Kaname what type of character is he?

So I found this site randomly and found this I belive that it is the perfect description for kaname.

Magnificent b****** The following is a copy and paste from the link to the left.
If there was ever a character that deserved to be called “Magnificent”, that character is the Magnificent b******. The Magnificent b****** is what happens when you combine The Chessmaster, The Trickster, and the Manipulative b******: bold, charismatic, independent, and audacious. Capturing the audience with his charisma, incredible intellect, mastery of manipulation, and boldness of action, this character is a show-stealer, demanding your reverence at every turn. The term "Magnificent b******" was first used by General Patton in reference to Erwin Rommel in the film Patton, upon realizing that he was facing a man who literally wrote the book on deceptive warfare. It acquired its current meaning courtesy of Lionel Luthor of Smallville, who was given this nickname by the Television Without Pity boards.
So what makes a character a Magnificent b******?
Let's break it down:
He is brilliant and utterly devious, to an almost breathtaking, mind-boggling degree. Call it genius, call it virtual omniscience, but he always seems to know what everyone else is planning at any given moment, and exactly how to arrange the game so he wins even when he is defeated. Didn't See That Coming doesn't derail him; he can always adapt.
He is a smooth operator. He always knows exactly what to say to position you where he wants you, always has a backup strategy and never loses his cool. Even if on the remote chance something happens that wasn't in his plans, you'd never know it from his actions.
He has a goal, he's not going to stop until he's completed it, whatever it is. To that end he will do almost anything. He'll move heaven and hell. Despite his choice of tactics, he is rarely if ever pointlessly cruel, and has a reason for everything he does.
He is charismatic, often charming, his personality like a physical force. People tend to like him, sometimes even when they know he isn't on their side, and even those who hate his guts have to admit respect. Even when at his darkest, he has traits which one can't help but admire.

There is also insight to the chess game and types of players at This Link.

@ Richard i think the way you have described kaname is a way which violates the rules of the forum. you are not allowed to describe a character by referring to him as a b******. this thread should be closed,

I asked before I posted, did you actually read any of it before posting or just post based on the one word alone?

@ Conrad this is a type of character actually, Richard displayed a profile (kind of) that can be debated, discussed or challenged.

Do you view or believe that this type of character matches or could match Kaname's profile? it's a debate, not a characterization that is attributed to Kaname, thus expressed as a question.

But of course one could question is Kaname a villain character? how is that? the script has not finished yet, so this can not stand as a fact neither way. Right?

I always looked at kaname as more of an anti-hero then a villain, in many ways anti-heros are better then normal heros, just look at vk right now, even if it was not kaname but another vampire with the same abilitys yuki would still be unable to stop him other then turning him human, reason why is yuki doesn't want to kill and so cant win. Now if it was kaname hunting down another vampire wanting to stop him no matter what then this chase would have been over back where aidos dad died.

@juliet sorry I kinda cut off the bottom part of the profile cause I thought it was to long, plus I forgot to ask for every ones else opinion at the bottom.

well...if you see kaname's actions...he killed aidou's father infront of yuki, eat yuki's brother, murder indirectly zero's parents...
In all stories are villains and heroes/heroines...and I don't see kaname in heroes side...

well...if you see kaname's actions...he killed aidou's father infront of yuki, eat yuki's brother, murder indirectly zero's parents...
In all stories are villains and heroes/heroines...and I don't see kaname in heroes side...

ate Yuuki's brother? how much of the manga have you read or you understood? sorry to put it that way, but that's what reflected.

Killed Zero's parents? this is not back up by the script, but this is a long way back, you need to know certain facts to get the contradiction there and know why it does not stand that much.

You are so blinded that you do not remember how these things happened? do you?

Kaname's intention can only be verified to the end, where his actions will be either condemned or justified. Right now, i personally can not place judgement to what kind of hero he is...

so all these are a real question could he be the villain or anti-hero or the hero after all?

i am only saying that is risky to judge him beforehand, all we can do is either believe him or not, but certainly not try to label him in advance...

thus i see all these as questions that can not reach an answer before the grand final. Until then it's all to personal views and believes and certain arguements that could be debated on their own, but not enough to show the final picture...but of course this makes little sense to the haters...

but go on display your hate and your bias as much as you want, let it glow...trying to resist or shot down such an attempt would be foolish, why to lose such an opportunity dear?

msa-x wrote:well...if you see kaname's actions...he killed aidou's father infront of yuki, eat yuki's brother, murder indirectly zero's parents...
In all stories are villains and heroes/heroines...and I don't see kaname in heroes side...

mostly true but kaname didn't kill yukis brother, rido did. You should look up the term anti-hero and maybe watch hellsing and codebreaker, the stars of those are both anti-heros, basically fighting evil methods with evil methods. You will notice some thing else if you do watch them as well, in all 3 [HS,CB,VK] the anti hero admits that he is evil/tainted.

The part about zero's family is still up in the air, kaname did say it, but it is possible he said it to get yuki and zero to act in a certain way.

juliet wrote:

well...if you see kaname's actions...he killed aidou's father infront of yuki,eat yuki's brother, murder indirectly zero's parents...
In all stories are villains and heroes/heroines...and I don't see kaname in heroes side...

ate Yuuki's brother? how much of the manga have you read or you understood? sorry to put it that way, but that's what reflected.

Killed Zero's parents? this is not back up by the script, but this is a long way back, you need to know certain facts to get the contradiction there and know why it does not stand that much.

You are so blinded that you do not remember how these things happened? do you?

Kaname's intention can only be verified to the end, where his actions will be either condemned or justified. Right now, i personally can not place judgement to what kind of hero he is...

so all these are a real question could he be the villain or anti-hero or the hero after all?

i am only saying that is risky to judge him beforehand, all we can do is either believe him or not, but certainly not try to label him in advance...

thus i see all these as questions that can not reach an answer before the grand final. Until then it's all to personal views and believes and certain arguements that could be debated on their own, but not enough to show the final picture...but of course this makes little sense to the haters...

but go on display your hate and your bias as much as you want, let it glow...trying to resist or shot down such an attempt would be foolish, why to lose such an opportunity dear?

Co-sign! We should pay them to demonstrate their biased and blind hatred!
Having
Anger
Towards
Everyone
Reaching
Success

“Greatness inspires envy, envy engenders spite, spite spawns lies.”
J.K. Rowling

Ah words of wisdom!

msa-x wrote:well...if you see kaname's actions...he killed aidou's father infront of yuki, eat yuki's brother, murder indirectly zero's parents...
In all stories are villains and heroes/heroines...and I don't see kaname in heroes side...

when some readers do not throughfuly read the manga i.e they not grapsing a mere meaning, they're saying anomalies like you did.

@juliet - let's be serious here; some judged kaname before he leaving yuuki and beheaded aidou-dono; some wished for his death the moment yuuki left with him. for the majority of them (zekis) he was labeled a b****** even from the first arc.
Trying to make the blind to see, the deaf the hear and the mute to talk is impossible.

On a personal note - I am agaist this topic because this in my pov was especially created by a zeki to label / to call kaname a b******.

aya-chan wrote:

msa-x wrote:well...if you see kaname's actions...he killed aidou's father infront of yuki, eat yuki's brother, murder indirectly zero's parents...
In all stories are villains and heroes/heroines...and I don't see kaname in heroes side...

when some readers do not throughfuly read the manga i.e they not grapsing a mere meaning, they're saying anomalies like you did.

@juliet - let's be serious here; some judged kaname before he leaving yuuki and beheaded aidou-dono; some wished for his death the moment yuuki left with him. for the majority of them (zekis) he was labeled a b****** even from the first arc.
Trying to make the blind to see, the deaf the hear and the mute to talk is impossible.

On a personal note - I am agaist this topic because this in my pov was especially created by a zeki to label / to call kaname a b******.

Agreed ... the motives are transparent yet isn't fun to expose them?
The truth has nothing to fear of a second rate propaganda ... history has proven that many many times and history is written by the winners not the losers

Guys you're so crazy people xD I didn't swear Kaname as a b******. I've only said that I don't see kaname as a heroe in this story.
Take it easy guys xD
I'm not going to argue with you, Hino will show us the real final in a few months U___U

msa-x wrote:Guys you're so crazy people xD I didn't swear Kaname as a b******. I've only said that I don't see kaname as a heroe in this story.
Take it easy guys xD
I'm not going to argue with you, Hino will show us the real final in a few months U___U

you must be joking right? we never accused you of calling Kaname b******, the opposition was due to things that you pass as facts whereas they are not valid. Understanding the history of the characters wrong can not help you to reach safe conclusion.

as for other parts of my post, the story is not completed, you are welcome as your personal opinion not to see Kaname as the hero or not the hero, no one is going to argue on that...but facts are facts, or have not been confirmed by the script, how can you reach a judgement that way?

@juliet -

On a personal note - I am agaist this topic because this in my pov was especially created by a zeki to label / to call kaname a b******.

Aya, I agree with you about Kaname seen as the villain even when he saved Zero's butt. If this "villain" did not exist, neither would Zero, neither Yuuki. With Rido on top, Sara, Shizuka and Ichiou, I am sure that VK would have been a far better place and humanity much safer. Oh and the council, let me see who else is missing

So it's obvious that such attempts that are so easily burnt on their own and without much help. It just takes a little memory and sense of humour...

Even if Hino presents Kaname as a villain to the end, nothing justifies preoccupied opinions...exactly because they are stated beforehand and even more as facts, not even as questions or doubts.

Even so since i see that the title of the thread creates confusion I shall change it, so more creative ideas perhaps can fall to the table...

I did not post this just to call kaname a b******, b****** just happen to be in the name of the character type I found [I would have used any name I found as long as the descrpition match even if it was purple banana lollipop] and I was afraid people would react just this way which is why I asked before posting. I have yet to see any of you to post on the actual topic subject as well, please I did not make this for a zeki yume fight. I really believed that this character typed matched kaname to a T. Also the other info on the chest master and the trickster and so on might be able to give us insight to other characters.

#juliet ty for changing the topic name, this one will work a lot better then the original.

@ Richard
yes I read the whole thing you posted and since you have the permission feel free to go ahead.

as I see it, it's just another attempt to badmouth kaname. it's just my own opinion.

@ Juliet
Thank you for changing the title of the thread.

Conrad you are welcome..

by the way who is the character at your profile? it seems very Kaname-like..hm...

Richard which good heroes do you know under the category "Magnificent b******"? Let's explore the other way around.

Kaname is a hero yet he turned into the antagonist because he needed to fulfill his purpose/goal, but does not make him a bad guy, he will be a hero in the end (if he turns into the new parent or manages to save everybody without sacrificing). I feel bad for him he has suffered for a long time now:

First he was misunderstood for being different in ancient times, then he found someone so he wouldn't be alone anymore:
http://www.mangareader.net/104-57201-9/vampire-knight/chapter-64.html .

His main purpose even in the ancient times was to eliminate the bad purebloods and it was increased when the HW sacrficed herself. I was re-reading all this chapters again, and found something interesting as well:
http://www.mangareader.net/104-54910-30/vampire-knight/chapter-62.html

So this kinda makes them similar in some way haha

I personally like Zero more, but that does not mean I see Kaname as the bad one always. I hope he has a good ending, he DESERVES it and so do the other characters

Honestly kaname is the only character I can think of that matches the Magnificent B other then maybe lelush [did I spell that right? From code geass] but nether are good in my opinion. I also don't think of kaname to be good. Kaname is tainted, his own words, there is some thing evil about you I cant trust, yuki's words. I do label kaname as a evil, however I don't label him as a villain. Kaname has goals he wants to see made manifest, and he is willing to do what ever needs to be done to get them to that point, no more no less. It is those end goals that make it if you are a villain or an anti-hero. Kanames goals so far have been suggested to be for the greater good which until proven other wise makes kaname a anti-hero and not a villain in my eyes.

As for why I think kaname is evil, he killed shizuka, he killed the council, he killed aidos pops. No matter how you look at it killing is evil even if the killed person deserved to die. Even if they were killed for a reason they were still killed. Kaname him self believes what he did was evil cause other wise why would he comment on his tainted hands?

Man a and man b are fighting trying to kill each other, you jump in to try to stop them but accidently kill man a, man b and his family/friends/lover look at you as a hero however man a's family/friends/lover looks at you as an evil murderer.

Edit: are you guys actually able to see the pics from mangareader? All I get is an outline where the pic should be from that site?

Ahh I should probably say that in my eyes good and evil are not the same as good and bad, just cause I consider a charecter evil does not mean I think he is bad.

@Richard under your perspective everybody is evil...(Kaname, Zero, Ichijo, Cross, who else killed in there?) therefore i can not answer to that, i personally make distinctions, you seem not to make any.

Evil definition: Evil is profound immorality, especially when regarded as a supernatural force,[1] for example in religious belief. Evil is usually perceived as the dualistic opposite of good. Definitions of evil vary, as does the analysis of its root motives and causes; however, evil is commonly associated with conscious and deliberate wrongdoing, discrimination designed to harm others, humiliation of people designed to diminish their psychological well-being and dignity, destructiveness, motives of causing pain or suffering for selfish or malicious intentions, and acts of unnecessary or indiscriminate violence.

wikipedia...

So since everybody is evil who is the hero in VK? no hero they are all immoral bastards after all....

if Kaname is not the hero (well who knows at the end he might turn to be the villain).... who is the hero? M..Yuuki?

you did not answer my original question though; who are the good characters that can be characterized as magnificent bastards, not by you specifically, as examples from manga/ film/movies... Are there any?

No pictures can be seen.

This is actually kind of funny because if you translate magnificent b******, into separate words, soundx pretty rough. I search these meaning which I am not familiar with since Spanish is my mother tongue haha. But the definition I found it kinda fits Kaname in the part of the description: wether we love or hate him and about manipulation.

@richard does evil to you means as the real definition of the word or as in spanish perverso? which can be translated as evil, wicked or else. It's more like a psycological meaning, for that kind of personality.

I can see more like a death note kind of thing, that evil or perverse personality even the magnificent b***** where the main character in his pursue of doing good things such as killing the criminals aka as murders, rapist, bad politicians and so on of this world, turned into an antagonist named that you might known already. The difference between these two it's definitely one thing: Light was consumed by the power that the Death Note gave him, and that he was untouchable.

I don't get what is wrong with them being evil? Evil as in choosing the do negative things to full fill there goals in stead of positive things.
The reason I say kaname is evil is cause he uses negative options to reach his goals more often then positive options. To determine a person you take in there negative and positive and weigh them against each other.

As for a good Magnificent B, it lists several anime characters at the bottom that fall into the category in the link, as far as me listing some my meaning of good and evil is different from your own so they wont mesh, you seem to use a literal translation to base your good and evil while I use positive and negative actions weighed against each other. IOW your good and evil are static while mine are variable.
A good person is not always good and an evil person is not always bad.

I hope I explained this right, I am not every good at expressing stuff in the way i mean it to be.

As for why I think kaname is evil, he killed shizuka, he killed the council, he killed aidos pops. No matter how you look at it killing is evil even if the killed person deserved to die. Even if they were killed for a reason they were still killed.

Is zero an evil, or yuuki? because if I apply your logic to them then they're evil as well.

No yuki is not evil, she uses positive methods more often then negative. Zero, I would say 50/50

But in this last chapter yuki was evil, very evil.

RIchard wrote:No yuki is not evil, she uses positive methods more often then negative. Zero, I would say 50/50

But in this last chapter yuki was evil, very evil.

Why yuuki is not evil, and zero is only half evil? which criteria do you used?

@richard does evil to you means as the real definition of the word or as in spanish perverso? which can be translated as evil, wicked or else. It's more like a psycological meaning, for that kind of personality.

if you understand tell me...i am making no sense out of this also...still you can not say that i am not trying.

I don't get what is wrong with them being evil? Evil as in choosing the do negative things to full fill there goals in stead of positive things.
The reason I say kaname is evil is cause he uses negative options to reach his goals more often then positive options. To determine a person you take in there negative and positive and weigh them against each other.

LOL I am sorry Richard but when you are talking options which were the options that Kaname had in the first arc? tell me examples and how you reach this conclusion.

I know an option not to interfere at all; to take Yuuki, turn her to her pureblood status and have fun at an exotic paradise. Then nobody would label him as the magnificent b******. See my point?

I am sure that Zero would found a way out of this mess; after all what kind of hero is he, if he expects uncle Kaname to come and take his hand?

As it happens right now, Takuma had proposed that option to Kaname to take Yuuki and live happily ever after... Sara was happy to fulfill his role and kill all purebloods, not to mention Ichiou too from the past...given these two as options (since they were collaborators from long ago), why did he interfere in the first place i do not know? see my point...

options as you say...

as far as me listing some my meaning of good and evil is different from your own so they wont mesh, you seem to use a literal translation to base your good and evil while I use positive and negative actions weighed against each other.

sadly Richard, i see that you have nothing concrete to say, other than your own personal definition of evil...but communication is based on mutual understanding of the definition of words..that's why there are definitions, otherwise we can not communicate. If i start sharing my own personal "definitions" of right and wrong we shall never talk about a real thing..

Since as you say you are not good in expressing things the way you mean it, i would suggest to try the common terms that are understood by everyone...a much better way to communicate your meaning. Try to find the correct terms that do communicate the meaning. Otherwise this can not work. Both parties have to try...i can not make it through interpersonal meanings i am sorry.

A good person is not always good and an evil person is not always bad.

then you are speaking about actions...that evil(?) actions do not characterize a person as being bad neither good actions characterize a person of being good.

For me it would be the other way around since evil in its common definitions has far too strong meaning - immoral in order not to characterize a person...
such as

bad actions do not characterize a person as being evil neither good actions characterize a person as being a saint.

Let me see examples;

when Kaname kills Shizouka is a bad action but he does that to protect Zero and Yuuki, since Shizouka wanted them all at her disposal. In a far greater scale if Kaname had allowed to Shizouka to have it her way, someone else should kill her to free Zero that would be Zero or Yuuki herself

So the action of killing her is bad (as an action) but Kaname is not evil.

In the same view Zero kills the vampire that was at the auction (without giving him a chance to apologise or to further arrest him) so this action is bad. Well since Zero was not in reality protecting anyone at that time and he had captured the vampire, could we characterize him as evil? (where is the balance of the action here?)

Ichijou kills his grandfather but his grandfather was a manipulative b****** all the way so is Ichijou evil?

Still this having nothing to do with the initial question of your post.

Kaname may fit the description that you gave because the balance is in the intentions and what there is to protect or how many things depended upon his decisions or actions.

From your definition as described above:

However, it's true that his penchant for manipulation at the expense of others means it's common for him to be a Villain, Villain Protagonist, or at least an Anti-Hero, but purely heroic examples exist.

For me an additional reason that Kaname can not be the villain of the script is because there is no hero that can antagonize him. If there was a hero perhaps i would see a villain but i do not see a hero.

If he is the anti-hero then which are his selfish reasons to act so?

Instead I found this one that typically matches far more Kaname's ways;

Completing a triangle with the Action Hero and the Science Hero, the Guile Hero is a hero who operates by playing politics and manipulating the bad guys. The Guile Hero trades swords and guns (or science and technology) for charm, wit, political and/or financial acumen, and an in-depth knowledge of human nature. The Chain of Deals, along with the Social Engineering and Gambit Index tropes are all at the Guile Hero's fingertips. Often, a Guile Hero will manipulate the other good guys and a whole bunch of innocent bystanders as part of their scheme to bring down the Big Bad, though they'll take care to ensure the other characters aren't truly harmed in the process (and if they fail, they'll be very sorry). The Guile Hero is likely to be a politician or a businessman, and engage in Battles of Wits.
The Guile Hero could be a good analog to the Manipulative b******: the Guile Hero is unambiguously a good guy with the same goals as any Action Hero or Science Hero. While some other heroes may be unhappy with being manipulated by the Guile Hero, it is made clear to the reader that this character both has a heroic goal and is not (usually) Jumping Off the Slippery Slope into becoming a Well-Intentioned Extremist.
The Guile Hero combines elements of The Chessmaster, the Trickster Archetype and The Strategist without having to be all of these. A Guile Hero isn't necessarily The Chessmaster: the Guile Hero is simply a hero who uses wit, charm, and skill to mislead and set up the bad guys, while The Chessmaster is often devoted to grander schemes, and is always at the top of the food chain. A Manipulative b****** tends to be more personal and controlling in his manipulations. A Guile Hero need not be a master manipulator; "guile" can mean "shrewdness" instead of "deceit". The Chain of Deals is just as valid a tool for these characters as the Batman Gambit, and a Guile Hero may very well be a grown up High School Hustler.
In the Five-Man Band, the Guile Hero is most likely to be The Face of the troupe and/or The Smart Guy though a particularly bright Leader or Lancer can also fit in. If The Chick uses her emotional influence to the extreme and combines it with quick wits and words, she can also grow into one. The Guile Hero is also frequently a Sixth Ranger, and if Sixth Ranger is also a Guile Hero they tend to be Sixth Ranger Traitor.
Compare the Young Conqueror, which is a young example of this trope taken Up to Eleven with a side of Take Over the World ambition as well. May overlap with Good Is Not Dumb. Compare Silk Hiding Steel when a Proper Lady feels like plotting. Very, very rarely will this overlap with Small Steps Hero, due to the latter being unwilling to sacrifice innocent parties—but manipulating the villains is just fine.

and since we are referring also to hero - that means action is involved let's go and see who is the character that can be characterized as hero alltogether;

An Action Hero is a form of protagonist who primarily uses combat to achieve his goals in a story. If there's something in his way, his main response is to beat it up. This could be because he doesn't have the patience or skills for any other method, or because he just doesn't have the time. But then again, maybe he actually does try other methods first but it always seems to turn out that Violence Really Is the Answer.

[quote] The Hero can do all the unrelated fighting on the side that he wants, but if he doesn't use it to accomplish his primary goal then it does not make him an Action Hero. Likewise, a character can be a Badass, or show skill in combat, without actually being an Action Hero. If a character never seems to be working towards anything in particular, coming up against problems or facing trials, and generally acting as a Satellite Character, then this trope cannot apply to him.[/quote]

Now i see that violence is used, cunning also, i see that a hero can take many forms and can have multiple ways (manipulation included to achieve its ways) but all these of course mean that he is working for a greater purpose.

Let's see another definition of hero;

Joseph Campbell, a famous scholar who spent his career creating a hero archetype from the mythology of many cultures, once said, “a hero is someone who has given his or her life to something bigger than oneself.” A hero by definition is a person who acts beyond their duty to help or save others, often sacrificing him or her self in the process. The hero can be defined by current events, fictional heroes, and historical heroes in wars.

So what really makes you to chose the particular definition that you used about Kaname? and as an additional question i want to ask about Zero's role...as a description where is he as a hero? which are his goals? his intention to be sacrificed? or his altruistic attitude?

if you show me a hero here, perhaps i shall see a villain or an anti-hero.

And now that i read all the above quite enlightening things, thank you Richard i know that your initial thread would have a use, i can say with certainty that if not Kaname then this script has no HERO. So perhaps we should start from scratch? where is the hero?