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Α forum dedicated to Hino's Matsuri best-seller manga Vampire Knight and the manga we love

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is zero manipulating? Bar_left15%is zero manipulating? Bar_right 15% [ 6 ]

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    is zero manipulating?

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    Post by kanamekuranlover Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:01 am

    in chapter 83 he clearly said that he wanted to kill kaname and then in chapter 84 when sara told him to kill kaname,he refused saying that he only wanted to hold him and not kill him.was this sudden change influenced by yuuki or he is just manipulating to remain in yuuki's goodwill??was is it?? Shocked
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    Post by ButterflyWingsx Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:41 am

    Hmmm..when I read the first translations that came out right after the raws, I was under the impression that Zero was mad that Sara's power was weak and it couldn't hold Kaname down. Seriously, I don't know why Zero thought Sara was stronger than Kaname. Kaname's not even using his full powers, it's like he's playing with everyone. He took out the entire council without even batting an eye, Kaname will only die if he willingly lay down his life and let himself be killed.

    Anyway, the new translations are confusing in some parts like the part you mentioned in this topic. I thought Zero wanted to get revenge on Kaname by killing him, but yeah now he says power to hold him down. It's either a mistranslation or Zero wanted to first capture Kaname and take his revenge at a later time maybe? scratch

    In any case, I don't fully trust online translations that's why I buy the volumes with the official translations. But online translations will do for now.


    I have to ask, what do you mean is Zero manipulating?


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    Post by kanamekuranlover Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:22 am

    ButterflyWingsx wrote:Hmmm..when I read the first translations that came out right after the raws, I was under the impression that Zero was mad that Sara's power was weak and it couldn't hold Kaname down. Seriously, I don't know why Zero thought Sara was stronger than Kaname. Kaname's not even using his full powers, it's like he's playing with everyone. He took out the entire council without even batting an eye, Kaname will only die if he willingly lay down his life and let himself be killed.

    Anyway, the new translations are confusing in some parts like the part you mentioned in this topic. I thought Zero wanted to get revenge on Kaname by killing him, but yeah now he says power to hold him down. It's either a mistranslation or Zero wanted to first capture Kaname and take his revenge at a later time maybe? scratch

    In any case, I don't fully trust online translations that's why I buy the volumes with the official translations. But online translations will do for now.


    I have to ask, what do you mean is Zero manipulating?



    i meant if zero is manipulating to be in goodwill of yuuki,if he said he wants to kill kaname like sara,yuuki would not have liked it,same goes for kaname.
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    Post by Kara Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:51 pm

    I think the question KanameKuranLover means to ask is:

    Why doesn't Zero fulfill his promises (threats) to kill Kaname?

    In just Chapter 83, Zero showed how traumatized and angry he was over Kaname's involvement in the loss of his family and it was obvious that he wanted Kaname dead.
    But then in Chapter 84 (when Sara was encouraging Zero to launch a full-scale attack on Kaname) he didn't. confused

    So I think this thread is about Zero's reasons for this. Smile

    (At least, that's what I understood about this topic. I'm also not entirely sure what KanameKuranLover meant by being 'manipulative'...
    Did you mean that maybe Zero is not killing Kaname so that he will look good in front of Yuuki...? I can't try to guess what you're thinking here in case I get it really wrong.... sorry KKL. Perhaps you could explain why you think this and we can see it from your point of view? Embarassed)


    *******


    Personally, I don't think Zero is being manipulative...? I think it was because of a few reasons, actually.


    Reason 1:

    Zero isn't technically allowed to kill Kaname. scratch
    He definitely wasn't lying when he said that he wishes to inflict vengeance on Kaname, but Zero knows that what he wants and what is the right thing to do are not the same.

    Zero can't kill Kaname, because that would be in direct violation of hunter laws. The Hunter Association wants to capture Kaname for interrogation; not kill him (at least, not yet). For Zero to act on his own and kill Kaname (I'm speaking hypothetically here; I don't believe Zero can defeat Kaname), it would be disobeying his orders. Zero is far too dedicated to his job as a hunter to commit such a serious breach, so he controlled himself. Smile


    Reason 2:

    Zero does love Yuuki; he once said that his deepest desire was to see her smile from the bottom of her heart. Hurting the man that Yuuki loves is not going to make her happy by any means.

    He knows that Yuuki loves Kaname, so Zero must realize how much pain Yuuki would feel if any harm came to Kaname. Although Zero truly hates Kaname, he loves Yuuki. In this way, I imagine that Zero is torn. We'll have to see which side of Zero wins out in the end; Zero's desire to take revenge on Kaname, or Zero's reluctance to see Yuuki sad. pale


    Reason 3:

    A big reason, I think, is because Sara was ordering Zero to kill Kaname. Obviously, killing Kaname is what Zero wants for himself, but he's not doing it for Sara's benefit. It's Zero's form of revenge for Kaname's involvement in the death of his family. In Chapter 84, Sara was attempting to manipulate Zero into doing her bidding for her, which Zero realized and became angry about. He knew Sara was using him.

    Zero hates purebloods, and will not tolerate being ordered around by a vampire; he's no-one's 'killing doll'. While Zero does want to kill Kaname, in this scenario it would have looked like he was merely following Sara's orders.


    Reason 4:

    Zero's very intelligent. I think he knows that he doesn't have the strength to win a one-on-one battle with Kaname (at least, not at this stage). We saw how Zero's powers had increased after drinking Sara's blood when Bloody Rose's vines formed the shape of a beast, but I doubt her blood was enough to truly give Zero an edge over Kaname. Kaname is an ancestor and has devoured Shizuka as well so he's very, very powerful. And, of course, Yuuki is there to throw herself between them like the time they fought in Chapter 45, since they are supposed to be capturing Kaname, not killing him... Shocked Yuuki and the other hunters would surely intervene.


    Last edited by Kara on Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post by nina Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:59 pm

    My answer is yes under the precondition that he still wants to kill Kaname i.e. that his goal isn’t only to capture him -as Yuuki wants- and as he let Yuuki believe. If that’s the case then Zero is manipulating Yuuki because he is using deception … if he lied to her as he did to Cross regarding Sara’s tablets.

    Now he states in front of Yuuki when Sara disclosed their agreement that he only wanted more power to hold him down or according to other translation that he wanted powers stronger than Kaname’s.

    But the question is; why we should believe him? Where can we base the benefit of a doubt while his actions are contradicting his words and when is proven that he is perfectly capable to lie? Plus his notorious hatred for Kaname which now is fueled more than ever?

    Prior their battle takes place (I mean Kaname vs Zero) it was pretty obvious that Zero wanted indeed to kill him something that was confirmed further from the battle> Zero was trying to kill Kaname with all he got whereas Kaname was trying to defend himself (as many Yumes supported from the beginning) and it was proven later from Zero’s admission.

    To be honest this point is the only that made me think that Zero might have changed his mind after he realized that Kaname didn’t mean to harm him.

    However the last chapter didn’t help much to clear this issue either lol

    When Sara arrogantly orders him to kill Kaname he said that he only wanted to hold him down –something that he did- and called Yuuki to assist him.

    Kaname released himself again and then Takuma interfered trying to stop Kaname.
    http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-84-page-29.html

    My interpretation of that scene is that Takuma thought that Kaname would have tried to attack Sara with his raised sword thus and he tried to stop him shouting to Sara to escape. Sara seems for a moment that she’ll take her harem and leave but she changed her mind and orders again Zero to shoot Kaname >>

    http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-84-page-31.html

    >> and we see Zero pointing his gun. The panels aren’t helpful to understand for sure to whom Zero is pointing his gun; to Kaname or to Sara?

    My impression though is that he is pointing his gun to Kaname because >

    - He is holding his head while Sara orders him … this might be a sign that Sara is using her blood inside Zero and actually it is working thus and Zero is in that state. Remember that he had the exact same reaction when Kaname used his blood in the previous chapters >
    http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-82-page-30.html
    http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-83-page-4.html
    http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-83-page-9.html


    > bats are coming from Zero – a sign that Kaname’s blood inside him took over control- and he is at a loss.

    Ain’t Zero’s reactions pretty similar?

    Thus I came to the conclusion that Zero was influenced from Sara’s blood and he was pointing his gun to Kaname but Takuma interfered again cuz as he said he didn’t want Kaname dead as well.
    http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-84-page-32.html

    A side note to this … Zero he is not only pointing his gun but he also shoots … the sound (SFX) in the panel is a “bam” so we can assume that if Takuma hadn’t grabbed Zero’s hands he might have had harmed or even killed someone.


    But Sara seeing that Zero now is disarmed decides to attack by herself >
    http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-84-page-35.html

    So to sum up … for me Zero probably tried to kill Kaname again, however he might have been controlled from Sara. If so then this is a mitigating factor for him.

    Bottom line I want to see his next moves which hopefully will make his intentions clearer.
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    Post by Kara Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:27 pm

    nina wrote:
    But the question is; why we should believe him? Where can we base the benefit of a doubt while his actions are contradicting his words and when is proven that he is perfectly capable to lie?

    Yes, Zero has lied in the past, and we don't really know what his intentions are for sure. He has misled people to keep them in the dark about certain things. For example, Zero tried to feign ignorance about who was fighting with Touma so that he didn't have to discuss Yuuki with Kaien, (Chapter 65):

    http://www.mangareader.net/104-57815-16/vampire-knight/chapter-65.html

    ...and here, where Kaien asked him directly and Zero had no way to dodge answering fully:

    http://www.mangareader.net/104-57815-17/vampire-knight/chapter-65.html


    Zero has kept secrets as well. But I don't think everything he's said in the past was all meant to be deliberately deceptive. scratch

    When he gets angry or emotional, Zero tends to lash out and say or do things that he regrets later. Sad

    It's like how, in real life, when people are in an argument and get really angry sometimes they might not think their words through and say something to the other person without actually meaning it.

    Zero has, at times, been quite compulsive and his stoic composure as been known to show cracks every once and a while. I think that that could be a possible reason for the contradiction between his actions and his words. I think one of Zero's biggest 'contradictions' or lies was in Chapter 46, when Zero said to Yuuki,

    "Next time we meet, I'll kill you, too."

    ...which we all know didn't happen at their next meeting (the banquet, or even the meeting after that).

    It's possible that Zero only said that because he had only just discovered that Yuuki was a pureblood, and was still in a state of shock and anger. The girl he had grown to love was actually the creature he despised Crying or Very sad He was coming to grips with the fact that he had 'lost' the last person alive he still cared for, and was in a lot of pain, I think. pale

    But then he had a whole year to cool down and look at the situation objectively. Zero couldn't just kill Yuuki even if he wanted to (which I don't think he does), because a hunter cannot just go around killing vampires on a whim. It's against hunter law to do so; they must only kill the vampires on the 'list', and thus far Yuuki is not on it. Zero is dedicated to his hunter duties, and wouldn't break the law (jeopardizing the system) to fulfill his own personal goals. So really, it was an empty threat. Because if Zero went through with it, he would be a renegade in the eyes of the Hunter Association and perhaps be thrown out of the Hunters Guild affraid
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    Post by nina Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:08 pm

    Kara wrote: But I don't think everything he's said in the past was all meant to be deliberately deceptive.

    I was talking specifically about the last agreement that he supposedly had with Yuuki >> to team up for capturing Kaname. << this is and the main question of this thread … not Zero’s behavior overall.

    The comparison between Zero’s empty threat towards Yuuki and his threat to kill Kaname are two totally different things.

    But the questions are >>
    Does he still want to kill Kaname?
    Did he try to kill him?


    If yes then he manipulated Yuuki because he let Yuuki believe that his aim was not to kill Kaname but to capture him. He ensured her assistance by lying or if you like by covering the whole truth because he saw that he cannot overpower Kaname even with Sara’s blood in his system so he needed help. Yuuki’s reaction when Sara disclosed what Zero had done showing her surprise clearly.
    I think is clear what I’m stating here.

    Thus I’ll say again that for answering with certainty on the main question we should be clear about Zero’s true intentions towards Kaname.


    Yes Zero till now was dedicated to his role as a hunter and controlled his personal feelings for Kaname.

    However after the recent chapters I do not know how much this still stands. Zero sided with Sara not for serving better his role as a hunter but for serving ONLY his need for revenge. Do his needs serve the greater good? Apparently no.
    And as Sara said; he might barking that he doesn’t take orders from PBs but the truth is that with his actions he PROTECTED her.

    And he protected her; what for? Cuz he ideologically is against the killings as Cross? No ofc … he protected her because that was their agreement and under this condition Sara gave her blood to him in other words his ONLY concern was to take his revenge being indifferent if he was helping synchronously an evil PB who harmed HUMANS. << Isn’t the greater obligation for every hunter to protect humans? I think it is.
    Plus as I said above he lied to his superior Cross, hindering or stalling the investigation about the tablets. Does this behavior indicate a role model for a hunter?? Shocked

    So this statement >>


    Zero is dedicated to his hunter duties, and wouldn't break the law (jeopardizing the system) to fulfill his own personal goals. So really, it was an empty threat. Because if Zero went through with it, he would be a renegade in the eyes of the Hunter Association and perhaps be thrown out of the Hunters Guild

    > sorry but his latest actions doesn’t prove your words … quite the opposite IMO.

    Zero does love Yuuki; he once said that his deepest desire was to see her smile from the bottom of her heart. Hurting the man that Yuuki loves is not going to make her happy by any means.

    He knows that Yuuki loves Kaname, so Zero must realize how much pain Yuuki would feel if any harm came to Kaname. Although Zero truly hates Kaname, he loves Yuuki. In this way, I imagine that Zero is torn. We'll have to see which side of Zero wins out in the end; Zero's desire to take revenge on Kaname, or Zero's reluctance to see Yuuki sad.


    True … those were his feelings in the past, but currently are still the same? Because you are referring on something that Zero said when Yuuki was still HUMAN.
    According with his updated thoughts probably no.

    Didn’t he think (hours ago) >> “why did I have that wish?” (i.e. wishing for Yuuki’s happiness beside Kaname)

    In other words NOW he is questioning his older stance and right after that thought he gave his hand to Sara sealing the deal with her >> “I’ll help you and you will give me your blood in order to take my revenge/kill Kaname >> kill Yuuki’s happiness; stretching it further …

    So where does this leave us? Does Zero have the same mind as in the past or he has changed? I think that we cannot be so sure anymore…

    Zero's very intelligent. I think he knows that he doesn't have the strength to win a one-on-one battle with Kaname (at least, not at this stage).

    Well he didn’t know … he had to learn by trying haha
    So should I question his intelligent as well?
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    Post by kanamekuranlover Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:31 pm

    nina wrote:
    Kara wrote: But I don't think everything he's said in the past was all meant to be deliberately deceptive.

    I was talking specifically about the last agreement that he supposedly had with Yuuki >> to team up for capturing Kaname. << this is and the main question of this thread … not Zero’s behavior overall.

    The comparison between Zero’s empty threat towards Yuuki and his threat to kill Kaname are two totally different things.

    But the questions are >>
    Does he still want to kill Kaname?
    Did he try to kill him?


    If yes then he manipulated Yuuki because he let Yuuki believe that his aim was not to kill Kaname but to capture him. He ensured her assistance by lying or if you like by covering the whole truth because he saw that he cannot overpower Kaname even with Sara’s blood in his system so he needed help. Yuuki’s reaction when Sara disclosed what Zero had done showing her surprise clearly.
    I think is clear what I’m stating here.

    Thus I’ll say again that for answering with certainty on the main question we should be clear about Zero’s true intentions towards Kaname.


    Yes Zero till now was dedicated to his role as a hunter and controlled his personal feelings for Kaname.

    However after the recent chapters I do not know how much this still stands. Zero sided with Sara not for serving better his role as a hunter but for serving ONLY his need for revenge. Do his needs serve the greater good? Apparently no.
    And as Sara said; he might barking that he doesn’t take orders from PBs but the truth is that with his actions he PROTECTED her.

    And he protected her; what for? Cuz he ideologically is against the killings as Cross? No ofc … he protected her because that was their agreement and under this condition Sara gave her blood to him in other words his ONLY concern was to take his revenge being indifferent if he was helping synchronously an evil PB who harmed HUMANS. << Isn’t the greater obligation for every hunter to protect humans? I think it is.
    Plus as I said above he lied to his superior Cross, hindering or stalling the investigation about the tablets. Does this behavior indicate a role model for a hunter?? Shocked

    So this statement >>


    Zero is dedicated to his hunter duties, and wouldn't break the law (jeopardizing the system) to fulfill his own personal goals. So really, it was an empty threat. Because if Zero went through with it, he would be a renegade in the eyes of the Hunter Association and perhaps be thrown out of the Hunters Guild

    > sorry but his latest actions doesn’t prove your words … quite the opposite IMO.

    Zero does love Yuuki; he once said that his deepest desire was to see her smile from the bottom of her heart. Hurting the man that Yuuki loves is not going to make her happy by any means.

    He knows that Yuuki loves Kaname, so Zero must realize how much pain Yuuki would feel if any harm came to Kaname. Although Zero truly hates Kaname, he loves Yuuki. In this way, I imagine that Zero is torn. We'll have to see which side of Zero wins out in the end; Zero's desire to take revenge on Kaname, or Zero's reluctance to see Yuuki sad.


    True … those were his feelings in the past, but currently are still the same? Because you are referring on something that Zero said when Yuuki was still HUMAN.
    According with his updated thoughts probably no.

    Didn’t he think (hours ago) >> “why did I have that wish?” (i.e. wishing for Yuuki’s happiness beside Kaname)

    In other words NOW he is questioning his older stance and right after that thought he gave his hand to Sara sealing the deal with her >> “I’ll help you and you will give me your blood in order to take my revenge/kill Kaname >> kill Yuuki’s happiness; stretching it further …

    So where does this leave us? Does Zero have the same mind as in the past or he has changed? I think that we cannot be so sure anymore…

    Zero's very intelligent. I think he knows that he doesn't have the strength to win a one-on-one battle with Kaname (at least, not at this stage).

    Well he didn’t know … he had to learn by trying haha
    So should I question his intelligent as well?


    agree nina,zero is a selfish person who only seeks revenge but on the same time its not a totally different situation from reality,he is no saint or mahatma gandhi,he loved his parents and surely wants revenge for their death.
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    Post by Saphira_K Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:41 pm

    nina wrote:My answer is yes under the precondition that he still wants to kill Kaname i.e. that his goal isn’t only to capture him -as Yuuki wants- and as he let Yuuki believe. If that’s the case then Zero is manipulating Yuuki because he is using deception … if he lied to her as he did to Cross regarding Sara’s tablets.

    Now he states in front of Yuuki when Sara disclosed their agreement that he only wanted more power to hold him down or according to other translation that he wanted powers stronger than Kaname’s.

    But the question is; why we should believe him? Where can we base the benefit of a doubt while his actions are contradicting his words and when is proven that he is perfectly capable to lie? Plus his notorious hatred for Kaname which now is fueled more than ever?

    Prior their battle takes place (I mean Kaname vs Zero) it was pretty obvious that Zero wanted indeed to kill him something that was confirmed further from the battle> Zero was trying to kill Kaname with all he got whereas Kaname was trying to defend himself (as many Yumes supported from the beginning) and it was proven later from Zero’s admission.

    To be honest this point is the only that made me think that Zero might have changed his mind after he realized that Kaname didn’t mean to harm him.

    However the last chapter didn’t help much to clear this issue either lol

    When Sara arrogantly orders him to kill Kaname he said that he only wanted to hold him down –something that he did- and called Yuuki to assist him.

    Kaname released himself again and then Takuma interfered trying to stop Kaname.
    http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-84-page-29.html

    My interpretation of that scene is that Takuma thought that Kaname would have tried to attack Sara with his raised sword thus and he tried to stop him shouting to Sara to escape. Sara seems for a moment that she’ll take her harem and leave but she changed her mind and orders again Zero to shoot Kaname >>

    http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-84-page-31.html

    >> and we see Zero pointing his gun. The panels aren’t helpful to understand for sure to whom Zero is pointing his gun; to Kaname or to Sara?

    My impression though is that he is pointing his gun to Kaname because >

    - He is holding his head while Sara orders him … this might be a sign that Sara is using her blood inside Zero and actually it is working thus and Zero is in that state. Remember that he had the exact same reaction when Kaname used his blood in the previous chapters >
    http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-82-page-30.html
    http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-83-page-4.html
    http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-83-page-9.html


    > bats are coming from Zero – a sign that Kaname’s blood inside him took over control- and he is at a loss.

    Ain’t Zero’s reactions pretty similar?

    Thus I came to the conclusion that Zero was influenced from Sara’s blood and he was pointing his gun to Kaname but Takuma interfered again cuz as he said he didn’t want Kaname dead as well.
    http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-84-page-32.html

    A side note to this … Zero he is not only pointing his gun but he also shoots … the sound (SFX) in the panel is a “bam” so we can assume that if Takuma hadn’t grabbed Zero’s hands he might have had harmed or even killed someone.


    But Sara seeing that Zero now is disarmed decides to attack by herself >
    http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-84-page-35.html

    So to sum up … for me Zero probably tried to kill Kaname again, however he might have been controlled from Sara. If so then this is a mitigating factor for him.

    Bottom line I want to see his next moves which hopefully will make his intentions clearer.

    nina wrote:
    Kara wrote: But I don't think everything he's said in the past was all meant to be deliberately deceptive.

    I was talking specifically about the last agreement that he supposedly had with Yuuki >> to team up for capturing Kaname. << this is and the main question of this thread … not Zero’s behavior overall.

    The comparison between Zero’s empty threat towards Yuuki and his threat to kill Kaname are two totally different things.

    But the questions are >>
    Does he still want to kill Kaname?
    Did he try to kill him?


    If yes then he manipulated Yuuki because he let Yuuki believe that his aim was not to kill Kaname but to capture him. He ensured her assistance by lying or if you like by covering the whole truth because he saw that he cannot overpower Kaname even with Sara’s blood in his system so he needed help. Yuuki’s reaction when Sara disclosed what Zero had done showing her surprise clearly.
    I think is clear what I’m stating here.

    Thus I’ll say again that for answering with certainty on the main question we should be clear about Zero’s true intentions towards Kaname.


    Yes Zero till now was dedicated to his role as a hunter and controlled his personal feelings for Kaname.

    However after the recent chapters I do not know how much this still stands. Zero sided with Sara not for serving better his role as a hunter but for serving ONLY his need for revenge. Do his needs serve the greater good? Apparently no.
    And as Sara said; he might barking that he doesn’t take orders from PBs but the truth is that with his actions he PROTECTED her.

    And he protected her; what for? Cuz he ideologically is against the killings as Cross? No ofc … he protected her because that was their agreement and under this condition Sara gave her blood to him in other words his ONLY concern was to take his revenge being indifferent if he was helping synchronously an evil PB who harmed HUMANS. << Isn’t the greater obligation for every hunter to protect humans? I think it is.
    Plus as I said above he lied to his superior Cross, hindering or stalling the investigation about the tablets. Does this behavior indicate a role model for a hunter?? Shocked

    So this statement >>


    Zero is dedicated to his hunter duties, and wouldn't break the law (jeopardizing the system) to fulfill his own personal goals. So really, it was an empty threat. Because if Zero went through with it, he would be a renegade in the eyes of the Hunter Association and perhaps be thrown out of the Hunters Guild

    > sorry but his latest actions doesn’t prove your words … quite the opposite IMO.

    Zero does love Yuuki; he once said that his deepest desire was to see her smile from the bottom of her heart. Hurting the man that Yuuki loves is not going to make her happy by any means.

    He knows that Yuuki loves Kaname, so Zero must realize how much pain Yuuki would feel if any harm came to Kaname. Although Zero truly hates Kaname, he loves Yuuki. In this way, I imagine that Zero is torn. We'll have to see which side of Zero wins out in the end; Zero's desire to take revenge on Kaname, or Zero's reluctance to see Yuuki sad.


    True … those were his feelings in the past, but currently are still the same? Because you are referring on something that Zero said when Yuuki was still HUMAN.
    According with his updated thoughts probably no.

    Didn’t he think (hours ago) >> “why did I have that wish?” (i.e. wishing for Yuuki’s happiness beside Kaname)

    In other words NOW he is questioning his older stance and right after that thought he gave his hand to Sara sealing the deal with her >> “I’ll help you and you will give me your blood in order to take my revenge/kill Kaname >> kill Yuuki’s happiness; stretching it further …

    So where does this leave us? Does Zero have the same mind as in the past or he has changed? I think that we cannot be so sure anymore…

    Zero's very intelligent. I think he knows that he doesn't have the strength to win a one-on-one battle with Kaname (at least, not at this stage).

    Well he didn’t know … he had to learn by trying haha
    So should I question his intelligent as well?

    well stated and though out nina! have to agree! cheers
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    Post by ButterflyWingsx Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:08 pm

    kanamekuranlover wrote:i meant if zero is manipulating to be in goodwill of yuuki,if he said he wants to kill kaname like sara,yuuki would not have liked it,same goes for kaname.

    Honestly, I can't answer that question coz I don't know what Zero's thinking. He definitely wants to kill Kaname he's made that very clear and his hatred for him. At the same time, I think that Zero knows he has to capture Kaname for the time being in order to stop him, thus, he can't kill him yet. Maybe he fights Kaname with the intent to kill due to Sara's blood. We'll have to wait and see what Zero does next. I'd like to think that Zero is not manipulating the situation, and that he wouldn't use Yuuki for his on purpose.


    Kara wrote:Zero's very intelligent. I think he knows that he doesn't have the strength to win a one-on-one battle with Kaname (at least, not at this stage). We saw how Zero's powers had increased after drinking Sara's blood when Bloody Rose's vines formed the shape of a beast, but I doubt her blood was enough to truly give Zero an edge over Kaname.

    I wonder if Zero even know that Kaname is the ancestor and that he has tremendous amount of powers. I didn't like the fact that he took Sara's blood so he could have the power to defeat Kaname for the simple fact that I thought it was insulting towards Kaname to think that Sara could defeat him. Sara could only defeat Kaname by being sneaky IMO, and catching him when he's most weak which happens to be when he's with Yuuki. He only lets his guards down around Yuuki. So yeah, Yuuki was the only reason why Sara even got close to Kaname because Kaname is holding back and not really fighting which makes him vulnerable to her attack.





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    Post by kanamekuranlover Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:11 am

    i think that final battle will be in between kaname and zero and yuuki will have to choose between them.this picture gives hint of it,by then takuma will be on kaname's side and zero on rival side and aido neutral because kaname killed his father.is zero manipulating? 477961

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    Post by Shoujo-Zo18 Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:50 am

    Kara wrote:
    Reason 3:

    A big reason, I think, is because Sara was ordering Zero to kill Kaname. Obviously, killing Kaname is what Zero wants for himself, but he's not doing it for Sara's benefit. It's Zero's form of revenge for Kaname's involvement in the death of his family. In Chapter 84, Sara was attempting to manipulate Zero into doing her bidding for her, which Zero realized and became angry about. He knew Sara was using him.

    Zero hates purebloods, and will not tolerate being ordered around by a vampire; he's no-one's 'killing doll'. While Zero does want to kill Kaname, in this scenario it would have looked like he was merely following Sara's orders

    While I can agree with the rest, this is actually the reason I was going to say. Zero hates purebloods and he clearly hates being manipulated by them... he expressed obvious anger and said " Don't talk to me as if you own me, pureblood..." I don't see any hidden meaning in that... Zero usually speaks his mind unless he's holding back his emotions. I don't think he has it in him to be manipulative like the purebloods he loathes so much... he wants what he wants, and I believe he wasn't lying when he said he only wanted to be more powerful than Kaname. Of course he would want to be... so that he'd be able to stop him on his own when he wants, not when Sara wants. But I do think Yuuki plays a big part too, even if he wants to kill Kaname, I don't think he'd do it without her consent... unless Kaname was a serious threat to Yuuki herself.
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    Post by shizza24 Fri Aug 03, 2012 3:10 am

    I think manipulation is a tactic that is uncharacteristic of Zero. Even the slightest understanding of his character should be able to tell us that.

    Zero is always straightforward with his actions as well as intentions. So I don't think he's manipulating Yuuki. Such a notion is extremely OOC for him. Zero clearly stated in 84 that he needed strength to restrain Kaname. So his purpose aligns with Yuuki. Hence why Yuuki asked Zero if she could stand alongside him since their goals were similar. So Zeki are working together as allies, no matter what way we look at it.

    Zero hasn't shown any intention to kill Kaname, as of now. So we can't assume that's what he wants to do. He also negated Sara when she tried to manipulate him into killing Kaname, saying he only intended to restrain him. As for the claim that he was putting up an act in front of Yuuki, I think it is invalid because Zero is not the type to put up fronts to appease Yuuki. He never did anything of such sort in the past and neither is he doing it now.

    Like I said, as opposed to Kaname who is secretive, Zero is open and straightforward. So he would not resort to dirty tactics just to get Yuuki on his side. If he had wanted to kill Kaname, he would have made it clear from the start, just like he did with Shizuka. He has never resorted to deception and hence I don't expect him to this time either.

    I don't think Zero was influenced by Sara because Zero has shown resistance to PB manipulation and he was even able to defy Shizuka, his own master. So Sara's attempt to manipulate Zero was fruitless, IMO. Hence Sara's calling him her "incomplete" killing doll, because Zero refused to do her bidding.

    Though I don't think it matters now because Sara's not a threat anymore after the original metal got her. So even if her influence made Zero want to kill Kaname, that influence is gone now, IMO.
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    Post by Dragonsrose15 Fri Aug 03, 2012 3:33 am

    It's honestly against Zero's personality to be manipulating Yuuki. There is no point to doing that in the first place. Zero rejected Sara's commands because Zero doesn't like to be controlled by purebloods. Zero had the ability to resist the very vampire that turned him, what makes you think he wouldn't be able to resist Sara? Someone that has significantly less power over him. He probably manipulated Sara if anything. He used her blood and made her think that he'd become her puppet, knowing that he was much stronger than what she made him out to be.
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    Post by kanamekuranlover Fri Aug 03, 2012 7:50 am

    Dragonsrose15 wrote:It's honestly against Zero's personality to be manipulating Yuuki. There is no point to doing that in the first place. Zero rejected Sara's commands because Zero doesn't like to be controlled by purebloods. Zero had the ability to resist the very vampire that turned him, what makes you think he wouldn't be able to resist Sara? Someone that has significantly less power over him. He probably manipulated Sara if anything. He used her blood and made her think that he'd become her puppet, knowing that he was much stronger than what she made him out to be.
    no you are wrong,zero did manipulated yuuki.in previous chapter he wanted to kill kaname and suddenly his objective got changed,to turn down kaname.zero is being a adorable since last few chapters.he is not the same vampire who wants to protect humans,he is for all about his revenge.and about yuuki anyone can easily manipulate her,she is stupid anyway.
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    Post by mariangie Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:13 pm

    Sara is the one manipulating Zero . Zero's personality doesn't allow him to manipulate most people . He can lie , but he has no art for making other people follow his suggestions easy . Zero is a piece in the V. K.'s Chess Game . Not an strategist .

    About why Zero didn't follow Sara's suggestions about killing Kaname .

    Zero did wanted to kill Kaname . His main drive at this moment of the story is revenge from whatever Kaname did to him in the past : his family , his brother , himself . But at the same time , Zero has this conflict of being in love with the enemy's " sister " . The one who is the love object of the same guy he hates more in the world . Making that same guy his love rival for the affect of that girl .

    So what happened ? Sara tried to make Zero kill Kaname saying this was his opportunity to get his revenge . That Kaname was weak .Telling if Zero killed Kaname , this was the only way to get the love of the girl he desired . Here was when Zero noticed if he killed Kaname ; the thing he will in reality gain would be the hate of that same girl . As she loves Kaname . This fact let Zero make a choice he disliked . To not kill Kaname . To drop from his mind to follow the suggestions Sara gave him .
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    Post by kanamekuranlover Fri Aug 03, 2012 2:42 pm

    mariangie wrote:Sara is the one manipulating Zero . Zero's personality doesn't allow him to manipulate most people . He can lie , but he has no art for making other people follow his suggestions easy . Zero is a piece in the V. K.'s Chess Game . Not an strategist .

    About why Zero didn't follow Sara's suggestions about killing Kaname .

    Zero did wanted to kill Kaname . His main drive at this moment of the story is revenge from whatever Kaname did to him in the past : his family , his brother , himself . But at the same time , Zero has this conflict of being in love with the enemy's " sister " . The one who is the love object of the same guy he hates more in the world . Making that same guy his love rival for the affect of that girl .

    So what happened ? Sara tried to make Zero kill Kaname saying this was his opportunity to get his revenge . That Kaname was weak .Telling if Zero killed Kaname , this was the only way to get the love of the girl he desired . Here was when Zero noticed if he killed Kaname ; the thing he will in reality gain would be the hate of that same girl . As she loves Kaname . This fact let Zero make a choice he disliked . To not kill Kaname . To drop from his mind to follow the suggestions Sara gave him .

    isn't it manipulating yuuki? scratch
    he in a sense is using her.

    see this pic
    https://2img.net/h/i120.photobucket.com/albums/o172/trinity1001/477961.jpg

    so kaname vs zero can be a possibility.maybe in end the final battle happens between kaname and zero and yuuki just have to choose a side.
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    Post by Bloodredhead Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:02 pm

    shizza24 wrote:I think manipulation is a tactic that is uncharacteristic of Zero. Even the slightest understanding of his character should be able to tell us that.

    I don't think Zero was influenced by Sara because Zero has shown resistance to PB manipulation and he was even able to defy Shizuka, his own master. So Sara's attempt to manipulate Zero was fruitless, IMO. Hence Sara's calling him her "incomplete" killing doll, because Zero refused to do her bidding.


    mariangie wrote:Sara is the one manipulating Zero . Zero's personality doesn't allow him to manipulate most people. He can lie , but he has no art for making other people follow his suggestions easy . Zero is a piece in the V. K.'s Chess Game . Not an strategist .

    About why Zero didn't follow Sara's suggestions about killing Kaname .

    Zero did wanted to kill Kaname . His main drive at this moment of the story is revenge from whatever Kaname did to him in the past : his family , his brother , himself . But at the same time , Zero has this conflict of being in love with the enemy's " sister " . The one who is the love object of the same guy he hates more in the world . Making that same guy his love rival for the affect of that girl .

    So what happened ? Sara tried to make Zero kill Kaname saying this was his opportunity to get his revenge . That Kaname was weak .Telling if Zero killed Kaname , this was the only way to get the love of the girl he desired . Here was when Zero noticed if he killed Kaname ; the thing he will in reality gain would be the hate of that same girl . As she loves Kaname . This fact let Zero make a choice he disliked . To not kill Kaname . To drop from his mind to follow the suggestions Sara gave him .

    I agree with shizza and maria, I don't think Zero is a person who manipulates. Its not a characteristic that goes with him as a character and personality wise.

    With how zero changed his mind over the past few chapters I think there are a couple of reasons. One of course being Yuuki, I doubt she would ever forgive Zero if he killed Kaname, and he know's this. It would effectively push Yuuki away from him forever IMO due to her feelings for Kaname. Two, before Zero had just been told Kaname was responsible for a lot of the pain he and his family went through (though whether this is true or not is debatable due to several things already discussed on the forum in other topic's), the emotions that were surging through him would naturally produce a angry reaction. He would have been hurt, upset, sad and angry, so he let his emotions very much rule then. It was an outburst, one I think we should expect when someone is told something hurtful and shocking to them. Thing is now Zero has had time to calm and collect himself. He's got a rein on his emotions after he parted from Yuuki when she went after Kaname. He's now thinking with his head more. Zero is a professional hunter, he can't let his emotions rule his job or responsibility and he know's this so I feel this is another reason he changed his standpoint. He had time to collect himself. I suppose though for a definite answer we will have to see how Zero is towards Kaname in the next few chapters.

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    Post by kanamekuranlover Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:31 pm

    Bloodredhead wrote:
    shizza24 wrote:I think manipulation is a tactic that is uncharacteristic of Zero. Even the slightest understanding of his character should be able to tell us that.

    I don't think Zero was influenced by Sara because Zero has shown resistance to PB manipulation and he was even able to defy Shizuka, his own master. So Sara's attempt to manipulate Zero was fruitless, IMO. Hence Sara's calling him her "incomplete" killing doll, because Zero refused to do her bidding.


    mariangie wrote:Sara is the one manipulating Zero . Zero's personality doesn't allow him to manipulate most people. He can lie , but he has no art for making other people follow his suggestions easy . Zero is a piece in the V. K.'s Chess Game . Not an strategist .

    About why Zero didn't follow Sara's suggestions about killing Kaname .

    Zero did wanted to kill Kaname . His main drive at this moment of the story is revenge from whatever Kaname did to him in the past : his family , his brother , himself . But at the same time , Zero has this conflict of being in love with the enemy's " sister " . The one who is the love object of the same guy he hates more in the world . Making that same guy his love rival for the affect of that girl .

    So what happened ? Sara tried to make Zero kill Kaname saying this was his opportunity to get his revenge . That Kaname was weak .Telling if Zero killed Kaname , this was the only way to get the love of the girl he desired . Here was when Zero noticed if he killed Kaname ; the thing he will in reality gain would be the hate of that same girl . As she loves Kaname . This fact let Zero make a choice he disliked . To not kill Kaname . To drop from his mind to follow the suggestions Sara gave him .

    I agree with shizza and maria, I don't think Zero is a person who manipulates. Its not a characteristic that goes with him as a character and personality wise.

    With how zero changed his mind over the past few chapters I think there are a couple of reasons. One of course being Yuuki, I doubt she would ever forgive Zero if he killed Kaname, and he know's this. It would effectively push Yuuki away from him forever IMO due to her feelings for Kaname. Two, before Zero had just been told Kaname was responsible for a lot of the pain he and his family went through (though whether this is true or not is debatable due to several things already discussed on the forum in other topic's), the emotions that were surging through him would naturally produce a angry reaction. He would have been hurt, upset, sad and angry, so he let his emotions very much rule then. It was an outburst, one I think we should expect when someone is told something hurtful and shocking to them. Thing is now Zero has had time to calm and collect himself. He's got a rein on his emotions after he parted from Yuuki when she went after Kaname. He's now thinking with his head more. Zero is a professional hunter, he can't let his emotions rule his job or responsibility and he know's this so I feel this is another reason he changed his standpoint. He had time to collect himself. I suppose though for a definite answer we will have to see how Zero is towards Kaname in the next few chapters.


    you seems to be zero biased because he clearly manipulated,sara,he knew about her evils though not fully still he gave her entry in the ha.he wanted revenge and for that he preserved a person which shouldn't be preserved and on yuuki's part,god knws what that girl thinks because she acts really stupid.
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    Post by Bloodredhead Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:43 pm

    kanamekuranlover wrote:
    you seems to be zero biased because he clearly manipulated,sara,he knew about her evils though not fully still he gave her entry in the ha.he wanted revenge and for that he preserved a person which shouldn't be preserved and on yuuki's part,god knws what that girl thinks because she acts really stupid.

    I might be as you say "Zero biased" but I do try my best to think with as little bias as I can when thinking and writing in debates. I could say your biased also, as in effect we all are when it comes to something we are passionate about and our own views. I'm just giving my own opinion and interpretation on the matter. You don't have to agree.

    Yes Zero did use Sara to his advantage in that instance, as do many people when an opportune moment arises. But one moment where he double crossed someone does not then I feel make him a manipulator. To me that's someone who does it a lot, constantly as a strategy, not on a one off basis. As really all the characters in some ways have used something to their advantage at least once in the manga, a person, a situation etc. You though pointed out the Yuuki instance, and that was the one I responded too in my previous reply. In that situation I don't feel he manipulated for the reasons I posted.
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    Post by Dragonsrose15 Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:28 pm

    Well, he manipulated Sara, yes, but he didn't manipulate Yuuki. Zeki is working together as allies at the moment and he wouldn't betray Yuuki like that. He knows just how important Kaname is to her. Zero used Sara to be able to restrain Kaname alongside Yuuki. Yes, he would love to kill him, but he's showing restraint due to Yuuki. If Zero would of wanted to kill Kaname, I'm sure he would of gone ahead and done it after taking Sara's blood, and would of been able to justify too, but he didn't. Zero only restrained Kaname along with Yuuki, because that's what they agreed on and what they're working on as a team.

    Either way, Zero also has enough tact to want to keep Kaname alive, because we still don't know exactly what Kaname's true intentions are. He may have some other operation going on that we don't know about.
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    Post by Shoujo-Zo18 Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:05 pm

    kanamekuranlover wrote:
    Bloodredhead wrote:
    shizza24 wrote:I think manipulation is a tactic that is uncharacteristic of Zero. Even the slightest understanding of his character should be able to tell us that.

    I don't think Zero was influenced by Sara because Zero has shown resistance to PB manipulation and he was even able to defy Shizuka, his own master. So Sara's attempt to manipulate Zero was fruitless, IMO. Hence Sara's calling him her "incomplete" killing doll, because Zero refused to do her bidding.


    mariangie wrote:Sara is the one manipulating Zero . Zero's personality doesn't allow him to manipulate most people. He can lie , but he has no art for making other people follow his suggestions easy . Zero is a piece in the V. K.'s Chess Game . Not an strategist .

    About why Zero didn't follow Sara's suggestions about killing Kaname .

    Zero did wanted to kill Kaname . His main drive at this moment of the story is revenge from whatever Kaname did to him in the past : his family , his brother , himself . But at the same time , Zero has this conflict of being in love with the enemy's " sister " . The one who is the love object of the same guy he hates more in the world . Making that same guy his love rival for the affect of that girl .

    So what happened ? Sara tried to make Zero kill Kaname saying this was his opportunity to get his revenge . That Kaname was weak .Telling if Zero killed Kaname , this was the only way to get the love of the girl he desired . Here was when Zero noticed if he killed Kaname ; the thing he will in reality gain would be the hate of that same girl . As she loves Kaname . This fact let Zero make a choice he disliked . To not kill Kaname . To drop from his mind to follow the suggestions Sara gave him .

    I agree with shizza and maria, I don't think Zero is a person who manipulates. Its not a characteristic that goes with him as a character and personality wise.

    With how zero changed his mind over the past few chapters I think there are a couple of reasons. One of course being Yuuki, I doubt she would ever forgive Zero if he killed Kaname, and he know's this. It would effectively push Yuuki away from him forever IMO due to her feelings for Kaname. Two, before Zero had just been told Kaname was responsible for a lot of the pain he and his family went through (though whether this is true or not is debatable due to several things already discussed on the forum in other topic's), the emotions that were surging through him would naturally produce a angry reaction. He would have been hurt, upset, sad and angry, so he let his emotions very much rule then. It was an outburst, one I think we should expect when someone is told something hurtful and shocking to them. Thing is now Zero has had time to calm and collect himself. He's got a rein on his emotions after he parted from Yuuki when she went after Kaname. He's now thinking with his head more. Zero is a professional hunter, he can't let his emotions rule his job or responsibility and he know's this so I feel this is another reason he changed his standpoint. He had time to collect himself. I suppose though for a definite answer we will have to see how Zero is towards Kaname in the next few chapters.


    you seems to be zero biased because he clearly manipulated,sara,he knew about her evils though not fully still he gave her entry in the ha.he wanted revenge and for that he preserved a person which shouldn't be preserved and on yuuki's part,god knws what that girl thinks because she acts really stupid.

    Really...he manipulated Sara? So.... he was the one that came to sara, and offered a deal? He just waltzed into her room at the academy and said "Sara sama... I want to make a deal with you... i will kill Kaname for you if you give me your power..." No, that's not even how it went down if you read the chapter where Zero even first saw Sara... Sara.... put it in Zero's head that Kaname was responsible for the events that led to the death of his family... this was HER tactic of manipulating Zero to bring out more hatred in Zero so that he would kill Kaname for her. I believe she said she would help him on HER condition that she protected him in the Hunters' association. The deal has already been completed.... Zero protected Sara, and he gained the power to defeat Kaname. But he never actually said to Sara that he would kill Kaname... Sara just assumed that, as did many fans because Zero's hate for Kaname is obvious. :/ Sara thought she was manipulating Zero but he knew what he wanted all along and the deal with Sara just made it easier... it's not his fault if she assumed he would kill Kaname, all he agreed to was to protect her.
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    Post by juliet Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:41 pm

    haha, i was reading all of your posts above and i came to the conclusion that in this manga nobody knows who manipulates who after all or indeed everyone is manipulating everyone. It does not seem to be an accordance even among fans that belong to the same ship...it's actually a bit complicated there i can say...

    anyway i shall state my opinion, even though many might be disagree; its natural.

    Well, he manipulated Sara, yes, but he didn't manipulate Yuuki.

    Sara clearly manipulated Zero to get her target that was Kaname;

    now was Zero's target initially Kaname to begin with? No, it was not, so my opinion is that he did not manipulate her, after all he had nothing to care about BEFORE listening from her that Kaname is supposedly or not supposedly (whatever that might be) guilty of his parent's death...so he fall for it and after that taking her blood or her power was the result of her manipulation to him> nothing more.

    In order to say that Zero manipulated Sara then we should say that he had an influence on her that led her in wanting to give him her blood for his cause; Zero had no such ambitions as controlling Sara it was obviously the other way around...


    zero did manipulated yuuki.in previous chapter he wanted to kill kaname and suddenly his objective got changed,to turn down kaname.zero is being a adorable since last few chapters.he is not the same vampire who wants to protect humans,he is for all about his revenge.and about yuuki anyone can easily manipulate her,she is stupid anyway.

    Did Zero manipulated Yuuki to get his target Kaname and be able to trap him in order to kill him?

    The word "manipulation" is too heavy for Zero's case, I suppose, because it means that he influenced psychologically Yuuki and controlled her behaviour towards a certain direction> he did not manipulate her, because Yuuki had already her as her own goal to catch Kaname and stop him. So regardless of what Zero would do, she would do her effort also.

    If Zero had achieved that effect on her through a psychological influence and pressure then this would be manipulation...but Zero just took advantage of her own decision to stop Kaname in order to get closer to Kaname himself, in case that he lied to her about his intentions. In case his intentions indeed changed after the battle that he had with Kaname, then they just joined forces. We do not know if he lied or not. Even though deceiving Yuuki and using her in this way would put him in the black list automatically. Would he risk that much? After all, his battle with Kaname proved to him that he can not kill kaname, perhaps after this, he also judged that his best option would be to let Yuuki handle and stop Kaname and see after that what is going to be.

    So he did not harm her, changed or influenced her behavior or anything of that sort. Used her desire to stop him, yes, but manipulation is a very heavy term to be used.

    Secondly you mention about Yuuki being easily manipulated, and i want to ask why?.. wasn't she there? how many chapters was she the witness to the fighting the two guys had?

    perhaps she also used Zero in her way because she knew that alone she could not stop/catch Kaname. And so he accepted his offers to go and get kaname...If Zero then tried to kill Kaname, then i believe that she would react but up to the point of getting Kaname she also needed for her own causes Zero's help...

    at least that's the way that i see it.




    juliet
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    Post by juliet Sat Aug 04, 2012 12:08 am


    you seems to be zero biased because he clearly manipulated,sara,he knew about her evils though not fully still he gave her entry in the ha.he wanted revenge and for that he preserved a person which shouldn't be preserved and on yuuki's part,god knws what that girl thinks because she acts really stupid.

    she is stupid anyway.

    secondly I would like to ask you to be polite in your expressions regarding the characters, BUT most importantly towards real people and members;

    we are all biased in a sense and so this not an argument that you can bring forth to support your point of view; in reality no one can have a fully objective opinion; we are humans and we all have our individual perceptions and preferences; it's a given, that's why we need to show respect to different opinions and state our arguments with evidence specially when they are negative towards a certain point. Thank you.

    nina
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    Post by nina Sat Aug 04, 2012 1:58 am

    mariangie wrote: Zero's personality doesn't allow him to manipulate most people . He can lie , but he has no art for making other people follow his suggestions easy . Zero is a piece in the V. K.'s Chess Game . Not an strategist .

    Agreed. Zero never gave me the feeling as being cut of for a strategic mind. He is a piece … a useful piece as Takuma underlined in this chapter lol.

    However IF he lied to Yuuki about his intentions regarding Kaname then this indicates manipulation because there would be the factor of the deception. It doesn’t have to be a great scale’s plan to be considered as manipulation … The deception and the lie would have made Zero’s behavior manipulative.

    Juliet wrote: The word "manipulation" is too heavy for Zero's case, I suppose, because it means that he influenced psychologically Yuuki and controlled her behaviour towards a certain direction> he did not manipulate her, because Yuuki had already her as her own goal to catch Kaname and stop him. So regardless of what Zero would do, she would do her effort also.

    Not necessarily … to influence someone towards a certain direction even if you have to gain something isn’t manipulation IF you are honest and letting the other party know your intentions and your gain from this.

    manipulation: shrewd or devious management especially for one’s own advantage.

    And that’s why you (and many of us) believe that >>

    Sara clearly manipulated Zero to get her target that was Kaname;

    Right. Why though? Isn’t cuz Sara manipulated him using deception?
    If not then there isn’t any manipulation from her because she was honest with him … she said clearly that she also wanted Kaname dead for her own reasons and closed a deal with him. If she didn’t deceive him -fueling his existent hatred for Kaname though (Zero wanted Kaname dead from the day one … it wasn’t Sara the one who created these feelings)- then where is her manipulation?

    Thus IMO it comes down to IF there was a lie i.e. deception or not in order to indicate manipulation in every case.

    For example let’s make the hypothesis that they (Zero and Yuuki) managed to capture Kaname and Zero afterwards had tried to kill him.
    Wouldn’t that have been a deception towards Yuuki since is crystal clear that Yuuki ONLY wants to capture him and not to kill him?
    Wouldn’t he have used/manipulated Yuuki and her powers to put down Kaname in order then to kill him?

    Ofc it didn’t happen that way… if not for any other reason just because Kaname released himself or cuz Yuuki wouldn’t let this to happen lol. However this wouldn’t unburden Zero from the deception hence the manipulation IF there was any.

    So we all have to see what Zero will do from now on or if there is gonna be an insight from his thoughts about the situation which will shed more light.

    I’m reading that isn’t in Zero’s character to do something like that blah blah blah … I bet that the same would support some fans if anyone had said awhile ago that Zero is lying. However the story showed that Zero IS capable to lie and moreover to lie for his own advantage … to lie to his superior at work … to lie hindering the investigation for the tablets … to lie in order to protect an evil PB who had turned HUMANS for PERSONAL reasons. << this is the ideal hunter? O.O

    Additionally … his action to drink from Sara … I remember that when some of us had supported that Zero will eventually drink Sara’s blood some fans refused strongly the possibility turning a blind eye to the hints, but this again happened … so I guess Zero did a lot of things recently that in the past would have seemed impossible for his character to do at least for some fans.

    The same goes for Kaname and many of us Yumes … sometime ago we couldn’t believe that Kaname would have left Yuuki … but he did it. Thus we cannot stick to formed opinions when the story develops differently.

    As for the statement

    Zero hasn't shown any intention to kill Kaname, as of now


    I won’t bring portions from the past cuz it will take me hours to gather ALL the lines that Zero declares his intention and wish to kill Kaname but only the most recent which btw it took place moments before the scenes of the last chapter!

    Zero: Bloody Rose suck ALL the blood out of that person
    http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-82-page-17.html

    Kaname: I won’t be killed by you
    http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-82-page-18.html

    http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-82-page-24.html

    Ignoring or turning a blind eye to the recent developments sticking to old notions doesn’t exactly indicate a good understanding of the characters either.

    We are all “biased” on a certain degree since we all have our likings but at least we should support our opinions with facts/scenes which are countering the provided arguments or else a plain subjective opinion doesn’t bear much validity.

    Ps. Who cares if Zero manipulated/lied to Sara??? Even if he had done that if it was for a good purpose he would have done great lol. Sara is a villain and she also wanted to manipulate Zero –something that she did on a certain degree- and moreover for evil stuffs.
    So if he lied to her; letting her believe that he’ll fulfill her evil goals whereas he had something else in mind, good for him … we shouldn’t criticize him but rather congratulate him hahaha


    Last edited by nina on Sat Aug 04, 2012 4:15 am; edited 1 time in total

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