What happened with Touma?

Touma: Say... how about giving me one last blow? OR In a way, it’s like giving me one final blow.
(Hard to decide what he was saying. One way of interpreting it is he wants Kaien to finish him off. But it can also be interpreted as a reference back to Chapter 61, when Kaname said “I won’t do more to you than this one last hit” as in this was Kaname’s final hit to him as punishment for what he did to Yuuki. Maybe the Japanese translation will be a lot more clearer than this.)
Kaname is serious about deciding to exterminate all the purebloods.

I found the incident with Touma very strange;

-Kaname uses Kaien in order to give to Touma the last blow; Why? (he obviously could have done it himself)

-Touma is hurt but on top of that he actually asks to be given the last blow (why? doesnt he want to survive?)

-Isaya is watching from above (honesty that's creepy), can the murder of Touma infront of his eyes from kaien (who just stated that he does not want to kill all purebloods) be targeted to him?

What do you think about it> any ideas or theories?

I am proposing that perhaps kaname wants to persuade and to convince kaien that he is acting in order to kill all purebloods and in order to provoke him more.

*Kaname in this chapter, I consider that he does extreme work to promote his worst persona and his most evil side deliberately so that Kaien is totally convinced about his intentions*...

juliet wrote:
-Kaname uses Kaien in order to give to Touma the last blow; Why? (he obviously could have done it himself)

My theory is that he couldn't kill Touma. He killed Hio a couple of days earlier, with the av sword. Its been months since he killed Hanadagi and Nagamichi. I think he had to wait that time because he needed time for his hand to heal after wielding the av weapon, and now after killing Hio, his hand will be injured again. So he used Kaien to do it.

-Touma is hurt but on top of that he actually asks to be given the last blow (why? doesnt he want to survive?)

I think we need translation confirmation of that, but its been stated that Touma said that was the last blow i.e. kaname did that to finish him.

-Isaya is watching from above (honesty that's creepy), can the murder of Touma infront of his eyes from kaien (who just stated that he does not want to kill all purebloods) be targeted to him?

maybe, I suspect isaya was just bait to bring Kaien and that isaya was not kaname's primary target, Touma/Kaien was. Kaien obviously figured out how to find Kaname, because Kaname led him there.

I am proposing that perhaps kaname wants to persuade and to convince kaien that he is acting in order to kill all purebloods and in order to provoke him more.

Well, he's certainly convincing Kaien. Telling him he wants to exterminate them all and showing that kaien can't stop him. I don't get why Kaname thinks Kaien shouldn't have a problem with it, is he trying to bring out the old bloodthirsty killer in Kaien? He at least was passing on a message to kaien and through him to Yuuki and make her lose her faith in him.

Knightmare wrote:
Well, he's certainly convincing Kaien. Telling him he wants to exterminate them all and showing that kaien can't stop him. I don't get why Kaname thinks Kaien shouldn't have a problem with it, is he trying to bring out the old bloodthirsty killer in Kaien? He at least was passing on a message to kaien and through him to Yuuki and make her lose her faith in him.

Perhaps that's a line in order to see how Kaname originally thinks about the hunters and what he has taken into consideration prior acting as he acts;

https://vampireknight.all-up.com/t429p50-kaname-s-kuran-plan-of-action-is-heading-where#17088

maybe, I suspect isaya was just bait to bring Kaien and that isaya was not kaname's primary target, Touma/Kaien was. Kaien obviously figured out how to find Kaname, because Kaname led him there.

That's a possible scenario but then it changes the course of things; if Isaya had not been the target then a part of Kaname's plan is to lead others or all or perhaps the hunters specifically in believing that he intends to kill them all.
(apparently as his did that trick to Kaien to also make him a believer of that theory and perhaps to get rid of Touma, two tartgets in one).

But is Touma really killed here? This point also is unclear..

Αnother concern; Why is the chapter named after the Touma incident;

Is it important? and why?

How did Touma ended up there? Is it connected to Yuuki's incident? He says that he was used.. But from whom? Kaname? Or the scene is deliberately deceiving and Touma had been used by someone else in the past?

Juliet wrote: -Touma is hurt but on top of that he actually asks to be given the last blow (why? doesnt he want to survive?)

According to another source is Kaien who says that Touma has been used as a puppet >>>

Kaien: "You were used as puppet!! If there's a chance, you plan to make me deliver a final blow to him?"

So basically says that Kaname has used Touma as a puppet and that he planned the scene so Kaien to deliver the final blow to Touma. Therefore Touma is dead.

knightmare wrote:

Juliet wrote: -Kaname uses Kaien in order to give to Touma the last blow; Why? (he obviously could have done it himself)

My theory is that he couldn't kill Touma. He killed Hio a couple of days earlier, with the av sword. Its been months since he killed Hanadagi and Nagamichi. I think he had to wait that time because he needed time for his hand to heal after wielding the av weapon, and now after killing Hio, his hand will be injured again. So he used Kaien to do it.

I beg to differ … actually I think is the opposite. Touma’s death indicates that Kaname is very powerful … he managed to use another PB as his puppet in order to make Kaien kill him.

My interpretation is that Kaname did that cuz he wanted to drive Kaien on the edge … to provoke and convince him >>>
1. To deliver his message to Yuuki i.e. makes her lose her faith/trust in him.
2. To provoke him in order to slash him viz kill Touma >>> Kaname says “I killed Ouri and next will be Sara …” so he lies to Kaien that he indeed killed Ouri something we know that is a lie lol … what for; maybe cuz he was trying to anger Kaien cuz after Kaname’s wording Kaien hit Kaname but in reality he killed Touma!
3. To convince him that his plan is indeed to kill all the PBs. Look what Kaien is thinking after Kaname’s plan >>> “Kaname is serious about deciding to exterminate all the purebloods.” Viz now Kaien is convinced whereas before he was still questioning Kaname’s intentions >> “After having changed your mind, is this really the path you’re going to choose? Yuuki, somewhere deep inside, still believes in you”

So for now I’m also leaning towards >>>

knightmare wrote:

juliet wrote: -Isaya is watching from above (honesty that's creepy), can the murder of Touma infront of his eyes from kaien (who just stated that he does not want to kill all purebloods) be targeted to him?

maybe, I suspect isaya was just bait to bring Kaien and that isaya was not kaname's primary target, Touma/Kaien was. Kaien obviously figured out how to find Kaname, because Kaname led him there.

I agree with knightmare’s theory here cuz it ties up with my above interpretation.

Kaname’s initial “target” was Kaien >>>
1. He planned the incident in front of Isaya’s house in order to lure Kaien there…
2. He “fooled” Kaien and made him kill Touma for the reasons I said above.

Also I was wondering … since Isaya is Kaien’s friend didn’t he care for his wellbeing? Cuz is obvious that IF Kaname wanted to kill Kaien he could do that in a blink of an eye! Why he was standing there apathetic?
Moreover since afterwards Kaname could have proceeded with Isaya’s elimination…
Could it be that Isaya knows something more??? I’m thinking again the “anonymous” note he received lol.

juliet wrote: I am proposing that perhaps kaname wants to persuade and to convince kaien that he is acting in order to kill all purebloods and in order to provoke him more.

I think so too! And a possible reason could be what you wrote beneath >>>

juliet wrote: if Isaya had not been the target then a part of Kaname's plan is to lead others or all or perhaps the hunters specifically in believing that he intends to kill them all.
(apparently as his did that trick to Kaien to also make him a believer of that theory and perhaps to get rid of Touma, two tartgets in one).

Excellent theory juliet!!!

I think Kaname’s goals are:

1. To keep Yuuki away for him >>> his plan is to make her lose faith in him and he is using Kaien for this purpose. In fact I think that is possible the same to apply for Hanabusa as well. Look at the last panel with Akatsuki and Hanabusa … Akatsuki threw fire-balls between him and Hanabusa and left … Why he did that? Could be that he did it in order not to follow him Hanabusa??? It’s just a guess maybe I’m totally off base here lol.

2. To convince first Kaien and then the hunters that he is indeed aiming to wipe off all the PBs.

Why is that? Currently I’m thinking that a possible reason is to prevent the hunters of going after him. If so his prediction is correct cuz as we saw the hunters have no intention to stop him since they revealed that they want ALL the PBs DEAD!
So if they’ll be sure that Kaname’s plan is indeed what they thinking (>>through Kaien who probably will deliver that message) then the road for him will be clear from interruptions. As it seems the hunters are planning to oppose Kaien and Kaien is planning to keep Yuuki away form Kaname! So Kaname is “free” to proceed with his plan.

Now the question remains though … is Kaname’s plan to annihilate ALL the PBs OR he wants everyone to think so cuz it serves him?????

juliet wrote: How did Touma ended up there? Is it connected to Yuuki's incident? He says that he was used.. But from whom? Kaname? Or the scene is deliberately deceiving and Touma had been used by someone else in the past?

This incident is indeed very strange haha. From what I have understood thus far:

- Touma was used by Kaname >>> thus and the subtitle “Puppet”
- As for how Touma ended up there; my interpretation is that Kaname somehow controlled/used Touma’s bats to form an illusion of his body. So when Kaien slashed him appeared the dead body of Touma, cuz it was his bats aka an alter-version of him.
I remembered the scene with Zero and Touma … Zero threatens to shoot him even if there were only his bats and apparently Touma was scared and left >>>
Zero: “Disappear … I don’t care that this is just an alter version of you, I’ll still beat it to a pulp until it doesn’t work anymore.”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-51058-13/vampire-knight/chapter-60.html

juliet wrote:
That's a possible scenario but then it changes the course of things;
if Isaya had not been the target then a part of Kaname's plan is to
lead others or all or perhaps the hunters specifically in believing that
he intends to kill them all.

nina wrote:
3. To convince him that his plan is indeed to kill all the PBs. Look what Kaien is thinking after Kaname’s plan >>> “Kaname is serious about deciding to exterminate all the purebloods.” Viz now Kaien is convinced whereas before he was still questioning Kaname’s intentions >> “After
having changed your mind, is this really the path you’re going to
choose? Yuuki, somewhere deep inside, still believes in you”

nina wrote:
2. To convince first Kaien and then the hunters that he is indeed aiming to wipe off all the PBs.
Why
is that? Currently I’m thinking that a possible reason is to prevent
the hunters of going after him. If so his prediction is correct cuz as
we saw the hunters have no intention to stop him since they revealed
that they want ALL the PBs DEAD!
So if they’ll be sure that Kaname’s
plan is indeed what they thinking (>>through Kaien who probably
will deliver that message) then the road for him will be clear from
interruptions. As it seems the hunters are planning to oppose Kaien and
Kaien is planning to keep Yuuki away form Kaname! So Kaname is “free” to
proceed with his plan.

Now the question remains though … is
Kaname’s plan to annihilate ALL the PBs OR he wants everyone to think so
cuz it serves him?????

I agree with this, it seems to be a likely possibility for me. As we know Kaname doesn't tend to think simplistic or gives out straightforward answers. I noticed he did not answer Kaien's question directly, instead he said, "The answer is so simple really, I just decided to go on another path"-- he did not admit that he is killing purebloods as his plan. However he convinced Kaien that he is indeed killing purebloods because Kaien himself had killed Touma by his hands and Kaname said he killed Ouri and will kill Sara next, moreover asking him to tell Yuki this. Kaname was relaying first hand information to Kaien in a very convincing manner and it did its job. He's now completely convinced, enough to forget the idea that Kaname left without killing Shouto at all.

Another possible supportive fact towards this is the information around is inconsistent:
-one says that Kaname is killing ONLY pureblood head of families --this seems to be the factual one, as we have seen he had killed only the head of Hio clan.
-another says that Kaname is killing ALL purebloods --and this seems to be the general idea given to the hunters , even Yuki and Kaien believed it ("You think I will allow you to stand by while you eliminated the entire Shouto clan??")

nina wrote:
I beg to differ … actually I think is the opposite. Touma’s death
indicates that Kaname is very powerful … he managed to use another PB as
his puppet in order to make Kaien kill him.

exactly. Kaname is considered the king of all vampires. If a normal pureblood has the ability to control lower vampires, then the leader of purebloods would probably have some ability to control purebloods.

nina wrote:
This incident is indeed very strange haha. From what I have understood thus far:

- Touma was used by Kaname >>> thus and the subtitle “Puppet”
-
As for how Touma ended up there; my interpretation is that Kaname
somehow controlled/used Touma’s bats to form an illusion of his body. So
when Kaien slashed him appeared the dead body of Touma, cuz it was his
bats aka an alter-version of him.
I remembered the scene with Zero
and Touma … Zero threatens to shoot him even if there were only his bats
and apparently Touma was scared and left >>>
Zero: “Disappear
… I don’t care that this is just an alter version of you, I’ll still
beat it to a pulp until it doesn’t work anymore.”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-51058-13/vampire-knight/chapter-60.html

Excellent observation It makes sense how he used his bats as a cover or as an illusion to delude Kaien into slashing Touma.
another possibility I've thought to the reason why Touma wanted Kaien to deliver the final blow:
-either he is fed up of being controlled and "punished" by Kaname ---no doubt Kaname would be angry towards him for hurting Yuki, and he had probably controlled and used Touma several times against his will, and will probably use him more in the future. Hence Touma preferred death to cut his strings as a "puppet" than to suffer more.
-Touma came from underneath the surface/dimension hence how he ended up there ---he had the power to transcend between flat surfaces as shown in chapter 60 when he teleported away from Zero. Maybe that was how Kaname managed to deliver his body to that spot ---OR he had already been controlling him and covering him with his bats to appear its him.

Touma also appears to be the head of the Touma clan. Their family seems to be composed of a bunch of midgets so difficult to say for sure but he says he is older than Kaname (implied in chapter60), maybe he means in vampire years as Kaname is 19 and he is older than him hence makes him sort of "head " of the family. If this is true then Kaname is staying true to the idea he is only killing pureblood head of families, contrary to the news he's spreading that he's killing all.

nina wrote:
Also I was wondering … since Isaya is Kaien’s friend didn’t he
care for his wellbeing? Cuz is obvious that IF Kaname wanted to kill
Kaien he could do that in a blink of an eye! Why he was standing there
apathetic?

Moreover since afterwards Kaname could have proceeded with Isaya’s elimination…
Could it be that Isaya knows something more??? I’m thinking again the “anonymous” note he received lol.

Its either the following possibilities:
-Isaya already knew the battle will happen, the illusion Kaname set and Kaien ending up without serious injuries, as well as Kaname's true stance for him to remain unsurprised and a mere "spectator" to the battle. ---this means Isaya here is following the path as Kaname's ally (the letter theory )
OR
-Kaname used Isaya as his audience while he staged Kaien and Touma's fight, for whatever reason. Kaname had probably anticipated that only Kaien as the hunter would be going after him, so he used an illusion before hand and chose to appear near Isaya's house (deliberately intending to be seen?). ---Isaya's role then seems to be more sinister and follows the path as Kaname's other Enemy

I think we'll have some answers next chapter... the plot thickens

nina wrote:

knightmare wrote:
My theory is that he couldn't kill Touma. He killed Hio a couple of days earlier, with the av sword. Its been months since he killed Hanadagi and Nagamichi. I think he had to wait that time because he needed time for his hand to heal after wielding the av weapon, and now after killing Hio, his hand will be injured again. So he used Kaien to do it.

I beg to differ … actually I think is the opposite. Touma’s death indicates that Kaname is very powerful … he managed to use another PB as his puppet in order to make Kaien kill him.

Yes, Kaname is powerful, I don't doubt that. But powerful as he is, it still requires a av weapon to kill a pureblood. He did as Sara did, he used a hunter wielding an av weapon to kill a pureblood.

what I doubted is whether kaname's hand would recover in a couple of days after using the av sword on Hio. We don't know how long it would take, especially when he's probably only drinking blood tablets.

this is my explanation on why he used a hunter/someone else to deliver the last blow is because he had to. why he used kaien, yes, he was passing on a message and possibly trying to provoke something within kaien.

Is he trying to prove how cruel he can be by using kaien to kill? probably. more likely trying to prove he can't be saved, he already knew Kaien will keep Yuuki away from him, but kaien was trying to convince him that yuuki still had faith.

Actually, this scenario reminds me of latest vampire diaries ep

Spoiler:

.

Knightmare wrote:

nina wrote:

knightmare wrote:
My theory is that he couldn't kill Touma. He killed Hio a couple of days earlier, with the av sword. Its been months since he killed Hanadagi and Nagamichi. I think he had to wait that time because he needed time for his hand to heal after wielding the av weapon, and now after killing Hio, his hand will be injured again. So he used Kaien to do it.

I beg to differ … actually I think is the opposite. Touma’s death indicates that Kaname is very powerful … he managed to use another PB as his puppet in order to make Kaien kill him.

Yes, Kaname is powerful, I don't doubt that. But powerful as he is, it still requires a av weapon to kill a pureblood. He did as Sara did, he used a hunter wielding an av weapon to kill a pureblood.

what I doubted is whether kaname's hand would recover in a couple of days after using the av sword on Hio. We don't know how long it would take, especially when he's probably only drinking blood tablets.

this is my explanation on why he used a hunter/someone else to deliver the last blow is because he had to. why he used kaien, yes, he was passing on a message and possibly trying to provoke something within kaien.

Is he trying to prove how cruel he can be by using kaien to kill? probably. more likely trying to prove he can't be saved, he already knew Kaien will keep Yuuki away from him, but kaien was trying to convince him that yuuki still had faith.

Actually, this scenario reminds me of latest vampire diaries ep

Spoiler:

.

Why I don’t believe in that explanation:

1. He killed Hanadagi and his hand had very limited damage >>>
http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/67/33

He was holding that sword for the whole time he was talking with Aidou-dono and when he uplifted his hand to kill him his hand was still in a very good shape>>>
http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/67/35

… but a few minutes later, when he met Ruka and Kain outside his hand was pitch black >>>
http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/68/2

Furthermore as juliet had pointed out previously Kaname had wield that sword as a child and had none side-effect. So I’m leaning to think that the burnt hand has something to do with Aidou-dono’s elimination and not with the usage of the sword itself.

2. But even if the above theory is totally wrong still Kaname’s left hand (the one with which wield the sword) when he visited Hio was perfectly fine >>>
http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/71/20

what I doubted is whether kaname's hand would recover in a couple of days after using the av sword on Hio. We don't know how long it would take, especially when he's probably only drinking blood tablets.

Again … after Hio’s extermination both of his hands were untouched >>>
http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/72/14
http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/72/17

So that’s why I don’t think that he couldn’t use his anti-vampire weapon to kill Touma if he wanted to.

nina wrote:
1. He killed Hanadagi and his hand had very limited damage >>>
http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/67/33

He was holding that sword for the whole time he was talking with Aidou-dono and when he uplifted his hand to kill him his hand was still in a very good shape>>>
http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/67/35

… but a few minutes later, when he met Ruka and Kain outside his hand was pitch black >>>
http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/68/2

i don't know how and why the sword does its damage, but the crackling and burning the sword was doing to kaname above was the same as when he touched kaiens sword. and the damage at the end, was caused by his own av sword.

2. But even if the above theory is totally wrong still Kaname’s left hand (the one with which wield the sword) when he visited Hio was perfectly fine >>>
http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/71/20

Again … after Hio’s extermination both of his hands were untouched >>>
http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/72/14
http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/72/17

Yes, the hand was fine, that was 6-8 weeks later. we don't know how long it took his hand to recover after that melting and burning in 68. but yeah, true his hands are fine after going to Hio, if thats the real Kaname.

what happened at the hio temple isn't clear anyway, we didn't know what happened to Hio and whether he'd been given a death blow by that point in the scene in 70 or not. and we didn't even know whether kaname was/had killed him until Kaien stated that the Hio musoleum had been violated and their witness arrived to find ashes and saw a shadow of Kaname leaving, but there was at least one other person there before Hio turned to ashes, what happened to her? and it looks like there's another body already turned to ashes on the floor.
http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/71/21

so basically, we don't know what kaname was doing, who was killed and how they were killed. we didn't get to see the sword, so its not even clear if he's wielding it there, he may have stopped using it after 68 since we haven't seen it since. or maybe thats just an intentional mislead and kaname's just being incredibly cruel to kaien to prove how much he doesn't care about kaien and his pacifism.

he didn't need to go that far against kaien, kaien was already never going to let yuuki return to him. and he only needed to kill in front of kaien to prove he was serious about killing purebloods, and kaien's not going to see "reason" that its not so bad to kill purebloods nor become a blood thirsty killer because he killed one, i don't believe Kaname's stupid enough to believe/plan that, so then, to prove how unstoppable Kaname is and impossible to dissuade from this course of action? that he becomes impossible to redeem. Kaname didn't need to trick kaien into doing it, thats pathetic and heartless because he's spitting on Kaien's ideals, unless he was forced to do it because he couldn't do it himself.

then again, hino's turned yagari into a hate mongering strawman of a hunter, so maybe she's not above turning Kaname cruel/thoughtless.

EDIT: OR Rido is influencing Kaname, in which case, he could be redeemed.

Kaname used Touma, I think it was him the whole time and Kaname was sort of controlling him the whole time. That's why when Kaien hit "kaname's" arm, he turned into a bunch of bats and flew away. The bats that were used by kaname were covering touma and made to look like kaname. But why would Kaname go to such lengths? Does he not want to dirty his hands any more because he knows yuuki would dislike it? Does he plan on using others to kill the rest of the purebloods as well? I feel sorry for poor Touma, he looked so miserable But Kaname has been using people from the start, so this should come as no surprise. I can't believe he would even use Kaien like that too. I think that Kaname's original plan was to have Isaya Shouto kill Touma when he tried to attack him. Either that or he knew Kaien was following them and planned for kaien to kill him.

how hilarious. indeed such desperation reeks like a bad apple. So now I have found Touma's first sympathizer. Earlier if he was not "used" I bet he would not come out on the picture, but apparently him being "used" boosts Kaname's "bad image" , never mind if he was bad or not.
Or that Kaname just told Kaien to TELL a Lie to Yuki and say he killed Ouri to boost his bad image by his own volition.

Shoujo-Zo18 wrote: Kaname used Touma, I think it was him the whole time and Kaname was sort of controlling him the whole time. That's why when Kaien hit "kaname's" arm, he turned into a bunch of bats and flew away. The bats that were used by kaname were covering touma and made to look like kaname. But why would Kaname go to such lengths? Does he not want to dirty his hands any more because he knows yuuki would dislike it? Does he plan on using others to kill the rest of the purebloods as well? I feel sorry for poor Touma, he looked so miserable But Kaname has been using people from the start, so this should come as no surprise. I can't believe he would even use Kaien like that too. I think that Kaname's original plan was to have Isaya Shouto kill Touma when he tried to attack him. Either that or he knew Kaien was following them and planned for kaien to kill him.

I agree with you... It was indeed very kaname-like of him to use Touma to get his message to Kaein and Kaein to finish off Touma...

According to another source is Kaien who says that Touma has been used as a puppet >>>

Kaien: "You were used as puppet!! If there's a chance, you plan to make me deliver a final blow to him?"

So basically says that Kaname has used Touma as a puppet and that he planned the scene so Kaien to deliver the final blow to Touma. Therefore Touma is dead.

thank you Nina, for clarifying that part to me...

kaname's trick with Touma was a bit confusing...but are we sure that Touma is dead? if so how? he did not turn to crystals infront of our eyes did he?

( I know I've asked that a thousand times probably sounding like a broken record LOL)

Kaname didn't need to trick kaien into doing it, thats pathetic and heartless because he's spitting on Kaien's ideals, unless he was forced to do it because he couldn't do it himself.

kaname is exaggerating here, wanting to persuade badly Kaien that his intentions are far more than real and that Kaname literally can be seen as the enemy of the co-existence.

Actually it seems more as an act to force kaien to view him in such a way, than a real effort to kill Touma ( I believe that Kaname could kill him anytime).

Perhaps in that way he wants to leave no space for doubt, closing even the smallest possibility.
I am not even sure that he Kaname wanted Touma dead, is Touma dead when Kaname stands in such way that the anti-vampire does not touch Touma's heart?

Its all an act for Kaien's eyes and ears (and perhaps Yuuki as well), he wants to indentify himself with the worst.
Perhaps we do not have until now the full picture in order to grasp the actual reality of that act, but the crime had been predetermined and the audience also.

Sweetsolace - "how hilarious. indeed such desperation reeks like a bad apple. So now I have found Touma's first sympathizer. Earlier if he was not "used" I bet he would not come out on the picture, but apparently him being "used" boosts Kaname's "bad image" , never mind if he was bad or not.
Or that Kaname just told Kaien to TELL a Lie to Yuki and say he killed Ouri to boost his bad image by his own volition."

I was simply explaining what I thought happened in the situation... that IS the title of this discussion..is it not? And what's so bad about sympathizing with him...are you that cold hearted? Do you really laugh at people while they are lying on the ground covered in blood, or is this just another way to defend kaname? That is the most childish thing i have seen, laughing at other peoples ideas...childish and selfish. Well yea, obviously Kaname is trying to make himself look bad so yuuki will dislike him and stay out of the way... but that doesn't change the fact that he IS bad... his acts are unforgiveable...>.>

your idea is hilarious, and if you find that offensive thats your problem...
Now you are calling me names for stating the obvious about your desperation and you being Touma's first sympathizer. who's being childish, SELFISH here?

"
I was simply explaining what I thought happened in the situation... that IS the title of this discussion..
"

I feel sorry for poor Touma, he looked so miserable
But Kaname has been using people from the start, so this should come
as no surprise. I can't believe he would even use Kaien like that too.

Earlier if he was not "used" I bet he would not come out on the
picture, but apparently him being "used" boosts Kaname's "bad image" ,
never mind if he was bad or not.
now i throw back the same, this is your way of defending Zero? zoning in on Kaname "using" Touma now as if he's to be sympathized?

LOL ok. moving on.

I don't see how having Kaien kill Touma makes Kaname look worse.

Most groups (vampires, hunters) in VK already acknowledged that Kaname has been killing purebloods. Touma's death fits that formula. Its not a surprise.

Nobody is saying that Kaname is deriving pleasure from these killings or is drinking the blood of his victims. It seems to be most people's opinion that Kaname's pureblood genocide is to protect Yuuki.

Well yea, obviously Kaname is trying to make himself look bad so yuuki will dislike him and stay out of the way... but that doesn't change the fact that he IS bad... his acts are unforgiveable...>.>

The rules of evil and good in VK are different from the real world. So far, I don't see Yuuki changing her opinion of Kaname, even after Kaname killed Aidou's father. Kaname is not aiming to have Yuuki hate him: I really think he has other plans.

(btw, I'm a fellow Zeki, hang in there Shoujo-Z018)

Edit: I would normally have sympathy for people bleeding on the ground, but Touma attacked Yuuki without cause and he almost killed Hanabusa. Touma gets no sympathy from me.

caela wrote:I don't see how having Kaien kill Touma makes Kaname look worse.

Most groups (vampires, hunters) in VK already acknowledged that Kaname has been killing purebloods. Touma's death fits that formula. Its not a surprise.

no it doesn't, but for his haters will often find REASONS to make it look like its worst. even sympathizing with someone like Touma.

Nobody is saying that Kaname is deriving pleasure from these killings or is drinking the blood of his victims. It seems to be most people's opinion that Kaname's pureblood genocide is to protect Yuuki.

of course not. and yes seems to be the genocide reason is to protect Yuki, though in my opinion it is more implied than stated.

The rules of evil and good in VK are different from the real world. So far, I don't see Yuuki changing her opinion of Kaname, even after Kaname killed Aidou's father. Kaname is not aiming to have Yuuki hate him: I really think he has other plans.

as someone I know said before, the "relatable human aspects in vampire knight" makes one RELATE to it eventhough its obviously different, in my opinion if you keep trying to relate to vampire knight you will find yourself judging everyone because what they're doing is wrong---standards of vk are different from ours, IMO everyone there is doing things based on their belief, not only Kaname.

Wow so in a sense Kaname realy wasnt even there....... Its like narutos litle split clone attack or voldemorts horocrux? Kaname can mirror his own image out on a battle field and sit back eating a sandwhich as he watches? XD *amused now* or was he there just spiritually.... I noted the comment earlier about rido possibly still being a factor.. Which could also be true?

Rido did say kaname would never be free of him because he revived kaname. In a sense he is the master .. Kaname the soul he summoned? Meh x.x

Ive been waiting for rido to come backa major part of the picture again. Because he was really cool. Lol.

ckaien wrote:Wow so in a sense Kaname realy wasnt even there....... Its like narutos litle split clone attack or voldemorts horocrux? Kaname can mirror his own image out on a battle field and sit back eating a sandwhich as he watches? XD *amused now* or was he there just spiritually.... I noted the comment earlier about rido possibly still being a factor.. Which could also be true?

Rido did say kaname would never be free of him because he revived kaname. In a sense he is the master .. Kaname the soul he summoned? Meh x.x

Ive been waiting for rido to come backa major part of the picture again. Because he was really cool. Lol.

I wont agree with Rido, he killed a baby, now how cool is that I wonder, anyway...

Kaname's powers seem to be sufficient to control a younger pureblood, as we see Touma was used here. H..yes, he was that ability to be in two places, in chapters 61 we also went to visit Touma in his shadow self I think and give him a blow, so it makes you wonder, was that Kaname all along that we've seen or a Touma in disguise?
Trying to see how Touma ended up dead, because it made no sense...I concluded that his might the main way...

See the spoiler where Kaname goes and touches the blade, actually he is melting his own hand with no apparent reason because he could just avoid that...so might it be that Kaname touches the blade purposely?
to take his regenerating ability away? but not his (because Kaname is not there in reality) but Touma's

Spoiler:

So when Kaien gives the next blow, the casted spell breaks and Touma appears? And again in case that Kaien had not given the certain blow that would mean that Kaname could have done it all by himself?

Again there here a strange think that Kaito says; hunters seem not to recognize the certain weapon that Kaname features but its the same weapon that Rido has used during his attack at the Kurans twice (when he killed Haruka and also when the killed the baby Kaname) at least this is what the picture so...

There is also the aspect that Kaito says here; "I am unsure of how long he can hold on to anti-vampire weapon"...apparently Kaito does not know that Kaname is the ancestor, but again they know Kuran's powers that has to do with anti-vampires...

Knightmare wrote:
My theory is that he couldn't kill Touma. He killed Hio a couple of days earlier, with the av sword. Its been months since he killed Hanadagi and Nagamichi. I think he had to wait that time because he needed time for his hand to heal after wielding the av weapon, and now after killing Hio, his hand will be injured again. So he used Kaien to do it.

So you might be right...even though we did not see Kaname featuring his weapon with Hio, we can not be sure.

May be it's just me, but again Kaname's hand when holding that weapon started bleeding BEFore killing Hanadagi...whereas young he held that weapon with no problem. I don't know, I am exploring the issue here. Something is strange unless Kaname can not in reality wield anti-vampire for too long and now the repeated use is consuming far too much of his energy and so he can not afford it. I am just examining all pespectives and LOL keep wondering....

I think it wouldn't matter who touches the sword, they will still burn if they're a vampire because they're touching the blade part of an antivampire weapon.
If it was Kaname and his hand burned it is different from him wielding the Kuran sword, since he was touching the handle (the safe part) and this time he was touching the blade part.
If it was Touma who touched the blade and it burned, its quite clever way and might explain something. He used his left hand to touch the sword that was then burned (and not functional) and then his right hand used to attack Kaien.

When he killed Hanadagi his hand spurt out blood. When he killed Aido dono it had the same reaction. When he left the scene, he transformed into a bat, which means he can't hold the weapon while he's in bat form, and we saw he transformed back to human when he reached Ruka/Kain and by that time the hand holding the sword already looked burnt/dried up. So the dried up reaction was caused somewhere between transforming to bat and resuming to human form.

Kaname's powers seem to be sufficient to control a younger
pureblood, as we see Touma was used here. H..yes, he was that ability to
be in two places, in chapters 61 we also went to visit Touma in his
shadow self I think and give him a blow, so it makes you wonder, was
that Kaname all along that we've seen or a Touma in disguise?

Im not sure if Touma was indeed that young, he was probably as old as Kaname.
The illusion that was either Kaname or Touma managed to injure Kaien so depends if Kaname can use his powers while the illusion is ongoing or he had used Touma's hand there.

sweetsolace wrote:I think it wouldn't matter who touches the sword, they will still burn if they're a vampire because they're touching the blade part of an antivampire weapon.
If it was Kaname and his hand burned it is different from him wielding the Kuran sword, since he was touching the handle (the safe part) and this time he was touching the blade part.
If it was Touma who touched the blade and it burned, its quite clever way and might explain something. He used his left hand to touch the sword that was then burned (and not functional) and then his right hand used to attack Kaien.

When he killed Hanadagi his hand spurt out blood. When he killed Aido dono it had the same reaction. When he left the scene, he transformed into a bat, which means he can't hold the weapon while he's in bat form, and we saw he transformed back to human when he reached Ruka/Kain and by that time the hand holding the sword already looked burnt/dried up. So the dried up reaction was caused somewhere between transforming to bat and resuming to human form.

Kaname's powers seem to be sufficient to control a younger
pureblood, as we see Touma was used here. H..yes, he was that ability to
be in two places, in chapters 61 we also went to visit Touma in his
shadow self I think and give him a blow, so it makes you wonder, was
that Kaname all along that we've seen or a Touma in disguise?

Im not sure if Touma was indeed that young, he was probably as old as Kaname.
The illusion that was either Kaname or Touma managed to injure Kaien so depends if Kaname can use his powers while the illusion is ongoing or he had used Touma's hand there.

Yes, you are right, they are both touching the blade so inevitably both are going to get hurt by it...but if it was Kaname why going touching it? What I see is that he persists touching it and in the next page I think that its actually Kaien that dodges away...like going "what are you doing?"

It can still be my idea but it would make me more sense if that was Kaname's power submiting the disguised Touma in actually touching the blade and taking his own regenerating power away since there is another blow coming..and Kaname wants to lead Kaien to blow a lethal attack...

anyway just examining because what is exactly happenning there is not clear...

juliet wrote:

sweetsolace wrote:I think it wouldn't matter who touches the sword, they will still burn if they're a vampire because they're touching the blade part of an antivampire weapon.
If it was Kaname and his hand burned it is different from him wielding the Kuran sword, since he was touching the handle (the safe part) and this time he was touching the blade part.
If it was Touma who touched the blade and it burned, its quite clever way and might explain something. He used his left hand to touch the sword that was then burned (and not functional) and then his right hand used to attack Kaien.

When he killed Hanadagi his hand spurt out blood. When he killed Aido dono it had the same reaction. When he left the scene, he transformed into a bat, which means he can't hold the weapon while he's in bat form, and we saw he transformed back to human when he reached Ruka/Kain and by that time the hand holding the sword already looked burnt/dried up. So the dried up reaction was caused somewhere between transforming to bat and resuming to human form.

Kaname's powers seem to be sufficient to control a younger
pureblood, as we see Touma was used here. H..yes, he was that ability to
be in two places, in chapters 61 we also went to visit Touma in his
shadow self I think and give him a blow, so it makes you wonder, was
that Kaname all along that we've seen or a Touma in disguise?

Im not sure if Touma was indeed that young, he was probably as old as Kaname.
The illusion that was either Kaname or Touma managed to injure Kaien so depends if Kaname can use his powers while the illusion is ongoing or he had used Touma's hand there.

Yes, you are right, they are both touching the blade so inevitably both are going to get hurt by it...but if it was Kaname why going touching it? What I see is that he persists touching it and in the next page I think that its actually Kaien that dodges away...like going "what are you doing?"

It can still be my idea but it would make me more sense if that was Kaname's power submiting the disguised Touma in actually touching the blade and taking his own regenerating power away since there is another blow coming..and Kaname wants to lead Kaien to blow a lethal attack...

anyway just examining because what is exactly happenning there is not clear...

Kaname put the sword out of the way and persisted holding it despite the flames around his hand. I imagine if it was painful for him he'd not touch it longer. But it seems he has masochistic tendencies like when he persisted touching the Kuran sword after it clearly damaged his hand in chapter 68...

If Kaname intended to hurt Touma with the av weapon I think he would let the blade penetrate his skin, but the flames and burning his hand doesnt seem enough to cut the regenerating powers. I think Kaname had already injured Touma back in chapter 61 but somehow I also doubt if it took off his regenerative powers since we didn't see him use an av weapon. So yes this is a possibility.

sweetsolace wrote:

juliet wrote:

sweetsolace wrote:I think it wouldn't matter who touches the sword, they will still burn if they're a vampire because they're touching the blade part of an antivampire weapon.
If it was Kaname and his hand burned it is different from him wielding the Kuran sword, since he was touching the handle (the safe part) and this time he was touching the blade part.
If it was Touma who touched the blade and it burned, its quite clever way and might explain something. He used his left hand to touch the sword that was then burned (and not functional) and then his right hand used to attack Kaien.

When he killed Hanadagi his hand spurt out blood. When he killed Aido dono it had the same reaction. When he left the scene, he transformed into a bat, which means he can't hold the weapon while he's in bat form, and we saw he transformed back to human when he reached Ruka/Kain and by that time the hand holding the sword already looked burnt/dried up. So the dried up reaction was caused somewhere between transforming to bat and resuming to human form.

Kaname's powers seem to be sufficient to control a younger
pureblood, as we see Touma was used here. H..yes, he was that ability to
be in two places, in chapters 61 we also went to visit Touma in his
shadow self I think and give him a blow, so it makes you wonder, was
that Kaname all along that we've seen or a Touma in disguise?

Im not sure if Touma was indeed that young, he was probably as old as Kaname.
The illusion that was either Kaname or Touma managed to injure Kaien so depends if Kaname can use his powers while the illusion is ongoing or he had used Touma's hand there.

Yes, you are right, they are both touching the blade so inevitably both are going to get hurt by it...but if it was Kaname why going touching it? What I see is that he persists touching it and in the next page I think that its actually Kaien that dodges away...like going "what are you doing?"

It can still be my idea but it would make me more sense if that was Kaname's power submiting the disguised Touma in actually touching the blade and taking his own regenerating power away since there is another blow coming..and Kaname wants to lead Kaien to blow a lethal attack...

anyway just examining because what is exactly happenning there is not clear...

Kaname put the sword out of the way and persisted holding it despite the flames around his hand. I imagine if it was painful for him he'd not touch it longer. But it seems he has masochistic tendencies like when he persisted touching the Kuran sword after it clearly damaged his hand in chapter 68...

If Kaname intended to hurt Touma with the av weapon I think he would let the blade penetrate his skin, but the flames and burning his hand doesnt seem enough to cut the regenerating powers. I think Kaname had already injured Touma back in chapter 61 but somehow I also doubt if it took off his regenerative powers since we didn't see him use an av weapon. So yes this is a possibility.

Haha, you know I am thinking and laughing on my own here that all these mysteries and theories are not enough but now we have to go wondering what happened with Touma there...LOL, it seems that Hino can not draw a scene without a mystery lately...LOL

perhaps next chapter we will know more, for one reason or another why is Kaien is wondering "Kaname wants to eliminate all purebloods OR.."..

what makes him thinking of the OR? Can it be that Touma can be savagely injured but not killed (used yes, killed no)? and therefore Kaien understands that if Kaname had intended to kill Touma he would not have taken advantage of that particular blown that it was not lethal (because the hit that Kaien made was at the right side of Kaname there, so no intention to strike the heart actually)...and Touma seems wounded exactly there. Of course that brings down my "taking his regenerating ability away" but then again that could so also mean that now Touma being badly hurt and Kaien being the one to blame and without the ability to regenerate, Kaien should care for Touma now? haha okay I sound crazy...but can not avoid it...its just so open to it.

juliet wrote:

sweetsolace wrote:

juliet wrote:

Yes, you are right, they are both touching the blade so inevitably both are going to get hurt by it...but if it was Kaname why going touching it? What I see is that he persists touching it and in the next page I think that its actually Kaien that dodges away...like going "what are you doing?"

It can still be my idea but it would make me more sense if that was Kaname's power submiting the disguised Touma in actually touching the blade and taking his own regenerating power away since there is another blow coming..and Kaname wants to lead Kaien to blow a lethal attack...

anyway just examining because what is exactly happenning there is not clear...

Kaname put the sword out of the way and persisted holding it despite the flames around his hand. I imagine if it was painful for him he'd not touch it longer. But it seems he has masochistic tendencies like when he persisted touching the Kuran sword after it clearly damaged his hand in chapter 68...

If Kaname intended to hurt Touma with the av weapon I think he would let the blade penetrate his skin, but the flames and burning his hand doesnt seem enough to cut the regenerating powers. I think Kaname had already injured Touma back in chapter 61 but somehow I also doubt if it took off his regenerative powers since we didn't see him use an av weapon. So yes this is a possibility.

Haha, you know I am thinking and laughing on my own here that all these mysteries and theories are not enough but now we have to go wondering what happened with Touma there...LOL, it seems that Hino can not draw a scene without a mystery lately...LOL

perhaps next chapter we will know more, for one reason or another why is Kaien is wondering "Kaname wants to eliminate all purebloods OR.."..

what makes him thinking of the OR? Can it be that Touma can be savagely injured but not killed (used yes, killed no)? and therefore Kaien understands that if Kaname had intended to kill Touma he would not have taken advantage of that particular blown that it was not lethal (because the hit that Kaien made was at the right side of Kaname there, so no intention to strike the heart actually)...and Touma seems wounded exactly there. Of course that brings down my "taking his regenerating ability away" but then again that could so also mean that now Touma being badly hurt and Kaien being the one to blame and without the ability to regenerate, Kaien should care for Touma now? haha okay I sound crazy...but can not avoid it...its just so open to it.

Kaien seems to be a bit unnerved when Kaname touched his sword. lol. See when he takes it off his grip after Kaname touched it longer than he should.
It must have affected his aim somehow.
I don't know if a pureblood can die by that maybe, lol, Hino needs to make us think while we wait for the chapter

I think Kaien was in general, confused about Kaname's actions hence made him change his mind. I think it was Kaname's way of being so forward about his intentions that made him doubt.

sweetsolace wrote:

juliet wrote:

sweetsolace wrote:

juliet wrote:

Yes, you are right, they are both touching the blade so inevitably both are going to get hurt by it...but if it was Kaname why going touching it? What I see is that he persists touching it and in the next page I think that its actually Kaien that dodges away...like going "what are you doing?"

It can still be my idea but it would make me more sense if that was Kaname's power submiting the disguised Touma in actually touching the blade and taking his own regenerating power away since there is another blow coming..and Kaname wants to lead Kaien to blow a lethal attack...

anyway just examining because what is exactly happenning there is not clear...

Kaname put the sword out of the way and persisted holding it despite the flames around his hand. I imagine if it was painful for him he'd not touch it longer. But it seems he has masochistic tendencies like when he persisted touching the Kuran sword after it clearly damaged his hand in chapter 68...

If Kaname intended to hurt Touma with the av weapon I think he would let the blade penetrate his skin, but the flames and burning his hand doesnt seem enough to cut the regenerating powers. I think Kaname had already injured Touma back in chapter 61 but somehow I also doubt if it took off his regenerative powers since we didn't see him use an av weapon. So yes this is a possibility.

Haha, you know I am thinking and laughing on my own here that all these mysteries and theories are not enough but now we have to go wondering what happened with Touma there...LOL, it seems that Hino can not draw a scene without a mystery lately...LOL

perhaps next chapter we will know more, for one reason or another why is Kaien is wondering "Kaname wants to eliminate all purebloods OR.."..

what makes him thinking of the OR? Can it be that Touma can be savagely injured but not killed (used yes, killed no)? and therefore Kaien understands that if Kaname had intended to kill Touma he would not have taken advantage of that particular blown that it was not lethal (because the hit that Kaien made was at the right side of Kaname there, so no intention to strike the heart actually)...and Touma seems wounded exactly there. Of course that brings down my "taking his regenerating ability away" but then again that could so also mean that now Touma being badly hurt and Kaien being the one to blame and without the ability to regenerate, Kaien should care for Touma now? haha okay I sound crazy...but can not avoid it...its just so open to it.

Kaien seems to be a bit unnerved when Kaname touched his sword. lol. See when he takes it off his grip after Kaname touched it longer than he should.
It must have affected his aim somehow.
I don't know if a pureblood can die by that maybe, lol, Hino needs to make us think while we wait for the chapter

Perhaps it effected his eyes glasses somehow...

Okay kaien shoot straight....

haha, can you imagine Kaien bringing back Touma to the academy and applying his pacifism ideas;
Kaien: Now Yuuki be good to our guests, make some tea...
Yuuki: He blew me !!
Touma: You little bratt you still walk in two?
Kaien: Now you try to behave like brother and sister..Yuuki be a kind nurse and Touma be a nice dwarf!!
Touma: I am not a dwarf you FOOL!!!!!!!!!
Kaien: You are not?
Touma: Ah you can not even aim straight, how could you possibly appreciate a body like mine?
Yuuki:

The incident with Touma is indeed weird and creates lots of questions lol.

Is Touma dead? And if yes then how and where are his crystals haha.

Well we didn’t see Touma scattering into crystals yet … so maybe we’ll see it in the next chapter. After all the scene was cut in there …

Now if Touma is dead how this happened since as we know thus far in order to kill a PB is needed at least one blow with an anti-vampire weapon to take its ability to regenerate and then take the heart or chop its head off (the reverse process has the same results as well).

We only saw Kaien giving one blow to Touma and not on his heart so logically Touma shouldn’t die. But Touma was already injured by Kaname back on chapter 61>>
http://www.mangareader.net/104-52342-2/vampire-knight/chapter-61.html

>> and has a wound and blood on his chest on the heart’s side >>

http://www.mangareader.net/104-52342-3/vampire-knight/chapter-61.html

So is it possible that Kaname took his heart there? If so then one blow from Kaien’s sword would be the final one. Also Kaien’s words back on chapter 65 >>
“Yesterday the HEAD of the Touma family got punished SEVERELY. Thanks to that we couldn’t meet him.”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-57815-15/vampire-knight/chapter-65.html

Ergo Kaien confirms that Kaname’s hit wasn’t so simple after all and the fact that he couldn’t meet him is fishy… But again even if Kaname took his heart, Touma should be in position to regenerate and heal himself even slowly hence Kaien’s blow wouldn’t be the final. The time in between the two incidents I think is enough to do so.

But what if Kaname “possessed” Touma the whole time since then? As we saw he used Touma’s bats to create a “hologram” of himself in order to trick Kaien. Also when Kaname had visit Touma to punish him for his attack to Yuuki he was there using his bats again.
Additionally … he touches Kaien’s sword and his hand seems to “evaporating” >>
http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/75/9

So I’ve been thinking what if Kaname was also using the same trick (Touma’s bats) when he killed Hanadagi and Aido-dono thus his hand was pitch black at the end?
Well is just a possibility haha … But if so … where is the real Kaname??? (drinking his tea with Isaya inside the house )

And something lastly … I saw some comments about the poor Touma who was only a child and brutally murdered haha

Touma isn’t a child!! >>>

1. “How dare this girl (Yuuki) claim that my bats have any similarity with those of A MERE KID LIKE HIM (means Kaname)? What an insulting girl really…”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-49597-23/vampire-knight/chapter-59.html

2. “YOUNG MISTER “leader” of our people”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-52342-3/vampire-knight/chapter-61.html
Touma thought that he is very older than Kaname no? Probably he doesn’t know that Kaname is an ancestor.

3. Kaien: “Yesterday the HEAD of the Touma family got punished SEVERELY. Thanks to that we couldn’t meet him.”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-57815-15/vampire-knight/chapter-65.html

So apparently Touma despite his appearance probably is an old PB … how old we don’t know yet but certainly isn’t an innocent child and he is also the head of his clan!