Yuki's relationship with Zero (chapter 73-74)

First topic message reminder :

what do you think?

Based on chapter 73-74 revelations, is it friendship or romance?

For me its always been friendship between them and this chapter just clarified it.
There was nothing strong enough to indicate romance between them as it was not mutual and Zero's the only one who loves Yuki.

Howl4fun wrote:

I just saw this now; yes of course there is, see at the scans how Yuuki cares and tenders young Zero still from being kids? how she pads him at the back, giving him courage and pledges that she will be his ally BEFORE all this LT issue arises...that's why I posted all of these scans...to highlight that the care and interest that Yuuki showed to Zero back there, that was purely friendship, in fact does not changes even when she is leaving with Kaname (saying that she does not want to be enemies), it's a stable attitude that characterizes Yuuki's nature and attitude from the first days that she saw Zero being in a mess and wanted to help him. Therefore it does not necessarily support love feelings...as we see her love feelings for Kaname and there is not contradicting to another. In fact it helps in the disctiction of the two frienship vs romantic love and how Yuuki expresses these feelings to each.

Nice explaining from your POV, but this isn't an "evidence" as you call it. An evidence is something that can't be argued What.So.Ever. In other words; a fact. Zeki being platonic/one-sided or not is an opinion/interpretion/matter of viewpoint, whatever you like to call it, not a fact. How does Yuuki nurturing Zero as a kid, being his ally as a teen null the possibility of romantic feelings? O.o I don't mind if this is your opinion of it, but I hardly see how it can be considered an "evidence". This is what my original post was explaing, how love develops differently in different relationships. And being by each other's sides for four years, growing together, mutually caring and fighting for the other, sharing thoughts and fears and seeking comfort with one another, can very well lead to a possibility of love starting to grow somewhere, albeit slowly (for the couple) and ambiguisly (for us readers). That's my opinion of it, though not an evidence. As neither can you call yours.

Again you keep saying how you don't see the love in zeki, it's not developed enough, it's "flat" etc. while for me it's the complete opposite. Which is mainly what I think we should just agree to disagree on. Hope I answered to what you wondered to.

So I want to ask until which chapter do you accept that Yuuki's behavior indicates the friendship/caring attitude so that this period can be accepted as a fact/evidence of a friendship relatioship?

So I want to ask until which chapter do you accept that Yuuki's behavior indicates the friendship/caring attitude so that this period can be accepted as a fact/evidence of a friendship relatioship?

I'm not sure what you mean. I never said that zeki is not or hasn't ever been just friendship O.o they started out as purely friends, yes, point was how love grew along the way, which is obviously what we won't agree on.

Howl4fun wrote:

So I want to ask until which chapter do you accept that Yuuki's behavior indicates the friendship/caring attitude so that this period can be accepted as a fact/evidence of a friendship relatioship?

I'm not sure what you mean. I never said that zeki is not or hasn't ever been just friendship O.o they started out as purely friends, yes, point was how love grew along the way, which is obviously what we won't agree on.

I never said that you said that " zeki is not or hasn't ever been just friendship O.o" Apparently there has been a period that can be taken/given as a fact-evidence of a friendship relationship. So until which point or chapter (if you do not remember chapter just describe it) do you accept that their relationship is friendship so we can both agree that this period can be used as evidence of a friendly relatioship.

juliet wrote:

Howl4fun wrote:

So I want to ask until which chapter do you accept that Yuuki's behavior indicates the friendship/caring attitude so that this period can be accepted as a fact/evidence of a friendship relatioship?

I'm not sure what you mean. I never said that zeki is not or hasn't ever been just friendship O.o they started out as purely friends, yes, point was how love grew along the way, which is obviously what we won't agree on.

I never said that you said that " zeki is not or hasn't ever been just friendship O.o" Apparently there has been a period that can be taken/given as a fact-evidence of a friendship relationship. So until which point or chapter (if you do not remember chapter just describe it) do you accept that their relationship is friendship so we can both agree that this period can be used as evidence of a friendly relatioship.

Oh, that's what you meant. Hmm, till her reaction when he tried to kiss her perhaps? I know you might want to say that that was a long time ago and whatever possible romantic feelings she had, they vanished again, but I think this showed enough hints that stronger feelings was there at a time. You see it as you wish though.

Trinity wrote: I think I'm being misunderstood on my "read between the lines" thing or used the wrong term trolol

Haha okie dokie …

I'm meaning that well...the difference in Zeki is that it is alot more subtle, it's a relationship where we get small hints here and there that add up to something bigger than some may imagine but it's also things that people might not a. notice or b. see as relevant to their relationship, whereas those that do like the pairing will pick up on these little things.

Yes … the bolded part is exactly my point … the difference though is that …
a) all these small hints here and there do not add up to something bigger … are always small hints with full ambiguity which led to nowhere for 74 chapters now, except from friendship to enemies and now vice versa. Apparently the progression towards love direction is zero. So is very possible to exist only to serve the LT and nothing more???
b) I hope I’m not surprising you but we (Yume) know all of those hints and the Zeki's explanation/interpretation and nope still nothing … no romance there …

So I think I’ll stick at the real lines and I’ll leave the reading between the lines to you … seems that you needed more

The difference in the pairings and their development as well is staggering IMO of course XD

If so, then I suggest you to counterpoise every statement that Yuuki made for Kaname with similar wording of hers for Zero … IF you can do that XD. Or else your comment above, is the staggering one IMO ofc XDDD

I'm not quite sure what you are trying to get at here o.o The thing she was most guilty about before drinking from him was because she didn't want to cause him pain and we seen a little into her thoughts last chapter as well when she remembered what Kaname had said about only needing her blood yet despite that she still went for the bite? haha sorry your question is so very confusing to me XD

You’re referring to Zero I suppose, but I was referring to Kaname … let me rephrase it then …
Where is the guilt that Yuuki should have felt towards Kaname? IF she drank from Zero not because she needed food but because she wanted his blood out of love/passion, she should have compunctions/guilt. If she wanted his blood cuz she is IN LOVE with him as you suggesting, then doesn’t that mean that she just committed infidelity towards to her fiancé Kaname??? Didn’t she break her promise and her decision not to drink from anyone else?? So … where is her guilt?

My point is, she doesn’t feel guilty cuz she didn’t commit infidelity cuz her decision to drink from Zero was driven from her basic need for food … nothing emotional there hence no infidelity >>> no guilt towards Kaname. And actually it makes more sense if you take into consideration the reason why she took his blood >>> she wants to do her job as a PB KURAN << that’s her reason, but apparently her hunger was so big that she couldn’t focus on anything else than blood <<< this also hinted from the scene with Yori whereas she thought her friend as food lol.

Strange though ... is the first time that I've see so many people supporting a two timing heroine

Tbh your post in general is confusing... you say I have said things, Which I didn't XD

Actually I didn’t either ...
Here what I wrote >>>

Another Zeki argument which I’ll use to back up my words … you supported that Zero’s thirst fits were originated from his desire for Yuuki’s blood? Why the same trait should not apply to Yuuki as well?? Where her thirst fits are; AFTER she drank from Kaname using her fangs???

Weird ... the bolded part was cut off from your quote
I was referring on an argument that it’s been used a lot from many Zeki not you in particular … But you didn’t answer. I suppose you do not agree with the Zeki-argument then …

Also one of the reasons Yuuki wasn't using her fangs was because she was trying to suppress the Vampire side of her, the side she knew/thought Zero hated perhaps?...Although it does make me happy she has finally accepted herself and Zero has done the same it seems

Yes … that’s why I said that if Zero didn’t say that they are enemies maybe she wouldn’t have problems … Zero’s rejection of the PB Yuuki had create to her lots of problems to adjust into her true nature, thus she was refusing to use her fangs. You see I can read between the lines too when I should do …

The point is that this isn’t an indication of romance again … Even if she had only friendly/brotherly feelings for Zero still she wouldn’t feel hurt from his rejection? Jeez! The guy pointed his gun TWICE towards her simply cuz she was PB … for no other reason, just because he hated her nature!
Look the scene where Yuuki and Aidou saved Yori from an attack back to the academy … Yuuki had just returned from her visit to Zero’s room where he pointed his gun for the first time…
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2165-14/vampire-knight/chapter-39.html

“I’m sorry Yori-chan … just now the person who became ash … he is the same as me … I’m sorry I…”
And look how surprised is Yuuki form Yori’s warm acceptance of her …
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2165-15/vampire-knight/chapter-39.html
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2165-16/vampire-knight/chapter-39.html

So why she had to apologise to Yori for who she truly was? She viewed her self as no-good, unworthy creature, a beast in human form … she feels guilty and says she is sorry … Cuz has been cruelly rejected and threatened from her best friend … from the person she grew up with, for 4 years … from the person she did so much to save his life … from the person who was closer from anyone else at that time etc etc … So isn’t natural to feel that she want to suppress the vampire inside her, since her vampirism was the reason that she had to cut off completely from her life such a beloved person? Why should be only out of romantic feelings? The same would apply if she had been rejected from her mother, from her father, from her brother, from a person with who has a strong bond like Zero … Zero made her believe that, because she was a PB she betrayed her people …


But we saw her resolution didn’t we?
Chapter 51 Dilemma >> we saw her inner struggle … the battle between the “human” Yuuki and the vampire Yuuki where in the end she reaches and grabs the hand of the chibi Yuuki vampire >> resin rose…
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2179-17/vampire-knight/chapter-51.html

… and then >> “His neck … his beautiful pale neck … those are without a doubt my feelings …”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2179-19/vampire-knight/chapter-51.html

So finally she decides to accept her true nature and after so long she drinks from Kaname using her fangs after a year had passed from her awaking …
But the vampire inside her was still a chibi one …

http://www.mangareader.net/104-2162-18/vampire-knight/chapter-36.html

Oh thanks for the reminder … do you think that I had forgot that Yume bite?
Haha … ofc not … but you missed my point though. The first time she used her fangs was after her awaking … she hadn’t the space to think, she acted driven from instinct and from feelings that had overwhelmed her … no thoughts >>> no mind traps, no guilt. She was completely in her vampire nature instinctively … hence her feelings, her wants, her acts were genuine there …
But that bite was before a year ...

So that’s why I said that the statement “one chunk of my heart” was made prior she starts drinking from Kaname properly hence she couldn’t be fully satisfied cuz until then she refused to use her fangs … the attachment she was talking about was keeping her from setting free her true nature, the real Yuuki with her real wants and needs >>> which is it >>> “I want to devour him to the very limits of his life” … but as I said above still the vampire inside her, despite her acceptance was a chibi one … But after that scene we didn’t have any statement from Yuuki saying that she wasn’t fully satisfied from Kaname’s blood emotionally and on the contrary we have her saying recently…

> … those words that I said to Kaname was selfish/childish and a terrible thing (referring to “one chunk”) XD
> Even if you didn’t ask me Kaname … I would do so … XD
> I never thought of taking Zero’s blood XD
> I want a bit of your blood to do my job as a PB KURAN XD … Yuuki used Zero’s blood as a stepping stone, but because she had his consent she has no guilt about it …

Also Zeki does exist xD if it didn't no one would ship it... Both pairings exist, hence these "discussions".

Oh but neither all Zeki are sure about the existence of their ship or at least they can’t openly support the absolute of the Zero/Yuuki romance >>>

Howl4fun wrote: I never said that zeki is not or hasn't ever been just friendship O.o

See ^^^^??? I haven’t seen, not one Yume saying that our ship could only exist in our imagination though … hahaha

I just hate debating cos I have grown tired of it after debating for about 7 years in another fandom *hangs self*

Mmm strangely though you picked the thread for the LT debate whereas there are lots of threads which focusing on the plot … you have choices you know …

Howl4fun wrote:

juliet wrote:

Howl4fun wrote:

So I want to ask until which chapter do you accept that Yuuki's behavior indicates the friendship/caring attitude so that this period can be accepted as a fact/evidence of a friendship relatioship?

I'm not sure what you mean. I never said that zeki is not or hasn't ever been just friendship O.o they started out as purely friends, yes, point was how love grew along the way, which is obviously what we won't agree on.

I never said that you said that " zeki is not or hasn't ever been just friendship O.o" Apparently there has been a period that can be taken/given as a fact-evidence of a friendship relationship. So until which point or chapter (if you do not remember chapter just describe it) do you accept that their relationship is friendship so we can both agree that this period can be used as evidence of a friendly relatioship.

Oh, that's what you meant. Hmm, till her reaction when he tried to kiss her perhaps? I know you might want to say that that was a long time ago and whatever possible romantic feelings she had, they vanished again, but I think this showed enough hints that stronger feelings was there at a time. You see it as you wish though.

For Zero, Yuuki or both?

sweetsolace wrote:

Knightmare wrote:
How is love portrayed in VK? ...

lol! what I originally meant was how Yuki viewed love since she's the subject but I think it was mixed..

Ah by Yuuki's standards, yes, I agree. She wanted to emulate her parents as a child and yume satisfied her and what she understands as love comes from that. Which is exactly why I don't think she understood her attachment to Zero as love originally, but between Zero's revelation of his feelings and Kaname's explanation about needing a beloved's blood to be satisfied, she's come to understand that she needs Zero in that way, but she still can't acknowledge love because she's not free to choose him.

When Yuki told Kaname about her attachment to Zero, it was about attachment, it didn't say it was love. She admits part of her was attached to him, and attributed her dissatisfaction because of that, but this actually doesn't make sense if Kaname's blood is enough for her or she feels like she can never get enough of it. There are conflicting views there that doesn't match with what Yuki shows with Kaname.

And what is attachment? what is this unbreakable bond to Zero that she spent a year trying to deny herself? this is what eventually led to the conclusion that she needed his blood to be completely satisfied as her loved one. She's crying as she's telling Kaname this and asking in spite of this, can she stay with Kaname.

Yuki cannot be both satisfied with and without Zero. you see yuuki as satisfied with kaname's blood, but many don't...and she didn't say she was. yuuki has always craved kaname's blood, at one point it was the only blood she wanted, Kaname even wonders why she craves his blood so much and in 51 she's thinking about how much she wants it and this is before she stated she wasn't satisfied by kaname's blood, so stating it after the fact doesn't mean anything has changed in her satisfaction and problem means that has nothing to do with satisfaction. the argument here is yuuki is making a conclusion on what will satisfy her based on what she wants in her heart, the blood doesn't answer something she doesn't already know.

With regards to the fangs theory, no one including Kaname ever said she needed to use her fangs to gain satisfaction, its only equated with being childish to not use them. the only speech on fangs is using them to get what you want, as yuuki says in 73.

For Yuki to have desire for Zero's blood (as one of her loved ones), Zero who loves her romantically, I believe is already a form of disloyalty, but she cannot end her attachment to him so in a way she feels bad for staying with Kaname.

Yuuki's confession was cruel and selfish and she lets Kaname think its about love, if its not, then its even more cruel and selfish to allow him to think so if he's mistaken. To get this straight: Yuuki is taking responsibility for the cruel confession about the attachment in her heart and needing the blood of someone who romantically loves her (not returned), whom she hasn't tasted. but none of that discussion has been about Zero feelings for her, nor accounts for yuuki's belief that zero must have discarded his romantic feelings for her after a year (if not then, then certainly in 73 when she reaffirms that and calls her confession cruel).

Also I think its considered Kaname and Yuki are officially in a pureblood relationship, I recall reading somewhere in the manga that the role of a pureblood's mate is quite important for the survival of both, and they generally feed on each other when available.

Not really, Isaya drinks from his servants since his wife is long gone and the other pureblood heads, Hanadagi and Hiou also seemed to be alone. Kaname spent a lot of time along before he meet the hooded woman.

there is no romantic attachment that can be logically backed by evidence nor is supported by her actions towards him

Oh definitely true, its not immediately visible. My interpretation is that Yuki has no hope for a romantic relationship, she won't think about it, all she will confirm is that she believes Zero has no feelings for her, so the door is closed on that and the best she can hope for, is allies once more. From a readers perspective it does look like this is fabricated, but its based on understanding the character and narrative reasons for bringing such details to light. I already thought that Yuuki believed Zero had no feelings for her, 71 confirmed it. her interactions with Zero since re-meeting have been defined by how yuuki think Zero has defined their relationship, cordial enemies, except for 60 where she let herself unconsciously go, a scene full of UST.

http://www.mangareader.net/104-51058-23/vampire-knight/chapter-60.html
http://www.mangareader.net/104-51058-24/vampire-knight/chapter-60.html
http://www.mangareader.net/104-51058-25/vampire-knight/chapter-60.html

http://www.mangareader.net/104-2173-7/vampire-knight/chapter-47.html
After she realised that zero was in love with her, yuuki has never indicated that she doesn't reciprocate those feelings or that his feelings are unwanted. when kaname says half her heart belong to Zero, she denies that he could be ok with that, yuuki misses opportunity after opporturnity to close the door on a zeki romance repeatedly. It is as much about what isn't said, as what is. All the characters make good use of silence and Hino's favourite weapon to keep things ambiguous.

If you're dismissing the ambiguous stuff as unromantic, when yuuki finally admits it with clarity, you will complain that it came out of nowhere unless you are open to it possibly being of a romantic nature. Anyway, if anything, the Zeki relationship embraces the style of the series, that which hino loves and beats us over the head with, ambiguity and mystery.

When will it happen, when will she return it? It seems she's also making a one sided effort here to mend things with him too, if she's in love with him why is she the only one making an effort to fix their supposed romantic relationship? The scenario seems similar with their relationship since square one, Yuki pats him on the back and Zero feels light again and decides to continue helping Yuki despite his feelings for her which he will always keep out of the way and she on the other hand will always want his friendship.

Zero has suppressed his feelings for Yuki and claims no emotion related to her. and as far as Zero's concerned, like Maria says, Yuki belongs to Kaname and thats the way its always been for Zero. Also, Yuki is not making efforts to establish a romantic relationship, she's merely claiming a foot in the door, like Sari said. Zero's stance is the logical one, why does she need him if she has kaname? Maria says the same thing. "she just does" is not an adequate enough excuse because they do not both fit in her life that way, there is overlap because it goes beyond friendship.

nina wrote:
My point is that the comparison should be made using the traits of the specific story in question, cuz not only there are different expressions of love but there are differences on the way every author wants to depict the love/romance into their manga.

knightmare wrote: How is love portrayed in VK?
- Shizuka showed love by teasing Ichiru, refusing to bite Ichiru and turn him into a vampire and causing him the same pain she caused her human lover, keeping him at a distance, giving him her flesh and blood.
- Ichiru protected Shizuka and desired for her to turn him into a vampire, and completed her vengeance after her death. He never told her that he loved her, but he knew that she knew, but wasn't sure if she had loved him too.
- Zero expresses his love for Yuuki in the first arc with his standard sullen nature, through his protective actions, not his words until he actually kissed her, alot of readers were certain he wasn't in love with her and called it friendship.
- Maria yearns and searchs for Ichiru's presence.
- Shiki and Rima protect one another, constant companions and friends who share much in common.
- Kain, protecting Ruka and follows her dogmatically, accepted her love for Kaname silently.
- Ruka as a child gushed about Kaname, as she grew older, she became a Kaname fan girl, but also observant, selfless and fiercly protected Kaname from others and himself.
- Haruka and Juri, physically affectionate and close, babbled fondly and warmly about one another, starting out with Juri tsunderely hostile to Haruka's persistent attachment to her.

All the above ^^^ relations are one-sided loves except from Haruka/Juri and Shiki/Rima. Actually for Shiki/Rima we don’t have almost any clue for their romantic relationship and they are secondery characters either way so they are not representable couple to explore the romance in VK cuz of lack of “time-screen”.

Relationships don't define how love should be depicted in vk, the point of the above is that not all love is defined in one certain manner, whether its one sided or not. You cannot judge yuuki's feelings for zero as romantic by definition of a relationship, yuuki's not in that position to express such a sentiment to him as compared to one would in a relationship and the circumstances are far different than how it was with Kaname, so you need to compare how people are when they love one another but cannot always express it. and how can we define romantic relationships of vk unless they have plenty of screen time if we only have yume who are still as yet unresolved to judge by. and harujuri as a measurement are very different from yume in a relationship, as there's absolutely no sign of the vampire desire stuff in the harujuri relationship. to the original point, basically yume is not the only possible style of relationship in vk, how a relationship will be will depend on the characters involved and their situation, Kaname and Zero are very different and how they affect Yuuki differs and this is not simply a reflection of her romantic attitude.

2. Rido wasn’t always mad though … Juri’s rejection turned Rido into a mad man cuz he couldn’t take the blood which he desired.
But the fact that he wanted to consume Juri it’s not an expression of unhealthy love ofc … cuz this need has been expressed from Zero, Yuuki and Kaname as well.
If you think that such statements indicate unhealthy relations then you’re not accepting Hino’s way to depict love/romance/passion for vampires cuz do not coincide with your preferences as I can see … If I didn’t understand correctly feel free to correct me.

No, Rido had an obsession with Juri, said he wanted to eat her whole, long after she was dead and also wanted to replace her with her daughter who looked a like, which I call unhealthy love.

The main fact is exactly as you state it; the change. Even if we adopt Zeki's perspecive thus we believe that Yuuki has romantic feelings for Zero where is the change to her? inside her? something that tell us "LOVE" as Yuuki experiences love thus her feelings for Zero (no matter how she expresses them) have to be higher than the feelings that we have seen her expressing for Kaname (see scans) in order Zeki to rise. How is it possible for Hino to create a subtle love that will surpass Yume consciously if Hino does not create the equivalent or even higher pathos and desire?

There is no single point, its a relationship that has evolved and adapted. It continues to evolve and adapt without a set boundary on where that is going. As for surpassing yume, thats a personal pov on how "high" you see yume as. I don't want to see zeki emulate yume and have yuuki express her love by saying how Zero overwhelms or how strong and beautiful he is or go beyond that, it doesn't satisfy why I like Zeki, I want to see it visually, in tenderness, special looks, comfort and general closeness and through the strength they get from each other even in painful times.
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2172-25/vampire-knight/chapter-46.html
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2172-26/vampire-knight/chapter-46.html

“What are you saying? You want what? If you want you can eat ALL OF HIM. Isn’t that what YOU WANT? If you don’t devour what you desire you’ll be driven insane. I’m still so far, I can’t even think of saying we’re equal. But the vampire inside of me doesn’t care … THIS DESIRE IS SO PURE IT CAN’T BE HIDDEN…” >>> (chap. 66<<< meaning that is AFTER the one chunk of my heart statement and few hours just before her separation with Kaname!)

This desire is so pure it can be hidden!!!! So if she had romantic feelings for Zero which moreover suppresses for soooooo long, how can hide them from herself??? Especially now that she is a vampire!?
Apparently if that was the case she couldn’t control herself and especially having the “object of her desire” to offer his blood. But we all saw how the bite gone …
[/quote]
She doesn't say hidden. A better translation is:
Vyuuki: "What are you saying? Even though you wanted it. If you want it, then it's okay to eat it all. rather…you have to eat what you want, or it'll be painful..."
Yuuki: "Even though I talked about equality, I'm still troubled by how far that still is from me… The Vampire Me inside of me is freely honest about her desire. That b******."

Oh but neither all Zeki are sure about the existence of their ship or at least they can’t openly support the absolute of the Zero/Yuuki romance

I think you'll find doubts about their own pairings on both ships. Zeki's who don't believe Zeki will come to pass and Yume's who don't think Yume canon will last and both thinking the other pairing will come to pass. And then there are those that don't think that either ship should survive.

Trinity wrote:
I just hate debating cos I have grown tired of it after debating for about 7 years in another fandom *hangs self*

Its addictive...

Knightmare, you have some of the best posts. Fully agree with you.

For Zero, Yuuki or both?

If you mean by who's feelings showed to possibly be stronger for the first time it was Yuuki. With Zero, I think it was when he watched Yuuki and Kaname dance/Kaname hug Yuuki with a really sad face.



I'll be paying more attention to my life now however, what with the terror actions that just happened in my country so.. I'll be taking a break from these forums. I wish everyone luck with further discussions.

Howl4fun wrote:
I'll be paying more attention to my life now however, what with the terror actions that just happened in my country so.. I'll be taking a break from these forums. I wish everyone luck with further discussions.

I'm assuming you live in Norway; my thoughts and prayers are with you and your country. It is hard to comprehend such senseless death and violence. Take care, hopefully we'll see you pop in from time to time.

PeachBum wrote:

Howl4fun wrote:
I'll be paying more attention to my life now however, what with the terror actions that just happened in my country so.. I'll be taking a break from these forums. I wish everyone luck with further discussions.

I'm assuming you live in Norway; my thoughts and prayers are with you and your country. It is hard to comprehend such senseless death and violence. Take care, hopefully we'll see you pop in from time to time.

I'm norwegian, yes. Thank you, I appreciate it.

Howl4fun wrote:

PeachBum wrote:

Howl4fun wrote:
I'll be paying more attention to my life now however, what with the terror actions that just happened in my country so.. I'll be taking a break from these forums. I wish everyone luck with further discussions.

I'm assuming you live in Norway; my thoughts and prayers are with you and your country. It is hard to comprehend such senseless death and violence. Take care, hopefully we'll see you pop in from time to time.

I'm norwegian, yes. Thank you, I appreciate it.

I did see what happen to Norway in the tv it´s sad. In our country we are praying for Norway. There is a danish woman who died too. I did see many both from Norway and my own country who was about to cry. First that in Haiti and so that in Japan and now Norway:( My thoughts are with you:(

I did see what happen to Norway in the tv it´s sad. In our country we are praying for Norway. There is a danish woman who died too. I did see many both from Norway and my own country who was about to cry. First that in Haiti and so that in Japan and now Norway:( My thoughts are with you:(

Thank you, ..^^; what happened in Norway was a human's fault however, not nature like in Haiti and Japan. Still, appreciate your concerns. If you wish to speak with me further on it, please take it by PM as I don't want to make this thread be about this ^^;

Howl4fun wrote:

PeachBum wrote:

Howl4fun wrote:
I'll be paying more attention to my life now however, what with the terror actions that just happened in my country so.. I'll be taking a break from these forums. I wish everyone luck with further discussions.

I'm assuming you live in Norway; my thoughts and prayers are with you and your country. It is hard to comprehend such senseless death and violence. Take care, hopefully we'll see you pop in from time to time.

I'm norwegian, yes. Thank you, I appreciate it.

omg! i hope no-one you knew got hurt. it was terrible what happened!!! take care and be safe.

nina wrote:

You’re referring to Zero I suppose, but I was referring to Kaname … let me rephrase it then …
Where is the guilt that Yuuki should have felt towards Kaname? IF she drank from Zero not because she needed food but because she wanted his blood out of love/passion, she should have compunctions/guilt. If she wanted his blood cuz she is IN LOVE with him as you suggesting, then doesn’t that mean that she just committed infidelity towards to her fiancé Kaname??? Didn’t she break her promise and her decision not to drink from anyone else?? So … where is her guilt?

My point is, she doesn’t feel guilty cuz she didn’t commit infidelity cuz her decision to drink from Zero was driven from her basic need for food … nothing emotional there hence no infidelity >>> no guilt towards Kaname. And actually it makes more sense if you take into consideration the reason why she took his blood >>> she wants to do her job as a PB KURAN << that’s her reason, but apparently her hunger was so big that she couldn’t focus on anything else than blood <<< this also hinted from the scene with Yori whereas she thought her friend as food lol.

Strange though ... is the first time that I've see so many people supporting a two timing heroine

have to agree with you nina. where is the guilt? its not evident anywhere as far as i can see.

Here's my opinions of the latest chapters and ZeroxYuuki's progressing relationship :3 I think it's become pretty clear lately that Yuuki and Zero have both tried to lock away any feelings of sentiment they had for each other after their parting ways a year ago after the battle with Rido. But... recently he's begun to talk to her again...it's a start. The first thing, that i just absolutely LOVED was when Zero told Yuuki she should use the bracelet to contain him with that devious smirk on his face. I kinda had a fangirl thought about that... like " Ohh so Zero wants Yuuki to contain him?! What is he hinting at...?" x3 But that's just me... But now that I actually think of it, he was probably just trying to hint at how he still hated all purebloods and their evil controlling nature. Yuuki did look kind of blank faced when Maria asked about stealing him away... but I bet inside she was just a bit jealous. ;3 Plus, Yuuki ducking and hiding in the window was so cute! ^^ She was afraid that he would see her...why? She likes him. That's how any girl in love would act around the "unattainable guy". I know, I've been there... She probably thinks " Oh, he doesn't want to see me... he's with Maria." Then he offers her his blood... because he sees she is weak, and he knows Kaname has temporarily abandoned her. She's embarrassed...she doesn't want to to do it, and she's afraid to see what he feels about her because she ASKS him specifically NOT to think of anything else for a moment! I thought that was ridiculous... but then Zero says nothing she sees would affect the way she thought about him... And it showed the old Yuuki, trapped like that because that's all Zero wants to remember her by... I think that Being away from him has made Yuuki realize she really does need Zero. He has always been there for her since childhood and has always wanted t protect her from that sinister Kaname Kuran. He knew he was evil from the start. He had perfect reason to not trust him. And i can see why he would be angry at Yuuki's foolish decision to go with him... He probably thought she would join up with all his evil plans..but no, Yuuki is too innocent and Kaname can't be bothered...remember "she would just be an obstacle", those words came directly from Kaname's mouth. And then after the blood-drinking scene when Yuuki smiled and patted him on the back and talked to him for a mere...idk a minute? Afterwards she was really embarrassed and was wondering if all conversations would be so difficult with him now... She wants to be close to Zero again, and I think that she does love him and rely on him. But she doesn't know if he will ever accept her completely again for who she is. Whether anything romantic happens between them or not is entirely Zero's choice, in my opinion. His actions are perfectly justifiable. He has always cared for her and she runs off with that adorable... If she ever decides she really wants him more then Kaname ( which i hope she does) then Zero has to be the one to forgive her. And i know it will be hard for him...

knightmare wrote: Ah by Yuuki's standards, yes, I agree. She wanted to emulate her parents as a child

Every child who’s growing into a healthy and loving family emulates the relationship of its parents. It’s totally normal. Actually such children make very successful relations as grown-ups.

and yume satisfied her and what she understands as love comes from that.

So Yuuki has a really perfect and healthy example for how a loving couple should be, that’s why Yume satisfies her. XD

Which is exactly why I don't think she understood her attachment to Zero as love originally,

Oh! when a child has a very nice model of how a romantic relationship would be then becomes dense and can’t understand the romantic feelings of a boy!? Or you mean that because she had a specific pattern in her mind (Yume) she didn’t understand that her attachment to Zero was love? Cuz apparently neither of the above stands any ground … Yuuki had no memory of her past … she grew up practically from point-zero as a human! And while she had no memory … while she had no pattern in her mind from her parents’ relationship or Yume … while she was a human and Kaname a vampire which means they were very different … while she lived under the same roof with a human boy viz the same as her >>> still … she fell in love with Kaname … in a free humanish world she fell IN LOVE with the vampire Kaname … that’s why I’m saying that romance/love/eros do not require thinking but feeling … it comes natural like the air you breath …

but between Zero's revelation of his feelings and Kaname's explanation about needing a beloved's blood to be satisfied, she's come to understand that she needs Zero in that way, but she still can't acknowledge love because she's not free to choose him.

But she was free to choose him and apparently with your logic she should have chosen him since he was a human/equal/friend/compatible blah blah blah … But no … either as a human, either as a vampire her choice was Kaname XD. Again, romance/love you do not have to understand it … you feel it! Or else people with mental retardation could never fall in love cuz of their disability to analyze/understand what love is …

And what is attachment? what is this unbreakable bond to Zero that she spent a year trying to deny herself?

An attachment has also Rido with Kaname and unbreakable you know …

She's crying as she's telling Kaname this and asking in spite of this, can she stay with Kaname.

Why she’s doing that? Is she a masochist? Even IF her attachment was romantic one still she says that she wants to be by Kaname’s side for ever … and Kaname says that this is the very proof that she loves him …

Yuki cannot be both satisfied with and without Zero.

But she could be satisfied by having Zero in her life as a friend/brother/ally and Kaname as her lover … XD

With regards to the fangs theory, no one including Kaname ever said she needed to use her fangs to gain satisfaction, its only equated with being childish to not use them. the only speech on fangs is using them to get what you want, as yuuki says in 73.

Haha nice lol.

So what Yuuki meant? She wanted blood and she wanted to take it by using her fangs … and as I had said in our debates for chapter 73, her mentality was in question … something that proven to be accurate by her cue in chapter 74 >> my mind cooled down.
Now according to your interpretation Yuuki was expressing her desire to devour with her fangs Zero’s blood to satisfy herself no? So for Zero applies the norm but for Kaname not?… hahaha

Even if she was or wasn’t referring to Zero, still doesn’t mean that in order to be satisfied she wanted to use her fangs? If not, then why didn’t she say I want Zero’s blood but even if I drink it with straw/cup I’ll be satisfied? Hahaha
Why Zero in the 1st arc was s@cking Yuuki’s blood with his fangs and not in a cup (as someone suggested as an option for Yuuki lol) but he bit her despite the fact that she was a human?

Also in the last chapter Yuuki says “At that moment I bit into Zero's neck with my fangs, all of sudden my head cooled down.” >>> she didn’t even catch to take his blood and only by using her fangs her head cooled down … which practically means that is a necessity for a grown-up vampire to use the fangs, or else could drive nuts.

That’s why Yuuki was on the edge of madness when she was at the mansion cuz she refused to use her fangs cuz obviously she received blood but only by drops. So why to be in that state since blood was received?

> Kaname: “If it was anything else I would of course wait for you as long as it takes … but this is one thing that can’t go on …”

> Kaname: “Why you go on refusing yourself even when the animal inside you is this starved for my blood Yuuki?”

http://www.mangareader.net/104-2178-28/vampire-knight/chapter-50.html
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2178-29/vampire-knight/chapter-50.html
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2178-31/vampire-knight/chapter-50.html

But I think you’ve got it wrong from the beginning>>>

no one including Kaname ever said she needed to use her fangs to gain satisfaction, its only equated with being childish to not use them.

Kaname says that is childish to receive blood without using her fangs cuz this is a procedure that chibi vampires are doing till there fangs grows. Apparently he was referring to her refusal as a childish behaviour and no that it wasn’t essential to use her fangs! Cuz you can’t keep only the part of Kaname’s wording which serves your argument lol >>> “but this is one thing that can’t go on”
<<< this is also supported from the fact that Kaname should awaken Yuuki into her true nature when her spell start to break, cuz if not her fangs would eat her from inside and in the end she would end up mad. (<< another relation between fangs and madness)

The problem with Yuuki was that despite the fact that she had a grown-up body her mentality as a vampire was stuck into her six years, when naturally she received blood by kisses and drops I suppose cuz her fangs wasn’t developed. Her growth as a vampire stopped but her body didn’t. The gap of the ten years, where under normal circumstances she would grown as a vampire it was replaced by humanish education and breeding.
So when she turned in a night back into her true nature she had a grown-up body, with needs and desires that an adult vampire has, but her mentality hadn’t keep the same pace. That’s why I said previously >>>

The first time she used her fangs was after her awaking … she hadn’t the space to think, she acted driven from instinct and from feelings that had overwhelmed her … no thoughts >>> no mind traps, no guilt, no humanish “ethics”. She was completely in her vampire nature instinctively … hence her feelings, her wants, her acts were genuine there …

>>> cuz obviously she had fangs and usable ones …

So if on the above situation added and Zero’s cruel rejection of her nature it is understandable why it was her mind which was creating problems to her. Zero was identify with her humanity in Yuuki’s head. She was hurting cuz they were enemies just because she was a vampire-PB. So as long as she could keep her humanish traits she could keep the part of her that Zero didn’t hate.

Furthermore the lack of the blood which a vampire desires could drive him/her nuts. Rido’s case, Shizuka’s case after she lost her servant with who she was in love, vampire-Yuuki’s statements “If you desire him, it’s ok to eat all of him you know, OR if you don’t eat the thing you desire you will end up going mad…”

As I told you before the fact that a vampire desires to devour (with the fangs I suppose) her/his lover to the very limits of her/his life even if you think that such a desire is unhealthy isn’t in VK cuz don’t forget that they are not humans but beasts with wild instincts … It’s also hinted that a vampire who lose her/his partner wants to die etc etc … (Juri and Haruka’s case could also apply here … cuz they thought to die/sacrifice themselves prior Rido’s attack, but probably they’d do it together …)

Other examples related with the fangs and the satisfaction:

> “the sound I made when I sucked your blood … while that sound is running through my ears you’ll never be safe around me”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2064-22/vampire-knight/chapter-4.html
> “if you hear the sound of Kaname sama drinking your blood, then for sure you’ll feel ecstasy”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2066-22/vampire-knight/chapter-5.html

Really I’m feeling that I state the obvious here …

In general the elements love/passion/desire/blood/using fangs/devour all of you/satisfaction/madness/lovelorn/desertion are all affiliated in vampires’ world cuz we are talking about a bloody world hence everything have to do with blood which is received by using the fangs …

So how can you exclude the possibility that Yuuki should use her fangs to satisfy herself? Apparently she should use her fangs:
a) for not driving nuts …
b) to satisfy herself … her wild nature lol.

Note that I’m not suggesting that the ONLY problem that Yuuki had and concluded that she can’t be fully satisfied, was the fact that she wasn’t using her fangs. Obviously her problem had and an emotional root >> Zero’s hate/rejection, and her humanish breeding which resulted to not want to use her fangs and satisfy her vampirish nature. The chibi vampire inside her was “screaming” to set it free and to let it grow!
Therefore a part of the equality that Yuuki had in her mind is related with her vampirism >>>
“Equals huh? For ten years I never thought that we could be equals. I could only admire him from afar. I kept telling my self that was enough.” >>> What was the reason that she thought she could admire him only from afar? Wasn’t the fact that she believed they were different species? Didn’t she distance herself on purpose after the incident with Ruka? You see, again her past as a human was creating another problem. But eventually the last statement we have from Yuuki was >>>
“Finally I faced him as an equal …” >>> so IMO a part of that equality we saw it in the 2 last chapters >>> the chibi vampire inside her has finally grown and was demanding to take blood using her fangs >>>

"At that moment I bit into Zero's neck with my fangs, all of a sudden my head cooled down. I had just used my fangs to bite a person whom I had never intended to wish for his blood." (<< an accurate translation of that portion).

Plus the fact that she wants to do her job as a PB Kuran!

Yuuki's confession was cruel and selfish and she lets Kaname think its about love, if its not, then its even more cruel and selfish to allow him to think so if he's mistaken.

Actually Kaname was pretty cool about her “confession” and I suspect because he tasted her blood and probably knew what she really had in her heart. But he played along in Yuuki’s guilt trip in order to unburden her … he gave her an outlet.

(if not then, then certainly in 73 when she reaffirms that and calls her confession cruel).

In which translation calls her confession cruel? Cuz as far as I know she calls her “confession” to Kaname about her attachment to Zero childish/selfish and terrible thing … >>> which could be interpret as a regret or even as an acknowledgement that she was exaggerated …

knightmare wrote:

sweetsolace wrote: Also I think its considered Kaname and Yuki are officially in a pureblood relationship, I recall reading somewhere in the manga that the role of a pureblood's mate is quite important for the survival of both, and they generally feed on each other when available.

Not really, Isaya drinks from his servants since his wife is long gone and the other pureblood heads, Hanadagi and Hiou also seemed to be alone. Kaname spent a lot of time along before he meet the hooded woman.

I agree with sweetsolace here … a PB without his/her mate is a miserable creature and his/her fate is:
a) madness
b) slumber >> which is a way of resignation from life
c) withdrawal from life …

So Isaya became a spectator in the sidelines and lived with no purpose … a really sad existence. Also we do not know yet exactly his circumstances … but apparently he was just breathing … you can’t call that the joy of life I suppose…

Hanadagi chooses slumber for 500 years and so Hiou … and Hanadagi’s servant says >>> “when they are so worn out that everything seems to turn brittle and fall apart in their hands …” they chose slumber. I don’t think that she depicts a colourful life here … And again we do not know anything for their lives …

Ouri’s case … as it seems despite the fact that he had Sara there was no love hence consents to his death.

Kaname isn’t representable case cuz he had no attachment and love into his life hence he could sustain by taking blood from humans using syringes but again he is depicted as a desperate being who was wandering around without any purpose. The hooded woman “mocked” him by saying he was fool to believe that he could go on like this.
But Kaname’s case is a very good example to prove otherwise …
As it seems he wasn’t in love with the hooded-lady cuz apparently he was able to continue with his life without her blood for many centuries after her sacrifice as it’s hinted. But again he also chose slumber eventually for an unknown reason but definitely a devastating one …

In conclusion … for PBs is essential to have an attachment in their lives in order to maintain their longevity. This attachment can be translated into a goal (Sara’s case to be the queen) or to love for someone in particular viz a mate. If they lose their companion in life (meaning after they had one) usually are choosing one of the options I said above.

My interpretation is that Yuki has no hope for a romantic relationship, she won't think about it, all she will confirm is that she believes Zero has no feelings for her, so the door is closed on that and the best she can hope for, is allies once more.

Why she has no hope for romantic relationship??? Could it be cuz she already has one in her life? When someone has a relationship that cherish is not open to other directions, except if is a “player”. XD

I already thought that Yuuki believed Zero had no feelings for her, 71 confirmed it. her interactions with Zero since re-meeting have been defined by how yuuki think Zero has defined their relationship, cordial enemies, except for 60 where she let herself unconsciously go, a scene full of UST.
.
.
After she realised that zero was in love with her, yuuki has never indicated that she doesn't reciprocate those feelings or that his feelings are unwanted. when kaname says half her heart belong to Zero, she denies that he could be ok with that, yuuki misses opportunity after opporturnity to close the door on a zeki romance repeatedly. It is as much about what isn't said, as what is

Yuuki believed that Zero hates her nature … his confession was enough to know that he loved her as a person.
Yet the enemies’ status is that what it hurts her … “I don’t wanna be enemies with you … wasn’t there any other solution?” >>> she doesn’t cry for a lost love but for a lost friend/beloved person there. Anyway we’ll never agree on that.

But there is another logical explanation for Yuuki’s behaviour. Let’s make the hypothesis that she has no romantic feelings for Zero still:
- She wouldn’t be hurt from his words and actions? We could say that she met a small death there …
- Would she want to discuss his romantic feelings if she had no intention or wish to answer them? Wouldn’t feel awkward after his confession?

In fact she would have the exact same behaviour and in the case that she wasn’t in love with him. << This is also hinted again in the last chapter when she asked him not to think anything … why? Your interpretation I suppose is that she didn’t want to confirm that he still loves her because she doesn’t want to face this possibility. But again the same could easily apply and if she has no intention to answer these feelings hence and avoid the subject in order to nullify the implications <<< she wants to start anew from the beginning … from the moment she first met him as a child, meaning that in a way wants to “erase” their past and by this way to “erase” the hurt which brought the enemies’ status and the confession as well.
IMO her stance indicates rejection to his confession or else she would like to start over, not by erasing but by including … On the contrary in Kaname’s case she wanted to start over by including all that she learn for him >>>

“There is no way we can be separate like this … I can’t stand this … Let me go … He said that we’ll go through a long journey together… and after I thought I would be moving forward from now on with him… And this time I want him to engrave the time we have been spending together in his memories”

>>> she was ready to move forward with him and now that they are separately wishes for him to engrave all their time they spend together ... Why? Maybe cuz she doesn’t want to forget her or lost track?

So the difference between the two starts I think is pretty clear …

the Zeki relationship embraces the style of the series, that which hino loves and beats us over the head with, ambiguity and mystery.

Except from the fact that you compare two different things such as romance with the action part, how can you exclude the possibility that there is a lot of mystery in Yume that hasn’t yet revealed? There is a lot hints concerning Yuuki and Kaname that are still a mystery >> mirrors, butterfly wings, the key … ???

Also, Yuki is not making efforts to establish a romantic relationship, she's merely claiming a foot in the door, like Sari said.

Yuuki IS in a romantic relationship already you know … So have you ever consider that she’s not making any effort to establish a romantic relationship with Zero for that reason? And what foot?

Zero's stance is the logical one, why does she need him if she has kaname? Maria says the same thing. "she just does" is not an adequate enough excuse because they do not both fit in her life that way, there is overlap because it goes beyond friendship.

Apparently Zero doesn’t think as Maria or you though … Cuz he offered to help Yuuki even if it’s for their common interest … ergo in a way he accepts that she needed him since Kaname couldn’t help her.

Oh and I see lots of hopes invested in Maria … Such an EROS and needed a push from a third wheel??? Hm …

Relationships don't define how love should be depicted in vk,

Neither the one-sided loves can define the depicted relationships …

You cannot judge yuuki's feelings for zero as romantic by definition of a relationship, yuuki's not in that position to express such a sentiment to him as compared to one would in a relationship and the circumstances are far different than how it was with Kaname, so you need to compare how people are when they love one another but cannot always express it.

But in all the examples you brought there is no doubt that there is romantic feelings, even if these feelings are one sided … We and the characters know pretty well what they feel … their romantic feelings are visibly, so we have a pretty good sample for how Yuuki should feel/act IF she was IN LOVE with Zero. With whom you can relate Yuuki???
Furthermore a person in love expressing the romantic feelings in the same way aside from the object every time. Sure could be some differences but how different could a person be??? What I mean is that Yuuki even if she falls in love with another person still she’ll keep some traits …

But obviously since you don’t accept that Yuuki is in love with Kaname, nor that their relationship is romantic and healthy you don’t see Yuuki’s way for falling in love, hence you don’t expect to see the same traits in Zero’s case … Very convenient POV I shall say … maybe Shiki and Rima is the trade mark of romance in VK after all … tsk too bad that Hino didn’t gave them more time-screen …

No, Rido had an obsession with Juri, said he wanted to eat her whole, long after she was dead and also wanted to replace her with her daughter who looked a like, which I call unhealthy love.

Rido end up having an obsession with Juri … he had an unhealthy love yes, but not because he wanted to eat her whole, but because he couldn’t take her blood hence to tame his love/pathos/thirst for her.

Vampires wish, to eat all of their loved ones doesn’t indicates unhealthy feelings or relationship if there is one, cuz apparently they don’t actualize it … is an evidence of how much in love they are!

But if their feelings/love do not answered then yes they are running the danger to end up mad like Rido or Shizuka but this is not absolute … they can withdraw as I said above … But this seems to be only a PBs’ trait … we don’t have an example of lower vampires … and I mean how they end up in life. Probably they do not have the same fate due to their shorter life span …

Haruka and Juri were couple so they end up fine … (I mean their relationship) XD

If you don’t accept that, and still believe into unhealthy POV then obviously believe that Zero’s love/feelings for Yuuki were unhealthy as well or the relationship that they could build up would be unhealthy too … So he would be much better if he doesn’t have her in the end I guess …

I think you'll find doubts about their own pairings on both ships. Zeki's who don't believe Zeki will come to pass and Yume's who don't think Yume canon will last and both thinking the other pairing will come to pass. And then there are those that don't think that either ship should survive.

Ofc but you misunderstood my original point … I wasn’t talking about the end game cuz apparently none can be certain or absolute for the end, except from the author … I said that I didn’t come across with none Yume who don’t believe that their ship EXISTS whereas are lot of Zeki that can’t state in absolute way that Zeki ship exists … (ambiguity blah blah blah)
I think what I said is totally different from what you’ve interpret …

Zero&Yuki: A beautiful and great friendship. And this is no a small thing. There are friends as important as love and often, friends are more reliable.


I'm too lazy to write something different, so I'll quote myself:

Matsuri developed these points in Yume:

a) Yuki is not on the same level than Kaname. This is shown in many ways: Kaname-sama, Kaname-senpai, Kaname-oniisama. Yuki said she wants to be on the same level as him.
Now, she will fight against him. That, to me, is the way Matsuri found to solve two problems:
- Kaname should reflect on how he built the society of vampires. It is very central (a monarchy).

- Yuki will fight against the objectives of Kaname. She will leave to assume a submissive posture. And that's one way of looking at him on the same level.

b) Matsuri said that Yuki and Kaname were brothers. Later this statement was denied. Obstruction resolved.

c) When Y left with Kaname, there was the bitter taste of blackmail. "If you go away, I'll kill you. Or you will kill me with your own hands"
In this chapter (74) that stain has been cleaned, i because Kaname said that Yuki is free to follow her own path.
Matsuri, little by little, doing Yume become authentic. She is eliminating the main questions surrounding this couple.

And finally, the thirst question: Yuki´s thirst can be interpreted as the need she has to resume the relationship she had with Zero, "the need to pick up the pieces that were broken"

Anyway, for me, Matsuri is still ambiguous, but I really see a major evolution in Yume.

What bothers me immensely is that I see no alternative (love) to zero. An acceptable alternative. Maria could be better developed, but she is acting like a silly fangirl (may be just to annoy Yuki, so ...). This leads me to believe that Yuki will always be the eternal beloved ... Since I think she has a poor personality, it upsets me greatly

Ok, Perhaps, I´ll be wrong. In fact, the chances are good considering the sneaking suspicion that I have, because sometimes I think someone is torturing Matsuri and forcing her to write the story. Sometimes she is so hesitant.

I have to admit that the relationship between Zero and Yuuki is more and more interesting lately. Their attitude to each other is no longer so innocent and clear like before. The talk they had while Yuuki has been drinking from Zero was really piquant, there was so much anger, distant,passion and love with it that I was really fascinated.

Akaruisama wrote:I have to admit that the relationship between Zero and Yuuki is more and more interesting lately. Their attitude to each other is no longer so innocent and clear like before. The talk they had while Yuuki has been drinking from Zero was really piquant, there was so much anger, distant,passion and love with it that I was really fascinated.

i agree with that im very excited to see where Hino is planning to go from where the to had left off.

ambi9942* wrote:

Akaruisama wrote:I have to admit that the relationship between Zero and Yuuki is more and more interesting lately. Their attitude to each other is no longer so innocent and clear like before. The talk they had while Yuuki has been drinking from Zero was really piquant, there was so much anger, distant,passion and love with it that I was really fascinated.

i agree with that im very
excited to see where Hino is planning to go from where the to had left off.

Exactly why I'm jumping back on Zeki ship. But I doubt I'd be disappointed if Yume is endgame, I'm not that invested in either pair. As long as the remaining story is well developed and not turning into some kinda of soapy drama, we're good to go. But with Kaname making his appearance, I sense more exciting plots coming up.

it is a bit early to speak about it, their relationship is very ambiguous, and never was obvious only friendship otherwise this drama would not have this interest and readability, but in my opinion they both keep their feelings ocult

nina wrote:
But she was free to choose him and apparently with your logic she should have chosen him since he was a human/equal/friend/compatible blah blah blah … But no … either as a human, either as a vampire her choice was Kaname XD. Again, romance/love you do not have to understand it … you feel it! Or else people with mental retardation could never fall in love cuz of their disability to analyze/understand what love is …

We're talking manga. Half the romance shoujo's wouldn't exist if the girls understood their feelings of love, the cliche is, they don't, they're either stupid or they have reason not to. No she wasn't free to choose Zero, 47 was her finally understanding that he loved her all along, but her being a vampire meant she wasn't right for him. Before that she had no clue. Its not until 51 that she faces up to what she feels for Zero which leads to her belief that she needs Zero's blood to satisfy her thirst since she's can't be satisfied without her beloved's blood. its not simply that at that point in time, she's not satisfied, but that its Zero she concludes that she needs.

She's crying as she's telling Kaname this and asking in spite of this, can she stay with Kaname.

Why she’s doing that? Is she a masochist? Even IF her attachment was romantic one still she says that she wants to be by Kaname’s side for ever … and Kaname says that this is the very proof that she loves him …

Well, no, she doesn't want to be with him forever. But yes, just still that this all implies its beyond friendship.

Vampires wish, to eat all of their loved ones doesn’t indicates unhealthy feelings or relationship if there is one, cuz apparently they don’t actualize it … is an evidence of how much in love they are!

To be honest, I think the desire to devour is comes from loneliness and while its borne of love, it still has nothing to do with satisfaction.

"is it so wrong?...so wrong to yearn to for someone to snuggle against just because its so lonely to live forever? The thought of living fills with one with loneliness and love...it makes you yearn to devour, and to indulge in those feelings and life itself...let it all slide down your throat...the 'me' who thinks vampiric thoughts without all her heart...is 'you'...and yet..."
"yes...I'm lonely...and that makes me want to cuddle up to him....the feelings that he has for me fill me with sadness and love...I want to...pierce that pale and beautiful neck...and savour his crimson blood, so thick with his feelings for me...."
yuuki in 51 associates the desire with loneliness and in 66 she's worried about the distance thats between her and kaname.

Kaname says that is childish to receive blood without using her fangs cuz this is a procedure that chibi vampires are doing till there fangs grows. Apparently he was referring to her refusal as a childish behaviour and no that it wasn’t essential to use her fangs! Cuz you can’t keep only the part of Kaname’s wording which serves your argument lol >>> “but this is one thing that can’t go on”

Well, there was no reason to quote it, I was demonstrating Kaname's line of reasoning. He doesn't mention satisfaction the reason to use her fangs, nor states that she needs to use her fangs when she brings up the issue herself to resolve it.
"I'm willing to put aside everything else...until you become the person you wish to be. But this I won't allow...Yuki use your fangs to get blood...you are no longer a child.
I wonder why the beast within you craves my blood so much."
So, in the statement above, the reason Kaname gives above is that she can't go on not using her fangs because she is no longer a child. If there is anymore to it from that, a physical problem with an adult drinking like a child, its not stated. Vampire children don't actually drink blood, they absorb energy, so he is in fact stating it is childish behaviour to simply lick blood. And in the last statement, he wonders why she's so hungry for his blood, but he's not thinking of any connection to her fangs causing this. The fact that Yuuki think she only needs a little blood in 74 to satisfy her to gain control, implies that how much blood she gets, isn't the issue.

It is shown it is not necessary to drink actually blood:
- vampires have created blood tablets and are used instead of drinking blood
- purebloods sleep for hundreds and thousands of years, they need blood upon awakening, stronger the longer they sleep, but 50 years doesn't do much to them.
- the fanbook states vampires don't drink blood for sustenance. They drink blood because they want to. (I think they've just made assumption, which means they make stuff up in the fanbook)
nor with fangs
- kaname injected himself with blood for an unspecified period
All the statements are related to vampires going mad with thirst, not mad because they don't use their fangs to get the blood. You're mixing the instrument they use and the medicine. Using the fangs as an instrument only makes the difference whether as to whether they are passive or active drinkers.

Definitely no proof Vampires do not go nuts without their beloved blood, as shown, Isaya is very sane. Shizuka was not actually insane (that was slander), she was angry and insane enough to kill Zero's parents because they killed her beloved, not because she couldn't drink his blood. Otherwise she spent 4 years with Ichiru and she was sane.

So there's as yet, still no connection between using your fangs as the only way to satisfy yourself with your beloved's blood.

<<< this is also supported from the fact that Kaname should awaken Yuuki into her true nature when her spell start to break, cuz if not her fangs would eat her from inside and in the end she would end up mad. (<< another relation between fangs and madness)

And yet this has nothing to do with actual fangs and using them. Rido was talking metaphorically when refering to the fangs, as she would have had no actual physical fangs. As stated by Rido, specifically the issue was Yuuki awakening with her memories as a vampire, turning a dream into a nightmare. Rido says that she would have gone insane by injesting Kuran blood as a human and been better off as a mad human.

Actually Kaname was pretty cool about her “confession” and I suspect because he tasted her blood and probably knew what she really had in her heart. But he played along in Yuuki’s guilt trip in order to unburden her … he gave her an outlet.

with an extreme statement that she had to kill him instead, this measure of this level of response reflects the severeness of her desire, as she accepted it.

In which translation calls her confession cruel? Cuz as far as I know she calls her “confession” to Kaname about her attachment to Zero childish/selfish and terrible thing … >>> which could be interpret as a regret or even as an acknowledgement that she was exaggerated …

Sorry, "selfishly confessed a terrible thing to him". Regardless, Yuuki is still letting Kaname be misled (or so she thinks according to you) and never corrects it. She wouldn't need to be forgiven if she "cleared" things up. Because it is true, and her "selfish desire shouldn't be condoned".

So Isaya became a spectator in the sidelines and lived with no purpose … a really sad existence. Also we do not know yet exactly his circumstances … but apparently he was just breathing … you can’t call that the joy of life I suppose…

A beloved is apparently one way to be happy in life, to continue to desire to live, this is not the only way, as Sara states in 56. Isaya wasn't miserable and he certainly wasn't ready to die, he's an example of someone surviving on their own for the last 200 years. One might wonder why his wife chose to sacrifice herself and turn their offspring human and the circumstances around that, its not a simple equation of pureblood + pureblood = everlasting happiness. Either way, the point is, none of that has to do with feeding each other and no official claims of this, just theory.

My interpretation is that Yuki has no hope for a romantic relationship, she won't think about it, all she will confirm is that she believes Zero has no feelings for her, so the door is closed on that and the best she can hope for, is allies once more.

Why she has no hope for romantic relationship??? Could it be cuz she already has one in her life? When someone has a relationship that cherish is not open to other directions, except if is a “player”.
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Based on my interpretation, no. my interpretation is that she is with kaname cos she loves him (read: not *in* love), he's tasty and doesn't want to be alone as per 51 and she's following this through making a life with him. Her reasoning for Zero is that he doesn't love/want her and she has promised to run from him forever.

But there is another logical explanation for Yuuki’s behaviour. Let’s make the hypothesis that she has no romantic feelings for Zero still:
- She wouldn’t be hurt from his words and actions? We could say that she met a small death there …
- Would she want to discuss his romantic feelings if she had no intention or wish to answer them? Wouldn’t feel awkward after his confession?

Yuuki chooses to then think he has no romantic feelings and chooses to pursue friendship without considering the impact on him? I don't really like thinking of Yuuki as such as character, not when she cares about not hurting Zero, who acknowledges when she's been selfish towards Kaname at least. But as a girl who thinks she can have both Kaname and Zero then, needing both of them, when Zero at least, thinks she only needs Kaname, thats again, selfish and thoughtless. She should want to ask him and at least ask if he doesn't need blood anymore, but right now she's over sensitive to him. Far more careful not to cross boundaries than she was when they were children, where she still bulldoze her "caring" onto him, instead she's following his lead on what he wants.

the Zeki relationship embraces the style of the series, that which hino loves and beats us over the head with, ambiguity and mystery.

Except from the fact that you compare two different things such as romance with the action part, how can you exclude the possibility that there is a lot of mystery in Yume that hasn’t yet revealed? There is a lot hints concerning Yuuki and Kaname that are still a mystery >> mirrors, butterfly wings, the key … ???
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I'm talking about treatment, the treatment of the relationship is mysterious and ermbraces ambiguity. Kaname is a mystery character, with mysterious plan and ambigious motivations. Yume's relationship couple are overly obvious, Yuuki's feelings are obvious and stated outright at the beginning, kaname's as well. Mirrors & butterfly wings btw aren't a mystery, the mirror is the same as any and all other images with hints in them.

Also, Yuki is not making efforts to establish a romantic relationship, she's merely claiming a foot in the door, like Sari said.

Yuuki IS in a romantic relationship already you know … So have you ever consider that she’s not making any effort to establish a romantic relationship with Zero for that reason? And what foot?

The foot being that they no longer are just enemies.

Apparently Zero doesn’t think as Maria or you though … Cuz he offered to help Yuuki even if it’s for their common interest … ergo in a way he accepts that she needed him since Kaname couldn’t help her.
Oh and I see lots of hopes invested in Maria … Such an EROS and needed a push from a third wheel??? Hm …

well Eros is sexual love, though I can interpret what you're trying to get at. Well as they say, the course of true love never runs smooth. Using a third party is a good way to provide some clarity that readers don't pick up on themselves, like pointing out the fact that Zero doesn't actually hate all vampires, aido is also used like that with his provocative words to Zero. Kaito too, will point out things too.

Zero doesn't understand what Yuuki wants from him, his response to her saying that she wanted to talk like they used to, was that she has gone crazy and she needs blood to keep control for their mutual interests. Zero being willing to help Yuuki is a separate issue from him believing that she actually *needs* him. Right now, as he sees it, right now, Yuuki needs blood.

But in all the examples you brought there is no doubt that there is romantic feelings, even if these feelings are one sided … We and the characters know pretty well what they feel … their romantic feelings are visibly, so we have a pretty good sample for how Yuuki should feel/act IF she was IN LOVE with Zero. With whom you can relate Yuuki???

but how is there no doubt? how do they differ from Zero and Yuuki? Most of the examples are primarily about defending and protecting the other characters, which Yuuki does repeatedly for Zero, Shizuka chose the path of least pain for Ichiru as she saw it, Shiki and Rima spend all their time together.

Even though Zero loves Yuuki, he is confused why Yuuki goes to such lengths for him when she doesn't have to care about him that much.

Furthermore a person in love expressing the romantic feelings in the same way aside from the object every time. Sure could be some differences but how different could a person be??? What I mean is that Yuuki even if she falls in love with another person still she’ll keep some traits …

Because Yuuki wouldn't tell Zero that she likes him but insist he sees her as a pet repeatedly. she wouldn't need Kaname to confront Zero and get an honest answer out of him. She wouldn't say that he loves her, but there are other things mixed up in it. She wouldn't coo about how beautiful Zero is, because she's comfortable with his looks. She doesn't need to say to Zero that she'd do anything for him, because she doesn't treat Zero in the same way as Kaname and its not just about her infatuation with Kaname, but because she is not friends with him. There are some things that will stay the same, she does blush for him and give him intense looks,

But obviously since you don’t accept that Yuuki is in love with Kaname, nor that their relationship is romantic and healthy you don’t see Yuuki’s way for falling in love, hence you don’t expect to see the same traits in Zero’s case … Very convenient POV I shall say … maybe Shiki and Rima is the trade mark of romance in VK after all … tsk too bad that Hino didn’t gave them more time-screen …

If you don’t accept that, and still believe into unhealthy POV then obviously believe that Zero’s love/feelings for Yuuki were unhealthy as well or the relationship that they could build up would be unhealthy too … So he would be much better if he doesn’t have her in the end I guess …

Ofc but you misunderstood my original point … I wasn’t talking about the end game cuz apparently none can be certain or absolute for the end, except from the author … I said that I didn’t come across with any Yume who don’t believe that their ship EXISTS whereas are lot of Zeki that can’t state in absolute way that Zeki ship exists … (ambiguity blah blah blah)

Well, its a poor way to state it. A ship is a ship until its sunk, therefore exists, Zeki exists by virtue of its potential. by your standards, lots of people believe in "non existent" ships until they are canon, because until then, nothing is technically concrete. in any case you've denied simple statements like Zero being Yuuki's beloved and in her heart because you want to see "stronger" ones using words such as "like" and "love", but clarity like this will s.crew over the LT, until then, yuuki can sit happily in ambiguity land.

Howl4fun wrote:Knightmare, you have some of the best posts. Fully agree with you.

For Zero, Yuuki or both?

If you mean by who's feelings showed to possibly be stronger for the first time it was Yuuki. With Zero, I think it was when he watched Yuuki and Kaname dance/Kaname hug Yuuki with a really sad face.



I'll be paying more attention to my life now however, what with the terror actions that just happened in my country so.. I'll be taking a break from these forums. I wish everyone luck with further discussions.

Οκey, my consolidations about your countrie's tragedy...unfortunatelly all around the globe the messages are not good...

Back on the topic, I shall continue in general...so we agree (I say that Zekis-Yumes in general) that during Yuuki's life there was a period in her life that was totally unaffected by a romance influence towards Zero and that their relationship during that period was clearly platonic. It has a meaning to see there that in Yuuki's inner thoughts THAT Period is reflected; apparently we can not judge her from her sayings but what about her inner thoughts and feelings;

http://www.mangastream.to/vampire-knight-chapter-79-page-18.html

why in Yuuki's mind are the first images important for their relationship?
there new start is based on her first encounter/the beggining of a friendship with Zero? where are the crucial romantic scenes between them?

so how is Hino representing "change", "romantic evolution" to their relatioship? or isn't she?

juliet wrote:
http://www.mangastream.to/vampire-knight-chapter-79-page-18.html

why in Yuuki's mind are the first images important for their relationship?
there new start is based on her first encounter/the beggining of a friendship with Zero? where are the crucial romantic scenes between them?

Because its the beginning of their relationship and a very important moment. Starting over usually means going back to the beginning. Its not clear at all what yuuki is thinking, since there are other things going on, but perhaps as she's thinking she needs to start all over again in winning over Zero. The first time she met Zero, she bulldozed her way in because he needed help and she needed to help someone, but this time she's going at Zero's pace.

so how is Hino representing "change", "romantic evolution" to their relatioship? or isn't she?

Not change, progress. Their relationship will always have friendship as a major element to it, so change from that isn't an option. But the relationship was not *just* friendship though it should have been (Yuuki was in love with someone else), but because of the ambiguity, Yuuki was not closed off to the idea of something more.

howl4fun wrote:Sweet: thanks for being so predictable, lmao. I just knew you would crack somewhere as staying nice towards a ZEKI deems impossible for you, even when it's completely unprovoked. wow. It's a good thing you can laugh at ZEKI now, we'll see how long that'll last

so you have nothing to counter to that? which means I am right.

knightmare wrote:Ah by Yuuki's standards, yes, I agree. She wanted to emulate her parents as a child and yume satisfied her and what she understands as love comes from that. Which is exactly why I don't think she understood her attachment to Zero as love originally, but between Zero's revelation of his feelings and Kaname's explanation about needing a beloved's blood to be satisfied, she's come to understand that she needs Zero in that way, but she still can't acknowledge love because she's not free to choose him.

even if she emulated her parents she couldn't have remembered how love was like when her memories were erased and she even forgot how to eat a pudding. She had every other chance to rediscover the essence of love there.
And I always believed that true love is just something you feel, it doesn't have to originate from something. So far Yuki doesn't look like she realized "true lov" in Zero, instead she kept wishing their relationship back in the first arc as friends.

And what is attachment? what is this unbreakable bond to Zero that she spent a year trying to deny herself?

the attachment is the four years they've spent together, I recall juliet mentioned that Yuki thought she was always there beside Zero, to help him, she treats him like a younger brother and now he suddenly declared to kill her and become enemies. These are real conflicts that exists and it obviously negates the idea of love when she in herself is conflicted because of this.

Yuki cannot be both satisfied with and without Zero.

because she has conflicts with him.

this is what eventually led to the conclusion that she needed his blood to be completely satisfied as her loved one. She's crying as she's telling Kaname this and asking in spite of this, can she stay with Kaname.
you see yuuki as satisfied with kaname's blood, but many don't...and she didn't say she was. yuuki has always craved kaname's blood, at one point it was the only blood she wanted, Kaname even wonders why she craves his blood so much and in 51 she's thinking about how much she wants it and this is before she stated she wasn't satisfied by kaname's blood, so stating it after the fact doesn't mean anything has changed in her satisfaction and problem means that has nothing to do with satisfaction. the argument here is yuuki is making a conclusion on what will satisfy her based on what she wants in her heart, the blood doesn't answer something she doesn't already know.

and does this make any sense according to what we saw from Yuki after she took Zero's blood? she had virtually no reaction apart from the expected, Satisfaction. It can actually go both ways

Satisfaction - from sating her thirst, just like eating food when one is hungry > is supported when she said "At that moment I bit him with my fangs, all of sudden my head cooled down. I had just used my fangs to bite a person whom I had never intended to wish for his blood.". its quite clear what she means here. And I don't think she has any reason to be in denial when she already has a reason to "not intend" to take his blood because of her promise.

Satisfaction - completing part of her heart > this was never stated anywhere in that chapter, even if it is its just an assumption

Yuuki's confession was cruel and selfish and she lets Kaname think its about love, if its not, then its even more cruel and selfish to allow him to think so if he's mistaken. To get this straight: Yuuki is taking responsibility for the cruel confession about the attachment in her heart and needing the blood of someone who romantically loves her (not returned), whom she hasn't tasted. but none of that discussion has been about Zero feelings for her, nor accounts for yuuki's belief that zero must have discarded his romantic feelings for her after a year (if not then, then certainly in 73 when she reaffirms that and calls her confession cruel).

Let's consider the fact that Yuki is pretty extreme with her love for Kaname, even to deem herself unworthy for being kissed by him. She has inferiority issues.
considering this point of view, I have no doubts she would also act extreme in treating "desiring Zero's blood" as some form of disloyalty that may someday injure Kaname, but she had never stated that she loved Zero actually. She only said she desired Zero's blood = loved one. And frankly there are many loved ones, as shown when she desired Yori's blood.
She says its cruel and selfish desire to want Zero's blood while wanting Kaname's blood simply because it is. But I think she would've used a stronger word or emotion if she meant that she also loves Zero, being extreme with how she views their love, but to me the scene added to chapter 73 just looks like she wanted Zero's blood and that was selfish.

Not really, Isaya drinks from his servants since his wife is long gone and the other pureblood heads, Hanadagi and Hiou also seemed to be alone. Kaname spent a lot of time along before he meet the hooded woman.

he drinks from her to view the memories he missed over the centuries while he's sleeping. He was a pureblood who likes being a "spectator" and I assume this is what kept him going.
The circumstances of Hana., Hiou, and kaname were vague, but it was stated a few times especially between pureblood couples like Ouri and Sara that a pureblood who lives alone or has no loved one has more chance to find their existence meaningless and therefore more willing to accept death
http://www.mangareader.net/104-40425-11/vampire-knight/chapter-56.html
Kaname spent a great deal of time being alone but what happened before that? What happened after that? no one knows.

Oh definitely true, its not immediately visible

hm.. it is not visible, not immediate. But I assume to go that far one must have read between the lines to get past all the obvious details.

My interpretation is that Yuki has no hope for a romantic relationship, she won't think about it, all she will confirm is that she believes Zero has no feelings for her, so the door is closed on that and the best she can hope for, is allies once more. From a readers perspective it does look like this is fabricated, but its based on understanding the character and narrative reasons for bringing such details to light. I already thought that Yuuki believed Zero had no feelings for her, 71 confirmed it. her interactions with Zero since re-meeting have been defined by how yuuki think Zero has defined their relationship, cordial enemies, except for 60 where she let herself unconsciously go, a scene full of UST.

After she realised that zero was in love with her, yuuki has never indicated that she doesn't reciprocate those feelings or that his feelings are unwanted. when kaname says half her heart belong to Zero, she denies that he could be ok with that, yuuki misses opportunity after opporturnity to close the door on a zeki romance repeatedly. It is as much about what isn't said, as what is. All the characters make good use of silence and Hino's favourite weapon to keep things ambiguous.

she actually already KNEW his feelings for her waay back in chapter 48 when he kissed and hugged her. But she also knew they were enemies. And what did she choose to resolve? She wants to resolve the enemies part and be back when they were friends. This has always been on her mind ever since. Chapter 71 actually showed her trying to face this conflict as it is, but as it turns out she can't deal with it and insists they wanna be friends again.
But Yuki did nothing for the feelings he had shown herself except show some awkwardness. She never returned her feelings. So until now its one sided love. Her feelings to care for him doesn't indicate love, since its always what she showed towards him when they were humans. Ergo, nothing changed. She just wants it back.

If you're dismissing the ambiguous stuff as unromantic, when yuuki finally admits it with clarity, you will complain that it came out of nowhere unless you are open to it possibly being of a romantic nature. Anyway, if anything, the Zeki relationship embraces the style of the series, that which hino loves and beats us over the head with, ambiguity and mystery.

it is like juliet said, it fails to convince. Everything is behind the screen, nothing is clear, everything is ambiguous. What's the big secret? It's actually been known time and again and just the fans seem to be interpreting it in a very optimistic fashion that denies certain implications that go against it. Yuki doesn't even SHOW the change that should come over her personality IF she does love Zero back, she never showed change, in fact the change that went over her looks like its coming from someone who's sorry for what happened or something that was between friends rather than someone who realizes she loves him. She is still the same Yuki who was friends with Zero.

Also, Yuki is not making efforts to establish a romantic relationship, she's merely claiming a foot in the door, like Sari said. Zero's stance is the logical one, why does she need him if she has kaname?

but what if she's NOT interested in establishing romance? so far she has only shown interest in returning to the way they were before. she has not indicated more than that. Her attitude after the bite was even awkward, as if she had done it to someone she just met.

I still don't see how all this ambiguity will someday turn into a giant spectacle of love, some parts of it doesn't match with how love should be pictured in Yuki's point of view, for me it matches with friendship

knightmare wrote: We're talking manga. Half the romance shoujo's wouldn't exist if the girls understood their feelings of love, the cliche is, they don't, they're either stupid or they have reason not to.

Hm … but I remember you vividly to discard the mangas’ cliché as concerning VK, as the importance of first kiss for example … Flexible viewpoints I shall say …

Not to mention that she had NO problem to understand HER feelings for Kaname. So her stupidity applies only for Zero’s case?
Yuuki’s stupidity isn’t questionable hahaha is there. But her stupidity was about to understand the feelings which have had Zero and Kaname for her not the other way around.

No she wasn't free to choose Zero, 47 was her finally understanding that he loved her all along, but her being a vampire meant she wasn't right for him. Before that she had no clue. Its not until 51 that she faces up to what she feels for Zero which leads to her belief that she needs Zero's blood to satisfy her thirst since she's can't be satisfied without her beloved's blood. its not simply that at that point in time, she's not satisfied, but that its Zero she concludes that she needs.

1. She was free to choose him prior her awakening. The fact that she didn’t know Zero’s feelings why should be an obstacle to fall in love? We’re not falling only for someone who has the same feelings for us … example Zero. He fell in love with her even if he knew that in her heart there was another man. So IMO your argument goes out of the window based on real life and on Vk as well. And as I said before according to your logic about how romance should start, she should already being in love with Zero based on their compatibility blah blah. So again your aspect it’s proven unbacked.

2. The fact that she was a vampire why should mean that she’s not right for him? Zero wasn’t a vampire himself? But the point of her wording was:

“I’m sorry Zero … I’m not the right person … I’m a vampire >> but the vampire is the real ME” >>> and she’s thinking Kaname cuz the vampire inside her knew pretty well with who was IN LOVE with, as we also saw later on. If Zero would have had any chance to be the chosen one that would be IF Yuuki was a human and that not because she loved Kaname less but because in her mind she and Kaname never could be together cuz of their difference. But again she chose to become a vampire in order to be able to be by the side of the man she was in love with …Hm …

3. She concludes that she needs Zero as what? She concludes that her attachment to Zero (which identify with her HUMANITY) doesn’t allow her to be fully satisfied but not that she needs Zero as a lover.

The fact that she wasn’t or thought that she wasn’t satisfied is based on two factors:
a) That she wasn’t using her fangs so either way her thirst was unquenched …
b) The fact that she was refusing to use her fangs is the indication that she didn’t accept her true nature completely… she refused to satisfy the vampire Yuuki for the reasons I said in my previous post. So since she accepted her real self and discards all the compunctions, which were holding her back, the satisfaction part was slowly resolved. No fits since then, until recently …

Well, no, she doesn't want to be with him forever. But yes, just still that this all implies its beyond friendship.

She doesn’t want him forever … then for how much? A few weekends would be enough? Haha …
Again if you want to look that her attachment is beyond friendship you are free to do it. But the fact remains that Hino has put along additional reasons which could explain or resolve her attachment in other ways as well. And IMO she already has started to resolve that issue by Yuuki’s decisions in the last chapters. The point is that cuz of her separation with Kaname we didn’t have the chance to see her resolution in action clearly … we have only her statements and a few actions/reactions from Yuuki. We shall see …

To be honest, I think the desire to devour is comes from loneliness and while its borne of love, it still has nothing to do with satisfaction.
.
.
yuuki in 51 associates the desire with loneliness and in 66 she's worried about the distance thats between her and kaname.

Mmm but you support that Yuuki is not in love with Kaname … Or Zero who expressed the same desire wasn’t in love with Yuuki but it was only infatuation? Plus there is no example in Vk where a mother or a father has expressed such desire for their child … So what kind of love could born such a desire?

Yes the thought “I want to devour all of him/her”, is born from love/eros but still is an indication that the vampire who expresses that wish isn’t satisfied yet for many reasons. The term of satisfaction isn’t only physically but emotionally as well. Yuuki was lonely cuz Kaname was away. Also she hadn’t taste his blood as she should have because she was holding her vampire self back. She was with Kaname but still in her mind that distance she had build was still there and as long she was refusing partly her true self she couldn’t be satisfied. That’s why I insist that the key in all her confusion is the fully acceptance of her true self (<< which in Yuuki’s case was expressed by refusing to use her fangs). She had the wish to devour Kaname because she didn’t let herself to actualize her wishes (<< to drink his blood using her fangs, the equality etc) … But is the evidence that there is love/eros/passion but there are also issues to be resolved …
What I mean is that Juri and Haruka for example could have the same wish in the first period of their relationship or before even being in a relationship, as an indication of their love but since they had a completed relationship they didn’t feel the same urge >> they were emotionally satisfied ... Yume wasn’t in that stage.

Zero expressed that urge because was about to lose his love meaning that this includes the loneliness that you mentioned but plus the fact that he could no longer have her blood to satisfied his feelings for her, not only his hunger for blood.

The same goes for Yuuki … she desired Kaname’s blood to the extent of devour him but she refused to take it properly and for Kaname when he expressed the same urge he was longing to taste Yuuki’s blood for so long (holding himself, suppressed his feelings).

In short such wish is the evidence that there is romantic love involved but why is expressed varies …
Rido >> rejection … so his needs/wants were never satisfied.
Zero >> loss of his love
Kaname >> longing for so long viz he suppressed his feelings …
Yuuki >> refusal … viz she didn’t allow her self to satisfy her needs/wants…

He doesn't mention satisfaction the reason to use her fangs, nor states that she needs to use her fangs when she brings up the issue herself to resolve it.

No he doesn’t mention satisfaction cuz at the time was more essential/urgency for Yuuki to use her fangs to tame her thirst in order to calm down her mind >>> she was driving nuts. The satisfaction comes later like an extra bonus if you like, when a vampire using its fangs.

"I'm willing to put aside everything else...until you become the person you wish to be. But this I won't allow...Yuki use your fangs to get blood...you are no longer a child.
I wonder why the beast within you craves my blood so much."
So, in the statement above, the reason Kaname gives above is that she can't go on not using her fangs because she is no longer a child. If there is anymore to it from that, a physical problem with an adult drinking like a child, its not stated. Vampire children don't actually drink blood, they absorb energy, so he is in fact stating it is childish behaviour to simply lick blood. And in the last statement, he wonders why she's so hungry for his blood, but he's not thinking of any connection to her fangs causing this

*THUD* …
1. The fact that he was willing to let Yuuki all the time she needs for anything else EXCEPT from not using her fangs, is obvious he means that is essential. If you add the picture of Yuuki being in a state of madness you have the whole picture! Her thirst couldn’t be satisfied only by licking >>> driving nuts. Also after she received Kaname’s blood by her spoiled way she ends up biting herself! But after she bit Kaname no such incident. So if she can’t satisfy her basic need how can be satisfied emotionally which is the next step?

2. Why he says that she can’t go on refusing to use her fangs? Why he says that she is no longer a child??? Again if you add on these statements the depictions of the chibi vampire inside her who says that she’s trying to crash it down you’ll have the whole picture.

3. Do you really need an exact statement to accept that??? And you are basing on what your conclusion that chibi vampires aren’t receiving blood but only energy??? Humans are receiving energy by food, vampires from what??? Apparently the human food isn’t enough for them …
What Yuuki means while saying I was taking my life force from Kaname with the depiction of her kissing him on the mouth??? What Kaname was giving to her CPR???





4. And what caused Kaname’s statement that her beast was craving for his blood since she obviously was taking blood by drops???

I rest my case here and I’ll let the readers to have their judgment over your arguments and mine…

The fact that Yuuki think she only needs a little blood in 74 to satisfy her to gain control, implies that how much blood she gets, isn't the issue.

Or … that is convenient for you such interpretation cuz really I don’t see any evidence/hint from the manga that supports your opinion … Please provide the scan or an existed example on which you based your idea …
But I think you mix-up two different things … the basic need for food/blood and the need to be satisfied a vampire emotionally. <<< There comes the quantity. If the need for blood is only for food then most likely a bit of blood is enough … Also any blood of a beloved person is enough to satisfy/tame the basic need for food but apparently not emotionally <<< that only the blood from the lover could do...

How we can distinguish the two satisfactions; from the desire/thoughts behind it… According to you Yuuki has already admitted to herself from chapter 51 that she wants/needs Zero’s blood, which simply means that all this time she should suppress her feelings and her craving for Zero’s blood. So where is her lust? Where is the thought that “I want to devour him????” Why a bit of his blood was enough? Why the moment she pierced with her fangs his neck was enough to cool down her mind???? Why Zero couldn’t get enough from her previously?

"At that moment I bit into Zero's neck with my fangs, all of a sudden my head cooled down. I had just used my fangs to bite a person whom I had never intended to wish for his blood."

How you interpret the above ^^^ portion of Yuuki’s thoughts?

It is shown it is not necessary to drink actually blood:
- vampires have created blood tablets and are used instead of drinking blood

Instead from drinking HUMAN blood actually cuz is a delicacy for them. Where is stated that by using tabs they nullify their need for fresh blood? And why the tabs aren’t effective in Yuuki’s case? And don’t tell me that the reason for her hunger was her emotions for Zero cuz the scene with Yori says otherwise …

So what’s the reason behind? Cuz frankly I’m not convinced myself why her hunger was written all over her face … I still think that there is a hole in Yuuki’s state …

- purebloods sleep for hundreds and thousands of years, they need blood upon awakening, stronger the longer they sleep, but 50 years doesn't do much to them.
- the fanbook states vampires don't drink blood for sustenance. They drink blood because they want to. (I think they've just made assumption, which means they make stuff up in the fanbook)

But PBs when are too long in slumber disintegrates:
- Kaname was in a very incomplete state after his awakening and as he said he was longing to turn into ashes …
- Hanadagi was fine physically but according to Sara’s words he may need blood if he was totally drained.
- Isaya was fine as well and he also could control his hunger better.

Conclusions:
a) Since they disintegrate even if that is very slowly, means that they need blood to sustain
b) The difference between the above cases is the time of their slumber. Kaname’s slumber was very long> Hana’s as it stated 100 years> Isaya’s 50 years.

Also the time-gap that they could hold on without blood is not definite … so I think that varies for many reasons …
So in my understanding what the fan book states/means, is that PBs and vampires do not need Human blood to sustain … they drink it cuz they want to, not because is necessary for their survival <<< and there comes the use of the tabs … Furthermore if we take under consideration when the tabs were developed supports my explanation. The NC was the one who developed further the tabs cuz they would be too near to the temptation >>> human blood from the DC. Kaname says that he was using the tabs (in early form) in order not to kill the human offer.
I don’t find any contradiction here between the fanbook and the story under that light.

- kaname injected himself with blood for an unspecified period
All the statements are related to vampires going mad with thirst, not mad because they don't use their fangs to get the blood. You're mixing the instrument they use and the medicine. Using the fangs as an instrument only makes the difference whether as to whether they are passive or active drinkers.

Kaname is a special case but I’ll use his case anyway for several conclusions.

1. He was taking blood from humans with syringes … what for; if as you stated above PBs doesn’t need blood to sustain? When the hooded-lady found him after he was cast away from the villagers (aka his source for blood) he was on the limits of faint. Also the hooded-woman says that this happened cuz he refused to use his fangs to some volunteers willing to turn into vampires.
http://www.mangareader.net/104-54910-31/vampire-knight/chapter-62.html

Now Kaname was forced to take blood from humans without using his fangs as long as he was at that village, cuz there was no other way or source for blood. His will not to harm any human being, was stronger than the “demon” of thirst. Kaname had tamed his wild nature that’s why I said he is a special case.

But when she offers her blood again she says >>> “drink and don’t tell me you forgot to use your fangs …”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-54910-32/vampire-knight/chapter-62.html

Why she didn’t give him blood using a syringe?

Another point …
“You think that if you do that you’ll manage to fool the demon that thirst is and be able to escape from endangering anyone with your fangs … you’re a fool … there is no way you can do that for eternity …”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-56087-10/vampire-knight/chapter-63.html


Also your POV do not answer to …

a) Why Yuuki was in that state >>>
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2178-27/vampire-knight/chapter-50.html

>>> while she had taken blood by drops/licking >>>
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2178-31/vampire-knight/chapter-50.html

According to you Yuuki should be fine as a passive drinker! Why she is hungry and on the edge of madness??? Why she end up biting herself?

b) Kaname clearly says (and in addition for what I support above for what he was meaning about the significance of using her fangs lol)
“Yuuki you must use your fangs to get blood for youself … You are no longer a child Yuuki”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2178-29/vampire-knight/chapter-50.html

He obviously telling her that her state originated from her refusal to use her fangs (viz she can’t tame her hunger=fully quenched) plus that this procedure is used from children but she is no longer a child.

c) Kaname: “Before I kept you locked up in the place where I slept >>>
http://www.mangareader.net/104-58423-21/vampire-knight/chapter-66.html

>>> … until you learn how to satisfy your hunger on your own … It’s ok Yuuki your biting has become much better”

So really you can still deny the significance of the use of the fangs??? How different you can interpret that line???
He clearly says that in order to satisfy her hunger it was essential to use her fangs !!!!

And what Yuuki replies?? >>> “I guess I must seem like a child to you”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-58423-22/vampire-knight/chapter-66.html

So I’m not the one who mixes the instrument with the medicine … If you like I’ll use your terms … there are medicines which can only be received using syringes because otherwise have not the same results as treatment …

Definitely no proof Vampires do not go nuts without their beloved blood, as shown, Isaya is very sane. Shizuka was not actually insane (that was slander), she was angry and insane enough to kill Zero's parents because they killed her beloved, not because she couldn't drink his blood. Otherwise she spent 4 years with Ichiru and she was sane.

I said there are other outcomes beside madness >>>

nina wrote:
a PB without his/her mate is a miserable creature and his/her fate is:
a) madness
b) slumber >> which is a way of resignation from life
c) withdrawal from life …

Apparently Isaya belongs on the c. category and you/we do not know yet his entire life to come to conclusions …

But Rido turned to be mad cuz of his unquenchable love/lust/thirst.
Shizuka’s insanity was a slander prior lose her lover. Afterwards she lost it … The 4 years she spent with Ichirou do not prove that she was sane simply cuz her actions afterwards have proved otherwise from many aspects …

So there's as yet, still no connection between using your fangs as the only way to satisfy yourself with your beloved's blood.

Whateva …

And yet this has nothing to do with actual fangs and using them. Rido was talking metaphorically when refering to the fangs, as she would have had no actual physical fangs. As stated by Rido, specifically the issue was Yuuki awakening with her memories as a vampire, turning a dream into a nightmare. Rido says that she would have gone insane by injesting Kuran blood as a human and been better off as a mad human

Metaphorically???? Says who? You based again your interpretation on what???
Why his words “If you leave her, then those vicious fangs will start destroying her from inside” should be taken as a metaphor whereas Yuuki’s state when her spell started to break proves otherwise??? What difference would make if her memory turned back while she was a human, if that was the problem? If so a simple explanation would be enough … Do you think that her “madness” was only cuz of the unexplained memories???

If Rido, via Ichirou, had succeed to inject his blood to the human Yuuki prior she awakes as a vampire (<< meaning to be released her fangs, her powers etc) that would turn her crazy. The very proof of this is that Kaname followed the exact opposite procedure … he bit her in order to turn her and then he gave her his blood. Why????
Kaname: “Yuuki is ok now … try to awaken before you’ll be destroyed”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2160-30/vampire-knight/chapter-34.html

He bites her first>>>
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2160-31/vampire-knight/chapter-34.html
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2161-8/vampire-knight/chapter-35.html

>>> her nature transforms >>
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2161-12/vampire-knight/chapter-35.html

>>> and then he gives her HIS Kuran blood with the bloody kiss>>>
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2161-14/vampire-knight/chapter-35.html
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2161-15/vampire-knight/chapter-35.html

Rido: “Kaname chose to make her a vampire first and let her awaken without any pain … Drinking Kurans blood as a human … for her to awaken like that it would have given her more pleasure”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2162-5/vampire-knight/chapter-36.html

So where exactly are you basing your idea that she would remain a mad human IF Rido would have injected into her his blood? I’m basing my argument ON FACTS! You?

This ^^^^ is not enough to prove that Rido’s words were true???

with an extreme statement that she had to kill him instead, this measure of this level of response reflects the severeness of her desire, as she accepted it.

Your answer doesn’t prove that Kaname wasn’t cool about Yuuki’s confession though. Actually he used that extreme phrase to show her that whatever and IF she’ll tell him he would accept it. His statement doesn’t reflect how seriously he took Yuuki’s confession or that he believed her but that he wanted to unburden her from her guilt … Is quite different.

Sorry, "selfishly confessed a terrible thing to him". Regardless, Yuuki is still letting Kaname be misled (or so she thinks according to you) and never corrects it. She wouldn't need to be forgiven if she "cleared" things up. Because it is true, and her "selfish desire shouldn't be condoned".

She didn’t have the chance to do so … for me her thoughts that such statement was selfish, childish and a terrible thing along with her decision not to take blood from anyone else even if Kaname didn’t ask her to is enough acknowledgment that she was exaggerated or she was confused … When she thought that she wants blood we have a depiction of Kaname’s illusion, where he embrace Yuuki <<< this could be an indication that she was thinking from whom wants to take blood.

Plus everything that happened just before they parted or after …

Based on my interpretation, no. my interpretation is that she is with kaname cos she loves him (read: not *in* love), he's tasty and doesn't want to be alone as per 51 and she's following this through making a life with him. Her reasoning for Zero is that he doesn't love/want her and she has promised to run from him forever.

Haha … I know you don’t believe that she is IN love with Kaname … it’s obvious …
So all that Yuuki said thus far for Kaname was a “lie” or an outlet or a cover for her fear not to spent alone the eternity … But when she chose to become a vampire in order to be able to live beside the man she loved she had no such fear … Or Yuuki chose Kaname over Zero over a lie; cuz she knew what this would do to Zero. If so then she didn’t give a damn about Zero which is worse …

And all of that simply cuz an ambiguous statement for the one chunk of her heart… Mmm you know from chapter 51 have passed 23 chapters which contains Yuuki’s progression. Maybe you skipped them?
Really what a waste of time and panels from Hino I shall say not to mention the mock from her part to so many readers!

Oh and Yuuki said that she’ll run away to give a purpose to Zero to go on living … to give him a goal! Not because he rejected her haha really …

Yuuki chooses to then think he has no romantic feelings and chooses to pursue friendship without considering the impact on him? I don't really like thinking of Yuuki as such as character, not when she cares about not hurting Zero, who acknowledges when she's been selfish towards Kaname at least. But as a girl who thinks she can have both Kaname and Zero then, needing both of them, when Zero at least, thinks she only needs Kaname, thats again, selfish and thoughtless. She should want to ask him and at least ask if he doesn't need blood anymore, but right now she's over sensitive to him. Far more careful not to cross boundaries than she was when they were children, where she still bulldoze her "caring" onto him, instead she's following his lead on what he wants.

No … actually says that something is broken and they’re not allowed to return in the past, meaning being exactly as they were. So her resolution is to erase the past and start over from the moment they met for the first time.

I made already the comparison between the two starts in my previous post in order to show what Yuuki means in each case >>>

nina wrote: she wants to start anew from the beginning … from the moment she first met him as a child, meaning that in a way wants to “erase” their past and by this way to “erase” the hurt which brought the enemies’ status and the confession as well.
IMO her stance indicates rejection to his confession or else she would like to start over, not by erasing but by including … On the contrary in Kaname’s case she wanted to start over by including all that she learn for him >>>

“There is no way we can be separate like this … I can’t stand this … Let me go … He said that we’ll go through a long journey together… and after I thought I would be moving forward from now on with him. And this time I want him to engrave the time we have been spending together in his memories”

>>> she was ready to move forward with him and now that they are separately wishes for him to engrave all their time they spend together ... Why? Maybe cuz she doesn’t want to forget her or lost track?

So the difference between the two starts I think is pretty clear …

Your answer do not answer to my argument ... Where have gone all the above Yuuki’s feelings/decisions for her and Kaname? Vanished just because she found Zero? There are plenty indications showing that she still wants the same things…

I'm talking about treatment, the treatment of the relationship is mysterious and ermbraces ambiguity. Kaname is a mystery character, with mysterious plan and ambigious motivations. Yume's relationship couple are overly obvious, Yuuki's feelings are obvious and stated outright at the beginning, kaname's as well. Mirrors & butterfly wings btw aren't a mystery, the mirror is the same as any and all other images with hints in them.

Ambiguity and mystery are two different things … And whereas for Zeki relationship exist two at least explanations, so no mystery but fog, for the wings, mirrors and the key none so far … So the mystery applies to Yume and not to Zeki …

The foot being that they no longer are just enemies.

But she never wanted for them to be enemies … If this is your explanation then is Zero’s foot not Yuuki’s … He changed his stance not her …

well Eros is sexual love, though I can interpret what you're trying to get at. Well as they say, the course of true love never runs smooth.

The term eros distinguishes the love which can have several forms from the romantic love. And who said that Yume love runs smoothly? There were always obstacles not originated from their feelings for each other but mostly from the circumstances … Kaname had to watch her for afar and suppressing his feelings for so long and so Yuuki. Yuuki had so many issues to face until she’s ready to move forward with him (accept her nature=use her fangs, let the vampire grow=equality). And when she was, they separate …

but how is there no doubt? how do they differ from Zero and Yuuki? Most of the examples are primarily about defending and protecting the other characters, which Yuuki does repeatedly for Zero, Shizuka chose the path of least pain for Ichiru as she saw it, Shiki and Rima spend all their time together.

Even though Zero loves Yuuki, he is confused why Yuuki goes to such lengths for him when she doesn't have to care about him that much.

The only doubt is about Yuuki’s type of love for Zero …
- Zero he knows as we know, that was in love with her
- Shizuka wasn’t IN LOVE with Ichirou … she was IN LOVE with Zero (<< is stated in the fanbook as well). She loved Ichirou yes, but not romantically …
- Rima and Shiki are depicted as couple … so where is the ambiguity in their feelings?

Because Yuuki wouldn't tell Zero that she likes him but insist he sees her as a pet repeatedly.

Maybe she wouldn’t tell him but definitely she should thought of it … Then we could talk about tear heart and the resolution of the LT would be based on which man she loves more … Right now there is only one love and one ambiguity which could easily turned into clear friendship without a lot explanations … Whereas the other way around would be very difficult to be explained … Will see…

in any case you've denied simple statements like Zero being Yuuki's beloved and in her heart because you want to see "stronger" ones using words such as "like" and "love", but clarity like this will s.crew over the LT, until then, yuuki can sit happily in ambiguity land.

You’ve deny almost the whole manga except from Zeki moments … I think I have the right to deny something that I do not see … Ambiguity could perfectly exists just to be created the LT and to spicy it … Until it’s proved otherwise … Then you can tell me that I’m in denial if I still will say that there is nothing romantic …
Usually words “love” and “like” have more gravity than the ambiguity … At least in my world and I suspect for many people in this world who are using these words to express their true feelings … I can’t think any other way for Hino to depict eros visibly can you? Oh yes Yuuki’s feelings is only an infatuation. I don’t know an infatuation to remain for 10 years though
And nope … the LT wouldn’t be s.crewed if Yuuki was expressing her romantic feelings for Zero even in her thoughts. Actually that would be progression IF Hino would intent to change course or to show a progression towards romance …

Because its the beginning of their relationship and a very important moment. Starting over usually means going back to the beginning. Its not clear at all what yuuki is thinking, since there are other things going on, but perhaps as she's thinking she needs to start all over again in winning over Zero.

Based on what?

EDIT: Oh sweet I didn't see your post I'll read it and I'll edited my post if I have to

Knightmare wrote:

juliet wrote:
http://www.mangastream.to/vampire-knight-chapter-79-page-18.html

why in Yuuki's mind are the first images important for their relationship?
there new start is based on her first encounter/the beggining of a friendship with Zero? where are the crucial romantic scenes between them?

Because its the beginning of their relationship and a very important moment. Starting over usually means going back to the beginning. Its not clear at all what yuuki is thinking, since there are other things going on, but perhaps as she's thinking she needs to start all over again in winning over Zero. The first time she met Zero, she bulldozed her way in because he needed help and she needed to help someone, but this time she's going at Zero's pace.

so how is Hino representing "change", "romantic evolution" to their relatioship? or isn't she?

Not change, progress. Their relationship will always have friendship as a major element to it, so change from that isn't an option. But the relationship was not *just* friendship though it should have been (Yuuki was in love with someone else), but because of the ambiguity, Yuuki was not closed off to the idea of something more.

Change...progress...we are not going to argue over words (even though I could run you an analysis why it's change and not progress but let's skip it )..the question is towards which direction does she want that progress or change to happen?

Because you say....

Their relationship will always have friendship as a major element to it, so change from that isn't an option.

It should be an option. By now two years in VK time have passed and Yuuki's feelings have not surpassed the friendship attitude? okay we say that she is late in responding in general (no attempt to bash her here, we've seen that she realizes things in slow pace like Zero's feelings for her) but eros/romantic love does not take centuries/ in fact in reality it happens over a week/a month...

Why did Zero's feelings surpassed his logic and he tried to kiss her? why does he confess he wanted her blood just upon separation? these are feelings that overpass logic and a certain attitude...that's romantic love and they surpass the "friendship" boundaries, in fact they did early at the script time. No place to doubt anything.

the more weight there is on that frienship element, the harder it gets to become convincing and to close the time gap..