What happened with Touma?

First topic message reminder :

Touma: Say... how about giving me one last blow? OR In a way, it’s like giving me one final blow.
(Hard to decide what he was saying. One way of interpreting it is he wants Kaien to finish him off. But it can also be interpreted as a reference back to Chapter 61, when Kaname said “I won’t do more to you than this one last hit” as in this was Kaname’s final hit to him as punishment for what he did to Yuuki. Maybe the Japanese translation will be a lot more clearer than this.)
Kaname is serious about deciding to exterminate all the purebloods.

I found the incident with Touma very strange;

-Kaname uses Kaien in order to give to Touma the last blow; Why? (he obviously could have done it himself)

-Touma is hurt but on top of that he actually asks to be given the last blow (why? doesnt he want to survive?)

-Isaya is watching from above (honesty that's creepy), can the murder of Touma infront of his eyes from kaien (who just stated that he does not want to kill all purebloods) be targeted to him?

What do you think about it> any ideas or theories?

I am proposing that perhaps kaname wants to persuade and to convince kaien that he is acting in order to kill all purebloods and in order to provoke him more.

*Kaname in this chapter, I consider that he does extreme work to promote his worst persona and his most evil side deliberately so that Kaien is totally convinced about his intentions*...

The incident with Touma is indeed weird and creates lots of questions lol.

Is Touma dead? And if yes then how and where are his crystals haha.

Well we didn’t see Touma scattering into crystals yet … so maybe we’ll see it in the next chapter. After all the scene was cut in there …

Now if Touma is dead how this happened since as we know thus far in order to kill a PB is needed at least one blow with an anti-vampire weapon to take its ability to regenerate and then take the heart or chop its head off (the reverse process has the same results as well).

We only saw Kaien giving one blow to Touma and not on his heart so logically Touma shouldn’t die. But Touma was already injured by Kaname back on chapter 61>>
http://www.mangareader.net/104-52342-2/vampire-knight/chapter-61.html

>> and has a wound and blood on his chest on the heart’s side >>

http://www.mangareader.net/104-52342-3/vampire-knight/chapter-61.html

So is it possible that Kaname took his heart there? If so then one blow from Kaien’s sword would be the final one. Also Kaien’s words back on chapter 65 >>
“Yesterday the HEAD of the Touma family got punished SEVERELY. Thanks to that we couldn’t meet him.”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-57815-15/vampire-knight/chapter-65.html

Ergo Kaien confirms that Kaname’s hit wasn’t so simple after all and the fact that he couldn’t meet him is fishy… But again even if Kaname took his heart, Touma should be in position to regenerate and heal himself even slowly hence Kaien’s blow wouldn’t be the final. The time in between the two incidents I think is enough to do so.

But what if Kaname “possessed” Touma the whole time since then? As we saw he used Touma’s bats to create a “hologram” of himself in order to trick Kaien. Also when Kaname had visit Touma to punish him for his attack to Yuuki he was there using his bats again.
Additionally … he touches Kaien’s sword and his hand seems to “evaporating” >>
http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/75/9

So I’ve been thinking what if Kaname was also using the same trick (Touma’s bats) when he killed Hanadagi and Aido-dono thus his hand was pitch black at the end?
Well is just a possibility haha … But if so … where is the real Kaname??? (drinking his tea with Isaya inside the house )

And something lastly … I saw some comments about the poor Touma who was only a child and brutally murdered haha

Touma isn’t a child!! >>>

1. “How dare this girl (Yuuki) claim that my bats have any similarity with those of A MERE KID LIKE HIM (means Kaname)? What an insulting girl really…”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-49597-23/vampire-knight/chapter-59.html

2. “YOUNG MISTER “leader” of our people”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-52342-3/vampire-knight/chapter-61.html
Touma thought that he is very older than Kaname no? Probably he doesn’t know that Kaname is an ancestor.

3. Kaien: “Yesterday the HEAD of the Touma family got punished SEVERELY. Thanks to that we couldn’t meet him.”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-57815-15/vampire-knight/chapter-65.html

So apparently Touma despite his appearance probably is an old PB … how old we don’t know yet but certainly isn’t an innocent child and he is also the head of his clan!

nina wrote:The incident with Touma is indeed weird and creates lots of questions lol.

Is Touma dead? And if yes then how and where are his crystals haha.

Well we didn’t see Touma scattering into crystals yet … so maybe we’ll see it in the next chapter. After all the scene was cut in there …

Now if Touma is dead how this happened since as we know thus far in order to kill a PB is needed at least one blow with an anti-vampire weapon to take its ability to regenerate and then take the heart or chop its head off (the reverse process has the same results as well).

We only saw Kaien giving one blow to Touma and not on his heart so logically Touma shouldn’t die. But Touma was already injured by Kaname back on chapter 61>>
http://www.mangareader.net/104-52342-2/vampire-knight/chapter-61.html

>> and has a wound and blood on his chest on the heart’s side >>

http://www.mangareader.net/104-52342-3/vampire-knight/chapter-61.html

So is it possible that Kaname took his heart there? If so then one blow from Kaien’s sword would be the final one. Also Kaien’s words back on chapter 65 >>
“Yesterday the HEAD of the Touma family got punished SEVERELY. Thanks to that we couldn’t meet him.”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-57815-15/vampire-knight/chapter-65.html

Ergo Kaien confirms that Kaname’s hit wasn’t so simple after all and the fact that he couldn’t meet him is fishy… But again even if Kaname took his heart, Touma should be in position to regenerate and heal himself even slowly hence Kaien’s blow wouldn’t be the final. The time in between the two incidents I think is enough to do so.

But what if Kaname “possessed” Touma the whole time since then? As we saw he used Touma’s bats to create a “hologram” of himself in order to trick Kaien. Also when Kaname had visit Touma to punish him for his attack to Yuuki he was there using his bats again.
Additionally … he touches Kaien’s sword and his hand seems to “evaporating” >>
http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/75/9

So I’ve been thinking what if Kaname was also using the same trick (Touma’s bats) when he killed Hanadagi and Aido-dono thus his hand was pitch black at the end?
Well is just a possibility haha … But if so … where is the real Kaname??? (drinking his tea with Isaya inside the house )

haha I would love to have happened, more than this it gives answers to why Kaname's hand was so affected... where we know that he had not the similar problem by holding that sword in his fight with Rido or http://www.mangareader.net/104-57201-24/vampire-knight/chapter-64.html

plus if he used Touma in Hanadagi, Touma's regenerating ability would also have been affected by again the use of that sword. Therefore its highly possible...

what about Hio? the attack there remains a mystery..

@nina

Now if Touma is dead how this happened since as we know thus far in
order to kill a PB is needed at least one blow with an anti-vampire
weapon to take its ability to regenerate and then take the heart or chop
its head off (the reverse process has the same results as well).

We
only saw Kaien giving one blow to Touma and not on his heart so
logically Touma shouldn’t die. But Touma was already injured by Kaname
back on chapter 61>>
http://www.mangareader.net/104-52342-2/vampire-knight/chapter-61.html

>> and has a wound and blood on his chest on the heart’s side >>

http://www.mangareader.net/104-52342-3/vampire-knight/chapter-61.html

So
is it possible that Kaname took his heart there? If so then one blow
from Kaien’s sword would be the final one. Also Kaien’s words back on
chapter 65 >>
“Yesterday the HEAD of the Touma family got punished SEVERELY. Thanks to that we couldn’t meet him.”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-57815-15/vampire-knight/chapter-65.html

Ergo
Kaien confirms that Kaname’s hit wasn’t so simple after all and the
fact that he couldn’t meet him is fishy… But again even if Kaname took
his heart, Touma should be in position to regenerate and heal himself
even slowly hence Kaien’s blow wouldn’t be the final. The time in
between the two incidents I think is enough to do so.

But what if
Kaname “possessed” Touma the whole time since then? As we saw he used
Touma’s bats to create a “hologram” of himself in order to trick Kaien.
Also when Kaname had visit Touma to punish him for his attack to Yuuki
he was there using his bats again.

nice observations there, I think Touma was indeed wounded... I think that odd blood puddle there before him is his heart.
http://www.mangareader.net/104-52342-2/vampire-knight/chapter-61.html
...
ok but it looks small. stringy..
anyway I dont know where else Kaname couldve taken the heart maybe he ate it

It would make sense if his heart was already ripped. I think when that happens the pureblood is only in "low power" mode as Hanadagi mentioned after his heart was ripped off. I think Kaname also gave him one last hit, maybe that was to maim him enough to stop his healing powers, so he lasted around 10 chapters before being killed must be tiring.
The same injury was also inflicted with Hio I think in chapter 71 but we didnt see him killed, just a chest injury it looks. maybe kaname will also use him later on like how he did with touma

Additionally … he touches Kaien’s sword and his hand seems to “evaporating” >>
http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/75/9

So I’ve been thinking what if Kaname was also using the same trick
(Touma’s bats) when he killed Hanadagi and Aido-dono thus his hand was
pitch black at the end?

The difference between Kaname and Touma's height should be apparent, and if it was Touma's hand used to touch the sword it doesnt seem possible to reach that height of Kaien's sword (unless he used a ladder lol), so i think if that was the case it was Kaname's bats who created the illusion that is actually tangible enough to be able to attack Kaien. I think his hand appears to be evaporating because it wasnt taking effect (?) in him, as would be if it is an illusion.

Touma isn’t a child!! >>>

1. “How dare this girl (Yuuki) claim that my bats have any similarity with those of A MERE KID LIKE HIM (means Kaname)? What an insulting girl really…”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-49597-23/vampire-knight/chapter-59.html

2. “YOUNG MISTER “leader” of our people”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-52342-3/vampire-knight/chapter-61.html
Touma thought that he is very older than Kaname no? Probably he doesn’t know that Kaname is an ancestor.

3. Kaien: “Yesterday the HEAD of the Touma family got punished SEVERELY. Thanks to that we couldn’t meet him.”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-57815-15/vampire-knight/chapter-65.html

So
apparently Touma despite his appearance probably is an old PB … how old
we don’t know yet but certainly isn’t an innocent child and he is also
the head of his clan!

that's what I was saying. they're a family of midgets, it seems.

juliet wrote: haha I would love to have happened, more than this it gives answers to why Kaname's hand was so affected... where we know that he had not the similar problem by holding that sword in his fight with Rido or http://www.mangareader.net/104-57201-24/vampire-knight/chapter-64.html

plus if he used Touma in Hanadagi, Touma's regenerating ability would also have been affected by again the use of that sword. Therefore its highly possible...

Yup it gives an answer why Kaname’s hand was so damaged after Hana' death while Kaname had no such problem in the past.
Here other scenes where not only is holding Artemis and the Bloody Rose into full form but he also putting the BR on his forehead with none side-effect >>

http://www.mangareader.net/104-57201-22/vampire-knight/chapter-64.html http://www.mangareader.net/104-57201-23/vampire-knight/chapter-64.html http://www.mangareader.net/104-57201-24/vampire-knight/chapter-64.html

Also note what he says to one of his comrades “A girl who put a name on MY weapon” meaning artemis. http://www.mangareader.net/104-57201-25/vampire-knight/chapter-64.html
So as it seems Kaname wielded both of these weapons (artemis & BR) in the past wars.

sweetsolace wrote: The difference between Kaname and Touma's height should be apparent, and if it was Touma's hand used to touch the sword it doesnt seem possible to reach that height of Kaien's sword (unless he used a ladder lol)

Haha a ladder ROFL. No … I meant IF Kaname used Touma’s bats to create his hologram … so no need for a ladder to touch Kaien’s sword since as we saw even IF Kaname’s body wasn’t actually there this alter-ego was exactly like him … same form, same height lol.

Well I don’t know how he did it haha but IF Kaname had possessed/captured Touma all this time somehow (from the first attack till now) it would be logical for another reason as well >> to prevent him for attacking back.

Touma says to Kaname: “An actual direct attack to our castle is the same as a DECLARATION of WAR. Or don’t tell me you didn’t know such an important thing? Young mister leader of our people?”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-52342-3/vampire-knight/chapter-61.html

And apparently his tone is derisive >> “young leader of our people”

So I wonder how Kaname could ensure that a PB like Touma who attacked Yuuki for none obvious reason >> http://www.mangareader.net/104-49597-26/vampire-knight/chapter-59.html
>>and moreover after he intruded his castle and punished him, wouldn’t launch out a second bigger blow?

so i think if that was the case it was Kaname's bats who created the illusion that is actually tangible enough to be able to attack Kaien. I think his hand appears to be evaporating because it wasnt taking effect (?) in him, as would be if it is an illusion.

You could be right. However if Kaname used his bats and not Touma’s how appeared Touma’s injured body after Kaien’s hit? And I think when a PB is into its alter form (wolf, bats, spiders) can also be harmed. Indications >>

1. Zero threatened Touma’s alter-version >> http://www.mangareader.net/104-51058-13/vampire-knight/chapter-60.html

2. Yuuki says to Kaname’s wolf that she’s glad he is okay despite the attack>> http://www.mangareader.net/104-51058-29/vampire-knight/chapter-60.html