it still showed restraint on his part. I'm trying to look at his actions as a whole. Right before the time skip he was dead set on killing all purebloods whatever the reason. Since then he has calmed down enough so that he will only do it if they break the rules. The “rules” have always an issue with me because we never get to hear the specifics. Apparently purebloods like Sara can change humans if they are willing, the one rule that stopped Zero from killing Sara. I don't know about you guys but I find too many loopholes in that rule. That's why I feel like for Zero to find a legal excuse to kill a vampire means that that vampire did something damn bad. So, in my opinion Zero has already developed a lot as a character. He knows that not all vampires are bad and so has never wrongly persecuted any of them. It's a real growing process with him and he is still growing so while I think currently his hatred is still there, it has softened. So we'll see by the end of the story.

This is my take on all of this. Feel free to disagree but I just wanted to put my perspective out there.

sari15 wrote:She needed him tied tighter and tighter to her for her own sake. She shoved him into this corner so he would depend on her as much as she depended on him and that's exactly what happened. Thing is, that was the type of relationship they already had just like you said.

Zero has the right to repay his debts to her, he realizes this "obligation" when Kaname told him to, that's why he's helping her with everything. Yuki's the only one feeling guilty for "using" Zero but I think he doesn't mind it. I think Zero's being too obliging and its making Yuki feel guilty IMO.

A healthy co-dependent relationship that because of her desperation to not lose him got twisted to unhealthy.

hm im confused, Yuki doesn't seem "desperate" not to lose him, because she already has Zero tagging behind her. IMO she has no reason to feel fear losing him, because he is offering his self for her, she has reason to feel guilty though

Yuuki sits through all of this in shock, wide eyed like a deer in headlights. This is obviously news to her. She doesn't say it's not true. She doesn't agree or disagree with his assessment. But it's obvious this is a moment of shock for her because she just sits there on top of Zero.

I think she's shock because of Zero's compliance. Yuki just choked him, then she was mean and revealed the truth that she was taking advantage of him, and Zero doesn't react much. Furthermore he tells her that she only needs Kaname, which was the truth he had known ever since. Its like telling her that she can use him and take advantage of him in every way including taking his life and he won't complain about it, he will even give her the man she's happy to be with.
I think the "shock" was generally for that notion. Yuki knew she had done "that" to Zero, and she apologizes. She made him feel indebted to her because she helped him with her blood.

Zero has just compared the way she needs him to the way she needs Kaname and told her she didn't need him.

No he didn't compare. Comparing is, saying Yuki needs Zero a lot but she also needs Kaname more. He pointed out the fact that Yuki does need Zero. But in his perception the only one she needs is Kaname. He was making assumptions or he was manipulating the way she thinks by pushing her to Kaname.

Look at this from Yuuki's point of view. This contridicts everything she's been telling herself about her relationship with Kaname, who she is lovers with by this time AND admitting it would be admitting she's harmed Zero beyond belief by trying to help him. Admitting the truth is a lose/lose situation here. But the seed of awareness is planted that gets buried with everything else.
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2160-17/vampire-knight/chapter-34.html
It is Yuuki who changed her tactics from this point on. She consciously decided NOT to depend on Zero anymore and started saying things to shove him away. But as I said before immediately everything changed because she was turned back into her vampire form soon after without seeing him again. Hurting Kaname-not okay. Hurting Zero-not okay. Hurting herself-okay.

she loves Kaname, but she needs Zero. I don't think it's the same hence it doesn't contradict. She needs Zero, but she feels terribly guilty for it because he is practically offering his life for her. I don't think she understands the fact that Zero feels indebted to her because she gave him her blood. But she feels sorry for doing "that" to him--for making him feel indebted, IMO. She cannot help but need Zero, she needed Zero to be there when she confessed to Kaname, she needed Zero to be there when she wants to find out more about her past, etc. Yuki needs Zero, if she admits it it would be admitting she is hurting him, and so she doesn't and "changed tactic". Yuki played the bad girl. But like you said everything changed when she was turned.

He does hate vampires but chose HER over everything in the end. Asking if she still needed him. It was a last ditch effort not to lose her. We all know she lied to him. She pretty much admitted as much in 73 by saying it wasn't that she didn't need him, but they just had to be enemies. She lied and cut him loose for his own sake.
Yuuki is an exception that he knows he shouldn't have.

I really don't understand that part where you say that Zero "chose HER over everything in the end" because he didn't. In the end he couldn't accept her, that was the whoooole point of telling her those rude things about killing her as the last words he said.
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2172-28/vampire-knight/chapter-46.html
He didn't ask if she needed him, he asked if her worries and fears were gone.
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2172-25/vampire-knight/chapter-46.html
IMO I don't think it would change the words he said after that, he is still determined to kill vampires
I don't think it will change his mind even if Yuki answered "No my worries and fears still remain, especially after you said you will kill me" LOL ok jokes aside do you really think Zero will go back if Yuki said she still needed him? i think not..
so that part was a farewell greeting IMO however it doesnt change anything what zero already decided

snow wrote:I read that scene over again, where Kaname was revealing the extent of his plan to Zero and I saw a lot of psychological manipulation. Kaname played heavily on Zero's guilt from drinking his blood, Yuuki's blood, and from taking Ichiru's power in the womb.But most of all Kaname knew about Zero's attachment to Yuuki and knew that if it was for her, he would act according to his plans. This and with the mind that in the end, he would take Yuuki and leave the Academy.

psychological manipulation is Kaname telling Zero over and over again to act like a dog and Zero starts acting like a dog and starts barking and biting. Manipulation is doing something you're not supposed to do because someone said you should and you're "manipulated into it.
You realize yourself that Kaname's words were also Zero's intentions: to protect Yuki. So even if he doesn't say that Zero will still protect Yuki. Kaname did not play on Zero's guilt, it was already present, Zero already committed to give his life for Yuki because of what she did to him, so Kaname was stating a fact. Kaname knew about Zero's attachment to Yuki and he used what occurred there to what would have been already coming, its like saying Kaname predicted the rainfall that would occur later, but he didn't cause the rainfall. Zero and Yuki got close, Zero eventually decides to protect her. What Kaname said was either a fact or a prediction, and he told this to Zero, but he couldn't possibly consider his words as manipulation, because even if he didn't say it Zero would also do it by himself, just like Zero killing Rido fits Kaname's prediction.

There are a numerous ways to manipulate someone. Kaname used Zero's vulnerabilities, knowing that he would comply based on his personality alone.

so can you consider that when Zero told Yuki the only one for her was Kaname he was also manipulating her? Actually yes, i think its a form of psychological manipulation, he was conditioning her mind by putting words on her mouth, saying she only needs Kaname ever since he saw the "truth" in her blood. Maybe it was even Zero who made Yuki fall in love more with Kaname

It's true that Zero had a choice whether or not to follow but everything including his choice was taken into account when Kaname devised this plan. It worked because Kaname knew Zero well enough to be able to predict how he would react when the situation finally arrived.

yep. That's why Kaname is brilliant. He predicted the outcome without even manipulating anyone or forcing someone to do it.

I don't think Zero's hate for Kaname and his lust to kill him has to do with Yuuki or he would have tried to kill him earlier since Yuuki has expressed her love for Kaname since the beginning. I also don't think it was because he turned her back into a pureblood either because she is one originally and already told her that she “did nothing wrong.”

Maybe it has to do with Yuki... like I said previously I see no reason for Zero to displace his anger towards Kaname, as Kaname merely predicted his actions and he had not caused other damages in his life, not like what Shizuka or Rido did. But Zero considers Kaname as "the root cause of all this", its strange that he would think that way right after Yuki rejected and left him. So I sense a host of bitter feelings there.

I didn't remember that statement from Kaname that he would take responsibility for his own. Thanks for telling me.

http://www.mangareader.net/104-2173-28/vampire-knight/chapter-47.html

I do agree that what Kaname is doing probably has a good reason backing it up but I still don't think killing is ever the best way to handle anything.

LOL Im amazed you can say the same thing for Kaname when Zero pretty much also did the same thing when he killed the vampire without further questioning! So I ask you the same question, is killing the best way to handle everything in Zero's case? You casually say that the vampire was probably on the execution list, but what if he wasn't? then what he did was his way of dealing with the situation, which was to kill, and killing as you say is not the best way to handle everything, even Yuki said so

About the “legal excuse” issue, I agree that Zero's hate is a huge factor in that. When Zero mentioned that to Kaien, I didn't like that he was still harboring so much hatred but it still showed restraint on his part. I'm trying to look at his actions as a whole. Right before the time skip he was dead set on killing all purebloods whatever the reason. Since then he has calmed down enough so that he will only do it if they break the rules. The “rules” have always an issue with me because we never get to hear the specifics. Apparently purebloods like Sara can change humans if they are willing, the one rule that stopped Zero from killing Sara. I don't know about you guys but I find too many loopholes in that rule. That's why I feel like for Zero to find a legal excuse to kill a vampire means that that vampire did something damn bad. So, in my opinion Zero has already developed a lot as a character. He knows that not all vampires are bad and so has never wrongly persecuted any of them. It's a real growing process with him and he is still growing so while I think currently his hatred is still there, it has softened. So we'll see by the end of the story.

this real "growing process" is not as consistent as you think. Every now and then he snaps and this is not exactly a sign that he's stable, most recently he snaps because of yuki's presence, but i agree ever since chapter 59 he's been making improvements
the loopholes in that rule, the hunters are also stumped by it so it was not only Zero who was stumped but the rest of the hunters and that detered them from harming a hair on Sara's head, so yes its probably also a loophole that she remains innocent and free until now, which I doubt is the entire case

sari15 wrote: Yes, it is very similar to that except for the fact that there is a previous amicable relationship between the two of them where Kaname and Zero just--don't. As Kaname said to Zero once--their feelings are likely the same about Yuuki. The difference is motivation. Is there motivation for Kaname and Zero to be friends? No. Is there motivation for Zero and Yuuki to be? Yes. It's fairly obvious it's not a one way situation as well since Yuuki actually came out and SAID it to Zero in 73. Zero's been walking around with sad emo face whenever her back is turned since he first saw her again at the ball. There is likely desire on both sides to mend this fence at least a little.

Yes. However my point was that an instant common interest isn’t necessarily an indication of change. It could work as a step forward but it could not. The problem is that the only obvious motivation that I see is from Yuuki’s part … Zero rejected her wish to talk like they used to, by saying she is weird, basing her wish on the lack of fresh blood. And his following coercion in order to make Yuuki drink his blood isn’t exactly “friendly” …

So he's supposed to let her drag him around now that she's a vampire?

This soft touch >>>
http://www.mangareader.net/104-33723-20/vampire-knight/chapter-54.html

>>> is considered dragging????

Then this >>>http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/73/37

and this >>> http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/73/37

I suppose you see it as a raw abuse then … or Zero has the right to treat Yuuki like a “punching bag” cuz is a tsundere???

And just a remark cuz I’ve seen many times the excuse of tsundere … this excuse that Zero is a tsundere so he is justified for his constantly roughness and hostility is overused and signifies zero reasoning to back him up. I’m a big fan of tsundere charas … almost in every manga I choose the tsundere one as my fave so I know the traits very well. Probably if there wasn’t Kaname or if Zero was the protagonist in another manga I would be head over heels with the guy lol. That’s why I like him.
However the tsundere worked pretty well as a reason on the 1st arc because they had a different relationship hence and Zero had the opportunities to show sometimes the tsoun part, and other times the dere part of him. So it was ok, it was a real reason cuz there was a balance.
Now with the distance that exists between them and the enemies status it doesn’t work, for the simple reason that he shows mostly the tsun part … the dere side of his character is “buried” in the 1st arc and deep inside his heart. The few moves he made which show that he still is also a “dere” Yuuki didn’t know or he camouflaged it. That’s why I’m saying that now it works mostly as an excuse, as the last resort and that’s why I believe that he is hurting her cuz the dere trait even if still exists doesn’t show hence doesn’t bring balance.

My guess is Kaito grabbed Zero's wrist and yanked his hand from his neck.

You’re guessing though.

Point is, Yuuki's belief that Zero doesn't want to be touched because he's disgusted by her isn't a good indicator of his hate. He just doesn't like to be touched. It's a consistant character trait.

I can show you many scenes where Yuuki touched him and he didn’t react in the same way …
I think you missing my point though … I didn’t say that he yanked her cuz he was really disgusted by her touch … in most cases he shoved her away cuz he felt agitated by his bloodlust. He has sensitivity on his hand which seems to be related with the BR and the veins >>>
http://www.mangareader.net/104-37352-18/vampire-knight/chapter-55.html

Maybe it has to do with the Kurans blood which runs through his veins as Kaname told him and somehow activated >>>
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2165-22/vampire-knight/chapter-39.html

I know that already … the point is HOW Yuuki received his “don’t touch me” NOW that they are enemies!? Sure that alone isn’t a solid indication of his hate, but I’m afraid isn’t the only one signal that he sent to her.
If you believe that she thought it was his character trait and it didn’t hurt her then we can agree to disagree on that. I’ve explained my view over this, above about the tsundere characteristic.

Zero actually questions her and pretty much rejects her confession.

Confession? I hope you don’t mean a romantic one???!!!

He gave his answer, saying she needed Kaname not him.

Yes because he knew with whom Yuuki was IN LOVE. Even if you want to erase all the emotions that Yuuki obviously was constantly feeling and has describe with words for Kaname many-many times … as sweetsolace said above the blood never lies …
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2104-10/vampire-knight/chapter-11.html

So yes Yuuki needed Zero. It was obvious that she was hanging on him all the time when her relationship with Kaname was distanced after the incident with Ruka. She purposely distanced her self from him cuz she thought that Kaname could never be hers due to their different nature. But Zero never took the place in her heart as a love interest. That’s why I said that Zero was wrong … he needed him but not as a replacement for Kaname.

This contridicts everything she's been telling herself about her relationship with Kaname, who she is lovers with by this time

*THUD* Really? That scene contradicts and outweighs all that Yuuki felt and said all this time for Kaname huh? Then I can’t understand how you agree with my previous analysis and in the end you’ve reached in that conclusion!?

I’m sorry but in my mind a few scenes here and there full of ambiguity and stuffed with many additional reasons (guilt, fears, desperation, dark thoughts etc) to justify them, could never outweighed the crystal clear feelings of romantic love which are spread all over the story.

The history can not be written with IFS …

Why do you think he asked that?

I guess you’re referring on his question if she got rid all of her worries and fears?
If so my answer is the same that I gave you before … this was his farewell to the HUMAN Yuuki that he loved. He kissed and confessed to the human Yuuki but he declared the war to the current TRUE Yuuki … the PB one. <<< This indicates that at least in that moment chose his hate over his love … so your interpretation that >>>

He does hate vampires but chose HER over everything in the end.

Still I am unable to see where you based it on, since the written END was that >>>
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2172-27/vampire-knight/chapter-46.html
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2172-28/vampire-knight/chapter-46.html

“The next time we meet I will kill you Yuuki” …

Note also that Zero drank her blood again, just before they were parted, so Yuuki’s lies that all her worries vanished have no real value since the blood betrays the truth either way. That’s why I’m saying that whatever Yuuki and if had told him, he knew first hand her true emotions. Moreover, for that reason weren’t all Zekis anticipating for Yuuki to bite him so she could realise his true feelings despite what he says???

She pretty much admitted as much in 73 by saying it wasn't that she didn't need him, but they just had to be enemies

Is the need to talk like they used to equal to a love confession???
I guess that’s why I am a Yume and you are a Zeki … my definition of love=eros not a need to talk like before, or need to restore our previous relationship which was friendship and not a romantic one … nor to “erase” the enemies status which btw was Zero’s choice and not hers. The feeling of love comes natural … like the air you breath … it doesn’t need to rack your brain to figure out what that person means to me? lol. You just feel it without any reason … that’s the magic of love! XD.
But I guess we can agree on something haha … I want too for Yuuki to answer loud and clear what Zero is for her …

Snow wrote: I read that scene over again, where Kaname was revealing the extent of his plan to Zero and I saw a lot of psychological manipulation. Kaname played heavily on Zero's guilt from drinking his blood, Yuuki's blood, and from taking Ichiru's power in the womb. But most of all Kaname knew about Zero's attachment to Yuuki and knew that if it was for her, he would act according to his plans. This and with the mind that in the end, he would take Yuuki and leave the Academy.

Definition for manipulation:
-to control or play upon by artful, unfair or insidious means especially to one’s own advantage.

So I think the term manipulation doesn’t fit exactly in Kaname’s case since Zero knew everything before hand, hence the insidious part is cancelled, he had a choice hence the control was his and then he chose what to do having his own reasons, ergo the “one’s own advantage” (>> viz Kaname’s) doesn’t apply.

sweetsolace wrote: Kaname knew about Zero's attachment to Yuki and he used what occurred there to what would have been already coming, its like saying Kaname predicted the rainfall that would occur later, but he didn't cause the rainfall. Zero and Yuki got close, Zero eventually decides to protect her. What Kaname said was either a fact or a prediction, and he told this to Zero, but he couldn't possibly consider his words as manipulation, because even if he didn't say it Zero would also do it by himself, just like Zero killing Rido fits Kaname's prediction.
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yep. That's why Kaname is brilliant. He predicted the outcome without even manipulating anyone or forcing someone to do it

Lol I couldn’t identify with that more!

Yes Kaname pushed the right Zero’s buttons, but he didn’t create his guilt over Yuuki or Ichirou … it was there all along and Kaname pointed out. Kaname suffered too from this process, he forgave the unforgivable as he said, till the time comes for Rido’s execution. Also the gain was bigger for all of them … not only for himself but for Yuuki and for Zero as well.
The right description is as sweetsolace said above … he predicted the outcome and had adjusted his plans accordingly. And he was brilliant cuz even Zero gained for this …
You said it yourself …

It worked because Kaname knew Zero well enough to be able to predict how he would react when the situation finally arrived.

I don't think Zero's hate for Kaname and his lust to kill him has to do with Yuuki or he would have tried to kill him earlier since Yuuki has expressed her love for Kaname since the beginning. I also don't think it was because he turned her back into a pureblood either because she is one originally and already told her that she “did nothing wrong.”

It functions subconsciously. Before Yuuki’s transformation IMO Zero also had pin his faith on the fact that Yuuki was human hence and her love for Kaname couldn’t ever bloom. He said many times that he would never allow Yuuki to become a vampire and he pointed a gun to Kaname cuz he thought that he turned her. When he discovered what Yuuki really was he realized that nothing could hold her back … the huge obstacle that was standing between Kaname and Yuuki and synchronously his safety net, wasn’t there anymore …

I do agree that what Kaname is doing probably has a good reason backing it up but I still don't think killing is ever the best way to handle anything.

As sweetsolace pointed out already Zero kills too and not only level-es … Yuuki also helped to Rido’s killing and she was willing to take more lives with her Artemis, even “innocents” ones if that could prevent other sacrifices (reaper act) … Takuma killed his own grandfather etc …
So your wording “I still don't think killing is ever the best way to handle anything” should apply for everyone and not only for Kaname.

If this is your general stance, I respect it and I agree, but I think we can’t judge or view VK with our human-ish measures cuz we are talking for a whole different world where violence and killings are inevitable. Ergo IMO the criterion should be IF the killings were justified or not.

The “rules” have always an issue with me because we never get to hear the specifics. Apparently purebloods like Sara can change humans if they are willing, the one rule that stopped Zero from killing Sara. I don't know about you guys but I find too many loopholes in that rule

I agree … I found that rule stupid considering that a PB can impose his will hence the consent goes out of the window lol. However Sara’s actions didn’t pass notless, neither from the hunters nor from Kaname as well. Such behaviours/beliefs are rooted deep in the vampires’ society and this is something that Kaname was/is trying to change cuz is repulsive for him too. If you think about it is one of the reasons of why the Kurans had faced so many threats, cuz they were against that … What Sara did even if she supposedly had the consent of the girls is exactly what triggered the wars between Kaname and the others PBs in ancestral times. Sara represents that ideology as senate did, and that’s why she wants the throne … she wants to have the power to maintain such beliefs and acts.

So, in my opinion Zero has already developed a lot as a character. He knows that not all vampires are bad and so has never wrongly persecuted any of them. It's a real growing process with him and he is still growing so while I think currently his hatred is still there, it has softened. So we'll see by the end of the story.

Yes I agree … its part of his development. Maybe I’m stack but I think the few information we have about Cross’s past, how he saw the vampires back then and how he changed I think is a mirror for Zero’s development too. So I see this process essential for the person that Zero will be in the future.
My only reservation is IF now he is in that state or if it takes something more to reach that point.

Of course Kaname didn't cause Zero's guilt, its always been there. My argument is that Kaname knew about it and then used it to his advantage. The fact that Zero technically went along with his plan because he wanted to protect Yuuki doesn't show that Kaname isn't manipulating him but just how skilled Kaname is at it. Even though I do not like Kaname's actions they are, I agree, brilliant. To manipulate someone effectively you have to know the person, their weaknesses, their psyche, to get them to cooperate with your plans. You both mentioned before that Kaname has always made it clear to Zero that he is Yuuki's shield. Why? Because he is under her obligation the second he started taking her blood. Kaname pushed Zero's buttons about this because he knew it would stir up his guilt. He “forgave what was unforgivable” which always gave me the impression that he allowed for it to happen knowing what it would do to Zero. And when Kaname gave Zero his blood, he reminded him not to “forget” it. Kaname is cunning, resourceful, and he cares a great deal about Yuuki. He told Zero that he is the only one that can kill Rido. I don't think Kaname is the type of guy to gamble with something as dire as Yuuki's safety. His plan worked because he could successfully move the pieces where he wanted them to be. Just to conclude, I don't really see how this makes Kaname a “bad” character. It just shows what he is willing to do, how tainted he will become, to be with the woman he loves. Because by no means do I think that he enjoyed what he did, it was just the only thing he could do with the power he had.

“so can you consider that when Zero told Yuki the only one for her was Kaname he was also manipulating her? Actually yes, i think its a form of psychological manipulation, he was conditioning her mind by putting words on her mouth, saying she only needs Kaname ever since he saw the "truth" in her blood. Maybe it was even Zero who made Yuki fall in love more with Kaname”

Yeah that is a somewhat milder form of psychological manipulation. But you have to admit that at that time, Zero and Yuuki's relationship was a little unhealthy since they were depending too much on the other. Besides Zero knew Kaname had the answers to Yuuki's questions so it would be better for her to go to him instead of finding an outlet to her pain in Zero. Pretty much I agree with Sari.

I've already stated my beliefs on killing as a form of punishment. I don't agree with it even when the hunters do it but because there is a consensus among the hunters that it would be the right thing to do, then yeah, who am I to judge. Like how Nina said, it's their world. The human auction was interrupted when that girl said the “hunters” were coming so many of them were present and Zere didn't face any repercussions when he killed the leader so I'm assuming it was okay because he must've been on the list. But Kaname's actions however, have labeled him temporarily dangerous because it is Kaname alone who is making the judgments and carrying out “punishment” or whatever he is doing. I'm still giving Kaname the benefit of the doubt since his actions always have a reason behind them.

Yeah ok I concede. Zero probably does subconsciously hate Kaname for being the guy that Yuuki chose. I just don't think that is the reason why he wants to kill him, but for the others reasons which I already pointed out.

I agree, Kaname doesn't like the way purebloods are worshiped as sacred existences so he wants to change it. But again, killing isn't the best answer. Still want to see his reason because it must be good.

Lol yes Zero is in the middle of developing as a character. I want to see him calm, stable, level-headed, and all that stuff by the end of the story. Then I'll be a happy camper =)

Snow wrote: My argument is that Kaname knew about it and then used it to his advantage.

Advantage for all of them … If there wasn’t Kaname Zero would be a level-e (he was too close to that just before Kaname give his blood) viz he would be dead!

The fact that Zero technically went along with his plan because he wanted to protect Yuuki doesn't show that Kaname isn't manipulating him but just how skilled Kaname is at it
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To manipulate someone effectively you have to know the person, their weaknesses, their psyche, to get them to cooperate with your plans.

1. I don’t know if Zeki are realizing what it means for Zero their interpretation that Kaname manipulated him blah blah … you’re nullify Zero’s contribution and diminish the power of his personality cuz ultimately you’re saying that he was just a puppet into Kaname’s hands, ergo practically Yuuki’s rescue belongs to Kaname.
In my eyes it was Zero’s free choice to play along with Kaname’s wishes and that’s why he takes also the credit for the successful outcome. He risen above of his personal grudges and anger and did the right thing in the end. After all it has been proven that is very difficult to manipulate/control Zero … Shizuka who was his master faced his resistance/willpower and also Kaname had pointed that out.

2. He wanted to protect Yuuki yes, but he had and personal reasons to do it. Ichirou revealed to him that Rido was the culprit for their tragedy … Rido was more guilty even from Shizuka who was Rido’s victim as well. So he wanted to kill Rido in order to avenge for his family's murder.

3. Yes to manipulate someone effectively you should know his weaknesses and how its mind works. But you dismiss the other parameter which determines the manipulation … the manipulator doesn’t reveal his intentions or the gain he would have from the manipulation. He’s leading the object of his manipulation by using deception (insidious), mainly to do something that without the manipulation wouldn’t do.

I think it’s clear that the manipulation term doesn’t fit in Kaname’s case. In the way you put it, then Cross did the same thing to Yuuki recently … he manipulated her to take the leadership of the vampires which I don’t view it that way.

You both mentioned before that Kaname has always made it clear to Zero that he is Yuuki's shield. Why? Because he is under her obligation the second he started taking her blood. Kaname pushed Zero's buttons about this because he knew it would stir up his guilt.

He pointed out the obvious. If Kaname didn’t say to him that he has an obligation to Yuuki, Zero wouldn’t want to protect Yuuki? Zero had these thoughts on his own hence Kaname’s words didn’t put an extra burden on his shoulders. Again you’re diminishing Zero. Furthermore Kaname wanted to alarm Zero cuz the danger was close. He was sure that at least at that point Zero wouldn’t betray Yuuki cuz he loved her, and Kaname also knew this. He didn’t bank on his guilt but on his love for her.

He “forgave what was unforgivable” which always gave me the impression that he allowed for it to happen knowing what it would do to Zero.

He allowed it to continue cuz he didn’t have any other choice and because he didn’t want to lose her as he told to Yagari.
He didn’t want to happen cuz if you remember, exactly the time that Zero bit Yuuki for the first time he was at Cross’s office discussing Zero’s condition. He had noticed some signs on Zero and he was worry of how much longer Zero could hold on >>>
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2062-10/vampire-knight/chapter-3.html

“Chairman, how long do you plan on allowing Zero to stay in the DC?”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2062-11/vampire-knight/chapter-3.html

“It won’t be long now before he goes through the change…”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2062-12/vampire-knight/chapter-3.html

“Chairman I have endured this situation thus far only because of my deep respect for you … but now for the sake of the normal students Zero must be controlled…”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2062-19/vampire-knight/chapter-3.html

And he was so right about it, cuz at the same time Zero snapped >>>
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2062-24/vampire-knight/chapter-3.html

Note Kaname’s glare to Zero …
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2064-10/vampire-knight/chapter-4.html

Another evidence that Kaname didn’t want Zero to bite Yuuki is that he knew that by biting her the spell which protecting her would break … ofc Yuuki’s ability to break spells played a role as well …

“Along with your taking of her blood Yuuki awakened”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2165-23/vampire-knight/chapter-39.html


So I think is obvious that Kaname didn’t like that Zero bit Yuuki nor that he allowed to happen in order to use Zero’s guilt later. Your impression is wrong.

And when Kaname gave Zero his blood, he reminded him not to “forget” it

And Zero told him …
“Shut up I’m the one that knows it the most … It’s what I decided myself”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2157-21/vampire-knight/chapter-31.html

Snow wrote:

sweetsolace wrote: so can you consider that when Zero told Yuki the only one for her was Kaname he was also manipulating her? Actually yes, i think its a form of psychological manipulation, he was conditioning her mind by putting words on her mouth, saying she only needs Kaname ever since he saw the "truth" in her blood. Maybe it was even Zero who made Yuki fall in love more with Kaname

Yeah that is a somewhat milder form of psychological manipulation. But you have to admit that at that time, Zero and Yuuki's relationship was a little unhealthy since they were depending too much on the other. Besides Zero knew Kaname had the answers to Yuuki's questions so it would be better for her to go to him instead of finding an outlet to her pain in Zero. Pretty much I agree with Sari.

I agree with the bolded part. The problem that Yuuki was facing it was her lost memory which at that time had start to create bloody delusions and nightmares to her due to the fact that her spell started to break. Zero and Yuuki thought that Kaname had something to do with her erased memory and he confronted/questioned Kaname for that …
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2156-32/vampire-knight/chapter-30.html
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2156-33/vampire-knight/chapter-30.html

And Kaname answered to him that he can’t answer to Yuuki’s questions about her memory because it’s for her own good.
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2157-24/vampire-knight/chapter-31.html

So Zero knew that what Yuuki needed, viz the answers about her past were held from Kaname. Zero knew that he couldn’t help her with that … the only one who could take away Yuuki’s fears, insecurities and despair which were created from the broken spell, was Kaname and that’s why he told her that he needed Kaname and not him.

Ergo I don’t believe that he manipulated her, nor that he pushed her to Kaname cuz he compared himself to him.

I've already stated my beliefs on killing as a form of punishment.

It’s not a form of punishment …
- Shizuka told Kaname that she was planning to take his life and if he doesn't kill her eventually it would be Yuuki who’ll lose her life.
- Rido as well … it was proved that he would return over and over again to kill.
- Asato who also expressed senate’s intentions even at his last minute of his life said that he was right of what he was doing and he didn’t regret it >>> meaning that if he’ll go on living he would do exactly the same thing.

That’s why I said previously that there wasn’t any other choice than the extermination … it was a matter of “my life over yours” and not a punishment.

I don't agree with it even when the hunters do it but because there is a consensus among the hunters that it would be the right thing to do,
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But Kaname's actions however, have labeled him temporarily dangerous because it is Kaname alone who is making the judgments and carrying out “punishment” or whatever he is doing.

The list exists in order not to decide any hunter on his own who should be killed.
But the names on the list are decided from their leadership because they have the authority.

That’s exactly what Kaname does … he is the leader and the responsible for the vampire society. So he has the authority to judge who should be executed as I pointed out previously with the scan.
He is labelled as temporarily dangerous cuz the hunters don’t know why he is doing what he is doing and that’s why he isn’t into their list.

Note also that the list it’s not always reliable … the alterd list led to Zero’s tragedy and to his family’s murder.
So until now Kaname’s judgement has proven more righteous than the hunters list.

Yeah ok I concede. Zero probably does subconsciously hate Kaname for being the guy that Yuuki chose. I just don't think that is the reason why he wants to kill him, but for the others reasons which I already pointed out.

What reasons? Which reason is enough to want him to kill Kaname?
You don’t accept that is right to be executed anyone as you said, so how Zero is justified to want to kill Kaname? Even IF he manipulated him to kill Rido (which is not the case) is that enough reason to kill him???? Or your standards do not apply to Zero?

The truth is that Zero has no reason to want to kill Kaname … to dislike him yes, even to hate him yes but to kill him NO!
His reason to want to kill him is originated from his generalization about his hate for the PBs something which makes him prejudicial (<<< preconceived judgment) along with his jealousy and his sore man pride, subconsciously …

Snow wrote:Of course Kaname didn't cause Zero's guilt, its always been there. My argument is that Kaname knew about it and then used it to his advantage. The fact that Zero technically went along with his plan because he wanted to protect Yuuki doesn't show that Kaname isn't manipulating him but just how skilled Kaname is at it.

yes but it goes back to the question, what did he do when he found out about it? Nothing. So how can you say he manipulated Zero? We need more evidences other than Kaname's words. For example, a manipulation becomes a manipulation when the character is actually MANIPULATED to do something that he doesn't want to do . Then it becomes a bad thing.
The question is, does Zero want to protect Yuki? Yes.
Would he go and protect Yuki even if Kaname didnt say so? Yes.
Would Zero stop protecting Yuki if Kaname didn't exist? No I don't think he would. It's Zero's character to give himself for others.
but how did this topic went from Zero's hatred to Kaname's manipulation? I don't know.

To manipulate someone effectively you have to know the person, their weaknesses, their psyche, to get them to cooperate with your plans.

not necessarily. Kaname doesn't even have to do anything to let Zero "cooperate", he was already doing his plans.

You both mentioned before that Kaname has always made it clear to Zero that he is Yuuki's shield. Why? Because he is under her obligation the second he started taking her blood.

he was speaking in a non personal way which in reality indeed Zero IS Yuki's shield. again its a fact that will happen even if he didnt say it, Zero will always come to Yuki's rescue. the obligation doesn't just come from Kaname, it comes from zero himself, he keeps saying the life he's living was now for her since she saved him. there was no need for obligation when Zero already feels indebted to her

Kaname pushed Zero's buttons about this because he knew it would stir up his guilt.

I doubt he intended to "stir his guilt". If so, what's the purpose for that "stirring of guilt" if he already knew Zero will do exactly as he said without even any action on his part? again the point we keep going back again and again and again is, if Kaname is not there, would Zero still protect yuki? Yes he WOULD.

He “forgave what was unforgivable” which always gave me the impression that he allowed for it to happen knowing what it would do to Zero. And when Kaname gave Zero his blood, he reminded him not to “forget” it.

Kaname was referring to the fact that Zero was staying at the day class and his potential danger while he was there. That was the unforgivable but he forgave that. What was also unforgivable is Zero taking Yuki's blood and he allowed it. Kaname rationalized that "if he had at least taken something from her he would at least be that much of use". In short he let the incident go, despite the fact he knew Yuki was the one getting bitten and endangering the very life he protected for years, he allowed it. Kaname had been very patient with Zero, but Zero was acting very boorish about everything. Zero came off as rude and confrontational in the first place without any regard for anyone, Kaname reminded him because of this behavior, NOT to forget who it was who gave him that blood.
And now I think about it... what "guilt" do you see in Zero? was there any at all? I know that he is guilty for biting Yuki and he tries to atone for this by offering his life for her, but I don't think Kaname offering his blood to him had anything to do with it.

Yeah that is a somewhat milder form of psychological manipulation. But you have to admit that at that time, Zero and Yuuki's relationship was a little unhealthy since they were depending too much on the other.

I don't agree they depend on each other too much, at least that stopped when Zero stopped taking her blood and then it was mostly Yuki who was doing the taking.

I've already stated my beliefs on killing as a form of punishment. I don't agree with it even when the hunters do it but because there is a consensus among the hunters that it would be the right thing to do, then yeah, who am I to judge.

Sorry but I don't recall you saying something about killing as a form of punishment. we're talking about killing people as Wrong or Right, and you think Kaname is wrong because he is killing , when in fact, your Zero is also as guilty as committing this in a more obvious state. Zero said it himself that he is finding a legal excuse to kill someone, which is worse as it highlights his intentions in its raw form, and may in fact be using his job to satisfy this nature, which makes Kaname's actions seem like candy compared to his. At least Kaname's methods has a reason and its not just about satisfying his nature when he does the killing
about hunters decreeing it is right to kill, no i dont think they have clear standards, just a parameter not to go overboard. thats why kaito and kaien were watching over Zero as he predisposes himself to this risk chapters 50-58.

The human auction was interrupted when that girl said the “hunters” were coming so many of them were present and Zere didn't face any repercussions when he killed the leader so I'm assuming it was okay because he must've been on the list.

that doesn't take out the fact that he killed him without questioning. IMO its like killing him out of his bloodlust peaking which is expressing his true nature.

Now I know I should've quoted Kaname directly.

“The chess piece I so carefully raised for 4 years will soon become the “king” who will eat everything.”
http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-39-page-21.html

I forgot that he said it so clearly but yeah, Kaname admits to Zero that everything he has done was calculated all for the sake of him eventually killing Rido. I would believe that it was completely Zero's choice IF Kaname had told him from the beginning, when he met Zero, because that was when he started planning. But because Kaname told him after the fact, after he had moved all the pieces to their places, Zero didn't have many options left if Kaname again knows him well enough to predict what he will do. For me though, I don't think I am diminishing Zero at all because he, despite knowing exactly what Kaname did, chose to do the right thing. Kaname could have chosen to say nothing at all and just let Zero go according to his plan. Kaname must have known that if he told him he would be angry but he did it anyway knowing that Zero would live up to his expectations of being able to love Yuuki despite her being a pureblood.

Ok what sweetsolace said about that Zero/Yuuki scene didn't seem like manipulation to me too. I was trying to read that as objectively as possible. Guess I was being a little too unbiased T.T

About the hunter lists, it was tampered before by a pureblood, so basically Rido was calling the shots. (I'm assuming the HA has learned its mistake and is taking greater pains to make sure its valid.) Now it's Kaname so who's to say that what he is doing is right. The meeting was meant to let the vampires and hunters cooperate together but right now Kaname is carrying out judgment alone. (Sorry again, worded my previous sentence badly. I don't think killing should be carried out as a form of justice.) I still want to believe that he has a good reason but so far we haven't been given anything on it so I can't help it, I'm being skeptical of him. He's killed Aidou-dono, Hanadagi, and Hio's ancestor and so far there is no reason given for it, you can guess that it is a good reason, but you don't know for sure.

About Zero's actions, yeah they are very swift but there are reasons behind them and the other hunters can see that so they are not penalizing him for it. Since Kaito and Kaien are watching him they would know if Zero is killing only out of hate. If he does that then there is something seriously wrong with him. (He already said that he isn't killing to suit his urges or something to that effect.) But sweetsolace, do you think Zero's killing is a crime of passion (temporary insanity because of his bloodlust) or premeditative? Personally I don't think it is either because he seems to just be following the rules, but this issue seems to be interpreted differently by everyone. Though if you really think Zero is killing without reason then you must judge Kaname using that same standard.
In the end I judge Zero based on his actions alone. He says he wants to kill Kaname but so far he hasn't made an honest effort to do so. Now I feel like he has the perfect chance, the “legal excuse” he was supposedly looking for, but still nothing. I'm looking forward to his future actions since it will cement his stance on vampires.

Snow, I completely agree with your post there

Snow wrote: In the end I judge Zero based on his actions alone. He says he wants to kill Kaname but so far he hasn't made an honest effort to do so. Now I feel like he has the perfect chance, the “legal excuse” he was supposedly looking for, but still nothing. I'm looking forward to his future actions since it will cement his stance on vampires.

From what I've seen, my impression of Zero is that he seems to make a lot of 'rash' decisions/comments based on his temperament at the time, without much thought. Although in the end (perhaps after he's had time to cool off and get his emotions in check) he has always done his duty and abided by the rules/laws of the association, putting it before his own revenge. I think both Kaien and Yuuki have both said on separate occasions in previous chapters that Zero is dedicated to his job in that way (Kaien whilst discussing the vampire guest list and Yuuki to Kaname before the vampire banquet).

Like here, Zero puts his duty first:



So now I'm curious what Zero's stance really is when it comes to the vampires? We know that of course he has reason to hate purebloods after Shizuka destroyed his family, but does his hatred extend to all vampires?

He could be holding back from killing all pureblood vampires just because he would be breaching the law by doing so, or perhaps his stance has indeed changed slightly? In chapter 73 when he spoke to Maria in the dayclass courtyard, he was cautious like how he is around all vampires, but then he agreed to lead her back to the night class dorms and even helped her when she was ill from being out in the daylight, scolding her for not taking better care of herself as a vampire during the day. So I don't think he harbours hatred for all vampires, at least. Or perhaps it was because he knew that she was someone Ichiru was accquainted with ? Anyway (sorry that was a bit off topic).

Even if Zero doesn't hold a grudge against all vampires, it's abundantly clear that he still hates Kaname more than anyone, refering to him as 'the most evil of all vampires' (which I don't entirely understand since you'd think he'd feel that way about Shizuka and not him; but maybe since she's dead he needs someone else to target his hate at? ).

So I wonder why he hasn't chased after Kaname yet, now he technically has a legal excuse? Surely some of the hunters must be looking into Kaname's whereabouts? Is having second thoughts or is Zero just stuck overlooking the new Night Class...?

Snow wrote:
“The chess piece I so carefully raised for 4 years will soon become the “king” who will eat everything.”
http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-39-page-21.html

I forgot that he said it so clearly but yeah, Kaname admits to Zero that everything he has done was calculated all for the sake of him eventually killing Rido. I would believe that it was completely Zero's choice IF Kaname had told him from the beginning, when he met Zero, because that was when he started planning. But because Kaname told him after the fact, after he had moved all the pieces to their places, Zero didn't have many options left if Kaname again knows him well enough to predict what he will do. For me though, I don't think I am diminishing Zero at all because he, despite knowing exactly what Kaname did, chose to do the right thing. Kaname could have chosen to say nothing at all and just let Zero go according to his plan. Kaname must have known that if he told him he would be angry but he did it anyway knowing that Zero would live up to his expectations of being able to love Yuuki despite her being a pureblood.

It seems you forgot a lot…

Anyway … you must be joking right? You can’t mean that Kaname should have sat down and talk with a 13 years old child who was full of hate, irrational thoughts and acts, all his plans? !!!!!!!!!!!!
Have you understood the scale of danger that was lurking hence what it was stake???? Have you understood that Yuuki’s existence should be a secret to that extent that her mother sacrificed her life for that purpose???? Kaname should jeopardize all of that, informing a child????
Cross knew a lot of things but he also kept his silence! Is he a manipulator too?
Kaname and Cross also knew that Zero was transforming into a vampire but they didn’t reveal it. Zero also knew his situation but he didn’t say anything to Yuuki and we all saw in which way Yuuki found out the truth … with the worst way as a matter of fact! He was using Yuuki’s kindness? Why he didn’t reveal the truth about himself? He had 4 years to do so!

Of course Kaname had consider Zero as an essential “piece” into his plans and when the right time came he revealed it to Zero. Did Zero have a choice? Yes!
Because Kaname revealed the truth before Zero takes action!

You said it …

despite knowing exactly what Kaname did, chose to do the right thing

You contradict yourself …

Bottom line … did Zero have damaged from Kaname’s plan? No … he had a loving home when practically was a homeless orphan. Does he live right now cuz of Kaname? Yes … Did he have a choice? Yes …
All I can see is that it was a win-win situation for every part involved.

About the hunter lists, it was tampered before by a pureblood, so basically Rido was calling the shots. (I'm assuming the HA has learned its mistake and is taking greater pains to make sure its valid.)

Again seems like you “forgot” … the tampered list it was the result of cooperation between the senate and the hunters’ president … Rido was the mind and the senate of the nobles was cooperating with the corrupted previous president of the hunters! Rido didn’t change the list using his supernatural powers … It was all an evil scheme in which was involved the leader of the HA cuz in exchange he took blood from PBs via the corrupted senate.
That’s why when Rido arrived at the academy Yagari received orders from the president of the HA to restrain Zero and he did it … another wrong decision from a hunter … They were afraid that Zero could spoil their plans … they knew that Kaname raised the “fragment” of the Kiryuu twins…
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2164-29/vampire-knight/chapter-38.html
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2164-30/vampire-knight/chapter-38.html

And if you look the situation more deep you’ll see that probably the fact that Kaname took Zero and “raised” him saved Zero cuz as you can see from the conversation between Ichiou and the president of the HA they wanted to use Zero as they did with his brother Ichirou …

So who’s to say that the hunters are always right??? We can judge only from the outcome and not blindly cuz they are the hunters hence they are always right and Kaname is wrong … And as I said previously judging from what we know thus far Kaname’s judgment was more righteous than the hunters …

If you haven’t understood Kaname and the hunters are on the same side …

Now it's Kaname so who's to say that what he is doing is right. The meeting was meant to let the vampires and hunters cooperate together but right now Kaname is carrying out judgment alone

And who’s to say that the leader of the hunters is judging right who’s name gonna be in the list???

What it seems that you don’t understand or you don’t want, is that Kaname as LEADER has the same authority to judge as it has the LEADER of the HA! Hunters are not the only rulers …

The authority which Kaname has is also acknowledged from the hunters.
When Cross asked Zero what happened with Touma …
Zero: They punished the one to raise his fists …
Cross: Then that was their responsibility I see…
http://www.mangareader.net/104-57815-16/vampire-knight/chapter-65.html

Also the hunters are suspecting Kaname of why he doesn’t deal with Sara so they were expecting Kaname to take measures as the LEADER of the vampires…

Look what Cross also said about the previous problems with the PBs, Shizuka and Rido …
“Kaname kun has always had a hand with problems involving PBs … with Shizuka and Rido …”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-57815-15/vampire-knight/chapter-65.html

So really I can’t understand from were it’s coming from your judgmental stance towards Kaname or can I????

I still want to believe that he has a good reason but so far we haven't been given anything on it so I can't help it, I'm being skeptical of him. He's killed Aidou-dono, Hanadagi, and Hio's ancestor and so far there is no reason given for it, you can guess that it is a good reason, but you don't know for sure.

Hm … even if you don’t know the reason seems like you already condemn him … seems like preconceived judgment …
If you wanna judge him you should base your judgment on his previous decisions and actions … or else you should wait to reveal his current reasoning for what his doing …

Though if you really think Zero is killing without reason then you must judge Kaname using that same standard

I suggest to you the same …

In the end I judge Zero based on his actions alone. He says he wants to kill Kaname but so far he hasn't made an honest effort to do so. Now I feel like he has the perfect chance, the “legal excuse” he was supposedly looking for, but still nothing.

Sigh … you’re basing your feeling on what??? What “legal excuse” has Zero to kill Kaname???!!!!
He isn’t even on the hunters list! Has he received any order to hunt him down? Has any other hunter such order? NO!
And he isn’t on the list because he has the authority to judge … the hunters probably waiting to see his reasons …
You see … that’s why I said you already have convicted him without knowing the reasons if you believe that Zero should have hunted him down already…
I guess I shouldn’t be surprised after all …

Well, one thing I hate about Zero is he really became immature and overly emotional after learning that Yuki was a vampire. But, what can he do? He's just 17 years old HUMAN for god's sake! You expect a 17-year old HUMAN to comprehend everything, take in every pain and work everything out on his own? *common sense emerging*. Boys, in reality, mature a lot later than girls do. He isn't as old as Kaname to be mature like how Kaname already is (Kaname's old (@@P). Plus he wasn't a vampire before, he was just a vulnerable young boy-turned-vampire.

What's indisputable right now is that his character development has begun (almost at the same time as Yuki's) and IS progressing. He's beginning to mature. Maybe it's a big part of Matsuri-san's plot development. Every character in every plot of every story needs development, that's how fictional stories are bound to be. What's a plot with everything polished at the very start of the story?

It's been years since I've read some chapters so yeah I tend to forget some stuff. That's why I'm rereading a lot of this to develop a fair opinion.

I only brought up that possible scenario to show that if it had happened, Zero would truly be making his own choice. I didn't say that it would be the best thing for him at the time, nor is it the best to tell him right before. Hino arranged everything in that way for story purposes and character development only.
Seriously? A character maneuvering everything behind the scenes, all for a plan that heavily involves another person who has no knowledge of it until the last minute? Again, I say that the pieces were already in place when it was time for Zero to take action. His options were significantly narrowed by then; it was either protect Yuuki or don't protect Yuuki. He was already too in love with her to turn away so technically he had no “choice.” He loves her even though he doesn't want to.
Kaname “helping” Zero is contradictory. The HA president desired to use Zero after he took in Yuuki's pure vampire blood. Kaname gave Zero his blood to delay him from falling to Level E (Ichiru was the only who ultimately saved him) only to have him kill Rido. After that was done, Kaname didn't seem to mind killing Zero himself when he saw him pointing his gun at Yuuki. And after finding out everything, Zero was “tired of it all” and didn't mind if Yuuki ended his life then. I don't see how Zero benefited from this if after he didn't care whether he lived or not.
We're probably going to keep disagreeing so want to just end it here?

You're right about the tampered list. It was because the HA president was cooperating with the Senate and Rido. They were all corrupt. However things have now changed. The HA has been restructured so now Kaien and Yagari are the president/co-president so unless you think they are also corrupt, then I think the list is valid. Kaien said that unless there is a legitimate reason, the hunters will pose no threat to the vampires. Kaname said he would take responsibility for his own race if they present a threat to humans. So far, we have not seen why Aidou-dono, Hanadagi, and Hio's ancestor broke this rule but we know Sara is repeatedly breaking it. The hunters know she is doing wrong but can't do anything because they are bound by that infamous rule. So if it's Kaname's job to take responsibility then why doesn't he? He is planning something and because he didn't consult the hunters, who he is supposed to have a partnership with, he has been branded as temporarily dangerous. Do you really think it's wrong for the hunters to suspect him?

Snow wrote: It's been years since I've read some chapters so yeah I tend to forget some stuff. That's why I'm rereading a lot of this to develop a fair opinion.

It’s okay … that’s why we are here to discuss. I have no problem with bordies who have forgotten something but they are willing to discuss politely as you do. The same goes for me ofc … I have gain a better uptake of the story through the discussions … I share, that’s why also I provide the scans and I gather. XD

I only brought up that possible scenario to show that if it had happened, Zero would truly be making his own choice. I didn't say that it would be the best thing for him at the time, nor is it the best to tell him right before. Hino arranged everything in that way for story purposes and character development only.
Seriously? A character maneuvering everything behind the scenes, all for a plan that heavily involves another person who has no knowledge of it until the last minute? Again, I say that the pieces were already in place when it was time for Zero to take action. His options were significantly narrowed by then; it was either protect Yuuki or don't protect Yuuki. He was already too in love with her to turn away so technically he had no “choice.” He loves her even though he doesn't want to.

The possibility you brought as you also said it wouldn’t be the best choice either for Zero, nor for Yuuki as well, so we could say that it would be illogical hence is out of question and consideration.
However even if Kaname had told his plan to Zero months before viz prior he gathers all the pieces in the academy and not the last minute as you said would have changed anything? I think not, cuz Zero’s feelings for Yuuki was already there. So he had 2 choices … to inform Zero when he was a child viz before he evolves any kind of feelings for Yuuki or as he did.
Furthermore even if Kaname informed Zero earlier would have had more choices than 2? Again I don’t think so … he either would have decided to kill Rido or not. So the choices are either way narrow.
Also you have to take into consideration that Kaname knew that Rido probably would pose a threat in the future but he also hoped for the opposite, meaning that in the process something could change.

That’s why for me the key point isn’t the timing but the fact that Zero had into his hands all the necessary information that he needed before takes action. And we saw that he was thinking about it.
Kaname didn’t withhold nothing from Zero as for example that he was taking Yuuki away from the academy etc etc so he didn’t deceived him.
But there is another crucial point … Zero aside from Yuuki he had his own reasons to proceed … Rido was his enemy too cuz he was behind his personal tragedy. Ergo even if Yuuki’s safety wasn’t involved he possibly would do again the same thing as he was craving so many years to kill Shizuka for the same reason. Do you think that he would let Rido get away; since except from his parents he also killed his brother too?

Kaname “helping” Zero is contradictory. The HA president desired to use Zero after he took in Yuuki's pure vampire blood. Kaname gave Zero his blood to delay him from falling to Level E (Ichiru was the only who ultimately saved him) only to have him kill Rido.

1. Yes but I wasn’t talking about that period only … Zero was an orphan from a hunters’ family. His role either way would be to be a hunter in the future. His parents also had said that they should inform the HA for Ichirou’s condition, that he wasn’t capable to be a hunter. Ergo the HA had a word and in a way they controlled the hunters and their children from their childhood.
So my point was that if Cross with Kaname’s consent didn’t take Zero under his care then Zero most likely would end up under the hunters’ association “care” viz into the corrupted president’s hands, cuz they were “responsible” for him. We can imagine how the previous president would have used Zero … a child full of hate and irrational thoughts. He could have raised a monster … a blind powerful tool, cuz even Yagari had no idea what’s was going on. That’s why I said that Kaname’s plan saved/shielded Zero.

2. About the blood. I think you’re wrong … IF Ichirou saved him he did cuz Zero took through him, Shizuka’s blood, exactly what Kaname did prior … Zero didn’t took only Kaname’s blood but also Shizuka’s through Kaname. If you remember Kaname told him that he left behind Shizuka’s blood for Zero to drink it. But he didn’t get it cuz Yuuki delayed him and Ichirou devour the left-overs from Shizuka. We also don’t know if he would take the initiative to drink from Shizuka but anyway… Ergo Kaname found another way to provide Zero what he needed through his blood this time.
Note also that Zero was at a very low point, almost a level-e, just before he drinks from Kaname. So he might not be able to make it, until he devoured Ichirou who by the way wanted to be eaten from Zero in order to take the part of the strength that would be initially his if Ichirou never had born.

Bottom line is that it wasn’t only Ichirou who saved him but also Kaname as well and in fact probably his contribution was more significant cuz it came earlier, the moment that Zero needed it the most.

And after finding out everything, Zero was “tired of it all” and didn't mind if Yuuki ended his life then. I don't see how Zero benefited from this if after he didn't care whether he lived or not.

After found out what?

1. He didn’t found out after he killed Rido but prior the whole Kaname’s plan.

2. He pointed his gun to Yuuki BEFORE he found out Kaname’s plan cuz he pointed his gun TWICE. Zero pointed his gun to Yuuki first time when she went to his room to talk to him after he found out that she was a PB and prior he finds Kaname’s intentions. Therefore the ONLY reason he had to do that was because she was a PB. And that proves that he did it again in the end for the exact same reason … cuz she was a PB.
Ergo your impression that he pointed his gun cuz he was fed up from Kaname, doesn’t stand cuz contradicts the row of the events.

After that was done, Kaname didn't seem to mind killing Zero himself when he saw him pointing his gun at Yuuki.

Would Kaname do that if Zero didn’t point his gun to Yuuki? Do you believe that was just an excuse from Kaname to kill Zero? I think not … Zero’s action was the one which triggered Kaname’s action and not the other way around … Ergo he had no initial intention to kill Zero.

I don't see how Zero benefited from this if after he didn't care whether he lived or not

Sorry but I can’t follow this … you were criticized Kaname’s plan/intentions not Zero’s wishes lol. The point is that by Kaname’s plan Zero ultimately had saved his life so it was beneficial for him too … If Zero doesn’t value his life Kaname has nothing to do with it. Haha come on you can’t be saying that Kaname should be accused for saving him! I didn’t say that Zero asked for it, just that in the end he was saved viz he didn’t count Zero in his plan and damaging him in the end.

However things have now changed. The HA has been restructured so now Kaien and Yagari are the president/co-president so unless you think they are also corrupt, then I think the list is valid.

I think you’ve missed my point though … I didn’t say that Cross is corrupted or the list now has no value.
My point is that for the list someone decides and judge cuz has the authority to do it <<< this also applies for Kaname … he is the one who has the authority to judge from the vampires’ side.
Therefore both sides will be judged ultimately for their judgements AFTER we know the outcome and their reasons. Let me bring an example to make my point more clear.
The hunters have allowed Sara to entry in the academy despite the fact that they know that she’s planning something and that probably she’s the one who took 2 lives, Ouri’s and the hunter’s. So if we judge them prior we know why they did it or what they want to achieve by that we can say that they are blind and incapable cuz they jeopardize the lives of the DC as well as the NC … But is that the case? I think not cuz we have to see why they did it cuz in the end it might the risk they took would be for a greater good cause.

So that’s why I said that we can’t have preconceived judgment neither for the hunters nor for Kaname cuz in different case we’ll have double standards.

Just because they are the hunters doesn’t mean that they’re never wrong cuz that’s not true as the past proves. And yes it was mostly the corrupted president who was scheming but Yagari and the other hunters have as well mistaken cuz even if they weren’t responsible for the tampered list they still have a responsibility here cuz a) they chose their previous corrupted president and b) they didn’t have seen anything for so long. Yagari imprisoned Zero or the others were ready to hunt down the previous NC if wasn’t there Cross to uncover the president’s nasty role.
So their judgement is questionable … they might be mistaken in the future too. I’m not saying that they will but is possible … they’re not unfailing simply cuz they are the hunters.

Kaname said he would take responsibility for his own race if they present a threat to humans. So far, we have not seen why Aidou-dono, Hanadagi, and Hio's ancestor broke this rule but we know Sara is repeatedly breaking it. The hunters know she is doing wrong but can't do anything because they are bound by that infamous rule. So if it's Kaname's job to take responsibility then why doesn't he?

Probably that’s what he is doing … takes the responsibility. If the hunters can’t deal with Sara for whom have so many clues for her crimes what makes you think that they could deal with Hanadgi or Hiou?

Furthermore they can’t deal with her but they go a step beyond that … As I said above they allowed her to enter in the academy? Why?

So you see probably both sides the hunters and Kaname have their reasons for letting Sara for now. I have my theory and other bordies as well, why it was necessary for Kaname to let her escape for now but I think we have already gone off topic so lets not open another one. If you’re interesting though for the current plot you can check out these threads >>>
https://vampireknight.all-up.com/t429-kaname-s-kuran-plan-of-action-is-heading-where
https://vampireknight.all-up.com/t717-sara-s-bloodtablets
https://vampireknight.all-up.com/t770-what-does-sara-want

Well there are also more discussions but are here and there so you have to search if you like. XD

He is planning something and because he didn't consult the hunters, who he is supposed to have a partnership with, he has been branded as temporarily dangerous. Do you really think it's wrong for the hunters to suspect him?

I didn’t say they were wrong … on the contrary I said that they didn’t jump to conclusions hence that’s why they didn’t put him on their list.

But lets be fair … the hunters didn’t trust him for the very beginning … from the moment they sign the contract. I suspect that it was Cross the one who gave a push so the agreement to be signed. Also we could say that they were who “broke” /”controvert” the contract first cuz they arrested Hanabusa, Kaname’s right hand without any charge for the guy … It was a clear message to Kaname that they suspected him hence they didn’t trust him.
So you see there is a mutual disbelief … but still I’m not sure if Cross doesn’t know anything … we shall see.

We're probably going to keep disagreeing so want to just end it here?

Let’s do it … Either way we are by far off topic lol.

“The chess piece I so carefully raised for 4 years will soon become the “king” who will eat everything.”
http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-39-page-21.html

I forgot that he said it so clearly but yeah, Kaname admits to Zero that everything he has done was calculated all for the sake of him eventually killing Rido.

But if you think about it, how did Kaname "raise" Zero? Did he grow up for four years eating donuts that Kaname kept feeding him so he'll grow strong? Did he keep screwing his mind by saying that Rido is the bad guy and he must be killed one day? He actually didn't do anything until that point where he reveals his intentions. But Zero decided to kill Rido because Rido killed Ichiru in the first place, not because of what Kaname told him he would do. And Kaname informed Zero about his plans for him BEFORE Ichiru was wounded and went to his cell. So how could he have "planned or raise" Zero to kill Rido?

But because Kaname told him after the fact, after he had moved all the pieces to their places, Zero didn't have many options left if Kaname again knows him well enough to predict what he will do.

Zero has no option because he doesn't have to have one, he's not under control. Kaname merely predicted Zero's actions and it coincides with his plans to kill Rido.

Kaname could have chosen to say nothing at all and just let Zero go according to his plan. Kaname must have known that if he told him he would be angry but he did it anyway knowing that Zero would live up to his expectations of being able to love Yuuki despite her being a pureblood.

this is quite contradicting especially the bolded part, again he chose to HATE her nature as a pureblood, it was not part of anyone's expectations. He couldn't deal with the fact and decided to say those words to her. And about Kaname needing to say that to Zero, I don't know the purpose but I don't think it was to anger him, since there's no reason to, I think it may even be a forewarning or its just typical of purebloods to be downright straightforward.

About the hunter lists, it was tampered before by a pureblood, so basically Rido was calling the shots. (I'm assuming the HA has learned its mistake and is taking greater pains to make sure its valid.)

again. the fact is that Zero killed a vampire WITHOUT questioning. Whether or not the vampire is on the list, that vampire CAN still provide leads to progress in their case about the human auction. Even Yuki realizes this. However, Zero took it the wrong way and intimidated her by saying she should use the bracelet if she has problems with him. IMO, he's not even being professional there, he was quite rude and intimidating when Yuki actually HAS a point. It makes me wonder WHAT made Zero killed that vampire so impulsively, when in chapter 49 he had even taken the time to question a target vampire before killing him. So, then it was either he's trying to act cool in Yuki's presence, wow her with his bloodyrose moves or get her attention or he was just greatly agitated by her presence that he had to kill the vampire.

Now it's Kaname so who's to say that what he is doing is right.
He's killed Aidou-dono, Hanadagi, and Hio's ancestor and so far there is no reason given for it, you can guess that it is a good reason, but you don't know for sure.

Yuki places her trust on him despite everything, Ruka and Kain are with him too. I doubt they'd go along with him if his reasons are not valid. And what else could you derive from Kaname killing purebloods? the options are very very narrowed... so let's see
1. For Fun/For Self Satisfaction -which is wrong, in that it is for selfcentered reasons
2. For Change -which is right, in that it is for society's sake

obviously the choice is quite clear and its number 2. It is more in character for him and it matches what he revealed to Aido-dono before his "death": who said purebloods should be revered? purebloods have long been known as the villains of VK.

I think for you, you have another option
3. Killing is wrong no matter what the purpose, except for killing Level E's because Zero's the one doing it that excuses it

So I ask you. Killing purebloods is wrong? how so? now they are entitled to LIFE? Some ZEKIs frequently enunciate that purebloods shouldn't be respected and kept at such a high pedestal as if their presence were threatening, I remember a ZEKI suggested their powers should be shrunk or micronized so they act more like normal vampires. They disapprove the "dynastty of power" they represent. theoretically this shrinking of powers is not possible, or maybe you can find a way to do that when I can't think of any. If shrinking their powers to normal size is not possible, what other choice? reeducation to moralize them not to abuse their powers is out of the option since they're practically older than everyone alive in general and its pointless to do this when they also have the power to rule. What other option other than to kill them? to imprison them! To treat them like Level E's, but then again, they have the power to rule and they can break out anytime they wish. The council actually tried this method and tried to "confine" the purebloods, possibly the threatening ones, but they were also corrupted by their presence and that didn't work. So WHAT ELSE? Surely there must be a way NOT to kill these creatures with such long life and powers of a god. An alternative, here:

Yuki's pureblood death service- it is voluntary but it still KILLS purebloods who wish to die. So what happens if they DON'T wish to die? hmm.. Maybe Yuki can convince them. again and again. until they want to die.

in conclusion, if the power dominance has to end like how ZEKI fans want it, purebloods have to die even AGAINST their wishes, one way or another.

in conclusion, if anything has to change in vampire society, Kaname has to do these measures because its necessary. I don't see anyone else capable of doing the alternative, seeing Yuki is pathetic as a pureblood and the rest of the purebloods don't care, the other vampires are equally reliant on purebloods and the hunters are reliant on their job descriptions.

I want to see other options where pureblood death is not an option and therefore what Kaname is doing is "wrong", but maybe you have one since you're against killing?

And about Kaname killing Aido-dono... obviously its clear as day he had done that with a reason. You say "you never know what he really plans if its good or not" but in the first place how many options are there if Kaname is to act "morally good"? Remember he had starved the centuries HESITATING TO MAKE THAT DECISION, if he finally decide it ONLY NOW after many centuries HE HAD clearly THOUGHT IT OVER.

So I've yet to see how Kaname's actions are wrong when it is in fact trying to change a deeply ingrained society (theoretically) and I've not yet seen someone who has a better idea than what he proposes. Again maybe you're that one?

About Zero's actions, yeah they are very swift but there are reasons behind them

oh. so he even sounds like KANAME now. BRAVO with the personification now Zero's personal grudge is qualified as a reason sorry but so far I've seen he was only doing his job or getting a legal excuse to kill :/ he's not really moral either.

But sweetsolace, do you think Zero's killing is a crime of passion (temporary insanity because of his bloodlust) or premeditative?

I would say both, since he is both following orders (premeditative) and using it to find a legal excuse to kill.

Though if you really think Zero is killing without reason then you must judge Kaname using that same standard.

I actually suggest you to use this standard for zero. ZEKIs frequently accuse Kaname of killing without purpose but what makes Zero's killing any different, because it was done within law? but he was doing it to sate his hunger which just shows his true nature. xD So yes practicing soem double standards there!

In the end I judge Zero based on his actions alone.

then that doesn't make it fair for Kaname, who you are judging based on his ACTIONS. Of course Kaname's actions doesn't go within the law, and that makes it unethical, immoral and liable to be pounced on by the righteous ones. That conveniently sets him up in the role of a fugitive and conveniently for some fans to accuse him of wrongdoings because he was doing it OUTSIDE the law, unlike Zero who uses LAW as an EXCUSE. It only gets easier for you, only as an example, even to doubt Kaname's intentions, as he never clearly stated it in black or white, so you can dab it as good or wrong, but noo you can't doubt Zero's intentions, because it's already set in black, he is using his job to kill vampires, while kaname uses his position to create change rather than for himself, and that's where they differ.

Kaname may believe he's driving change with these killings, that doesn't make his actions right. Zero thought he was saving people by pre-emptively killing the purebloods, but that doesn't make his actions right. The standard is that having good intentions doesn't make a murder right. The standard is to judge that humans and vampires should only be punished after they have committed a crime.

Zero's killings have followed that, but Kaname's have not as far as we know, he has not justified his killings with crimes to make it reasonable, especially Aido's father's. and yes killing within or outside the law does actually make the difference.

We don't make the distinction between the soldier who despises killing and the soldier who enjoys killing his enemy and say one is right for killing and the other is not. Nope, we only judge if either or both violate the rules in doing so. Anything else is just judging the character of the person and that is personal. So you can say you don't like the killings or that indulging in killing is bad for his emotional state, but you cannot claim they are wrongful killings. I don't think its wrong for Zero to kill vampires on the list, but he's clearly indulging himself and he's using as an outlet which is unhealthy.

As a personal judgement, I don't agree with killing nobles or purebloods just because I don't think purebloods should be revered and do not see Kaname's method as the singular way to resolve it. What is kaname going to do, kill everyone who revers them? He certainly can't kill all the purebloods since he's obviously not going to kill Yuuki and as long as there are purebloods and vampires below them, they will be revered. Certainly that reverence can be reduced, but fear is definitely going in the wrong direction.

Knightmare wrote:Kaname may believe he's driving change with these killings, that doesn't make his actions right.

that doesn't make it wrong either.
right or wrong for me is established by the change it creates for something. No one else is doing anything else, except Kaname, he's the only one moving to try to create change and reap results, so far Yuki is even struggling with herself and the rest of the purebloods and vampires don't care about change.

Zero thought he was saving people by pre-emptively killing the purebloods, but that doesn't make his actions right.

its never revealed he has desire to save people, rather it was himself he was saving from vampires he hated them so much he generalizes all of them being dangerous, he kills them and ends up saving people IMO
though i do see potential for zero to be a willing hero one day, i just don't see that right now when he still holds anger towards vamps

The standard is that having good intentions doesn't make a murder right. The standard is to judge that humans and vampires should only be punished after they have committed a crime.
Zero's killings have followed that, but Kaname's have not as far as we know, he has not justified his killings with crimes to make it reasonable, especially Aido's father's. and yes killing within or outside the law does actually make the difference.

which is why I said its easier and more convenient to judge Kaname's doing "wrong things" as he does it OUTSIDE this "standards" while Zero's using these standards as an excuse to commit his form of murder. which is worst? and which intentions revealed itself to be more purposeful?

We don't make the distinction between the soldier who despises killing and the soldier who enjoys killing his enemy and say one is right for killing and the other is not. Nope, we only judge if either or both violate the rules in doing so.

the rules may be flawed, standards man set may be flawed. at the end of the day its only man's own belief which determines right or wrong, not standards. Standards are only to set order in society
in short rules or standards are just set of guidelines that must be followed in order to live an orderly living, but it does not dictate right or wrong.
if the government who made the law may be corrupted, then the law/standards may be altered. In short if man is alone there's only his beliefs that will dictate right or wrong. Therefore man's belief can stand alone whereas standards can't do without a deliverer

Anything else is just judging the character of the person and that is personal.

which is what's happening when Kaname and Zero are being judged. xD its not the character, but their intentions being judged, so its not quite right to say you're judging them on their actions, that's unfair for Kaname and quite easy for Zero to be labelled as right.

So you can say you don't like the killings or that indulging in killing is bad for his emotional state, but you cannot claim they are wrongful killings. I don't think its wrong for Zero to kill vampires on the list, but he's clearly indulging himself and he's using as an outlet which is unhealthy.

I never said it was wrong, I was saying he's using LAW as an excuse to do his killing and satisfying himself. It's expressing his true desires in a way that would be more acceptable to society/standards, this is defense mechanism called sublimation. in short, its normal behavior, however shows what his intentions really are, and again compared to Kaname who's being unfairly judged for something that was yet to proven even, Zero's intentions already revealed itself.

As a personal judgement, I don't agree with killing nobles or purebloods just because I don't think purebloods should be revered and do not see Kaname's method as the singular way to resolve it.

the fact is yet to be proven, in short its yet to be justified to make it reasonable. His actions now just seem like plain murder, and any child can accuse him of being a bad guy just by simple morals alone, IMO is an unfair judgment especially without considering his intentions.

What is kaname going to do, kill everyone who revers them? He certainly can't kill all the purebloods since he's obviously not going to kill Yuuki and as long as there are purebloods and vampires below them, they will be revered.

obviously, he's not planning to kill all of them as he seems to be aiming only for the head of pureblood families. not the entire flock. if you find a solution other than what he's doing maybe you can lay it out.
again, were talking about a pureblood who's reigned in the past, lived centuries long and saw things, hesitated to do his decision in the past, went to live in the future, saw the same things, and only decided to continue his decision then after much hesitation.
Im not saying he's right just because he had seen a lot of things, but the fact he clearly thought about it long and hard before deciding to do it shows he's not doing it for himself but for something/someone else. Obviously.

Certainly that reverence can be reduced, but fear is definitely going in the wrong direction.

how so? you seem to have an idea.
i believe in order to achieve something, certain things must be sacrificed. for example, this facade of "peace" and order among vampires shattered because kaname took out the council. along with that, was "fear", i dont think there's right or wrong direction for this as its expected

knightmare wrote: Kaname may believe he's driving change with these killings, that doesn't make his actions right.

And you judge his action from the action itself. If you had seen Yuuki or Zero killing Rido, or Takuma killing his grandfather without knowing anything for their evil role would you judge them with the same standards? If yes then your criterion is obviously wrong, if no, then you are using double standards. Which is it?

Do you know why he killed Nagamichi, Hana and Hiou? If you do please inform me cuz seems like I missed the scans where has been revealed the reason …

Zero thought he was saving people by pre-emptively killing the purebloods,

Can you provide us the scan where Zero says that he wants to kill ALL the PBs to save the world?
Cuz I have in mind an old statement of his, where he says that he had no intention to save humans …

Yuuki: “I heard from the chairman that the girl you saved is fine … You’re relieved right?”
Zero: “Not really … it’s not that I went to hunt that Level-e wanting to save someone … my will has nothing to do with it … its just work”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2115-19/vampire-knight/chapter-14.html

And just a sample of his recent statements …

“Why can’t I just kill them as I please? There’s not enough to satisfy me this way.”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2178-17/vampire-knight/chapter-50.html

Kaito: “Hey I can feel your thirst for killing practically oozing out of your pores.”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-29253-6/vampire-knight/chapter-53.html

Excuse me but the satisfaction or the thirst for killing I have a problem to identify with the ideology “I want to save the world” … Can you?

The standard is that having good intentions doesn't make a murder right. The standard is to judge that humans and vampires should only be punished after they have committed a crime.

Ofc the intention alone isn’t justifying a murder if the “victim” hasn’t done anything wrong. But again do you know IF Kaname’s targets have done something wrong or IF they would pose a big threat??? If you do please inform me too.

Zero's killings have followed that, but Kaname's have not as far as we know, he has not justified his killings with crimes to make it reasonable, especially Aido's father's. and yes killing within or outside the law does actually make the difference.

Do you think that Zero and Kaname are having the same position or the same authority? Cuz as far as I know Zero is an “officer” which means he follows orders and has no right to decide, whereas Kaname is a leader/ruler with the authority and responsibility to decide! Don’t put them on the same level.

And again do you know why he killed Nagamichi? The FACT that you/we don’t know the reason yet, is enough to say that isn’t reasonable; because as far as I know the term unreasonable means that there is no reason not that I don’t know the reason. Furthermore probably you think that Kain, Ruka and Takuma have lost their minds too, to believe and still trust Kaname after he killed their uncle for no reason …

Are all the laws righteous? Have the hunters’ laws saved humans from turning into servants? Did the hunters stop Shizuka or Rido? Have they succeeded to prevent Sara from killing Ouri just to take his power or their partner?
Did Sara use the hunters’ law to make her doings seemed legal? Do you think that this law is right or that has protected the humans?
As you can see their law system isn’t so right or effective after all.
And if a system its proven wrong or helpless then it has to change; and who has the responsibility to do that? The rulers and not the officers …

And IF the hunters were so capable to rule, why they needed Kaname’s contribution? Did they or didn’t sign the agreement acknowledging Kaname as the responsible ONE to bring the eternal sleep?

Kaname: “Our race will also take upon itself to deliver eternal sleep to any of our kind unduly presenting a threat to human lives”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-29253-25/vampire-knight/chapter-53.html

Except if you believe that the hunters are also wrong to want the eternal sleep (=death) for those who will pose a threat.

Note that the hunters are not the only rulers … In FACT only Kaname is the ruler for his race … and if you don’t accept that, please tell me why they were expecting from Kaname to deal with Sara and they didn’t impose their LAW?
The vampires’ society and moreover the PBs do not accept the HA as their leader neither the hunters have the power to control them.

We don't make the distinction between the soldier who despises killing and the soldier who enjoys killing his enemy and say one is right for killing and the other is not. Nope, we only judge if either or both violate the rules in doing so.

First as I said above Zero and Kaname haven’t the same role/position. Zero is a soldier obliged to follow his leader orders, whereas Kaname is the leader.
And secondly which rule Kaname violate? Because he didn’t kill someone who was into the hunters’ list? But he has no such commitment to follow the list. The list exist only for the hunters viz officers.
The only part of the agreement that we can say he didn’t follow is that he didn’t inform before hand the hunters but then again the hunters were the ones who show FIRST their disbelief to Kaname by arresting Hanabusa without any reason cuz they suspected Kaname … Could they ask Kaname or they couldn’t? But they chose not to do that … Again, we have to see why he didn’t inform anyone for what he was planning to do except his partners, Ruka and Kain.

Anything else is just judging the character of the person and that is personal.

Yeap … this is exactly what you’re doing … judging the character based on your personal preferences/dislikes …

So you can say you don't like the killings or that indulging in killing is bad for his emotional state, but you cannot claim they are wrongful killings. I don't think its wrong for Zero to kill vampires on the list, but he's clearly indulging himself and he's using as an outlet which is unhealthy.

Personally I don’t find Zero’s killings wrongful viz illegal, but I think his motive is unhealthy which means that his mentality is questionable …

As a personal judgement, I don't agree with killing nobles or purebloods just because I don't think purebloods should be revered and do not see Kaname's method as the singular way to resolve it. What is kaname going to do, kill everyone who revers them? He certainly can't kill all the purebloods since he's obviously not going to kill Yuuki and as long as there are purebloods and vampires below them, they will be revered. Certainly that reverence can be reduced, but fear is definitely going in the wrong direction.

Seems like you’ve concluded that Kaname is killing for exemplification, or his plan is to kill all the PBs … How so? Where are you basing your conclusions/judgment? Cuz as far as I know he had killed 2 PBs and 1 noble for UNKNOWN REASONS thus far. The lack of reasoning for now doesn’t justify you to make already judgments <<< this is preconceived judgment …

And as I have said many many times in my previous posts, hunters’ judgement wasn’t always right …

Bottom line is that the rulers should be judged from their reasoning and the outcome of their actions … So far we don’t know Kaname’s reasons, nor his outcome, only his actions. The same goes for the hunters too … why they let Sara enter to the academy since they have already too many clues for her crimes?
Judging only from their action this is wrong, no?

After this chapter i think we see that Zero's hate for the purebloods has not changed, since he is willing to let go of Kaname (the one that the association called dangerous) in order to fullfill this task for him.

So we know that his feelings about the purebloods have remained the same...

On the other hand Kaname killing the purebloods (apparently we still do not know the reasons-are not stated) is only seen unjustified? Its a good thing that Hino balances these two that way so we know that Kaname's action might seem illegal but right now Zero's decision to overlook the killings (whereas his position is actually at the opposite side and he should act out of obligation) is no better justified.

For Kaname we can at least keep the benefit of the doubt? (?)

There are so many facets to Kaname's plan that if any of them changed it would've thrown the entire thing off. It's not like Zero was destined to kill Rido because if Kaname didn't interfere, he probably might not even have the power to kill him. Even if Zero had his own reasons, if Zero didn't gain all that power through Kaname's plan, it would make sense for someone more skilled to have carried out the duty instead. I don't know, there are way too many “what-if” scenarios so it's hard to tell how things might have turned out if something changed.
I'm pretty sure Kaien took in Zero without even consulting Kaname. Because Kaname didn't meet him until after and then he started planning.

Okay I agree with you there about Ichiru and Kaname saving Zero from falling to Level E.

I didn't say that Zero pointed his gun at Yuuki because of Kaname. That was all Zero. My argument was that if Zero supposedly benefited from Kaname's plan, why would he want to die right after? The only “benefit” to Zero was being able to kill Rido but really how meaningful is that when he just found out that his whole life was controlled by purebloods. Just by seeing how Zero is so full of hate now shows that he didn't benefit.

The hunters choose their president based on power alone not on merit which is pretty damn stupid to begin with since anyone who disobeys the orders of the president can be executed. T.T
But moving on...of course the hunters are never unfailing. They can make mistakes but so can the purebloods. I'm assuming the reason the hunters can't convict Sara is because of the rule but they allowed her into the academy to keep an eye on her? I don't know why Kaname is doing what he is doing but we'll see.

Again Zero's actions, they are within the law, so that is the reason. Kaname's are not that's why he is considered dangerous. It really is as simple as that.
Though right now after seeing the current chapter, I don't know what is with Zero. He should care about what Kaname is doing T.T

I wouldn't argue on whether Zero's hate is justified or not. Basically he was born in the hunter clan so he was always taught to never trust vampires and hunt down the dangerous ones. So he never really liked vampires to begin with and saw them as dangerous beings. His beliefs were further strengthened when his family got attacked and yes the trauma did further increase his hatred for them. But had it only been just an attack on his family then I guess Zero would have moved on more easily. Thing is, Zero was a very promising child.. a strong hunter from a very powerful hunter family.. Vampires not only destroyed his home but they also ruined his future... He would have gotten over the deaths of his parents but the fact that made it worse was that he himself was bitten and was slowly turning into the monster he always saw as the enemy.. And this spread the hatred to the point that he even hated himself for becoming something so hate-worthy and losing himself... Every second of his life after the trauma made him remember it when he had to struggle and resist and go through so much pain to stop his transformation into a vampire... That is why he couldn't get over it, that incident changed his entire life and turned it into a fiasco.. from a powerful and promising hunter, Zero was reduced to a beast in human form fated to lose his sanity and die the death of a monster.. That is why he hates everything vampire and is bent on destroying the PBs because they can cause so much suffering... justified or not I think that's how his brain works..

His hate can not be compared to Shizuka's because the death of her lover wasn't something she couldn't escape where as for Zero, the attack on his family and himself was an incident he could not escape no matter how much time passed because this very incident redefined his entire life because he was bitten and hence condemned to fall to Level E.. that is the source of Zero's hate: becoming a blood-thirsty monster and hurting the ones he cares about.. Shizuka never had to deal with all that so she could have moved on, but Zero had no hope, his fall was inevitable..

I have another theory to it too... I think Zero didn't always have this goal of killing off all the PBs.. I think that after he was bitten, though he did hate vampires but he didn't had killing them all in his mind.. He only planned on resisting his vampire instincts as long as he could and suppressing the monster inside him for whatever little time he could. He already knew it was hopeless but he still struggled hard to keep it at bay.. So he had basically lost hope for having a future and hence didn't have any long term goals such as killing PBs in mind.. He even tried to kill himself after he had completely transformed into a vampire and had bitten Yuuki because of his infinite hatred of himself and the monster he had become... But that's when Yuuki stepped in and stopped him and even gave him a hope for the future and Zero was able to live on and decide to struggle against his fate rather than give up and end his life.. So basically Yuuki was the reason Zero was alive and bearing it.. But then things changed and Yuuki turned into a pureblood and was destined to be by Kaname's side forever so that meant she could no longer support Zero and his struggle i.e. Zero no longer had a reason to stay alive and struggle anymore and he hated vampires even more now that they even took Yuuki away from him.. That's when Ichiru stepped in and lent Zero his power telling him to use it to "fulfill his duty" (we don't know what this duty was but Zero clearly took it as killing all the purebloods) and he was already fueled by hatred and bitterness enough by the loss of Yuuki and his brother (I think he blamed his vampire thirst for Ichiru's death too so that made for another reason for Zero to hate the monster he had become)... So couple all these feelings of suffering sorrow and bitterness and hatred and you get exactly how Zero felt about everything and so I don't think he needed much encouragement to go after this "duty" he had to fulfill now that he had enough strength and wasn't falling to level E.. So Ichiru gave Zero a new reason to live now that Yuuki wasn't supporting him and according to that new goal, all the PBs were his enemies including Yuuki.. I think that's why he let her go and told her he would kill her the next time they met...

Whether his feelings and actions are justified is an entirely relative concept and depends on the POV of the reader though....

Snow wrote:

Again Zero's actions, they are within the law, so that is the reason. Kaname's are not that's why he is considered dangerous. It really is as simple as that.
Though right now after seeing the current chapter, I don't know what is with Zero. He should care about what Kaname is doing T.T

Well I think Zero's motives, decisions and actions have been pretty clear up till now, the exact opposite of Kaname, whose motives are hidden and mysterious...
Zero has made it pretty clear that he hates vampires and his goal to kill all purebloods is pretty clear too.. Keeping that in mind I don't think he has any reason to pursue Kaname especially when he is doing the job for him...

shizza24 wrote:

Snow wrote:

Again Zero's actions, they are within the law, so that is the reason. Kaname's are not that's why he is considered dangerous. It really is as simple as that.
Though right now after seeing the current chapter, I don't know what is with Zero. He should care about what Kaname is doing T.T

Well I think Zero's motives, decisions and actions have been pretty clear up till now, the exact opposite of Kaname, whose motives are hidden and mysterious...

which is exactly WHY judgment on him should be reserved until he actually reveals it. You don't know his plans, you don't know why he's doing it, you just think its wrong because its killing purebloods, but that is actually having double standards for zero's fans and is unfair when there are all kinds of DEATH happening in vampire knight, most of all performed by Zero.
it is pretty hypocritical when Kaname is being judged on whether his killing is right even when he didnt say it yet AND THEN leave the others out of it??? just smashing.

shizza24 wrote:

Snow wrote:

Again Zero's actions, they are within the law, so that is the reason. Kaname's are not that's why he is considered dangerous. It really is as simple as that.
Though right now after seeing the current chapter, I don't know what is with Zero. He should care about what Kaname is doing T.T

Well I think Zero's motives, decisions and actions have been pretty clear up till now, the exact opposite of Kaname, whose motives are hidden and mysterious...
Zero has made it pretty clear that he hates vampires and his goal to kill all purebloods is pretty clear too.. Keeping that in mind I don't think he has any reason to pursue Kaname especially when he is doing the job for him...

Kaname is convicted guilty before goes to trial. we don't know kaname exact motives to do what he do, we just have something vague, but not a good explanations.

It's a hypocrisy to say zero motives are within the law and kaname doesn't, when zero whished exactly what kaname does now.

i said wished because zero seems to be ok with kaname's doing (for references look at chapter 74).

maybe kaname's actions are within the law too. if i remember correctly, kaname can take care of the problems between vampires. if kaname noticed something fishy in vampire society he's allowed to take care of the problem. the law allows him. sometime, this law is a b***h.

aya-chan wrote:

shizza24 wrote:

Snow wrote:

Again Zero's actions, they are within the law, so that is the reason. Kaname's are not that's why he is considered dangerous. It really is as simple as that.
Though right now after seeing the current chapter, I don't know what is with Zero. He should care about what Kaname is doing T.T

Well I think Zero's motives, decisions and actions have been pretty clear up till now, the exact opposite of Kaname, whose motives are hidden and mysterious...
Zero has made it pretty clear that he hates vampires and his goal to kill all purebloods is pretty clear too.. Keeping that in mind I don't think he has any reason to pursue Kaname especially when he is doing the job for him...

Kaname is convicted guilty before goes to trial. we don't know kaname exact motives to do what he do, we just have something vague, but not a good explanations.

It's a hypocrisy to say zero motives are within the law and kaname doesn't, when zero whished exactly what kaname does now.

i said wished because zero seems to be ok with kaname's doing (for references look at chapter 74).

maybe kaname's actions are within the law too. if i remember correctly, kaname can take care of the problems between vampires. if kaname noticed something fishy in vampire society he's allowed to take care of the problem. the law allows him. sometime, this law is a b***h.

I agree with Aya, you can not blame the one but put no blame at the other, that's why what Hino does right now is very smart...its either both that go down the drain or none...also..another point I wanted to say...

My argument was that if Zero supposedly benefited from Kaname's plan, why would he want to die right after? The only “benefit” to Zero was being able to kill Rido but really how meaningful is that when he just found out that his whole life was controlled by purebloods. Just by seeing how Zero is so full of hate now shows that he didn't benefit.

As Shizza writes here;

So he had basically lost hope for having a future and hence didn't have any long term goals such as killing PBs in mind.. He even tried to kill himself after he had completely transformed into a vampire and had bitten Yuuki because of his infinite hatred of himself and the monster he had become...

Zero wanted to give an end to his life before Kaname's plan (as you say it) came into action...he hated himself first...Kaname's plan saved his life (Zero was desperate because he though he would become a monster and kill others along with him ending up dead) and gave him a future. So how is it possible that Zero who had no hope did NOT benefit from it? Apparently it did, but Zero has to solve his emotional and psychological problems on his own.

Naturally as a hunter he does not like vampires, he hates the beast inside, he saw his parents killed by a pureblood, he learned that another one had organized that crime, he lost his brother due to Shizuka's influence, he intentionally fall in love with a pureblood and after all that he has been through Kaname is the problem here that made Zero miserable?

Don't think so.

Zero's killings are justified since the only vampires he kills are the ones convicted by the association and those that pose a direct threat to humans.. Since he's playing by the rules I don't think his actions are wrong..

As for Kaname, I think we should reserve our judgments until after his plan is revealed. Even though his actions appear wrong at the moment I am sure Hino will come up with a good justification.. So I think all of us should wait for her to enlighten us on what Kaname is planning before labeling him as a cold blooded murderer.. His actions are not justified yet but I personally think they will be soon...