anti-vampire weapons...

First topic message reminder :

Until now I believed that the anti-vampire weapons are two: the bloody rose and the artemis.
but it seems that there is one more: the sword.
I am talking about the sword that Rido uses to kill baby Kaname (and it has to be anti-vampire to kill a baby vampire) and the sword that Rido again uses against Haruka and Kaname recognizes it (I believe that it is the same sword, cause their shapes are the same but with Hino I can;t be sure for this )
Here the links for the scenes withe sword I am talking about:

http://www.onemanga.com/Vampire_Knight/62/005/
http://www.onemanga.com/Vampire_Knight/38/18/
http://www.onemanga.com/Vampire_Knight/38/14/

we know already that antivampire weapons were made by Kaname. And that the female ancestor use to have Artemis.
we also know that Artemis and bloody rose can't hurt Kaname (specially the bloody rose) cause they recognize him as their master
So my question is: if Kaname use to have Bloody rose as a weapon and the female anchestor had Artemis, then who had the sword??
Kaname said that the sword belongs to the hunters. but it is still confusing to me.
And another question: whyZero has the bloody rose? who gave it to him???
and why is written above the bloody rose the phrase: CROSSING DANGER???
http://th01.deviantart.com/fs27/300W/i/2008/035/e/7/Bloody_Rose_Gun_by_wOmpy_ness.jpg
Is the bloody rose connected with Cross? I can't think any other explanation why this phrase is there.

nina wrote:

bloodredhead wrote: with kaname and the weapon he is carrying i'm unsure whether it is an anti-vampire weapon but then again he did kill aidou-dono with it so i think it might be. i'm not sure but i dont think all kurans can carry anti-vampire weapons. kaname was able to in the past but when rido woke him with the blood of the baby, i wonder if that child didnt have the ability so its had an effect on kaname's. just a thought.

The sword with which Kaname killed Aidou-dono and Hanadagi is an anti-vampire sword … most likely is the same sword that Rido brought into the fight with Haruka and eventually killed him with that, and also with the same sword Rido sacrificed the baby Kaname.

So your theory about the murder of baby Kaname and how it might his blood affected Kaname’s anti-vampire ability it might has potentials … hm.

On the other hand though Kaname wield the same sword at the fight between Rido and Haruka and he didn’t have any side-effect. (???) In fact he had the intention of killing him with that sword ...

I was examing the potentials of the anti-vampire drawing energy when they are used to kill

example bloody rose; ok it drains blood
kaname's sword; fries hands
but there is weapon that does not fall in this theory; artemis...when Yuuki hurts Rido, there is no side effect,so can that theory have grounds?

nina wrote:
The sword with which Kaname killed Aidou-dono and Hanadagi is an anti-vampire sword … most likely is the same sword that Rido brought into the fight with Haruka and eventually killed him with that, and also with the same sword Rido sacrificed the baby Kaname.

So your theory about the murder of baby Kaname and how it might his blood affected Kaname’s anti-vampire ability it might has potentials … hm.

On the other hand though Kaname wield the same sword at the fight between Rido and Haruka and he didn’t have any side-effect. (???) In fact he had the intention of killing him with that sword ...

i wonder if its due to the length of time he held the sword? hmm.....it is quiet puzzling.

juliet wrote:
I was examing the potentials of the anti-vampire drawing energy when they are used to kill

example bloody rose; ok it drains blood
kaname's sword; fries hands
but there is weapon that does not fall in this theory; artemis...when Yuuki hurts Rido, there is no side effect,so can that theory have grounds?

yeah artemis doesnt seem to affect yuuki, unless she hasnt got the full potential out of it yet. her powers are still developing so it may effect her further along the line when her powers are fully developed? the use of power may need a substance to sustain like BR and the sword seem to.

Bloodredhead wrote:

nina wrote:
The sword with which Kaname killed Aidou-dono and Hanadagi is an anti-vampire sword … most likely is the same sword that Rido brought into the fight with Haruka and eventually killed him with that, and also with the same sword Rido sacrificed the baby Kaname.

So your theory about the murder of baby Kaname and how it might his blood affected Kaname’s anti-vampire ability it might has potentials … hm.

On the other hand though Kaname wield the same sword at the fight between Rido and Haruka and he didn’t have any side-effect. (???) In fact he had the intention of killing him with that sword ...

i wonder if its due to the length of time he held the sword? hmm.....it is quiet puzzling.

It is...but notice that kaname's hands starts getting black, or bleeding from here...a sec later when he kills Hanadagi, and that's not such a great time of period (get back at his fight with Rido, he has no problem).

Bloodredhead wrote:

juliet wrote:
I was examing the potentials of the anti-vampire drawing energy when they are used to kill

example bloody rose; ok it drains blood
kaname's sword; fries hands
but there is weapon that does not fall in this theory; artemis...when Yuuki hurts Rido, there is no side effect,so can that theory have grounds?

yeah artemis doesnt seem to affect yuuki, unless she hasnt got the full potential out of it yet. her powers are still developing so it may effect her further along the line when her powers are fully developed? the use of power may need a substance to sustain like BR and the sword seem to.

M..could be but then again that does mean that Yuuki without her full powers could not have killed Rido back then? So what was her use in that fight? So it's a bit confusing. And Rido wielding that anti-vampire during his fight with Haruka neither seems effected. So what is it that creates that effect now on Kaname?

About BR vines they are depicted if I am not wrong...

so this weapon has a thing with these vines...but there are thorns as well, it's a rose after all...

bloodredhead wrote: in relation to BR responding and obeying kanames command in chapter 46. i'm wondering if BR took his blood just like it did with zero. in chapter 46 yuuki ask aloud why BR is drinking blood from zero.http://www.mangareader.net/104-2172-14/vampire-knight/chapter-46.html
i wonder if this happened with kaname when he used it in the past. it seems to me that BR needs blood to fuel its power, so it took from zero and may have taken from kaname in the past. that would explain why it would recognise kaname's blood. also he has the blood of the hooded lady in him and BR may also recognise this, as it was born from the furnace that had the HW blood and heart in.

Mmm it might be possible Kaname to have used the BR in the past hence and recognised the taste of his blood which might have sucked from him. But there is an interesting part … the BR obeyed Kaname and in the same time we could say he disobeyed Zero, viz his current owner/master in a sense. Why so? How it chose Kaname over Zero?

Anyway my belief is that the anti-vampire weapons have a part of Kaname’s flesh and blood (through the metal soup/formula that he created) and that’s why he is the ultimate master of those weapons.

juliet wrote: I was examing the potentials of the anti-vampire drawing energy when they are used to kill

example bloody rose; ok it drains blood
kaname's sword; fries hands
but there is weapon that does not fall in this theory; artemis...when Yuuki hurts Rido, there is no side effect,so can that theory have grounds? .
.
.
And Rido wielding that anti-vampire during his fight with Haruka neither seems effected. So what is it that creates that effect now on Kaname?

Too true … you know I was thinking about it and an idea crossed my mind … what if the side effect on Kaname’s hand had to do with Hanadgi itself? >>>

bloodredhead wrote: i wonder if its due to the length of time he held the sword? hmm.....it is quiet puzzling.

juliet wrote: It is...but notice that kaname's hands starts getting black, or bleeding from here...a sec later when he kills Hanadagi, and that's not such a great time of period (get back at his fight with Rido, he has no problem).

Exactly … the length of time doesn’t seem to play a role here …

1. Probably he didn’t hold the sword for that long … furthermore the first sign of “burn” starts to show right after he stabbed Hanadagi … look at his hand before he stabs him >>>
http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/67/29
http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/67/30 >> it’s perfectly fine!

But right after the first signs are appearring >>>
http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/67/31
http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/67/33

2. Then the burning is spreading in very short time … when he meets Ruka and Kain his hand is pitch black!

http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/68
http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/68/2

Now as juliet said in the fight with Haruka/Rido he also holds the sword for a certain time but no side effects though.

So … since his “burn” starts to show seconds after he killed Hanadagi and the theory that when a handler kill his prey the weapon absorbs energy from the user hence and the side-effects, doesn’t apply in all cases then it has to be something else …
And I come again in my initial question … what if Hanadagi is the “source” of Kaname’s burn?
Juliet do you remember we have discussed the subject of the importance of Hanadgi’s role in ancestors’ times and the hints about his castle!???
https://vampireknight.all-up.com/t429p20-kaname-s-kuran-plan-of-action-is-heading-where

If as we suspected Hanadagi is not a “plain” PB then his extermination could have any relation with Kaname’s burn?

Any thought?

Bloodredhead wrote:i havent read the whole thread but i wanted to give my opinion on the anti-vampire weapons.

in relation to BR responding and obeying kanames command in chapter 46. i'm wondering if BR took his blood just like it did with zero. in chapter 46 yuuki ask aloud why BR is drinking blood from zero. http://www.mangareader.net/104-2172-14/vampire-knight/chapter-46.html
i wonder if this happened with kaname when he used it in the past. it seems to me that BR needs blood to fuel its power, so it took from zero and may have taken from kaname in the past. that would explain why it would recognise kaname's blood. also he has the blood of the hooded lady in him and BR may also recognise this, as it was born from the furnace that had the HW blood and heart in.

juliet wrote:
I was examing the potentials of the anti-vampire drawing energy when they are used to kill

example bloody rose; ok it drains blood
kaname's sword; fries hands
but there is weapon that does not fall in this theory; artemis...when Yuuki hurts Rido, there is no side effect,so can that theory have grounds?

there's a theory I've mentioned in this thread before, the antivampireweapon requirement to take blood from its user is when the user KILLS someone with that weapon.

As we saw it was Zero's BR vines that finished Rido, not Yuki's scythe artemis which only stabbed him in the chest. The Scythe Artemis didn't have anymore kills after that, not that I recall, so its not sure whether it will take Yuki's blood if she kills someone.

now about BR gun form, you can reason that it has many kills in the past and if theory is applied it should siphon Zero's blood, but it doesn't do that.
But when BR was in vine form it siphoned Zero's blood after he killed Rido with it. So perhaps the form of the weapon has to do with it?

The Forms
The first form of Artemis was Rod. -no kills
The secondary was Scythe. -this didn't kill anybody before so cant be determined

The first form of BR was Gun. -this killed many vampires but had no side effects to Zero
The secondary was Vines. - this killed Rido and has side effect.

Kuran sword perhaps has no form since it didn't evolve, so its considered to have both forms. Therefore if it kills anyone it would have an effect.
- Rido used it to stab the baby offering to ancestor - it didnt show if it had any effect on Rido's hand..
- it did not harm Rido when Kaname first used it, so no effect
- it killed Hanadagi when Kaname stabbed him in the chest with it - it had an effect, see the blood splash on Kaname's hand
- Kaname used it to chop Nagamichi's head - the effect continues and drains the blood on Kaname's hand until it looks shriveled.
*its not a burn injury, its more like the flesh looks necrotic which happens when there is no blood to that limb. This was discussed before at the beginning of the page so just look there~

Bloodredhead wrote:with kaname and the weapon he is carrying at the moment i'm unsure whether it is an anti-vampire weapon but then again he did kill aidou-dono with it so i think it might be.

yes he killed both hanadagi and nagamichi with it

Bloodredhead wrote:i'm not sure but i dont think all kurans can carry anti-vampire weapons. kaname was able to in the past, but when rido woke him with the blood of the baby, i wonder if that child didnt have the ability so its had an effect on kaname's. he's absorbed that blood and its inability to hold antivampire weapons, hence why the sword was affecting him and doesnt seem to like him holding it for long periods of time. just a thought.

its said that Kaname's revival was "incomplete" because of the process it took to revive him which was unusual. Kaname was in a deep hungered state enough that he might slaughter everyone in the mansion (including Juri and Haruka) to get his blood nourishment, so to prevent this Kaname regressed his body back to a baby. In a sense that canceled out the part where he should be fully nourished... this may have contributed to that.

nina wrote:
Mmm it might be possible Kaname to have used the BR in the past hence and recognised the taste of his blood which might have sucked from him. But there is an interesting part … the BR obeyed Kaname and in the same time we could say he disobeyed Zero, viz his current owner/master in a sense. Why so? How it chose Kaname over Zero?

ooh you're right, Bloodyrose first took Zero's blood so it should know its the owner... however between the owner and the creator of a weapon, who would the weapon recognize more? the BR probably passed ownerships countless of times through the years, but it will only have one creator and thats Kaname and the woman, so the weapon would recognize its voice more.

And I come again in my initial question … what if Hanadagi is the “source” of Kaname’s burn?
Juliet do you remember we have discussed the subject of the importance of Hanadgi’s role in ancestors’ times and the hints about his castle!???
https://vampireknight.all-up.com/t429p20-kaname-s-kuran-plan-of-action-is-heading-where

If as we suspected Hanadagi is not a “plain” PB then his extermination could have any relation with Kaname’s burn?

Any thought?

[/quote]

uh no. the Kuran sword did not only kill Hanadagi, it also killed Nagamichi. so there are two possible sources.

sweetsolace wrote:

The Forms
The first form of Artemis was Rod. -no kills
The secondary was Scythe. -this didn't kill anybody before so cant be determined

The first form of BR was Gun. -this killed many vampires but had no side effects to Zero
The secondary was Vines. - this killed Rido and has side effect.

Kuran sword perhaps has no form since it didn't evolve, so its considered to have both forms. Therefore if it kills anyone it would have an effect.
- Rido used it to stab the baby offering to ancestor - it didnt show if it had any effect on Rido's hand..
- it did not harm Rido when Kaname first used it, so no effect
- it killed Hanadagi when Kaname stabbed him in the chest with it - it had an effect, see the blood splash on Kaname's hand
- Kaname used it to chop Nagamichi's head - the effect continues and drains the blood on Kaname's hand until it looks shriveled.
*its not a burn injury, its more like the flesh looks necrotic which happens when there is no blood to that limb. This was discussed before at the beginning of the page so just look there~

And I come again in my initial question … what if Hanadagi is the “source” of Kaname’s burn?
Juliet do you remember we have discussed the subject of the importance of Hanadgi’s role in ancestors’ times and the hints about his castle!???
https://vampireknight.all-up.com/t429p20-kaname-s-kuran-plan-of-action-is-heading-where

If as we suspected Hanadagi is not a “plain” PB then his extermination could have any relation with Kaname’s burn?

Any thought?

[/quote]

Yes, If I combine both of your posts and answers, then I reach the conclusion that BR and Kaname's sword hurt their owners upon the killing of a pureblood. I will except Artemis, since as Solace mentioned has not actually killed anyone (even though that in way seems to bears a prediction from the weapons parts that the injury it has created is not a lethal one, so again it sounds a bit strange).
Now something that against contradicts with that theory is Rido's sword (that later became Kaname's sword) did not had again an effect on Rido when he killed Haruka and baby Kaname (before given to Kaname the baby was killed with the anti-vampire). So again clueless...

BR obeying Kaname shows that the gun has a consience, an existence of some sort, so BR is not just a simple gun. So I wonder if it has special attributes (perhaps Atermis also) due to its immediate birth- its very close connection to the mother metal, the heart of that woman and the formula that it was used. Something is special about it, I do not think that all hunters' weapons can react that way.

juliet wrote:BR obeying Kaname shows that the gun has a consience, an existence of some sort, so BR is not just a simple gun. So I wonder if it has special attributes (perhaps Atermis also) due to its immediate birth- its very close connection to the mother metal, the heart of that woman and the formula that it was used. Something is special about it, I do not think that all hunters' weapons can react that way.

it does seem that bloody rose and the maybe even the scythe have certain abilities that other hunter weapons seem to have, i'm wondering though if it is due to them being wielded by vampires who are naturally more powerful than humans. This could help increase the weapons capabilities and make them stronger.

juliet wrote:

sweetsolace wrote:

The Forms
The first form of Artemis was Rod. -no kills
The secondary was Scythe. -this didn't kill anybody before so cant be determined

The first form of BR was Gun. -this killed many vampires but had no side effects to Zero
The secondary was Vines. - this killed Rido and has side effect.

Kuran sword perhaps has no form since it didn't evolve, so its considered to have both forms. Therefore if it kills anyone it would have an effect.
- Rido used it to stab the baby offering to ancestor - it didnt show if it had any effect on Rido's hand..
- it did not harm Rido when Kaname first used it, so no effect
- it killed Hanadagi when Kaname stabbed him in the chest with it - it had an effect, see the blood splash on Kaname's hand
- Kaname used it to chop Nagamichi's head - the effect continues and drains the blood on Kaname's hand until it looks shriveled.
*its not a burn injury, its more like the flesh looks necrotic which happens when there is no blood to that limb. This was discussed before at the beginning of the page so just look there~

And I come again in my initial question … what if Hanadagi is the “source” of Kaname’s burn?
Juliet do you remember we have discussed the subject of the importance of Hanadgi’s role in ancestors’ times and the hints about his castle!???
https://vampireknight.all-up.com/t429p20-kaname-s-kuran-plan-of-action-is-heading-where

If as we suspected Hanadagi is not a “plain” PB then his extermination could have any relation with Kaname’s burn?

Any thought?

Yes, If I combine both of your posts and answers, then I reach the conclusion that BR and Kaname's sword hurt their owners upon the killing of a pureblood. I will except Artemis, since as Solace mentioned has not actually killed anyone (even though that in way seems to bears a prediction from the weapons parts that the injury it has created is not a lethal one, so again it sounds a bit strange).
Now something that against contradicts with that theory is Rido's sword (that later became Kaname's sword) did not had again an effect on Rido when he killed Haruka and baby Kaname (before given to Kaname the baby was killed with the anti-vampire). So again clueless...

The events leading Rido to kill the baby were quite vague in itself:
-it was evident Rido intended to use the baby to revive kaname, and it was evident he used the Kuran sword to do it
http://www.mangareader.net/104-54910-6/vampire-knight/chapter-62.html

But the question is, was the baby dead because of the blow he gave it? its a rule that purebloods who die shatter into crystals, but the baby's body was still intact and dripping blood
http://www.mangareader.net/104-52342-25/vampire-knight/chapter-61.html

so perhaps Rido did not kill the baby with the sword, he probably wounded it enough so it would have enough blood offering to serve the purpose of awakening Kaname. After which blood loss was the cause of death for the baby, or the hit of the antivampire weapon itself that it failed to heal its wounds.. because after that the baby's body was not found
http://www.mangareader.net/104-54910-9/vampire-knight/chapter-62.html
it was then he turned to crystals
in theory

so the theory is still applicable in this case, meh! It will be if Rido stabbing him with the kuran sword did not kill the baby instantly (whereas Kaname's direct blows to Hanadagi and Aido were instant death). Just like Yuki's scythe artemis stabbing Rido but not killing him

now then the conditions of this theory is place as: Instant death to the vampire, with the weapon in its secondary form = side effects: siphon blood from the user

ok ok i know its just a theory.. but how do you explain Kaname's hand in chapter 68, after which it healed in chapter 71..?

another thing is the way the weapon siphoned blood from its user
Zero - his weapon was vines that came from the gun, it was the second form, and likewise it siphoned blood from Zero through leeching on his skin.. the vines were separate or growing out of the gun so in a way it doesnt have a connecting point that links the wielder to the weapon where it can siphon blood. So the vines took discretion and slithered through Zero's flesh.
EDIT: added this, again. for some reason it disappeared from my edited post so im rewriting..

Kaname (in theory) - the kuran sword has a handle where the wielder is connected to the weapon, and since kaname is holding the weapon through this its also where the weapon siphons his blood

Also, in that pic where you posted Kaname was wearing gloves while the weapons were in their secondary form

Spoiler:

perhaps it is to prevent the side effects of the weapons?

and maybe the secondary forms of the weapons is actually the original form of the weapon since it shows there the form of the weapon before it passed hands.. and the original form reveals the true nature of the weapon as tools that were created from a vampire's blood and flesh. Hence it is more powerful compared to their other forms but it also bears the side effects, as a "vampire"

i know.. im thinking too much but this is all theory

it does seem that bloody rose and the maybe even the scythe have certain abilities that other hunter weapons seem to have, i'm wondering though if it is due to them being wielded by vampires who are naturally more powerful than humans. This could help increase the weapons capabilities and make them stronger.

I do believe that this is happening/the power of the holder determines the power of the weapon, as we saw Artemis changed completely after Yuuki's change...m..could that explain Bloody's rose transformation as well? Zero also turned far more powerful than before and kaname now has even more powers than when he was kid and held that weapons but Rido killing Haruka got nothing...

The events leading Rido to kill the baby were quite vague in itself:
-it was evident Rido intended to use the baby to revive kaname, and it was evident he used the Kuran sword to do it
http://www.mangareader.net/104-54910-6/vampire-knight/chapter-62.html

But the question is, was the baby dead because of the blow he gave it? its a rule that purebloods who die shatter into crystals, but the baby's body was still intact and dripping blood
http://www.mangareader.net/104-52342-25/vampire-knight/chapter-61.html

so perhaps Rido did not kill the baby with the sword, he probably wounded it enough so it would have enough blood offering to serve the purpose of awakening Kaname. After which blood loss was the cause of death for the baby, or the hit of the antivampire weapon itself that it failed to heal its wounds.. because after that the baby's body was not found
http://www.mangareader.net/104-54910-9/vampire-knight/chapter-62.html
it was then he turned to crystals
in theory

M...you are right there still Haruka was killed by Rido and the same sword no side effects...this is turning like an enigma here...

ok ok i know its just a theory.. but how do you explain Kaname's hand in chapter 68, after which it healed in chapter 71..?

personally? i was afraid that the tablets may have been altered by Sara and have downgraded his rehealing ability...eitherwise I could not find a solid reason/explanation

and maybe the secondary forms of the weapons is actually the original form of the weapon since it shows there the form of the weapon before it passed hands.. and the original form reveals the true nature of the weapon as tools that were created from a vampire's blood and flesh. Hence it is more powerful compared to their other forms but it also bears the side effects, as a "vampire"

Yes it seems that they have two forms or general speaking some "special abilities' like Artemis is a scyth and a rod, Br can not be used as normal weapons, takes bullets that kill vampires, has vines...another characteristic as the vampires that have some special abilities? interesting, never thought it that way...

The events leading Rido to kill the baby were quite vague in itself:
-it was evident Rido intended to use the baby to revive kaname, and it was evident he used the Kuran sword to do it
http://www.mangareader.net/104-54910-6/vampire-knight/chapter-62.html

But the question is, was the baby dead because of the blow he gave it? its a rule that purebloods who die shatter into crystals, but the baby's body was still intact and dripping blood
http://www.mangareader.net/104-52342-25/vampire-knight/chapter-61.html

so perhaps Rido did not kill the baby with the sword, he probably wounded it enough so it would have enough blood offering to serve the purpose of awakening Kaname. After which blood loss was the cause of death for the baby, or the hit of the antivampire weapon itself that it failed to heal its wounds.. because after that the baby's body was not found
http://www.mangareader.net/104-54910-9/vampire-knight/chapter-62.html
it was then he turned to crystals
in theory

You have a point here. In my theory, even if that baby was a pureblood he was very fragile, compared with an adult. probably the baby wasn't hit in his head or heart, but he was a small baby and probably his regenerative powers were weak. I was possible for him to die even if an anti-vampire weapon wasn't used.

aya-chan wrote:

The events leading Rido to kill the baby were quite vague in itself:
-it was evident Rido intended to use the baby to revive kaname, and it was evident he used the Kuran sword to do it
http://www.mangareader.net/104-54910-6/vampire-knight/chapter-62.html

But the question is, was the baby dead because of the blow he gave it? its a rule that purebloods who die shatter into crystals, but the baby's body was still intact and dripping blood
http://www.mangareader.net/104-52342-25/vampire-knight/chapter-61.html

so perhaps Rido did not kill the baby with the sword, he probably wounded it enough so it would have enough blood offering to serve the purpose of awakening Kaname. After which blood loss was the cause of death for the baby, or the hit of the antivampire weapon itself that it failed to heal its wounds.. because after that the baby's body was not found
http://www.mangareader.net/104-54910-9/vampire-knight/chapter-62.html
it was then he turned to crystals
in theory

You have a point here. In my theory, even if that baby was a pureblood he was very fragile, compared with an adult. probably the baby wasn't hit in his head or heart, but he was a small baby and probably his regenerative powers were weak. I was possible for him to die even if an anti-vampire weapon wasn't used.

Interesting. When Yuki was a child, she didn´t drink Kaname's blood. She drank his energy through kissing (cute). I understand that a PB gradually acquire the powers, or rather the powers of a child are dormant and they waking up through the time. This also explains some hidden Y´s skills, after all Yuki awakened, born now as a PB. So I think the baby was normal, but he was not with all the powers yet.