The ancestor theories

First topic message reminder :

What are your theories about Kaname's ancestor past? Is he running out of guilts about something?

juliet wrote:

There is something about Rido that we still miss … what he did to be ostracized from the clan!??? From his puzzler wording can we assume that he knows what drove Kaname into despair and slumber? … my gut feeling is that Rido was involved in the incident that drove Kaname in despair (probably the loss of his wife) and that was the reason to be erased from the family. Everything ties … the core of his torture towards Kaname revolves around his contradictions/fears which concerns his love interest viz Yuuki … the reason of his banishment is still unknown, despite the fact that his role supposedly is over. So I think it make sense, the reason to be a secret is cuz it’s related with another secret >> Kaname’s grief>>loss>>identity of his wife.
Also note this … Rido was Shizuka’s fiancé >> connection with Hiou’s clan … an engagement probably for political reasons which right now we don’t know the implications but could be the missing piece of why Kaname killed also the head of the Hiou’s clan after Hanadagi? Also … Rido became a mad man … could his mother was a female from Hiou’s family who have heredity in madness? << This could also explain why Rido was engaged with Shizuka and not with Juri as firstborn <<< Shizuka could was his half sister thus and the engagement.

This is a very good remark there.

this is a strange theory.

I thought the reason Rido was banished and removed from the Kuran family was because of what he did to baby Kaname?

http://www.mangareader.net/104-2173-24/vampire-knight/chapter-47.html
^ the "man" Kaname refers there is Rido.

before Rido killed the baby, he was still part of the family as shown in chapter 62.

but after Rido killed the baby, he was placed under the surveillance of the council after that and so is Juri (when she was pregnant with yuki -check special chapter when she attacks kaien, she says she had to escape her watchers to get out)
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2161-31/vampire-knight/chapter-35.html

If the only incident shown to have caused chaos in the family was Rido killing the baby, then that's the reason he was banished from the family.

And if Rido is really banished from the past, the past has to be defined WHAT generation Rido was banished, but like I said he was probably banished in juri and haruka's generation since before that he was behaving well and there was no reason to banish him then until he killed the baby

-About Rido; he resurrects the ancestor and kills baby Kaname- wanting to become the strongest of all since he had planted to take the ancestor’s powers. The ancestor was kept in the basement of the house so that means that Yuuri and Haruka, also new the existence of the ancestor and not only that but they named their son after the ancestor.

Which brings me here in the realization that “Kaname” was a dear person in the family…yes, it should be, in order for Yuuri and Haruka to name their baby after the ancestor, then Kaname should be both loved and honored in his family.

interesting. this might be the reason why Rido knows so much about the ancestor. If his tomb was inside the kuran mansion for tons of centuries and Rido was the first born of the Kurans then he had a lot of time to dig up ancestor's past. It was said a pureblood's true nature is to greed over power and lust, Rido was also driven mad (i don't know why perhaps they just have that tendency) because of power as we see he did not hesitate to kill a baby to resurrect ancestor.

But then, he returns to take princess Yuuki – his main excuse is his love for Yuuri that turned down his initial feelings…

The fact that he returns shows that no matter how much of a secret Yuuri and Haruka might have wanted to keep Yuuki as a secret, keeping her in the basement, that much they failed.

Again from vol.8 stated by Yuuki while she is in Kaname’s arm during Rido’s and Haruka’s fight;

Yuuki: “For a while now, I have been having scary dreams. Someone with one red eye and one blue eye stares at me…He’s always staring me.
Some panels after;
Rido: I came to get your princess that you’ve been hiding so carefully…
Some panels after;
Kaname: I will prepare a place where you won’t have to live in fear…

I think this might support that theorized notion that Yuki has special abilities to see through memories, break forget spells, etc etc. that's how she was able to see Rido.
But I don't buy this, I think there's something more, Yuki also has strange unexplained episodes where she's not aware of what she's doing so probability there's more to this powers than whats shown

But you are right about one point, if Yuuki's importance to the script was a of a really great importance such as the the ex-Queen of vampires, the key to co-existence, the one person that should definetely being protected while vulnerable in order to achieve great things in the future time, that would make her revelation to the other vampires one way road for Kaname, and that would also justify totally his overprotection as her parents overprotection. It's just a theory but if Hino wanted to go that far with her plot, she has made the background story to achieve that.

If kaname is trying to achieve this and its his sole objective in the long run then he also understands that he's putting her at risk, which i think is what his contradictions are about as you have said. I think Kaname was debating greatly between letting Yuki go and risking another loved one's death
or keeping her locked and safe forever until his plans were finished (his last words to her were, "take care of the house while I'm gone" and "If you're good then I'll be back to fulfill your wishes", maybe he was expecting that she will stay home and unharmed)
at which the ultimate is that he lets her go to explore and be exposed to all the danger

Watch how he apologises to Yuuki about "so much weakness", saying that this something from the far past. He feels responsible. But why? and how is that connected to Yuuki's existence at the present time? What does he mean? Can we interpret his words now?

and you are also forgetting that ever since Yuki was human, Yuki always observed that whenever Kaname looks at her, she comments that he looks very sad or lonely. And notice there that Kaname also temporarily falls into a lapse where Yuki's next question surprises him.
Kaname, I think is guilty for some of the things he had started, what those things are I can only guess, but I think it has to do with vampires (ofc lol) And he's sad because Yuki had to experience this...but I don't think that's all there's to it. He knows something about her that he's not fully revealing yet and I think will come in due time

---

EDIT

About Rido …

I thought that he might be from a not Kuran mother based on these hints …

1. On the fact that as a firstborn he probably had the “right” to be the fiancé of Juri … furthermore from Juri’s wording we can see that her grandfather chose Haruka to escort her not Rido, despite the fact that at that time Juri didn’t have any romantic interest for Haruka. Seems like the grandfather wanted to give a little push into their relationship? Maybe not … maybe he did it only out of fear and to protect Juri, but the fact remains … he didn’t choose Rido for that assignment … so his preference to Haruka over Rido is a given and prior the creation of the senate.

2. The madness and Kaname’s miscalculation … If Kaname allowed or didn’t manage to avoid a match between his son and a female PB from the Hiou family, which have heredity in madness, then his guilt for Rido’s existence have a sense.

3. The different coloured eyes as you said … it might be an indication that Rido’s parents weren’t both of them Kurans … the Hiou family has bright colours so the one blue eye can be explained.

4. The engagement with Shizuka … if they were half brother and sister then again is possible to be engaged for that reason, since the intermarriage between siblings is something common for the PBs.

5. Why the grandfather preferred Haruka instead of Rido who was also the first born? <<< This also could be a reason of why Rido hated the ancestor/grandfather>>> cuz he didn’t allow him to engage with Juri.

this makes sense.

Rido's engagement with Shizuka was half serious, I think. Even as they were engaged, Shizuka was imprisoned in a cell and being fed with human prisoners.

Rido loved Juri but never showed an indication. Eventually Juri and Haruka got together and had a first baby, Kaname. I think this is enough to drive him mad, which showed after Juri gave him the baby and he decided to use him as offering.

about Juri and Haruka going to a highschool together. i think it was the grandfather who set this up... its possible as you said, but it also coincides with Juri's wishes to go to a human highschool, and it was grandfather who told Haruka must come along with her. So yes there was a deliberate setup. WHY not Rido, well I think its because he's the eldest and he should stay home? hm we dont know if Rido's engagement with Shizuka was arranged or forced, or did it came before the human highschool or not, if it came before the human highschool then that makes sense that their grandfather was playing matchmaker so juri and haruka finally get together and make babies, since rido would already be engaged to hio

Rido having a Hio mother- possible, but im not really leaning towards this for now. the different colored eyes could make sense, however Rido also has curly hair that looks like Kaname's, if he came from a hio mother then that means a previous member of the Kuran clan also mated with a Hio to produce him and there's no evidence of that

sweetsolace wrote: I thought the reason Rido was banished and removed from the Kuran family was because of what he did to baby Kaname?

http://www.mangareader.net/104-2173-24/vampire-knight/chapter-47.html
^ the "man" Kaname refers there is Rido.

before Rido killed the baby, he was still part of the family as shown in chapter 62.

In the above scan Kaname says … “ He was a man that was under the council’s surveillance … and who had in the past been banished from our family tree”

From these words I understand that he was banished prior he’ll be under the senate’s surveillance …

He had banished in the past for an unknown reason and after he killed baby Kaname the senate supposedly should restrain him but no … he returned to attack to Yuuki.

At least this is how I understood the row of the events.

EDIT:

Ah! sorry ... I re-read your previous post … Now I get what your point is about Rido’s reason to be banished lol. Yes he had visited the Kuran’s mansion when the baby Kaname was born … so maybe you’re right after all and he ostracized from the family because of what he did to the baby Kaname and synchronously he had been put under the senate’s surveillance. Makes sense … XD

sweetsolace wrote: WHY not Rido, well I think its because he's the eldest and he should stay home? hm we dont know if Rido's engagement with Shizuka was arranged or forced, or did it came before the human highschool or not, if it came before the human highschool then that makes sense that their grandfather was playing matchmaker so juri and haruka finally get together and make babies, since rido would already be engaged to hio

I think there is the possibility that Rido’s engagement with Shizuka came after the creation of the senate viz after the high school. As you also said this engagement is obvious that it wasn’t out of love. Shizuka was also a prisoner under the senate that was trying to use the power of the PBs … so maybe the engagement was also for political reasons along with their affinity by blood. If I’m not mistaken the Hiou family was pro-senate … so it might be a senate’s settlement.

Rido having a Hio mother- possible, but am not really leaning towards this for now. the different colored eyes could make sense, however Rido also has curly hair that looks like Kaname's, if he came from a hio mother then that means a previous member of the Kuran clan also mated with a Hio to produce him and there's no evidence of that

I’m not sure what you mean here??? If Rido has similar hair with Kaname then he could have inherited from the Kurans … the one blue eye from the Hiou’s … so where is the inaccuracy? Seems like something I miss here haha.

nina wrote:
I think there is the possibility that Rido’s engagement with Shizuka came after the creation of the senate viz after the high school. As you also said this engagement is obvious that it wasn’t out of love. Shizuka was also a prisoner under the senate that was trying to use the power of the PBs … so maybe the engagement was also for political reasons along with their affinity by blood. If I’m not mistaken the Hiou family was pro-senate … so it might be a senate’s settlement.

I also believe it was for political reasons but here another question comes in, WHAT KIND of political reason? a political reason has a benefit either towards the family or to the person if its done right? so under what condition did Rido agreed to be engaged to Shizuka you think?
I don't know about Hio being pro faction though, I only know Shiki and Ichijou.

I’m not sure what you mean here??? If Rido has similar hair with Kaname then he could have inherited from the Kurans … the one blue eye from the Hiou’s … so where is the inaccuracy? Seems like something I miss here haha.

I meant that if Rido is the son of a Kuran and a Hio, then that means a previous Kuran mated with a Hio to produce him, and there's no evidence/record of that in the story. I agree though that he could've inherited the different eyes from Hio and the curly hair from the Kurans, maybe

I think Rido's madness is founded and doesn't have to be attributed to some inheritance, he had raised Juri and Haruka all his life, fell in love with juri but couldn't say it to her, and watch as Juri and Haruka got together and have a child. I think it reached his head.

as for rido's different colored eyes , its either inherited or acquired. so he couldve gotten it along his bloodline like whats suggested, or in his present time
maybe a rose thorn pricked his eyes when he was young and it changed colors.

What do you think about Kaname's past??

His first ever past, was when he was the first Kuran. How did he start the clan (i.e.with whom?)
Did the first ever PB he loved, Yuki or someone else? If you think it was someone else, then, do you think that they were a Kuran as well, or from a different clan?? So, does that mean that they have another clans blood running through them??


My thoughts;

I think that Yuki wasn't the first lover he had. There is much proof of that. I think that the Kuran clan does actually have a hint of another clans blood running through them. But which, I cannot decide. For they're many other clans we have not heard about yet.
Kaname was actually a doctor in the past. (Im pretty sure) Just putting it out there.
Then when Kaname gets put into a slumber, and woken up by Rido, he obviously knows that Rido is now his master. That's probably when he started playing chess LOL



I have more thoughts, but I will post them whenever.
But I would love to hear you opinions!

its just impossible to predict because hino is so clever,she always surprises.

lucykaede wrote:its just impossible to predict because hino is so clever,she always surprises.

Yeah, she makes such great stories. I do wonder what suprise she'll hae hidden behind him

VampireKnight#1 wrote:

lucykaede wrote:its just impossible to predict because hino is so clever,she always surprises.

Yeah, she makes such great stories. I do wonder what suprise she'll hae hidden behind him

maybe a surprise in which yuuki and kaname are zero's past parents.ha ha ha ha what a nightmare,isn't it??

I think Kaname's just continuing her wish to exterminate all the purebloods... I do have a theory though, that Seiren might be related to the Hooded Woman somehow.... since we know absolutely nothing about her. She could even be a direct descendent of her... I thought they looked just a little bit alike. Where has Seiren been lately anyways?

Shoujo-Zo18 wrote:I think Kaname's just continuing her wish to exterminate all the purebloods... I do have a theory though, that Seiren might be related to the Hooded Woman somehow.... since we know absolutely nothing about her. She could even be a direct descendent of her... I thought they looked just a little bit alike. Where has Seiren been lately anyways?

hey nice theory and i do think that seiren may have some hidden secrets,she is the coolest character but too sad she is not given due impetus she needs rather there is always ruka and rima besides main trio.

the hooded woman is juri kuran yuki mum.

Yuki_kuran12345 wrote:the hooded woman is juri kuran yuki mum.

what??????????????????????

you can't be serious.kaname was in love with her mother,no way thats too gross.i don't think this theory fits any where.hw may be yuuki but she so can't be juuri plus it is suspected that kaname was juuri's grandfather so how can she be hooded woman??

i have a theory in my mind after reading other people theories,that after hooded woman's death and protecting humans he found a girl and married her and had kids.then his kids had juuri,haruka and rido.kaname's kids died for some reason and kaname and his wife brought up haruka,rido and juuri.then something happened to his wife and he went to slumber.after rido awakened kaname his wife again born in form of yuuki and he found it but yuuki doesn't know this.plus kaname and yuuki have some connection that caused twins curse in hunters.now he is protecting yuuki from the thing that caused her death in past leading to kaname's death.


ah you can call me creepy if you found my theory laughable.

lucykaede wrote:

VampireKnight#1 wrote:

lucykaede wrote:its just impossible to predict because hino is so clever,she always surprises.

Yeah, she makes such great stories. I do wonder what suprise she'll hae hidden behind him

maybe a surprise in which yuuki and kaname are zero's past parents.ha ha ha ha what a nightmare,isn't it??

Hahahahahahahahaha

lucykaede wrote:

Yuki_kuran12345 wrote:the hooded woman is juri kuran yuki mum.

what??????????????????????

you can't be serious.kaname was in love with her mother,no way thats too gross.i don't think this theory fits any where.hw may be yuuki but she so can't be juuri plus it is suspected that kaname was juuri's grandfather so how can she be hooded woman??

WTF! And he doesn't love the HW. NO WAY! But... Juri's dead. DEAD. But ya never know... Maybe, actually...

After Kaname had left his old village he met up with the HW, she let him stay with her. Kaname taken blood from humans when they were sleeping (probably to use it for himself or some other reason) And also drank the HW's blood, and, in return was to help her.

The HW was extremely important to him...He was in love with her. "I wonder what this feeling is...This person is very important to me.." The "feeling" was love.
Purebloods back then desired to turn humans into their own kind, into slaves. So as a result humans had diminished greatly. I wonder why the slaves were building a castle?

"The only way to stop more servants from being created is to destroy the source...Then we'll do something about the servants who have lost their masters...I don't relish destroying out kind after I've searched them out..I'm sorry I'm asking you to do such an unpleasant job..."

The HW wanted Kaname's help to kill them,even though she didn't like the idea. That was her "wish" ....To destroy the source....Purebloods themselves...

So Kaname is fulfilling her goals (which aren't evil) and putting an end to humans becoming slaves to Purebloods. All of which was The Hooded Womans desires.

SassyKnight wrote:After Kaname had left his old village he met up with the HW, she let him stay with her. Kaname taken blood from humans when they were sleeping (probably to use it for himself or some other reason) And also drank the HW's blood, and, in return was to help her.

The HW was extremely important to him...He was in love with her. "I wonder what this feeling is...This person is very important to me.." The "feeling" was love.
Purebloods back then desired to turn humans into their own kind, into slaves. So as a result humans had diminished greatly. I wonder why the slaves were building a castle?

"The only way to stop more servants from being created is to destroy the source...Then we'll do something about the servants who have lost their masters...I don't relish destroying out kind after I've searched them out..I'm sorry I'm asking you to do such an unpleasant job..."

The HW wanted Kaname's help to kill them,even though she didn't like the idea. That was her "wish" ....To destroy the source....Purebloods themselves...

So Kaname is fulfilling her goals (which aren't evil) and putting an end to humans becoming slaves to Purebloods. All of which was The Hooded Womans desires.

hmm..nice explanation but its too soon to tell because it is said that it was her wish and her is speculated as hooded woman BUT...things can turn out in diff way in hino's world.

Sorry to UP this topic after some months nobody posted in it, but I've found it yesterday and I was amazed by what I've read until now.

I'm also sorry to have spammed other topics with my hints and theories, but I was thrilled to have found a place where I could talk about them and I didn't think about searching the forum!

I'm really amazed and happy because we noticed the same things and we came to the same hypothesis, and to almost the same theories. As I'm a newbie (I "discovered" VK two months ago) the fact that some "pro" fans like you shared my same opinions, well, this means only one thing: that there is "something" we have found and that we are maybe following the right path(s) to Hino's truth!

Or maybe, that we all are sharing the same path to madness!!!! XD

I've only "few "things to add

I keep thinking about the multidimensional mirror theory and as you said the mirror is a leitmotiv in Hino's manga, and there are some hints... well. It could be. Because if we think about Kaname's past, we can suppose that AFTER HW:

- He was all alone. IF he was all alone, than the plot must develop in a way the whole story becomes possible. That is, time travel. Yuuki goes to the past and changes the current situation. Because we saw hints that a "past Yuuki" really could exist. The mirror, that appears obsessively everywhere (even in the ending of the first anime series) is not just a symbol but a door to the past. Cool.

- Kaname was NOT AT ALL alone, and this makes things more and more complicated.

I found here some hints that I hadn't noticed before, that are, the panels in which Yuuki tries to remember her past.

At first I thought that all the blood she sees was Juuri's own blood after casting the spell. Too much splatter, as her body should have exploded to make such a mess, but I didn't think about anything else. As for the bloody hand

http://www.mangarush.com/files/mangas/vampire-knight/33/7.jpg

the Italian translation is something like "It would be good if you become ALL MINE". That's why I thought about Rido's hand, and nothing else.

But the memory that would scare her the most, would have been Rido's eyes. She never saw her bloody hands, when he came for her. She was downstairs.

Still, what about "When we grow up, we can do it?"

This sentence seems connected to Yuuki's mumbling about becoming Kaname's lover. So we can suppose that "When we grow up, we can do it" can be read as "When we grow up, we can become lover".

WE. If this WE refers to some past "Yuuki", then this past Yuuki must have a sibling, or a friend that grows together with her, and they love each other.

Only a supposition, obviously.

Then, SOMETHING happens, a massacre that spread all that blood everywhere. There are some options:

- The person who wants to make Yuuki "ALL HIS" is Kaname. Kaname wants to make incest or brocest with her, and she doesn't want to. Kaname tries to force her. BUT I would exclude this, as when Yuuki regains her memories, she finds strange to be in love with her "brother", still she doesn't deny her love.

- The person who wants somebody else to be "ALL HERS" is Yuuki herself. This could make sense connected with all the "If-you-don't-devour-what-you-desire,-you-become-mad" dialogues she has with her vampire self. And we have the scene in which Kaname cries in despair upon the shattered mirror. After the meeting with Yuuki in his memories, we see other vampires beyond him talking about "the other side" who had already converged. That is, the other side had some important loss, but recovered soon, we must go and fight, please hurry. Kaname has TWO weapons in his hands, Artemis and Bloody Rose. Why two? One should suffice. So, he must have fought with somebody he didn't want to, and he must have killed somebody he didn't want to kill. Could this "somebody" be Yuuki-in-the-past? Could it be that "the other side" was led by Yuuki-itp in person? Then there are other two sub-options. a) Yuuki was on the "evil" side. That is, she wanted power to do something, and she tried to devour her own... brother? b) Yuuki was trying to stop the war. And she died to protect someone else. Someone else that had Bloody Rose in charge? Or did SHE have Bloody Rose in charge? This could give a sense to Kaname's "meaningless sacrifice" sentence.

- The person who wants YUUKI to be his/hers is a third person. Two sub-options: a) Rido, and this leads us to nowhere else than the current plot. b) Somebody else who wants to devour Yuuki-itp to gain her power.

And here is another doubt I've had since I read the truth about Yuuki's past.

Well, good ol' boy Rido wants power more than anything else. So he seizes the opportunity and kidnaps Jurika's baby. Wonderful. BUT he clearly says that if he sacrifices the baby to Kaname, he would gain even more power. This implies that he wants to devour the MOST powerful vampire, he can't content himself with just a little PB baby, even if Kuran. And we know that Kuran are probably the most powerful vampires.

Well, he can't do it. So our story goes on and we see poor little Yuuki imprisoned, while a whole lot of Kuran goes here and there without caring about Rido's schemes (he's obviously much less captive than it should be). So, Rido could simply go and have the one he chose from the menu: Juuri, Haruka, Kaname himself. He seemed to have longed for Kaname so much. But he mobilizes the senate and a whole army of vampires specifically for Yuuki. Why?

We can think: "Oh, well. She was the weakest of all, so it would have been easy to devour her without a strong rebellion". Still he had to fight the whole Kuran family WITH KANAME - that CAN'T kill him -to get HER. Eating one of them while fighting, and eating Yuuki, what could be the difference? Plus, he didn't want blood from weak babies, he showed this by sacrificing Yuuki's real brother. But when he sees Yuuki, he refers to her as "the most energetic" Kuran princess.

(WTF? The most energetic? Please give me a decent translation =_=)

Hino is very clever. Letting us see Yuuki kept secret after his brother's murder, she leads us connect the two facts. Still, Rido was captive, and there were no real reason to keep her secret to all vampire society. They could keep Kaname secret as well, if their true reason was "we must conceal ALL our babies or HE will come and eat them for breakfast!" But they made him go here and there under the same senate's surveillance. If you think about it for a bit, all this does not make sense. Yuuki is so well kept that even the memories of her in AH books have been erased. NOBODY MUST KNOW ABOUT HER. ESPECIALLY VAMPIRE SOCIETY. At first I thought this was because PB are manipulated and kept captive in some way by vampire's senate, so Jurika wished a best future for Yuuki. But Jurika are not kept captive, and the only one who seems to be manipulated (but still has some freedom) is Kaname.

And Shizuka, obviously.

And this is another BIG question. We see a whole lot of PB in VK. Still, Shizuka is the only one who lives in a golden cage. Why? Again, Hino is very clever. She makes Shizuka talk about "the destiny of all PB". So that we are led to think that PB are like some kind of gods, that vampire society keeps in a cage in turn so that they could maintain peace.

But Rido is not kept captive until killing Kaname jr. Nor Juuri, neither Haruka. Kaname is tutored and controlled AFTER his parents' death. But he's not kept in a golden cage. And he's still a boy, so tutoring him seems almost natural. Sara, too, is simply free to live where she wants, without taking part to social events. So is Isaya and the rest of Hiou's family.

Maybe Shizuka was kept under control simply because of her "madness". But she must have done something really serious to be kept captive, as was for Rido.

Do this "something" have "something" to do with Yuuki-in-the-past? I don't know.

Still, if there was a war between PB, the current PB families must have been the same that faced Kaname in that very time. So, here we have the survivors: the allies AND the enemies who yielded. I think that Kaname is now killing his ancient enemies, those who were ON THE OTHER SIDE that day? That is, maybe almost every PB. Maybe Yuuki-in-the-past tried to stop him, like now, and was killed.

And after all this, we must find a role for poor poor Zero, too

As the destiny of the THREE of them seems cyclic connected, Hino repeats this in some opening panels.

Kaname wants Zero to be the knight and shield of Yuuki, to be the most powerful weapon against ALL PB. But I don't think that he wanted him to stop killing with ol' boy Rido. This implies that all PB are a danger for Yuuki and the only way to protect her is making "something" in which Zero is the weapon, and then turning her to human again (?) so that nobody can "eat her into pieces":

http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/76/24

Maybe. There is also another big doubt.

Kaname freed Shizuka so that she could accomplish her revenge. But how could he know that she wouldn't simply have killed ALL Kiryuu family? In fact, she spares the twins. Well, Kiryuu's parents killed her lover, not the twins. Still, why transform one of them - the strongest - into a vampire? Simply to make his parents suffer?

I don't think so. I think Shizuka had a pact with Kaname, or had another parallel "plan". In which the Most Powerful Weapon would have been the plum in her cake. "I gained an interesting THING":

http://www.mangareader.net/104-2130-3/vampire-knight/chapter-20.html

and then

http://www.mangareader.net/104-2130-26/vampire-knight/chapter-20.html

what is "the one thing that ruined the destiny of all PB", that Shizuka was trying to destroy using the same "pieces" of Kaname (and - maybe - not knowing who Yuuki really is?). The senate? I don't know.

Well, this came out to be a LONG post as usual, so I will stop here.

Anyway, I really can't see the way Yuuki-chan is connected to Yuuki-in-the-past, or IF she's connected, because we see Juuri pregnant in the manga, so it can't be a matter of simple reincarnation (?).

Again, Hino was very clever. In the past arc, when the climax seemed to be arrived (Shizuka) the story went on towards the unexpected (Yuuki being a PB).

Here, we could have the climax in the furnace with HW. If HW was the real motive and hint about Kaname's past, we would have seen here the usual "final battle". But it was only another mirror. What will happen, what will turn out to be the most unexpectable?

I only hope it won't end with the two white roses (Yuuki and Kaname????????) above their coffins...

http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/81/3

We see Kaito, after greeting Zero in ch.86, thinking that he should overcome some BIG pain.

I really hope Hino's hints DON'T MEAN their DEATH




Thank you, if you had the patience to read all this post.

I think Rido could have some involvement with the time of great despair of Kaname . Maybe he was the one who killed the " Past Yuuki " Either if she was the past life of Yuuki or a time - traveled Yuuki .

It's very probable Rido already was alive for the time of Kaname's despair events . As they most probably happened after Juuri was born ( less than 3,000 years prior to actual events ) .

But for the present time Yuuki . Rido probably discovered a lot more about her than we know . The easiest to guess is that he discovered the full pureblood powers of Yuuki's . Meaning he knew Yuuki has the power to dispell any vampire spell . And he wanted that power for himself .

One thing I can imagine is Haruka , Juuri and Kaname discovering Yuuki's power to dispell at the time she was born ( or at least near that time ) . When Kaname turned himself to a baby after the baby Kaname incident . He made himself forget all his past life memories . But he started to remember about the time Yuuki was born . It could be because baby Yuuki's power has a passive component . She didn't need to activate it herself to dispell Kaname's memory spell .

No matter what , Rido continues to be a wild card . As he probably is alive . The blood stains at Kaname's coat from chapter 44 and the blood stain Yuuki saw at chapter 66 could both be Rido's remains . If he is alive . He know a lot of information the story is holding so far . Probably including the facts from the events that brought Kaname to his greatest despair in the past .

mariangie wrote:I think Rido could have some involvement with the time of great despair of Kaname . Maybe he was the one who killed the " Past Yuuki " Either if she was the past life of Yuuki or a time - traveled Yuuki .

Yes, this is highly possible.

As Kaname had been sleeping for 2000 years before Rido suddenly awoke him (am I correct? I remember to have read this amount of time but I can't find the exact panel, please tell me if I'm wrong).

And Juuri is 3000 years old when Rido comes to take Yuuki, as you say. So, as he was the eldest brother (too old for Juuri) he surely was there before Kaname's slumber. Juuri and Haruka would have been there, too. So they definitively were alive together with their great grandfather.

BUT I don't think Rido was the one who killed past Yuuki, because I doubt Kaname would have allowed him to live. He is killing pre-emptively ALL PB who could want Yuuki's power, so I find a bit strange that he let Rido alive. So, more probably he was involved in some conspiracy (together with his other family, the Hious? - I find totally credible that he could be related with them as you said - and this could also be the reason why he was not enough fitted for Juuri?).

Still, the fact that after Kaname's slumber he's free and happy, and that Jurika trust him so much to let him change the diapers of their own son, this is a bit strange. Maybe he was taken captive before and after Kaname disappearance he manipulated the senate so that he could be free. But Jurika would have definitely known his true nature. (?)

This is what makes me think that he was involved, but he was backstage and there were no true proof of his involvement until Kaname jr's death. But I may be wrong, obviously.

The true fact is that he WAITED and gained all the strength he could to eat the most powerful vampire. That, in the current time, obviously is not Kaname.

Thinking about this, I find more and more probable that past Yuuki was killed due to a conspiracy of evil PB that - maybe - she also tried to protect. Who knows?

mariangie wrote:
No matter what , Rido continues to be a wild card . As he probably is alive . The blood stains at Kaname's coat from chapter 44 and the blood stain Yuuki saw at chapter 66 could both be Rido's remains . If he is alive . He know a lot of information the story is holding so far . Probably including the facts from the events that brought Kaname to his greatest despair in the past.

Yes, he probably is "alive" or maybe - like HW - only some parts of him are alive. As Kaname keeps seeing him and talking with him. And he talks with him in the coffin room of the mansion, too (maybe because his blood was spilled in that very room). Will he try and speak with Yuuki there? I don't know. He never tried until now, while his remnants keep giving Kaname bad dreams. We shall see.

At first I found strange that Yuuki couldn't simply go and read some book about her family history. Well, they were kings once, so they must have something like family registers and tree. But the fact that involves past Yuuki must have been so bloody and so terrible that probably was cancelled from every book, as Rido was cancelled from Kuran's tree after Kaname jr's murder.

But now I can give a sense to Kaname's sudden decision to leave Yuuki and go slaughtering PB.

That is, he decides after the very moment he makes her see a (part) of the truth. Even Yuuki is starting to think it's only a part:

http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/73/25

I think that the fact that Yuuki was able to interfere with his memories is a hint that her powers are trying to awake. This can be a possible explanation about Kaname wanting to erase all PB, as he tells Ruka immediately after. Why not starting before?

Maybe he hoped that Yuuki's seal would endure or would never break. But clearly, her true powers are trying to come out, as we see from her wings.

And I think her powers must be absolutely scary.
She can break spell.
She can handle anti-vampire weapons without being hurt, so she's probably immune to them?
She can change the past.

OMG every single PB would KILL to have those powers and the senate would have kept her captive to take advantage of her.

This give some sense to what Kaname has done until now. Maybe he destroyed anti-vampire weapons because he knows that after Yuuki they would have become useless? Maybe he knows that their children would be absolutely immune to every kind of weapon, that's why he abandoned her?

Oh well, now I'm raving I stop here.



Edit: only a sudden thought. What about that bloody hand being of one of Yume's sons? - Well, there is no evidence of this anywhere. It's just something I thought right now, so please discard this.

Edit again: The fact that Rido was there is much more consistent if we notice that the only panel when we see simil-past-hooded-Yuuki he's the one who's talking to Kaname. And he seems to know Kaname so much that it's impossible he never knew him in person...

Theories and mysteries! My favorite theme!!!!

Duskola wrote: Sorry to UP this topic after some months nobody posted in it, but I've found it yesterday and I was amazed by what I've read until now.

I'm also sorry to have spammed other topics with my hints and theories, but I was thrilled to have found a place where I could talk about them and I didn't think about searching the forum!

Ah don’t worry… the topic of this thread remains a mystery in the story so is still active. And there are many other threads that it’s been discussed the same topic hahaha … can’t be helped lol.

I'm really amazed and happy because we noticed the same things and we came to the same hypothesis, and to almost the same theories. As I'm a newbie (I "discovered" VK two months ago) the fact that some "pro" fans like you shared my same opinions, well, this means only one thing: that there is "something" we have found and that we are maybe following the right path(s) to Hino's truth!

I’m happy too because a fresh look and a mind unaffected from all these speculations and point of views, like yours, at least has detect the same things. Now I do not know if we are following the path for the truth (or the path to nuthouse all together hahaha) but at the very least it shows that these things are there to wonder about.

About the mirrors:

If they are just a symbol to imply things or they will be used as a supernatural mechanism for example as time-gates, we shall see.

For the time being though and with the clues that we have I’m inclined more towards the first i.e. that at least the mirrors are there to connect things that “normally” are unconnected.
For example; in the scene with the Artemis. Yuuki’s presence there is connected with the mirror … she steps on a mirror that has no place in a battlefield to begin with. But the mechanism that Hino used to place Yuuki there isn’t the mirror but Kaname’s blood … Yuuki “traveled” in the past through his blood.
So could be that Hino has used the mirror in a symbolic way in order to imply later Yuuki’s relation with Kaname’s mourning over the shattered same mirror?

What I mean is that regardless what way Hino will use to solve the mystery of Kaname’s past at least the mirror creates an invisible thread connecting the two scenes with the difference that in the first with Artemis Yuuki is there, whereas in the second no … thus could the mirror hinting her “presence” or her involvement with Kaname’s grief? Moreover when the second scene comes as aftermath of Yuuki’s question to Kaname >>

Yuuki: My strong and beautiful Kaname… WHY would you want me?

Kaname: “WHY”… you ask…

So it isn’t only the mirror that could imply Yuuki’s involvement but also Yuuki’s question about HERSELF.

And we have another depiction with both of them like a bridal couple (?) as reflection in the broken mirror >>

Spoiler:

So for me the mirror the very least it is a symbol that connects Yuuki and Kaname in places and times that “normally” are unconnected.

That been said it doesn’t mean that the time travel is out of question of course. My problem with the travels in time in general, is that firstly are complicated and secondly can create many paradoxes.

Example: Let’s hypothecate that Yuuki is Kaname’s wife from the past, the woman with whom he started the Kuran clan.
IF Yuuki didn’t exist in the past BUT she came from the future and found Kaname in the past that would mean that the existence of the Kuran clan is at stake right now.

Because since Yuuki at this point hasn’t travel in the past YET, hasn’t find Kaname hence she hasn’t create a family with him … IF now in the present she won’t succeed to find the way to go back in time, the Kurans will be wiped out of the history … will never exist. Thus how Yuuki would have been born???

Another example: We see that Yuuki from the future influenced the past by naming the scythe Artemis. This incident happened; it is a fact, because our characters in the present knew the scythe as Artemis. However Yuuki traveled in the past and named the scythe only when she became a vampire and drank Kaname’s blood.
So what it would have happened IF Yuuki would never have been turned into her true nature i.e. she never would’ve had drank from Kaname??? Who would have named the scythe? Ain’t a paradox?

Thus my feeling about the scene with the premonition and the scythe is that Hino is playing with the “power” of fate here … maybe Kaname had tried or still is trying to change some things that were fated to happen (???) as f.e. to keep Yuuki always human, but as we saw he failed thus and his premonition of Yuuki the young vampire miss naming the scythe it was inevitable to happen hence and there is no paradox of how the scythe took the name Artemis.

Hino is using “fate” many times in her titles, anyway but I could be totally wrong.

I don’t know if I succeeded to convey what I mean here… but IMO the path to correct or change the present and the future through the changing of the past is risky and complicated thus I prefer the reincarnation theory … not that I say that it will come true but up till now is the only theory that combine and explains many “weird” panels and questions in a simpler way haha. It’s just an outlet.

There is also the theory of the premonitions … that Kaname was seeing Yuuki from the future through premonitions and for example in the scene where he mourns over the mirror he saw another tragic one >> Yuuki from the future sacrificing herself (???)

However even if this theory can be based on real scenes and phrases of the story, still doesn’t explain how the Kuran clan started.
The only way that I can see that this theory could work is if Hino evades to give this part of Kaname’s past … for example he had a wife, he started a family and that’s it without going in details.
Although plot wise ain’t the best approach IMO… cuz how can she convey that in Kaname’s life the most important person was Yuuki; a being that he met only through his premonitions i.e. she was an illusion and not his real wife with whom he had children??? Or how he can mourn for a premonition so intensely and not for the losses of beings that he had met??? Just doesn’t add up with Kaname’s character and with common sense up to a point, for me at least.

At first I thought that all the blood she sees was Juuri's own blood after casting the spell. Too much splatter, as her body should have exploded to make such a mess, but I didn't think about anything else. As for the bloody hand

http://www.mangarush.com/files/mangas/vampire-knight/33/7.jpg

the Italian translation is something like "It would be good if you become ALL MINE". That's why I thought about Rido's hand, and nothing else.

I looked up this scene from the volume 7 … the text in English is >>
“You will be… my…

I don’t know how is given the whole scene in Italian version but from my volume I understand that in this scene Yuuki was seeing scenes from her sealed memory that at that point we didn’t know and Hino as always used them to create more drama and cliffhangers lol.

Look at the whole context >>

Yuuki is thinking (dreaming) Kaname’s words >> Be my lover and next there is a small panel with a hand caressing her hair with the text >> “when we grow up… we will become…

(here is the page that I’m referring to, however the text is quite different from the text from the volume that I adduced above)

So my understanding is that Yuuki was seeing fragments of memories from when she was a PB child and was talking with Kaname how when they will grow up will be like their parents.


The bloody hand could be Kaname’s there since Yuuki was seeing everything covered in blood … even her own hands. The blood could be the hint that Yuuki was actually a PB vampire but I agree that so much blood plus her “violent” reaction towards Zero (she tried to strangle him) and Kaname a while back it could be used and for more revelations …
Or it could be a hint for Rido … Yuuki might have had seen only a pair of scary eyes but later Rido tried to take/kill her creating a massacre… so the bloody hand could be Rido’s in a symbolic way since all these scenes were the prelude of Rido’s sub-arc.

---

Now what I want to ask is about this panel >>


source

The two adults’ hands cannot be Yuuki’s and Kaname’s from the scene at the mausoleum simply because their clothes are different from that panel … Kaname is wearing a white shirt and Yuuki a nightgown without sleeves whereas in that panel the man obviously wears a black jacket and the female something with long sleeves.
Additionally one can wonder why Hino had put that grip of adults’ hands in between Yuuki’s grip as a baby and her pic as a toddler!??? What’s the meaning of this flashback from Kaname and on top of that after his line >

I put my memories to sleep since they would get in the way…

Spoiler:

Thank you nina! Amazing post and another piece that puzzles my mind

OMG when will all these little details finish ... gosh.

I had to fight a little my distaste for FB comments like "Kaname must definitely die" on Animea , so that I could compare the two adults' hands with those in the two ball scenes in which Yuuki is night-dressed.

We can exclude the ball with Hunters in ch. 55:

http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-55-page-32.html

as Yuuki wears gloves. The hand in the panel you framed is naked (we can see finger-nails).

We can exclude the very first ball at the Academy, too:

http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-17-page-17.html

As Yuuki seems to have different sleeves, plus Kaname wears the Academy uniform. That we can't see in ch. 62 panel.

Well, I'm really and totally amazed, once more, by the fact that every time I read VK, I really discover something new.

What might be the correct answer to your question, nina? All we can say for certain is that Kaname is hiding something BIG, and that all these discrete little panels are showing us just a little bit.

All we can say is that this little bit may concern some female of his past with black hair and a big hood.

I'm with you nina, that choice of hands is no coincidence, plus it's nothing we can find elsewhere in the story (and after all, what kind of sense would have, to put here a piece of some ball scene of the current plot? It has no connection at all with what Kaname is showing to Yuuki). I think that panel is there because it's probably the first memory of Kaname Yuuki was able to "wake up" with her powers.

Bloody hand

nina wrote:
Yuuki is thinking (dreaming) Kaname’s words >> Be my lover and next there is a small panel with a hand caressing her hair with the text >> “when we grow up… we will become…

(here is the page that I’m referring to, however the text is quite different from the text from the volume that I adduced above)

So my understanding is that Yuuki was seeing fragments of memories from when she was a PB child and was talking with Kaname how when they will grow up will be like their parents.

Yes, I connected Be my lover >> two PB siblings engaged in the past, but it can definitely be also a fragment of PB Yuuki's own memory, "When we grow up, we'll become like father and mother":

http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-36-page-26.html

We can see here the possible continuation of that memory (I quoted the equivalent of Italian translation).

And yes, the bloody hand could really be Kaname's. Even though it's clearly completely disconnected from the memory before. It may be true, though, that Yuuki sees everything covered in blood because she was traumatized by her mother's sacrifice.

nina wrote:
I looked up this scene from the volume 7 … the text in English is >>
“You will be… my…

I don’t know how is given the whole scene in Italian version but from my volume I understand that in this scene Yuuki was seeing scenes from her sealed memory that at that point we didn’t know and Hino as always used them to create more drama and cliffhangers lol.

@nina, unfortunately that scene in Italian version is rendered as it absolutely can't have some second meaning. If you translate the sentence with the Italian equivalent of "ALL MINE" instead of "MY" (MY what???) one can't help but thinking only about Rido wanting to devour her.

Still, there is another panel I hadn't noticed before, the very first memory she sees after becoming a PB:

http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-36-page-20.html

We see a sort of badge (?) in the center of the page, then the monster again. Is it HW? Is it simpy the one her father creates to fight against Rido? Probably. Still, this monster is clearly covered with her hair. Strange.

Mirrors

nina wrote:If they are just a symbol to imply things or they will be used as a supernatural mechanism for example as time-gates, we shall see.

For the time being though and with the clues that we have I’m inclined more towards the first i.e. that at least the mirrors are there to connect things that “normally” are unconnected.

As you could read in some other topic, I was thinking about "it's only a symbol", too. Yet I'm really torn between "reality" and time travel theory

You're right: if time travel is true, there will be a paradox in any case. Since now for Yuuki is almost time to go back to the past: Maybe Kaname's "plan" is trying to avoid this with all his strength, because he KNOWS that Yuuki's going to die there. So he slept for millenia just because he was waiting for her to be born, and protect her so that the story won't "repeat". Well, it's truly a paradox, as you say, as it implies that there is a hopeless destiny - that Hino states here and there - and that nobody can escape it, so Yuuki was DUE to become a PB again, Kaname was DUE to let her go, and so on. If there are variables, then nothing will happen. But it's happening. The consequence is, Kaname's "plan" is useless, because he can try and avoid her to travel in the past, still she will and die. Or maybe, this hopeless destiny is going to be defeated. Who knows?

I must admit that I find this plot more "cool" than reincarnation, so I may not be objective

But I still can't understand how a person can die in the past and be born again in the future without creating an infinite loop. OMG! Stack overflow!

AND I can't understand how Yuuki can be a reincarnation, when the aim of Juuri and Haruka was "creating new life"... when we see Juuri pregnant... when we have no hint that something like this really happens in vampire society.

Still... where do Yuuki and Kaname's forbidden memories come from?

If they were completely disconnected, and Kaname's past wife was simply another lady. Well, those hints - the two hands panel you just showed to us, too - would be completely useless and out of place. Kaname clearly says that nobody can be a replacement for another person, so if he keeps associating Yuuki with somebody from his past, he's contradicting himself. And this is definitely not one of his usual "contradictions".

OMG I'm so confused!

Could you all, reincarnation theorist, solve all my doubts about this? Pleeeeeease!




EDIT: Just a little morning inspiration

@nina, look at the two hands you framed, and at the way Yuuki and Kaname are dressed in the mirror. We can't see her left hand, but it seems her gown has some kind of left sleeve (while right has none). AND it seems to me that Kaname is dressed exactly like the hand in the memory: black suit and white shirt. So, the mirror scene may represent (symbolized, obviously) something that truly happened. May we think that those two hands belong to a WEDDING scene?
Obviously this is only an enormous speculation, but could it be that the mirror scene really represents the wedding between Kaname and the ancestor (as you said before) and could it be that the detail you framed belong exactly to that scene?
Ummm... what did you say about a FRESH mind?

Duskola wrote:
@nina, look at the two hands you framed, and at the way Yuuki and Kaname are dressed in the mirror. We can't see her left hand, but it seems her gown has some kind of left sleeve (while right has none). AND it seems to me that Kaname is dressed exactly like the hand in the memory: black suit and white shirt. So, the mirror scene may represent (symbolized, obviously) something that truly happened.May we think that those two hands belong to a WEDDING scene?
Obviously this is only an enormous speculation, but could it be that the mirror scene really represents the wedding between Kaname and the ancestor (as you said before) and could it be that the detail you framed belong exactly to that scene?
Ummm... what did you say about a FRESH mind?

I see … your mind has been infected, poor girl hahaha

Okay I have a little confession to make … I deliberately didn’t give my thoughts about that panel with the hands because I wanted to hear your insusceptible opinion first … however I don’t know if it is the same “disease” that’s talking hahaha but our thoughts are quite similar.

I had checked me too in the past all the scenes from the soirees thus far but this panel doesn’t match with none, as you also pointed out with the references. Also as you said … what purpose would have served a panel with two faceless hands from a known scene, there? I mean if it was Yuuki and Kaname from a ball most likely Hino would have shown them clearly.

I had never posted that panel thus far in public but I have discussed it with some friends, privately, before… the point is that no one had an answer or an explanation related to the known story, hence I guess we can say that it is another mystery.

So regardless of what could be hidden behind that tiny almost noteless panel or what could represent; the point is that is giving me the hint (if not certainty) that Hino has the intension to reveal things from Kaname’s unknown past because this panel is unrelated … it’s like is planted there from nowhere thus I want to believe that some reason she had in mind to do so.

Back to my speculations about the panel:

What might be the correct answer to your question, nina? All we can say for certain is that Kaname is hiding something BIG, and that all these discrete little panels are showing us just a little bit.

All we can say is that this little bit may concern some female of his past with black hair and a big hood.

I'm with you nina, that choice of hands is no coincidence, plus it's nothing we can find elsewhere in the story (and after all, what kind of sense would have, to put here a piece of some ball scene of the current plot? It has no connection at all with what Kaname is showing to Yuuki). I think that panel is there because it's probably the first memory of Kaname Yuuki was able to "wake up" with her powers.

Exactly Duskola, our line of thinking is identic!
My interpretation is that exactly because Kaname had sealed his memory; as a toddler he couldn’t possibly remember IF even he had a wife in the past. Thus when he met Yuuki’s baby-eyes for the first time something triggered his memory/emotions and he felt that warmth blah blah blah … It could have been very well, Yuuki’s own powers that broke his seal.

But Hino has covered her trails by inserting the current Yuuki into Kaname’s past with the premonition(s) in order to give (maybe a temporarily) explanation of why Kaname felt that warmth as if he had seen those eyes before.

The question though is; how could a premonition, an “illusionary” girl to have left such strong impression to Kaname; … so strong that she was engraved even to his sealed memory???

We know now that Kaname had regained his memory when Juuri and Haruka were still alive. So when he was showing to Yuuki his past except from the first time that he met the newborn Yuuki, in his mind flashed and another memory, currently unrelated with Yuuki and with the whole story >> the panel with the adult’s hands.

So one can at least wonder; even if Kaname had another wife in the past, a different person who had nothing to do with Yuuki, why he interferes or relates that grip with Yuuki’s grip as a baby and her image as a toddler?
And I’m leaving it there as a question hoping that we will have some answers in the future.

---

Still, there is another panel I hadn't noticed before, the very first memory she sees after becoming a PB:

http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-36-page-20.html

We see a sort of badge (?) in the center of the page, then the monster again. Is it HW? Is it simpy the one her father creates to fight against Rido? Probably. Still, this monster is clearly covered with her hair. Strange.

The fragment that Yuuki sees the first time that she took Kaname’s blood is Kaname’s memory from when Rido awakened him … thus and at the mausoleum’s scenes Kaname says to Yuuki that she had already seen this fragment (of Kaname in that incomplete state) before but she couldn’t understand what it was >> http://www.mangareader.net/104-52342-22/vampire-knight/chapter-61.html

And then he unfolds all this horrendous memory of how Rido killed the baby Kaname and awaken the ancestor Kaname.

---

But I still can't understand how a person can die in the past and be born again in the future without creating an infinite loop. OMG! Stack overflow!

AND I can't understand how Yuuki can be a reincarnation, when the aim of Juuri and Haruka was "creating new life"... when we see Juuri pregnant... when we have no hint that something like this really happens in vampire society.

The reincarnation ain’t contradictory with the fact that Yuuki was indeed born from Juuri. This is how reincarnation “works” and for the cultures that believe in reincarnated lives/souls >> a body dies but its spirit/soul never, so is taking another body (even from animals) as “vehicle” … born again to live another life, to take the lessons that it didn’t in its past life etc…
The bodies are brittle whereas the souls are energy … energy cannot be destroyed, can only transformed into a different type thus and the entropy of the universe is constantly increasing.
Well the reincarnation is a matter of culture/religion … but in our story, since it is supernatural and we are talking about beings with enormous powers, the boundaries are almost nonexistent… I wouldn’t be surprised if a PB soul could be reincarnated deliberately … i.e. planned either from the soul or even from the couple that would bring to life that soul >> in our case Juuri and Haruka. But it could be also based to fate… << I prefer that one since I’m a sucker for love stories and soulmates that defy the spatiotemporal boundaries for be together…<3333 hahaha

Let’s make a hypothesis >> Kaname after HW’s death and after he saw Yuuki in his premonition (note: there Yuuki mentions IF he’ll replace that HW with another!) he met another PB … he fallen in love and started a family with her but very early she died … the thread of her life was cut tragically … in a sense they hadn’t the chance to live their love, to close a circle >>> thus Kaname chooses the slumber with a teeny-tiny hope that he could met her again in the future.

Now here his premonitions and his visions of Yuuki could be the reason of that little hope that Kaname had when he went into slumber. What IF he recognized on Yuuki’s face from the future the wife he lost??? If so then it makes also sense why her eyes had engraved into his memory … she wasn’t just an unknown illusionary girl who had seen a few times into his premonitions but a person who had loved and lost in the past…

Well I’ll repeat that this is just a fiction for the time being … not contradictory with what we know thus far BUT the actual plot could take a totally different direction.

@Duskola if you haven’t read already the thread about the reincarnation theory here’s the link … and this one in which we have discussed more mysteries and you might find some clues that could lead you to another path

nina wrote: I see … your mind has been infected, poor girl hahaha

LOL yes, I'm totally infected and I'm trying to spread the disease too, but my boyfriend is not interested while my otaku friend is soooooooooo lazy I think he'll finish reading just after VK is finished =_=''' but I HAVE to talk about this to somebody living here (making him/her fall into my same madness - or using him/her as my own psychotherapist ), so I'll totally keep on trying

nina wrote:Okay I have a little confession to make … I deliberately didn’t give my thoughts about that panel with the hands because I wanted to hear your insusceptible opinion first …

Evil plan but it totally worked!!! Splendid empirical procedure!

nina wrote:
But Hino has covered her trails by inserting the current Yuuki into Kaname’s past with the premonition(s) in order to give (maybe a temporarily) explanation of why Kaname felt that warmth as if he had seen those eyes before.

Exactly the same thing I think about that episode (I start feeling a bit frightened by how our views are similar ). You may never be sure about what EVIL HINO really wants to tell.

nina wrote:
The question though is; how could a premonition, an “illusionary” girl to have left such strong impression to Kaname; … so strong that she was engraved even to his sealed memory???

Yes, it would be very uncommon, to be so attached to the eyes of a simple premonition with thoughts like "THIS TIME I want to protect that warmth". Well, "THIS TIME" implies a "LAST TIME" so the outcome is logical. You cannot lose a dream or a vision. Kaname probably lost much more.

nina wrote:
So one can at least wonder; even if Kaname had another wife in the past, a different person who had nothing to do with Yuuki, why he interferes or relates that grip with Yuuki’s grip as a baby and her image as a toddler?
And I’m leaving it there as a question hoping that we will have some answers in the future.

Any volunteers? I fear we won't have any certain knowledge until Hino decides to untangle this mish-mash. Sob.

nina wrote:
The fragment that Yuuki sees the first time that she took Kaname’s blood is Kaname’s memory from when Rido awakened him … thus and at the mausoleum’s scenes Kaname says to Yuuki that she had already seen this fragment (of Kaname in that incomplete state) before but she couldn’t understand what it was >> http://www.mangareader.net/104-52342-22/vampire-knight/chapter-61.html

And then he unfolds all this horrendous memory of how Rido killed the baby Kaname and awaken the ancestor Kaname.

OMG it's real! That is truly Kaname's long hair after 2000 years of slumber. I wasn't able to connect the two episodes until now, thank you!
LOL now I want to see his past wife everywhere, I must pay attention not to be swayed by my hopes.
Now I expect somebody to connect the monster face with HW (I read a theory in which this kind of monster face is related to HW because when Zero - clearly HW reincarnation - eats his brother, you can see the same monster face in his shadow on the wall - ?????? - so Zero is a reincarnation of HW, Kaname is a reincarnation of HW, and Yuuki too, must be a reincarnation of HW. Poor HW! She had been really broken to pieces more than we know )

Seriously. As regards reincarnation.

nina wrote:
The bodies are brittle whereas the souls are energy … energy cannot be destroyed, can only transformed into a different type thus and the entropy of the universe is constantly increasing.

You stated exactly my religious views, so I believe this happens in reality
AND this may truly be the explanation of every VK mistery we've discovered so far. So I absolutely don't want to exclude it, and I think that apart from being a matter of reincarnation or time travel, the story is going to be wonderful (Hino can really take everything and transform it into poetry).

The only thing that I would find strange is that - from what I've read until now - it seems to me she's somewhat "logical" in what she writes, that is, if reincarnation would be possible in her "world", then she would have showed us something like that, instead of reviving pure blood raising from their coffins. BUT obviously, with Hino you can't know until the very end, so maybe she kept the biggest power of PB secret so that she could make us all a BIG SURPRISE in the end!

nina wrote:
I wouldn’t be surprised if a PB soul could be reincarnated deliberately … i.e. planned either from the soul or even from the couple that would bring to life that soul >> in our case Juuri and Haruka.

I have to say - again - that I thought the same thing to solve my "reincarnation matter", that Jurika really decide to "make new life", but that for PB "making new life" means "reviving in new bodies" the souls of the ancestors. PB's reproduction rules may really be different from human's ones. From this perspective, Kaname jr's death is terrible... but definitely his soul will revive when the right moment comes? Oh, well, I'll go to the topics you linked to have further infos, thank you!!!!! ;)

nina wrote:
Let’s make a hypothesis >> Kaname after HW’s death and after he saw Yuuki in his premonition (note: there Yuuki mentions IF he’ll replace that HW with another!) he met another PB … he fallen in love and started a family with her but very early she died … the thread of her life was cut tragically … in a sense they hadn’t the chance to live their love, to close a circle >>> thus Kaname chooses the slumber with a teeny-tiny hope that he could met her again in the future.

Yes, it must be after, because when he sees Yuuki he's clearly still suffering from HW's goodbye. Then he must meet someone - during that battle? - but after seeing Yuuki.

If you think about it, even naming Artemis is a paradox. If you go back to the future and name a thing that you know has some name, then, that thing always had that name, or you are just facing the consequences of something you haven't done yet? Gosh!!!!

But there is one thing that comforts me. If Kaname talks about Artemis as being the goddess of CHASTITY (referring to HW), well. CHASTITY. If you know what I mean ... He really must have broken this CHASTITY with someone else!

Duskola wrote: The only thing that I would find strange is that - from what I've read until now - it seems to me she's somewhat "logical" in what she writes, that is, if reincarnation would be possible in her "world", then she would have showed us something like that, instead of reviving pure blood raising from their coffins. BUT obviously, with Hino you can't know until the very end, so maybe she kept the biggest power of PB secret so that she could make us all a BIG SURPRISE in the end!

Ah I have thought about that too, and you are right on this observation. But even IF Hino would use the reincarnation “trick” or something similar to that (since it is supernatural you never know what mechanism she can think of lol) that doesn’t necessarily means that it is a power or a procedure that ALL PBs can perform, neither Hino is obligated to show that this can happen regularly.

Where she can base on? >>

1. That not ALL PBs have the same powers … their abilities varied. For example Shizuka could “manipulate” plants … we saw that she was standing beside a blooming sakura in the middle of winter when she attack at the Kiryuus, but this power was unique… we didn’t see any other PB to do the same. Either way I think it was Aidou who had said very early in the story that only the PBs themselves know their powers hence their abilities differ.

2. The PBs’ progenitors (like Kaname, HW and ALL the first breed of PBs who appeared 10000 ago) had superior powers than PBs of second, third generation etc. Now we know that only Kaname has left from the progenitors and no one else thus and he is the most powerful being.
BUT IF Kaname had a wife in the past that woman it is very possible to have been a progenitor herself i.e. that she possessed superior abilities as well … powers that the current PBs do not have. So even in the extreme scenario that the soul of his past wife could return taking Yuuki’s body that doesn’t mean that the same could happen with the rest of the PBs who have died.

Because as also you pointed out >>

I have to say - again - that I thought the same thing to solve my "reincarnation matter", that Jurika really decide to "make new life", but that for PB "making new life" means "reviving in new bodies" the souls of the ancestors. PB's reproduction rules may really be different from human's ones. From this perspective, Kaname jr's death is terrible... but definitely his soul will revive when the right moment comes?

I agree … if they could do it then they could bring back and the baby Kaname. Here can only play the excuse that the soul of the past wife was a progenitor hence there was a way to do it. But it’s not obligatory that Juuri and Haruka knew who would bring into life either way… it could be the soul who did it… why? Because Kaname was awakened… >> soulmates that were seeking to reunite <3

There is another clue that could support that this procedure isn’t something that can happen “easily” or that never happened before and that IF it happened is something unique that even Kaname didn’t know how it could happen… >>

1. If to bring back in life a dead PB was something that all the PBs could do then I think Kaname with his superior powers would have done it IF he had lost his wife tragically in the past.

2. His talk with Rido at the mausoleum … Rido there rhetorically asking Kaname “what he was waiting in that coffin?” … Kaname denies that he was waiting something but it is apparent that Rido was right on this … he indeed was waiting something even if that hope was tiny and with no guarantee that would come true yet he chose the slumber over an instant death.
So, what IF Kaname was waiting for his past wife to “return”; basing his little hope only on a premonition of a young vampire girl from the future???
If so then it proves that EVEN in the case that Yuuki is the reincarnation of his past wife he didn’t know for sure that this could happen hence neither HOW this could happen, making this event unique >.<

And here’s my fairytale triggered of the fated love that Hino often uses ^^

Spoiler:

Oh, well, I'll go to the topics you linked to have further infos, thank you!!!!! ;)

You are welcome and if you have time and the appetite you can read Juliet’s fic … it is a great mature story fu fu fu (~_^) (you would fallen in love with Kaname even more!!! If that’s possible hahaha) and it’s based on the reincarnation theory.

nina wrote:

Duskola wrote: The only thing that I would find strange is that - from what I've read until now - it seems to me she's somewhat "logical" in what she writes, that is, if reincarnation would be possible in her "world", then she would have showed us something like that, instead of reviving pure blood raising from their coffins. BUT obviously, with Hino you can't know until the very end, so maybe she kept the biggest power of PB secret so that she could make us all a BIG SURPRISE in the end!

Ah I have thought about that too, and you are right on this observation. But even IF Hino would use the reincarnation “trick” or something similar to that (since it is supernatural you never know what mechanism she can think of lol) that doesn’t necessarily means that it is a power or a procedure that ALL PBs can perform, neither Hino is obligated to show that this can happen regularly.

Where she can base on? >>

1. That not ALL PBs have the same powers … their abilities varied. For example Shizuka could “manipulate” plants … we saw that she was standing beside a blooming sakura in the middle of winter when she attack at the Kiryuus, but this power was unique… we didn’t see any other PB to do the same. Either way I think it was Aidou who had said very early in the story that only the PBs themselves know their powers hence their abilities differ.

2. The PBs’ progenitors (like Kaname, HW and ALL the first breed of PBs who appeared 10000 ago) had superior powers than PBs of second, third generation etc. Now we know that only Kaname has left from the progenitors and no one else thus and he is the most powerful being.
BUT IF Kaname had a wife in the past that woman it is very possible to have been a progenitor herself i.e. that she possessed superior abilities as well … powers that the current PBs do not have. So even in the extreme scenario that the soul of his past wife could return taking Yuuki’s body that doesn’t mean that the same could happen with the rest of the PBs who have died.

Because as also you pointed out >>

I have to say - again - that I thought the same thing to solve my "reincarnation matter", that Jurika really decide to "make new life", but that for PB "making new life" means "reviving in new bodies" the souls of the ancestors. PB's reproduction rules may really be different from human's ones. From this perspective, Kaname jr's death is terrible... but definitely his soul will revive when the right moment comes?

I agree … if they could do it then they could bring back and the baby Kaname. Here can only play the excuse that the soul of the past wife was a progenitor hence there was a way to do it. But it’s not obligatory that Juuri and Haruka knew who would bring into life either way… it could be the soul who did it… why? Because Kaname was awakened… >> soulmates that were seeking to reunite <3

There is another clue that could support that this procedure isn’t something that can happen “easily” or that never happened before and that IF it happened is something unique that even Kaname didn’t know how it could happen… >>

1. If to bring back in life a dead PB was something that all the PBs could do then I think Kaname with his superior powers would have done it IF he had lost his wife tragically in the past.

2. His talk with Rido at the mausoleum … Rido there rhetorically asking Kaname “what he was waiting in that coffin?” … Kaname denies that he was waiting something but it is apparent that Rido was right on this … he indeed was waiting something even if that hope was tiny and with no guarantee that would come true yet he chose the slumber over an instant death.
So, what IF Kaname was waiting for his past wife to “return”; basing his little hope only on a premonition of a young vampire girl from the future???
If so then it proves that EVEN in the case that Yuuki is the reincarnation of his past wife he didn’t know for sure that this could happen hence neither HOW this could happen, making this event unique >.<

And here’s my fairytale triggered of the fated love that Hino often uses ^^

Spoiler:

Oh, well, I'll go to the topics you linked to have further infos, thank you!!!!! ;)

You are welcome and if you have time and the appetite you can read Juliet’s fic … it is a great mature story fu fu fu (~_^) (you would fallen in love with Kaname even more!!! If that’s possible hahaha) and it’s based on the reincarnation theory.

even if a single of it is true,this totally kicks out a zeki ending.

me likey

very nice explanation and logical much though i am still very much in doubt of a reincarnation in the story.