Eternal Mysteries

Is there something you don´t understand who have bother? Hino have made many mysteries throughtout the whole serie. Let´s try to figure out the mysteries. (It means things we don´t understad through the serie can we discuss here)

if you read around this forum, you can see we are trying to solve some of this "eternal mysteries" ;)

sweetsolace wrote:if you read around this forum, you can see we are trying to solve some of this "eternal mysteries" ;)

I don´t mean the mysteries we are trying to find out noe who have only been here for some time but the mysteries who have been maybe allmost from the start

VampireCythia wrote:

sweetsolace wrote:if you read around this forum, you can see we are trying to solve some of this "eternal mysteries" ;)

I don´t mean the mysteries we are trying to find out noe who have only been here for some time but the mysteries who have been maybe allmost from the start

there doesnt seem to be much mystery in the story that hasn't been covered by some of the topics here.
but maybe you can give an example as a start.

M..let me think of one since the topic is opened some relative few questions that perhaps even remain eternal questions.

1. what happened to Haruka's and Yuuri's parents? Perhaps they were killed at a war? or a vendetta, (perhaps we will never know but again the question how two powerful purebloods were killed remains as a mystery. On the other hand what if they are not killed? but somewhere hidden like in slumber? who knows...another mystery!)

2. What's Kain's curse that he refers over and over again? M...I had guessed immortality but then again perhaps we will never know as he speaks to general about it with only few references here and there. What is this that they all know and we ignore?

3. How did the twin's curse occured? Is it really a curse or is it said so in a metaphor to cover the aspect that hunters are paying the price for the selected genes by not been abling to make normal twins (like some sort of abnormality to their blood)? and if it is a genetical problem does it apply only to hunters or also to vampires?


4. How did the hooded woman die? its not logically supported by what we know and in the manga there is no solid explanation. I had also developped a theory on the issue but Hino makes no further reference, so it might remain to us to explain it and who ever understood, understood.

M...I am out of questions now (I do not refer Kaname-Yuuki there as a past couple) because there are many threads there about the issue...

Juliet wrote: What's Kain's curse that he refers over and over again? M...I had guessed immortality but then again perhaps we will never know as he speaks to general about it with only few references here and there. What is this that they all know and we ignore?

Mmm … IF there is nothing more hidden that concerns ONLY Cross I think his curse it could be the hunters “curse”, viz their eternal obligation to hunt down vampires.
After HW’s sacrifice Kaname said to the potential hunters:

“To every last one of you I give you a role. You cannot run away from your obligations … You will seek bloodshed, just as we have, from a hateful instinct…”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-57201-15/vampire-knight/chapter-64.html

In other words, as vampires have the natural instinct to desire blood the hunters will have the natural instinct to hunt them down …

But Cross at some point, after numerous killings of vampires, got tired of his obligation and thought that if he could kill all the Kurans then he might be free from that curse … he says so to Juuri >>>

“The Kurans are the PBs at the very core of the vampire world … I thought if I could eliminate them … then maybe I would finally be FREE of the TIES that BIND to this FATE …”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2171-17/vampire-knight/chapter-45.html

And then after Juuri’s request he explains how he changed views, viz how he “broke” in his own way that curse>>>

Kaien: “Maybe I was indeed waiting for someone like her, whose’s whispers would make me forget the very meaning of those ties of FATE I feared … Hunting vampires just because we are hunters … viewing them as the enemy just because they are vampires … Those reasons no longer hold a meaning for me…”


Also in his convo with Isaya >>>

Isaya: “Someone unable to live as a human or as a vampire because of the choices made by one’s forefathers. Did you do it cuz you wanted to find a place for yourself or because you believed this would BREAK away THE CURSE over you?”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-47679-10/vampire-knight/chapter-58.html

Choices made by forefathers? … Now that we know the beginning of the creation of the hunters I think he meant the sacrifice of the HW and the choice of the hunters to devour her hence the curse upon them to seek bloodshed eternally …

At least this is what I think about Cross’s “curse” … and maybe is more personalized cuz thus far Cross is the only one of the hunters who believed in co-existence >>> a way to put an end to that curse.

How did the twin's curse occured? Is it really a curse or is it said so in a metaphor to cover the aspect that hunters are paying the price for the selected genes by not been abling to make normal twins (like some sort of abnormality to their blood)? and if it is a genetical problem does it apply only to hunters or also to vampires?

Again with the info we have thus far I think the twin’s curse is the consequence of their dual nature … they aren’t vampires but they aren’t like normal humans as well. They have genes of the HW viz vampire genes and synchronously the instinct to kill vampires …
As Kaname said, the hunters can’t have twin cuz even if they conceive twins the strongest one will devour the other in the womb.
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2163-20/vampire-knight/chapter-37.html

I think this happens cuz of the vampire genes … the strongest fetus “recognizes” the vampirish genes in the other fetus and automatically the natural instinct for hunt is triggered hence the outcome is the strongest to devour the frail one ... if not both of them devour each other. It’s like the first “prey” of the fetus hunter to be his/her twin brother/sister cuz their nature as hunters is stronger than their vampirism ofc. The core of the hunters’ nature is a bit contradictory … they have genes from the creatures that are fated to prey upon …

So if my speculations have any ground then I think that curse can only apply to hunters not to vampires …


Now what about Lily? Do you think there is any mystery? Why is the only horse that can tolerate Zero?
Could Lily be the reincarnation of HW’s white horse and that’s why she loves the pride of the hunters?? O.o Haha … I’m kidding …

1. what happened to Haruka's and Yuuri's parents? Perhaps they were killed at a war? or a vendetta, (perhaps we will never know but again the question how two powerful purebloods were killed remains as a mystery. On the other hand what if they are not killed? but somewhere hidden like in slumber? who knows...another mystery!)

their grandfather was the one making decisions for them (as evidenced in that highschool chapter where he decided to send Juri) I have an idea maybe he's their guardian, and if he is their parents are either unavailable or they're dead.
Other than that not much was known about it.

2. What's Kain's curse that he refers over and over again? M...I had guessed immortality but then again perhaps we will never know as he speaks to general about it with only few references here and there. What is this that they all know and we ignore?

maybe its not a curse. maybe its how he sees his condition.
Kaien is a rare "sample" of a hunter who has more vampire genes than ordinary, causing him to stop aging and granting him powers. At some point he must feel not only his uniqueness but how he is left out from the rest of the hunters who're not like him. He is, in a way, a hunter who has traits of a vampire, like Zero. And its as if he abhors the idea that he is like a vampire, as he wants to kill the root cause of the targets he hunts as nina showed. So maybe he's the one who labeled his condition as a "curse"

it may not mean literally, as for example, Kaien was known as the "vampire without fangs" somewhere in chapter40 , it might mean he's human but with traits of a vampire. or he's a human with more vampire traits but he doesn't have to feed.

3. How did the twin's curse occured? Is it really a curse or is it said so in a metaphor to cover the aspect that hunters are paying the price for the selected genes by not been abling to make normal twins (like some sort of abnormality to their blood)? and if it is a genetical problem does it apply only to hunters or also to vampires?

i think they're separate curses. or not.
the hunter's twin curse only affects hunters who have twins, I share thoughts with nina here:

I think this happens cuz of the vampire genes … the strongest fetus “recognizes” the vampirish genes in the other fetus and automatically the natural instinct for hunt is triggered hence the outcome is the strongest to devour the frail one ... if not both of them devour each other. It’s like the first “prey” of the fetus hunter to be his/her twin brother/sister cuz their nature as hunters is stronger than their vampirism ofc.

it can just be a metaphor to describe whats happening, as they probably dont know how to explain it scientifically, they put it like a curse. And it is like a curse---because they are hunters with vampire traits, this vampire traits are also active in the womb and if twins are conceived they will end up enacting this traits to each other, and only one remains.

But somehow this doesnt seem to justify the other fact: if its vampire traits thats causing twin fetuses to eat each other, then why not for the vampires? surely theirs are more common... but I don't recall any "curse" for the vampires about having twins. Only in the hunter's side.

So makes me suspect something. Maybe it is a curse. If it is a curse, then why does it only affect the hunters? And why twins?
I can understand its affecting hunters, IF this curse is the some as the one where they ate a pureblood.
But twins? What makes the selection so specific as twins? So I feel like this curse targeting hunter twins is related to something in the past, and its written down in history since most purebloods seem to know about it.

As for the curse of the hunters for eating a pureblood to get their powers, we saw in chapter 64 how hunters did eat a pureblood's blood and flesh to gain powers. As you have said the result is probably their curse to have natural instinct to hate vampires. I dont think this "curse" is related to the hunter twin's curse though....

4. How did the hooded woman die? its not logically supported by what we know and in the manga there is no solid explanation. I had also developped a theory on the issue but Hino makes no further reference, so it might remain to us to explain it and who ever understood, understood.

well, she tore her heart and the hunters ate her flesh/blood? LOL I forgot what was discussed here...

Now what about Lily? Do you think there is any mystery? Why is the only horse that can tolerate Zero?
Could Lily be the reincarnation of HW’s white horse and that’s why she loves the pride of the hunters?? O.o Haha rofl … I’m kidding … Razz

i think I remember it said somewhere in the manga that Zero raised lily since she was young thats how they're so close. XD
Lily herself is chaotic and unmanageable, only Zero can tame her. Like master like horse, I guess.

---

i cant think of anymore mysteries but I'll come back if I do

Reading again some fragments of chapter 56

kaname: "My great-grandfather once become the leader of the purebloods...he was the king of vampires"

yuuki: "yes, he did it to stop the fighting"

kaname: "a large number of purebloods died during that battle. you must have studied that alreafy..."

yuuki: "I understand...but that happened thousand of years ago."

1. the first king of vampire was kaname
2. in his conversation with yuuki he's talking about himself *he still play the brother role=kaname the ancestor is yuuki great-grandfather
3. kaname the ancestor=haruka and juuri grandfather*the one who gave permission to juuri to live three years between humans
4. juuri lived 3000 years
Based on the above, kaname didn't entered in slumber 10000yers ago, 3000 years ago he was still awake.

1. what happened to Haruka's and Yuuri's parents? Perhaps they were killed at a war? or a vendetta, (perhaps we will never know but again the question how two powerful purebloods were killed remains as a mystery. On the other hand what if they are not killed? but somewhere hidden like in slumber? who knows...another mystery!)

A good question, what happened to them. Based on what I wrote above kaname is the father of juuri's parents *assuming their parents were siblings*=grandfather

And here start other questions: if kaname had children, his children had children as well, then who's his wife? and why kaname entered in slumber even if he had a part of his family alive?

Now what about Lily? Do you think there is any mystery? Why is the only horse that can tolerate Zero?
Could Lily be the reincarnation of HW’s white horse and that’s why she loves the pride of the hunters?? O.o Haha rofl … I’m kidding … Razz

animals hate vampire or at least animals react violently when they sense vampires-white lily reacted violently when it sensed vampires.
but in the past, hooded woman possesed a horse, no hostility from that horse. and white lily likes to stay around zero, a vampire. white lily has to be the reincarnation of hooded woman horse. then how white lily behavior can be explain

aya-chan wrote:Reading again some fragments of chapter 56

kaname: "My great-grandfather once become the leader of the purebloods...he was the king of vampires"

yuuki: "yes, he did it to stop the fighting"

kaname: "a large number of purebloods died during that battle. you must have studied that alreafy..."

yuuki: "I understand...but that happened thousand of years ago."

1. the first king of vampire was kaname
2. in his conversation with yuuki he's talking about himself *he still play the brother role=kaname the ancestor is yuuki great-grandfather
3. kaname the ancestor=haruka and juuri grandfather*the one who gave permission to juuri to live three years between humans
4. juuri lived 3000 years
Based on the above, kaname didn't entered in slumber 10000yers ago, 3000 years ago he was still awake.

1. what happened to Haruka's and Yuuri's parents? Perhaps they were killed at a war? or a vendetta, (perhaps we will never know but again the question how two powerful purebloods were killed remains as a mystery. On the other hand what if they are not killed? but somewhere hidden like in slumber? who knows...another mystery!)

A good question, what happened to them. Based on what I wrote above kaname is the father of juuri's parents *assuming their parents were siblings*=grandfather

And here start other questions: if kaname had children, his children had children as well, then who's his wife? and why kaname entered in slumber even if he had a part of his family alive?

This is exactly what I said long ago . Kaname is the only great - grandfather of Yuuki . Instead of the usual 4 most people has . I used the same scenes you mention and other ones to reach the same conclusions .

Also I said the pureblood hooded braided lady died long before Kaname enter his slumber . As you said here , Kaname was awake during the time Juuri went to a human school . So most probably Kaname's slumber happened between 1000 to 2000 years before the actual plot in V. K. of the present . This means if Kaname had children with the HW , this happens long before he enter his slumber . Or that he had another woman in his life not mentioned yet as mother of his children .

As you said we have no idea what happened to Yuuki's grandparents . Why her grandfather renounced to the Vampire Throne ? How they died ? Why Rido couldn't be the legitimate heir to the vampire throne nor marry Juuri ? What happened to Kaname's past so terrible that make him enter a slumber .

And the most important of all : who was Kaname's wife and Vampire Queen ? The one who became Yuuki's great - grandmother .

This is where Rido intervention would give us a lot of answers . Because many of these events we have no idea yet involved Rido's knowledge / presence . Rido knows the answer to most of these mysteries . If Kaname would not answer them . Maybe the one to told is is Rido .

From Caela :

Endgame for VK is near, no time left for Zeki: Alright, here I'm forced to bring out something I was keeping for myself. The biggest mystery in VK that must be resolved before ending it is....

Why is Yuuki so important that eleven years ago, Rido killed her parents, ignored Kaname and was AIMING to drink 6 year old Yuuki? Three bigger purebloods (including a powerful ancestor) are better targets than a small pureblood if what you want is pureblood. Yuuki has some ability, power or value that is MORE IMPORTANT THAN BEING PUREBLOODED! I've got no clue, is she also a witch or something? Well, anyways, Zeki has plenty of time.

I know you said this in another thread . But this is actually the most important part of what you posted there .

We have neglected Rido's importance in the plot . Because we are assuming he is death / ghost - like . That he has no actual influence in what is happening .

But Rido is one of the few characters ( if not the only one ) who knows almost everything about Kaname's past . Rido has to know what importance has Yuuki to this Chess game Kaname is playing . What kind of special powers Yuuki have . Because Rido was after Yuuki to devour her not only once ; but twice .

You are kind in the right track when saying Yuuki is a witch . Because her mom was a pureblood vampire specialized in casting spells . Yuuki has similar special powers as her mom . But the one power that has to be unique to Yuuki's is the ability to break any spell done . Not matter who did the spell . If this is Yuuki's true strength , imagine how powerful a pureblood who obtain this ability from her would be . A pureblood who can't be attacked with spells as he / she could dispell them in a second . Total inmunity to magic if he / she wants . Even the possibility of making anti - vampire weapons useless against him / her . Of course I'm speculating . But if this is only a quarter right , if Rido absorbs Yuuki power , he could become one of the most powerful ( if not the most one ) pureblood alive .

The main mysteries for know tend to involve Kaname . But why Yuuki is so important to V. K.'s plot is by far a more mysterious one .

Rido will become a wild card in the last quarter of V. K. The player we all subestimate , but ends making a winning play near the end . So don't forget Rido is alive .

Another thing I need to say : I don't think Rido is the final White Chessmaster in V. K. He is a very important piece . But I don't see him as the kind of man who has enough patient nor strategic intellect for being behind all the main plot in V. K. Rido has to be used by another person . Most probably a pureblood how want power , but knew he / she didn't have enough power to rise over the rest of vampires . He / she used Rido because he / she knew Rido could use anti - vampire weapons . A very handly killer , with a lot of ambition . Who had being tossed by his own family due to unknown reasons so far .

The one who has to be the White Chessmaster has to be an older vampire . Most probably born some time before Kaname's slumber . So he / she has to be at least 2000 years to qualify .

mariangie wrote:

aya-chan wrote:Reading again some fragments of chapter 56

kaname: "My great-grandfather once become the leader of the purebloods...he was the king of vampires"

yuuki: "yes, he did it to stop the fighting"

kaname: "a large number of purebloods died during that battle. you must have studied that alreafy..."

yuuki: "I understand...but that happened thousand of years ago."

1. the first king of vampire was kaname
2. in his conversation with yuuki he's talking about himself *he still play the brother role=kaname the ancestor is yuuki great-grandfather
3. kaname the ancestor=haruka and juuri grandfather*the one who gave permission to juuri to live three years between humans
4. juuri lived 3000 years
Based on the above, kaname didn't entered in slumber 10000yers ago, 3000 years ago he was still awake.

1. what happened to Haruka's and Yuuri's parents? Perhaps they were killed at a war? or a vendetta, (perhaps we will never know but again the question how two powerful purebloods were killed remains as a mystery. On the other hand what if they are not killed? but somewhere hidden like in slumber? who knows...another mystery!)

A good question, what happened to them. Based on what I wrote above kaname is the father of juuri's parents *assuming their parents were siblings*=grandfather

And here start other questions: if kaname had children, his children had children as well, then who's his wife? and why kaname entered in slumber even if he had a part of his family alive?

This is exactly what I said long ago . Kaname is the only great - grandfather of Yuuki . Instead of the usual 4 most people has . I used the same scenes you mention and other ones to reach the same conclusions .

Also I said the pureblood hooded braided lady died long before Kaname enter his slumber . As you said here , Kaname was awake during the time Juuri went to a human school . So most probably Kaname's slumber happened between 1000 to 2000 years before the actual plot in V. K. of the present . This means if Kaname had children with the HW , this happens long before he enter his slumber . Or that he had another woman in his life not mentioned yet as mother of his children .

As you said we have no idea what happened to Yuuki's grandparents . Why her grandfather renounced to the Vampire Throne ? How they died ? Why Rido couldn't be the legitimate heir to the vampire throne nor marry Juuri ? What happened to Kaname's past so terrible that make him enter a slumber .

And the most important of all : who was Kaname's wife and Vampire Queen ? The one who became Yuuki's great - grandmother .

This is where Rido intervention would give us a lot of answers . Because many of these events we have no idea yet involved Rido's knowledge / presence . Rido knows the answer to most of these mysteries . If Kaname would not answer them . Maybe the one to told is is Rido .

From Caela :

Endgame for VK is near, no time left for Zeki: Alright, here I'm forced to bring out something I was keeping for myself. The biggest mystery in VK that must be resolved before ending it is....

Why is Yuuki so important that eleven years ago, Rido killed her parents, ignored Kaname and was AIMING to drink 6 year old Yuuki? Three bigger purebloods (including a powerful ancestor) are better targets than a small pureblood if what you want is pureblood. Yuuki has some ability, power or value that is MORE IMPORTANT THAN BEING PUREBLOODED! I've got no clue, is she also a witch or something? Well, anyways, Zeki has plenty of time.

I know you said this in another thread . But this is actually the most important part of what you posted there .

We have neglected Rido's importance in the plot . Because we are assuming he is death / ghost - like . That he has no actual influence in what is happening .

But Rido is one of the few characters ( if not the only one ) who knows almost everything about Kaname's past . Rido has to know what importance has Yuuki to this Chess game Kaname is playing . What kind of special powers Yuuki have . Because Rido was after Yuuki to devour her not only once ; but twice .

You are kind in the right track when saying Yuuki is a witch . Because her mom was a pureblood vampire specialized in casting spells . Yuuki has similar special powers as her mom . But the one power that has to be unique to Yuuki's is the ability to break any spell done . Not matter who did the spell . If this is Yuuki's true strength , imagine how powerful a pureblood who obtain this ability from her would be . A pureblood who can't be attacked with spells as he / she could dispell them in a second . Total inmunity to magic if he / she wants . Even the possibility of making anti - vampire weapons useless against him / her . Of course I'm speculating . But if this is only a quarter right , if Rido absorbs Yuuki power , he could become one of the most powerful ( if not the most one ) pureblood alive .

The main mysteries for know tend to involve Kaname . But why Yuuki is so important to V. K.'s plot is by far a more mysterious one .

Rido will become a wild card in the last quarter of V. K. The player we all subestimate , but ends making a winning play near the end . So don't forget Rido is alive .

Another thing I need to say : I don't think Rido is the final White Chessmaster in V. K. He is a very important piece . But I don't see him as the kind of man who has enough patient nor strategic intellect for being behind all the main plot in V. K. Rido has to be used by another person . Most probably a pureblood how want power , but knew he / she didn't have enough power to rise over the rest of vampires . He / she used Rido because he / she knew Rido could use anti - vampire weapons . A very handly killer , with a lot of ambition . Who had being tossed by his own family due to unknown reasons so far .

The one who has to be the White Chessmaster has to be an older vampire . Most probably born some time before Kaname's slumber . So he / she has to be at least 2000 years to qualify .

Sorry for not noticing the thread earlier Marie (I was too focused on shipper wars on other threads at the time It does wonders on my stress levels, like skyrocketing hypertension, clearly that is my fault ).

About the timeline of events that occurred during Kaname's original reign as Vampire King and the info on his descendants:

I'm looking forward to that information being because there are alot of holes in our understanding of Vampire/Hunter history that Kaname was directly or indirectly involved in that would allow more of the structure of Vampires and Hunters to make sense. Kaname looks like he helped start the Hunter Association, so its hard to keep your eyes off of him. (He is always doing things for three or more reasons...ambitious guy! I really should start my day asking, "What would Kaname do?")

About Yuuki: Glad you agree about Yuuki's value .

Spoiler:

About Kaien Cross' curse: (1)From the hunter perspective, being a vampire is sinful. (2) In the special chapter, it opens with Kaien talking with a young Yagari who rudely asks, "Are you a vampire?" (3)The same special chapter talks about how Kaien gets tested for vampire fangs and blood lust. (4) Nina also brought up a quote from a conversation between Isaya and Kaien, where Isaya says something about Kaien's curse being the fault of the decisions of his forefathers.



To be a hunter, one must be related to a hunter. Kaien's apparent immortality is confusing if he is only a hunter. Is it possible he is part vampire? At least the child of a hunter and noble vampire? (The immortality makes more sense if he is part pureblood) IMO (in my opinion) Kaien's curse is that he faces the possibility of becoming a vampire.

Edit: Maybe he is a child of a hunter and one of Isaya's children, the purebloods who were turned human. As I recall it, the vampire genes are sealed but they are still there.

Kaien also has a weird unexplained power that he used to stop Yuuki from flying away with her wings in chapter 68.


Being able to stop a pureblood means that Kaien's mystery quotient is increasing, even if my theory does not hold true.

Cursed Hunter Twins: same theory. If one ate the other, the combined twin faces the possibility of being a vampire in the future.

This is all unsupported theory. I have no problems with being wrong. Cheers.

Edit: Maybe he is a child of a hunter and one of Isaya's children, the purebloods who were turned human. As I recall it, the vampire genes are sealed but they are still there.

Kaien's situation is weird lets sum it up in few words?

what curse is this that make you (almost) immortal, very powerful but on the other hand they call you "vampire without fangs" and say that its the same case as the Kiryu twins whose blood had been characterized as "sinful?" the same curse makes you want to end it by thinking that if you kill the Kurans that are in the heart of the vampire world, this could end it? more than this your ancestors are to be blamed for their decisions?

Possible ideas?

1. in my opinion of course and I could be wrong exlude the idea that Kaien can be the outcome of a vampire turned human and a hunter because as we saw in Yuuki's case all genes are sealed- normally the combination should not even give us a hunter...but there is a small window there about the human's descendants but again what meaning then the "sealing of the genes" would have?

2. Its the twin curse that seems more possible and the name "vampire without fangs" could take a meaning in this case due to the early stage of "cannibalism" that occurred during the fetus state.

But how is killing the Kurans going to free Cross from the curse as he had said to Yuuri some chapters ago? meaning in what sense would that "free" him or break the curse? can he be referring to his urge to hunt vampires?

if you can think of anything else...

juliet wrote:

Edit: Maybe he is a child of a hunter and one of Isaya's children, the purebloods who were turned human. As I recall it, the vampire genes are sealed but they are still there.

Kaien's situation is weird lets sum it up in few words?

what curse is this that make you (almost) immortal, very powerful but on the other hand they call you "vampire without fangs" and say that its the same case as the Kiryu twins whose blood had been characterized as "sinful?" the same curse makes you want to end it by thinking that if you kill the Kurans that are in the heart of the vampire world, this could end it? more than this your ancestors are to be blamed for their decisions?

Possible ideas?

1. in my opinion of course and I could be wrong exlude the idea that Kaien can be the outcome of a vampire turned human and a hunter because as we saw in Yuuki's case all genes are sealed- normally the combination should not even give us a hunter...but there is a small window there about the human's descendants but again what meaning then the "sealing of the genes" would have?

2. Its the twin curse that seems more possible and the name "vampire without fangs" could take a meaning in this case due to the early stage of "cannibalism" that occurred during the fetus state.

But how is killing the Kurans going to free Cross from the curse as he had said to Yuuri some chapters ago? meaning in what sense would that "free" him or break the curse? can he be referring to his urge to hunt vampires?

if you can think of anything else...

The "Isaya grandchild = Kaien" was first written by Mariangie...I saw it after i wrote that post.....ooops...

Why Kaien would want to kill Purebloods: Hunters mainly kill Level-E's, which can only be made by purebloods. No more purebloods = no more level E's. Vampire hunters now have less work to do. (in theory) Unless part of the curse is falling in love with purebloods...must be some curse.

and about (1) sealing genes:

Does the seal last in the next generation? How strong is that spell? And hunters are part vampire anyway, so a child of a hunter and a vampire-turned-human would be a hunter/vampire hybird. The longevity of Kaien makes me think (1) is the better theory....otherwise more of these hunters-who-devoured-their-twin people would still be alive and be competition for Yagari/Zero/Cross for being the strongest hunter. Also, like in human yuuki's case, she still has an attractive smell to vampires, and such a pureblood-vampire-turned-human might even "attract" a strong hunter. (Maybe the strong hunter parent of Cross was also a Level-D vampire, adding more vampire genes)

(2) twin curse: the "vampire aura" that Kaien has compared to how almost no one seems to acknowledge Zero was a vampire until he killed Rido...makes me think Zero can still project the aura of being human. It is based on impression but, I think with Kaien having a different aura than Zero, that Zero and Kaien had different causes for the "curses."

caela wrote:

The "Isaya grandchild = Kaien" was first written by Mariangie...I saw it after i wrote that post.....ooops...

oooops? I know and I have seen it posted it also before and Nina had mentioned it was well and we had a discussion on it...but since you also mention it...haha..we are going over just theories here...

Why Kaien would want to kill Purebloods: Hunters mainly kill Level-E's, which can only be made by purebloods. No more purebloods = no more level E's. Vampire hunters now have less work to do. (in theory) Unless part of the curse is falling in love with purebloods...must be some curse.

Yes but Kurans do not change humans (from all vampires) at least Yuri was not a subject there that needed to be eliminated...also Cross seeing his main job as a curse? I do not know....when he is attacking Yuri this is very strange because in the same time he was friend with Isaya so his main problem was not the purebloods themselves but something else that we can not guess perhaps at this moment?

so I wonder if this "curse" can be connected with the Kuran lineage?

like we say that if they go the "curse" shall break? anyway..its a very strange phase there.

and about (1) sealing genes:

Does the seal last in the next generation? How strong is that spell? And hunters are part vampire anyway, so a child of a hunter and a vampire-turned-human would be a hunter/vampire hybird. The longevity of Kaien makes me think (1) is the better theory....otherwise more of these hunters-who-devoured-their-twin people would still be alive and be competition for Yagari/Zero/Cross for being the strongest hunter. Also, like in human yuuki's case, she still has an attractive smell to vampires, and such a pureblood-vampire-turned-human might even "attract" a strong hunter. (Maybe the strong hunter parent of Cross was also a Level-D vampire, adding more vampire genes)

I do not know about the sealing of the genes, normally since the offspring of the pureblood turns humans then its logical to assume that he should reproduce as one and the descendants should be human because the genes of the vampires are completely sealed and missing from the parent, that's supposed to be the success of the "spell" i think that no vampires genes can appear there, otherwise there is no reason in the first case. If the genes are supposed to be sealed then how can they be suddenly be activated?

anyway as I said that's fiction here and Hino can alter but to me it would not make so much sense...

but the twin curse is a rare case anyway..but in 10.000 years that passed there have to be families that had twins and the outcome would be a strong hunter> in his way perhaps some families that were the outcome of the twin curse could become more powerful than others and lead the pack. This would make sense because otherwise from where does the stronger vampire occur? its a bit vague there but i try to say, is that the "curse" could serve that purpose but in the long flow of time so that the hunters can survive and become stronger.

(2) twin curse: the "vampire aura" that Kaien has compared to how almost no one seems to acknowledge Zero was a vampire until he killed Rido...makes me think Zero can still project the aura of being human. It is based on impression but, I think with Kaien having a different aura than Zero, that Zero and Kaien had different causes for the "curses."

Yes you are right Kaien's aura can be confused with a vampire's but it was the president association words that connected him with the Kiruy's...so perhaps the timing that you refer for Zero was not the fact that he killed Rido but that he devoured Ichirou? while Kaien was born complete, Zero was not, he became complete later.

Unfortunately no more information there...but the decision that Kaien's ancestors made as referred by Isaya makes me think that Isaya does not refer to the first hunters > this would apply for all hunters but we do not see all others being that occupied with these problem> perhaps Kaien is a child from a pureblood or a vampire with a hunter, therefore he has taken the goods from both words but also does not know exactly where he should stand.

I do not have formed yet a clear opinion about Kaien’s “curse” but there are some similarities with Zero’s situation.

Just to add a few more points that they might be related to this subject.

1. The twins curse seems like a “legend” that it’s unknown for the majority of the vampires and the hunters to its full extent. They seem to have a vague idea about it. But Kaname and likely Rido might know more details … Indications>>
- Asato and the former president (the heads of each society) were wonder why Rido keeps on his side Ichirou … the one of Kiryuu twins.
Asato: “I don’t understand what he’s thinking. Why is he keeping one of Kiryuu twins as his pet?” (to whom Asato is referring to is tad vague but I think he means Rido.)
Former president of HA: “It could be for a silly reason like he had too much time on his hands …” (chapter 38)

From this conversation we can assume that Asato and the hunters’ president didn’t connect Rido’s choice to take on his side Ichirou i.e. they didn’t know details about the twins’ curse?

- But Rido seemed like he knew more, thus he wanted Ichirou … based on what Rido told to Takuma I think he was trying to avoid the effects of this curse >>
Rido: “Zero Kiryuu … Ichirou’s twin … Ichijo do you know the taboo regarding twins born to vampire hunters?
Takuma: “Vampire hunters? … I know how the hunters came into existence …”
Rido: “… but these two (means the Kiryuu twins) are SO DIFFERENT FROM THE OTHERS that it doesn’t matter to them …” (chapter 36)

The above portion is from the official volume but in the scanlations there is more to Rido’s words >>
Rido: “However it doesn’t relate to the two of them BECAUSE THEY DO NOT GET ALONG.”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2162-11/vampire-knight/chapter-36.html

OR >> http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-36-page-12.html

So what Rido meant that they are so different that the curse doesn’t apply on them???
My speculation is that cuz they didn’t have a close relation they wouldn’t result to devour each other which would result to a the most strong hunter. Thus Rido wanted to keep Ichirou close to him as an extra precaution. If so then this might mean that Rido knew more about this curse …

2. Now regarding Kaien …

Kaname: “This is the first time I’ve seen a pair of hunter twins WHO ARE BOTH ALIVE … it’s so rare …”
“Occasionally a twin fetus will devour the ENTIRE life and powers of the other twin in the womb and be born into this world as one of the strongest and most depraved hunters.” (chapter 37)

My understanding is that the rarest case is centralized on that both of them were born ALIVE.
Also Kaien could be a twin that devoured entirely his other half in the womb thus the difference between him and Zero?
Another thing that caught my attention is the characterization of depraved … could this also explains the words of the former president; that Kaien as well as the Kiryuus are sinners since birth?
Because the president speaks in plural >> “one of the filthy beings who are also called vampires without fangs…” i.e. there are more beings like Kaien?

When the president said these lines he didn’t know that Zero had devoured his twin … also since Zero didn’t devour Ichirou in the womb thus they both were born alive he “escaped” from this characterization …

Another point that I found weird is this dialogue >>
Hunter: “Cross! … The president … what’s going on?”
Kaien: “Someone who went the wrong way met his fate … I could have ended up just like him…”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2171-26/vampire-knight/chapter-45.html

How Kaien could have ended up just like the president????

On the other hand though … if Kaien is the exact same “product” as Zero, why Kaname didn’t ask from Kaien to kill Rido? Why he needed Zero?

So I’m thinking that or Kaien isn’t a twin who devoured entirely his other half OR that there is something more in this curse that we are missing … something that is related to the fact that Zero didn’t devour his brother in the womb thus they were born both alive.

Also Kaien could be a twin that devoured entirely his other half in the womb thus the difference between him and Zero?
Another thing that caught my attention is the characterization of depraved … could this also explains the words of the former president; that Kaien as well as the Kiryuus are sinners since birth?
Because the president speaks in plural >> “one of the filthy beings who are also called vampires without fangs…” i.e. there are more beings like Kaien?

Yes the presidents words are exact and give the overall picture, the comparison between the two; "yet you are the same as the Kiryu twins...a sinner since birth, one of the filthy beings who are also called vampires without fangs"...

therefore we can not overview the fact that there is the characterization "sinner since birth"..."same as the Kiryu twins", which can only mean one thing; that Kaien is also a hunter born after devouring his brother and perhaps we have to accept that in general this case is characterized as sinful since Shizuka had also used the same term to characterize Zero's blood...some chapters back...

What I am not convinced yet is if the characterization sinful and "vampire without fangs" was attributed due to the act of devouring the other half, or if that was referring to the act of the ancestors of these lineages that did something special therefore their descendants were sinful since birth and the lineages became rare due to the decisions of the ancestors...

its a small detail there but the president says:

yet you are the same as the Kiryu twins...a sinner since birth

president refers to both> twins...not Zero, and the how are the twins that did NOT devour each other sinners since birth? meaning here the president characterizes Kiryu twins as sinful about an act that had not been committed before birth...?

Another point that I found weird is this dialogue >>
Hunter: “Cross! … The president … what’s going on?”
Kaien: “Someone who went the wrong way met his fate … I could have ended up just like him…”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2171-26/vampire-knight/chapter-45.html

How Kaien could have ended up just like the president????

Perhaps by accepting to take the wrong way? It makes me think that perhaps Kaien could have offers to corporate with evil sources, after all he was quite powerful, and he could certainly be useful for the right reasons to the wrong camp.

On the other hand though … if Kaien is the exact same “product” as Zero, why Kaname didn’t ask from Kaien to kill Rido? Why he needed Zero? So I’m thinking that or Kaien isn’t a twin who devoured entirely his other half OR that there is something more in this curse that we are missing … something that is related to the fact that Zero didn’t devour his brother in the womb thus they were born both alive.

I think the same exactly, that (the bolded part) send a message there...the question is what? and how could Kaname take use of a vampire hunter that did NOT devour his twin?

because at that stage Zero was not as powerful as he is today...despite the fact that he came from a rare line, when Kaname learns that he did NOT devour his other half, then Takuma suspects that Kaname's plan started...so perhaps we should focus on that?
how could a hunter that DID not devour his other half be significant for Kaname and his rescue plan against Rido?

Was Kaname's plan limited to Rido's act or does it stretch until today? How Zero and the twin curse at the past could have influenced his plan after he learned that the twin curse did not apply there as in Kaien's case?

Juliet wrote: What I am not convinced yet is if the characterization sinful and "vampire without fangs" was attributed due to the act of devouring the other half, or if that was referring to the act of the ancestors of these lineages that did something special therefore their descendants were sinful since birth and the lineages became rare due to the decisions of the ancestors...

its a small detail there but the president says:

yet you are the same as the Kiryu twins...a sinner since birth

president refers to both> twins...not Zero, and the how are the twins that did NOT devour each other sinners since birth? meaning here the president characterizes Kiryu twins as sinful about an act that had not been committed before birth...?

I know what you mean. It’s a possibility that we can’t exclude yet since - generally speaking – the hunters with the flow of time seem like they have “lost” the initial focus of their creation. So is it possible that there is a hidden “skeleton” in their history? But if so then probably it’s connected with the Kurans cuz they seem to know more about this curse than anyone else.

However for the time being I’m leaning towards that they are characterized as sinners since birth cuz they were twins. Even if Zero didn’t devour entirely his brother in the womb still he ate half of him. Ichirou on the other hand chose a sinful path by betraying his family for a PB …
From Kaname’s words to Ichirou my understanding is that the twins of the hunters are almost damned to “cannibalism”.
In fact in most cases none of the fetuses will survive. Occasionally will be born ONLY one of them (the strongest but also most depraved hunter) and the rarest case is the Kiryuus who were born alive both of them. And yet we saw their resultant … it’s like they can’t escape from such fate.

Another point which might link Zero with Kaien is that both of them have been chosen from the Kurans for important assignments. How and why Juuri chose Kaien??? What she saw – or knew? – about him that made her to put her trust on him. From their dialogue when Kaien tried to kill Juuri >>

Juuri: “You’ve changed … It’s been a long time Kaien Cross. You’ve become famous. A cold-blooded hunter who has killed scores of vampires…”
(so Juuri knew Kaien for long and before he wasn’t a fearsome hunter???)
Kaien: “The core of vampires … I thought if I killed off the PB Kurans I’d be freed from my obligation…"
Juuri: “I knew you’d say that someday. That’s why I once told you to come with us…”
“With someone like you watching over her … wouldn’t my child be able to attend school? …”
Kaien: “I may have been waiting for her words. Words that countered fate …”

Here Juuri entrusted Kaien with the protection of her precious daughter, something that also Kaname did with Zero later. Both of them –Kaien and Zero – were fated to be the strongest hunters who would shatter countless vampires with no mercy … and yet both of them have been chosen from the core of the pacifism (the Kurans) to “serve” the opposite of their destination!?
Another coincidence or these choices have their roots on this “curse”? Cuz I don’t think that the choice is based only on their raw strength…
And it isn’t contradictory with the characterization of sinners and depraved?

Kaien wanted to kill Juuri for freeing himself from his obligation to kill vampires? But as he said Juuri’s words countered his fate … Could this mean that the path that Juuri showed to him “saved” him? Could this also applying on Zero too in a sense?

Another detail that caught my attention is Takuma’s words to Kaname when Kaname met Zero in Kaien’s house for the first time >>

Kaname to Takuma: “I met the survivor of that incident.”
Takuma: “So the headmaster is taking care of him. Well that’s to be expected."

Why it was expected? Supposedly the closest person to Zero should have been Yagari … his master. So how Zero ended up in Kaien’s care?
One possibility is Kaname’s intervention or another one … could Kaien be related to Kiryuus? Note that his last name Cross isn’t his true name and the info about his past and his origins are almost zero …

Why it was expected? Supposedly the closest person to Zero should have been Yagari … his master. So how Zero ended up in Kaien’s care?
One possibility is Kaname’s intervention or another one … could Kaien be related to Kiryuus? Note that his last name Cross isn’t his true name and the info about his past and his origins are almost zero …

there is an explanation to that point but I am bit lazy to search the volumes now; so if I remember correct, it was Yagari indeed the one that would take care of Zero but due to an incident that had occurred Yagari was not around at that time...I think that he returns when we first see him coming to Cross Academy.

Perhaps he was following Shizuka's lead all of these years trying to find the one to be blamed for Kiruy's death as he says in chapter 10;

"I kept investigating why the Kiryu hunters had to be killed by a pureblood. And when i found out about the collusion between the `senate and the top brass of the hunter society, I realized that what happened four years ago wasn't simply a case of a pureblood going berserk".

And it was Yagari the one who delivers the news that Shizuka is still alive out there so he might be trying to achieve both; spot Shizuka so that he could rise Zero's chances for survival and still investigate the issue to find out more about the senate's interference and the presidents corruption >

it also makes you wonder if there was a lead there that Yagari had and perhaps managed to doubt the official records and move forward investigating the crime, while on the other hand Zero was left with Kaien.

Now why the next hunter who took care of Zero was Cross we can not know; but Cross had already established a relationship there with the Kiruys; perhaps the families were friends in a way or all kids that are to become future hunters develop acquaintances with other hunters from early one or both;

Speaking of Cross, my greatest problem there is to combine Isaya's lines with the president's lines;

Isaya actually tells us that Cross could have been either a vampire or a hunter; "because of what your ancestors did, you are unable to be either fully human or fully vampire...i don't know whether you were trying to find a place for yourself or end the curse on you...but back then you butchered vampires with abandon"...

Isaya does not refer to the hunters, he refers to Kaien...because hunters are humans, their decision back there to take the blood of the ancestor never opened a window there to be fully vampires> as we saw the humans that could not adjust with the blood's altering powers ended up dead...so whatever Kaien's ancestors did was not related to the first hunters>

From special chapter in the volumes the photographer says: And he has barely aged in the last 200 years....so we are not referring to 10,000 back... we must be talking in relation to what his ancestors 230-240 years ago obviously...

and with from the special chapter little Yagari asks Kaien; There still aren't times when you want to drink blood..Are you a vampire? Everybody in the hunter society says that you are..."

And the photographer answers: "As vampire hunters we are all born with some vampire traits to varying degrees. Those traits just happened to come out a lot stronger in him because of [b]certain conditions..."

Which certain conditions? Here is the trick> the twin curse? again the twin curse does not provide the option to a hunter to be fully vampire. (if we take literally but I do not think that Isaya meant it metaphorically when he said that Kaien could not be fully human or vampire)...

so if we follow this logic then it limits down that the special conditions has their origin on what the ancestor's did...> what they did forced a "curse" on Kaien that left him in the middle> so the one parent perhaps a vampire and the other perhaps a hunter...

but what about the twin curse? why is the president resemblance Kaien's situation, actually identifies with the Kiruy's case, mentioning the twins being sinners since birth? is it possible that Kaien not only was the product of the original sin (lets say) of his parents but also had a twin that he devoured since birth? therefore he is born a miraculous vampire hunter? > if he is half-vampire since birth and still devoured his brother then this can bring him perhaps in the same level with Zero...

too exaggerated like a theory?

@ I have more to add here LOL and want to mention Kaien's curse that can be broken with killing vampires until he even though of killing Yori in order to get rid that of that curse, that you referred to Nina, but I am saving it for later...

So i think that the first thing we have to do before making such suppositions about kaiens power and kaname's past is to see the next chapters don't ya think?
hino-sensei was right at making such a history,because kaname had to kill aidou's father to create a situation like:yuuki's distance
being sara's enemy for real
letting the battle be at cross academy
and ending the manga by discovering kaname's secret
after that the manga is over and we have a colorful YUME LOVING ENDING
I LOVE IT!

juliet wrote:

Why it was expected? Supposedly the closest person to Zero should have been Yagari … his master. So how Zero ended up in Kaien’s care?
One possibility is Kaname’s intervention or another one … could Kaien be related to Kiryuus? Note that his last name Cross isn’t his true name and the info about his past and his origins are almost zero …

there is an explanation to that point but I am bit lazy to search the volumes now; so if I remember correct, it was Yagari indeed the one that would take care of Zero but due to an incident that had occurred Yagari was not around at that time...I think that he returns when we first see him coming to Cross Academy.

Perhaps he was following Shizuka's lead all of these years trying to find the one to be blamed for Kiruy's death as he says in chapter 10;

"I kept investigating why the Kiryu hunters had to be killed by a pureblood. And when i found out about the collusion between the `senate and the top brass of the hunter society, I realized that what happened four years ago wasn't simply a case of a pureblood going berserk".

And it was Yagari the one who delivers the news that Shizuka is still alive out there so he might be trying to achieve both; spot Shizuka so that he could rise Zero's chances for survival and still investigate the issue to find out more about the senate's interference and the presidents corruption >

it also makes you wonder if there was a lead there that Yagari had and perhaps managed to doubt the official records and move forward investigating the crime, while on the other hand Zero was left with Kaien.

Now why the next hunter who took care of Zero was Cross we can not know; but Cross had already established a relationship there with the Kiruys; perhaps the families were friends in a way or all kids that are to become future hunters develop acquaintances with other hunters from early one or both;

Speaking of Cross, my greatest problem there is to combine Isaya's lines with the president's lines;

Isaya actually tells us that Cross could have been either a vampire or a hunter; "because of what your ancestors did, you are unable to be either fully human or fully vampire...i don't know whether you were trying to find a place for yourself or end the curse on you...but back then you butchered vampires with abandon"...

Isaya does not refer to the hunters, he refers to Kaien...because hunters are humans, their decision back there to take the blood of the ancestor never opened a window there to be fully vampires> as we saw the humans that could not adjust with the blood's altering powers ended up dead...so whatever Kaien's ancestors did was not related to the first hunters>

From special chapter in the volumes the photographer says: And he has barely aged in the last 200 years....so we are not referring to 10,000 back... we must be talking in relation to what his ancestors 230-240 years ago obviously...

and with from the special chapter little Yagari asks Kaien; There still aren't times when you want to drink blood..Are you a vampire? Everybody in the hunter society says that you are..."

And the photographer answers: "As vampire hunters we are all born with some vampire traits to varying degrees. Those traits just happened to come out a lot stronger in him because of [b]certain conditions..."

Which certain conditions? Here is the trick> the twin curse? again the twin curse does not provide the option to a hunter to be fully vampire. (if we take literally but I do not think that Isaya meant it metaphorically when he said that Kaien could not be fully human or vampire)...

so if we follow this logic then it limits down that the special conditions has their origin on what the ancestor's did...> what they did forced a "curse" on Kaien that left him in the middle> so the one parent perhaps a vampire and the other perhaps a hunter...

but what about the twin curse? why is the president resemblance Kaien's situation, actually identifies with the Kiruy's case, mentioning the twins being sinners since birth? is it possible that Kaien not only was the product of the original sin (lets say) of his parents but also had a twin that he devoured since birth? therefore he is born a miraculous vampire hunter? > if he is half-vampire since birth and still devoured his brother then this can bring him perhaps in the same level with Zero...

too exaggerated like a theory?

@ I have more to add here LOL and want to mention Kaien's curse that can be broken with killing vampires until he even though of killing Yori in order to get rid that of that curse, that you referred to Nina, but I am saving it for later...

Why Zero was brought to live with Kaien Cross instead of Yagari ; is one of the reasons I suspected for a while Kaname had to have some kind of involvement in the events of Zero's past . Because as Kaname being friend of Kaien ; he could make some moves to make Kaien push the hunters to put Zero in Kaien's charge instead of Yagari's . Who was the original legal guardian to Zero if anything happened to his parents . Kaname needed Zero as near to Yuuki as he could be . For Kaname turning Zero into Yuuki's shield and knight against Rido . Making the hunters decide to bring Zero to live at Kaien's home was exactly what Kaname wanted .

Kaname giving Bloody Rose to Kaien ; with instructions to make it available to Zero in the future , probably was part the same plans for using Zero as Yuuki's protector .

About Kaien Cross :
At the start of the first arc , I got the idea of Kaien Crosss being older than he wanted to say and not being a regular human . Specially this scene of him and Zero of chapter 50 .

From Chap 50 , Viz shojo Beat ed . :

Zero break a wall of his apartment . Points Kaien with Bloody Rose .

Kaien : " I ... I'M SORRY TO HAVE COME IN UNANNOUNCED ! By the way , Kiryu ... "

Zero : " You ... "

Kaien : " I built this apartment ages ago ... so it may fall apart if you aren't careful ... OKAY ? Be gentle . "

Zero : " It's a pain in the neck ... distinguishing you as human because you have a faint vampire aura . "

Kaien : " ... "

After chapter 58 and bonus chapter of the photos ; I got a theory of which could be the origin of Kaien Cross . In short , I believe Kaien could be the son of a vampire hunter and a pureblood vampire - turned - human .

The long version :

What I know of Kaien Cross so far ?

Kaien is a human vampire hunter who was the most powerful one in history ( maybe until recent Zero events ) . With powers no regular hunter has . As no aging after becoming an adult and extended life span . ( Not sure if his life span is really long or if he is actually inmortal - but inclined to the later . ) He has more vampire genes than any hunter alive . Don't requires blood nor have fangs . Smell similar to a vampire . Required changing his identity every several years to avoid suspicion from the rest of human society ( and maybe from the majority of hunters also ) . Real age range around 250 years old ( Kaien stop aging around him turning 25 years old . If he aged as human by his first 25 years . Kaien has : 25 ( years Kaien aged + 200 ( years than the bonus chapter said Kaien was studied by the hunter's association . ) + 25 years ( the interval between the scene Yagari first met Kaien and the present of V. K . ) = 250 years . Vampire Hunter Association is studying him at least once per year for the last 225 years .

What I speculate here is Kaien is the son of Isaya's daughter , who become a human after her mom made the spell to turn a vampire human and a vampire hunter . This hunter could be ( or not ) part of the Kiryu family . Isaya's daugther could have felt in love with a human hunter . She knew her love was out - limits . As a human and a vampire love was destined to disaster . Her mom could want her happiness and decided to sacrifice herself to make the girl human . Isaya's daugther became human and marry her vampire hunter lover . After a while , she got pregnant with twins . Kaien devoured his twin intra - uterus . Born with both his powers and his twin . At some time , Kaien discovered he was not a regular vampire hunter as presenting changes not usual in humans . Maybe the non - aging thing . Because he not only got a lot of vampire genes from his hunter dad . But the supposed dormant genes of her ex - pureblood mom genes became active . He got mad and decided to take revenge in the ones he believed were the cause for his bad luck : vampires , specially pureblood ones . Until he met Juuri and changed his ways .

If my theory is true , Kaien is some kind of dramphir ( half vampire / half human ) . Not true vampire nor human . Zero is a different case . As Zero was born human and was turned by a pureblood vampire to a vampire . But they appear to share the hunter's twin curse .

I could not discart the original last name of Kaien is Kiryu . If this is true , Zero and Kaien are far relatives . But probably not direct ones . So I don't expect Kaien and Zero sharing Isaya's daughter as relatives .

@Maria nice theory! You have included everything, putting an end to our … so we do not need to choose if Kaien was a twin or if he is the offspring of a hunter and a PB turned human haha. He can be both!

Juliet wrote:@ I have more to add here LOL and want to mention Kaien's curse that can be broken with killing vampires until he even though of killing Yori in order to get rid that of that curse, that you referred to Nina, but I am saving it for later...

Spit it out Jul cuz you confussed me I can't make up my mind here

Well it was reviewing the manga closely and I remembered some things I wanted to ask in the forum. They may be related to the great sin of Kaname, maybe not, but should be there for something ... Good start.
1 - What they mean or to serve, the key that Kaname give to Yuki?


2-Aidou-dono (Hanabusa's dad), which was what Kaname said to him, to be resigned to being killed by Kaname?


And the last one ... but not very important ...
3-kaname was speaking seriously when he told Yuki to start over, will be doing all this, for her to face and become stronger?
Well let's think!!

Maria Kuran wrote:Well it was reviewing the manga closely and I remembered some things I wanted to ask in the forum. They may be related to the great sin of Kaname, maybe not, but should be there for something ... Good start.
1 - What they mean or to serve, the key that Kaname give to Yuki?


2-Aidou-dono (Hanabusa's dad), which was what Kaname said to him, to be resigned to being killed by Kaname?


And the last one ... but not very important ...
3-kaname was speaking seriously when he told Yuki to start over, will be doing all this, for her to face and become stronger?
Well let's think!!

Haha, all of these questions are really unsolved here...and only guesses we can take..okay here is mine

1. they key > it is intended to unlock something (for certain this haha) that Yuuki should know or find but when being alone and the importance of the key is for a future use> since Kaname considers that to be important it means that it will definitely play its role there in aiding Yuuki to something > perhaps another truth. My question is why Kaname does not say to her what the key protects...but since he is handing her the key how can he control time and know when she will be using it? it can be after his departure? or whatever?

I think that the answer lays in the place, in order for Yuuki to use the key she has to find herself in the right place and in order to go further she will need the key - so she will think about it...so even though it locks the drawing there ( i think), it can be nothing in there, and this key to have another use as well in another place where Yuuki is supposed to be found.

And now how Kaname knows that she shall be found there?

I think that is because he knows that Sara holds the secrets of his past through Takuma and therefore once she spills her poison to Yuuki - Yuuki shall march out in a request to find the truth or shall be led there by clues about Kaname's past and thus the key shall be handy there...

of course nothing of the above can be truth but i can not think of anything else there to fit but I am always eager for new ideas around here....

2. Aido-dono, I think he faked it...or at least that's why I want to believe, i think that it was not in Kaname's plans to find him there (as we saw he followed Sara's car by an accident- a coincidence) and at the time that Yuuki approaches (if you notice) Kaname says to Aido-dono that they need to talk...so i think that Kaname had intended for Yuuki to stay home - she does not- she approaches with Kaien and in order to stop her there and give an excuse to Kaien to restrict her, he fakes the event...perhaps that also suited him because it created that Bee Queen effect that also stirred the VK society and aided Yuuki later on to earn a better chance in leadership...plus Kain and Ruka were totally insensitive there...haha tell me how can anybody can explain that...or there is a very serious reason there but we do not know...

3. As for "starting over" I think that this phrase had more gravity for Kaname than it had for Yuuki, as he was ready to set his plan in action and he knew that he should reveal to her a more cruel and distant self and he would be risking losing her love - this love for Kaname equals life- therefore that "start over" I think it was far more than honest, for him it was really serious....

juliet wrote:

Maria Kuran wrote:Well it was reviewing the manga closely and I remembered some things I wanted to ask in the forum. They may be related to the great sin of Kaname, maybe not, but should be there for something ... Good start.
1 - What they mean or to serve, the key that Kaname give to Yuki?


2-Aidou-dono (Hanabusa's dad), which was what Kaname said to him, to be resigned to being killed by Kaname?


And the last one ... but not very important ...
3-kaname was speaking seriously when he told Yuki to start over, will be doing all this, for her to face and become stronger?
Well let's think!!

Haha, all of these questions are really unsolved here...and only guesses we can take..okay here is mine

1. they key > it is intended to unlock something (for certain this haha) that Yuuki should know or find but when being alone and the importance of the key is for a future use> since Kaname considers that to be important it means that it will definitely play its role there in aiding Yuuki to something > perhaps another truth. My question is why Kaname does not say to her what the key protects...but since he is handing her the key how can he control time and know when she will be using it? it can be after his departure? or whatever?

I think that the answer lays in the place, in order for Yuuki to use the key she has to find herself in the right place and in order to go further she will need the key - so she will think about it...so even though it locks the drawing there ( i think), it can be nothing in there, and this key to have another use as well in another place where Yuuki is supposed to be found.

And now how Kaname knows that she shall be found there?

I think that is because he knows that Sara holds the secrets of his past through Takuma and therefore once she spills her poison to Yuuki - Yuuki shall march out in a request to find the truth or shall be led there by clues about Kaname's past and thus the key shall be handy there...

of course nothing of the above can be truth but i can not think of anything else there to fit but I am always eager for new ideas around here....

2. Aido-dono, I think he faked it...or at least that's why I want to believe, i think that it was not in Kaname's plans to find him there (as we saw he followed Sara's car by an accident- a coincidence) and at the time that Yuuki approaches (if you notice) Kaname says to Aido-dono that they need to talk...so i think that Kaname had intended for Yuuki to stay home - she does not- she approaches with Kaien and in order to stop her there and give an excuse to Kaien to restrict her, he fakes the event...perhaps that also suited him because it created that Bee Queen effect that also stirred the VK society and aided Yuuki later on to earn a better chance in leadership...plus Kain and Ruka were totally insensitive there...haha tell me how can anybody can explain that...or there is a very serious reason there but we do not know...

3. As for "starting over" I think that this phrase had more gravity for Kaname than it had for Yuuki, as he was ready to set his plan in action and he knew that he should reveal to her a more cruel and distant self and he would be risking losing her love - this love for Kaname equals life- therefore that "start over" I think it was far more than honest, for him it was really serious....

maybe have you considered Yuuki sucking kaname's blood again and going to his past and saying what's gonna happen in the future?and she gave him this key for him to protect in the future?
or maybe it holds his final secret,it opens something that could trully change the future forever?
Kaname certainly told Aidou-dono all the things he's hiding from Yuuki...but now that our hero is back we'll ask some explanations too!
i want to know why he left yuuki?how cruelT.T
And why he's so sad looking at yuuki?

lililovelilica wrote:

juliet wrote:

Maria Kuran wrote:Well it was reviewing the manga closely and I remembered some things I wanted to ask in the forum. They may be related to the great sin of Kaname, maybe not, but should be there for something ... Good start.
1 - What they mean or to serve, the key that Kaname give to Yuki?


2-Aidou-dono (Hanabusa's dad), which was what Kaname said to him, to be resigned to being killed by Kaname?


And the last one ... but not very important ...
3-kaname was speaking seriously when he told Yuki to start over, will be doing all this, for her to face and become stronger?
Well let's think!!

Haha, all of these questions are really unsolved here...and only guesses we can take..okay here is mine

1. they key > it is intended to unlock something (for certain this haha) that Yuuki should know or find but when being alone and the importance of the key is for a future use> since Kaname considers that to be important it means that it will definitely play its role there in aiding Yuuki to something > perhaps another truth. My question is why Kaname does not say to her what the key protects...but since he is handing her the key how can he control time and know when she will be using it? it can be after his departure? or whatever?

I think that the answer lays in the place, in order for Yuuki to use the key she has to find herself in the right place and in order to go further she will need the key - so she will think about it...so even though it locks the drawing there ( i think), it can be nothing in there, and this key to have another use as well in another place where Yuuki is supposed to be found.

And now how Kaname knows that she shall be found there?

I think that is because he knows that Sara holds the secrets of his past through Takuma and therefore once she spills her poison to Yuuki - Yuuki shall march out in a request to find the truth or shall be led there by clues about Kaname's past and thus the key shall be handy there...

of course nothing of the above can be truth but i can not think of anything else there to fit but I am always eager for new ideas around here....

2. Aido-dono, I think he faked it...or at least that's why I want to believe, i think that it was not in Kaname's plans to find him there (as we saw he followed Sara's car by an accident- a coincidence) and at the time that Yuuki approaches (if you notice) Kaname says to Aido-dono that they need to talk...so i think that Kaname had intended for Yuuki to stay home - she does not- she approaches with Kaien and in order to stop her there and give an excuse to Kaien to restrict her, he fakes the event...perhaps that also suited him because it created that Bee Queen effect that also stirred the VK society and aided Yuuki later on to earn a better chance in leadership...plus Kain and Ruka were totally insensitive there...haha tell me how can anybody can explain that...or there is a very serious reason there but we do not know...

3. As for "starting over" I think that this phrase had more gravity for Kaname than it had for Yuuki, as he was ready to set his plan in action and he knew that he should reveal to her a more cruel and distant self and he would be risking losing her love - this love for Kaname equals life- therefore that "start over" I think it was far more than honest, for him it was really serious....

maybe have you considered Yuuki sucking kaname's blood again and going to his past and saying what's gonna happen in the future?and she gave him this key for him to protect in the future?
or maybe it holds his final secret,it opens something that could trully change the future forever?
Kaname certainly told Aidou-dono all the things he's hiding from Yuuki...but now that our hero is back we'll ask some explanations too!
i want to know why he left yuuki?how cruelT.T
And why he's so sad looking at yuuki?

Maybe kaname is not sad, he is sad and engry, for the way that zero is holding yuki!

maybe have you considered Yuuki sucking kaname's blood again and going to his past and saying what's gonna happen in the future?and she gave him this key for him to protect in the future?
or maybe it holds his final secret,it opens something that could trully change the future forever?
Kaname certainly told Aidou-dono all the things he's hiding from Yuuki...but now that our hero is back we'll ask some explanations too!
i want to know why he left yuuki?how cruelT.T
And why he's so sad looking at yuuki?

yes at least a part of his intentions we shall get to see at the next chapter- everything is open with the key - i just assume that what will make it handy shall be the place and not the time- because otherwise how would he know when yuuki would use it and how it could be useful to her?


now about what it uncovers that's too hard to imagine - what I had suspected at the beginning it was that it could be Kaname's plans revealed, so that she would know eventually the truth, if things turned bad for him but its again hard to say...

Yes he is sad - perhaps he had no intention to meet Yuuki but he is forced through conditions, he could have skipped that meeting and go straight for Sara, which he did not, so he wanted to see Yuuki or Zero or both and deal with that issue...even though it seems that all of these are not pleasant for him...

and another question is how did he know? doesn't seem strange that he arrives just in time and place for all the action?