What kind of feeling?

First topic message reminder :

In chapter 87, Yuuki said her feeling for Zero are real. But what do think what kind of feeling she means?

Duskola wrote:@juliet, what is the Dilemma chapter?

I suppose Juliet was referring on chapter 51 where Yuuki’s inner human side “fought” with her vampire side and in the end we saw her resolution thus and the “dilemma” title >>

Spoiler:

BUT as @nina says, I was also too hot-tempered (as supposed by an hot Italian girl lol... just joking) and I think we have to wait next chapters to understand what actually happened.

Haha I’m hot-tempered too lol must be the genes shhh and I can feel you. Don’t worry … sometimes letting the steam out is a good thing (~_^)

This is Hino’s style after all… it’s always difficult to interpret for sure every current chapter without the continuation … thus and IMO the best way is to look at the bigger picture and try to connected as many scenes as possible … to consider the wider frame where is placed a scene in question, in order to draw some connotations until the story provide solid explanations.

So, despite the kiss or not kiss question and so on, the fact is that from this very scene we can't see a true change in Zeki's feelings and in the balance of the supposed "love triangle". Everything is like the beginning. Yuuki cherishes and cares for Zero - Oh, what a news! She's been telling this since the first few chapters - but there is always a big BUT, that is her love for Kaname - oh yes, it's love.

Exactly
And as you said … what is the new? That Yuuki cherish or cares for Zero? Who ever doubt about that? But isn’t only this that Yuuki says and thinks in this chapter… is it? Let’s track down Yuuki’s line of thinking:

-She also is troubled cuz she believes that Zero is hungry … she tries to interact with Zero as in the past > “How did I use to talk to Zero in the past?” << doesn’t this line deprive the spontaneousness of Yuuki’s actions?

- After her attempt to “lure” Zero to feed upon her, he reveals a shocking new … that he actually fed upon his preys! Note Yuuki’s shocked face after this revelation. Doesn’t this create sympathy, “pity” or even guilt to Yuuki? I think yes simply because Yuuki believes that her existence partly brought this misfortune to Zero too. Hence and later says to him >>

Yuuki: You too…you are a lot like the boy who used to worry about and protect me, and who I hurt.

There is the guilt part … she hurt him even though her genuine intention was and still is to cherish that boy >>

Yuuki: Why did things end up like this? The boy I want to cherish…And my feelings for him are real…

Ofc her feelings are real … this also answers to Zero’s words of the previous chapter that their feelings were manipulated… something that I never believed as true.
So is out of the blue Yuuki’s thought that she wants to cherish that boy; or there is an emotional path that Yuuki follows to end up saying this line; which as Duskola also pointed out isn’t something new anyway?

And more important might be her last thought over Kaname’s depiction >> “But I” … what? Could it be that despite I want to cherish that boy and never meant to hurt him I might do that again? Well we shall see…

And something else that it doesn’t support the notion that Yuuki’s thoughts and feelings have the romantic touch in them at least IMO…
If we note her flashbacks we will see that are all scenes that indicate her care and efforts to help Zero… from their childhood till their times at the academy where she fed him with her blood… BUT what is missing from these recollections? IMO is missing the most important moment IF Yuuki there was expressing her romantic feelings towards Zero >> their kiss! IF she was in that mood … IF she wanted to be kissed from Zero wouldn’t she have thought their previous kiss? Isn’t that the most romantic moment of the two of them? Isn’t the moment that Zero declared his romantic feelings for her without doubt??? Just wondering again how Hino “forgot” to add this flashback… >>

And, I repeat, it's very strange to see this "kiss" and Yuuki's POV together, as Yuuki repeats something she's been telling from the very beginning, that is: "I really care for Zero, I love Zero, my feelings for him are real, so why did it have to end like this?". Like this what? If this was the start of her relationship, it would not be an END. Without a doubt, she has strong feelings for Zero but she also feels guilty, and in this scene too. I sense she feels guilty in this scene for something she's doing right now. So, what is she doing, or what she intends to do, apart the "kiss or not kiss" question?

We'll discover in next chapter

My perception exactly Duskola \0/ … and note Yuuki’s facial expression when she removes her mask and looks at Kaname… seems like a girl who was caught or even startled by Kaname’s appearance? I don’t get that feeling at all…

If this kiss is a fake, then Hino was very clever, because I was deceived, too, and because the whole scene (the two of them dancing, the two of them with heads near, Yuuki's memories, Yuuki's POV) truly spreads how deep Yuuki's feelings are, and how she's capable to love and care. And these feelings are so deep that my own first thought was: "Well, after a lot of chapters in which she says she loves Kaname, and after a few hours in which she told Zero he made her final decision, she changed her mind again??? Oh my Yuuki, you make me crazy!".

I second that… and you are pointing out a very important issue that many of us are forgetting in our attempt to support our ships … that is Yuuki and her character. How Yuuki would be seemed if one moment says I belong to that man and the next she feels in love with another?
And bottom line … why Hino had to put her in the very previous chapter to say these words; … words that came out of nowhere… just to reverse them in the blink of an eye making Yuuki the most unstable and frivolous girl??? Where it supposed to have gone all her efforts to grow; to find her resolutions; to find what she really feels and wants through all these chapters? All these were for nothing?

Frankly if this was real and I mean in the way that Hino seems to serving us Yuuki’s swing then I wouldn’t only say that Yuuki isn’t only a girl who doesn’t know her bearings or that she has a torn heart between two boys; but that she has a split personality … that she suffers from bipolar disorder lol

So, less then a half of my rage was due to the fact that I like Yuuki and I don't want her to become a turncoat after seeing her grow and becoming stronger.
.
.
…what's the point in going to the mansion to do nothing at all, then throwing down a hill to hurry to Isaya's home, and then organizing a BALL? O_____O I mean, I really hoped to see some development in the obscure points Hino left back

I feel the same… well many times we are caught up with the LT and we disregard the rest of the plot … not without Hino’s “help” ofc… IMO she plays with this from every angle and if you look it … from Yume or from Zeki perspective … and synchronously she is sacrificing on this altar the rest of the story which I found it sad especially in this phase of the story which most likely is gearing towards the end… the script doesn’t need such “tricks”… but this is only my personal taste.

There are many things that running under the surface –one as you stressed out; what Yuuki did at the mansion?- and other too that I probably will mention in the main thread for this chapter.

Just wondering again how Hino “forgot” to add this flashback… >>

M...good observation > apparently cherishing someone does not necessarily mean having romantic feelings of him, love is enough> I think that here Yuuki stretches her guilts of their past, how the started, how they ended > yet the kiss that misses is obviously missing...isn't that what you first rememeber from your lovers or potential boyfriends?

My perception exactly Duskola \0/ … and note Yuuki’s facial expression when she removes her mask and looks at Kaname… seems like a girl who was caught or even startled by Kaname’s appearance? I don’t get that feeling at all…

not at all surprised...


trying to see the forest and not the tree >

Like this what? If this was the start of her relationship, it would not be an END. Without a doubt, she has strong feelings for Zero but she also feels guilty, and in this scene too. I sense she feels guilty in this scene for something she's doing right now. So, what is she doing, or what she intends to do, apart the "kiss or not kiss" question?

She started by almost saying goodbye to Yori > Yuuki wanted to be remembered, that's an indication that she might feel that she wont return

Zero followed her > that means she would do this with or without him

She specifically explains to him that she belongs to Kaname > so that he knows her feelings, can not say that she manipulated her feelings in any way

visits the mansion, then joins Isaya idea for the masquearade > they are preparing something, they must have a plan...

they dance she reflects the past (without the kissing scene), she asks herself how they ended up like this: so in reality she asks about today...

how today they reached this point where >

her last lines are: I want to cherish this boy, my feelings are real but I...

so despite wanting to protect him and care for him, and she means it she is about to do something that she originally intended to?

Isn't that the total feeling of the scene? or i am so wrong?

she lingers to the past, she feels that she has done harm there, but it seems that there is more coming > she makes it clear that she means no harm, she has already explained to Zero what's the case (she belongs with Kaname).

How is that following the script until now at least? and one last thing...at the end of the panels with the flashbacks, Zero's gaze seems aware of something, and then we have the kiss..

we know that he can sense Kaname from kilometers away (remember the scene at the mountains), he knows when a pureblood is near, why does he choose that moment? isn't that another clue there?

I think that it's not Kaname interrupting, its Zero and Yuuki that picked that moment...Kaname seems to come from the inside of the building, if so that was not so unexpected either...

Duskola wrote:@Conrad Weller: UUUUraboku I also changed my avatar with Zess-chan ( :Q_____ ) because for now I'm a little disappointed by Yuuki my poor cute little Yuuki... I love her so much as a character that I really DON'T WANT to see her become frivolous or throw away all her developments I've seen until now.

BUT as @nina says, I was also too hot-tempered (as supposed by an hot Italian girl lol... just joking) and I think we have to wait next chapters to understand what actually happened.

And @Conrad, I'm with you, too, when you say that if we judge Yuuki's feelings by how many times she kisses each of them during the story, well, as everything else, her relationship with Kaname surpasses the Zeki one by far. And maybe nobody of those who thinks that this "kiss" is the proof that she loves Zero and not Kaname went back through every panel to see how many times Yuuki told she loves Kaname, and how many times (zero) she told the same to Zero ().

ah you understood what i was trying to say it's just zekis are pretty happy about a kiss. it's not exactly something to brag about. i was pretty amused by some comments that zeki has won. i am sorry but i see no such thing.

because then it's pretty obvious yume will be the pairing to prevail in the end. well
i hope it will be yume, whether there was a kiss between zero and yuuki or not i am not bothered. i have never twice looked at zeki scenes.

Conrad Weller wrote:ah you understood what i was trying to say it's just zekis are pretty happy about a kiss. it's not exactly something to brag about. i was pretty amused by some comments that zeki has won. i am sorry but i see no such thing.

because then it's pretty obvious yume will be the pairing to prevail in the end. well
i hope it will be yume, whether there was a kiss between zero and yuuki or not i am not bothered. i have never twice looked at zeki scenes.

I've always been confident that Yume will be the pairing to prevail in the end. For the simple fact that it's taken Yuuki such a long time to say what she feels for Zero. It shouldn't be hard at all for her to figure out what Zero means to her. And here with 87 chapters...she wants to cherish the boy. Something she's said before, nothing new there but some Zekis think this means she's deeply in love with Zero. Ok, so Yuuki is deeply in love with the boy she wants to cherish, but she's not at all in love with the man she's loved her entire life and claim she wants to fall to the deepest depths with? I'll never understand Zekis logic.

Now the kiss, Yuuki doesn't look flustered...there's no blush. Kaname always teased Yuuki in the past, how she blushes even after they've kissed many times. I can only think that there was no kiss, or if there was a kiss it wasn't that kind of a kiss...but Yuuki simply letting Zero kiss her becoz this will probably be the last time.

nina wrote:Haha I’m hot-tempered too lol must be the genes shhh and I can feel you. Don’t worry … sometimes letting the steam out is a good thing (~_^)

*_* \O/

nina wrote:This is Hino’s style after all... it’s always difficult to interpret for sure every current chapter without the continuation

NOW. I. UNDERSTAAAAAAAAAAAAAND. *cries*
I mean, these are the first two chapters I read “monthly”, and I think my view of the story until them was also influenced (and made more clear) by the fact that I read it all at once. And maybe I was led to think about a possible Yume ending mostly because of this? Now I can understand why some are so frustrated and maybe confused... because if you read VK chapter by chapter every month, it's very difficul to connect the pieces and not to let your rage and frustration floating around . Well, lesson achieved (?)

nina wrote:what is the new? That Yuuki cherish or cares for Zero? Who ever doubt about that?

I'm starting to ask myself the same thing, as I'm tired to explain that I. NEVER. THOUGHT. THAT. ZERO. IS. ONLY. A. SIMPLE. FRIEND. OR. NOT. IMPORTANT. TO. YUUKI. And that I'm not in Yuuki's head, I can rely only upon what she's said until now. But all I receive back, is hate and underestimation for both Yuuki, Kaname and their relationship (sometimes masked with an apparent understanding). So, why should I respect a POV that doesn't respect mine – or is simply based on the hidden assumption that there obviously is an interpretation more fitting than mine? I don't know.

nina wrote:she tries to interact with Zero as in the past > “How did I use to talk to Zero in the past?” << doesn’t this line deprive the spontaneousness of Yuuki’s actions?

Correct, and this surely is not a hint they are drawing closer, that may be the prerequisite for a long waited and passionate “kiss” scene IMO.

nina wrote:
(Zero) actually fed upon his preys! Note Yuuki’s shocked face after this revelation. Doesn’t this create sympathy, “pity” or even guilt to Yuuki? I think yes simply because Yuuki believes that her existence partly brought this misfortune to Zero too

Correct again, because she understood that Kaname's plan (about Zero, too) directly involves her. And now we have an explanation for Zero's extreme desire to go hunting. Not only for his hate, but also for his self-control. Oh, well, but poor poor Zero, every evil action he does, is justified, because he's so unlucky. If we might need a proof that he didn't grow up a bit and keep hating vampires (and Yuuki's PB side), here it is.

nina wrote:
this also answers to Zero’s words of the previous chapter that their feelings were manipulated... something that I never believed as true. 

I also sensed Yuuki's POV as an answer to Zero's question in last chapter, that maybe a lot forgot

nina wrote:IF Yuuki there was expressing her romantic feelings towards Zero >> their kiss! IF she was in that mood … IF she wanted to be kissed from Zero wouldn’t she have thought their previous kiss? Isn’t that the most romantic moment of the two of them? Isn’t the moment that Zero declared his romantic feelings for her without doubt??? Just wondering again how Hino “forgot” to add this flashback... >>

*applause*

And let us not forget Zero's kissing attempt in the first few chapters! And the fact that the suffering for being "separated" from her "true love", that she felt when they kissed goodbye, should truly be the key of the twist.

nina wrote:Frankly if this was real and I mean in the way that Hino seems to serving us Yuuki’s swing then I wouldn’t only say that Yuuki isn’t only a girl who doesn’t know her bearings or that she has a torn heart between two boys; but that she has a split personality... that she suffers from bipolar disorder lol

Oh yes, but many would prefer a crazy main female character only to make poor Zero happy. Let's imagine Zero's life near a bipolar-disorder-Yuuki hooooow happy will he be! As soon as she meets somebody else, or as soon as she changes his mind, she's going to leave him at home knitting.

ButterfyWingsX wrote:Ok, so Yuuki is deeply in love with the boy she wants to cherish, but she's not at all in love with the man she's loved her entire life and claim she wants to fall to the deepest depths with?  I'll never understand Zekis logic. 

Zekis logic is that Yuuki's love for Kaname has always been false, or that she doesn't love him anymore since he left her (or before). You must not state that, probably, the fact she never said the word “love” to Zero should cast at least some doubts about this interpretation: this is what it is, this is what they think, and this is the end, yours is only but one interpretation among many possible. I mean, I HAD some doubts about Yume reading this chapters (and some panels in the past), but they NEVER HAD a doubt about Zeki by reading the whole 86. BUT I also read some comments of Zekis that truly accept the fact that – maybe – some of Yume's love words could be true wonderful!

The fact is, when I state that Yuuki loves Kaname, I'm not going to tell how the story will end. I'm aware that we may have a Zeki ending, it's a possibility. But I READ about Yume's love and I can't simply deny it existed or exists. But this is the only reaction to this simple assumption: “OMG! Do you really want to tell me that we WON'T have a Zeki ending???”. So. What's the point in this? The two facts are not strictly connected – Yuuki loves Kaname, but her mind can still change, Kaname might die, and there can be a clever way that Hino finds to solve the puzzle and finally have Zeki together. So, why do they feel the need to strictly deny Yuuki have ever truly loved Kaname?

Maybe because if they admit that Yume's panels are real, this would lead them to a big pile of doubts and damage their supposed “truth”? Maybe because they are accidentally admitting that if this kind of love is real, then Hino can't erase it simply with a few maybe-kiss or true-kiss panels?

Oh, well, let's stop this or I will surely accidentally offend someone.

Wonderful commen @juliet, too. I've just developed some of the points you listed – and some others- in the main 87 chapter topic.

ButterflyWingsx wrote:

Conrad Weller wrote:ah you understood what i was trying to say it's just zekis are pretty happy about a kiss. it's not exactly something to brag about. i was pretty amused by some comments that zeki has won. i am sorry but i see no such thing.

because then it's pretty obvious yume will be the pairing to prevail in the end. well
i hope it will be yume, whether there was a kiss between zero and yuuki or not i am not bothered. i have never twice looked at zeki scenes.

I've always been confident that Yume will be the pairing to prevail in the end. For the simple fact that it's taken Yuuki such a long time to say what she feels for Zero. It shouldn't be hard at all for her to figure out what Zero means to her. And here with 87 chapters...she wants to cherish the boy. Something she's said before, nothing new there but some Zekis think this means she's deeply in love with Zero. Ok, so Yuuki is deeply in love with the boy she wants to cherish, but she's not at all in love with the man she's loved her entire life and claim she wants to fall to the deepest depths with? I'll never understand Zekis logic.

Now the kiss, Yuuki doesn't look flustered...there's no blush. Kaname always teased Yuuki in the past, how she blushes even after they've kissed many times. I can only think that there was no kiss, or if there was a kiss it wasn't that kind of a kiss...but Yuuki simply letting Zero kiss her becoz this will probably be the last time.

i agree with you. zekis tend to forget yuuki's feelings towards kaname.

@Conrad Weller, they don't forget and can't forget. But as you can read elsewhere, they simply believe that Zeki is a forbidden love that Yuuki didn't want to follow because Zero is a hunter, plus hates PB, so he doesn't accept her as she is (and this is true - that he hates PB and stubbornly blame Yuuki for the fact of being a PB ). So, the "inescapable decision" she made choosing Kaname is due to the fact that "she knows what is her place" and she simply can't love a hunter - that, on top of that, hates her true nature. So, as now she could dance with him, she finally understood that he doesn't hate her and this is why they kissed. Consequence >> She always forced herself to say all those love things to Kaname until now, as they were provoked by her perception of "impossible love" for Zero.

That is >> the only possible explanation and sense of the story that supports this POV, is that all Yume scenes until now were based upon a Yuuki's stubborn and childish belief, so she said "love" words to Kaname because she had no other choice and didn't want to be alone.

Well, I think that any interpretation based on the fact that all those love panels were fake or forced, is a bit far-fetched. Why they can't simply say: "Well, she loves Kaname but she hasn't understood her feelings for Zero yet"? Why do they have to find "possible alternative explanations" for the FACTS and SENTENCES we've been reading until now? Why Yuuki's love for Kaname and her possible change of mind to Zero's advantage simply CAN'T coexist?

In any case, is there a post in this forum that collects all the sentences and panels in which Yuuki shows her feelings? If not, I think I'll try and collect them so that we can build an absolutely objective global view of the story until now.

Duskola wrote:

In any case, is there a post in this forum that collects all the sentences and panels in which Yuuki shows her feelings? If not, I think I'll try and collect them so that we can build an absolutely objective global view of the story until now.

Yeah I remembered that I had tried to gather some of the Yume quotes HERE
Are not all of them there … so if you want you can add more in that list. There are left many out. See that’s the “problem” with the Yume no-love … are so many the lines that someone will need days to gather all of them … whereas the “true loves” can be found in a few lines *cough*

Ooooooh @nina that's wonderful! I had some great ambition - to create a post with ALL the quotes and panels regarding both Yume and Zeki in the whole plot, so that I can link it to any other who says me "Kaname brother-zoned" or "Yuuki has always had a forbidden love for Zero, it's clearly stated in ch. X" and so on.

(Every allusion is pure coincidence ).

BUT creating something like this - that is, checking every scene and sentence from chapter to chapter - would take me some time, so, would you mind if I link that post for now? So that every Zeki that comes out of the blue with some strange and disconnected theories may be invited (by me) to comment every sentence you gathered and contextualize them as he pleases!

Duskola wrote:@Conrad Weller, they don't forget and can't forget. But as you can read elsewhere, they simply believe that Zeki is a forbidden love that Yuuki didn't want to follow because Zero is a hunter, plus hates PB, so he doesn't accept her as she is (and this is true - that he hates PB and stubbornly blame Yuuki for the fact of being a PB ). So, the "inescapable decision" she made choosing Kaname is due to the fact that "she knows what is her place" and she simply can't love a hunter - that, on top of that, hates her true nature. So, as now she could dance with him, she finally understood that he doesn't hate her and this is why they kissed. Consequence >> She always forced herself to say all those love things to Kaname until now, as they were provoked by her perception of "impossible love" for Zero.

That is >> the only possible explanation and sense of the story that supports this POV, is that all Yume scenes until now were based upon a Yuuki's stubborn and childish belief, so she said "love" words to Kaname because she had no other choice and didn't want to be alone.

Well, I think that any interpretation based on the fact that all those love panels were fake or forced, is a bit far-fetched. Why they can't simply say: "Well, she loves Kaname but she hasn't understood her feelings for Zero yet"? Why do they have to find "possible alternative explanations" for the FACTS and SENTENCES we've been reading until now? Why Yuuki's love for Kaname and her possible change of mind to Zero's advantage simply CAN'T coexist?

In any case, is there a post in this forum that collects all the sentences and panels in which Yuuki shows her feelings? If not, I think I'll try and collect them so that we can build an absolutely objective global view of the story until now.

i thought yuuki loved kaname even when she was in her human form too, so the thing that you are saying that the zekis think is pretty funny.

yuuki is a pureblood and she loves kaname no matter what. it didn't bother her when she was a human and it didn't bother her when she realises she is a pureblood because her love for kaname remains unchanged.

you re actually making it sound like she loves kaname out of obligation which isn't true. if this is what zekis think, well then i have nothing further to add.

in anycase you answered zekis problem yourself. they don't want to admit yuuki loves kaname.

i wonder why someone would want to waste their time in making a story of obligatory love. since the supposed obligatory love takes up most of the story. not to mention many romantic scenes are between the two people who everyone believes is fake love or a form of obligation.

A rant :


There are 2 different online English scanlations available . Which differ basically in one phrase / sentence . This happens during Yuuki's inner dialogue of pages 38 - 40 .

S2S scan translation :

Yuuki : ( thinking ) " Why did it turn out to be like this ? The guy that I wanted to treasure . Fondness . This feeling is real too . It's hidden in me ... but I ... "

Whitelily scans translation :

Yuuki : ( thinking ) " Why did it end up like this between us ? The boy that I want to cherish ... I love him . this feeling is also real . It exists inside of me ... But ... I "

Japanese text :

"どうして　こんなことになつちゃったんだろう" " 大切にしたい男の子"

"好き" "この思いも本物在処は私の中...."

"でも　　私は－－－"

The bolded word / phrase is the same one that appears on top of Zeki's kiss in every version .

" 好き " is the word for " suki " . No discussion here . This is the only word translated dramatically different on both versions .

The rest of the words in each translation are more or less equivalent . Look different only because of translator's variants on wording .

Spoiler:

But my questions are :

Why translate " SUKI " as " I love him " instead of " I like him " / " Fondness" ?

Why Hino used " SUKI " instead of " AISHITERU " ?


" SUKI " is more commonly used in non - romantic situations . The " I like X thing / person . " Or in platonic love . "AISHITERU " is more used when romantic love is implied . ( As " AI " is the word for romantic love . ) If Hino had the intention to prove Yuuki now sees and loves Zero as a man . Hino could had used a more specific phrase / word as "AISHITERU " ' the usual words in Japanese for " I love you " or a similar word with the word " AI " on it .

But this time I want to see people opinion . Give your reasons why to use the " I love him " version instead of the " I like him / Fondness " one .

On the page where she says she loves him, read the bottom of the bottom left panel, the translator explains her/him self why he/she used it.

mariangie wrote:But this time I want to see people opinion . Give your reasons why to use the " I love him " version instead of the " I like him / Fondness " one .

What do you mean? Our reasons, or translation teams' reason?

http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/87/40

It's true, as @RIchard says, we can read here that "Suki can mean like or love, but the scene in context is romantic, hence "love" is used instead of "like", with either word the implication is romantic". @mariangie, this seems to be a good counter-argument from the translator, that is, for him/her Suki is totally a romantic word, while you are stating the opposite.
That's clearly not the opinion of other translation teams, that translated the word with "Fondness" or "Cherish". So, we have two options:

- Hino willingly used an ambiguous word, so that this may be the true start of Yuuki's change of mind (that will require a lot of chapters, due to the BUT in the end of the sentence
- Each translation team took the freedom to translate the word according to how they interpreted the scene - still, if "Suki" means "Like" in the exact Japanese sentence, you have to translate it with "like" for now, even if the two of them are embracing. Because, please - you have to rely upon sintax, not upon what's happening =_= how can you foresee what's really going to happen and if she really had romantic intentions?

I'm asking to a friend who knows Japanese and knows nothing about VK. He's telling me that in that very sentence "Suki" doesn't seem to have any romantic implication, even though he says that Japanese is based upon a lot od shades. Still, one team decided to give an exact opposite opinion. Why?

I'd like to know what is the Japanese word that Yuuki has been using to describe his feelings for Zero until now (in the first arc there is more than one scene in which she says she cherishes him) and, if the word was really "SUKI", why a simple embrace should change abruptly her meaning.

Duskola wrote: I'm asking to a friend who knows Japanese and knows nothing about VK. He's telling me that in that very sentence "Suki" doesn't seem to have any romantic implication, even though he says that Japanese is based upon a lot od shades. Still, one team decided to give an exact opposite opinion. Why?

I’m not gonna comment on the work of the scanlation’s teams – either way its known that the scanlations online contain mistakes and this is natural and expected, and secondly I do not know Japanese- but what everyone has to know is that the team which decided to interpret the scene and use the word “love” is a group of known, active in forums, Zekis’ fans.

Another thing that one can consider is that all the other sources (the Chinese translation, Senby’s first translation, plus S2s group) have used words which the interpretation of the scene i.e. if it has romantic implications or not, is left to the reader.

Interpreting a scene in an absolute way i.e. guiding the reader the moment that the script itself inserts the uncertainty (>>f.e. if they kissed or not is open or the phrase “But I…”) I do not know how much professional it is or one can at least question the objectivity since is based on an interpretation…

As far as I know the word “suki” doesn’t indicate romance necessarily… so even in this case IMO someone must know the continuation in order to draw absolute conclusions.

The good thing is that we have multiple sources for the translation hence we’re able to compare and choose; at least until the official one will be available.

Anyone can draw its own conclusions…

@nina:
I was commenting the very same thing with my friend in this very moment - he knows but the very first chapters of VK - and even though he admits that it's very hard to translate some words without contextualizing, he told me that Japanese are really "shy" when it comes to express their own feelings. So, he told me that if Yuuki has always expressed her love for Kaname with words like "AISHITERU" or similar for so many chapters, it's very out of context to state that "SUKI" means here something more than affection - it may at least mean "liking more than a friend", "liking very much", "have a crush", but nothing more.

Interpreting a scene in an absolute way i.e. guiding the reader the moment that the script itself inserts the uncertainty (>>f.e. if they kissed or not is open or the phrase “But I…”) I do not know how much professional it is or one can at least question the objectivity since is based on an interpretation…

Yes, and this is why I was absolutely shocked when I read the note. I mean, something like:

"SUKI may mean both like and love - it's usually used without romantic meaning, but it can gain this meaning in some context, so I'm not sure about how it can be correctly translated here"

and translating the sentence with "I LIKE HIM" would have been far more honest. How can you translate a sentence out of the context of the story only because you see the two of them embracing? Like it's the first time Yuuki talks about her feelings, and embraces Zero, and the first time Zero KISSES her... And I guess that going back to the past panels, Yuuki used the word SUKI there, too. So, the translation here is different simply because they are dancing and embracing? Oh my.

but what everyone has to know is that the team which decided to interpret the scene and use the word “love” is a group of known, active in forums, Zekis’ fans

I had suspected this myself, as it's not the first time the translations made by this group are different and raised me some doubts - because they are sometimes totally different, in sense and logic, from the translations found elsewhere - AND obviously from the official translations. And I'm with you totally:

Interpreting a scene in an absolute way i.e. guiding the reader the moment that the script itself inserts the uncertainty (>>f.e. if they kissed or not is open or the phrase “But I…”) I do not know how much professional it is or one can at least question the objectivity since is based on an interpretation…

Because the note not only gives a completely personal interpretation of the scene, but states clarily that every meaning of the word SUKI in Japanese is romantic >> "with either word - like or love - the implication is romantic" here

O_______________________________O

But my friend - that collaborates with some fansub forums for Japanese dramas - is also saying that this kind of behavior is common between translation teams - it's very difficult to find totally objective translators.



EDIT: In any case. If you translate SUKI with LOVE and are absolutely sure, why feeling the need to write a note to state "I translated this with love and I'm sure we're talking about love here"? Is he/she afraid of other Japanese-expert readers and translators? If he/she was so sure, he/she could simply avoid the note.

You took the note in the wrong way, they were not saying that the word it's self is only meant as romantic, what they are saying is the context of the word in that situation is romantic, mainly yuuki and zero kissing each other is what makes it mean romantic, in a situation like this no matter what word you use will imply the same thing rather it be love/like/cherish and so on.

As fir why they would add it, cause they knew it could be taken in different context so they explained before why they chose the context they did. I don't speak or read Japanese my self but from what I hear it is a hard language and the meaning of a word can change depending on the other words around it or in the context it is used to describe. Then again all this is 2nd hand knowledge so I cant say for sure my self.

Talk to your friend again and describe to him that the scene the text involves the man and the women kissing then ask him what it means, I am sure he will give you a different answer. You should never go on words alone when there are pictures to back it up.

Any phrase you use can have it's meanings changed when added to the right imagery.

the feeling is romantic.i am definitely not getting any siblings vibes here.you don't kiss your brother if your feelings are siblings type.so sibling thing was never there.if she thinks him as a friend and then she is kissing him then she definitely don't deserve any of these guys.so only thing left is romantic love for zero.

i think hino is trying to say that true love remains same even if it goes far away from you like yuuki left with kaname but it didn't erased their feelings and now when they reunited they are all ready to loose to their passions.the only victim here is kaname.kaname saw in her bloodt his passion and decided to let himself get killed by yuuki so that he doesn't become an obstacle in zeki.


this is the only explanation i am getting with this stupid chapter.

juliet wrote:

also if zero was her hero from beginning for her useless heroine yuuki,then i must say hino has no writing skills.i can say stephanie meyer proved herself better.atleast in twilight,we are sure of character's feelings.here one day oh zero,next day oh kaname,other day i want to be alone,another day its again oh kaname.to be frank it has become sick for both fandoms.and there are characters which are doing nothing but sitting and having tea.where is seiren?why yuuki didn't asked her about kaname's plans?why aidou don't ask rukain for the reason of dono's death?
so many cheap plot holes.

that right now exist without reason, i agree...all secondary characters are back now, they should be asked "what's the deal? what's the game"? that way a normal character looking for answer, perhaps Zero, not Yuuki alone would progress.

To not risk her surprise Hino could perhaps not show the answers but the progress should be obvious.

The lack of these answers or lack of effort to get them, makes the plot seem unnatural and very technically plotted to keep readers in the dark. The same as the trolling plan; a set up device more than a real necessity of development of feelings;

these gaps exists in the plot irrelevant to the end. Hino should have progressed smoother by now..

@ Lucy have you doubled posted? i need to erase the one answer...please avoid doing so...

this is my comp playing with me.sry i will keep that in mind.

lucykaede wrote:

juliet wrote:

also if zero was her hero from beginning for her useless heroine yuuki,then i must say hino has no writing skills.i can say stephanie meyer proved herself better.atleast in twilight,we are sure of character's feelings.here one day oh zero,next day oh kaname,other day i want to be alone,another day its again oh kaname.to be frank it has become sick for both fandoms.and there are characters which are doing nothing but sitting and having tea.where is seiren?why yuuki didn't asked her about kaname's plans?why aidou don't ask rukain for the reason of dono's death?
so many cheap plot holes.

that right now exist without reason, i agree...all secondary characters are back now, they should be asked "what's the deal? what's the game"? that way a normal character looking for answer, perhaps Zero, not Yuuki alone would progress.

To not risk her surprise Hino could perhaps not show the answers but the progress should be obvious.

The lack of these answers or lack of effort to get them, makes the plot seem unnatural and very technically plotted to keep readers in the dark. The same as the trolling plan; a set up device more than a real necessity of development of feelings;

these gaps exists in the plot irrelevant to the end. Hino should have progressed smoother by now..

@ Lucy have you doubled posted? i need to erase the one answer...please avoid doing so...

yes exactly.all secondary characters are back and they are just sitting there doing nothing.if yuuki makes an army then it will be easy to stop or kill whatever she wants to do.i am very much disappointed by the development and sudden development of zeki.yuuki grew love feelings for zero in one chapter.even bella took three books to discover that.i guess yuuki has grown very intelligent in discovering her feelings.lol.

@okay my mistake, i am in hurry and totally confused the threads...

can you please re-write it to the correct thread? I shall return to erase it later...thanks.

juliet wrote:

lucykaede wrote:

juliet wrote:

that right now exist without reason, i agree...all secondary characters are back now, they should be asked "what's the deal? what's the game"? that way a normal character looking for answer, perhaps Zero, not Yuuki alone would progress.

To not risk her surprise Hino could perhaps not show the answers but the progress should be obvious.

The lack of these answers or lack of effort to get them, makes the plot seem unnatural and very technically plotted to keep readers in the dark. The same as the trolling plan; a set up device more than a real necessity of development of feelings;

these gaps exists in the plot irrelevant to the end. Hino should have progressed smoother by now..

@ Lucy have you doubled posted? i need to erase the one answer...please avoid doing so...

yes exactly.all secondary characters are back and they are just sitting there doing nothing.if yuuki makes an army then it will be easy to stop or kill whatever she wants to do.i am very much disappointed by the development and sudden development of zeki.yuuki grew love feelings for zero in one chapter.even bella took three books to discover that.i guess yuuki has grown very intelligent in discovering her feelings.lol.

@okay my mistake, i am in hurry and totally confused the threads...

can you please re-write it to the correct thread? I shall return to erase it later...thanks.

sry i got confused in threads.my mistake.forgive me.

RIchard wrote:You took the note in the wrong way, they were not saying that the word it's self is only meant as romantic, what they are saying is the context of the word in that situation is romantic, mainly yuuki and zero kissing each other is what makes it mean romantic, in a situation like this no matter what word you use will imply the same thing rather it be love/like/cherish and so on.

As fir why they would add it, cause they knew it could be taken in different context so they explained before why they chose the context they did. I don't speak or read Japanese my self but from what I hear it is a hard language and the meaning of a word can change depending on the other words around it or in the context it is used to describe. Then again all this is 2nd hand knowledge so I cant say for sure my self.

Talk to your friend again and describe to him that the scene the text involves the man and the women kissing then ask him what it means, I am sure he will give you a different answer. You should never go on words alone when there are pictures to back it up.

Any phrase you use can have it's meanings changed when added to the right imagery.

RIchard, you are right when you say that Japanese is a hard language with any sort of different shades in a single sentence, and that's exactly what my friend said when I wrote him the whole kanji sequence. That's why, after his first "non-romantic" interpretation, I explained him the whole scene and plot (spoilering a bit) and he didn't take back his interpretation, he only added that the sentence may be at least ambiguous. So, for him, the note is too "sure" and "absolute", even if it simply tries and contextualize a translation. I mean: we haven't seen her lips touching yet (as we have seen for Yume in lot of ways elsewhere). We still don't know the following words of "BUT...". Why the other translation teams, for example, didn't feel the need to state the opposite?

"Suki can be used in this context to express some romantic feelings, but we chose to translate this with "cherish" or "fondness" in any case".

If there truly is a matter of ambiguity in the sentence - you are right, we don't know Japanese, but this matter is very important and should be explained in every translation.

And on top of that, translating this with "like" doesn't mean at all that Yuuki's feelings are not beginning to change or that the scene is less "romantic", so I can't understand the forcing. If I was a Zeki, I would have preferred the "like" because it's more consistent both with the sintax and the current plot - and here is the reference to Japanese culture my friend gave me. He asked me what words did Yuuki use to express her feelings for Kaname before, because if she truly used words with "AI", above all "AISHITERU", it's very hard that Hino could take them back with a simple "SUKI" because in Japanese culture is very hard to express one's feelings without being polite - with absolute open words. AND taking them back after a single chapter in which Yuuki said "I belong to Kaname" is absolutely out of discussion. So, Hino would not build only a frivolous character, but also a girl completely out from the habits of Japanese culture.

So, as you say, even in Japanese sintax everything is still open

I remember Aidou telling Kaname that he liked "suki" him when they were kids.

Fine of Fate wrote:I remember Aidou telling Kaname that he liked "suki" him when they were kids.

haha naughty Aido...LOL

@ Lucy i will refrain from erasing the posts since the discussion progresses and since we sorted it out (i hate deleting posts anyway, sorry for the trouble caused...)

juliet wrote:

Fine of Fate wrote:I remember Aidou telling Kaname that he liked "suki" him when they were kids.

haha naughty Aido...LOL

@ Lucy i will refrain from erasing the posts since the discussion progresses and since we sorted it out (i hate deleting posts anyway, sorry for the trouble caused...)

don't be sry at all,you are moderator.you know better which things to be allowed and which to be not.

Oh, well. I don't believe I'm doing this for real. But I went and looked for some explanation on Google so that I can state better what my friend wanted to mean.

http://japanese.about.com/library/weekly/aa021101a.htm

Here you can read exactly the reason why, if Yuuki has ever referred to kaname with "Aishiteru" or "Ai" - that is, "love" - is very hard for her to take back those words.

AND here is stated, too, that Japanese usually don't put their feelings into words, but, if they want to use SUKI to express love, they use:

好きです Suki desu
好きだ Suki da
好きだよ Suki dayo (male speech)
好きよ Suki yo (female speech)

"If you like somebody or something very much, "dai (literally means, big)" can be added as the prefix, and you can say "daisuki desu 大好きです."

So, it seems to me that we have only one word in the sentence: "好き" , with no prefixes and suffixes (please correct me @mariangie if I'm wrong - I'm fond of Japanese culture and language but I'm absolutely not an expert, especially as regards the language).
And as @Fine of Fate stated out, Aido refers to Kaname with "好き", too?

Anyone who can tell me if Yuuki ever used:

愛
愛しています
愛してる

and so on?

Duskola wrote:And on top of that, translating this with "like" doesn't mean at all that Yuuki's feelings are not beginning to change or that the scene is less "romantic", so I can't understand the forcing. If I was a Zeki, I would have preferred the "like" because it's more consistent both with the sintax and the current plot - and here is the reference to Japanese culture my friend gave me. He asked me what words did Yuuki use to express her feelings for Kaname before, because if she truly used words with "AI", above all "AISHITERU", it's very hard that Hino could take them back with a simple "SUKI" because in Japanese culture is very hard to express one's feelings without being polite - with absolute open words. AND taking them back after a single chapter in which Yuuki said "I belong to Kaname" is absolutely out of discussion. So, Hino would not build only a frivolous character, but also a girl completely out from the habits of Japanese culture.

So, as you say, even in Japanese sintax everything is still open

I found a page on yahoo answers saying that ai even thought does mean love is rarly used in japan and instead it is common practice to use suki dasu, I would post the link but I cant cause it hasn't been 7 days yet.

This just confuses me more and more, no one is going to accepting yuukis feelings for 1 side or the other till she ties one of them to a bed.

This is the problem with reading a story wrote in another language, not every thing can be transferred over.