Do you think ZEKI is over?

Bloodredhead wrote:uhm could we get off the topic of rape please it gives me shivers thinking about it and its no the nicest of topics. sorry for bing a prune.

Kara wrote:How do people know this?? I don't remember that in the manga...?

uhm could we get off the topic of rape please it gives me shivers thinking about it and its no the nicest of topics. sorry for bing a prune.

Kara wrote:How do people know this?? I don't remember that in the manga...?

This bite scene between Yuuki and Zero has nothing to do with romance for a reason. Zero has only experienced being bitten previously by Shizuka Hio, and both those instances were essentially rape and murder scenes (Shizuka even showed physical attraction towards Zero the second time around). The fact that Zero was willing to let Yuuki take his blood from his neck IS SIGNIFICANT because he is actually allowing someone to bite him and HE WASN'T TRAUMATIZED afterwards.

No one should have been expecting a romantic development from that scene. I don't imagine rape victims enjoy sex after the fact. This is a step up for Zero because he is showing recovery from those terrible experiences.

caela wrote:

I repeat, ZEKI, is not over. Zero never got rejected by Yuuki. Yuuki never told Zero, "This Zeki thing is not happening." So for the entire thread "Do You Think Zeki Is Over," the simple answer is NO.

I hope to get to Yuuki mind map tomorrow and show you guys the complex answer.

sweetsolace wrote:

Anneliezz wrote:
Honestly, I would be worried if it wasn't awkward. If they, after
what happened, didn't act this way it would either mean 1.
bad/unrealistic character design, or 2. it would mean they had a very
flat relation before. So, i'm relieved their relation is starting to
build up again in a very realistic manner.

Their awkwardness and distance stretched for 20 chapters and more. Its understandable they'd be feeling that way but more than that it seems like that awkwardness becomes their story instead of their supposed"love feelings". The manga emphasized so much on this feeling and on their distance that it is becoming center to their relationship rather than becoming the primary obstacle they have to deal with in order to progress forward. So it makes me question the author's motive here, why drag something as superficial as this trivial feelings IF she was planning to create a love conflict there that would rival Kaname's? Shouldn't she begin making the grounds for that love conflict, instead of this distance? Like she can put up Yuki reassessing her feelings for Zero, blushing when she thinks of him, feeling agitated, anything of that sort that she feels affected by Zero's confession, which might indicate she's feeling something too perhaps, but there was nothing definite to indicate that, if there was it was more like a half assed attempt instead of a real one, such as Yuki remembering Zero biting her and saying he only needs her blood when the thought of level E crosses her mind, which is understandable in another viewpoint since Level E does mean taking blood, and at that time she was worried about his lvl e condition which connected to what Zero said that time. But it is not enough to indicate she loves him in that way because she quickly throws the thought out as if it was a nuisance instead of showing more emotional sign (blushing, distressed etc)
Zero being Kaname's rival in love for Yuki in this case doesn't make much sense to me, as there's few or nothing at all to indicate Yuki feels that way for him (except the awkwardness) and moreover Zero himself doesnt do anything except stare blankly into space and do what he always did in the first arc.
the evidence is weak, it is not concrete enoughto hold water in face with the obstacles it should be dealing with.

Anneliezz wrote:For their pervious conversation
I think they were both lying.

Anneliezz wrote:
With Zero it's most obvious. We've seen him this entire 2nd arcade
acting emotionless and numb. Towards Yuki the same. (I mean he did
confess his feelings, and then she went too be with kaname, it would
want to act as distant as possible) But remember the time when aido made
a comment about yuuki, and if he were hime, he'd go get her and
stuff.... He didn't react immediately, but a couple af chapters later
,he gets back to this, acting more emotional then the entire arcade
(except for the ichiru-scene, but then he was alone)
Furthermore, he continues to help yuuki, admits she hasn't changed (from the old yuuki, the one he loved), and so on..

Anneliezz wrote:What we can see , is that she cares. You can't deny that.

Anneliezz wrote:



hehe^^ to make the mood a little bit lighter. It seems that sagakure thinks zero's a big fat liar too. ^^ She made a fanart about it, lol , it's funny(so credits to her for her always-amazing work)
http://sagakure.livejournal.com/369687.html

wohoyo wrote:I honestly don't think they're over (yet).

Both are just lying to each other when they truly do have some, if not none, feelings for each other. Back to when Yuuki was going home with Kaname for the first time, she admitted that part of her heart was attached to Zero. Obviously, they can't just suddenly disappear.

And Zero, well... He's just plain stubborn to admit it himself.

I think Kaname intends to give her to Zero as he has plans of his own, but I think that if the two don't admit their feelings to each other, their pride will prevent them from getting together in the end.

wohoyo wrote:


I think Kaname intends to give her to Zero as he has plans of his own, but I think that if the two don't admit their feelings to each other, their pride will prevent them from getting together in the end.

Lisi wrote:

wohoyo wrote:


I think Kaname intends to give her to Zero as he has plans of his own, but I think that if the two don't admit their feelings to each other, their pride will prevent them from getting together in the end.

LOL
I don't think Kaname intends to give her to Zero. Yuki isn't a lifeless object.
Kaname want to fulfill his original plan.

IMO he will return to yuki.
and yuki will decide between kaname and zero.

Does it seem optimistic or rather discouraging for you and the Zeki fans? And isn't that another Vampire Knight reality? Zero and Yuuki still in friendship mode after so 14 volumes? trying to reset actually what started as granded?

Chapter 74
Kaien: Yuuki has started to rely on her own will to carry on living.

Kaname: I can no longer chain her to me...


Somewhere the point was made that in chapter 74, Yuuki shows no remorse towards Kaname for drinking Zero's blood. Yuuki promised to never drink that stuff to Kaname. Why didn't she feel guilty for drinking Zero's blood? Because she also sees Yume as broken up. Yuuki and Kaname are back on the market. I hope Ruka doesn't faint.

Spoiler:

Kaien: Yuuki has started to rely on her own will to carry on living.

Kaname: I can no longer chain her to me..

Spoiler:

The common thread is that if only one person of the two likes the other, blood thirst cannot be quenched. Partial love has the same problem as being unquenchable. I wish I had a bite scene from Haruka and Juuri to confirm, but the only quenchable thirst looks to be requited love. Kaname says somewhere that requited love means that your thirst can be quenched (chapter 51). Therefore Yuuki is MOST IN LOVE WITH ZERO.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

caela wrote:I feel that my earlier post can stand alone, so I don't want to add these points to the older box. Also I've been editing the earlier box and deleted a irrelevant point. Anywhoo....

and by the way, if your haven't finished chapter 74: SPOILER ALERT, I don't suggest reading my posts

Juliet, if you want to know my feelings as someone who wants to see a ZEKI ending: hmmm, this is the only spot where my feelings on this might be relevant to the thread. This is more of an emotional argument but ever since Yuuki started a relationship with Kaname, she has smiled alot less. This is partially from her house arrest that Kaname is imposing for her own safety, but I also think that Kaname is a downer when he is with Yuuki. The guy spends his free time in the family vault, which is pretty morbid.

Notably, Yuuki smiles more around Zero, like when she first saw Zero in the graveyard in chapter 60, or when she apologizes to Zero at the end of the same chapter.

In chapter 67, Zero has a moment of crisis when Yori points out to him that Yuuki hasn't changed [from when Yuuki was a human] . His eyes turn red (I think, black and white is not a medium to see the eye color change well), so I think he goes through a bloodlust-for-Yuuki-moment and he visualizes the smiling moments of Yuuki from chapter 60. The relevance of this moment is that I think this is where Zero goes through a breakthrough and gets over the fact that Yuuki is a pureblood, because it is here that Zero does the yuuki personality math and figures out that human Yuuki = vampire Yuuki. (This is a side note and a detour, but it shows that one barrier to Zeki is gone)

In reality, Yuuki has changed, she is a bit depressed and she doesn't have her normal positive personality that she had as a human, which she only has around Zero, (well, Yori too). She can't handle the night class!

The Bite in Chapter 74 (I'm shuddering at the thought of mentioning this again, I am not going to bring up anything not PC here ever again) results in a more relaxed Yuuki and Zero. Yuuki orders Zero around and Zero happily (well, what passes for happy for him) complies. Yuuki never orders people to do anything, so I take this as a sign that their relationship is progressing. As I said earlier, Yuuki is the one who approached the bite with romantic intentions. Insisting on taking blood from Zero's neck and demanding to see his face show her interest. If she were only concerned about Zero's welfare, his feelings for her (well, even if she were platonic towards zero, that would still concern her), his blood thirst and level E status, she could have stuck to the blood from his wrist.

Juliet, I think you mentioned that 14 volumes later, there is still no Zeki canon, which = less chance for Zeki. If we knew that VK would end on volume 15-18ish, I would agree with that statement. I'm not terribly worried about the ticking of the VK doomsday clock because Yuuki, the main character, is very incomplete. She is a pureblood who can wield Artemis. On paper, she should be the ultimate vampire. Right now both her abilites and her personality do not match her potential. Being the main character, unless she starts getting awesome (because frankly she is a dull main character right now) I'm not scared about the series ending anytime soon. It might drag a bit, but that is a separate concern.

OK, down to business about who Yuuki really loves.

Vampire bites to the neck are complex because if it involves a loved one, there are two basic needs being met: food hunger and sexual hunger.

One type of biting that I am going to ignore is family bites. Senri gives blood to his mom upon request. I'm not convinced this is normal for vampires because that woman willingly chose Rido as a mate, which does not scream, here is a well-adjusted person. There is also a hint of child abuse in Senri's past (I remember someone telling child Senri "be a living doll"). Also, there is no other example of family biting in the manga.


Rido has unrequited lust for Yuuki/Juri = wants to drain both the ladies of their blood and would have been never satisfied with a little bit of their blood.

Haruka and Juuri: True love but we never see a bite scene from them
.

Yuuki biting Zero, she didn't drink much but she seems satisfied and relaxed afterwards. Zero loves her and Yuuki is at least partially in love with Zero (according to Kaname and Yuuki chapter 51) and is attracted to Zero. I'm going to list this as the closest living example of requited love. I don't think this is a full reciprocated love because Yuuki's fists are clenched (chapter 74)

Zero biting Yuuki in the first school arc: comes close to draining her dry a few times. He knows his love for her is unrequited.

Kaname biting Yuuki: He never talks about his Yuuki blood thirst but we see him taking blood pills too.

Yuuki says the same thing to Kaname that Rido does, paraphrase: want your blood, a little bit won't do.


The common thread is that if only one person of the two likes the other, blood thirst cannot be quenched. Partial love has the same problem as being unquenchable. I wish I had a bite scene from Haruka and Juuri to confirm, but the only quenchable thirst looks to be requited love. Kaname says somewhere that requited love means that your thirst can be quenched (chapter 51). Therefore Yuuki is MOST IN LOVE WITH ZERO.


I'm guessing that Yuuki's partial love for Kaname is messing with Kaname's satisfaction with Yuuki's blood. That's why he is taking blood tablets. My OPINION is that part of the reason Kaname let Yuuki go is the same reason he let Yuuki alone to say goodbye to Zero in chapter 46: He is hoping that if ZEKI spends time together that Zero's mental hang-ups (which really exist) plus Yuuki's own very real political responsibilities as a Pureblood will make it clear that she should be with Kaname and not Zero. Divine Rose and Lisi and a few others are having a debate about Kaname giving away Yuuki.

I agree that no one can be given away, but Kaname did cut the cord. He had to have known that cutting that cord will lead to more Zeki interaction. He's just hoping that that interaction will be a reality check for Yuuki. As much as I am a ZEKI fangirl, a true Zeki relationship has ALOT of barriers: the hunter association (Zero is supposed to be the future head)and Yuuki's own responsibility as a pureblood. A ZEKI relationship might even be irresponsible and have all the tragic elements of Romeo and Juliet.

Also, Kaname does have a trump card. He has eternal life, Zero does not. Kaname can afford to wait around because in the end, Zero will die first.

Off topic: if you read chapter 51, you can see Aidou's brain working and figuring out that Yuuki likes Zero and that's why she is wandering the castle with blood lust despite drinking Kaname's blood on the regular. Aidou is also willing to leave Yuuki to Zero's care in chapter 74. I wonder where Aidou's true loyalites lie.

note to Krissy: The manga picks up pace in the late 60's and 70's:)

Caela, as long as you care for my well-being, I shall care about yours; that’s what I suspected from you answer. I like your points there, so let’s get down to the subject…

Chapter 74
Kaien: Yuuki has started to rely on her own will to carry on living.

Kaname: I can no longer chain her to me...


Somewhere the point was made that in chapter 74, Yuuki shows no remorse towards Kaname for drinking Zero's blood. Yuuki promised to never drink that stuff to Kaname. Why didn't she feel guilty for drinking Zero's blood? Because she also sees Yume as broken up. Yuuki and Kaname are back on the market. I hope Ruka doesn't faint.



So your point is that since Yume is broken or does not exist (new version), we can have a Zeki or even a Yudo (that sounds weird, anyway..)

You take a scene, you isolate it and you come forward with an argument that actually concerns more Yume than Zeki (like if you say that apples are sour, lemons will get sweeter)…common approach.

But perhaps turning back a few pages Yuuki has already answered your question there as to why she did not feel any guilt taking Zero’s blood.

She needs blood in order to sustain herself and her interest diverts on Zero, as he sees him passing by, reflecting on that…here are her own thoughts (like an introduction that prepare us…)

“What I want I can’t…The only one I can take from isn’t by my side, right now…” “Take only my blood”, “Even if you hadn’t said that, I would have done so Kaname”.

“I have to pull myself together, If I don’t the night class will become meaningless, I also have to chase after Kaname, and I said I’ d keep running away from Zero too…”

So what is the meaning of the above scene for the script?

I think that everyone can notice the contradiction there. The contradiction is that Yuuki reflects the moment that she promised to Kaname but she also reflects the importance of her role and her task; that’s the prelude that comes before the biting.

So, when she is pushed to bite Zero or he would crash her game, she has already concluded/worked in her mind what is important to do right now. Exactly because of that, she throws her inhibitions to the side.

And that brings us to the biting scene, where Yuuki is actually pushed to take Zero’s blood…but even before drinking from him, she makes her intentions clear to him and to us.

Here is what she says; “Not drinking because of your offer Zero…a little is fine, once I am satisfied I will do my job as a Kuran pureblood”.
Zero’s answer; “I no longer feel anything about you neither”…

Spoiler:



“From now on I must respond to Zero’s actions, in accordance with this promise that reminds a deal…”..”Its okay we can start from scratch again”

I think that these lines speak themeselves…because even if kaname has left and Yuuki is rensponsible to apply the co-existence treaty, she has no intention to abandon her targets, which is to go after Kaname, when the time arrives.
I also see that you are using Kaname’s words;

Kaien: Yuuki has started to rely on her own will to carry on living.

Kaname: I can no longer chain her to me..

.

But the first line that you have posted belongs to Kaname;

Spoiler:



and you have also neglected a very strong point in your verdict that Yume exist no more; Kaien’s presence there altogether;
I summon his words;
“I’ve come to tell you that I can no longer return Yuuki to you”…

So since Yume has ended, what is Kaien’s concern there? According to your POV his words are worthless…it is these words that trigger a response from Kaname…(and an unhappy face)
“Yuuki, has already decided to live by her own will, chairman, I am actually grateful that you here to keep Yuuki away from me”…

So what is this line about?
Chairman is keeping Yuuki away from him?
So what has happened to Yume there? It has ended?
Okay if it has, someone should inform Yuuki that wants to go after Kaname, someone should say that to Kaname who is stupid enough to thank Kaiem for keeping yuuki away from him, and also Kaien who must be phasing a delirium syndrome there.

I think we all get the meaning.

So guess if that equals a non-existing Yume, what does the “Zeki” case that has turned into a clear business equal? The ice age long before existence? …could be the ice age (by the way they treat each other, okay little joke there)…

Well in case you have not noticed, Yume right now (at least at the current moment) consumes the potentiality of Zeki that seems to serve as a vehicle in order for Yuuki to complete her final objectives (awful excuse there, I know for Hino to serve fan services) along with solving the Yuuki-Zero relationship problem at least.

But with this excuse, Hino is not rising a Zeki romance that can overshadow Yume with straight lines and open recognition, especially at this critical phase where Kaname is away.
I think if Hino intends to bring Zeki forward, she is taking the wrong path here focusing on re-establishing a relationship on an agreement phase instead of going straight with her character’s feelings because YES I shall repeat it’s 14 volumes.

If in 14 volumes the characters have not established a connection yet, and a mutual recognition of each other’s importance in each other lives, and are still trying to reset their friendly attitude, what are they waiting for?

Suddenly this possible romance seems dragged from the hair, I do not say its impossible but it arrives with impossible ways.

And I think the question is obvious; if there is a Zeki romance there, evident for us to catch between the lines, what’s the use of so many “devices” in the script such as “agreements, extreme hunger?, fading memories, “stand up to roles” and also goals that have to be sustained?

I do not think a romance needs such petty excuse to move forward because love is natural, cannot be hidden and after so many chapters still I see NO recognition of feelings; where is Yuuki admitting how much she loved that biting? Where is Zero’s mind and feelings exploding when she bites him? Where are the two characters feelings? And why the use of so many excuses?

That’s a point that I do not understand, unless Hino is using all of them especially because she wants to diminish the Zeki possibility and sustain the canon Yume.

Anyway, I do not see the point of skipping 14 volumes and catch the script from here like nothing matters. Apparently there is a history and there has to be used somehow.

BITING:

The common thread is that if only one person of the two likes the other, blood thirst cannot be quenched. Partial love has the same problem as being unquenchable. I wish I had a bite scene from Haruka and Juuri to confirm, but the only quenchable thirst looks to be requited love. Kaname says somewhere that requited love means that your thirst can be quenched (chapter 51). Therefore Yuuki is MOST IN LOVE WITH ZERO.


There is also this line here;

Spoiler:


Spoiler:


and may I mention that she had suck Kaname before diving in his memories…

So that adds another spectrum; yes the blood of the loved ones can quench your hunger/thirst but apparently one can not have enough from the person she/he loves; as in love we find ultimate satisfaction at the kisses of the person we like but are they ever enough? No, if that was so then romance would just stop to exist, if a biting was enough, if just a kiss was okay.

So I think that Hino there adds another field in the biting, we understood that a vampire in love would seek the blood of its beloved person, but if even this is enough is another case, as stated by Yuuki.

krissy0324 wrote:I don't think ZEKI is over.

from Juliet: trying to reset actually what started as granded?
Possibly.

I was thinking that the story has different phases:
1 - is when Yuuki tries to remember her past.
Shows how she dealt with her fear of vampires. Ultimately, since her childhood friend (technically, I could consider Zero as her childhood friend), and the senpai/person who saved her from a vampire long time ago, are vampires.


2 - the seal on Yuuki's past was broken and reunites with his brother.
They defeated Rido - who killed their parents, and then left. Yuuki was taught what she needs to know about Purebloods and such.


3 - problem with the Purebloods worsen and projects the characters to a new chapter of their lives.
Is where we currently are, and who knows what will happen next.
I don't know more than you guys do, plus I read VK a long time ago; I stopped reading after chapter 60++, and just started reading again yesterday.


That being said. I think the ZEKI tandem will answer the question we have about the novel's TITLE.


ZEKI IS GOING TO BE A STRONG TAG-TEAM..

I also think that this tag-team will lead to the solution to the problem in the series: the CO-EXISTENCE of HUMANS and VAMPIRES; which I think, in turn, will lead to curing ZERO'S HATRED TOWARDS VAMPIRES.


Think about how the characters are behaving:
Kaname is always in darkness.. giving the plot to the story.
Hino-sensei has introduced us the two characters in huge detail from the start.
They have been the focus of the story - their relationship.

I think, that their relationship will start to change as Yuuki is to takes on the responsibility to take care of the Night class (VAMPIRES) and Zero the Day class (HUMANS). As Yuuki will be drinking Zero's blood from now on, definitely, something will happen there. LAST BUT NOT HE LEAST, Maria who is now interested in Zero. She will be the one to help Yuuki realize her feelings, or something.

caela wrote:
This is partially from her house arrest that Kaname is imposing for her own safety, but I also think that Kaname is a downer when he is with Yuuki. The guy spends his free time in the family vault, which is pretty morbid.

In reality, Yuuki has changed, she is a bit depressed and she doesn't have her normal positive personality that she had as a human, which she only has around Zero, (well, Yori too). She can't handle the night class!

Notably, Yuuki smiles more around Zero, like when she first saw Zero in the graveyard in chapter 60, or when she apologizes to Zero at the end of the same chapter

caela wrote:Vampire bites to the neck are complex because if it involves a loved one, there are two basic needs being met: food hunger and sexual hunger.

caela wrote:Kaname biting Yuuki: He never talks about his Yuuki blood thirst but we see him taking blood pills too.

Yuuki says the same thing to Kaname that Rido does, paraphrase: want your blood, a little bit won't do.

caela wrote:The common thread is that if only one person of the two likes the other, blood thirst cannot be quenched. Partial love has the same problem as being unquenchable. I wish I had a bite scene from Haruka and Juuri to confirm, but the only quenchable thirst looks to be requited love. Kaname says somewhere that requited love means that your thirst can be quenched (chapter 51). Therefore Yuuki is MOST IN LOVE WITH ZERO.

caela wrote:I'm guessing that Yuuki's partial love for Kaname is messing with Kaname's satisfaction with Yuuki's blood. That's why he is taking blood tablets.

Okay, again with feeling. I never claimed that Zero was raped.

Zero has only experienced being bitten previously by Shizuka Hio, and
both those instances were essentially rape and murder scenes (Shizuka
even showed physical attraction towards Zero the second time around).

Zero does not show any sign that he enjoyed being bitten by Yuuki because he has negative associations with being bitten.

In any case, Vampire Knight (VK) canon brings up incest, cannibalism, and murder. I would assume that the future of VK might enter other taboo areas as well.

To reiterate: I never said that ZEKI is currently happening. I am defending the possibility of Zeki.

Also, in the thread it was said that if Yuuki would only accept a
virgin as a boyfriend/spouse, then if Zero was "raped," he no longer
counts as a virgin and would be rejected by Yuuki.

Kaname is an ancestor. He has had offspring, babies, progeny. I
don't think he is still a virgin. In that scenario, Yuuki would also
reject Kaname.

I repeat, ZEKI, is not over. Zero never got rejected by Yuuki. Yuuki never told Zero, "This Zeki thing is not happening."

juliet wrote:
If Hino does not make the move to further develop Zeki romantically
in the nearest future, the potentiallity of the coupling is spent and
consumed in the friendship arena as it does for chapters now.
Does
it seem that Hino wants to promote a canon Zeki or just flirts with the
idea actually diminuishing the chances with extreme delay, when she
could have shown us two aknowledged couplings.
Does it seem
optimistic or rather discouraging for you and the Zeki fans? And isn't
that another Vampire Knight reality? Zero and Yuuki still in friendship
mode after so 14 volumes? trying to reset actually what started as
granded?

[b]anneliez[/b] wrote:
1. There is no such thing as 20 chpaters off awkwardness, since
there is no such a thing as 20 chpaters about zeki. I mean, it's only
now that they start being around each othet again. Before that time,
they've seen each other twice. At the ball from afar and when yuuki
almost bit Zero. And those weren't really the moments to start workin
on their relationship just yet. Hence, the 20-chapters-awkwardness
thing, is kind of a false argument.

2. The distance is a step to growing closer together. That
was the entire point of my post. It is a step that is needed and as I
just said, it's not going on for as long as it seems. And the
awkwardness is starting to fade away now. Yuuki is trying to act all
cheerful around him again.

3. There are much more signs for zeki than just the awkwardness. I just
haven't mentioned them, because that is an entirely other discussion,
that , as i said before, has been going on for a long time, because
some people find it enough proof, some don't. That is just the way it
is.

chapter 74 was no moment to tell the truth there. There taking a
step (blood) for moving forward. On that moment they're already on edge.
There's no point for zero to tell yuuki how he feels. So if she asks
him to think about something else, he'd want to deny she could see
anything that has to do with her. Wich is obviously what he's afraid of,
(remember the 'oi, don't pry into my memories' thing)I agree that lies
have to stop, but now was not the time yet. And caela has already
pointed out the importance of the bite.

His blood did not tell that he doesn't feel for yuuki anymore. It
didn't teel her anything. Zero is good at hiding his feelings,and he
stopped yuuki before she could see more. and yuuki asked him to think
about sth else, even if he denied he could be thining about her, he
still must've tried nt to think about her.

And there's no proof, that she doesn't love him romantically (i'm
not saying it's the other way around either) So that's another reason
why zeki isn't over yet

juliet wrote:
(If Kaname and Yuuki have not been married by then)...but you never know.. okay enough with humour check the goodies.

krissy wrote:
I think, that their relationship will start to change as Yuuki is to
takes on the responsibility to take care of the Night class (VAMPIRES)
and Zero the Day class (HUMANS). As Yuuki will be drinking Zero's blood
from now on, definitely, something will happen there. LAST BUT NOT HE
LEAST, Maria who is now interested in Zero. She will be the one to help
Yuuki realize her feelings, or something.

sweetsolace wrote:@caela

Okay, again with feeling. I never claimed that Zero was raped.

you just implied you did here:

Zero has only experienced being bitten previously by Shizuka Hio, and
both those instances were essentially rape and murder scenes (Shizuka
even showed physical attraction towards Zero the second time around).

key word was physical attraction and you said its essentially rape. if it was only intended for non literal use, no need for that attraction

can you imagine Shizuka having physical attraction towards Zero? that can technically lead to rape .

Zero does not show any sign that he enjoyed being bitten by Yuuki because he has negative associations with being bitten.

its questionable.
in this first place this is a complete assumption, Zero never ONCE said he "doesn't like being bitten". It was implied in his actions (such as Zero clawing his neck in the earlier chapters) but not proven. It is however proven that he hates vampires; everyone knows that.
There is no other proof why Zero would consider being bitten a trauma, as there were no other instances other than Shizuka and Yuki's. if there was a previous incident then it could serve as proof.
Zero even let Yuki touch his tattooed neck in chapter 72. As well as get a tattoo made there in the first place. if he was traumatized he would never let it be touched, not even get something done there in the first place.

In any case, Vampire Knight (VK) canon brings up incest, cannibalism, and murder. I would assume that the future of VK might enter other taboo areas as well.

you are correct. Kaname was even accused of adultery and majority of the zeki fans have many negative reactions towards his kills.

To reiterate: I never said that ZEKI is currently happening. I am defending the possibility of Zeki.

exactly. you are defending it, not canonizing a fact that zeki exists. the point of the thread is to argue if zeki still exists at present.
the possibility of a future romance is always present in ZEKI like juliet said, but the question is if ZEKI over at present?

Also, in the thread it was said that if Yuuki would only accept a
virgin as a boyfriend/spouse, then if Zero was "raped," he no longer
counts as a virgin and would be rejected by Yuuki.

Kaname is an ancestor. He has had offspring, babies, progeny. I
don't think he is still a virgin. In that scenario, Yuuki would also
reject Kaname.

if broken "virginity" is the basis for everything then Kain should dump Ruka for being bitten by Kaname.

I repeat, ZEKI, is not over. Zero never got rejected by Yuuki. Yuuki never told Zero, "This Zeki thing is not happening."

rejection doesn't need to have a word of confirmation IMO. rejection happened when yuki chose kaname over zero. that's it. Yuki showing no romantic interest towards Zero for the remainder of 20 chapters or more after that is also an indication she has no plans returning his feelings because it doesnt exist for her in the first place IMO.

Yuki admitting what she truly wanted and Zero revealing the contents of his minds about yuki in chapter 74 shows they have long moved on from each other and that for me is enough proof that there was nothing going on between them other than conflict between friends.

juliet wrote:
If Hino does not make the move to further develop Zeki romantically
in the nearest future, the potentiallity of the coupling is spent and
consumed in the friendship arena as it does for chapters now.
Does
it seem that Hino wants to promote a canon Zeki or just flirts with the
idea actually diminuishing the chances with extreme delay, when she
could have shown us two aknowledged couplings.
Does it seem
optimistic or rather discouraging for you and the Zeki fans? And isn't
that another Vampire Knight reality? Zero and Yuuki still in friendship
mode after so 14 volumes? trying to reset actually what started as
granded?

my thoughts exactly juliet. Im also looking forward to the resolution to Yuki's "divided" heart, but she had implied nothing romantic towards zero for the last few chapters and now that she did she says she wanted a RESTART FROM THE BEGINNING. From the beginning I imagine she was talking about their friendship as it was always what they had from the start, and not romance.

[b]anneliez[/b] wrote:
1. There is no such thing as 20 chpaters off awkwardness, since
there is no such a thing as 20 chpaters about zeki. I mean, it's only
now that they start being around each othet again. Before that time,
they've seen each other twice. At the ball from afar and when yuuki
almost bit Zero. And those weren't really the moments to start workin
on their relationship just yet. Hence, the 20-chapters-awkwardness
thing, is kind of a false argument.

there's no need for 20 chapters of zeki to show a hint of Yuki's "romantic feelings" for him, they were given enough screen time and they spent it showing awkwardness and ambiguity.
she can give a hint she still feels something for him, and a solid one. she did not, and now she's saying she wants a restart that features being friends with him again. that idea doesn't make sense if she planned to love Zero romantically in the first place.
Like I previously said, the attempts to show she loves him are half-ass instead of a real indication, it always has another meaning that meant friendship rather than love among other things. what they had in those 20 chapters is awkwardness rather than a development that geared toward love , for example in chapter 60 as you said Yuki nearly bit zero but it was also because she considers his blood scent as nostalgic and it could mean she misses him, but not enough to solidify the idea that it was a romantic action. its also not a development in terms of romance since she ran away from that feeling as if she was scared of it. and she showed no signs of regretting running away from that feeling either.

2. The distance is a step to growing closer together. That
was the entire point of my post. It is a step that is needed and as I
just said, it's not going on for as long as it seems. And the
awkwardness is starting to fade away now. Yuuki is trying to act all
cheerful around him again.

thats why I answered that their awkwardness becomes their story instead of their romance. 20 chapters and it was the ONLY thing they did. now you say those 20 chapters were just the beginning? so 20 more for their startover, 20 more for their romance? Yuki has to keep patting Zero for 20 more chapters to heal him since he cant do it himself, and when its vk ending only then Yuki will begin her romance, and that is left open since there's no more space for their "romance", which in essence does not make sense at all logically since for zeki to happen yuki also has to resolve her feelings for kaname.
in the 1st arc the manga spent 35 chapters on zeki showing nothing but friendship. now there's still no hard indication of romance between them other than what was implied. how is this convincing? it does not even compare to YUME at all, even Zero makes a nonexistent rival to Kaname presently.

3. There are much more signs for zeki than just the awkwardness. I just
haven't mentioned them, because that is an entirely other discussion,
that , as i said before, has been going on for a long time, because
some people find it enough proof, some don't. That is just the way it
is.

if you have proof then show it, after all this thread is to prove whether zeki is over or not.

chapter 74 was no moment to tell the truth there. There taking a
step (blood) for moving forward. On that moment they're already on edge.
There's no point for zero to tell yuuki how he feels. So if she asks
him to think about something else, he'd want to deny she could see
anything that has to do with her. Wich is obviously what he's afraid of,
(remember the 'oi, don't pry into my memories' thing)I agree that lies
have to stop, but now was not the time yet. And caela has already
pointed out the importance of the bite.

this doesnt indicate anything romantic. presently I disagree that its a development for either of them since the bite simply resolved the awkwardness they've spent 20 chapters showing , now that is resolved they can start having more "eased" interactions as yuki thinks it will but thats it, the fact yuki wants to be together as friends seems pretty clear to me that is what she wanted all along, and zero also revealing he had moved on from her technically because of what he said was also pretty clear.
The funny thing is zekifans seems to keep ignoring the meaning of yuki and zero's thoughts, or what it means in chapter 74. their blood and their thoughts have spoken for what they were "hiding" all along and it was "that".

His blood did not tell that he doesn't feel for yuuki anymore. It
didn't teel her anything. Zero is good at hiding his feelings,and he
stopped yuuki before she could see more. and yuuki asked him to think
about sth else, even if he denied he could be thining about her, he
still must've tried nt to think about her.

his blood told that he does not feel strongly for yuki as much as he did before. he also said he hardly thinks about her anymore. for me that tells a lot what he's been doing for the last few chapters. the others are assumptions not supported

And there's no proof, that she doesn't love him romantically (i'm
not saying it's the other way around either) So that's another reason
why zeki isn't over yet

the point of the thread is not to canonize a fact that zeki is over, but to prove it is over. Likewise theres no proof that she loves him as a lover.

juliet wrote:
(If Kaname and Yuuki have not been married by then)...but you never know.. okay enough with humour check the goodies.

by the time zeki started that "courting/ dating" phase, yume already have twins.

krissy wrote:
I think, that their relationship will start to change as Yuuki is to
takes on the responsibility to take care of the Night class (VAMPIRES)
and Zero the Day class (HUMANS). As Yuuki will be drinking Zero's blood
from now on, definitely, something will happen there. LAST BUT NOT HE
LEAST, Maria who is now interested in Zero. She will be the one to help
Yuuki realize her feelings, or something.

how convenient.
a first arc REPEAT of the prefects just to make ZEKI happen, otherwise its not going anywhere with so many blockages on their way...
-zero's immortal hatred, which for some reason, will be eliminated in the end. yuki just have to keep caressing him to decrease it and keep drinking his blood--it will lead to something. And when its gone back to point zero just when he was a kid (lets forget that another zeki here said its trauma, lol), somehow he'll just manage save everyone with his unstable powers, unstable emotions and his unstable level d-e condition, vanquishing everyone even a pureblood.

zero the emotionally unstable vampire level d-e vampire hunter who lies as a hobby and who hated vampires since he was small and it was considered a trauma for him, saves the world, along with the pureblood he had promised to kill out of his hatred not too long ago. one just has to imagine hard. you can tell this right now, just when yuki starts babysitting him into being his friend again.

@caela


Okay, again with feeling. I never claimed that Zero was raped.

you just implied you did here:

Zero has only experienced being bitten previously by Shizuka Hio, and
both those instances were essentially rape and murder scenes (Shizuka
even showed physical attraction towards Zero the second time around).


key word was physical attraction and you said its essentially rape. if it was only intended for non literal use, no need for that attraction

can you imagine Shizuka having physical attraction towards Zero? that can technically lead to rape .

Zero does not show any sign that he enjoyed being bitten by Yuuki because he has negative associations with being bitten.

Code:

its questionable.
in this first place this is a complete assumption, Zero never ONCE said he "doesn't like being bitten". It was implied in his actions (such as Zero clawing his neck in the earlier chapters) but not proven. It is however proven that he hates vampires; everyone knows that.
There is no other proof why Zero would consider being bitten a trauma, as there were no other instances other than Shizuka and Yuki's. if there was a previous incident then it could serve as proof.

Zero even let Yuki touch his tattooed neck in chapter 72. As well as get a tattoo made there in the first place. if he was traumatized he would never let it be touched, not even get something done there in the first place.

Spoiler:

Zero even let Yuki touch his tattooed neck in chapter 72. As well as get a tattoo made there in the first place. if he was traumatized he would never let it be touched, not even get something done there in the first place.

The "rape" is not canon. It's a theory of mine to explain the chapter 74 bite scene.

caela wrote:

RAPE IS NOT FUNNY! RAPE IS AN EVIL CRIME!!!!!
People in this thread have made jokes about this sensitive topic and I have tried to explain my idea (about being forcibly bitten, and watching your family be killed) and my points in a way that was not salacious and as only a "to-the-fact" sort of style.

I did not make this clear earlier (like I should have) and I was reminded of it by a recent post, which does not do those things, but I will be addressing said post now before I go back to the studying I should be doing.

@caela


Okay, again with feeling. I never claimed that Zero was raped.

you just implied you did here:

Zero has only experienced being bitten previously by Shizuka Hio, and
both those instances were essentially rape and murder scenes (Shizuka
even showed physical attraction towards Zero the second time around).


key word was physical attraction and you said its essentially rape. if it was only intended for non literal use, no need for that attraction

can you imagine Shizuka having physical attraction towards Zero? that can technically lead to rape .

Zero does not show any sign that he enjoyed being bitten by Yuuki because he has negative associations with being bitten.

Code:

its questionable.
in this first place this is a complete assumption, Zero never ONCE said he "doesn't like being bitten". It was implied in his actions (such as Zero clawing his neck in the earlier chapters) but not proven. It is however proven that he hates vampires; everyone knows that.
There is no other proof why Zero would consider being bitten a trauma, as there were no other instances other than Shizuka and Yuki's. if there was a previous incident then it could serve as proof.

Zero even let Yuki touch his tattooed neck in chapter 72. As well as get a tattoo made there in the first place. if he was traumatized he would never let it be touched, not even get something done there in the first place.

I'm leaving with this because this could be solved with a dictionary, therefore making it a fast argument to deal with.

This is the definition of the word "essential". (I hope you don't need me to pull the Oxford English dictionary out for the word "rape." Really, I'm seeing red right now because of the number of times i've seen that word this week. That's partially my fault. Hopefully your post is the last one that brings this up because otherwise I'm going to need my grandpa's heart meds. I will not be treating this post gently because of the above reasoning, its not personal; I just really don't want to see that word again. ) Oxford English is the gold standard for your word look-up needs according to my professor.

essential /ɪˈsɛnʃ(ə)l/
adjective

1 absolutely necessary; extremely important.

2 central to the nature of something; fundamental: the essential weakness of the plaintiff's case.

3 (of an amino acid or fatty acid) required for normal growth but not synthesized in the body and therefore necessary in the diet.

4 Medicine (of a disease) with no known external stimulus or cause; idiopathic.

Also, being touched on the the neck versus being bitten: I know
which one I would rather endure. If you think both are the same, I
know a place with lots of mosquitoes that you'll enjoy the company of.

....After a traumatic experience, a person may re-experience the trauma mentally and physically, hence avoiding trauma reminders, also called triggers, as this can be uncomfortable and even painful.

You can say that you don't agree with it, but don't pretend I didn't write any evidence. I suggest you edit your post.

I know what you really meant but don't try to deny that you weren't responsible for their "misinterpretations ". Moreover telling people to grab a dictionary for something you failed to do in the first place when you used the word RAPE is just passing the blame.

Moreover, I just said that I got the impression you implied it was RAPE what Shizuka did to Zero because of the words "essentially" and "physical attraction", the latter one being your invention since there was nothing like that with Shizuka (otherwise she'd be a pedo now ), YOU'RE THE ONE who put this words, not me. I know what I should take literally and what I shouldn't, one of that is your post.

you should get a psychology book instead of a dictionary to see what TRAUMA is. Trauma victims reaction to having someone else touch the affected part is important.
They have timid or guarding symptoms associated to whatever causes the trigger to that trauma.

from wikipedia

....After a traumatic experience, a person may re-experience the trauma mentally and physically, hence avoiding trauma reminders, also called triggers, as this can be uncomfortable and even painful.


trauma victims AVOID anything that REMIND them of the traumatic incident. In this case the incident is the bite, anything associated to the bite like touching his neck is INCLUDED.

You can say that you don't agree with it, but don't pretend I didn't write any evidence. I suggest you edit your post.

And here's a better proof for all this baseless belief. Shizuka herself gives Zero another taste of his life-changing "trauma" (deleted link)
and yet instead of making him more depressed as he had to relive that again, he's actually more empowered, see how he managed to break out of Shizuka's hold and shoot himself.

Saying I shouldn't compare being touched and being bitten because they're not the same and then supporting that by saying you'll take me to a place with mosquitoes to get bitten is not only a laughable and childish challenge, but proves nothing except your inability to provide solid proofs from the manga which is where we derive all this.