Rido and Kaname

I don't know if Rido came to be before Kaname or after him, and I wanted to know how and why...

Kaname is the original Kuran ancestor . Rido is supposed to be Kaname's descendant . Most probably Kaname's grandson . So Kaname was first .

Rido awaken Kaname from his slumber . Then Kaname return his body to a baby . So technically Kaname's present body is younger than Rido .

Kaname and Rido share an incredibly strong Blood-Bond...Even in death Rido can still be a threat. He could possibly be able to take over Kaname's mind...

I have a question about this v




just how could it be Kaname's fault for Rido to be born ? in which way ? is it simply b/c of what mariangie said v

mariangie wrote:Kaname is the original Kuran ancestor . Rido is supposed to be Kaname's descendant . Most probably Kaname's grandson . So Kaname was first .

Kaname was the grandfather not the father, no ? then how he was responsible for this ?

and wasn't Kaname in slumber when Rido and his siblings were born ? or did he actually meet them ?

Falc0n wrote:I have a question about this v




just how could it be Kaname's fault for Rido to be born ? in which way ? is it simply b/c of what mariangie said v

mariangie wrote:Kaname is the original Kuran ancestor . Rido is supposed to be Kaname's descendant . Most probably Kaname's grandson . So Kaname was first .

Kaname was the grandfather not the father, no ? then how he was responsible for this ?

and wasn't Kaname in slumber when Rido and his siblings were born ? or did he actually meet them ?

Your first question is still a mystery … many of us have questioned about this Kaname’s line. There are some theories flying here and there but nothing solid based on facts. So I hope that Hino will answer that in the future. My feeling is that the answer might lie in Kaname’s past that we do not know yet or it could be just the simple explanation that Kaname feels responsible cuz Rido is his descendant … Kaname has this tendency lol

About your second question … Kaname most likely is the grandfather of Rido, Haruka and Juuri. It is not stated so clearly but is something that derives from many innuendos here and there … when others are talking about the first king or referring to Kaname’s great-grandfather, probably are talking about Kaname.

And if so then Kaname have met Rido, Haruka and Juuri prior his slumber. If you remember in the extra chapter with the umbrella where Juuri narrates her love story with Haruka to Yuuki she says >>

Juuri: “I pleaded with grandfather to let me spend three years in a town without any vampires … I was allowed to on the condition that “Haruka is with me”, but I’m trying to enjoy my happy school life!” (volume 10)

So if Kaname is their grandfather he definitely had lived with them and also seems like the head of the family … I mean Juuri didn’t plead to her father but to grandfather for permission.

From this also we can assume:
- that Kaname could have gone into slumber approximately 3000 years before since Juuri’s age when she died was around 3000 years. It could be less and more less, but not over 3000 years.
- and also that maybe Kaname’s relation with Rido wasn’t so good from back then??? The grandfather sent Haruka to accompany Juuri and not Rido who as the firstborn it should have been him the first option for Juuri’s fiancé.

Therefore if we combine this preference to Haruka with the line that Rido’s birth/existence is a miscalculation of Kaname then there is the space to theorize that Rido had showed his true colors long before Kaname’s slumber.

nina wrote:

Your first question is still a mystery … many of us have questioned about this Kaname’s line. There are some theories flying here and there but nothing solid based on facts. So I hope that Hino will answer that in the future. My feeling is that the answer might lie in Kaname’s past that we do not know yet or it could be just the simple explanation that Kaname feels responsible cuz Rido is his descendant … Kaname has this tendency lol

I guessed that it might be as simple as that.. but still... it's somehow weird ^^;

and what does he think he should have he done back then if he sensed something sinister about the baby ? to kill him ??

hmm so Rido was a devilish child xD even his eyes colors are unique.. just where did he get those colors ? aren't his parents both the same as Haruka and Juri ?

nina wrote:

And if so then Kaname have met Rido, Haruka and Juuri prior his slumber. If you remember in the extra chapter with the umbrella where Juuri narrates her love story with Haruka to Yuuki she says >>

Juuri: “I pleaded with grandfather to let me spend three years in a town without any vampires … I was allowed to on the condition that “Haruka is with me”, but I’m trying to enjoy my happy school life!” (volume 10)

So if Kaname is their grandfather he definitely had lived with them and also seems like the head of the family … I mean Juuri didn’t plead to her father but to grandfather for permission.

thanks for the quote, perhabs I skipped reading those lines I don't remember them xD, I should check that extra chapter again ><

hmm so their grandfather who was ruling the family might be Kaname ? ah, no wonder Juri had so much fun teasing little Kaneme xD

And he was so strict for their safety.. so before he entered the slumber the situation of the world was that bad ..hmm

Back to Rido, when he was talking to Kaname about his true nature and what he should have done to Yuki's freedom, chains, leash etc. in this page

http://www.mangareader.net/104-47679-29/vampire-knight/chapter-58.html
and the one after it
http://www.mangareader.net/104-47679-30/vampire-knight/chapter-58.html

was he simply reading his mind ? or maybe.. he actually witnessed those things with his own eyes with his grandfather (Kaname) and grandmother ? xD

Falc0n wrote: I guessed that it might be as simple as that.. but still... it's somehow weird ^^;

and what does he think he should have he done back then if he sensed something sinister about the baby ? to kill him ??

Nope … I meant something like what he said to Rido in his nightmare > “You truly are a person who embodies my faults Rido…” OR another version > “… an existence that resembles the collection of my dirty parts Rido”
http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/76/24

But it’s also known how much Kaname downgrades himself as well, feeling responsible for everything …
But I really hope that there is a story behind this line and not something so simple lol.

hmm so Rido was a devilish child xD even his eyes colors are unique.. just where did he get those colors ? aren't his parents both the same as Haruka and Juri ?

Another mystery there … were the different colors of Rido’s eyes just to make him somehow creepier when Yuuki remembered those scary “watchful” eyes; or to point out that it was him when took over Shiki’s body? Or as you said Rido hasn’t the same parents with Haruka and Juuri?

My theory was exactly this … that Rido had different mother than Haruka and Juuri … actually that his mother was from the Hio family thus his one blue eye (since Hio family has light colors) but also his madness since the Hios had a heredity to madness. This idea crossed my mind because Rido was engaged to Shizuka >> half sister of his, since and this fact is to wonder why?

This could also explain why Kaname feels that it was his miscalculation Rido’s birth if he allowed or didn’t manage to prevent a union between his son and the daughter of the Hios.
Cuz there is also another mystery … what happened to Juuri and Haruka’s parents? How did they die; for example? Why we do not know anything about them?

Ofc these are only speculations and Hino could have a total different explanation or even none cuz as the time goes by I really wonder when she’ll address all these mysteries? So maybe we’ll be left with the question mark lol.

thanks for the quote, perhabs I skipped reading those lines I don't remember them xD, I should check that extra chapter again ><

hmm so their grandfather who was ruling the family might be Kaname ? ah, no wonder Juri had so much fun teasing little Kaneme xD

You are welcome

Yes … her teasing is another hint since we know that Juuri and Haruka knew from the beginning that Kaname wasn’t their real son but their ancestor. But this was a subject that as it seems was never discussed … Haruka revealed that he knew who Kaname actually was minutes before he dies and Kaname was startled by this. Maybe Kaname thought that they didn’t know the truth? Or in any case this issue was very painful for all of them so they didn’t bring it up ever.

And he was so strict for their safety.. so before he entered the slumber the situation of the world was that bad ..hmm

Well as the story tells the Kuran’s were always prime targets and Haruka was also strict to Juuri (after Kaname’s slumber). Again in the chapter where Cross remembers how Juuri asked him to taken care of her unborn child (i.e. Yuuki) Juuri said that she managed to escape from Haruka and guards’ surveillance >
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2171-18/vampire-knight/chapter-45.html

So I guess their safety was always at stake and the Kuran men were always protective to the females of the family out of love but also out of necessity.^^

But my feeling is that despite that Kaname could have been strict as the head of the family, Juuri and Haruka must have loved him because they chose to give to their firstborn Kaname’s name plus cuz they loved him so much as if he was their child after his awakening. Thus it is to wonder why Rido had different feelings for the ancestor Kaname and vice versa. (???)

Back to Rido, when he was talking to Kaname about his true nature and what he should have done to Yuki's freedom, chains, leash etc. in this page

http://www.mangareader.net/104-47679-29/vampire-knight/chapter-58.html
and the one after it
http://www.mangareader.net/104-47679-30/vampire-knight/chapter-58.html

was he simply reading his mind ? or maybe.. he actually witnessed those things with his own eyes with his grandfather (Kaname) and grandmother ? xD

My interpretation is that Rido in his current form (as dregs) has the role of a mirror as Kaname said i.e. he reflects Kaname’s thoughts, inner fears etc. So, in the chapter with Kaname’s contradictions, plus in his nightmare had exactly that role to show the struggle in Kaname’s mind.

But there are too many hints that he knows more about Kaname’s past. The question is though; does he know cuz he had lived a part of that past? OR it was solely Kaname’s thoughts/memories that Rido was just voicing?

However, in any case the image of Yuuki chained or free with flowers wasn’t something that happened but it was symbolic of Kaname’s “dilemma” which actually was a pseudo-dilemma since he knew and we know that he couldn’t (and didn’t want) to keep Yuuki chained for the rest of her life to ensure her safety.

But the depiction with the hooded girl beneath which resembles Yuuki so much could be a hint of Kaname’s horrible past experience … for example that girl to have been his wife who lost her life thus and Rido is twisting the knife into Kaname’s wound there.

Ps. All of these “mysteries” have been discussed in older threads. If you are interested for more theories you may take a look. ^^

mariangie wrote:Kaname is the original Kuran ancestor . Rido is supposed to be Kaname's descendant . Most probably Kaname's grandson . So Kaname was first .

Rido awaken Kaname from his slumber . Then Kaname return his body to a baby . So technically Kaname's present body is younger than Rido .

But that doesn't make Rido older than Kaname in the intelligence...only regarding his body...Kaname remembered everything after his 6 years old(so i think).
Even if Rido was living inside Kaname now that would only mean that he's desturbing Kaname's mind and life with things as:Killing Yuuki with his own hands or even worst hings...since he said he would kill ALL the purebloods and all...
ps:that's just what i think anyway,my opinion counts too!

Nope … I meant something like what he said to Rido in his nightmare > “You truly are a person who embodies my faults Rido…” OR another version > “… an existence that resembles the collection of my dirty parts Rido”
http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/76/24

But it’s also known how much Kaname downgrades himself as well, feeling responsible for everything …

in short, Rido's character resembles Kaname's dark side, no ?

and for Rido to call Kaname "a monster", makes me wonder how far Kaname went back then... hmm "the great sin" ?

Another mystery there … were the different colors of Rido’s eyes just to make him somehow creepier when Yuuki remembered those scary “watchful” eyes; or to point out that it was him when took over Shiki’s body? Or as you said Rido hasn’t the same parents with Haruka and Juuri?

I'll go with this one... the others sounds lame to me

My theory was exactly this … that Rido had different mother than Haruka and Juuri … actually that his mother was from the Hio family thus his one blue eye (since Hio family has light colors) but also his madness since the Hios had a heredity to madness. This idea crossed my mind because Rido was engaged to Shizuka >> half sister of his, since and this fact is to wonder why?

huh ? when or where this was mentioned ?

if this is true, then his mother must have been a Hio. and a his father a Kuran.

This could also explain why Kaname feels that it was his miscalculation Rido’s birth if he allowed or didn’t manage to prevent a union between his son and the daughter of the Hios.

or maybe it was Kaname who forced his son into it ? that way it will be totally his fault

Cuz there is also another mystery … what happened to Juuri and Haruka’s parents? How did they die; for example? Why we do not know anything about them?

Ofc these are only speculations and Hino could have a total different
explanation or even none cuz as the time goes by I really wonder when
she’ll address all these mysteries? So maybe we’ll be left with the
question mark lol.

yup, yet another mystery..

just when we'll finish missing around with Sara ?? it became tiresome and annoying *sigh*

wasn't this supposed to be the last arc of VK ? yet Hino is fooling around with us when there are tons of mysteries to be solved.

Yes … her teasing is another hint since we know that Juuri and Haruka knew from the beginning that Kaname wasn’t their real son but their ancestor. But this was a subject that as it seems was never discussed … Haruka revealed that he knew who Kaname actually was minutes before he dies and Kaname was startled by this. Maybe Kaname thought that they didn’t know the truth? Or in any case this issue was very painful for all of them so they didn’t bring it up ever.

yup, Kaname thought that and was shocked that they actually know.
and you stated the reason very well.. yes, sure it was painful

Well as the story tells the Kuran’s were always prime targets and Haruka was also strict to Juuri

So I guess their safety was always at stake and the Kuran men were always protective to the females of the family out of love but also out of necessity.^^

yeah, and I really dislike that about the Kuran men.

even if it was out jealousy of even protection, to treat their women that way, gets on my nervous

you already mentioned Haruka's case.

and Rido went as far as imprison his fiancee in a cage, he must have got the influence from his grandfather. xD





my guess is that Rido knows Kaname by living and experiencing and not through reading his memories. and that Rido witnessed his grandfather Kaname doing this to his wife (the Kuran grandmother) aka locking her away, putting invisible or actual leash on her to prevent her from going out to participate in some events maybe..

thus Rido was surprised he gave Yuki freedom xD




^ and my guess that what Rido meant with the "true nature", is that he was a strict controlling husband.. or maybe more about his dark side in general.


And I was so annoyed to read specific Kaname sayings to Yuki :

"take care of the house while I'm gone" ( is she a dog ? xD glad you decided against this and went out Yuki ! )

"If you're good then I'll be back to fulfill your wishes" (as if addressing a pet or a naughty kid )

"from now on little by little you'll increase your connection with the outside world.. I won't stop that" ( this supposed to be one of her rights not something you kindly allowed, Kaname. even if this is for her safety )

" parts of me wants to lock you away all for myself " ( what selfish cruel desire. similar to having a pet. glade you understood it doesn't work or your wife might break... or break away to actually do something ( reckless ) "instead of doing nothing" as Isaya put it when he talked with Yuki )

"..I would want you to know the entire truth.. and when that the day came, the you who listened to me obediently.. wouldn't be able to endure it any longer "
(arrgh! how much do I hate those words when addressing a wife! well of course she won't endure it, Kaname. just please do tell us what else you're hiding from her >< )

look, I know for sure that he worships the floor Yuki walking on, and he must have loved his past wife dearly... but still, for me it's unbearable <_<

But my feeling is that despite that Kaname could have been strict as the head of the family, Juuri and Haruka must have loved him because they chose to give to their firstborn Kaname’s name plus cuz they loved him so much as if he was their child after his awakening. Thus it is to wonder why Rido had different feelings for the ancestor Kaname and vice versa. (???)

perhabs Rido recieved an unequal treatment from him to that of Haruka and Juri ? or Rido was so disobedient/disrespectful to him unlike Haruka and Juri ? or maybe both ? xD

Ps. All of these “mysteries” have been discussed in older threads. If you are interested for more theories you may take a look. ^^

ah, I know thanks for reminding me,^^
though I wasn't referring to the contradiction/despair one ^^;

Falc0n wrote: huh ? when or where this was mentioned ?

if this is true, then his mother must have been a Hio. and a his father a Kuran.

Nope, isn’t mentioned that Shizuka is Rido’s half sister … maybe it came across wrong but like I said this is my theory. The fact is that Rido was engaged to Shizuka < this is to wonder why? It could be for many reasons (political etc) but as we know PBs intermarry thus I came up with the idea that Rido might be sibling with Shizuka.

As for the rest of your post about how Kaname treated his wife in the past or Yuuki I completely disagree. Kaname was the one who “rebelled” to the idea of keeping Yuuki in a basement and at that point he already had his memory back.

As it seems with what we know thus far his pseudo-dilemma was; to keep Yuuki protected "chained" in the mansion; or set her free and go to fulfill his plan? Something that as we saw, meant that he also had to leave Yuuki.
Thus and his phrase; that a part of him wanted to keep her only to himself.

Moreover he had already announced her existence in the vampire society so he had taken his decision, thus I said that the depicted dilemma wasn’t actually truthful.

^ and my guess that what Rido meant with the "true nature", is that he was a strict controlling husband.. or maybe more about his dark side in general.

If you take their convo from the beginning Rido says >>

“How long are you going to continue being the “kind big brother?”
“Why are you hesitating? Have you forgotten your true self?”
(the above portion is from the official volume)

So, he says “true self” and not “true nature” and combining it with his first phrase “kind big brother” he meant for how long Kaname will keep his true identity (that he’s not Yuuki’s real big brother/oniisama) from Yuuki. This also is reinforced from the development … after that Kaname disclosed to Yuuki his true identity with a part of his past as well.

But anyway …

ah, I know thanks for reminding me,^^
though I wasn't referring to the contradiction/despair one ^^;

Me neither … I meant theories about the mysteries in general in VK.

I believe that Kaname and Rido do have similarities..(Looks, personality) But Kaname's "nature" Could be a mix of good and bad...

For me , Rido is full brother of Haruka and Juuri . From both father and mother sides . The reason I think he has two different eye colors is because of his parents being siblings . A non - harmful inherited mutation .

The madness part could be a mixture . Part could be inherited because of the incest part . Part could be because he didn't get what he wanted : the Kuran throne and Juuri . As he lost his main reasons for living .

A huge speculation :
What I can imagine is when Rido was born ; his family considered his different eyes color condition as a sign of bad luck and / or madness . Even Kaname could had a vision of a two - eye color pureblood who turned evil in the future . Maybe Kaname considered killing Rido as a small baby then desists . After all , the baby was his own blood . His wife could even prevented Kaname to take such extreme measure .

I did suspect Rido had some kind of involvement in the events that are related to Kaname's despair in the past . I don't think he was the mastermind . But if an unknown White Chessmaster exists . That Chessmaster could had use Rido for his own purposes . Rido could had being the one responsable of killing his grandmother . As he can use anti - vampire weapons ( as probably she could also ) . Rido could had being responsable of his parents demise . We had absolutely no idea of what happened yet . This is a mystery requiring answers .

mariange says:I did suspect Rido had some kind of involvement in the events that are related to Kaname's despair in the past . I don't think he was the mastermind . But if an unknown White Chessmaster exists . That Chessmaster could had use Rido for his own purposes . Rido could had being the one responsable of killing his grandmother . As he can use anti - vampire weapons ( as probably she could also ) . Rido could had being responsable of his parents demise . We had absolutely no idea of what happened yet . This is a mystery requiring answers .

That's quite an speculation...but i liked it^^
Kaname's real enemy is the one that's involved with the Twins Curse...The Hooded Woman's death and Rido as well...that's why Kaname's killing the Pureblood to take the attention of everyone in the underworld of Vampires! iI know...it's confusing,but if you think about it,the only one who would be able to do this things is someone with the same age as Kaaname Kuran

This is just a thought but, what if Rido is one of Kaname's sons? XD

nina wrote:

Nope, isn’t mentioned that Shizuka is Rido’s half sister … maybe it came across wrong but like I said this is my theory. The fact is that Rido was engaged to Shizuka < this is to wonder why? It could be for many reasons (political etc) but as we know PBs intermarry thus I came up with the idea that Rido might be sibling with Shizuka.

hmm.. a convenient theory indeed.

As for the rest of your post about how Kaname treated his wife in the past or Yuuki I completely disagree. Kaname was the one who “rebelled” to the idea of keeping Yuuki in a basement and at that point he already had his memory back.

My speculation was that maybe he was too possessive/protective of his wife to the point of snatching a huge portion of her freedom. and taking protection as a justification. so perhabs after her death he regrets doing this and he found that even Haruka and Juri following his path at this, but he decided to loosen up the chain for Yuuki to live her freedom happily.


Yet he kept Yuuki locked for a year and threaten to punish her if she let someone in or if she went out.
ah, it's to protect her. the man have every right to do that ! *rolleyes* and the same for Juri and the other Kuran females too.
so glad that he decided to do something about that pseudo-dilemma of his, by fulfilling his plan and not by locking women in.


And about "kind big brother ", the word "kind" is what caught my attention. And I took what Rido said as " he was not that kind and he is not her big brother "

or why else Rido felt the necissity to add "the kind" to "big brother" as he teased Kaname ? he could exclude it and the meaning will be solved *shrugs* thus I concluded that his "true self" as you put it is a strict ancestor.

sure when you lose someone precious tragically and you get to live a second chance with her/him, you'll be kinder and you'll fulfill his every wish for his happiness. Perhabs that's why I find his romantic side a bit too much for me. an overdose of love and romance beyond normal and so much unexplained sadness.

Me neither … I meant theories about the mysteries in general in VK.

I see, my bad, thanks for the invitation then xD I'll definitely check them out without saying

mariangie wrote:
A huge speculation :
What I can imagine is
when Rido was born ; his family considered his different eyes color
condition as a sign of bad luck and / or madness . Even Kaname could had
a vision of a two - eye color pureblood who turned evil in the future .
Maybe Kaname considered killing Rido as a small baby then desists .
After all , the baby was his own blood . His wife could even prevented
Kaname to take such extreme measure .

yup, I'm with that speculation.

another one is that Rido back then might have got his hands on some powerful curse that gave his eye that color xD

Falc0n wrote:
sure when you lose someone precious tragically and you get to live a second chance with her/him, you'll be kinder and you'll fulfill his every wish for his happiness. Perhabs that's why I find his romantic side a bit too much for me. an overdose of love and romance beyond normal and so much unexplained sadness.

The thing is after being through so much pain, despair and lonliness, i think holding onto the person you love tightly is quite a understandable action. You keep them close, even to the point of locking them up due to the fear of losing that person and going through more years of pain and suffering. But Kaname rose above this, he let Yuuki go, even though he did not want to he did for her sake and because he knew she would be unhappy locked in a cage. So in essence Kaname put Yuuki's happiness and freedom above his own feelings and his fear of lonliness and despair. If thats not a sign of love i'm not sure what is and also to me show's Kaname does have a kind side. ,

I suppose it can be seen Kaname's love, as a bit too much, but love is maddening, it takes you heart, body and soul. It can consume you. People love in different ways and each way is not compatible to every person. Hence why there are so many different relationships in the world between different people. I suppose to understand more fully we'd have to experience love ourselves.

mariangie wrote:I did suspect Rido had some kind of involvement in the events that are related to Kaname's despair in the past . I don't think he was the mastermind . But if an unknown White Chessmaster exists . That Chessmaster could had use Rido for his own purposes . Rido could had being the one responsable of killing his grandmother . As he can use anti - vampire weapons ( as probably she could also ) . Rido could had being responsable of his parents demise . We had absolutely no idea of what happened yet . This is a mystery requiring answers .

And interesting idea mariangie and a possibility that should not be overlooked. In a way that gave Kaname more reason to want to get rid of Rido and if rido was involved could there be a possibility also that the council was too in some shape or form?

@About Rido in the present: I wonder if Rido is just a symbol of Kaname's contradictions or if he is still alive on some level and attatched to Kaname? If its the latter i wonder how far his influence extends over Kaname (thats if he has any)?

Falc0n wrote: My speculation was that maybe he was too possessive/protective of his wife to the point of snatching a huge portion of her freedom. and taking protection as a justification. so perhabs after her death he regrets doing this and he found that even Haruka and Juri following his path at this, but he decided to loosen up the chain for Yuuki to live her freedom happily.

OR it could be totally the other way around … exactly cuz of his loss (or many losses) he became more protective in order to not experience another loss >>

Kaname: “I’m frightened that one day you’ll give up your life for something meaningless Yuuki. I never want to experience that again.”

So, where are you basing your speculation?

Yet he kept Yuuki locked for a year and threaten to punish her if she let someone in or if she went out.
ah, it's to protect her. the man have every right to do that ! *rolleyes* and the same for Juri and the other Kuran females too.
so glad that he decided to do something about that pseudo-dilemma of his, by fulfilling his plan and not by locking women in.

Orly?

She was so afraid of Kaname’s punishment that she overlooked his will without second thought. Also his scolding was so severe that he took her into his arms >>
http://www.mangareader.net/104-40425-29/vampire-knight/chapter-56.html

>> falling asleep onto her lap >>
http://www.mangareader.net/104-40425-34/vampire-knight/chapter-56.html

And she was so afraid of him that she punched his familiar >>
http://www.mangareader.net/104-43743-12/vampire-knight/chapter-57.html

>> and Kaname was so serious about it that he chuckled enjoying her reaction>>
http://www.mangareader.net/104-43743-13/vampire-knight/chapter-57.html

I think we should be able to distinguish the drops of comedy with a dose of exaggeration from the serious parts.

Therefore on a serious mode …

- Do we forget that they had to sneak in at their own home from a secretly path and not from the front door?

- Was this Yuuki >>
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2178-27/vampire-knight/chapter-50.html
>> in a state to take care on her own self and moreover to be left to wander freely on the streets?

- Isn’t stated a few times that this isolation was necessary for a set period of time? >>
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2178-39/vampire-knight/chapter-50.html

- Was Kaname happy having Yuuki indoor? >>
Hanabusa: “He is already worrying himself sick feeling bad about you having to stay hiding indoors for your safety…”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2178-34/vampire-knight/chapter-50.html

- And bottom line … had Yuuki any objection at all? Or she accepted her isolation out of fear for Kaname’s punishment???>>
Yuuki: “I prefer not endangering this treasured place where Kaname-senpai and I can live together now.”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2178-36/vampire-knight/chapter-50.html

So really I cannot understand from where are stemming all these accusations about Kaname being abusive “locking women in” *rolleyes me here* and the sarcasm about his pseudo-dilemma!

Do you have any reference which shows that after a whole year of ill-treatment, abuse, isolation and threats, Yuuki is a victim of such behaviour and harsh conditions? Cuz I suppose any being treated in the way that you’re implying should be traumatized …
From what I’ve seen though, Yuuki now is stronger and more independent woman than she was a year ago.

Yuuki: “He returned Artemis. I was allowed to see a glimpse of the past … he is telling me that I can change.”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-58423-15/vampire-knight/chapter-66.html

Change in what? Being an indoor scared housewife???

And in any case Yuuki whenever had a different opinion from Kaname, had voiced it and acted accordingly and it was actually Kaname the one who was submissive to her will >>

- When she said to Kaname that she won’t speak to him …
- When she opposed to him to leave the academy prior the danger was over for the DC.
- When she grabbed her Artemis playing the reaper trying to change something in this bloody world, etc…

Yuuki’s “freedom” thus far at least coincides with his complete abnegation and instead of being admirable he is being accused as an abuser? *rolleyes again*

I thought this worn out issue had settled after Kaname left her … but I guess I was wrong.

Bloodredhead wrote: The thing is after being through so much pain, despair and lonliness, i think holding onto the person you love tightly is quite a understandable action. You keep them close, even to the point of locking them up due to the fear of losing that person and going through more years of pain and suffering. But Kaname rose above this, he let Yuuki go, even though he did not want to he did for her sake and because he knew she would be unhappy locked in a cage. So in essence Kaname put Yuuki's happiness and freedom above his own feelings and his fear of lonliness and despair. If thats not a sign of love i'm not sure what is and also to me show's Kaname does have a kind side. ,

I suppose it can be seen Kaname's love, as a bit too much, but love is maddening, it takes you heart, body and soul. It can consume you. People love in different ways and each way is not compatible to every person. Hence why there are so many different relationships in the world between different people. I suppose to understand more fully we'd have to experience love ourselves.

Even though Blood I can understand your point, yet I beg to differ for one reason… Is this our case here?
Was it Yuuki hidden in the mansion for a year out of Kaname’s whim or out of his need to have Yuuki only for himself or because his love for her was maddening?
Without doubting that he adores her beyond limits and being able to do everything for her … I mean he was satisfying his own needs or his possessiveness keeping Yuuki in the mansion?

Cuz as far as I can understand this was a necessity until he could set the stage for:
- Giving time to Yuuki to adjust as a vampire.
- Taking his position as the leader of the vampire society
- Prepare Yuuki’s debut in vampire society where he could announce her existence >>
Kaname to Kain:“In order to protect her, I need everyone to know of her existence…”

- Sign the new treaty with the hunters.
- Taking back Artemis (from the hunters) in order to give it to her before she could walk on the streets as he did right after the ball.

Where is the evidence that Kaname had the intention to cage Yuuki out of his own insecurities/needs?

All that I’m seeing is his efforts from the start to prepare her in order to be able to walk freely her path even if that meant that he should be separated from her taking a lonely, bitter and maybe self-sacrificing road.

nina wrote:

Bloodredhead wrote: The thing is after being through so much pain, despair and lonliness, i think holding onto the person you love tightly is quite a understandable action. You keep them close, even to the point of locking them up due to the fear of losing that person and going through more years of pain and suffering. But Kaname rose above this, he let Yuuki go, even though he did not want to he did for her sake and because he knew she would be unhappy locked in a cage. So in essence Kaname put Yuuki's happiness and freedom above his own feelings and his fear of lonliness and despair. If thats not a sign of love i'm not sure what is and also to me show's Kaname does have a kind side. ,

I suppose it can be seen Kaname's love, as a bit too much, but love is maddening, it takes you heart, body and soul. It can consume you. People love in different ways and each way is not compatible to every person. Hence why there are so many different relationships in the world between different people. I suppose to understand more fully we'd have to experience love ourselves.

Even though Blood I can understand your point, yet I beg to differ for one reason… Is this our case here?
Was it Yuuki hidden in the mansion for a year out of Kaname’s whim or out of his need to have Yuuki only for himself or because his love for her was maddening?
Without doubting that he adores her beyond limits and being able to do everything for her … I mean he was satisfying his own needs or his possessiveness keeping Yuuki in the mansion?

Cuz as far as I can understand this was a necessity until he could set the stage for:
- Giving time to Yuuki to adjust as a vampire.
- Taking his position as the leader of the vampire society
- Prepare Yuuki’s debut in vampire society where he could announce her existence >>
Kaname to Kain:“In order to protect her, I need everyone to know of her existence…”

- Sign the new treaty with the hunters.
- Taking back Artemis (from the hunters) in order to give it to her before she could walk on the streets as he did right after the ball.

Where is the evidence that Kaname had the intention to cage Yuuki out of his own insecurities/needs?

All that I’m seeing is his efforts from the start to prepare her in order to be able to walk freely her path even if that meant that he should be separated from her taking a lonely, bitter and maybe self-sacrificing road.

I was not saying it was his only cause or reasons, as there are several like the one's you have just mentioned. The adjusting her to being a Vampire etc. I was looking at just the one aspect of his reasoning as to why he maybe so possessive, and to do with his contradictions. I feel that his despair in the past was one of the causes for why he kept Yuuki so close, he does not want to lose her or feel that pain again. He finally has a light or as rido said 'a flower that only blooms for him'. It was not his only reason i feel but its one that i feel helps explain/give some understanding, towards his actions etc in regards of Yuuki and also to me shows how much he loves Yuuki as he planned to let her be free and reveal her to everyone, even with any of his contradictions and fears running through him.

I was not saying it was his only reason and also that he was going to keep her locked up. I was just looking at one aspect and side of the overall effect and reasoning to his contradictions.

Hope that explains my view a bit better. I'm not the best at explaining my thoughts in written words.

Yet he kept Yuuki locked for a year and threaten to punish her if she let someone in or if she went out.
ah, it's to protect her. the man have every right to do that ! *rolleyes* and the same for Juri and the other Kuran females too.
so glad that he decided to do something about that pseudo-dilemma of his, by fulfilling his plan and not by locking women in.

About being "kind brother", there are many ways to interpret this, for me Rido states the obvious that Kaname is not her real brother and he does not show his "deepest" intentions about "chaining" her to his side; apparently this would be easier for Kaname too, but as i just stated and as we have seen they are nothing more than intentions.

And Rido apparently confirms that with this phrase because he states "Kind brother", "how long are you going to continue being the kind brother?"

So if you take every word that Rido says literally you can not deduct the conclusion that Kaname had been treating Yuuki badly and certainly not because of love feelings...

the phrase once more....
"how long are you going to continue being the kind big brother?" [/b]

How is it possible that Kaname still to continue being the Kind big brother according to what you say above? do you see another contradiction there that you are stating. You looked at the "kind" but what about the whole phrase " HOW LONG>>>CONTINUE BEING KIND"

So even if Rido is taunting Kaname is he depicting a reality that happened? No...Did Kaname tried to chain her? No, he gave her freedom, perhaps despite his own love wishes and intentions, but just intentions as Rido states them; the intentions of a man crazy in love that wishes to keep his girl all to himself.

Therefore there is a clear distinction between intentions (and no one can be blamed solely because of his intentions) and true actions that proved to be the way, the path that actually led to Yuuki's freedom later on.

I think that Hino here wants to show the depth of Kaname's love desires for Yuuki and his inside torture that the decision to leave her side is causing him and a way to highlight his passion and his love. Logical if we think that he left later on, so there had to be some sort of a scene where we should know his true feelings, especially now that he has put the mask on. Much more than this, the scene prepare us for the ancestor revelation and the "contradiction", "ancestor past" that tortures Kaname...

nina wrote:
OR it could be totally the other way around … exactly cuz of his loss (or many losses) he became more protective in order to not experience another loss >>

Kaname: “I’m frightened that one day you’ll give up your life for something meaningless Yuuki. I never want to experience that again.”

So, where are you basing your speculation?

Your speculation is very respectful and valid too.
But I personally think he is less possessive now, he has loosen the chains to Yuuki. Didn’t he gave her artimis and let her go now to do as she please ?

logically back then as ancestor, he didn’t let his wife go like that. it wasn’t safe back then, no ?
But now it’s safe for Yuuki to go. b/c he is now fixing what he didn’t fix back then.
I doubt he gave his wife willingly an opportunity to sacrifice herself. She must have went behind back. or how come she sacrificed herself and he’s just watching ??

The base of my bolded lines, I told it to you before
what Rido teasing Kaname “until when you plan to continue playing the kind big brother to her ?”
And I saw his teasing as : “Kaname is being a very kind brother with Yuuki. On the other hand, in his past as ancestor, he wasn’t this kind with his wife. he was strict.“

@juliet:
You misunderstood what I said. We both agree on the same point. The bolded lines above this explains what I actually meant. ^
And moreover, I never mentioned the word “abusive”. nina-san did.

Orly?

She was so afraid of Kaname’s punishment that she overlooked his will without second thought. Also his scolding was so severe that he took her into his arms >>
http://www.mangareader.net/104-40425-29/vampire-knight/chapter-56.html

>> falling asleep onto her lap >>
http://www.mangareader.net/104-40425-34/vampire-knight/chapter-56.html

And she was so afraid of him that she punched his familiar >>
http://www.mangareader.net/104-43743-12/vampire-knight/chapter-57.html

>> and Kaname was so serious about it that he chuckled enjoying her reaction>>
http://www.mangareader.net/104-43743-13/vampire-knight/chapter-57.html

I think we should be able to distinguish the drops of comedy with a dose of exaggeration from the serious parts.

pardon, but when did I say she was “afraid” ?? I didn’t even get to speak about her side/reaction.
All I talked about was him and I said he must have threatened her = warned her.

“Exaggerated comedy”? *taste the words* hmm and when you come across one, you laugh then flip the page and imagine that nothing happened *nods nods* or maybe imagine the opposite.

are you implying that this comedy is off topic ? adds nothing to the serious plot ??

I’m sorry but all I personally see is that Hino smartly delivered the point in a funny way. if she put it in a serious one, it would turn ugly.. or at least.. uncomfortable.

So after you laughed, what was the meaning/message behind all those scenes again?
That this was a fun game and Kaname would appreciate it if Yuuki done it more often? It entertains him~ ? woho~ ! do another round Yuuki ~ !

or rather that.. he would appreciate it if she don’t take that risk right now? and that he gets worried ?

And What aura was he is giving here again for disobeying his warnings ?
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/vampire_knight/v12/c056/22.html
it doesn’t look at least like a happy aura to me. but oh no~ it adds nothing to the plot, right ? because omg~ it’s comedy ! eeeks ! he’s actually making that face to make Yuuki laugh ! xD Yuuki is laughing too ! she doesn’t look tense at all LOL
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/vampire_knight/v12/c056/23.html
oops it’s comedy ! so I’ll just imagine it didn’t happen, yup, comedy is off topic. *nods nods*

on serious note :

Kaname flashed the “I’m stronger than you” warning card to her at the academy. Yet he felt that she’ll break if he forced her into his well. So he softens up and let her have her way. And that was the type of threat/warning I meant. he warns her then softens up ! Yes, he is kind to her.

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/vampire_knight/v08/c041/17.html
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/vampire_knight/v08/c041/19.html

so does his speech sounds romantic to you ?? reminding her she’s powerless, can do nothing and that he can force her ?? doesn’t this sounds like scolding for not bending to his well ??
but yeah, he let her have her way in the end, so we can just imagine he didn’t say it, right ?


And after the Touma incident
“it’s okay if I’m punished”
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/vampire_knight/v12/c060/30.html
But Yuukiii~ I thought it was okay for you to go out.. Why you say “Kaname punishing you” was even an option ?? why did you felt the need to even mention such a thing out of the blue?! remember ? you’re his fiancée~!.. you two are supposed to be equal~ Why do you feel like his naughty child ?? really such a mystery ! xD


Next Kaname bit her twice after the Touma incident. Yup, sure I do understand that it’s sweet & pleasurable. And he might be comforting himself with it. But it’s punishment. And he scolded her in his kind sweet way reminding her like a child of how weak she is. And how much he was worried. So does he look so pleased that she went out and took that risk? The answer is no, absolutely not.


Later on he refers to it as “a bitter medicine”. In short it means “ it was wrong of her to go out wandering acting reckless and now she learned the lesson “ but why he didn’t teach her how to use her “pureblood powers” instead of keeping her in ?? hello ~? she’s a powerful pureblood ! the reason is simply b/c Hino chose not to, and preferred to keep Yuuki as weak as she is at that time.

Therefore on a serious mode …


- Was this Yuuki >>
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2178-27/vampire-knight/chapter-50.html
>> in a state to take care on her own self and moreover to be left to wander freely on the streets?

She was denying herself, starving and Kaname was away most of the time. so like always, she’ll drink his blood and she’ll be alright
She looks like that like 24/7 (?? )Yet she felt the need to go out behind his back from time to time, and felt the need to do something regardless of her agreeing to Kaname’s logic for keeping her in for her safety. Why ? it’s such a mystery ! xD

though I must say that Hino at Yuuki's angst over her human side doesn't make sense to me.
Hino could have overstepped that. wasn't Yuuki's vampire side her true self?? and didn't she say before leaving the Academy she was out of all her misreries and fears and that she craves Kaname's blood ?? didn't she bite Kaname already in the Academy??

so why Hino made her take a step backward angisting over her human side denying the blood she lusts for ?? tsk tsk.. sounds to me like yet another Zero here. no, even worse. at least Zero knows how to use his fangs although no one tought him, yet Yuuki needed to be locked and tought something supposed to be instinctual hmm..
http://www.mangareader.net/104-58423-21/vampire-knight/chapter-66.html
http://www.mangareader.net/104-58423-22/vampire-knight/chapter-66.html

but on the other hand, Yuuki mysteriously knows how to kiss deeply, she kissed Kaname at the Academy, and at the mansion she can kiss good without trouble.. hmmm...

- Isn’t stated a few times that this isolation was necessary for a set period of time? >>
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2178-39/vampire-knight/chapter-50.html

- Was Kaname happy having Yuuki indoor? >>
Hanabusa: “He is already worrying himself sick feeling bad about you having to stay hiding indoors for your safety…”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2178-34/vampire-knight/chapter-50.html

- And bottom line … had Yuuki any objection at all? Or she accepted her isolation out of fear for Kaname’s punishment???>>
Yuuki: “I prefer not endangering this treasured place where Kaname-senpai and I can live together now.”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2178-36/vampire-knight/chapter-50.html

*sigh* I know darling. And I know he’s kind to her. and I know he wants her free and happy.
I said it in pseudo-dilemma thing and you took it as pure sarcasm.

to make myself clear, I meant in short:
Instead of locking his women in, which was a temporary solution, he decided to solve the core of the problem permanently for Yuuki’s happiness. and that I’m so glad that he did. or else Yuuki will be kept locked. Thus pseudo-dilemma solved. And thus Yuuki is now wandering freely.

I can see that she’s out already ages ago, I’m not blind. Now where is the sarcasm in the lines I said above ? I simply analyzed how I see the situation. *shrugs*

And Yup, Yuuki agreed.*nods nods* the problem is that Hino made her accept it. And to be exact, Yuuki cooperates with this temporarily situation but not actually happy about it. if she felt happy about it, she’ll show the usual smile while saying it. And will not grip the desk like that. Look closely
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2178-36/vampire-knight/chapter-50.html

so in short, Yuuki became obedient ! Kaname says Yuuki is obedient !! LOL !
"the you that listened to me obediently"
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/vampire_knight/v13/c065/27.html

b/c a good wife obeys her husband *adjusts grandma’s glasses* umm which century we live in again ? and I thought we went past this. Hmm..

So really I cannot understand from where are stemming all these accusations about Kaname being abusive “locking women in” *rolleyes me here* and the sarcasm about his pseudo-dilemma!

Do you have any reference which shows that after a whole year of ill-treatment, abuse, isolation and threats, Yuuki is a victim of such behavior and harsh conditions? Cuz I suppose any being treated in the way that you’re implying should be traumatized …

Over protective, possessive, controlling are the words I meant.

But “abusive ??” such a strong and untruthful word for the situation, and most of all, I don’t recall saying that word or mean it.

That type of locking is never an abuse. If your parents grounded you for sometime in the house, should I sue them for abuse and ill treatment ? nope. Absolutely not.

But Shizuka's type of locking is without a doubt abusive.

“Threats ?” yes, in his kind gentle way.

“Isolation ?” yes, this can be true. If it’s that dangerous for her to go out, why not bring people in to spend some time with her ??

Hino made Aido just doing his job as boring as that. Ruka came once to teach her how to walk with high heels and we didn’t get to even see her.

so where is the fun ?? why not Bring Rima and Shiki and have a tea party with her?? why not have a girlish talk with Ruka ?? why not bring Sayori or arrange a meeting with her instead of Sayori risking her life to see her ??
Why not Kaname accompany her to somewhere far far away under the rain/snow or in a flower garden or in a beautiful forest ??
He is sooooo veeeeeery busyyyy~ to even think about that ?? not a valid excuse to me.

From what I’ve seen though, Yuuki now is stronger and more independent woman than she was a year ago.

Yuuki: “He returned Artemis. I was allowed to see a glimpse of the past … he is telling me that I can change.”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-58423-15/vampire-knight/chapter-66.html

Can’t you feel the superiority in the words she says about him ? “I was allowed to see” “he’s telling me that I can change”
Doesn’t theses words sound submissive to you ?? doesn’t it give superiority to him ??

To hit the nail on the head of what I’m trying to tell you all along and I was rolling my eyes at:
You know what’s the problem in their relationship ? in short few words ? they are not equal. Hino made Yuuki voice it clearly many times just before Kaname left her after spending a whole year :
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/vampire_knight/v13/c066/10.html
“nothing is going to happen until I become his equal”

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/vampire_knight/v13/c066/12.html
“equals.. huh”

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/vampire_knight/v13/c066/14.html

"I’m still so far, I can’t even think of saying we’re equal”

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/vampire_knight/v13/c066/15.html
And the next page she talked like “ I was allowed to see…” “he’s telling me I can change..” and I’m sorry but I understand it as “you may change now, Yuuki. You have my permission”


She views herself as lower. And she views him as her superior.
that what got on my nervous during their whole time together in the mansion.

He’s deciding things for her. Yup, for her own good in his point of view. But she have the right to decide for herself. yet she simply accepts and obeys. And at that point, as it is, it's not a healthy relationship to me. And Yuuki understands that very well by voicing the “equal” thingy.

And from what I’ve seen.. After a whole year, she’s still as weak as ever.

After a whole year, when she tried to take her role as a kuran princess after Ouri’s death in the party Kaname simply sent her home like a child. And she simply obeyed, even though she didn’t like it. Yup, she’s obedient.
Kaname: “that’s my job, so you don’t have to take part of this Yuuki” why are you deciding for her ?? remember ? she's a Kuran too !

Yuuki “after what happened .. we were just ushered silently back to the car that came to pick us up” she obeyed ! such a good girl ! does she sound happy to you saying that ??

“And so came to an end.. my first foray outside in a whole year” Hooraaay ! this promises a bright future to the role of such a well experienced princess. I’m speechless!

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/vampire_knight/v12/c056/
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/vampire_knight/v12/c056/2.html

And does she look so happy to you being sent like that ? nope, yet she cooperates with his wish and obeyed !

Much like preparing her as Kuran princess really. b/c at that time Shes a kuran princess for show only. After a whole year from the lack of the experience of the outside world , she’s still clueless and he treats her as such. Keeping secrets away from her. She will know his secrets eventually, only when he allows it . and when is that ? my guess when it’s too late for her to fix anything. he seems well prepared about her knowing his secrets. So In the end he want to have it his way.
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/vampire_knight/v13/c065/27.html

However what gave me hope, was Yuuki deciding finally to call him just Kaname without the honorifics.
and her "wanting to start over"

so why Yuuki want to start over if everything all along was alright ?? and what’s the significant sign of her deciding finally to call him Kaname without the "sama" or "senpai" ??

that's what I was addressing here. those lines above made me respect Hino and filled me with hope to see an independent heroine.

Now I’m looking forward to ch81 to see how the Kaname/Yuuki conversation will be. if what she actually said “this will not happen again” was true. Well, glad you realized what went wrong at the situation you’re in, Yuuki !

b/c even at ch 80 she was willing to simply go back with Kaname if he was actually came to her back. Ahh and what about the night class you re-opened, Sara and the day class, Yuuki ? nah, they can go to hell, I want my Kaname !


Much like a mature princess really. She’s still a weakling, dependent and a crybaby to me. You might say it’s b/c “the blinding love” ? well it’s not an excuse if she really wanted to practice what she preach and to achieve what she left the mansion for.

Change in what? Being an indoor scared housewife???

During that year you can’t claim that she didn’t learn to be a wife. She Learned to keep her hair long, wears and masters high-heels for Kaname's whims, knowing Kaname’s taste in her clothes. That’s it’s okay for him to change her and see her naked body.

But if she actually learned anything about the vampire world and history from the books she brooded over, she wouldn’t sway her artimis clumsily infront of purebloods for a childish reason like “I must do something somehow” LOL Great just great. An epic quote from the Kuran princess ! It reflects how much she knows what she’s doing. And how much she learned during the year.

And it reflects she doesn’t fully understand the meaning of her action and how purebloods would view it.
I bet she expected them to say "aww, how nice of you~ let me give you a hug~" xD her face when Aido moved immediately to protect her when Isaya said "chop your head off" was priceless! xD but good thing she regained her composure immediately after it xDD

- When she said to Kaname that she won’t speak to him …
- When she opposed to him to leave the academy prior the danger was over for the DC.
- When she grabbed her Artemis playing the reaper trying to change something in this bloody world, etc…

-Kawaii~ xD
-Yup, I agree on this. I personally think she had more personality back then, than when she got in the mansion.
-Yup, although that was clumsy of her. yet he wants to do “something”. I’ll give her points for trying. *nods nods*

Still, over all, she’s obedient, And Kaname has stated that fact.
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/vampire_knight/v13/c065/27.html

and such submissive heroines are an eyesore to me.
I don’t respect Yuuki until she grows a backbone instead of having everyone stepping in to protect and babysit her. and say outloud something similar to what Ruka said :
“don’t treat me like a weak girl”
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/vampire_knight/v16/c080/7.html

I bow down to Ruka for these great words. Yeah That’s the feminine pride I’m looking for !

Cuz as far as I can understand this was a necessity until he could set the stage for:
- Giving time to Yuuki to adjust as a vampire.
- Taking his position as the leader of the vampire society
- Prepare Yuuki’s debut in vampire society where he could announce her existence >>
Kaname to Kain:“In order to protect her, I need everyone to know of her existence…”

- Sign the new treaty with the hunters.
- Taking back Artemis (from the hunters) in order to give it to her before she could walk on the streets as he did right after the ball.

Respectful justifications. And I won’t disagree.
Yet locking is locking. Hino could have done so much fun stuff through it. But she didn’t.

Hell, And I thought after the lovey dovey couple got together and moved to the mansion, they’ll live a happy honeymoon and I’ll see another version of Haruka and Juri. I’ll see Kaname laugh, Yuuki pampering him, playing fun games, pocking fun at everyone, practicing her pureblood powers, trying to cook something and fails. Discussing some fun info about the other purebloods or memories at the Academy.

But Instead, Hino gave me a gloomy, dull, angisty Yuuki who rarely smiles. yet as cluless as before. Spaced out, bored, doing boring stuff. and starving. where was that charming, courageous, outgoing, fun Yuuki at the Academy ?? dead without a trace !

and Kaname, even being with his one and only love, he rarely smiles, his face as blank as before, still have angst and sadness. those specific chapters regardless of the few sugar coated fluff really gave me a heavy unpleasant feelings + boredom that made me drop the manga a year.

Yuuki’s “freedom” thus far at least coincides with his complete abnegation and instead of being admirable he is being accused as an abuser? *rolleyes again*

I thought this worn out issue had settled after Kaname left her … but I guess I was wrong.

I don’t think it’s coincidence. it’s related. (aka my persuade drama short note)
Admirable ? *blinks* umm well, sorry darling not everyone admires your fav character ^^; yet I don’t dislike all what he is either. Nor Yuuki. Nor Zero
Regardless, I have faith in Hino and her manga to unfold nicely in the end.
“worn out” ? hmm.. I'm sorry if that’s what you feel about the issue. *shrugs* we can stop here.

@Falc0n: You make alot of valid points there and your right while in the mansion there was little equality in the Yume relationship. It was the realtionships flaw really. This was partly due to Yuuki had always placed Kaname on a pedestool before so probably hard for her to change her way of thinking so fast, and also Kaname did treat her like a child sometimes with reasons others have given before(Yuuki has been described by many as a baby or lion cub, Kaname to me was not the only one who saw Yuuki as a child in some senses).

However i believe the inequality issue in Yume is being resolved. It began when Kaname gave Yuuki more freedom and by him leaving. I have always believed one reason Kaname left Yuuki was he knew she had to spread her own wings, and could not do this under his shadow. (I'm not saying it was his only reason or his major reason for leaving, i just see it as in my mind being one reason of the many). Yuuki's been making her own decisions (her offer of being a reaper for PB's, Nightclass etc) She's standing on her own two feet and starting to be more asertive. I've viewed the Yume seperation as a good thing as its given Yuuki the chance to step up more and try to get on a more equal level in her own mind. And in this new chapter she has gone to confront Kaname to me on a more equal level. Having artemis out states she is serious and won't back down. She won't be submissive, and i think Kaname's small smile when he turns and see's her, he knows she is not going to back down. This indicates a more equal footing in my opinion.

I suppose to see how far Yuuki has come and whether she has become on a more equal footing to Kaname, will be seen more clearly by the next chapter.

@juliet:
You misunderstood what I said. We both agree on the same point. The bolded lines above this explains what I actually meant. ^
And moreover, I never mentioned the word “abusive”. nina-san did.

Falcon my point was that;

either Kaname was a kind brother to Yuuki and therefore -yes you have reasons to suspect that perhaps in his past he was not - So Rido is right (and he has to be right about both parts) and therefore he was KIND in all sense and all the points there above contradict with your attempt to prove that Kaname was keeping in Yuuki as a prisoner inside

-because apparently KIND BROTHER, punishment and prisoners do not go together...

Or you can not take Rido's words literally and basing on them to judge the past Kaname.

I do not know if you can see the contradiction in there but there is a flaw in Kaname continuing being the KIND brother and locking Yuuki inside and punishing her at the same time.

You wrote many points and even though your post is not directly addressed to me but to Nina's response, I would like to address some issues, unfortunately not enough time though to do so, I have to be quick.

Anyway a point in general that i saw in your writing and i would like to ask;

To hit the nail on the head of what I’m trying to tell you all along and I was rolling my eyes at:
You know what’s the problem in their relationship ? in short few words ? they are not equal. Hino made Yuuki voice it clearly many times just before Kaname left her after spending a whole year :
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/vampire_knight/v13/c066/10.html
“nothing is going to happen until I become his equal”

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/vampire_knight/v13/c066/12.html
“equals.. huh”

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/vampire_knight/v13/c066/14.html

"I’m still so far, I can’t even think of saying we’re equal”

speaking about equality but are they equal? are they really equal?

can we compare Kaname's experience and powers or mentality with Yuuki?

Yuuki is not even equal with Zero, so to speak.

So do you have to be equal with someone in order to love him? No, the course of the manga proves that itself.

Do you have to be equal to be in a relationship? No, apparently not, they are already inside of a relationship and they both fought for this, lets not stand to a tree and forget the forest.

They are not humans to have the same age and experiences and be equal, the one is an ancestor and the other one is a seventeen years old brat that does not know how the vampire society works.

Does that mean that they can not have a relationship? that they can not love and support each other? No, certainly not.

There are many types of relationships that work and develop even at unequal grounds.

There are adults that are seeking such relationships because different needs are covered example the child-parent relationship where the one partner is the one that protects, the other enjoys but as his own share he/she submits to the other, it does not have to do with gender, any one of the two can have the parent role (and many families have women that lead the decisions at home and the male submits).

Later on these kind of relationships alter, develop, progress because no one needs remain unchanged to the passage of time.

So starting from this observation that applies to our own human and real society, is there a problem in these relationship with equality? can you characterize them unhealthy? for whom? to whom they are unhealthy?

And what I mean to say with that, its let's not start with the stereotypes dragging conclusions from a generalized point, there are cultures and cultures, types and types of relationships that work/function/ develop under totally different circumstances and no one can define them problematic or unhealthy.

Kaname’s and Yuuki’s relationship has certain elements that really resemble these kind of relationships but on top of that Kaname is her only relative and not just her boyfriend, he is the one responsible for her overall existence and we can not pass this point, because its crucial.

If it was not crucial, Hino would not have assigned to Kaname this double role of being her brother/ancestor and she wouldn’t have also directed the script in such way that once the brother role is demolished by Kaname – he leaves.

I did not see any reaction at all when Kaien as her step-dad slapped Yuuki at the face and scolded her because she wanted to follow Kaname. And I do not mean to twist the subject but for me its totally rational that Kaname ought to protect her and restrict her also as her sole family, lets forget the love affair issue for a while, like a senior to her she was his responsibility either she felt equal or unequal (and that’s her matter to solve, not his).

This is what Haruka and Yuuri did on their own way (I am not comparing but there seems to be a need for Yuuki to be sheltered while vulnerable and Yuuki was vulnerable when she was a kid- she was also vulnerable being again a pureblood – thus the toddler’s depictions and Aidou’s characterizations), but this is also what Kaien did with Yuuki providing her a jar where she could grow up safe and always inside the grounds of the academy.

A fake Yuuki living a fake reality where yes she could smile having no awareness, no sense of who she was but also how her real parents were dead trying to protect her, how her only and true alive relative was guarding her overall existence and suffered away from her, how the shadows of the past would haunt her future, fake, fake, fake…

So why Kaname’s role as her senior, elder, family, brother stops when they leave the academy with Yuuki? Does the script stop there? Is the society suddenly full of angels? In the same society that tried to kill her many times before, and while she is in no condition to protect herself, should kaname’s role as her family to stop upon their arrival at the mansion? Is this the end or the beginning/continuation of his role? A role assigned to him by Yuuri.

So let’s not forget that part, it’s a role that was assigned to him and he made it through risking his own feelings and convenience for that. Now if Yuuki can not deal with her the realization that he is too good for her, I personally could not care less because these supposed problem never stopped them to kiss and to love each other. Yuuki is not stating that now but since a life-time. Eventually she will come over it as she does every time that they kiss – in terms of her desires nothing changes – as the vampire inside her said; the vampire inside me does not care. We know that, we did not expect the vampire to tell us…lol…

She views herself as lower. And she views him as her superior.
that what got on my nervous during their whole time together in the mansion.

He’s deciding things for her. Yup, for her own good in his point of view. But she have the right to decide for herself. yet she simply accepts and obeys. And at that point, as it is, it's not a healthy relationship to me. And Yuuki understands that very well by voicing the “equal” thingy.

And from what I’ve seen.. After a whole year, she’s still as weak as ever.

If she is as weak as you say (and I mean in her a psychological and she can not view Kaname as her equal, can not take the right decisions for herself, can not feed herself, can not determine which path she wants to follow) then how can you expect her to be equal to Kaname? And why are you throwing the ball to Kaname?

What purebloods powers to teach her? He gave her gallons of blood, he insisted to feed on his blood. Was this accidental? Yuuki’s power prove to grow and come into action when they are triggered by incidents, that’s what I see.

the fact that she recognizes it is the problem? or the problem is that she has too distance to grow and to cover until she can feel as his equal through her own observations, experiences, point of view… with whose qualities do you expect her to be equal? Kaname's? is Kaname responsible for Yuuki being in that state? where is his fault when she can not feed herself? Where is his fault when he is teaching her history and she does not understand? Where is his fault when she takes Artemis and decides to become the ripper? Where is his fault where Touma attacks her? And where is his fault if she can not lift Artemis and she can not defend herself as she did with Rido? Is he supposed to teach her what she has proven to know naturally?

For me the problem can be solved with two ways; either Yuuki shall gather her own experiences from the world and she will decide that she can now be his equal ( what a revelation!) and move on.

Or she is going to see that they can never be totally his equal and also comes to terms that no one cares, Kaname does not care in order to love her, the vampire in her does not care, the society does not care, so who cares?

Its not only Kaname that had pseudo-problems but also Yuuki here, and its up to Hino to end Yuuki’s as she did with Kaname’s. And since she solved the one….

Juliet has already covered many points with which I totally agree. So my reply is supplementary (I hope ^^;)

Falc0n wrote: But I personally think he is less possessive now, he has loosen the chains to Yuuki. Didn’t he gave her artimis and let her go now to do as she please ?

logically back then as ancestor, he didn’t let his wife go like that. it wasn’t safe back then, no ?

You are basing your speculation on Rido’s words >>

what Rido teasing Kaname “until when you plan to continue playing the kind big brother to her ?”
And I saw his teasing as : “Kaname is being a very kind brother with Yuuki. On the other hand, in his past as ancestor, he wasn’t this kind with his wife. he was strict.“

I do not know how this phrase might have anything to do with Kaname’s wife in the past since Rido adverts clearly to Yuuki > “kind big brother” < except if you think that Kaname played the “bad/strict big brother” to his wife as well.
Furthermore since now we know what followed that scene we can be more sure that Rido was referring to Kaname’s “secret” that he isn’t Yuuki’s big brother but her ancestor.

For you seeing Kaname as a “dictator” I guess is logical to coming to this conclusion. For me Kaname’s nature is the opposite and the logical is that a being acquires a “fear” or a behaviour as aftermath of a bad experience.
As a matter of fact this is what you are saying as well >>

I doubt he gave his wife willingly an opportunity to sacrifice herself. She must have went behind back. or how come she sacrificed herself and he’s just watching ??

Exactly my thoughts. If his wife sacrificed her life or anyway she died due to the conditions of the vampires’ world and Kaname didn’t succeeded to PROTECT her then it makes more sense now being more protective or overprotective if you like with Yuuki in order to avoid the old outcome.
Anyway we shall see when Kaname’s past will be revealed.

pardon, but when did I say she was “afraid” ??

You said >>

Falc0n wrote: Yet he kept Yuuki locked for a year and threaten to punish her if she let someone in or if she went out.

When someone threatens someone else to punish him then the logical feeling is fear. Except if the “threats” aren’t in a serious mode or are nonexistent lol. Thus my point, that Yuuki didn’t afraid that Kaname will actually punish her.
And btw I do not remember Kaname to have ever threatened Yuuki O.O … do you have something specific in mind?

Or how a kind brother as you say combines with threats, punishments, and locking up as Juliet has pointed out twice???

All I talked about was him and I said he must have threatened her = warned her.

Excuse me but the threat isn’t equal to warn. Are related words but with different gravity.

Threaten: pose a threat to, present a danger to. (synonyms): intimidate, bully, menace, terrorize.

Warn: notify of danger, potential harm or risk. (synonyms): notify, inform, advise, caution, make someone aware etc…

I think the difference in these two terms is huge lol.

“Exaggerated comedy”? *taste the words* hmm and when you come across one, you laugh then flip the page and imagine that nothing happened *nods nods* or maybe imagine the opposite.

are you implying that this comedy is off topic ? adds nothing to the serious plot??

Nope … I meant exactly what I said … “drops of comedy with a dose of exaggeration” …

When Hino puts Kaname saying >> “What kind of punishment do the little piggy and lamb want …” yes I was laughing and she did it to lighten up or allocate the gravity and the meaning of the word punishment.

When Kaname sent Hanabusa to count the number of chickpeas again I was laughing yes. Well maybe you took it as a very severe punishment cuz it suits to your case presenting Kaname as a “dictator”. (and no you are not using this word but this is the feeling that you’re giving me.)

Ofc there is a meaning and a relation to the story and the meaning is >>

or rather that.. he would appreciate it if she don’t take that risk right now? and that he gets worried ?

Totally agree. But this is far from threats and punishments.

And What aura was he is giving here again for disobeying his warnings?
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/vampire_knight/v12/c056/22.html

From the official volume:

Kaname: What kind of punishment do the little piggy and lamb want to receive for not being able to keep their promise to not let anyone in while I was out?

As you can see there is no “for disobeying his warnings?”. And yes the black aura was to show that he wasn’t at all happy.

As for the rest of your comments >>

it doesn’t look at least like a happy aura to me. but oh no~ it adds nothing to the plot, right ? because omg~ it’s comedy ! eeeks ! he’s actually making that face to make Yuuki laugh ! xD Yuuki is laughing too ! she doesn’t look tense at all LOL
oops it’s comedy ! so I’ll just imagine it didn’t happen, yup, comedy is off topic. *nods nods*

>> are leaving me untouched cuz you obviously misunderstood what I said previously which I’ll repeat I think we should be able to distinguish the drops of comedy with a dose of exaggeration from the serious parts.

I never said that the comical drops are unrelated with the story or off topic but to be able to give them the commensurate gravity.
For example in the bonus chapter of volume 15 Kaname “threatened” a human student who wanted to confess to Yuuki >>





Do we supposedly must believe that Kaname would have killed the student OR that Hino wanted to convey Kaname’s love and jealousy for Yuuki using a comical exaggerated way? The question is rhetorical …

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/vampire_knight/v08/c041/17.html
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/vampire_knight/v08/c041/19.html

so does his speech sounds romantic to you ?? reminding her she’s powerless, can do nothing and that he can force her ?? doesn’t this sounds like scolding for not bending to his well ??
but yeah, he let her have her way in the end, so we can just imagine he didn’t say it, right ?

Yes very romantic. It shows how much he loves her and his fear for her safety. And regardless of his power decides to let her do what she wanted to, in the end. This “contradiction” between his power/will and his submissiveness to her in the end shows respect and also his weakness towards Yuuki. This is what makes me love Kaname even more > an almighty being, being so powerless to Yuuki <3

And after the Touma incident
“it’s okay if I’m punished”
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/vampire_knight/v12/c060/30.html
But Yuukiii~ I thought it was okay for you to go out.. Why you say “Kaname punishing you” was even an option ??

She said it cuz she went out; OR because of the situation that caught up?
The powerful and able PB Yuuki to face the outside world was like a scaredy cat the moment she was in town alone, got hurt so easily and had put Hanabusa in a very dangerous position as well. And from what Touma said he hadn’t finished with his attack but Zero interference made him to retreat.

you’re his fiancée~!.. you two are supposed to be equal~ Why do you feel like his naughty child ?? really such a mystery ! xD

But she isn’t his equal; is she? Kaname is an ancestor (with whatever that means in terms of knowledge and power) and Yuuki is a baby regarding being a PB. So I think it would be idiotic if Hino presented Yuuki automatically being Kaname’s equal. So yes it was his role to protect her from dangers that she couldn’t even imagine. As Juliet pointed out, Kaname hasn’t only the role of her fiancé but also of her family … her parents sacrificed their lives leaving to Kaname the heavy responsibility of Yuuki’s protection. I suppose a parent knows better to whom will leave its child no?

Later on he refers to it as “a bitter medicine”. In short it means “ it was wrong of her to go out wandering acting reckless and now she learned the lesson“

There is a difference to “go out” and to “acting reckless” don’t you think? And what I’m saying is clear from the official translation >>

Kaname to Touma: That girl is much to reckless and naïve she needed to learn caution.

This incident with Touma proves that Kaname was right keeping her in the mansion … her own first decision, playing the reaper, and been so naïve confronting a PB IMO was placed from Hino to show exactly Yuuki’s immaturity once again plus that in her first walk faced an attack.
And it is as you said above paraphrasing it a little>>

But now it’s safe for Yuuki to go. b/c he is now fixing what he didn’t fix back then.

His is fixing or clearing the path for Yuuki thus he kept her in the mansion until she and he would be ready.

Next Kaname bit her twice after the Touma incident. Yup, sure I do understand that it’s sweet & pleasurable. And he might be comforting himself with it. But it’s punishment. And he scolded her in his kind sweet way reminding her like a child of how weak she is. And how much he was worried. So does he look so pleased that she went out and took that risk? The answer is no, absolutely not.

Well in your opinion he should have been happy about it?
As for his intense bites and his desperate words in that scene … I think that now that we know what his decision was afterwards, it is more understandable. The man was tasting the blood of the girl he loves maybe for the last time … so now that I review this scene makes more sense to me. And Yuuki had caught up his desperation >> such fatalistic words … why do you think there’s no alternative but to despair?

but why he didn’t teach her how to use her “pureblood powers” instead of keeping her in ?? hello ~? she’s a powerful pureblood ! the reason is simply b/c Hino chose not to, and preferred to keep Yuuki as weak as she is at that time.

Nope … she wasn’t a powerful PB … in terms of powers or awareness of being a vampire she was a toddler.

Yuuki refused her own nature so she was far from being a powerful PB. I didn’t see her to use any of her “powers” (which we do not know exactly) against Touma. And I haven’t seen any vampire been trained of how will use its powers. The powers are coming naturally as the vampire grows up thus and Yuuki’s parents had kept her in the basement. And Yuuki after her awakening despite that her body had grown up her mentality and her powers were stopped at the age of a toddler.

Yes Hino wanted Yuuki as a weakling, immature and naïve girl I suppose in order to show her maturation later on. She has said so herself in one of her side notes>>

Since Yuuki is the heroine I had her set from the beginning. But she still has many blanks to fill in, so I’m hoping (like an indulgent parent) that by filling those blanks she’ll mature. Kaname is filled as if there is no blanks left.

So I guess this was her point and this also answers about their equality which except from the obvious and logical difference in knowledge, experiences etc for me the equality issue concerns mostly their difference in terms of Pureblood-ness.

You know what’s the problem in their relationship ? in short few words ? they are not equal. Hino made Yuuki voice it clearly many times just before Kaname left her after spending a whole year :
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/vampire_knight/v13/c066/10.html
“nothing is going to happen until I become his equal”

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/vampire_knight/v13/c066/12.html
“equals.. huh”

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/vampire_knight/v13/c066/14.html

"I’m still so far, I can’t even think of saying we’re equal”

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/vampire_knight/v13/c066/15.html.

What you have not included though is the beginning of Yuuki’s narration >>

For ten years I never thought that we could be equal.

Why; she felt that way? What is the meaning that Yuuki gives to that word “equal”? Isn’t because she thought herself as a human unfit of being his mate?>>

Yuuki: She is beautiful … and she’s the same as Kaname. A Pureblood. A woman from Kaname’s world … I knew he was beyond my reach … I knew it but…
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2143-42/vampire-knight/chapter-25.html
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2143-43/vampire-knight/chapter-25.html

For ten years she knew (and was trying to convince herself) that Kaname was out of her reach thus and >>

I could only admire him from afar. I kept telling myself that was enough.

So wasn’t her problem about equality laid on how she was seeing herself as an inferior human? Well these feelings cannot change over a night. I find it logical that Hino didn’t present Yuuki automatically as a PB as if never interposed the 10 years of human breeding. >>

Then suddenly I was told that everything I truly wanted was always mine from the start … I cannot forget that distance stained into my mind.

Even though that in her mind knew that she is the same as Kaname i.e. a PB, however emotionally and physically wasn’t exactly there thus and as you said her difficulties to address to Kaname simply as Kaname without the honorific “sama” oniisama” or “sempai” was an indication.

Furthermore what I’m trying to convey here is also depicted in another way by Hino >>

At first, when Yuuki decided to embrace her true nature (something that led to bite Kaname for the first time after her awakening-bite) she presents Yuuki’s vampire nature as a toddler >>
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2179-14/vampire-knight/chapter-51.html

>> closely to the age that she was turned into a human and her breeding as a PB vampire was stopped abruptly.

But later on when Yuuki has these thoughts about equality and her desires to “eat all of him” (Kaname) Hino depicts Yuuki’s vampire nature as an adult >>
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/vampire_knight/v13/c066/13.html

Which means; that now her vampire-self has reached her true age something that creates more difficulties to suppress her desires >>

I’m still so far I cannot think of saying that we are equal but the vampire inside me doesn’t care. This desire is pure it cannot be hidden *b*******

Thus and she “apologising” to Kaname when he implied that their relationship didn’t advance on a more intimate level>>

Kaname: I didn’t do anything else
Yuuki: I’m sorry … It’s because I have used all my might for my own things

The “things” that Yuuki means, is her problems to adjust into her true nature but for these issues there wasn’t something more that Kaname could have done.

And the next page she talked like “ I was allowed to see…” “he’s telling me I can change..” and I’m sorry but I understand it as “you may change now, Yuuki. You have my permission”

She views herself as lower. And she views him as her superior.
that what got on my nervous during their whole time together in the mansion

She views herself as lower due to her human past and not because Kaname was overprotective with her or because she knew how much more powerful he is from her. Her problem to bite him and take what she desired with her own fangs made her to view herself as a child in front of Kaname >>

I guess I must seem like a child to you.
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/vampire_knight/v13/c066/22.html

Again she’s centralising the problem to her inability to view herself completely as a vampire or at least that thus far she didn’t show to Kaname that she matured.
Do you want to tell me that his protectiveness and pampering allowed Yuuki to drag her adjustment more? Yes maybe … but I think that due to certain conditions Kaname didn’t have plenty of choices. Not to mention that everybody treats Yuuki that way … Hanabusa, Cross and Zero as well.
I don’t know why you make it sound so bad what Yuuki thought of what Kaname was telling her with his actions. I suppose if he was more forceful towards her in order to make her grow faster he would have been again accused for being insensitive … well if someone wants to find something to accuse someone there is no help in it.

Although it is frustrating some times and Yuuki’s immaturity and stupidity many times got to my nerves as well but we are talking about a shoujo here so some traits are inevitably I suppose, plus Hino’s intention to show Yuuki’s maturation step by step.

She was denying herself, starving and Kaname was away most of the time. so like always, she’ll drink his blood and she’ll be alright
She looks like that like 24/7 (?? )

I think that you are overlooking some elements and jumping a few months there from Yuuki’s steps.

She was denying using her fangs and she was in that “mad” state for months … pay attention to the first panels which are showing the change of seasons >>
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/vampire_knight/v11/c050/27.html

It’s been six months since we’ve started living here

>> the trees have their leafs on and in the chapter where Yuuki bites Kaname for the first time since they started to live together the trees have no leafs again.
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/vampire_knight/v11/c051/11.html

So it took her almost one year to bring herself and use her own fangs and you’re telling me that she was in a position to stand on her own feet as a PB? Haha …

Yet she felt the need to go out behind his back from time to time, and felt the need to do something regardless of her agreeing to Kaname’s logic for keeping her in for her safety. Why ? it’s such a mystery ! xD

Maybe it is a mystery to you but not for me … did anyone say that the situation that she was living in was normal? Did anyone said that she was totally satisfied that she should live in an isolated mansion? Was Kaname happy for these conditions? You said above that he was frequently absent and busy … I suppose he wasn’t partying at that time leaving Yuuki locked up huh? He himself as well was moving in secrecy!

*sigh* I know darling. And I know he’s kind to her. and I know he wants her free and happy.
I said it in pseudo-dilemma thing and you took it as pure sarcasm.

The examples that I’ve brought previously wasn’t only to show that Kaname is kind to her but to show that this isolation for a year was a solution which was for a set period of time from the START and that was necessary for that CERTAIN period of time. No one was happy about it.

And Yup, Yuuki agreed.*nods nods* the problem is that Hino made her accept it. And to be exact, Yuuki cooperates with this temporarily situation but not actually happy about it. if she felt happy about it, she’ll show the usual smile while saying it. And will not grip the desk like that. Look closely
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2178-36/vampire-knight/chapter-50.html

so in short, Yuuki became obedient ! Kaname says Yuuki is obedient !! LOL !
"the you that listened to me obediently"
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/vampire_knight/v13/c065/27.html

b/c a good wife obeys her husband *adjusts grandma’s glasses* umm which century we live in again ? and I thought we went past this. Hmm..

*thud* … Yuuki’s ability to comprehend the situation and accept this temporarily solution making her obedient??? For me making her a logic being and not a brat who would make a fuss about something that it couldn’t be differently.
Is totally different to understand of why you should be in secrecy with being happy about not to be able to contact with your friends or with beloved persons, or am I wrong?

Your example to prove that Yuuki is obedient like a woman from another era cuz Kaname said that she obediently listen to what he had to tell her about his past sorry but is off base. You are comparing two different things here.

And bottom line a woman who knows what she is doing and for what she is doing it has no pseudo-feministic complexities thus and her acceptance is not called obedience. I hardly can believe that Hino wanted to portrait her heroine as a submissive, scared and without personality housewife. Childish; yes … immature; yes … naïve; yes but certainly not obedient out of inferiority as a woman towards a man.

Over protective, possessive, controlling are the words I meant.

But “abusive ??” such a strong and untruthful word for the situation, and most of all, I don’t recall saying that word or mean it.

I’m glad that you are clearing this up cuz the way you phrased it “locking women in” sounds like an abuse.
For a real confident and profoundly liberal woman the protectiveness and possessiveness of her man are not threaten her independency but are perceived as a flattery cuz she knows to put the limits or voicing her own opinion when and IF its needed. And as I said previously for me Yuuki had voiced her opposition when she really had one … as a human and as a vampire. And as Kaname said … he doesn’t want Yuuki to change or be a still-doll!

That type of locking is never an abuse. If your parents grounded you for sometime in the house, should I sue them for abuse and ill treatment ? nope. Absolutely not.

But Shizuka's type of locking is without a doubt abusive.

“Threats ?” yes, in his kind gentle way.

“Isolation ?” yes, this can be true. If it’s that dangerous for her to go out, why not bring people in to spend some time with her ??

When a parent restrain a child in, is doing it as a punishment … Yuuki wasn’t grounded … *sigh* … both of them were in secrecy … Kaname was making his moves in secret and Yuuki was kept inside because her EXISTENCE was still a SECRET and because the place that they were in should be a SECRET as well. If she accepted visits then their location would have been jeopardized.

And threats? Please provide the scan where Kaname threatens her … and then you are claiming that you didn’t mean abuse! Yeah right …

And from what I’ve seen.. After a whole year, she’s still as weak as ever.

After a whole year, when she tried to take her role as a kuran princess after Ouri’s death in the party Kaname simply sent her home like a child. And she simply obeyed, even though she didn’t like it. Yup, she’s obedient.
Kaname: “that’s my job, so you don’t have to take part of this Yuuki” why are you deciding for her ?? remember ? she's a Kuran too !

Much like preparing her as Kuran princess really. b/c at that time Shes a kuran princess for show only. After a whole year from the lack of the experience of the outside world , she’s still clueless and he treats her as such. Keeping secrets away from her. She will know his secrets eventually, only when he allows it . and when is that ? my guess when it’s too late for her to fix anything. he seems well prepared about her knowing his secrets. So In the end he want to have it his way.
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/vampire_knight/v13/c065/27.html

Yes … and after all that she took her Artemis and played the reaper and got hurt. Oh yes Kaname should have left Yuuki investigate Ouri’s death sure! I see your point.
However Yuuki herself said that she doesn’t know much about the vampires’ world and that she should study more. So again despite her reluctance she realises her lack of knowledge and awareness.
But the lack of experience and knowledge isn’t something that can be gained only via books or over a night or a year. Thus and Kaname tried to “teach” her through his blood … letting her see and feel.
Furthermore as Juliet mentioned he feed her with gallons with his blood boosting her powers. So what exactly different or more he should have done that he didn’t?

When I said after a year I had in mind the way Yuuki handled things after Kaname’s disappearance when she had to stand on her own feet. Then it showed that Yuuki had grown up. She knew what was the treaty that Kaname had signed with the hunters, she took the role as a Kuran PB, she re-opened the NC, she summoned the nobles and took their cooperation, she handled Sara and her schemes etc. In fact Yuuki has surprised me very pleasant in the recent chapters and note that I wasn’t fond of her and this is an understatement lol.

Hell, And I thought after the lovey dovey couple got together and moved to the mansion, they’ll live a happy honeymoon and I’ll see another version of Haruka and Juri. I’ll see Kaname laugh, Yuuki pampering him, playing fun games, pocking fun at everyone, practicing her pureblood powers, trying to cook something and fails. Discussing some fun info about the other purebloods or memories at the Academy.

But Instead, Hino gave me a gloomy, dull, angisty Yuuki who rarely smiles. yet as cluless as before. Spaced out, bored, doing boring stuff. and starving. where was that charming, courageous, outgoing, fun Yuuki at the Academy ?? dead without a trace !

and Kaname, even being with his one and only love, he rarely smiles, his face as blank as before, still have angst and sadness. those specific chapters regardless of the few sugar coated fluff really gave me a heavy unpleasant feelings + boredom that made me drop the manga a year.

Well then probably you should take another look on the genre of the specific manga. If you expected all that then you are reading the wrong story.

And in what I disagree completely is with how you are describing the human Yuuki. For me, back then she was an eyesore. More active yes … but her interferences rather were stupid, naïve and troublesome than constructive. More charming no no! Ignorance is bliss but isn’t real. And certainly her fake smiles (at least during the year at the academy) don’t show to me a happy person. In short she wasn’t real.

Here I see a very interesting contrast from Hino. The human Yuuki who seemed more strong and confident from outside, inside was ready to collapse. And the gloomy and fragile Yuuki from the outside during her period in the mansion was building gradually a solid character from inside. The results of this year have started to show and I’m expecting to be shown more from now on.

Another contrast that I’m expecting to see … the strong and almighty Kaname in terms of powers being the weakling one emotionally, who needs Yuuki’s strength now. << This is what will bring balance in their relationship. Thus I do not agree that their previous relationship was unhealthy (where are the signs of damage?) but unbalanced. However again under the conditions that Hino had demonstrated I found this unbalance natural, logical and justified.

However what gave me hope, was Yuuki deciding finally to call him just Kaname without the honorifics.
and her "wanting to start over"

so why Yuuki want to start over if everything all along was alright ?? and what’s the significant sign of her deciding finally to call him Kaname without the "sama" or "senpai" ??

I agree …
Both of them have to change but I think the key to that change is Yuuki. Yuuki is the one who has to show to Kaname that she matured. She showed that she was ready but when she was ready to start over advancing their relationship Kaname left.

I also agree that Kaname had decided things for her thus far and even if I found it justified till now, considering his multiple roles and Yuuki’s situation, however this cannot continuous forever. I see Aido-dono’s words to Yuuki as a foreshadowing>>

There is no one but you … such as you, can you really stop Kaname from now on?

Yuuki has to make her own decisions and I think that this is the way that Hino wants to show that Yuuki can stand as equal to Kaname not in words but in actions. I do not think that Yuuki can afford to fail in this role cuz she has to prove herself as the heroine in this story who will make the difference.

Now I’m looking forward to ch81 to see how the Kaname/Yuuki conversation will be. if what she actually said “this will not happen again” was true. Well, glad you realized what went wrong at the situation you’re in, Yuuki !

b/c even at ch 80 she was willing to simply go back with Kaname if he was actually came to her back. Ahh and what about the night class you re-opened, Sara and the day class, Yuuki ? nah, they can go to hell, I want my Kaname !


Much like a mature princess really. She’s still a weakling, dependent and a crybaby to me. You might say it’s b/c “the blinding love” ? well it’s not an excuse if she really wanted to practice what she preach and to achieve what she left the mansion for.

From my POV nothing went wrong in chapter 80. In fact this was what I wanted and expected to see from an in love woman who had to see her man six months. She carried away yes for a few moments … but isn’t natural? She showed instinctively her emotions stripped from logic but this doesn’t make her weakling but simply in love. However despite that this reaction doesn’t degrade Yuuki in my eyes, I would find it moronic if she wouldn’t have snapped from the pink bubble cuz the situation is far from being pink.

Also Yuuki had showed previously as well her irritation from Kaname’s doings and sayings when she decided to “play his game” but synchronously expressed her frustration by saying that she’ll give to him a few slaps *love to see that lol*. So I’m totally satisfied cuz she expressed her love but I also agree that we need to see a different Yuuki … strong emotionally and determined to face Kaname in an equal level < this is a needed step in order to move forward even if that means that she’ll oppose him.

However since Kaname knows her so much I’m very curious to see what Yuuki had in mind when she said that she knows his weakness and if Kaname will be surprised from her reaction. ^^

Admirable ? *blinks* umm well, sorry darling not everyone admires your fav character ^^; yet I don’t dislike all what he is either.

Imagine if you disliked him!
Ahem … I didn’t say that you should admire Kaname overall but cuz of his abnegation.


When someone shows total abnegation it should be admirable especially from someone like you who tries to show a more neutral POV since as you claim do not dislike the guy despite being Zero’s fan.

“worn out” ? hmm.. I'm sorry if that’s what you feel about the issue. *shrugs* we can stop here

Yes … it is a worn out subject and overused from Kaname’s haters in the past. But since the development has proven Kaname’s good intentions not only by words but also by actions and were shut down in flames all the accusations I find this topic not only worn out but outdated as well.

I wasn’t the one who brought it up and frankly I didn’t realize how this issue arose. If you do not continue it I have no intention to go on either *darling*

From Nina:

Also Yuuki had showed previously as well her irritation from Kaname’s doings and sayings when she decided to “play his game” but synchronously expressed her frustration by saying that she’ll give to him a few slaps *love to see that lol*. So I’m totally satisfied cuz she expressed her love but I also agree that we need to see a different Yuuki … strong emotionally and determined to face Kaname in an equal level < this is a needed step in order to move forward even if that means that she’ll oppose him.

I want to see the slapping action too !

A very angry Yuuki asking for the answers Kaname is denying for her sake . A mirror image of the middle part of the first arc .


For me , its very important for Yuuki to consider herself an equal to whoever guy she ends with . She would never be equal in age ( I see coming the 10,000 years old difference great - grand father jokes . Or that Zero is in reality some years younger than Yuuki's real age - her " little brother " jokes . ) . Nor intellect .( We know both guys are very intelligent and smart guys almost all the time . There is a ton of jokes about Yuuki's bad grades , except for PE .) Nor personality wise . But Yuuki needs for herself to discover she could be worthy of the man she chosen . A path Yuuki is starting to take in recent chapters .

In the case of Yume , I had see some people asking why the second arc chapters had not shown a very happy honeymooners couple . This is because even if I would had liked to see a very clumsy Yuuki burning breakfast toast and Kaname eating as nothing happened and then a sexy action at the table scenes ; this would had change the whole plot . Meaning the Love Triangle was resolved .

But if the story wanted to prolong the LT ; Hino needed to create a crisis in Yuuki and Kaname's relationship . The unequalty issue is part of that equation . It's very important for Yuuki to show she is now a more mature and strong person . Who can express her true feelings / ideas to others . Who is not afraid to confront others in equal terms . To know when to ask from help from friends . And to teach the ones she loved to depend on her as she depend on them . Basically to be treated as an equal and Yuuki to consider herself as an equal as well .

A crisis in Yume relationship doesn't mean this is the end for them . If both end together , they need to learn a lot about each other . Including Yuuki and Kaname at last consider themselves deserving of each other on equal terms .

Of course in the case of Zeki ending ; there has to be a similar equalty and trust treatment . But here are some more important and different issues to resolve as couple . Examples : the lost of humanity / life span issues. The hate of Zero for vampires in general .

One of Kaname's sons?? Now I'm really confused. But I guess there are some things we never understand.