What kind of feeling?

First topic message reminder :

In chapter 87, Yuuki said her feeling for Zero are real. But what do think what kind of feeling she means?

A rant :


There are 2 different online English scanlations available . Which differ basically in one phrase / sentence . This happens during Yuuki's inner dialogue of pages 38 - 40 .

S2S scan translation :

Yuuki : ( thinking ) " Why did it turn out to be like this ? The guy that I wanted to treasure . Fondness . This feeling is real too . It's hidden in me ... but I ... "

Whitelily scans translation :

Yuuki : ( thinking ) " Why did it end up like this between us ? The boy that I want to cherish ... I love him . this feeling is also real . It exists inside of me ... But ... I "

Japanese text :

"どうして　こんなことになつちゃったんだろう" " 大切にしたい男の子"

"好き" "この思いも本物在処は私の中...."

"でも　　私は－－－"

The bolded word / phrase is the same one that appears on top of Zeki's kiss in every version .

" 好き " is the word for " suki " . No discussion here . This is the only word translated dramatically different on both versions .

The rest of the words in each translation are more or less equivalent . Look different only because of translator's variants on wording .

Spoiler:

But my questions are :

Why translate " SUKI " as " I love him " instead of " I like him " / " Fondness" ?

Why Hino used " SUKI " instead of " AISHITERU " ?


" SUKI " is more commonly used in non - romantic situations . The " I like X thing / person . " Or in platonic love . "AISHITERU " is more used when romantic love is implied . ( As " AI " is the word for romantic love . ) If Hino had the intention to prove Yuuki now sees and loves Zero as a man . Hino could had used a more specific phrase / word as "AISHITERU " ' the usual words in Japanese for " I love you " or a similar word with the word " AI " on it .

But this time I want to see people opinion . Give your reasons why to use the " I love him " version instead of the " I like him / Fondness " one .

On the page where she says she loves him, read the bottom of the bottom left panel, the translator explains her/him self why he/she used it.

mariangie wrote:But this time I want to see people opinion . Give your reasons why to use the " I love him " version instead of the " I like him / Fondness " one .

What do you mean? Our reasons, or translation teams' reason?

http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/87/40

It's true, as @RIchard says, we can read here that "Suki can mean like or love, but the scene in context is romantic, hence "love" is used instead of "like", with either word the implication is romantic". @mariangie, this seems to be a good counter-argument from the translator, that is, for him/her Suki is totally a romantic word, while you are stating the opposite.
That's clearly not the opinion of other translation teams, that translated the word with "Fondness" or "Cherish". So, we have two options:

- Hino willingly used an ambiguous word, so that this may be the true start of Yuuki's change of mind (that will require a lot of chapters, due to the BUT in the end of the sentence
- Each translation team took the freedom to translate the word according to how they interpreted the scene - still, if "Suki" means "Like" in the exact Japanese sentence, you have to translate it with "like" for now, even if the two of them are embracing. Because, please - you have to rely upon sintax, not upon what's happening =_= how can you foresee what's really going to happen and if she really had romantic intentions?

I'm asking to a friend who knows Japanese and knows nothing about VK. He's telling me that in that very sentence "Suki" doesn't seem to have any romantic implication, even though he says that Japanese is based upon a lot od shades. Still, one team decided to give an exact opposite opinion. Why?

I'd like to know what is the Japanese word that Yuuki has been using to describe his feelings for Zero until now (in the first arc there is more than one scene in which she says she cherishes him) and, if the word was really "SUKI", why a simple embrace should change abruptly her meaning.

Duskola wrote: I'm asking to a friend who knows Japanese and knows nothing about VK. He's telling me that in that very sentence "Suki" doesn't seem to have any romantic implication, even though he says that Japanese is based upon a lot od shades. Still, one team decided to give an exact opposite opinion. Why?

I’m not gonna comment on the work of the scanlation’s teams – either way its known that the scanlations online contain mistakes and this is natural and expected, and secondly I do not know Japanese- but what everyone has to know is that the team which decided to interpret the scene and use the word “love” is a group of known, active in forums, Zekis’ fans.

Another thing that one can consider is that all the other sources (the Chinese translation, Senby’s first translation, plus S2s group) have used words which the interpretation of the scene i.e. if it has romantic implications or not, is left to the reader.

Interpreting a scene in an absolute way i.e. guiding the reader the moment that the script itself inserts the uncertainty (>>f.e. if they kissed or not is open or the phrase “But I…”) I do not know how much professional it is or one can at least question the objectivity since is based on an interpretation…

As far as I know the word “suki” doesn’t indicate romance necessarily… so even in this case IMO someone must know the continuation in order to draw absolute conclusions.

The good thing is that we have multiple sources for the translation hence we’re able to compare and choose; at least until the official one will be available.

Anyone can draw its own conclusions…

@nina:
I was commenting the very same thing with my friend in this very moment - he knows but the very first chapters of VK - and even though he admits that it's very hard to translate some words without contextualizing, he told me that Japanese are really "shy" when it comes to express their own feelings. So, he told me that if Yuuki has always expressed her love for Kaname with words like "AISHITERU" or similar for so many chapters, it's very out of context to state that "SUKI" means here something more than affection - it may at least mean "liking more than a friend", "liking very much", "have a crush", but nothing more.

Interpreting a scene in an absolute way i.e. guiding the reader the moment that the script itself inserts the uncertainty (>>f.e. if they kissed or not is open or the phrase “But I…”) I do not know how much professional it is or one can at least question the objectivity since is based on an interpretation…

Yes, and this is why I was absolutely shocked when I read the note. I mean, something like:

"SUKI may mean both like and love - it's usually used without romantic meaning, but it can gain this meaning in some context, so I'm not sure about how it can be correctly translated here"

and translating the sentence with "I LIKE HIM" would have been far more honest. How can you translate a sentence out of the context of the story only because you see the two of them embracing? Like it's the first time Yuuki talks about her feelings, and embraces Zero, and the first time Zero KISSES her... And I guess that going back to the past panels, Yuuki used the word SUKI there, too. So, the translation here is different simply because they are dancing and embracing? Oh my.

but what everyone has to know is that the team which decided to interpret the scene and use the word “love” is a group of known, active in forums, Zekis’ fans

I had suspected this myself, as it's not the first time the translations made by this group are different and raised me some doubts - because they are sometimes totally different, in sense and logic, from the translations found elsewhere - AND obviously from the official translations. And I'm with you totally:

Interpreting a scene in an absolute way i.e. guiding the reader the moment that the script itself inserts the uncertainty (>>f.e. if they kissed or not is open or the phrase “But I…”) I do not know how much professional it is or one can at least question the objectivity since is based on an interpretation…

Because the note not only gives a completely personal interpretation of the scene, but states clarily that every meaning of the word SUKI in Japanese is romantic >> "with either word - like or love - the implication is romantic" here

O_______________________________O

But my friend - that collaborates with some fansub forums for Japanese dramas - is also saying that this kind of behavior is common between translation teams - it's very difficult to find totally objective translators.



EDIT: In any case. If you translate SUKI with LOVE and are absolutely sure, why feeling the need to write a note to state "I translated this with love and I'm sure we're talking about love here"? Is he/she afraid of other Japanese-expert readers and translators? If he/she was so sure, he/she could simply avoid the note.

You took the note in the wrong way, they were not saying that the word it's self is only meant as romantic, what they are saying is the context of the word in that situation is romantic, mainly yuuki and zero kissing each other is what makes it mean romantic, in a situation like this no matter what word you use will imply the same thing rather it be love/like/cherish and so on.

As fir why they would add it, cause they knew it could be taken in different context so they explained before why they chose the context they did. I don't speak or read Japanese my self but from what I hear it is a hard language and the meaning of a word can change depending on the other words around it or in the context it is used to describe. Then again all this is 2nd hand knowledge so I cant say for sure my self.

Talk to your friend again and describe to him that the scene the text involves the man and the women kissing then ask him what it means, I am sure he will give you a different answer. You should never go on words alone when there are pictures to back it up.

Any phrase you use can have it's meanings changed when added to the right imagery.

the feeling is romantic.i am definitely not getting any siblings vibes here.you don't kiss your brother if your feelings are siblings type.so sibling thing was never there.if she thinks him as a friend and then she is kissing him then she definitely don't deserve any of these guys.so only thing left is romantic love for zero.

i think hino is trying to say that true love remains same even if it goes far away from you like yuuki left with kaname but it didn't erased their feelings and now when they reunited they are all ready to loose to their passions.the only victim here is kaname.kaname saw in her bloodt his passion and decided to let himself get killed by yuuki so that he doesn't become an obstacle in zeki.


this is the only explanation i am getting with this stupid chapter.

juliet wrote:

also if zero was her hero from beginning for her useless heroine yuuki,then i must say hino has no writing skills.i can say stephanie meyer proved herself better.atleast in twilight,we are sure of character's feelings.here one day oh zero,next day oh kaname,other day i want to be alone,another day its again oh kaname.to be frank it has become sick for both fandoms.and there are characters which are doing nothing but sitting and having tea.where is seiren?why yuuki didn't asked her about kaname's plans?why aidou don't ask rukain for the reason of dono's death?
so many cheap plot holes.

that right now exist without reason, i agree...all secondary characters are back now, they should be asked "what's the deal? what's the game"? that way a normal character looking for answer, perhaps Zero, not Yuuki alone would progress.

To not risk her surprise Hino could perhaps not show the answers but the progress should be obvious.

The lack of these answers or lack of effort to get them, makes the plot seem unnatural and very technically plotted to keep readers in the dark. The same as the trolling plan; a set up device more than a real necessity of development of feelings;

these gaps exists in the plot irrelevant to the end. Hino should have progressed smoother by now..

@ Lucy have you doubled posted? i need to erase the one answer...please avoid doing so...

this is my comp playing with me.sry i will keep that in mind.

lucykaede wrote:

juliet wrote:

also if zero was her hero from beginning for her useless heroine yuuki,then i must say hino has no writing skills.i can say stephanie meyer proved herself better.atleast in twilight,we are sure of character's feelings.here one day oh zero,next day oh kaname,other day i want to be alone,another day its again oh kaname.to be frank it has become sick for both fandoms.and there are characters which are doing nothing but sitting and having tea.where is seiren?why yuuki didn't asked her about kaname's plans?why aidou don't ask rukain for the reason of dono's death?
so many cheap plot holes.

that right now exist without reason, i agree...all secondary characters are back now, they should be asked "what's the deal? what's the game"? that way a normal character looking for answer, perhaps Zero, not Yuuki alone would progress.

To not risk her surprise Hino could perhaps not show the answers but the progress should be obvious.

The lack of these answers or lack of effort to get them, makes the plot seem unnatural and very technically plotted to keep readers in the dark. The same as the trolling plan; a set up device more than a real necessity of development of feelings;

these gaps exists in the plot irrelevant to the end. Hino should have progressed smoother by now..

@ Lucy have you doubled posted? i need to erase the one answer...please avoid doing so...

yes exactly.all secondary characters are back and they are just sitting there doing nothing.if yuuki makes an army then it will be easy to stop or kill whatever she wants to do.i am very much disappointed by the development and sudden development of zeki.yuuki grew love feelings for zero in one chapter.even bella took three books to discover that.i guess yuuki has grown very intelligent in discovering her feelings.lol.

@okay my mistake, i am in hurry and totally confused the threads...

can you please re-write it to the correct thread? I shall return to erase it later...thanks.

juliet wrote:

lucykaede wrote:

juliet wrote:

that right now exist without reason, i agree...all secondary characters are back now, they should be asked "what's the deal? what's the game"? that way a normal character looking for answer, perhaps Zero, not Yuuki alone would progress.

To not risk her surprise Hino could perhaps not show the answers but the progress should be obvious.

The lack of these answers or lack of effort to get them, makes the plot seem unnatural and very technically plotted to keep readers in the dark. The same as the trolling plan; a set up device more than a real necessity of development of feelings;

these gaps exists in the plot irrelevant to the end. Hino should have progressed smoother by now..

@ Lucy have you doubled posted? i need to erase the one answer...please avoid doing so...

yes exactly.all secondary characters are back and they are just sitting there doing nothing.if yuuki makes an army then it will be easy to stop or kill whatever she wants to do.i am very much disappointed by the development and sudden development of zeki.yuuki grew love feelings for zero in one chapter.even bella took three books to discover that.i guess yuuki has grown very intelligent in discovering her feelings.lol.

@okay my mistake, i am in hurry and totally confused the threads...

can you please re-write it to the correct thread? I shall return to erase it later...thanks.

sry i got confused in threads.my mistake.forgive me.

RIchard wrote:You took the note in the wrong way, they were not saying that the word it's self is only meant as romantic, what they are saying is the context of the word in that situation is romantic, mainly yuuki and zero kissing each other is what makes it mean romantic, in a situation like this no matter what word you use will imply the same thing rather it be love/like/cherish and so on.

As fir why they would add it, cause they knew it could be taken in different context so they explained before why they chose the context they did. I don't speak or read Japanese my self but from what I hear it is a hard language and the meaning of a word can change depending on the other words around it or in the context it is used to describe. Then again all this is 2nd hand knowledge so I cant say for sure my self.

Talk to your friend again and describe to him that the scene the text involves the man and the women kissing then ask him what it means, I am sure he will give you a different answer. You should never go on words alone when there are pictures to back it up.

Any phrase you use can have it's meanings changed when added to the right imagery.

RIchard, you are right when you say that Japanese is a hard language with any sort of different shades in a single sentence, and that's exactly what my friend said when I wrote him the whole kanji sequence. That's why, after his first "non-romantic" interpretation, I explained him the whole scene and plot (spoilering a bit) and he didn't take back his interpretation, he only added that the sentence may be at least ambiguous. So, for him, the note is too "sure" and "absolute", even if it simply tries and contextualize a translation. I mean: we haven't seen her lips touching yet (as we have seen for Yume in lot of ways elsewhere). We still don't know the following words of "BUT...". Why the other translation teams, for example, didn't feel the need to state the opposite?

"Suki can be used in this context to express some romantic feelings, but we chose to translate this with "cherish" or "fondness" in any case".

If there truly is a matter of ambiguity in the sentence - you are right, we don't know Japanese, but this matter is very important and should be explained in every translation.

And on top of that, translating this with "like" doesn't mean at all that Yuuki's feelings are not beginning to change or that the scene is less "romantic", so I can't understand the forcing. If I was a Zeki, I would have preferred the "like" because it's more consistent both with the sintax and the current plot - and here is the reference to Japanese culture my friend gave me. He asked me what words did Yuuki use to express her feelings for Kaname before, because if she truly used words with "AI", above all "AISHITERU", it's very hard that Hino could take them back with a simple "SUKI" because in Japanese culture is very hard to express one's feelings without being polite - with absolute open words. AND taking them back after a single chapter in which Yuuki said "I belong to Kaname" is absolutely out of discussion. So, Hino would not build only a frivolous character, but also a girl completely out from the habits of Japanese culture.

So, as you say, even in Japanese sintax everything is still open

I remember Aidou telling Kaname that he liked "suki" him when they were kids.

Fine of Fate wrote:I remember Aidou telling Kaname that he liked "suki" him when they were kids.

haha naughty Aido...LOL

@ Lucy i will refrain from erasing the posts since the discussion progresses and since we sorted it out (i hate deleting posts anyway, sorry for the trouble caused...)

juliet wrote:

Fine of Fate wrote:I remember Aidou telling Kaname that he liked "suki" him when they were kids.

haha naughty Aido...LOL

@ Lucy i will refrain from erasing the posts since the discussion progresses and since we sorted it out (i hate deleting posts anyway, sorry for the trouble caused...)

don't be sry at all,you are moderator.you know better which things to be allowed and which to be not.

Oh, well. I don't believe I'm doing this for real. But I went and looked for some explanation on Google so that I can state better what my friend wanted to mean.

http://japanese.about.com/library/weekly/aa021101a.htm

Here you can read exactly the reason why, if Yuuki has ever referred to kaname with "Aishiteru" or "Ai" - that is, "love" - is very hard for her to take back those words.

AND here is stated, too, that Japanese usually don't put their feelings into words, but, if they want to use SUKI to express love, they use:

好きです Suki desu
好きだ Suki da
好きだよ Suki dayo (male speech)
好きよ Suki yo (female speech)

"If you like somebody or something very much, "dai (literally means, big)" can be added as the prefix, and you can say "daisuki desu 大好きです."

So, it seems to me that we have only one word in the sentence: "好き" , with no prefixes and suffixes (please correct me @mariangie if I'm wrong - I'm fond of Japanese culture and language but I'm absolutely not an expert, especially as regards the language).
And as @Fine of Fate stated out, Aido refers to Kaname with "好き", too?

Anyone who can tell me if Yuuki ever used:

愛
愛しています
愛してる

and so on?

Duskola wrote:And on top of that, translating this with "like" doesn't mean at all that Yuuki's feelings are not beginning to change or that the scene is less "romantic", so I can't understand the forcing. If I was a Zeki, I would have preferred the "like" because it's more consistent both with the sintax and the current plot - and here is the reference to Japanese culture my friend gave me. He asked me what words did Yuuki use to express her feelings for Kaname before, because if she truly used words with "AI", above all "AISHITERU", it's very hard that Hino could take them back with a simple "SUKI" because in Japanese culture is very hard to express one's feelings without being polite - with absolute open words. AND taking them back after a single chapter in which Yuuki said "I belong to Kaname" is absolutely out of discussion. So, Hino would not build only a frivolous character, but also a girl completely out from the habits of Japanese culture.

So, as you say, even in Japanese sintax everything is still open

I found a page on yahoo answers saying that ai even thought does mean love is rarly used in japan and instead it is common practice to use suki dasu, I would post the link but I cant cause it hasn't been 7 days yet.

This just confuses me more and more, no one is going to accepting yuukis feelings for 1 side or the other till she ties one of them to a bed.

This is the problem with reading a story wrote in another language, not every thing can be transferred over.

@RIchard: we probably posted at the same time, maybe it's the same link I wrote now ;)


EDIT: To be absolutely objective, I have to say that prefixes and suffixes can also be implied, so it may be true that the sentence in the context can mean "I love you". That's why we need to know if Yuuki ever used some word with "AI" to express her feelings, because if this is the real twist in the story in which she understands her true feelings, it seems to me very strange that she leaves something implied in the sentence - in the end, it's her POV and nobody can hear her thoughts, so she may simply use a more explicit sentence - especially if she used some sentence of this kind to describe her feelings for Kaname.

This is the problem with reading a story wrote in another language, not every thing can be transferred over.

You are right here ;) that's why it's so important to show the ambiguities.

But it's not the fact to accept Yuuki's feelings - they must be accepted for the both of them. So here is my other question: why it's so important, when one states that she loves Zero, to absolutely deny her love for Kaname?
And if she simply loves the both of them?

I actually have never doubted that yuuki loves them both, only thing is the type of love.
IMO yuukis love for kaname started out as
admiration [for the man who saved her life],
after that it became fondness [For a person that was always there]
Then it became forbidden fruit [A man she could never be with]
Then after she turned and got her memories from childhood it became affection [A man she thought she could never have was hers all along]
This is the part where most people would disagree with me I believe.
At the point she lived alone with kaname it became sibling/parental [a man by her side teaching her how to live.]
The mansion is what killed the yumi romance in my eyes, being away from zero makes her feelings grow and being with kaname shows that he is not the unattainable person that drove the start of the yuumi romance. Not to mention kaname needing to teach her how to live as a vampire going as far as punishing her when she makes mistakes. This yells out sibling/parental love to me. To top it all off the only kiss yuuki ever initiated was to the check [talking about when they were in the mansion]. I am not asking you to agree with my take on this part, just trying to explain it. Also why is yuuki so mean? After she finds out that kaname is the ancestor she says she wont call him onni anymore, just kaname, but she still calls him it up till he leaves.

Ps is there a topic about aido's dads death? I just had a thought and I dont want to take this topic off course.

its romantic feeling,get over it already.jeez why to use suffix to find it out.you don't say i love you and kiss a guy if you don't love him romantically.

@RIchard, I understand your view - even if I don't share it as regards Yuuki's feelings for Kaname - I think and keep thinking there's a big love between them and that this love can't be erased but by something very serious - and I really can't see - for now - how "the mansion" could have killed it.

RIchard wrote:Not to mention kaname needing to teach her how to live as a vampire going as far as punishing her when she makes mistakes.

Kaname is trying to protect her, that's why he has conversations with Rido about binding her or letting her free. Their parents were trying to protect her too, by locking her and keeping her existence secret to everyone. Yuuki is in danger - for what reason, we don't know yet - and what Kaname's done until now is not only his duty as a king - as you wrote elsewhere - but there's also some secret regarding Yuuki that has yet to be discovered. At first he thought that he could keep her besides him, then he decided to let her use Artemis and to let her go - and the final proof of the fact that he let her totally free to decide her path is the very fact that he abandoned her, letting her free to do whatever she wants ("Don't hesitate").

So, I may think that Yuuki's feelings for Zero are more than friendly (I've always thought this, anyway). I may think this because I identify myself in Yuuki very much and I am also capable of BIG feelings, so I understand her POV. But I've no proof for now that her love for Kaname is gone - that's why we are discussing about "May a simple ball, or a mansion, let her change her mind?" or about "Suki" and so on. If the facts were plain, there would be no need to debate I don't think we are a bunch of stubborn people who simply don't want to see "the truth". If you want to divide us between Yume and Zeki you can do it - I'm not fighting for anything else than what I consider to be the beauty and originality of the story, anyway.

The simple fact that Yuuki wants to stop and save Kaname is a big proof that Kaname is important to her. May she change her mind at Zero's advantage? Maybe. But - as I keep saying - DUE TO HOW HINO DEVELOPED THE STORY UNTIL NOW - and I know you've seen a different development, so I keep saying this is MY opinion - we will need a lot of chapters to see this twist - OR a very big surprise that can make Yuuki detach forever from Kaname.

So, either she has romantic feelings in this scene or not, until we don't see a real CUT - until Yuuki simply forget Kaname's importance - or, I explain better, until Hino WRITES this clearly - well, I would take the story as it is. It's not a matter of interpretation for me, it's a matter of taking every sentence and panel "as is".

And the story as it is, for me, is that she loves Kaname, and that she also has strong feelings for Zero - feelings that, for now, whatever they are, don't erase her love for Kaname. (That BUT)

We will see in the next chapters what will be the consequence of that "BUT".

Sorry if it seemed I was splitting up the fans into yumi and zeki, all I meant by using it was to refer to the couples and there supporting fandoms instead of typing out the names all the way.
But about taking the sentence and panel "as is" U cant really do that cause your "as is" is different every ones is. It is not realy my intent to change anyone else s opinion on the story but only to explain my own interpretation of the VK world and to see if anyone else s interpretations of the world can further complete my own..

In the end it is best just to wait and see what plays out. So far I am predicting that the but will most likly be some thing like but it will never work cause I belong to kaname, or it wont work cause I am a pb/vampire. At least if you go on the past history of yuuki. We might even see a but all I can ever do is hurt him. I curious to see just how far off I am off on this. WHy do I have ot wait a month

Thought of another but
yuuki "But ... I have to stop kaname before anything else."

First:The feelings he have for her ARE REAL!
She met him after his family were attacked by a vampire pureblood, Yuuki took care of him with all her warm heart and she also always checked if he was okay,and as the years passed by his feelings were growing bigger,this is common on shoujo manga,He also loved her after she transformed into vampire.
Kaname realized that and used zero to protect her until he was planning his next moves to kill Rido Kuran.
When he was freed from Rido,he took Yuuki away to the house she was born and after that they've spent years there^^

for me, zero's feelings for yuuki are as real as it gets. he loves her, and has for a very long time.

yuuki loves him, but in a sibling way. if you pay close attention to the story and keep an open mind, you'll notice that in every way that yuuki has treated him, it has been as an "older" caring/loving sister. she worries for him, wants him to be happy, etc...

in that scene she is acknowledging how she feels about him. what it all amounts too. but she doesn't love him like he loves her. she knew that, and that's one reason why she removed the memories of her from him. she's giving him a chance to move foreward instead of living the past. he always said that kaname was the one for her, and both zero and yuuki know that being together could not be.....another reason why zero is always telling what an idiot she is when she gets all nostalgic about what they had.

yuuki was reminiscing, and that is imo what this scene was about.

Now that chapter 91 is out
I'm certain that the man Yuuki has chosen to be her husband and lover is Kaname

LOVE!!! PLEAS! PLEAS!PLEAS! BE LOVE!!!... sorry... I'm a big Zeki fan....

I've always thought this for a long time. There is the type of love that you feel for a brotherly type figure, then there's the love that you feel for someone you are attracted too. I think the brotherly type love, like the "I married my best friend" love, is what Yuki feels for Zero.