Does Zero feel Rejected?

Nina wrote:

Anelliez wrote: But that is where zeki and yume (mostly) is diffrent. The fans of each fandom interpretate situations differently.
AS this scene apparently tells you that yuuki wants him toback off, it seems to ma as romantic tension.

For me that’s quite sad cuz apparently we can’t agree not even to obvious scenes.

But from what I see you haven’t explained WHAT; was the reason that cause Zero’s move … He was happy about Yuuki’s response? He received it as a hint that she loves him thus and the “romantic tension”??? Did Yuuki perceived Zero’s words as a hint for his love? What???

Ofc everyone entitles to its OWN opinion but really I can’t see from where it stems your interpretation and let aside Yuuki’s facial expressions … Could you support your opinion based on Yuuki’s and Zero’s wording? Maybe I’ll be able to understand your view …

nina wrote:

You are talking about “circumstances” … MY POV is that all of these are plain excuses because as I said in my previous post the same circumstances applied for Yuuki and Kaname when she was a human and he a PB and even worse if you ask me, cuz for a human girl to love a PB was a taboo >> in order to be together Yuuki should be turned into a vampire. Neither the different lifespan was a factor to change her feelings for him. Yuuki became Kaname’s lover while being human.

Moreover since as we saw the society (hunters and vampires) do not consider their bond as a taboo. Why they let “circumstances” define their love? Why Yuuki didn’t let the “circumstances” define her love for the PB Kaname?

My opinion is that all these excuses/arguments about circumstances which prevent Zeki love from blooming reinforce more Yume cuz it shown that where true love exists always blooms no matter what the circumstances are ^^.

I was 100% sure that this would be your answer as a proof about Yuuki’s “romantic” feelings for Zero. In my opinion this is the very proof of how weak and poor are the hints about Zeki love.
If I want I can bring plenty of crystal clear proofs for Yume love and are so many that I have to search the whole story to gather them. On the other hand I keep receiving the same answer from Zekis over and over again about an old ambiguous scene which can be explained with more than one ways. But I’m not going there cuz I have the answer from Yuuki’s mouth >>

- About the one part of her heart >> “selfish and terrible things” (chapter 73)
- “I had used my fangs to bite a person whom I had NEVER intended to WISH FOR HIS BLOOD.” (chapter 74.)

So if her wording about her attachment to Zero had the meaning that she wanted his blood also because she thought about him romantically then why she said recently that she NEVER intended to WISH for his blood? Shouldn’t she know that she was yearning for his blood all this time? Hence my interpretation is that Yuuki never craved for his blood as a lover.

And in the last chapter … Rido’s words “a flower that blooms ONLY for YOU” is a clue about how Kaname thinks for Yuuki’s feelings for him despite the whole attachment thing.

Yes Yuuki doesn’t want to spend the eternity alone. This is a fear that almost all the PBs have cuz of their immortality.
But for me this is a whole different issue than a factor that she chose Kaname for this. She said yes to his question if she wants to turn her into a vampire in order to live by his side. In fact she was yearning to hear these words. I think we all know what that would have meant for Zero … Even if she didn’t know about his feelings she knew that with her affirmative answer she has chosen Kaname over her relationship with Zero …

So her choice was always Kaname regardless the circumstances and the obstacles. That’s why I don’t accept the lifespan as a factor and that’s why I dismiss all the excuses why Zeki didn’t confirmed yet as romantic couple. There were plenty of ways for us to know for CERTAIN that Yuuki harbors romantic feelings for Zero too but since isn’t the case, at least thus far, for me this signifies something.

Mmm … I think Zero’s reaction has narrowed the amount of interpretations and IMO Yuuki’s wording hasn’t left any space at least about where she still stands.
I’m not saying though that she is happy from Kaname’s message cuz apparently was upsetting. Except if she knows or understands something that we don’t know yet. But not because she consider herself as a piece but because Kaname with his actions and words has put himself in a very bad position. As she told to Takuma >> “what’s pissing me off and annoying me is that he seems like he won’t care even if he is suspected by the whole world.” >> and Kaname just confirmed that.

I thought it was clear by now that Kaname set her free to make her own decisions. Don’t blame Kaname if Yuuki’s decision despite everything is still the same … to stand to his side …
It was Yuuki’s choice to be his equal … Kaname never said that she isn’t enough for him. It was her inferiority complex due to her past as a human not Kaname’s stance that made her feel this way. So maybe now it’s her chance to prove to him that she’s not so fragile and to prove to herself that she is his equal the way SHE wanted to. XD

Anelliezz wrote: About his intention, I'm considering this move as an almost unvoluntary reaction. He seems to doubt between acceptance or not, but here his first reaction is acceptance. (as I mentioned, supported by the touching)I don't consider it as a completely deliberate move (well he choose it, but before thinking much), so I also don't see an intention as ex.hitting on her, convincing her,.... What I see here is his (subconcious) will to still be in touch with her (like talking to her and such). Even though he's still avoiding it. (all this ofcourse comes from the vieuw that he still loves her.)

I guess his first reaction was say something (good), but it showed to much of his emotions, so he backed off.

I think I should compare this to another similar situation, from an other series or sth, but can't think of one right now( maybe you watch vampire diaries?

As for proof off pages, I could show in latest chapters that it had always been yuuki wanting to move closer, but I guess you've noticed , and I already mentioned the 'don't touch me'part.

- The romantic part, I don't see it coming from what he or she is doing but just the moment itself

- For Yuuki, well facial expression aren't the most throwtworthy things, but she seemed to blush. That's supposed to be a good sign to sudden closeness.

Kara wrote: Personally,
I didn't think that the scene was really about romantic tension at all. I thought it had to do with bloodlust.

Because of the two horizontal panels where Yuuki passes by Zero:

https://2img.net/r/ihimg/photo/my-images/850/picture1rp.png/

As Yuuki walks by, the slight breeze caused by that motion gently lifts her hair up and wisps of her hair past right by Zero's face. That breeze would have blown Yuuki's scent directly toward Zero, no? That's what I'm supposing, since you can just see Zero's lips part as she brushes past. We all know that Zero is level D and that his bloodlust has been increasing.

She's stil trying to repair her relationship with him so she gives him a smile that looks just a tad forced, but you can tell she's still a little bit concerned. Yuuki pointedly looking down at her arm to me seemed like she was silently reprimanding him for slipping, and to get him to realize what he's doing or to loosen his grip or let go.

nina wrote:

Amaran wrote: To nina:
Zero asked Yuuki if she was rid of all of her worries and fears. He never said that if she said “yes” he was going to leave her and they will become enemies.

Sorry but I’m a bit confused … maybe you didn’t understand my point or I don’t get your point here haha. Let me just rephrase …

Some fans (not me) have supported that Zero’s question about Yuuki’s fears was one last attempt from his part to approach her and IF Yuuki had respond differently perhaps their relationship would have been different. It’s not my belief cuz I think that Zero had no such intention/hope … For me all his moves and words were his goodbye to her.

But IF this was his intention (to give Yuuki an opportunity to say that she still needed him by her side) obviously it didn’t work cuz she said that she was all right. In that case was a rejection …

Yuuki replied in the affirmative because it was the truth. Like you said, Yuuki doesn't want to become enemies with Zero. If there was a way for them to stay together she would probably try it. But, that scene she expressed a lot of helplessness. The way she described it in 68 sums its up nicely: “I can remember a parting in which I had no choice, embracing a reason I could do nothing about.”

I agree. Yuuki had no choice to maintain their friendship cuz what pained Yuuki mostly was that she couldn’t have him into her life like before because of his declaration of war.
Yuuki: “I don’t want to be your enemy … was this the only way?” >> so clearly she is referring to the enemies status >> that wasn’t her choice but Zero’s.

So, it is not a true rejection since Yuuki said first that all she could think about was Kaname's blood and then Zero confessed his feelings of only wanting her blood.

I think that who said it first has no meaning. The point is that both of them used the same way to express feelings there. Since Zero was confessing his love for her by saying “I wanted only your blood” right after Yuuki had said that she wants only Kaname’s blood is clear that she had rejected his feelings, or if you like Zero felt rejected … the key word is the “only” so who said it first it doesn’t change anything. Zero was in love with her and she was in love with someone else >> rejection.

Yuuki didn't even process the fact that Zero loved her until a while after they parted. And then all she could think about was her being a vampire and that Zero hates vampires. She is not thinking about her own feelings for Zero or for Kaname, only about the circumstances that they are in and the places where they belong.

Ok Yuuki is a bit slow haha … we all know that. But I can’t believe that when Zero said that he craves only for her blood and kissed her she didn’t realize that this was a confession lol. The problem here is, as I said above, that Yuuki’s main concern was that they became enemies plus Zero’s condition (level-e thing). What processes later when she’s crying alone is that Zero had all along these feelings >> “always he was?” >> and she thinks his attempt to kiss her before.

But either way, even if she realized it a few minutes later couldn’t she turn back and answer to Zero’s confession if she wanted?

You are talking about “circumstances” … MY POV is that all of these are plain excuses because as I said in my previous post the same circumstances applied for Yuuki and Kaname when she was a human and he a PB and even worse if you ask me, cuz for a human girl to love a PB was a taboo >> in order to be together Yuuki should be turned into a vampire. Neither the different lifespan was a factor to change her feelings for him. Yuuki became Kaname’s lover while being human.

So all I’m saying is why the circumstances/obstacles are apply ONLY for Zeki? Moreover since as we saw the society (hunters and vampires) do not consider their bond as a taboo. Why they let “circumstances” define their love? Why Yuuki didn’t let the “circumstances” define her love for the PB Kaname?

My opinion is that all these excuses/arguments about circumstances which prevent Zeki love from blooming reinforce more Yume cuz it shown that where true love exists always blooms no matter what the circumstances are ^^.

Yuuki did admit her feelings for Zero in 51, a part of her heart is attached to him. It is romantic otherwise she would not feel obligated to tell Kaname, with the fear that he would reject her.

I was 100% sure that this would be your answer as a proof about Yuuki’s “romantic” feelings for Zero. In my opinion this is the very proof of how weak and poor are the hints about Zeki love.
If I want I can bring plenty of crystal clear proofs for Yume love and are so many that I have to search the whole story to gather them. On the other hand I keep receiving the same answer from Zekis over and over again about an old ambiguous scene which can be explained with more than one ways. But I’m not going there cuz I have the answer from Yuuki’s mouth >>

- About the one part of her heart >> “selfish and terrible things” (chapter 73)
- “I had used my fangs to bite a person whom I had NEVER intended to WISH FOR HIS BLOOD.” (chapter 74.)

So if her wording about her attachment to Zero had the meaning that she wanted his blood also because she thought about him romantically then why she said recently that she NEVER intended to WISH for his blood? Shouldn’t she know that she was yearning for his blood all this time? Hence my interpretation is that Yuuki never craved for his blood as a lover.

And in the last chapter … Rido’s words “a flower that blooms ONLY for YOU” is a clue about how Kaname thinks for Yuuki’s feelings for him despite the whole attachment thing.

I know that Yuuki had feelings for Kaname long before she knew she was a pureblood but the eternity issue is still a factor (however small it is) in her decision to stay with him since she admits that she is afraid to be alone and so wants someone near her.

Yes Yuuki doesn’t want to spend the eternity alone. This is a fear that almost all the PBs have cuz of their immortality.
But for me this is a whole different issue than a factor that she chose Kaname for this. She said yes to his question if she wants to turn her into a vampire in order to live by his side. In fact she was yearning to hear these words. I think we all know what that would have meant for Zero … Even if she didn’t know about his feelings she knew that with her affirmative answer she has chosen Kaname over her relationship with Zero …

So her choice was always Kaname regardless the circumstances and the obstacles. That’s why I don’t accept the lifespan as a factor and that’s why I dismiss all the excuses why Zeki didn’t confirmed yet as romantic couple. There were plenty of ways for us to know for CERTAIN that Yuuki harbors romantic feelings for Zero too but since isn’t the case, at least thus far, for me this signifies something.

The scene about Yuuki's declaration to Zero can have many interpretations so I wanted to hear someone else's opinion on it.

Mmm … I think Zero’s reaction has narrowed the amount of interpretations and IMO Yuuki’s wording hasn’t left any space at least about where she still stands.
I’m not saying though that she is happy from Kaname’s message cuz apparently was upsetting. Except if she knows or understands something that we don’t know yet. But not because she consider herself as a piece but because Kaname with his actions and words has put himself in a very bad position. As she told to Takuma >> “what’s pissing me off and annoying me is that he seems like he won’t care even if he is suspected by the whole world.” >> and Kaname just confirmed that.
The point though is her choice to be his ally … ^^

What rubbed me the wrong way was Yuuki referring to herself as a chess piece “in Kaname's hands.” She should be his partner in the decision-making, not someone who will follow (albeit willingingly) in his path despite not knowing his reasons. I can see your point of view in that it is because she believes in him that much. But for me, I think a relationship will work if both parties will discuss with each other their ideas and decisions and work through them together.

That’s why I said that we don’t even know which was the purpose of Kaname’s message and I mean his intention. We only have a clue of how Yuuki perceived it. If you ask me Kaname wants Yuuki away from his plans thus he was glad that Kaien had her into the academy. Kaname’s first priority is Yuuki’s safety. But ofc she is a piece into the wide chessboard not Kaname’s because many things that currently happening revolves around her existence …

Thus far all the secrets he kept from her were because he couldn’t reveal them at least not before the right time such as he couldn’t tell her about her past. I think he has a good reason currently for what he is doing keeping Yuuki away, something that tearing him apart though as it’s hinted from his nightmare. He is protective over Yuuki maybe overprotective but the same applied for Zero too at least in the past.

So I think is unfair for Kaname to be accused that he considers Yuuki as a piece/pawn who is unworthy to discuss with her his plans. At least not before we know why he is doing all that and from what he is trying to protect her.

I thought it was clear by now that Kaname set her free to make her own decisions. Don’t blame Kaname if Yuuki’s decision despite everything is still the same … to stand to his side …
It was Yuuki’s choice to be his equal … Kaname never said that she isn’t enough for him. It was her inferiority complex due to her past as a human not Kaname’s stance that made her feel this way. So maybe now it’s her chance to prove to him that she’s not so fragile and to prove to herself that she is his equal the way SHE wanted to. XD

Oh and also I agree with your thoughts on the hunters. They are thinking about manipulating Zero and Yuuki because of the power and influence they have, and the potential their relationship to each other can bring.

Mmm … I think from the available translation the hunters do not want to use the potential Zeki relationship for what it can bring (i.e. as a sign of coexistence for example … if you meant something like that) but to efforce Yuuki to fight with her artemis by their side using maybe Zero … and we know that their intentions/plans are not so pure or pro-coexistence so in my opinion this isn’t something good for Zeki’s potentiality but bad …

PS. I think we have gone off topic again and wasn’t my intention to discuss here Yume relationship but somehow every time the conversation goes there. If you want to continue this maybe it would be better to do it in a more proper thread. Thank you too for the civilized exchange of views. XD.

Kara wrote:Personally,
I didn't think that the scene was really about romantic tension at all. I thought it had to do with bloodlust.

Because of the two horizontal panels where Yuuki passes by Zero:

https://2img.net/r/ihimg/photo/my-images/850/picture1rp.png/

As Yuuki walks by, the slight breeze caused by that motion gently lifts her hair up and wisps of her hair past right by Zero's face. That breeze would have blown Yuuki's scent directly toward Zero, no? That's what I'm supposing, since you can just see Zero's lips part as she brushes past. We all know that Zero is level D and that his bloodlust has been increasing.

Nina, I agree with you that despite her smile, Yuuki did look a little tense there since she did look a little worried when he grabbed her. The whole scene seemed quite uncomfortable. Zero has scolded her so many times for touching him even in the most casual way during the first arch, so him actually reaching out to her was quite rare (sometimes when something was wrong or troubling him). But in this scene he's obviously gripping her arm quite tightly, vise-like even. The only times Zero has grabbed her like that are when he's lost control in some way or another. She's stil trying to repair her relationship with him so she gives him a smile that looks just a tad forced, but you can tell she's still a little bit concerned. Yuuki pointedly looking down at her arm to me seemed like she was silently reprimanding him for slipping, and to get him to realize what he's doing or to loosen his grip or let go.

Hino has actually stated in an interview that bloodlust and biting were sort of approximated to a show of affection or kiss (like how when Kaname bites Yuuki Hino admitted that there was a romantic aspect to it). And, of course, that you lust after the blood of the one you love. That aside, I don't actually see any outright romantic tension here.

All Zero / Yuuki scenes are tense, and I think some do have at least some aspect that could be interpreted as romantic tension. But I don't think this scene is one of them, that's all. Just a bout of bloodlust and slight loss of control on Zero's part, which I think Hino is doing to make us see how his calm and controlled facade is slowing starting to crack.

The bond between Zero and Yuuki IS improving, but I still think that Zero and Yuuki have a ways to go to repair their relationship, since Zero is still far more withdrawn towards Yuuki than she is to him.

Bloodredhead wrote:

nina wrote:

Amaran wrote: To nina:
Zero asked Yuuki if she was rid of all of her worries and fears. He never said that if she said “yes” he was going to leave her and they will become enemies.

Sorry but I’m a bit confused … maybe you didn’t understand my point or I don’t get your point here haha. Let me just rephrase …

Some fans (not me) have supported that Zero’s question about Yuuki’s fears was one last attempt from his part to approach her and IF Yuuki had respond differently perhaps their relationship would have been different. It’s not my belief cuz I think that Zero had no such intention/hope … For me all his moves and words were his goodbye to her.

But IF this was his intention (to give Yuuki an opportunity to say that she still needed him by her side) obviously it didn’t work cuz she said that she was all right. In that case was a rejection …

Yuuki replied in the affirmative because it was the truth. Like you said, Yuuki doesn't want to become enemies with Zero. If there was a way for them to stay together she would probably try it. But, that scene she expressed a lot of helplessness. The way she described it in 68 sums its up nicely: “I can remember a parting in which I had no choice, embracing a reason I could do nothing about.”

I agree. Yuuki had no choice to maintain their friendship cuz what pained Yuuki mostly was that she couldn’t have him into her life like before because of his declaration of war.
Yuuki: “I don’t want to be your enemy … was this the only way?” >> so clearly she is referring to the enemies status >> that wasn’t her choice but Zero’s.

So, it is not a true rejection since Yuuki said first that all she could think about was Kaname's blood and then Zero confessed his feelings of only wanting her blood.

I think that who said it first has no meaning. The point is that both of them used the same way to express feelings there. Since Zero was confessing his love for her by saying “I wanted only your blood” right after Yuuki had said that she wants only Kaname’s blood is clear that she had rejected his feelings, or if you like Zero felt rejected … the key word is the “only” so who said it first it doesn’t change anything. Zero was in love with her and she was in love with someone else >> rejection.

Yuuki didn't even process the fact that Zero loved her until a while after they parted. And then all she could think about was her being a vampire and that Zero hates vampires. She is not thinking about her own feelings for Zero or for Kaname, only about the circumstances that they are in and the places where they belong.

Ok Yuuki is a bit slow haha … we all know that. But I can’t believe that when Zero said that he craves only for her blood and kissed her she didn’t realize that this was a confession lol. The problem here is, as I said above, that Yuuki’s main concern was that they became enemies plus Zero’s condition (level-e thing). What processes later when she’s crying alone is that Zero had all along these feelings >> “always he was?” >> and she thinks his attempt to kiss her before.

But either way, even if she realized it a few minutes later couldn’t she turn back and answer to Zero’s confession if she wanted?

You are talking about “circumstances” … MY POV is that all of these are plain excuses because as I said in my previous post the same circumstances applied for Yuuki and Kaname when she was a human and he a PB and even worse if you ask me, cuz for a human girl to love a PB was a taboo >> in order to be together Yuuki should be turned into a vampire. Neither the different lifespan was a factor to change her feelings for him. Yuuki became Kaname’s lover while being human.

So all I’m saying is why the circumstances/obstacles are apply ONLY for Zeki? Moreover since as we saw the society (hunters and vampires) do not consider their bond as a taboo. Why they let “circumstances” define their love? Why Yuuki didn’t let the “circumstances” define her love for the PB Kaname?

My opinion is that all these excuses/arguments about circumstances which prevent Zeki love from blooming reinforce more Yume cuz it shown that where true love exists always blooms no matter what the circumstances are ^^.

Yuuki did admit her feelings for Zero in 51, a part of her heart is attached to him. It is romantic otherwise she would not feel obligated to tell Kaname, with the fear that he would reject her.

I was 100% sure that this would be your answer as a proof about Yuuki’s “romantic” feelings for Zero. In my opinion this is the very proof of how weak and poor are the hints about Zeki love.
If I want I can bring plenty of crystal clear proofs for Yume love and are so many that I have to search the whole story to gather them. On the other hand I keep receiving the same answer from Zekis over and over again about an old ambiguous scene which can be explained with more than one ways. But I’m not going there cuz I have the answer from Yuuki’s mouth >>

- About the one part of her heart >> “selfish and terrible things” (chapter 73)
- “I had used my fangs to bite a person whom I had NEVER intended to WISH FOR HIS BLOOD.” (chapter 74.)

So if her wording about her attachment to Zero had the meaning that she wanted his blood also because she thought about him romantically then why she said recently that she NEVER intended to WISH for his blood? Shouldn’t she know that she was yearning for his blood all this time? Hence my interpretation is that Yuuki never craved for his blood as a lover.

And in the last chapter … Rido’s words “a flower that blooms ONLY for YOU” is a clue about how Kaname thinks for Yuuki’s feelings for him despite the whole attachment thing.

I know that Yuuki had feelings for Kaname long before she knew she was a pureblood but the eternity issue is still a factor (however small it is) in her decision to stay with him since she admits that she is afraid to be alone and so wants someone near her.

Yes Yuuki doesn’t want to spend the eternity alone. This is a fear that almost all the PBs have cuz of their immortality.
But for me this is a whole different issue than a factor that she chose Kaname for this. She said yes to his question if she wants to turn her into a vampire in order to live by his side. In fact she was yearning to hear these words. I think we all know what that would have meant for Zero … Even if she didn’t know about his feelings she knew that with her affirmative answer she has chosen Kaname over her relationship with Zero …

So her choice was always Kaname regardless the circumstances and the obstacles. That’s why I don’t accept the lifespan as a factor and that’s why I dismiss all the excuses why Zeki didn’t confirmed yet as romantic couple. There were plenty of ways for us to know for CERTAIN that Yuuki harbors romantic feelings for Zero too but since isn’t the case, at least thus far, for me this signifies something.

The scene about Yuuki's declaration to Zero can have many interpretations so I wanted to hear someone else's opinion on it.

Mmm … I think Zero’s reaction has narrowed the amount of interpretations and IMO Yuuki’s wording hasn’t left any space at least about where she still stands.
I’m not saying though that she is happy from Kaname’s message cuz apparently was upsetting. Except if she knows or understands something that we don’t know yet. But not because she consider herself as a piece but because Kaname with his actions and words has put himself in a very bad position. As she told to Takuma >> “what’s pissing me off and annoying me is that he seems like he won’t care even if he is suspected by the whole world.” >> and Kaname just confirmed that.
The point though is her choice to be his ally … ^^

What rubbed me the wrong way was Yuuki referring to herself as a chess piece “in Kaname's hands.” She should be his partner in the decision-making, not someone who will follow (albeit willingingly) in his path despite not knowing his reasons. I can see your point of view in that it is because she believes in him that much. But for me, I think a relationship will work if both parties will discuss with each other their ideas and decisions and work through them together.

That’s why I said that we don’t even know which was the purpose of Kaname’s message and I mean his intention. We only have a clue of how Yuuki perceived it. If you ask me Kaname wants Yuuki away from his plans thus he was glad that Kaien had her into the academy. Kaname’s first priority is Yuuki’s safety. But ofc she is a piece into the wide chessboard not Kaname’s because many things that currently happening revolves around her existence …

Thus far all the secrets he kept from her were because he couldn’t reveal them at least not before the right time such as he couldn’t tell her about her past. I think he has a good reason currently for what he is doing keeping Yuuki away, something that tearing him apart though as it’s hinted from his nightmare. He is protective over Yuuki maybe overprotective but the same applied for Zero too at least in the past.

So I think is unfair for Kaname to be accused that he considers Yuuki as a piece/pawn who is unworthy to discuss with her his plans. At least not before we know why he is doing all that and from what he is trying to protect her.

I thought it was clear by now that Kaname set her free to make her own decisions. Don’t blame Kaname if Yuuki’s decision despite everything is still the same … to stand to his side …
It was Yuuki’s choice to be his equal … Kaname never said that she isn’t enough for him. It was her inferiority complex due to her past as a human not Kaname’s stance that made her feel this way. So maybe now it’s her chance to prove to him that she’s not so fragile and to prove to herself that she is his equal the way SHE wanted to. XD

Oh and also I agree with your thoughts on the hunters. They are thinking about manipulating Zero and Yuuki because of the power and influence they have, and the potential their relationship to each other can bring.

Mmm … I think from the available translation the hunters do not want to use the potential Zeki relationship for what it can bring (i.e. as a sign of coexistence for example … if you meant something like that) but to efforce Yuuki to fight with her artemis by their side using maybe Zero … and we know that their intentions/plans are not so pure or pro-coexistence so in my opinion this isn’t something good for Zeki’s potentiality but bad …

PS. I think we have gone off topic again and wasn’t my intention to discuss here Yume relationship but somehow every time the conversation goes there. If you want to continue this maybe it would be better to do it in a more proper thread. Thank you too for the civilized exchange of views. XD.

Thanks Nina for another superb post, i can always bask in Yume goodness when reading your posts, and it always helps me keep firm in my belief of Yume.

Agree with everything (as usual, LOL), especially the part i have highlightened. Whatever the circumstances with Yume have been, their love has always remained and been there. It's a constant love, withstanding everything thrown at it.

Kara wrote:Personally,
I didn't think that the scene was really about romantic tension at all. I thought it had to do with bloodlust.

Because of the two horizontal panels where Yuuki passes by Zero:

https://2img.net/r/ihimg/photo/my-images/850/picture1rp.png/

As Yuuki walks by, the slight breeze caused by that motion gently lifts her hair up and wisps of her hair past right by Zero's face. That breeze would have blown Yuuki's scent directly toward Zero, no? That's what I'm supposing, since you can just see Zero's lips part as she brushes past. We all know that Zero is level D and that his bloodlust has been increasing.

Nina, I agree with you that despite her smile, Yuuki did look a little tense there since she did look a little worried when he grabbed her. The whole scene seemed quite uncomfortable. Zero has scolded her so many times for touching him even in the most casual way during the first arch, so him actually reaching out to her was quite rare (sometimes when something was wrong or troubling him). But in this scene he's obviously gripping her arm quite tightly, vise-like even. The only times Zero has grabbed her like that are when he's lost control in some way or another. She's stil trying to repair her relationship with him so she gives him a smile that looks just a tad forced, but you can tell she's still a little bit concerned. Yuuki pointedly looking down at her arm to me seemed like she was silently reprimanding him for slipping, and to get him to realize what he's doing or to loosen his grip or let go.

Hino has actually stated in an interview that bloodlust and biting were sort of approximated to a show of affection or kiss (like how when Kaname bites Yuuki Hino admitted that there was a romantic aspect to it). And, of course, that you lust after the blood of the one you love. That aside, I don't actually see any outright romantic tension here.

All Zero / Yuuki scenes are tense, and I think some do have at least some aspect that could be interpreted as romantic tension. But I don't think this scene is one of them, that's all. Just a bout of bloodlust and slight loss of control on Zero's part, which I think Hino is doing to make us see how his calm and controlled facade is slowing starting to crack.

The bond between Zero and Yuuki IS improving, but I still think that Zero and Yuuki have a ways to go to repair their relationship, since Zero is still far more withdrawn towards Yuuki than she is to him.

You know i actually missed the wind blowing her hair bit, when yuuki passed Zero, so thanks for pointing it out. I have to agree with your post too about the tension. Yuuki didnt look awed or 'lovey dovey', she seemed tense and shocked Zero had grabbed hold of her. I think yuuki finds it hard to interact with zero at the moment, it seems very awkward between them still, not as much as before but its still there.

nina wrote:Oh my thank you sweet haha *hugs*

Anelliezz wrote: About his intention, I'm considering this move as an almost unvoluntary reaction. He seems to doubt between acceptance or not, but here his first reaction is acceptance. (as I mentioned, supported by the touching)I don't consider it as a completely deliberate move (well he choose it, but before thinking much), so I also don't see an intention as ex.hitting on her, convincing her,.... What I see here is his (subconcious) will to still be in touch with her (like talking to her and such). Even though he's still avoiding it. (all this ofcourse comes from the vieuw that he still loves her.)

Okay I do agree that it was an impulsive move from his part. But what triggers that move; … something from Yuuki’s prior wording must have made him to react.

I guess his first reaction was say something (good), but it showed to much of his emotions, so he backed off.

What were his emotions … he was happy from Yuuki’s reply; annoyed; worried; jealous??? You didn’t answer that so excuse me for insisting…

After Zero told her about Kaname’s message she said that probably Zero thought that she should be fed up with Kaname.
She thanked him for conveying Kaname’s message and said “at least I know he hasn’t forgotten me” (>> not very pleasant words for Zero’s ears I suppose ). That perhaps she is one piece into his chessboard but IF that’s the case then she’ll play that role … she will do what Kaname wants her to do and when finishes she’ll go see him again. And while she walks away Zero grabs her arm … This is the gist and I think it’s similar to another source that it seems you trust and love.

So, what from the above wording triggers Zero’s move? Cuz you’re trying to “analyze” only the act itself or what can bring in the future but IMHO if we don’t take under consideration their prior conversation which led to the act we can’t draw conclusions.

I think I should compare this to another similar situation, from an other series or sth, but can't think of one right now( maybe you watch vampire diaries?

Lol no I don’t watch this series sorry …

As for proof off pages, I could show in latest chapters that it had always been yuuki wanting to move closer, but I guess you've noticed , and I already mentioned the 'don't touch me'part.

Yes … Yuuki has made clear her intention to restore their relationship and with her last response to Zero she drew the line again >> she’s isn’t willing to hear “badmouthing” Kaname (cuz to me Zero seemed very anxious to convey that message to Yuuki), neither to leave the impression that she isn’t on his side.
The “don’t touch me” part comes from Zero … He never had a problem to touch her in the past. But we don’t have to go there … In the previous chapter he touched her head and in chapter 73 he offered his blood. That’s why I’m stunned from the gravity that some of you have put into this scene and I mean about him grabbing her arm … It’s not the first time he grabbed her … it’s not the first time that they interact recently … O___o

- The romantic part, I don't see it coming from what he or she is doing but just the moment itself

Ok I get it … you’re “on a diet” (and I don’t mean only you) from Zeki interactions for so long so now every scene is epic … even if the context of the scene revolves around Kaname haha … That’s understandable …

But if there is no specific reason stemming from their dialogue of why you estimate the scene as “romantic” then I guess is a matter of personal intuition i.e. is baseless. For example someone else could find the previous scene where Zero puts his gun on Yuuki’s temple again extremely hot because likes the “macho” men …

I don’t know if I succeeded to convey what I mean here ><

- For Yuuki, well facial expression aren't the most throwtworthy things, but she seemed to blush. That's supposed to be a good sign to sudden closeness.

Do you know how many times Yuuki has blushed and for plenty of reasons and in front of different people who had nothing to do with romance? So the important element to distinguish the blushes is the reason which causes it and from what I read in their convo there wasn’t any romantic innuendo at least not one that concerns Zeki …

And to be honest … Yuuki had just receive a very upsetting message from the man she loves hence I would find it weird –if not lame- from her part to feel erotic tension just because Zero touched her. I mean the moment wasn’t favorable for such emotions. I don’t see Yuuki so shallow as a character …

Anyway I’m not going further with this cuz I think this kind of arguments are good only for fangirling purposes … and I guess you know what I mean

Kara wrote: Personally,
I didn't think that the scene was really about romantic tension at all. I thought it had to do with bloodlust.

Because of the two horizontal panels where Yuuki passes by Zero:

https://2img.net/r/ihimg/photo/my-images/850/picture1rp.png/

As Yuuki walks by, the slight breeze caused by that motion gently lifts her hair up and wisps of her hair past right by Zero's face. That breeze would have blown Yuuki's scent directly toward Zero, no? That's what I'm supposing, since you can just see Zero's lips part as she brushes past. We all know that Zero is level D and that his bloodlust has been increasing.

Kara yes … that could be also a possible explanation for Zero's impulsive move. And if we insert here Maria’s comment that Zero seems more pale than usual then you might have right on this …

She's stil trying to repair her relationship with him so she gives him a smile that looks just a tad forced, but you can tell she's still a little bit concerned. Yuuki pointedly looking down at her arm to me seemed like she was silently reprimanding him for slipping, and to get him to realize what he's doing or to loosen his grip or let go.

I totally agree with you. Because we can’t cut off only the panel where she smiles but we have to see the scene as a whole.

nina wrote:

Okay I do agree that it was an impulsive move from his part. But what triggers that move; … something from Yuuki’s prior wording must have made him to react.
....
So, what from the above wording triggers Zero’s move? Cuz you’re trying to “analyze” only the act itself or what can bring in the future but IMHO if we don’t take under consideration their prior conversation which led to the act we can’t draw conclusions.

.....
What were his emotions … he was happy from Yuuki’s reply; annoyed; worried; jealous??? You didn’t answer that so excuse me for insisting…

Lol no I don’t watch this series sorry …
....
But if there is no specific reason stemming from their dialogue of why you estimate the scene as “romantic” then I guess is a matter of personal intuition i.e. is baseless. For example someone else could find the previous scene where Zero puts his gun on Yuuki’s temple again extremely hot because likes the “macho” men …

Yes … Yuuki has made clear her intention to restore their relationship and with her last response to Zero she drew the line again >> she’s isn’t willing to hear “badmouthing” Kaname (cuz to me Zero seemed very anxious to convey that message to Yuuki), neither to leave the impression that she isn’t on his side.
The “don’t touch me” part comes from Zero … He never had a problem to touch her in the past. But we don’t have to go there … In the previous chapter he touched her head and in chapter 73 he offered his blood. That’s why I’m stunned from the gravity that some of you have put into this scene and I mean about him grabbing her arm … It’s not the first time he grabbed her … it’s not the first time that they interact recently … O___o

Ok I get it … you’re “on a diet” (and I don’t mean only you) from Zeki interactions for so long so now every scene is epic … even if the context of the scene revolves around Kaname haha … That’s understandable …

Do you know how many times Yuuki has blushed and for plenty of reasons and in front of different people who had nothing to do with romance? So the important element to distinguish the blushes is the reason which causes it and from what I read in their convo there wasn’t any romantic innuendo at least not one that concerns Zeki …

And to be honest … Yuuki had just receive a very upsetting message from the man she loves hence I would find it weird –if not lame- from her part to feel erotic tension just because Zero touched her. I mean the moment wasn’t favorable for such emotions. I don’t see Yuuki so shallow as a character …

Anyway I’m not going further with this cuz I think this kind of arguments are good only for fangirling purposes … and I guess you know what I mean

Annelliez wrote: Not going futher on your last agrument or the discussion. I'm sorry, I'm not quite certain what you mean. Since you asked me to explain further I'm asuming the first but if you'd wish to quit the discussion, no problem ;)
and if it was the other, It is indeed easy: going from arguments to fangirling . *guilty* But I guess it happens to everyonone in a while

nina wrote:Ok I get it were you coming from. We can agree to disagree on the “romantic touch” in the scene XD.

sweetsolace wrote:@anneliez
I understand the danger Zero sees and his need to respond to it, no complaints on that. there are always different ways to interpret a scene

Shiki10 wrote:

Shiki10 wrote:

I don't feel like Zero feels rejected because he certainly hasn't disclosed any romantic feelings towards Yuuki recently. His grimace and grab of her arm is more like "Please, don't go". He simply can't stand the thought of Yuuki going back to Kaname out of his own feelings for her as well as the danger it presents. I don't think Zero was even aware that he still had feelings for her until this chapter. Now, I think we're going to start seeing more Yuuki/Zero action.

Do I think that Zero still loves Yuuki? Absolutely. But, that is conflicted with his hate of what she has become: a pureblood vampire. Zero's love for Yuuki is going to win in the end of that conflict though, and I can see Zero casting aside his hatred for the purebloods in general eventually. He is already starting to cast aside his hate concerning Yuuki, and I think Hino meant to clearly show this through Zero's concern for Yuuki in this chapter.

Do I think that Yuuki loves Zero? Yes. She does. She has shown time and time again her conflicting feelings concerning Kaname and Zero in these recent chapters. For example, in the chapter when Yuuki hid behind the wall as Zero was carrying Maria and when she wondered if Zero still had those feelings for her while laying in bed. While Yuuki does blush a lot, I also believe the blush in this chapter was significant. She didn't even know how to respond to him grabbing her.

The question is who does she love more at this point? We simply don't know. In the earlier chapters, I would have said Kaname, and I was a huge Kaname/Yuuki fan back then. Now, I feel that Kaname has a very dark side tied into his past that has yet to be revealed and Kaname will manipulate anyone, including Yuuki, to achieve his goals. He is a very secretive character, but I think that his love for Yuuki is real. However, whether or not Kaname is willing to sacrifice that love to achieve his goals, we don't yet know.

No matter who Yuuki loves the most, I think that we're going to see a Yuuki/Zero ending. For some reason, I don't feel that Kaname is going to make it out of this story alive. He may even end up sacrificing himself for Yuuki. This is one of those mangas that could have a very sad and dark ending.

She should be another chessplayer fighting alongside Kaname outside of the board. If Yuuki can prove that she is his equal then that would be great and I would not be so against their relationship. But if Yuuki is going to keep seeing herself as a chesspiece and Kaname the player, then I'm going to keep seeing that gap in their relationship and it just won't work in my opinion.

nina wrote:@caela … you know, you and a few others were fangirling over the “assumption” that Kaname manipulating the whole situation in order to pass Yuuki to Zero while you’re trying to degrade him saying that he treats Yuuki like a piece into his game …

I suppose that in the first option he is a "good manipulator" cuz materializing your “dreams” for Zeki and you don’t mind if something like that makes Yuuki an object, whereas when Yuuki by her OWN FREE WILL DECIDES to stand by his side, Kaname is a "bad manipulator"…

That’s sounds very bitter to me if not something else … but I’ll let the fans to draw their own conclusions…

PS. And here one case where Yuuki FROWNING and BLUSHING because Aido tries to stop her
http://www.mangareader.net/104-37352-24/vampire-knight/chapter-55.html

caela wrote:
Also, treating people like chess pieces is not a way to treat a fiancee (If this is what Kaname is doing). Its not bitterness, its common courtesy. I don't walk around thinking about how to use people. Kaname knows how much Yuuki loves him. All he would have to do is ask her to do it. Racism is bad, and so is this.

caela wrote: Also, treating people like chess pieces is not a way to treat a fiancee (If this is what Kaname is doing). Its not bitterness, its common courtesy. I don't walk around thinking about how to use people. Kaname knows how much Yuuki loves him.

All he would have to do is ask her to do it. Racism is bad, and so is this.

The example you gave of Yuuki frowning and blushing was also a high stress/high emotion moment of helplessness for Yuuki (Ouri's death). I welcome any theory you have that can link Zero to the same emotional level as Ouri's death or Yuuki's situation in chapter 32.

aya-chan wrote:

caela wrote:
Also, treating people like chess pieces is not a way to treat a fiancee (If this is what Kaname is doing). Its not bitterness, its common courtesy. I don't walk around thinking about how to use people. Kaname knows how much Yuuki loves him. All he would have to do is ask her to do it. Racism is bad, and so is this.

Did kaname ever said that yuuki is a chess piece in his game? that is yuuki assumptions, not kaname thinking.

もしかしたら私はあの人の駒のひとつなのかもね...= "Maybe I am one of that person's chesspiece...

だったら これからも駒は駒なりに 任せられた場所でやりたいようにやってやる... = "If that's the case, from now on, I will be a chesspiece in a chesspiece way, doing his favor like that's what I want to do at the entrusted place..."

Before kaname leaving he said to her to not hesitate and this include yuuki's decission. Yuuki decided to act like a chess piece.
kaname knows yuuki personality and can guess how she will react, but this doesn't mean he's manipulating her. yuuki has her own will.

caela wrote:

nina wrote:@caela … you know, you and a few others were fangirling over the “assumption” that Kaname manipulating the whole situation in order to pass Yuuki to Zero while you’re trying to degrade him saying that he treats Yuuki like a piece into his game …

I suppose that in the first option he is a "good manipulator" cuz materializing your “dreams” for Zeki and you don’t mind if something like that makes Yuuki an object, whereas when Yuuki by her OWN FREE WILL DECIDES to stand by his side, Kaname is a "bad manipulator"…

That’s sounds very bitter to me if not something else … but I’ll let the fans to draw their own conclusions…

PS. And here one case where Yuuki FROWNING and BLUSHING because Aido tries to stop her
http://www.mangareader.net/104-37352-24/vampire-knight/chapter-55.html

umm...I don't see the fangirling. Yuuki has made it clear that even a betrayal would not stop her love for Kaname. That does not mean that she cannot have moments of doubt. It would take alot more than this for her to change her mind and choose Zero.

Also, treating people like chess pieces is not a way to treat a fiancee (If this is what Kaname is doing). Its not bitterness, its common courtesy. I don't walk around thinking about how to use people. Kaname knows how much Yuuki loves him. All he would have to do is ask her to do it. Racism is bad, and so is this.

The example you gave of Yuuki frowning and blushing was also a high stress/high emotion moment of helplessness for Yuuki (Ouri's death). I welcome any theory you have that can link Zero to the same emotional level as Ouri's death or Yuuki's situation in chapter 32.

sweetsolace wrote:

caela wrote:

nina wrote:@caela … you know, you and a few others were fangirling over the “assumption” that Kaname manipulating the whole situation in order to pass Yuuki to Zero while you’re trying to degrade him saying that he treats Yuuki like a piece into his game …

I suppose that in the first option he is a "good manipulator" cuz materializing your “dreams” for Zeki and you don’t mind if something like that makes Yuuki an object, whereas when Yuuki by her OWN FREE WILL DECIDES to stand by his side, Kaname is a "bad manipulator"…

That’s sounds very bitter to me if not something else … but I’ll let the fans to draw their own conclusions…

PS. And here one case where Yuuki FROWNING and BLUSHING because Aido tries to stop her
http://www.mangareader.net/104-37352-24/vampire-knight/chapter-55.html

umm...I don't see the fangirling. Yuuki has made it clear that even a betrayal would not stop her love for Kaname. That does not mean that she cannot have moments of doubt. It would take alot more than this for her to change her mind and choose Zero.

Also, treating people like chess pieces is not a way to treat a fiancee (If this is what Kaname is doing). Its not bitterness, its common courtesy. I don't walk around thinking about how to use people. Kaname knows how much Yuuki loves him. All he would have to do is ask her to do it. Racism is bad, and so is this.

The example you gave of Yuuki frowning and blushing was also a high stress/high emotion moment of helplessness for Yuuki (Ouri's death). I welcome any theory you have that can link Zero to the same emotional level as Ouri's death or Yuuki's situation in chapter 32.

what makes you think Yuki has moments of doubt? She is completely giving herself to Kaname's cause, despite being blind to his motives and objectives.
"I will do what is expected of me as a chess piece. Step by step one at a time, until I can finally reach him" -chapter 76
"I may not know what Kaname is doing, but Im going to stop him no matter what" -chapter 75

she has no reason to doubt him when she puts in her hands to get him, she set a determination for herself to help Kaname. That's actually TRUST in his actions, she knows he's doing bad things but deep inside, she knows Kaname has true plans and she's willing to become a chess piece for it despite not knowing what it is. She is willing to go this far just to be with him. Staking so much for something that is not even sure, and will potentially harm her shows much where her love and her trust in him lies.

Kaname NEVER said he's going to turn Yuki into a chess piece, she got the idea when she heard his message to her. Like said before she is willing to become one just to see him, its not manipulation like Zero is doing. She wasnt told to be one, she went with her own will. And I doubt this is Kaname's intention even, as he wants to protect her, and everything he had done so far was for her safety. To jeopardize that by potentially putting her life on the line as a chess piece defies his entire purpose/mission.

Its pretty obvious that Yuki was upset and it showed when Zero grabbed her arm. obviously none of what was happening was making her happy, worst the people around her were actually DISCOURAGING HER from continuing to love Kaname and SHE KNOWS IT.
Yuki (to zero): I know you were thinking that I would probably get fed up hearing the same thing from him, right?
she had in her mind that Zero was trying to wrench her attention or love away from Kaname by degrading Kaname's image further. And who actually said that Zero will be the messenger, he could have taken the matter to his hands all by himself to earn him extra points in Yuki's heart. It doesn't take much equation to figure it out--pretty much Zero had been doing "discreet" advances towards Yuki by making excuses when Kaname was gone , so its not surprising that he would be degrading his image further in Yuki's eyes. And to accentuate the point that this was part of his intention, it came as a shock to him to hear Yuki saying she still believed in Kaname thus the arm grab.
Kaname has his flaws and his own set of illness (Rido) but at least he doesnt try to control her from doing what she wants like grabbing her arm .