Vampire Knight 68: Do Kaname's powers lessen, whereas Zero?

First topic message reminder :

I just can not stop myself from asking and possible go in theories all about it;

In chapter 68 Kaname's hand is actually fried (that's his hand, not a glove he did not wear any) from the anti-vampire weapon he holds.

But as we saw in the past Kaname is fully capable of wielding anti-vampire weapons...

We saw him fighting Rido with no side effects, in his ancestor time he held both Artemis and Bloody Rose.

Plus the fact that kaname could have gone sacrificing himself in the place of the hooded woman adds one more point; he is also a source of anti-vampire power.

So what happens here? Where are his powers? Why is he effected that much by this gun? Can this be the cause he is acting like this in such a hurry to fullfill his plan?

On the other hand Zero's finger heals in an instead, the horses startle at this presence. Is he becoming an even stronger vampire than before? What hints do you get?

mariangie wrote: If you remember , Kaname was shown taking a lot of blood tablets just after the death of his " parents . " ( chapter 48 ) Before taking a human sacrifice that was prepared for him .( Most probably Seiren . A Level D created and stabilized by Kaname and now his servant . As he usually do not want to drink from humans . )

Oh! I've never thought of that before and I always wondering about Seiren ... thanks for the tip ;)

nina wrote:

mariangie wrote: If you remember , Kaname was shown taking a lot of blood tablets just after the death of his " parents . " ( chapter 48 ) Before taking a human sacrifice that was prepared for him .( Most probably Seiren . A Level D created and stabilized by Kaname and now his servant . As he usually do not want to drink from humans . )

Oh! I've never thought of that before and I always wondering about Seiren ... thanks for the tip ;)

Seiren's profile even in the fanbook is mostly blank and unknown, so there is a high possibility that she was the human sacrifice that Mariangie says...
the more I think I about it the more I think its possible since Kaname would not abandon a level e to his fate...

He even took with him thay young vampire that had bitten a girl at the academy and had created a fuss. Later Hino says about him that he is pictured to be one of Kaname's councelors when Kaname enters the meeting with the hunters for the peace treaty...
so the possibily to be Seiren the one is quite high.

juliet wrote:

nina wrote:

mariangie wrote: If you remember , Kaname was shown taking a lot of blood tablets just after the death of his " parents . " ( chapter 48 ) Before taking a human sacrifice that was prepared for him .( Most probably Seiren . A Level D created and stabilized by Kaname and now his servant . As he usually do not want to drink from humans . )

Oh! I've never thought of that before and I always wondering about Seiren ... thanks for the tip ;)

Seiren's profile even in the fanbook is mostly blank and unknown, so there is a high possibility that she was the human sacrifice that Mariangie says...
the more I think I about it the more I think its possible since Kaname would not abandon a level e to his fate...

He even took with him thay young vampire that had bitten a girl at the academy and had created a fuss. Later Hino says about him that he is pictured to be one of Kaname's councelors when Kaname enters the meeting with the hunters for the peace treaty...
so the possibily to be Seiren the one is quite high.

Of course you mean that Seiren was already turned into a vampire and not from Kaname but by others huh??
Mmm so he offers her his blood until now ... but how? I don't like the idea to bite him though! :roll:

No If she was his human sacrifice then Kaname is the one changing her...no she can feed on tablets.

juliet wrote:No If she was his human sacrifice then Kaname is the one changing her...no she can feed on tablets.

NOOOOOO!!!!

I refuse to believe that Kaname did that even in order to fool Ichiou, to make him beleive that he agreed with his actions.
My perspective was always that Kaname or the Kurans in general they had never turned humans into vampires ... And by that time when a sacrifice was offered to Kaname he already remembered his past! So no ... if nothing is confirmed yet I refuse to beleive this theory! Maybe he tricked them, let them beleive that he turned Seiren into vampire but instead he gave her his blood to make her stronger like Shizuka did with Ichiru ... Yeup that's my theory :no way:

ok...but do you remember the page where Aidou's father mentioned to Kaname that he witnessed/participated in the worst crime of the purebloods? Kaname was not proud about it...you could tell...perhaps just a theory...

http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-65-page-35.html

juliet wrote:ok...but do you remember the page where Aidou's father mentioned to Kaname that he witnessed/participated in the worst crime of the purebloods? Kaname was not proud about it...you could tell...perhaps just a theory...

http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-65-page-35.html

So... you think he could refering on that? how Kaname turned Seiren into a vampire? I think it's to much ... I could never imagine Kaname doing something like that and above all against the will of a human! No! And why?
I want to beleive that he is refering on something that involves the PBs ... the sanctity of them ... this issue was always a point of debate between the two of them ...

nina wrote:

juliet wrote:ok...but do you remember the page where Aidou's father mentioned to Kaname that he witnessed/participated in the worst crime of the purebloods? Kaname was not proud about it...you could tell...perhaps just a theory...

http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-65-page-35.html

So... you think he could refering on that? how Kaname turned Seiren into a vampire? I think it's to much ... I could never imagine Kaname doing something like that and above all against the will of a human! No! And why?
I want to beleive that he is refering on something that involves the PBs ... the sanctity of them ... this issue was always a point of debate between the two of them ...

It would no be against, these were humans (if that theory applies) who wanted to be changed. Do you remember the incident that we refer to?

juliet wrote:

nina wrote:

juliet wrote:ok...but do you remember the page where Aidou's father mentioned to Kaname that he witnessed/participated in the worst crime of the purebloods? Kaname was not proud about it...you could tell...perhaps just a theory...

http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-65-page-35.html

So... you think he could refering on that? how Kaname turned Seiren into a vampire? I think it's to much ... I could never imagine Kaname doing something like that and above all against the will of a human! No! And why?
I want to beleive that he is refering on something that involves the PBs ... the sanctity of them ... this issue was always a point of debate between the two of them ...

It would no be against, these were humans (if that theory applies) who wanted to be changed. Do you remember the incident that we refer to?

I thought you were referring at the gather after Haruka's & Juri's death ... there Akatsuki said to Kaname "if you don't want the sacrifices which prepared for you, you can refuse them" ... You have another scene in your mind?

"against the will" ... I said that cuz I figured that you connected the theory about Seiren with "the most sinful crime in the history of PBs" ... so to be a crime it must be without the consent of the human-sacrifice or else isn't a crime ...
At which point I've lost you?

We are both reffering to the same point I just wanted to make it clear;

Here Nina,

http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-48-page-16.html
http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-48-page-17.html

So as you see Kaname says that he is going to comply in order to make them believe that he is satisfied with their attention and plans.

Looking down at these chapters now that we know the truth about his existence makes me consider how much he must had suffered back then, taking all that tablets to tame his hunger(due to Yuuki) in order not to become himself the monster for which the ancestor was sacrificed in the past. Tragic irony...

So yes to answer the next part of your post Aidou's father could be reffering to that as the "greatest crime" of the purebloods if he knows history. Let's not forget that Aidou sees it as Kaname sees it reprenting the monarchy's side. The council had been a lately administrative organ that Kurans had placed before leaving the monarchy.

Who can say if that act during monarchy, changing people was completely forbidden and as a great crime in history?

Condemning the council and its practices makes also sacrifices unappropriate.
Takuma's words to Sara when he finds that she has changed slaves are about the same, even though that's not completely sure due to translation mistakes. Even so for the time being its our highest bet. LOL
Mystery...

Ok I got it ... we were talking about the same thing … but my reservations are:
1. You connect the two "sinful crimes" ... although are mentioned in the same chapter I'm not sure if they are the same ... it might be a trick from Hino, but certainly isn't a coincidence.
2. Takuma accused Sara after he found out that she turned the president against his will, viz she spoiled the pact between hunters & vampires and also Takuma I think he knows about the research for the tablets, so he might figured what Sara aiming to do in the process or that she already did it.
3. Kaname wish to let the senate and Ichiou think that he is ok with their actions, so he could tricked them about Seiren, or even if he did turned her at that time this action wasn't a crime even if Aidou's and Kaname's ideology was different.
I don't know the whole idea seems to me very contradictory ... we saw in Kaname's past that he was refused to take blood from humans to the extend of faint ... This idea-refusal is the core of Kaname, even if he suffered tremendously by Yuuki's absence ... but I do noticed that he wasn't "happy" about Aidou's statement. Anyway we aren't even sure if he "witnessed" or "participated" in that crime ...

Well as you said this is a theory and a mystery for the time being ... so I hope this time juli you will prove wrong ... cuz I don't like the idea at all

And something about the theory for the spoiled tablets … I noticed that everything happened almost synchronously … Sara turned the president and imprisoned him and at the same time we saw Kaname taking the tablets twice (one when Yuuki barged into his room and one when he was talking with Ruka and Akatsuki) and then the blood stain on the floor … All this incidents I think that happened together or almost together … so I was thinking … even if Sara was aiming to spoil the blood tablets, did she had enough time to do it and also to pass them to Kaname ??? Except if Sara’s visit to the president of the pharmacy company was days before the scenes were Kaname take the tablets, but I didn’t get that feeling… (?)

It is very interesting theory, but I doubt if a turning someone into a vampire even against his will, would be recognise as a crime by vampires. They were so cruel, feeding on humans was something normal for them.
Of course Kaname could change Seiren in this situation, it would be against his morally, but he was forced by Council as they wanted to have him as a puppet, obedient to them.

Ok I got it ... we were talking about the same thing … but my reservations are:
1. You connect the two "sinful crimes" ... although are mentioned in the same chapter I'm not sure if they are the same ... it might be a trick from Hino, but certainly isn't a coincidence.2. Takuma accused Sara after he found out that she turned the president against his will, viz she spoiled the pact between hunters & vampires and also Takuma I think he knows about the research for the tablets, so he might figured what Sara aiming to do in the process or that she already did it.

Seeing it from a distance perhaps (always perhaps) Hino wishes to answer our own questions and provides us the answers to it since kaname-aidou dialogue was reffering to the same sinful crime for which takuma is blaming Sara some pages after (if we can trust the translation).




now according to a more correct translation Kaname did not witnessed but he PARTICIPATED in the most sinful crime in the history, if we take Takuma's interpretion then Hino is providing the answer...he changed people.

Kaname wish to let the senate and Ichiou think that he is ok with their actions, so he could tricked them about Seiren, or even if he did turned her at that time this action wasn't a crime even if Aidou's and Kaname's ideology was different. I don't know the whole idea seems to me very contradictory ... we saw in Kaname's past that he was refused to take blood from humans to the extend of faint ... This idea-refusal is the core of Kaname, even if he suffered tremendously by Yuuki's absence ... but I do noticed that he wasn't "happy" about Aidou's statement. Anyway we aren't even sure if he "witnessed" or "participated" in that crime ...

Akaruisama wrote:It is very interesting theory, but I doubt if turning someone into a vampire even against his will, would be recognise as a crime by vampires. They were so cruel, feeding on humans was something normal for them.
Of course Kaname could change Seiren in this situation, it would be against his morally, but he was forced by Council as they wanted to have him as a puppet, obedient to them.

Aidou are with the monarchy so with Kurans which defended the changing so for the most part of the history "changing" can be seen perhaps as a crime...

Well it was not about Seiren or Yuuki, it was the fact that Kaname had not restored his powers yet and he could not go againts their will, so for the time being he chose to act as a puppet.
Irrelevant to Seiren or not, Kaname states that he shall play along so he did partipate there...perhaps a key to the theory is Shizuka going missing...that was after her attack on Kiryus iF I remember well because the council was hunting her.. (I have to check the dates as it seems that Kaname's crime took place during that period)...
but more than that Aidou's dad says even before that Kaname would not hesitate to sacrifice them all to achieve his plans- a rumour stasted by Ichoiu- Kaname says; If you refraining to the council and Aidou dono corrects him stating that he refers to a "crime" that took place long ago..

If Kaname had to play along with the council to fullfil his plans back then and participated in a sacrifices of human (againts his own family royal believe's and tragic history) isn't that the proof that he is indeed willing to do whatever necessary to achieve his goals> and sacrifice what it takes to achieve his plans (the bigger good) despite the sorrow he fills and even his own beliefs?
another tragic irony here since Aidou dono sacrifice himself a chapter afterwards..as asked by kaname to achieve his goals.

Well as you said this is a theory and a mystery for the time being ... so I hope this time juli you will prove wrong ... cuz I don't like the idea at all

I hope I am right because under the circumstances Nina that's the less it could have happened, after all if Seiren was his sacrifice, she is fine.

And something about the theory for the spoiled tablets … I noticed that everything happened almost synchronously … Sara turned the president and imprisoned him and at the same time we saw Kaname taking the tablets twice (one when Yuuki barged into his room and one when he was talking with Ruka and Akatsuki) and then the blood stain on the floor … All this incidents I think that happened together or almost together … so I was thinking … even if Sara was aiming to spoil the blood tablets, did she had enough time to do it and also to pass them to Kaname ??? Except if Sara’s visit to the president of the pharmacy company was days before the scenes were Kaname take the tablets, but I didn’t get that feeling… (?)

Time element is difficult in Vk but you are right, is as like everything is taking place in the same chapter ...there was a spoiler reffering to Sara's plans even before Yuuki's sleep and delving in Kaname's memories, according to that spoiler Sara's actions are taking place before Yuuki's sleep but the chapter was postponed and we only saw Sara two chapters after that so I am not sure what changed Hino's time plans...we will see, i would be happy to know that Kaname is forcefull as ever but somehow that bleeding at his hand after instantly killing Hanadagi does not convince me...

juliet wrote:

Well as you said this is a theory and a mystery for the time being ... so I hope this time juli you will prove wrong ... cuz I don't like the idea at all

I hope I am right because under the circumstances Nina that's the less it could have happened, after all if Seiren was his sacrifice, she is fine.

I rest my case ... you scared me now

juliet wrote:

And something about the theory for the spoiled tablets … I noticed that everything happened almost synchronously … Sara turned the president and imprisoned him and at the same time we saw Kaname taking the tablets twice (one when Yuuki barged into his room and one when he was talking with Ruka and Akatsuki) and then the blood stain on the floor … All this incidents I think that happened together or almost together … so I was thinking … even if Sara was aiming to spoil the blood tablets, did she had enough time to do it and also to pass them to Kaname ??? Except if Sara’s visit to the president of the pharmacy company was days before the scenes were Kaname take the tablets, but I didn’t get that feeling… (?)

Time element is difficult in Vk but you are right, is as like everything is taking place in the same chapter ...there was a spoiler reffering to Sara's plans even before Yuuki's sleep and delving in Kaname's memories, according to that spoiler Sara's actions are taking place before Yuuki's sleep but the chapter was postponed and we only saw Sara two chapters after that so I am not sure what changed Hino's time plans...we will see, i would be happy to know that Kaname is forcefull as ever but somehow that bleeding at his hand after instantly killing Hanadagi does not convince me...

Interesting ...
Yes you right there is definitely something wrong with Kaname ...

A pureblood vampire biting and creating a Level D stabilized vampire situation has nothing to be related to the worst sin a pureblood vampire could make . Remember , during the meeting of Kaname and the Hunter's Association they had an agreement of allowing purebloods to bite and drink blood from humans if the human allowed and the pureblood stabilized the ex - human now - turned - vampire . The same loophole than allowed Sara to create her female vampire harem .

During the story , Kaname is shown as disliking wanting to bite humans or even other vampires . Except in few situations as the case when Ruka offered her blood or when he killed Shizuka . During the scene of chapter 48 , at the party Kaname attended after his " parents " death , he told a human sacrifice was to be given to him by the Vampire Senate . than he was taking so much tablets to avoid killing the human in his bloodlust . So most probable by political and social reasons , Kaname acepted the human sacrifice . He probably ended making this human a Level D stabilized vampire . He took that ex - human as his personal bodyguard . To be responsible of his act .

[quote="nina"]
And something about the theory for the spoiled tablets … I noticed that everything happened almost synchronously … Sara turned the president and imprisoned him and at the same time we saw Kaname taking the tablets twice (one when Yuuki barged into his room and one when he was talking with Ruka and Akatsuki) and then the blood stain on the floor … All this incidents I think that happened together or almost together … so I was thinking … even if Sara was aiming to spoil the blood tablets, did she had enough time to do it and also to pass them to Kaname ??? Except if Sara’s visit to the president of the pharmacy company was days before the scenes were Kaname take the tablets, but I didn’t get that feeling… (?)

Remember a whole year passed from chapter 49 to 50 . Sara could had planned most of her ideas during that year period . The adultered pills most probably were tested before the events shown to us at the second arc . But the scenes you are referring happen in a short period of time . Most probable the adultered blood tablets brand used by Kaname were send to him days before the vampire / hunters meeting / ball of the second arc .

mariangie wrote:

nina wrote:
And something about the theory for the spoiled tablets … I noticed that everything happened almost synchronously … Sara turned the president and imprisoned him and at the same time we saw Kaname taking the tablets twice (one when Yuuki barged into his room and one when he was talking with Ruka and Akatsuki) and then the blood stain on the floor … All this incidents I think that happened together or almost together … so I was thinking … even if Sara was aiming to spoil the blood tablets, did she had enough time to do it and also to pass them to Kaname ??? Except if Sara’s visit to the president of the pharmacy company was days before the scenes were Kaname take the tablets, but I didn’t get that feeling… (?)

Remember a whole year passed from chapter 49 to 50 . Sara could had planned most of her ideas during that year period . The adultered pills most probably were tested before the events shown to us at the second arc . But the scenes you are referring happen in a short period of time . Most probable the adultered blood tablets brand used by Kaname were send to him days before the vampire / hunters meeting / ball of the second arc .

Yes I agree with you ... Sara probably had planned her movements a long time before, she had a hidden agenda even before the senate's
extermination ... she mentioned that she was playing the "good girl" infront of the senate and she wanted to ask Ichiou to "give" her Takuma.
Also it's quite plausible that the research for the new tablets had began from Ichiou and Sara knew something about it cuz she was close to the senate.

My wonder was why she had to turn the president into vampire if she
already had achieved her purpose ... she had passed the spoiled tablets to Kaname ... Anyway maybe she need the president for the next step of her plan ... will see.