anti-vampire weapons...

First topic message reminder :

Until now I believed that the anti-vampire weapons are two: the bloody rose and the artemis.
but it seems that there is one more: the sword.
I am talking about the sword that Rido uses to kill baby Kaname (and it has to be anti-vampire to kill a baby vampire) and the sword that Rido again uses against Haruka and Kaname recognizes it (I believe that it is the same sword, cause their shapes are the same but with Hino I can;t be sure for this )
Here the links for the scenes withe sword I am talking about:

http://www.onemanga.com/Vampire_Knight/62/005/
http://www.onemanga.com/Vampire_Knight/38/18/
http://www.onemanga.com/Vampire_Knight/38/14/

we know already that antivampire weapons were made by Kaname. And that the female ancestor use to have Artemis.
we also know that Artemis and bloody rose can't hurt Kaname (specially the bloody rose) cause they recognize him as their master
So my question is: if Kaname use to have Bloody rose as a weapon and the female anchestor had Artemis, then who had the sword??
Kaname said that the sword belongs to the hunters. but it is still confusing to me.
And another question: whyZero has the bloody rose? who gave it to him???
and why is written above the bloody rose the phrase: CROSSING DANGER???
http://th01.deviantart.com/fs27/300W/i/2008/035/e/7/Bloody_Rose_Gun_by_wOmpy_ness.jpg
Is the bloody rose connected with Cross? I can't think any other explanation why this phrase is there.

sweetsolace wrote: the topic was brought up in this forum and others, something about kaname not having the ability, so the answer is that Kaname is probably the true origin of the av ability..

Oh yes I know the “flying” rumor
… but thus far I don’t think anyone has enough evidences to support the idea that Kaname isn’t capable to hold and use the anti-vampire weapons except from ch.68 but since then we haven’t see Kaname, so no ones knows what exactly happened. On the contrary there are multiple data to support otherwise!
Although I’m not sure for the mechanism yet … is it cuz he used his own flesh and blood for the experiments or cuz he drank from the hooded woman and vice versa, or both (?). The point is that he has an advantage to wield them something other PBs-ancestors lack and that’s why he led the war in the past (another hint for his ability).

sweetsolace wrote: i also think it could be necrosis of some sort... necrosis (for humans) happens blood supply is impeded on that portion of the body, the part loses nutrients and dies off.

Yes exactly what I meant … maybe is not the best term but it gives an idea … we don’t need a doctor to explain the phenomenon with scientific terminology mumbo jumbo … :P:P ROFL

sweetsolace wrote: ah its possible.. but it's been discussed before that Kaname took the tablets before knowing he was going to the Hanadagis so he couldn't have known he was going to need to replenish himself.. also, yuki's 'journey to the past' took days? I thought it was only a day..lol. yuki got a bit of kaname's blood and then sailed through his memories for a day, i think, since kaname changed yuki's clothes and he placed a rose on her as he did, if a few days passed the rose would've withered or something. (ermm what? LOL don't know how long a rose stays fresh?)

Yes you’re right … my bad lol. Everything happened together they fed each other probably on the same day/night. It was ch.61 and its been ages since then !!!!

However I have the feeling not the certainty of course that he knew what’s coming for and that’s why he “prepared” Yuuki for the upcoming. Ruka and Akatsuki observed the Hanadagi’s castle way before … even before the ball and Ouri’s murder by Sara …
http://www.mangareader.net/104-19604-19/vampire-knight/chapter-52.html

So he expected a move towards Hanadagi especially after Ouri’s murder >> Sara “stole” Ouri’s PB powers cuz she needed to melt the icy front … I doubt if Kaname didn’t connect the dots …


Anyway the fact that Hino chose to show Kaname taking tablets twice must have a special meaning or Yuuki was too “greedy” and drained my darling XDDDD (just a joke )

sweetsolace wrote: But what if Kaname is not Sara's target... if she's going for a product that can be mass producce and affects the entire vampire population, what do you think she has in mind in helping her goals? It seems to me Sara is the type of character who likes to create lots of slaves...maybe she needs more? and she can accomplish this by giving some of her blood to the tablets so whoever drinks it becomes her slaves?

Mmm I find it quite possible … she said she want an army willing to sacrifice limb from limb for her and she already has prisoners … she is the type capable to create a chaos …
Either way I think all these are the means to gain her goal, but to be a Queen she had to exterminate Kaname and maybe Yuuki (?).

rumland wrote: I said they all have the ability to make them, not weild them
.
.
. … The av weapons are made of metal smelted along with a pb vampires heart, that is what was revealed, if you need page numbers just ask. By taking that any pb vampire can make the weapons if they are willing to give up there heart.

If that was true then why none PB tried to make one thus far? They had centuries ahead to experiment … Don’t tell me that all of them were so pure that couldn’t sacrifice another PB to gain that power! … I think there must be something more …

rumland wrote: IMO you need a certain blood line to weild them, being the blood line of the heart used to make them, in this case the female vampire anchent who it is possible brought kanames offspring into the world hence carrying her blood down the kuran line. This would explain why only the hunter family lines, the humans who drank her blood in large deadly doeses and the kuran line, possibly her offspring can weild them.

It’s not necessary true that the Kuran linage came from hooded woman (although I can’t exclude the probability yet) … Kaname drank from her and vice versa … so as the first hunters did viz drank her blood in order to gain the ability to use the anti-vampire weapons , why not the same mechanism happened in Kaname’s case ? Why she must be the one who appointed the anti-vampire ability? Who knows maybe she took that ability from Kaname through his blood ... she said to kaname "give me your power"!!!!

rumland wrote: Kaname is already a good charecter as it is, I dont see why so many people try to add things to him that he just dosen't need, kaname is already some what like a god in the manga, there is no reason to pump up a god, the only perpose it serves is to lead to disapointment when he cant live up to the hype.

And why you insist Kaname hasn’t the ability to hold and use the anti-VWs since he atleast also did the exact same thing like the hunters did?>>> they all drank from the same ancestor after all!

This is a lon post, please bear with me...

Okay we start with anti-vampires weapons, what we know but first some things from the official fanbook which I think it’s good to sum up…

“The progenitor is supposed to have had powers much greater than those of vampires living today”.

Kaname’s abilities: He has abilities that surpass human understanding. Kaname himself still holds secrets, so his full abilities are unknown. When Kaname bares his intent to kill…The aura and the shock waves that radiate are beyond imagination.

From official Volume 9, when he visits to kill Asato:
Asato: “That one of our holy progenitors who was resurrected has taken the trouble to come here…”
Kaname: “You took care of me Asato Ichijo, and I’ve regained the condition I was in before I went to sleep…”

Note that there is a possibility, that other purebloods/progenitors exist as well; example Hanadagi, Isaya (recently awaken).

Below are just information for those who want to refresh their knowledge about vampire classes, a bit irrelevant so I just added that in a spoiler..

Spoiler:

Now back to the history and the theory that I summed up collecting all your clues and ideas (credits to all for the inspiration)…

All pure bloods have the ability to make anti vampire weapons, when kaname was making them he said he finds that if he mixes a certain part of the pb's body with the molten metal then it is able to create a weapon that kills vampires.

Not all purebloods, but the theory that all progenitors had the ability is highly possible as it is mentioned that; “The progenitor is supposed to have had powers much greater than those of vampires living today”.

Now Kaname tries to find what it is that can stop the regeneration process of the purebloods (and eventually kill them).

Kaname used part of his own body in the formula as he tries to find what it is that kills purebloods.



What we know is that he discovers the notion that his blood/parts have the ability to kill.




This means that since he discovers it, the other progenitors do not know of the ability, and they do not know how to use it against them… they are oblivious to that, as Kaname was prior to the experiment.

Apparently, the progenitors want to enslave, and increase the number of vampires on earth, Kaname initiated the experiment in order to find the means to stop them, therefore he is the one discovering the notion first.

Note the word metallic soup, the ability is transferred into metal, Kaname also discovers the anti-vampire weapons, in an initial phase, through his experiment.


He has this notion and he is willing to sacrifice himself, so that they all have the vampire genes in order to for them able to wield the weapons and hunt vampires as also profoundly parts of his body are going to be used in the metallic soup to make the weapons…

“I ignored the faint smell of a secret…”





in the same scan that Kaname mentions that she looks pale…
why?
Is it possible for the experiment to have been conducted first? And she experimenting with her own flesh and blood to see if that applies to her also? So she destines herself to be sacrificed therefore she says to him that he should work hard even if she is not around and apologizes for giving him this burden?


I assume, that this must be the correct order, first Kaname discovers the hidden ability he has, she learns it from him, she makes her own experiments, which make her “look pale”, Kaname disregards that idea. She is sacrificed to pass to the humans the genes and the parts they need to wield the new weapons.

Immediately two weapons are born, Artemis and Bloody Rose.
Bloody Rose helds a connection to Kaname that is releaved in his fight with Zero…
“If you have recognize the taste of my blood”…

For The ability;

Two scenarios;
Either all the progenitors had it or she took the power from him, since she had asked him to lend his powers



In this case Kaname wrongly assumed that all the progenitors have this ability (after all his experiment was conducted only with his parts)….

This unque abiltie is revealed later on as only the Kuran lineage has the ability to wield the weapons. Apparently knowing later on the history of the hunters other progenitors could do it but they do not. Kurans becomes Kings, as the hunters,they have the certain progenitor’s genes.
…as Sweet Solace demonstrated in the scans…
\where Isaya speaks of the Kurans only wielding anti-vampires.

Another question that rises;
if all then why not use it (the story is known now, Zero narrates it to Aidou) , to make their own vampire weapons and wield them since the weapons seem to recognize the ancestor's genes to the person that wields them and allow it?

Once the hunters were "born", the story of the anti-vampire weapons should have been known even to the ancient times.

I think that they are more evidence supporting the unique Kuran power that allows the wielding of the anti-vampire weapons through identification as kaname stated.

I will write more observations it later as this was a long post, hope you are not tired though , write your remarks, debates...and I will add more about the current situation where we see that Kaname faces problems with the anti-vampire weapons later..

Although I’m not sure for the mechanism yet … is it cuz he used his own flesh and blood for the experiments or cuz he drank from the hooded woman and vice versa, or both (?). The point is that he has an advantage to wield them something other PBs-ancestors lack and that’s why he led the war in the past (another hint for his ability).

Agree, for some reason the other purebloods or vampires don't have that something special who can let them wield anti-vampire weapons, except for the kurans. kurans have something in their blood who allow them to use these weapons. This something could be obtain when kaname drank the hooded woman's blood.

However I have the feeling not the certainty of course that he knew what’s coming for and that’s why he “prepared” Yuuki for the upcoming. Ruka and Akatsuki observed the Hanadagi’s castle way before … even before the ball and Ouri’s murder by Sara …
http://www.mangareader.net/104-19604-19/vampire-knight/chapter-52.html

So he expected a move towards Hanadagi especially after Ouri’s murder >> Sara “stole” Ouri’s PB powers cuz she needed to melt the icy front … I doubt if Kaname didn’t connect the dots …

Probably in that missing year some of purebloods made some moves, not only sara, for examples vampires who kidnap children. kamame didn't send ruka and kaien to watch over hanadagi casttle just for fun. kaname knew something is happening so he tried to prepare yuuki.

Anyway the fact that Hino chose to show Kaname taking tablets twice must have a special meaning or Yuuki was too “greedy” and drained my darling XDDDD (just a joke )

Such a greedy yuuki, she drained my kawai kaname. I should kick her and replae her with me

sweetsolace wrote:
But what if Kaname is not Sara's target... if she's going for a product that can be mass producce and affects the entire vampire population, what do you think she has in mind in helping her goals? It seems to me Sara is the type of character who likes to create lots of slaves...maybe she needs more? and she can accomplish this by giving some of her blood to the tablets so whoever drinks it becomes her slaves?

Sara want to enrage kaname, for kaname to come after her. But in all this time Sara make preparations for this moment. She knows she doesn't stand a change into a battle with kaname, so she try to gain more power.
sara is the smartest female vampire from vampire knight, she know what she do.

she said to kaname "give me your power"!!!!

For me these words seems like she ask for kaname help to stop their kind from doing harm to humans, an alliance between her and kaname. (this is my opinion)

I just wonder who gave BR to kaien? we know kaien gave BR to zero, but who gave it to him? My guess is kaname gave BR to kaien to give it to zero - zero was already included in kaname chess game. then kaien wasn't a vampire hunter anymore, so he shouldn't had that gun at him, only if the hunter association give it to him special for zero.
One thing I am sure, kaien had Artemis from kaname, since Artemis was a weapon who remain in kuran familly.

To juliet, great post there, I was actualy thinking the ancesters when I said all pure bloods but I didn't write it so that does make me wrong on the all pure bloods, but I still belive all the ancesters could.

As for the blood and weapons, if it was a power from kaname alone, I doubt the hunters could use the av weapons. Drinking from a vampire wont changed the drinking vampires genes, if that were the case kaname would no longer be a pure pb cause he drank from ruka, it is obvious that you can get greater powers from drinking from another pb, however I dont think the power is limited to 1 vampire.

But this hits on another thery, the hunters all drank from the ancester women and there they gained vampire genes out of it. Do you think it is possible that they are a kind of a partly awakened vampire?

I mean we know a vampire can become human and then be reawen as a vampire. I belive it is also stated that the true power of the hunters can only be seen thru a liveing twin (I might be wrong on that part but they are stated to be stronger then the other hunters). Which measns they might be born more vampire like and that might be why they are stronger. So when zero was turned it might be possible that he is some kind of twisted pb rooting straqight from the ancester lady.

Does anyone know if the vampire hunters limit there breeding as well? making it to where they only breed with other hunters. Zero's parents did look alike.

That was just a thery that hit me as I was typeing this post lol. Dont take it to seriusly, but what would you guys think if it turned out to be true?

Okay I concluded my anti-vampire theory now, Rum you push me into harder thinking so I filled parts there to see how that could have happened; it is just a theory but i think it makes sense...

Here you go...

Anti-vampire power
The genes that made the hunters and the weapons belong to vampire progenitors; two we know Kaname and the woman.

Through the experiment, Kaname discovers the notion that his body/blood features the anti-vampire power. So there is no question to if Kaname has it or not. He certainly has it when he is making the experiments.


Hino strongly highlights the word “LEND ME YOUR POWER”, even though the two of them where not aware of the hidden ability prior to Kaname’s experiment and it had more the meaning of her taking any power to help her in her cause to fight the other purebloods as Aya said.

I thought about it, although powers are transfered in this situation is not so simple because we are dealing with the birth of the vampire hunters, not just a transfer of powers among purebloods. So I think that it was irrelevant after all if she just took his power, she needed something more "the experiment method".


Then there is another entrance. “She is pale”, “So why is she looking pale? She feeds from Kaname and as a progenitor her regenerating abilities should be quite high…

That leads Kaname into thinking that she is up to something “faint smell of a secret” but he prefers to ignore it.

What’s the secret? That she intends to sacrifice herself? But if she has the anti-vampire abilty, she just knows it and she is ready to pass it to the hunters, this does not justify her being pale.

At this point, I think that the secret is that she is experimenting with the anti-vampire blend to see if she can be the one sacrificed instead of Kaname… the experiments she is doing to herself somehow have deteriorated her re-healing ability,have decreased her health therefore she looks pale… and that fact should have warned Kaname of her final intentions.

So again, I think that Kaname was the source that lend her the power along with the knowledge to perform her own experiments that would allow her to work as a vessel of the power for humans and objects.

When she visits the hunters, after the experiments that Kaname has conducted and the power she has taken…



She is finally able to provide the hunters with the method as Zero says that she has obtained through Kaname’s experiments…



She gives them her blood which is like poison to them…and many faced a death. Why? Pureblood’s blood should be a medicine to them… (ichiro’s case, Kaname giving his blood to the people)…



And finally throws her heart in the furnace…
So how does she die?

We all know that she can not die just because she gave her heart so that drives me to the conclusion...

My theory: She dies from the metal soup that she has taken (anti-vampire) that has poison her blood and her heart… so that the anti-vampire power (originally found at Kaname and blended in his formula) can be transformed into objects and also alter the human genes/pass the vampire genes inside them.

Now her parts and blood carry the concluded formula that kaname made and can be also used and thrown in the furnace, to finally make the anti-vampire weapons.

The weapons seem to work through identification to the progenitors blood/genes…that were used in the formula she had taken to pass the anti-vampire power to the humans.

Kaname is able to command BR since it identifies his blood/genes.

If all the purebloods or all the progenitors had this power (the initial power carried in blood prior to Kaname’s metallic soup discovery);
They could have it, but a very logical argument here, is why not use it to make their own weapons, that would carry their blood and genes and therefore identify them and be able to wield them?

An answer can be the metallic formula that Kaname made…perhaps that remains as a secret so nobody knows how to extract/alter the power into objects or give it in a form that could also pass to humans to make more hunters.


The story for the anti-vampire weapons is already known…
So even though in terms of powers sounds logical (why not all?), practical it does not prove to be accurate since no other lineage has taken advantage of it.

Also the other logical explanation is that they do not have it, only Kaname initially did, extracted it trough his blood/parts he used and
made a metalic formula that could transfer the power to humans and to objects. This formula was specially designed for humans so once they would get it/through his own sacrifice their genes would change into vampire genes and the powers would increase without transforming them to vampires as the process of biting.

This is up with the anti-vampire weapons’ creation that I came up so far taking into account the scans, the series of the events and also many questions and arguments that we all said and wrote in order to fill in the gaps. If you see contradictions point it out and we shall discuss.

Does anyone know if the vampire hunters limit there breeding as well? making it to where they only breed with other hunters. Zero's parents did look alike.

Yes they do, it is mentioned at the fanbook and in the spoiler I provided at the above post,it must be two vampire hunters in order to give birth to vampire hunters children. Not all though have the qualifications example Ichiro to be vampire hunters. That reminds me...where are the vampire hunter females? in this story they are all men? are they home? and do not exercise the profession? LOL

The more the vampire genes in them, the stronger they are going to be apparently...now Zero has the full vampire hunters genes from Ichiro, and his vampire side is becoming even more dominant as we see it, after Kaname's, Yuuki and Shizuka's blood.

Juliet … *respect* *bow*

As you posted I also think there wasn’t only 1 progenitor but a lot of them. Hooded woman said all of them (>>I guess the ancestors) came from humans who for some unknown reason gave birth the ancestors/progenitors.

aya-chan wrote: Probably in that missing year some of purebloods made some moves, not only sara, for examples vampires who kidnap children. kamame didn't send ruka and kaien to watch over hanadagi casttle just for fun. kaname knew something is happening so he tried to prepare yuuki.

Yes ... also Hanadagi was an ancestor and maybe Isaya too and quite possible the Hanadagi clan was against the Kurans (monarchy)(?) and pro-PBs whereas the Isaya’s family pro-Kurans.
Here …
http://www.mangareader.net/104-19604-22/vampire-knight/chapter-52.html

Hanadagi’s servant says “ the protectors of the PBs … the Hanadagi family …” this could be another reason why Kaname monitor Hanadagi’s castle and final killed him, among other reasons …






Juri says to Cross she came to “protect” Isayas territory … so I guess the two families get along well.
Another thought … because of the ties between the two families maybe Isaya’s wife chose to turn her children into humans >>> something Yuri did with Yuuki in order to protect her since her existence exposed! I mean maybe when the senate ruled the PB clans who were friendly/allies with the Kurans felt threaten … just a scenario lol.

aya-chan wrote: Such a greedy yuuki, she drained my kawai kaname. I should kick her and replae her with me

Lol … get in the line dear … Kaname is common property …

BTW welcome aya-chan!

aya-chan wrote: I just wonder who gave BR to kaien? we know kaien gave BR to zero, but who gave it to him? My guess is kaname gave BR to kaien to give it to zero - zero was already included in kaname chess game. then kaien wasn't a vampire hunter anymore, so he shouldn't had that gun at him, only if the hunter association give it to him special for zero.
One thing I am sure, kaien had Artemis from kaname, since Artemis was a weapon who remain in kuran familly.

My guess is the two weapons were in Kurans possession … we didn’t saw Zero’s parents to posses the BR so it’s plausible Kaname pass it to Cross for Zero as the Artemis for Yuuki … :roll:

juliet wrote: My theory: She dies from the metal soup that she has taken (anti-vampire) that has poison her blood and her heart… so that the anti-vampire power (originally found at Kaname and blended in his formula) can be transformed into objects and also alter the human genes/pass the vampire genes inside them.

Now her parts and blood carry the concluded formula that kaname made and can be also used and thrown in the furnace, to finally make the anti-vampire weapons.

WOW! that makes perfect sense! Kaname's formula which contained portion of his own flesh and blood >>> anti-vampire power ... killed/poisoned the ancestor in the end!

Akaruisama wrote:Beautiful avatar, sweetsolace! From what do you have it?

thanks! it's part of a larger picture..

Spoiler:

nina wrote:Although I’m not sure for the mechanism yet … is it cuz he used his own flesh and blood for the experiments or cuz he drank from the hooded woman and vice versa, or both (?). The point is that he has an advantage to wield them something other PBs-ancestors lack and that’s why he led the war in the past (another hint for his ability).

I think that would be hard to tell... The "weapons" from when it first emerged from the furnace listened to his commands, also his words to BR to remember the taste of his blood, means he must have offered his blood to it either through his body parts that were involved in the experiment or his blood that was consumed by the woman that became part of her heart.

it's also the reason why he became king. He was the only Kuran in the past existing within the time period the weapons was created, the ability was discovered in the past, the Kurans became royalty because of this ability so it makes perfect sense

However I have the feeling not the certainty of course that he knew what’s coming for and that’s why he “prepared” Yuuki for the upcoming. Ruka and Akatsuki observed the Hanadagi’s castle way before … even before the ball and Ouri’s murder by Sara …
http://www.mangareader.net/104-19604-19/vampire-knight/chapter-52.html
So he expected a move towards Hanadagi especially after Ouri’s murder >> Sara “stole” Ouri’s PB powers cuz she needed to melt the icy front … I doubt if Kaname didn’t connect the dots …

yes you're right, Kaname employed the same action towards watching out for Rido's revival through Seiren.

ch29,pg18
now he done the same thing with watching out for the hanadagi's through kain and ruka. he wouldn't have done that if he knew hanadagi was not a threat..

Anyway the fact that Hino chose to show Kaname taking tablets twice must have a special meaning or Yuuki was too “greedy” and drained my darling XDDDD (just a joke )

haha...yes, im thinking the same thing.

@juliet
thank you for that wonderful narrative and taking the effort to write it all down juliet, you explained it very logically. :bom: I will surely derive something from it in the future... ;)

If the experiment is the requirement necessary for a pureblood to gain ability to make weapons, then the experiment is necessary...

The experiment was conducted by Kaname and afterwards it did not show whether he shared the knowledge HOW to conduct this experiments to others or purebloods, he just shared the "wisdom" of the RESULT of this experiments to the hunters. There was no mention of sharing this wisdom to purebloods, who i think did not partake in the woman's flesh and blood in the first place so they don't qualify to have the same ability as the hunters.

If Kaname did not share the knowledge how to conduct this experiments that grants ability to make avweapons, then other purebloods cannot learn it. Therefore if a pureblood wishes to MAKE a weapon of his own, he should start from base knowledge and conduct his own experiment. None of this was mentioned in the manga, hence none. its quite simple...

I also agree with you that if other purebloods have the ability to make weapons, why didn't they make one? They may not need it, but for example if Sara knew how to make a weapon, that would certainly help her goals..I don't see her making one.

It seems that Kaname and the woman only knew how to make the weapons...i think the woman knew how from watching kaname.

You realy seem to like to twist things around to suit your own meanings, first you missinterpit my first post, now you are ignoreing the info on the first post after the me correcting you. so I will put it all out so you wont missinterpret it this time.

I’m not twisting my words. The first one was a misunderstanding, which i corrected on the second post with an explanation. Reread it again. If i were ignoring your “info” i wouldn’t have bothered with you... Your “info” by the way is not even supported with manga pages, you support it to be true base on CONJECTURE and you think this applies for everything else?? This thread exists for discussion... We’re all posting manga pages to support our point, I suggest you do the same.

The av weapons are made of metal smelted along with a pb vampires heart, that is what was revealed, if you need page numbers just ask. By taking that any pb vampire can make the weapons if they are willing to give up there heart.

This “page numbers” were already posted, if you are reading well into this thread.

As for the sword I would like the evidence you mentioned showing it wasn't made back then please... This is some thing else you dont seem to understand, a lack of evidence is not evidence, so simply saying that it is not mentioned or shown in the past is not evidence it wasn't there. If you need help understanding this part I can give a few examples for you thru pms, so we dont send the topic to off topic.

No. You were the one who thought “just because it wasn’t shown doesn’t mean it wasn’t there”. You were the one who believe it exists before so you're the one who should provide how this is possible. You believe the sword was made "from the first brew of metals"? Where is your evidence? And if you can't find an evidence for your belief then "Lack of evidence is not evidence" this are your words, not mine.
You’re free to believe what you want, but the sword first appeared during Rido’s time. It may have existed before but if the manga pages doesn't show it then it's difficult to say it exists.
Look back and REREAD the posts if you're having difficulty following instead of just making up things and telling me to prove my point when you can’t even prove yours.

Kaname is already a good charecter as it is, I dont see why so many people try to add things to him that he just dosen't need, kaname is already some what like a god in the manga, there is no reason to pump up a god, the only perpose it serves is to lead to disapointment when he cant live up to the hype.

....This can be considered a TROLL right? Off topic and provoking other members.
But in case I was discussing with someone who is apparently lost, let me tell you...
The idea of this thread is for discussion, if you don’t want to discuss you’re free to leave.

Yes ... also Hanadagi was an ancestor and maybe Isaya too and quite possible the Hanadagi clan was against the Kurans (monarchy)(?) and pro-PBs whereas the Isaya’s family pro-Kurans.
Here …
http://www.mangareader.net/104-19604-22/vampire-knight/chapter-52.html

Hanadagi’s servant says “ the protectors of the PBs … the Hanadagi family …” this could be another reason why Kaname monitor Hanadagi’s castle and final killed him, among other reasons …

Juri says to Cross she came to “protect” Isayas territory … so I guess the two families get along well.
Another thought … because of the ties between the two families maybe Isaya’s wife chose to turn her children into humans >>> something Yuri did with Yuuki in order to protect her since her existence exposed! I mean maybe when the senate ruled the PB clans who were friendly/allies with the Kurans felt threaten … just a scenario lol.

Lol … get in the line dear … Kaname is common property …

Nina, that's a very good remark, it seems that Hanadagi was a threat (or why would Kaname try to eliminate him) as he was in a slumber for a real long time, it seems that Kaname should be acquainted with the family from the long past. Even though he was in a preety good shape when he woke up but if he is from the ancestor's time, he should have slept ages after Kaname.

By the way did you noticed him? he was a beast? taller and bigger than Kaname, like a mountain, lol...

As he casted a spell on Aidou's dad he couldn't have the best intentions.

aya-chan wrote: I just wonder who gave BR to kaien? we know kaien gave BR to zero, but who gave it to him? My guess is kaname gave BR to kaien to give it to zero - zero was already included in kaname chess game. then kaien wasn't a vampire hunter anymore, so he shouldn't had that gun at him, only if the hunter association give it to him special for zero.
One thing I am sure, kaien had Artemis from kaname, since Artemis was a weapon who remain in kuran familly.

Hi Aya from me...I agree here with Nina

My guess is the two weapons were in Kurans possession … we didn’t saw Zero’s parents to posses the BR so it’s plausible Kaname pass it to Cross for Zero as the Artemis for Yuuki … :roll:

[WOW! that makes perfect sense! Kaname's formula which contained portion of his own flesh and blood >>> anti-vampire power ... killed/poisoned the ancestor in the end! [/quote]

Did not poison her but weakened her (if she took it, she looks like this though, as she was pale prior to visiting the hunters. It decreased her rejuvenating ability and even though it took her time to die, eventually she could not rejunevate from it...)
So either she made a new formula with her parts (seeing it from kaname) or took Kaname's ready formula that carried even more power, used it onherself ( both cases made her pale) and then passed it to humans and to the guns before Kaname does it. That's must be the method, I think that she says she discovered...or else her death, being an ancestor remains unjustified.

However I have the feeling not the certainty of course that he knew what’s coming for and that’s why he “prepared” Yuuki for the upcoming. Ruka and Akatsuki observed the Hanadagi’s castle way before … even before the ball and Ouri’s murder by Sara …
http://www.mangareader.net/104-19604-19/vampire-knight/chapter-52.html
So he expected a move towards Hanadagi especially after Ouri’s murder >> Sara “stole” Ouri’s PB powers cuz she needed to melt the icy front … I doubt if Kaname didn’t connect the dots …

yes you're right, Kaname employed the same action towards watching out for Rido's revival through Seiren.

ch29,pg18
now he done the same thing with watching out for the hanadagi's through kain and ruka. he wouldn't have done that if he knew hanadagi was not a threat..

I agree strongly plus Kaname seemed to wait something, in the mean time, I think that he puts Yuuki and tells her the truth to prepare her for what is coming because all these will take an effect later on..

I believe he intentionally bites her that much so she can take his blood in large quantities and a. grasps the knowledge of the past b. increase her power

in both ways he is gaving power and by leaving also the authority to act on her own from now on.

thank you for that wonderful narrative and taking the effort to write it all down juliet, you explained it very logically. :bom: I will surely derive something from it in the future... ;)

You are welcome sweet...you now I have the fun of my life here...going over VK and discovering or discovering things...

I also agree with you that if other purebloods have the ability to make weapons, why didn't they make one? They may not need it, but for example if Sara knew how to make a weapon, that would certainly help her goals..I don't see her making one.

Sara comes from a new generation...I think that if that power was common once now it is not because the fanbook suggest that the ancestors had superior power, that now the new lineages don't. But in any case if they had the ability (even in the past or the surviving ancestors or the older generations they would have done it).

As we saw there were a lot of wars involved that eliminated many purebloods family (remember when Kaname tells to Yuuki than now only 30 purebloods remain (including these who left away or went into slumber?) and the Kurans took use of this powers to maintain the peace, with so many purebloods wanting them to step down the throne and consume their power, I doubt that if this power existed in them, they would not have found a way to manipulate it.

Futhermore it is another danger for the Kurans; if their power can be used against them (their blood and flesh) for another pureblood family to make weapons. In a way it's logical that they are so conservative with the pureblods family that surround them and Kaname while Yuuki was still unarmed and naive deteriorate her within the house. The Kurans powers seem to be rather unique and right now are used to regulate peace, imagine the reverse.

About Kaname's ability in the present; after all that his ability to wield that sword seems quite weird.

thank you and nina for the scans that identify the sword used in Hanadagi's murder with the sword used in haruka's murder by Rido. Also with the murder of baby Kaname.

Perhaps that's the reason that Aidou's dad says that the sword "cursed". Indeed it has served the enemies by now.

Also Aidou's dad says that Kaname can not wield it, thus his ability is affected/ the sword seems to draw from him too much energy. If Sara wanted to affect solely Kaname's tablets she could because from Takuma she knows that Kaname takes different tablets from the rest of the vampires and because if the tablets could alterate the quality of his blood, obviously his powers would be affected.
In the same concept she can create tablets that will affect the mass/the popular tables that they take. They would affect the more common vampires because their resistance in blood lust lessens according to their level.
That would explain the crazy incidents that happen in town but aslo the increased blood lust scenes that we seeing with Zero as his vampire side dominates him more.
In the same time her army (that she wants to make) could become stronger and more resistant as she could feed her with her blood (that contain Ouris power)...
and she would have disorganized both Kaname and Zerom hitting them at the spot. If that's her plan, I must admit she is briliant.

Thats funny, I thought I was discuseing, and as for the evidence on the sword, you said there was evidence that it didn't exist in your post, I was simply asking for that evidence that you said existed, these are your words "you're free to believe it exists before then but evidence shows otherwise." I simply asked for that evidence, is that so wrong?
Also I never actualy said it was made from the first brew, I said it could have been, so it is a possabilty. One I dont realy hold to anymore sence julits post, cause if it was made useing his blood and flesh then there should be no problim with him weilding it.

As for me bashing you, it was simply me view point on your post, you did misinterpret my first post and then only posted about the the info I posted after words to correct you, so where is the bashing? I did not call you any names nore did I realy mean to insult you in any way. So is that just a threat from you? If my view points are defrent from yours I shouldn't post anymore? Again this is a question not a bash or a flame. It is just the way I took your post.

I would also like to know what info is not suported, simple saying my info isn't suported does not tell me what info, so it makes it hard to show if it is suported or not on my part.

Now as for this "Look back and REREAD the posts if you're having difficulty following instead of just making up things and telling me to prove my point when you can’t even prove yours." That is considered a bash and is a direct attack towerds me, but dont worry I wont report you just cause you try to insult me, I am not realy the do it my way or get out type, all I want is to get my point of view thru with out misunderstandings, every one else is still welcome to theres, but if they post against mine I will post trying to show why I think what I do.

And at the end of your post another bash on me, you know for telling some one else not to bash you, you sure do like to bash the person your telling not to.

To juliet, on the pb vampire blood, I think it is only in high doeses that it is deadly, I wont say for sure yet sence I need to reread that part and make sure before I post, I will edit back.

My guess is the two weapons were in Kurans possession … we didn’t saw Zero’s parents to posses the BR so it’s plausible Kaname pass it to Cross for Zero as the Artemis for Yuuki

This is what i thought too. thanks for conforming my suspicions.

get in the line dear … Kaname is common property …

BTW welcome aya-chan!

But I don't want to stay in line I will kidnap him
Thanks for the welcoming!

Yes ... also Hanadagi was an ancestor and maybe Isaya too and quite possible the Hanadagi clan was against the Kurans (monarchy)(?) and pro-PBs whereas the Isaya’s family pro-Kurans.
Here …
http://www.mangareader.net/104-19604-22/vampire-knight/chapter-52.html

Hanadagi’s servant says “ the protectors of the PBs … the Hanadagi family …” this could be another reason why Kaname monitor Hanadagi’s castle and final killed him, among other reasons …

Good point! Maybe Hanadagi was an enemy in the past and he would became a treat in the future.
I don't think Hanadagi had slept for too much time, when he talked with Aidou-dono, he had say he know sara - "that weakling girl"

Juri says to Cross she came to “protect” Isayas territory … so I guess the two families get along well.

Yes, the kuran and shouto are friends. Even Isaya admited Juuri is different and he seems to know her well.
Juuri wouldn't be friend with someone who treat humans lifes.

Futhermore it is another danger for the Kurans; if their power can be used against them (their blood and flesh) for another pureblood family to make weapons. In a way it's logical that they are so conservative with the pureblods family that surround them and Kaname while Yuuki was still unarmed and naive deteriorate her within the house. The Kurans powers seem to be rather unique and right now are used to regulate peace, imagine the reverse.

Yes, the kuran blood is the different from others. For example for zero if he wouldn't had drink shizuka's blood (and he didn't drink) he had need kaname blood to gain time - to not fall to level e. only kaname (kuran) blood gave him time, not the blood from others vampires.

juliet: your theories about weapons making have sense.

to aya
I was going to post saying any pb would have done, however these 2 pages agree with your take on it, I didn't want effort in finding them to go to waist so I thought I would post them for ya.




Ps to juliet
your take on it is great, I might not agree with every detail on it but every thing does seem to be sound, so no real input I can put into it other then the blood in high does thing, I still need to look for that and post back on it.

Great job, thank you for all the effort you put into it. :-)

juliet wrote:

Yes ... also Hanadagi was an ancestor and maybe Isaya too and quite possible the Hanadagi clan was against the Kurans (monarchy)(?) and pro-PBs whereas the Isaya’s family pro-Kurans.
Here …
http://www.mangareader.net/104-19604-22/vampire-knight/chapter-52.html

EDIT: there was also mention about Aido family being pro-Kuran, and Ichijo and Shiki are pro-Senate. wonder if this helps...

Hanadagi’s servant says “ the protectors of the PBs … the Hanadagi family …” this could be another reason why Kaname monitor Hanadagi’s castle and final killed him, among other reasons …

Juri says to Cross she came to “protect” Isayas territory … so I guess the two families get along well.
Another thought … because of the ties between the two families maybe Isaya’s wife chose to turn her children into humans >>> something Yuri did with Yuuki in order to protect her since her existence exposed! I mean maybe when the senate ruled the PB clans who were friendly/allies with the Kurans felt threaten … just a scenario lol.

Lol … get in the line dear … Kaname is common property …

Nina, that's a very good remark, it seems that Hanadagi was a threat (or why would Kaname try to eliminate him) as he was in a slumber for a real long time, it seems that Kaname should be acquainted with the family from the long past. Even though he was in a preety good shape when he woke up but if he is from the ancestor's time, he should have slept ages after Kaname.

By the way did you noticed him? he was a beast? taller and bigger than Kaname, like a mountain, lol...

As he casted a spell on Aidou's dad he couldn't have the best intentions.

At the time Ruka and Kain went to see his guardian as seen from the posted link, it said that he had been sleeping for 500 years and was not yet supposed to wake up in 400 years. (hmm so pureblood slumber takes around 900 years?) hanadagi had been sleeping for 500 years....

Kaname as a progenitor goes back around more than 10,000 years ago, so if going by theory Kaname slept for the last 9000 years or somewhere in between, say he ruled the kingdom for a few centuries then went to sleep, that makes his slumber around 6000-8000years.
And if Hanadagi was currently sleeping for the last 500 years (as was currently known) and he's supposed to be the progenitor he was probably awake during the last 9500 years or so (im the only one saying this by the way )

Also, it was mentioned that Hanadagi is the only member of his bloodline (Hm i will still search where this was said...).. Not mentioned if his members were killed through the years but assuming he was alone when he started as progenitor.
Since it was said he had been sleeping for the last 500years then he was not sleeping the way Kaname sleeps (thousands of centuries for one time) so he must have been awake at some point.
So if he was the only member, it would be difficult for him to live alone by himself since it was said purebloods need someone to live to have some purpose, therefore he probably slept twice or thrice during his life, maybe more...if he was living alone he was probably sleeping more to compensate for the emotional drain/something. If followed, that would make the times he slept to be 9-10 times through his life? (9500/900 if on theory) what was he doing if he was one of the progenitor (as suggested) during the times kaname was sleeping...
he was protector of the purebloods, i wonder what that means, maybe he protects the purebloods who turned humans to slaves long ago? Who would be this purebloods, reminiscent of pb of this nature is Sara though... Maybe Sara is also an ancestor? So then if all connects, then Hanadagi should be protecting Sara of some sort... wonder why she went to him...she was able to unlock the seal on his castle so easily too.

Ah..I'm sorry I hope I'm making sense. anyway just an idea.

Hanadagi's awakening was also preempted by Sara.. I wonder why... and Kaname watching over his awakening...maybe Kaname knew Sara will one day get powers from one of the protectors (hana) and kaname was watching out for this? anyway just an idea.

aya-chan wrote: I just wonder who gave BR to kaien? we know kaien gave BR to zero, but who gave it to him? My guess is kaname gave BR to kaien to give it to zero - zero was already included in kaname chess game. then kaien wasn't a vampire hunter anymore, so he shouldn't had that gun at him, only if the hunter association give it to him special for zero.
One thing I am sure, kaien had Artemis from kaname, since Artemis was a weapon who remain in kuran familly.

aya~ its me. i wonder too. probably it happened during the times Zero came to the academy, because both weapons BR and artemis were from kaname and he gave them both to yuki and zero when they became prefects. kaname probably the one who gave it to kaien.

Did not poison her but weakened her (if she took it, she looks like this though, as she was pale prior to visiting the hunters. It decreased her rejuvenating ability and even though it took her time to die, eventually she could not rejunevate from it...)
So either she made a new formula with her parts (seeing it from kaname) or took Kaname's ready formula that carried even more power, used it onherself ( both cases made her pale) and then passed it to humans and to the guns before Kaname does it. That's must be the method, I think that she says she discovered...or else her death, being an ancestor remains unjustified.

im wondering...if she was weakened or poisoned from kaname's mixture, she had ripped her heart and she still took long to die? if her healing powers were affected it would've hasten the process, somewhat.

I agree strongly plus Kaname seemed to wait something, in the mean time, I think that he puts Yuuki and tells her the truth to prepare her for what is coming because all these will take an effect later on..

yes he gave her a key.. and he already revealed his past to her. probably knew he was going to be away for some time so he prepped yuki beforehand. i wonder why he didn't tell her the purpose for the key though, he just gave it to her.....how would she know how to use it? lol. its more like safekeeping purposes though...

I believe he intentionally bites her that much so she can take his blood in large quantities and a. grasps the knowledge of the past b. increase her power
in both ways he is gaving power and by leaving also the authority to act on her own from now on.

haha either way the bite scene was damn erotic. and kaname was jealous... he also bite her deeply saying something like "the feeling of being helpless makes one mortifying angry at themselves doesn't it? thats why i gave you artemis for you to realize that.."

You are welcome sweet...you now I have the fun of my life here...going over VK and discovering or discovering things...

ah, please just call me solace here. yes i know how much you like it here haha it does seem nice

Sara comes from a new generation...I think that if that power was common once now it is not because the fanbook suggest that the ancestors had superior power, that now the new lineages don't. But in any case if they had the ability (even in the past or the surviving ancestors or the older generations they would have done it).

As we saw there were a lot of wars involved that eliminated many purebloods family (remember when Kaname tells to Yuuki than now only 30 purebloods remain (including these who left away or went into slumber?) and the Kurans took use of this powers to maintain the peace, with so many purebloods wanting them to step down the throne and consume their power, I doubt that if this power existed in them, they would not have found a way to manipulate it.

Sara is a new batch? I don't know.. she seems to be the only one from the Shirabukis. the other purebloods like Ouri and Isaya seem to be alone too. Plus the Touma's and the others... i wonder how many are sleeping and who among them are one of the progenitor?
Yes i think so too eventually the Kurans will have found a way to use the power to rule their regime peacefully...

Futhermore it is another danger for the Kurans; if their power can be used against them (their blood and flesh) for another pureblood family to make weapons. In a way it's logical that they are so conservative with the pureblods family that surround them and Kaname while Yuuki was still unarmed and naive deteriorate her within the house. The Kurans powers seem to be rather unique and right now are used to regulate peace, imagine the reverse.

yes yes exactly juliet. Imagine if others have the ability to do this too, anyone could just be as capable of becoming king again. You see Haruka and Juri keep to themselves in a basement...power wise i dont think others can be capable of killing them easily, but if another pureblood tries to its possible...especially if it comes unexpectedly like what Rido did when he betrayed them...it was an outside attack, he took their baby and led attack to their house... maybe in the past with the kurans the same thing happened. the tight circle of tradition within their line also predisposes them to risks...

Perhaps that's the reason that Aidou's dad says that the sword "cursed". Indeed it has served the enemies by now.

Also Aidou's dad says that Kaname can not wield it, thus his ability is affected/ the sword seems to draw from him too much energy.

yes i also wonder where he was keeping the sword during the time it was gone and if there was a particular reason why he used it specifically to kill Hanadagi and not artemis or another weapon? it seems to be special.

If Sara wanted to affect solely Kaname's tablets she could because from Takuma she knows that Kaname takes different tablets from the rest of the vampires and because if the tablets could alterate the quality of his blood, obviously his powers would be affected.

i didnt realize that before, so true.. sara could easily do that. good analysis :bom:

In the same concept she can create tablets that will affect the mass/the popular tables that they take. They would affect the more common vampires because their resistance in blood lust lessens according to their level.
That would explain the crazy incidents that happen in town but aslo the increased blood lust scenes that we seeing with Zero as his vampire side dominates him more.
In the same time her army (that she wants to make) could become stronger and more resistant as she could feed her with her blood (that contain Ouris power)...
and she would have disorganized both Kaname and Zerom hitting them at the spot. If that's her plan, I must admit she is briliant.

yes sara is brilliant indeed haha she went for the main stream literally, by manipulating and tainting the supply to her wishes she can easily gain control over the entire vampire race.. (omigod if this is what hino plan, she's also very cleaver :lol:)

juliet wrote: Nina, that's a very good remark, it seems that Hanadagi was a threat (or why would Kaname try to eliminate him) as he was in a slumber for a real long time, it seems that Kaname should be acquainted with the family from the long past. Even though he was in a preety good shape when he woke up but if he is from the ancestor's time, he should have slept ages after Kaname.

By the way did you noticed him? he was a beast? taller and bigger than Kaname, like a mountain, lol...

As he casted a spell on Aidou's dad he couldn't have the best intentions.

Well another additional reason for Kaname to kill Hanadagi might be his state … Sara took his heart meaning he had to kill someone (drain him till death) to restore his ability to regenerate … he was a moving threat.

He went to slumber 500 years before so I suppose not only ages before Kaname did but centuries or millenniums! His servant said his intentions were to awake after another 400 years …

I didn’t notice he was taller and bigger than Kaname before you mention it lol … indeed … he gives me the chills …

Another thing … we don’t know for sure what it was his special PB ability and if Kaname took some part of it, since for Sara is a given …
I suspect his ability has something to do with “hypnosis” –mental control through spells further more powerful than the common one all the PBs have …

1. As you said Aidou dono seemed like was hypnotised and Kaname awaken him.
2. The incident with the hypnotised/still doll child >>> Yuuki broke that spell >> it might be Sara behind the curtain … still don’t know.
3. Ruka and Akatsuki referring to his castle as “sleeping” maybe just cuz all of them are in slumber or cuz his PB ability … just a thought lol.

Juliet wrote: Did not poison her but weakened her (if she took it, she looks like this though, as she was pale prior to visiting the hunters. It decreased her rejuvenating ability and even though it took her time to die, eventually she could not rejunevate from it...)

I didn’t mean literally poisoned but like the first hit, as an anti-vw does before the final blow to the head or the heart … like the formula played the role of a prior anti-vampire weapon.
Otherwise as you said why hooded woman died just because her heart was taken? No … we know that it takes more than that for a PB to die …
I don’t know if I make any sense here …

Juliet wrote: I believe he intentionally bites her that much so she can take his blood in large quantities and a. grasps the knowledge of the past b. increase her power

Lol I also had the same feeling … the punishment act was a cover …

Juliet wrote: Futhermore it is another danger for the Kurans; if their power can be used against them (their blood and flesh) for another pureblood family to make weapons. In a way it's logical that they are so conservative with the pureblods family that surround them and Kaname while Yuuki was still unarmed and naive deteriorate her within the house. The Kurans powers seem to be rather unique and right now are used to regulate peace, imagine the reverse.

Totally agree …
The vampire society is build on power >>> fear … your remark applies also to the fact why every one feared Kaname so much, plus why all the PBs we saw thus far aiming for him or Yuuki … the Kuran's blood is special!

aya-chan wrote: But I don't want to stay in line I will kidnap him

Then I think the 3rd WW it follows !!!!

sweetsolace wrote: At the time Ruka and Kain went to see his guardian as seen from the posted link, it said that he had been sleeping for 500 years and was not yet supposed to wake up in 400 years. (hmm so pureblood slumber takes around 900 years?) hanadagi had been sleeping for 500 years....

I think they can control/decide in advance the time gap of their slumber, cuz Isaya was sleeping only for 50 years and it makes sense cuz otherwise he couldn’t know Cross (> shorter life span than 900 years I suppose)

http://www.mangareader.net/104-47679-12/vampire-knight/chapter-58.html

sweetsolace wrote: Kaname as a progenitor goes back around more than 10,000 years ago, so if going by theory Kaname slept for the last 9000 years or somewhere in between, say he ruled the kingdom for a few centuries then went to sleep, that makes his slumber around 6000-8000years.
And if Hanadagi was currently sleeping for the last 500 years (as was currently known) and he's supposed to be the progenitor he was probably awake during the last 9500 years or so (im the only one saying this by the way

You mean that Kaname and Hanadagi could be old acquaintances ? I do have the same feeling.

Also, it was mentioned that Hanadagi is the only member of his bloodline (Hm i will still search where this was said... ).. Not mentioned if his members were killed through the years

Hanadagi had a family … they went all of them into slumber … I suppose they still sleeping …

http://www.mangareader.net/104-19604-22/vampire-knight/chapter-52.html

Sorry in advance if you meant something else …

he was protector of the purebloods, i wonder what that means, maybe he protects the purebloods who turned humans to slaves long ago? Who would be this purebloods, reminiscent of pb of this nature is Sara though... Maybe Sara is also an ancestor? So then if all connects, then Hanadagi should be protecting Sara of some sort... wonder why she went to him...she was able to unlock the seal on his castle so easily too.

Probably he and his clan were against the ideology of the Kurans >>> not to turn human into vampires … at least this is what I assumed from servant’s words.
Now Sara, even if she knew that they shared the same view she isn’t fool to believe that Hanadagi will let her be the Queen since he was an ancestor and she is newbie PB.

Hanadagi's awakening was also preempted by Sara.. I wonder why... and Kaname watching over his awakening...maybe Kaname knew Sara will one day get powers from one of the protectors (hana) and kaname was watching out for this? anyway just an idea.

That’s a good question … why Kaname let her gain more power since he could easily kill Hanadagi by himself ???? :sleep:

For a pureblood to die I think they need to have there heart taken and also there blood drained, at least that is how shizuka was killed by kaname after she was shot by zero, havent seen this enacted with out the av weapon however so there is no way to prove it, however the female ancester did continue to go around giveing out blood after she threw her heart in.

To sweetsolace :

It's not state when ,nor how long Kaname entered his slumber yet . But I estimate from 1000 to 2000 years ago . Because if he was Juuri's grandfather ( the Vampire King she mentioned in the bonus story of the umbrella incident ) and she was a little less than 3000 years when she died . He had to be awake for him to grant her desire to went to a human -only - place for 3 years .

Hanadagi could had being one of the original purebloods vampires . Nothing to say in the contrary yet .

Izaya has 2000 years old . He appears to take short time slumbers ( like one season long -2 or 3 months tops ) . But the last one was 50 years long .

Sara is a newbie pureblood vampire . Maybe she is the second ( or 3rd if including Kaname after returning to a baby body ) youngest one . Her fiancee Ouri was a lot older then her .

Kaien Cross is around 250 to 275 years old . He stop aging around 225 years ago .He probably stop aging when he got to adulthood as a pureblood vampire ( around 25 years old ) . He said in a bonus chapter he stop aging 200 years ago . Then around 25 years more passad from his statement to the present in V . K. ( Yagari had around 10 years during that scene . Now he is around 35 years old . )


To Nina :

When your talking about blood tablets , I imagine something . This is only especulation . Maybe the way she could have tampered Kaname's blood tablets with a similar mechanism as creating the anti - vampire weapons . Adding some of her body / blood to the pills formula . So now those tablets act aomewhat similar to an anti - vampire weapon . Inhibiting the healing and regeneration power of a vampire .

Your idea of the blood tablets ( the regular common formula ) is very probable .

nina wrote:
Well another additional reason for Kaname to kill Hanadagi might be his state … Sara took his heart meaning he had to kill someone (drain him till death) to restore his ability to regenerate … he was a moving threat.

I think they can control/decide in advance the time gap of their slumber, cuz Isaya was sleeping only for 50 years and it makes sense cuz otherwise he couldn’t know Cross (> shorter life span than 900 years I suppose)

http://www.mangareader.net/104-47679-12/vampire-knight/chapter-58.html

thats very possible i havent thought of that before.

Kaname's slumber
For kaname since it gives me impression he was sleeping through centuries ever since he decided, and only woke up when Rido resurrected him.. and it was mentioned that 10,000years (10 millennia) has passed since the climate change so let's say subtract 1 millennium for the time he spent with the people of the village and time with the hooded woman as well as the war between humans and vampires, then another 1-3 millennia for his rule as first king, that means Kaname has been sleeping for 6-7 centuries...i imagine his thirst will be so great.
Hanadagi was mentioned to have only slept for 500years (5centuries) and won't wake up for another 400, hmm I wonder if this average length of time for sleeping has anything to do with moderating the amount of their thirst so it's manageable? Kaname said he had no intentions of waking up in his sleep, so probably his awakening was not planned and became disastrous.. As for Hanadagi's awakening it was rather immature and unplanned so I imagine he was not that thirsty.

3. Ruka and Akatsuki referring to his castle as “sleeping” maybe just cuz all of them are in slumber or cuz his PB ability … just a thought lol.

Hanadagi had a family … they went all of them into slumber … I suppose they still sleeping …

http://www.mangareader.net/104-19604-22/vampire-knight/chapter-52.html

Sorry in advance if you meant something else …

it was mentioned that Hanadagi is the only member of his family so he is the only one sleeping i guess

Spoiler:

wouldn't really wonder why its called sleeping castle...it was located under the bottom of a ravine surrounded by dead trees, Ruka remarked it looked so solemn as if it was sleeping.. And if Hanadagi is the only member he must suffer from loneliness a lot probably he sleeps through it a lot too

The vampire society is build on power >>> fear … your remark applies also to the fact why every one feared Kaname so much, plus why all the PBs we saw thus far aiming for him or Yuuki … the Kuran's blood is special!

yes Kuran blood is special in many ways, its said to be a tonic that restores youth, a "medicine" that delays level E condition, and potent liquid that gives power/strength. I imagine the Kurans are like walking pieces of priceless artifacts...some kind of endangered species hunted for their worth :bom: imagine what kaname has to endure through the years like this haha...

That’s a good question … why Kaname let her gain more power since he could easily kill Hanadagi by himself ???? :sleep:

I think Kaname is avoiding unnecessary death (hanadagi and maybe even nagamichi). he was probably doing the same thing he done with Rido: watch and wait for right time...in rido, he waited until Rido made his move and possessed Shiki's body to go to the academy. Kaname could easily revive him and set up Zero to kill him but he waited that far until all pieces was in place.

It was also mentioned that attacking a pureblood in their castle was like a "declaration of war"

Spoiler:

knowing kaname he probably refrained from doing this until he knew what sara was up to, and as he probably suspected she did what he thought she would....

mariangie wrote:To sweetsolace :
It's not state when ,nor how long Kaname entered his slumber yet . But I estimate from 1000 to 2000 years ago . Because if he was Juuri's grandfather ( the Vampire King she mentioned in the bonus story of the umbrella incident ) and she was a little less than 3000 years when she died. He had to be awake for him to grant her desire to went to a human -only - place for 3 years .

I base it on what aido said in one chapter(still searching for it ) that 10 millenia has passed since the climate change and that was when Kaname and other purebloods started mobilizing..
assuming kaname became a lord of a village, was kicked out, met the woman and battled against humans in the war all within 1 millenium.
It's not clear whether kaname is the great grandfather or just grandfather of juri. but we can base on juri's age which is 3000 (and she looks around her early/late twenties) 1+3= 4 millenia minus on the 10millenia period. If average timeframe of one kuran generation is 3 millenia base on juri's age (she already had two children and she sounded like she was already aged at that age too..) then at least two Kuran generation has passed since Kaname slept.. assuming..
(approx. 1 millenium for era of pre-rule, maybe less?)
original Kuran - Kaname - time of monarchy
1st generation (3millenia)- Juri's grandfather (one of kaname's son probably) I recall he was known to have ended monarchy ruling..
2nd generation (3millenia)- Juri's parents (not mentioned)
3rd generation (3millenia + additional centuries for Haruka and Rido's age)- Juri, haruka, rido
Last generation - Yuki (and kaname as ancestor)

=10 millenia(10,000yrs) had passed since the climate change

Hanadagi could had being one of the original purebloods vampires . Nothing to say in the contrary yet .
Izaya has 2000 years old . He appears to take short time slumbers ( like one season long -2 or 3 months tops ) . But the last one was 50 years long .
Sara is a newbie pureblood vampire . Maybe she is the second ( or 3rd if including Kaname after returning to a baby body ) youngest one . Her fiancee Ouri was a lot older then her .

I think Hanadagi timed his sleep around 900 years and informed his guardian(black haired lady) about it. So 500years ago when he was awake what was he doing? LOL. he is the only member of the family so he probably isnt doing much...if he is one of the progenitors then he's been awake for the most time, doesnt seem to make sense.
Sara looks young to me, but her mind isn't. i think she is also a new batch...

Kaien Cross is around 250 to 275 years old . He stop aging around 225 years ago .He probably stop aging when he got to adulthood as a pureblood vampire ( around 25 years old ) . He said in a bonus chapter he stop aging 200 years ago . Then around 25 years more passad from his statement to the present in V . K. ( Yagari had around 10 years during that scene . Now he is around 35 years old . )

ah yes, great analysis, I sum it up and it does fit your data. Kaien was also around Juri when she was pregnant with Yuki, and around when isaya was still awake, and also when Yagari was young.

mariangie wrote: To Nina :

When your talking about blood tablets , I imagine something . This is only especulation . Maybe the way she could have tampered Kaname's blood tablets with a similar mechanism as creating the anti - vampire weapons . Adding some of her body / blood to the pills formula . So now those tablets act aomewhat similar to an anti - vampire weapon . Inhibiting the healing and regeneration power of a vampire .

Yes … that would totally serve her goal, since she can’t wield an anti-vampire weapon to give the final blow. It’s like she replaces the hand of a hunter.

You know I’m anxious to see how Sara will materialize her plan! We all have great expectations of her! XD

swetsolace wrote: I think Kaname is avoiding unnecessary death (hanadagi and maybe even nagamichi). he was probably doing the same thing he done with Rido: watch and wait for right time...in rido, he waited until Rido made his move and possessed Shiki's body to go to the academy. Kaname could easily revive him and set up Zero to kill him but he waited that far until all pieces was in place.

Yes agreed. Kaname is definitely trying to avoid unnecessary killings.

The difference between Rido’s case and Hanadagi’s, is that Sara gained more power by “allowing” her to take the heart. She already took the powers of two PBs.
My impression is he let her for the time been in order to expose herself on her own, since thus far she moves quite behind the scenes. It also seems like he want to take all the blame for now … I don’t know if he’s doing it on purpose or he doesn’t care at this point what the others will think.
A shallow approach could lead that Kaname and Sara are allies, cuz he covered her butt after Ouri’s murder, left her grow stronger and he didn’t questioning about Takuma’s “choice” to live with her.
Maybe he letting her do the “dirty” work … ha ha!

sweetsolace wrote: It was also mentioned that attacking a pureblood in their castle was like a "declaration of war"

Thanks for the link. I think he doesn’t give a damn if Touma receive his “attack” at his castle as declaration of war!
But this could apply to Hanadagi’s case. ;)

Juliet wrote: I believe he intentionally bites her that much so she can take his blood in large quantities and a. grasps the knowledge of the past b. increase her power

I forgot to mention before, that this “preparation” is kinda like with what he did in the 1st arc … he gave his blood to Zero and told him ... "My blood protects Yuuki" ... but this time Yuuki received his blood-shield directly since now is a vampire! I like so much the idea he can protect her through his blood … and I was wondering how he left her uncovered, but I was wrong!

The difference between Rido’s case and Hanadagi’s, is that Sara gained more power by “allowing” her to take the heart. She already took the powers of two PBs.

Ι really wonder about that point, I would put the scans but my internet is slow so I just phrase them to save time;

kaname at the ball suspects that Sara did something with Ouri, the page where he kisses her hand and tells her that she came with the smell of her last meal or something like that, then at the scan where the hunters find the vampire hunter's ashes, Kaname has a certain look that gives away that he knows what happened there...

So he covers Sara's plan again...
Then in Hanadagi's case Sara says "I want the hunter's hand" and Kaname appears and kills Hanadagi. Not so much of a coincidence since Kaname knew that something was happening at the castle (kain and Ruka told him that there is movement) and when he leaves Yuuki, he says "It's time".
When Kain and Ruka leave they obviously go to Hanadagi's castle, and wait for Kaname to appear.

My impression is he let her for the time been in order to expose herself on her own, since thus far she moves quite behind the scenes.

Kaname lets Sara get away again and takes the burden of the Hanadagi's murder on his shoulders since Sara is not exposed at all as it seems. She is relaxing at the sofa (chapter 71, last page) receiving invintations for Takuma joining the nightclass.
What is happening here? what about Hanadagi's loyal guardian? the hunters did not talk to her?

It also seems like he want to take all the blame for now … I don’t know if he’s doing it on purpose or he doesn’t care at this point what the others will think.
A shallow approach could lead that Kaname and Sara are allies, cuz he covered her butt after Ouri’s murder, left her grow stronger and he didn’t questioning about Takuma’s “choice” to live with her.
Maybe he letting her do the “dirty” work … ha ha!

It's the profound idea, Kaname and Sara allies in this, devouring and consuming the strongest purebloods' powers to rule the world...

I don't know why he lets her grow her powers.

Sara thanks Ouri for giving her the power to break Hanadagi's castle's seal so in her plan apart from using his powers to get stronger, she also uses his power for the next step of her plan.

Apparently Kaname was already at the castle when Sara takes the heart, or he could have been, if he had wanted to protect Hanadagi, but he had no intention, apparently, he also wanted Hanadagi dead, I assume, he offers the final blow to the pureblood...

Vampire power + extracted heart= death for purebloods

Now as to why Kaname wanted Hanadagi dead there are many speculations
Hanadagi could be a threat but he had a lot of years to go before waking so this possibility now that I think of it is slight...

Plus Hanadagi as mentioned was a protector of the purebloods? now that sounds like he is at the right track.
Not to mention that Ouri, who Sara killed, had also peaceful intentions being so bored with his life that he even permitted Sara to kill him.

So two peaceful (with all reservation) purebloods are dead and Kaname is also involved in the second murder.

Hanadagi had also his guardian and she could feed him, I think that he should be able to regenerate, slowly but again...

But what would Hanadagi had done if he had survived? I just thought, he would have gone after Sara because her invasion and her attack, is a clear declaration of war as Touma says to Kaname.

So perhaps Kaname protected Sara there in order for her to go on with her plan?

It's a possibility that I do not believe it's true but it's again easily assumed by the facts.

It almost seems like Kaname's unexplained actions set the wheels in motion by making Sara strong and also Yuuki strong (Aidou's dad murder now swifts the power from his hands to Yuuki and the nightclass) so to bring this two camps in straight opposition.

But I am sure that there must be more underlying reasons, simply because with Kaname (LOL), nothing is what it appears to be...

Juliet wrote: I believe he intentionally bites her that much so she can take his blood in large quantities and a. grasps the knowledge of the past b. increase her power

I forgot to mention before, that this “preparation” is kinda like with what he did in the 1st arc … he gave his blood to Zero and told him ... "My blood protects Yuuki" ... but this time Yuuki received his blood-shield directly since now is a vampire! I like so much the idea he can protect her through his blood … and I was wondering how he left her uncovered, but I was wrong!
[/quote]

If you remember at a point where Yuuki sleeps at his hands and while she travels to his memories, kaname says ; "Yuuki I already know what path you shall follow. What you've already done for me, should be enough"... that's how much? Hours after the biting scene?

So at the biting scene, I believe that he already knows that Yuuki is ready to follow her path. His decision to let her go and spread her wings seems to had been formed during his dialogue with Rido, where his contradiction, his hesitation about what he should do, (let her go or capture her) appears strongly. But, I think that he decides it there, feeling profoundly torn between the two.

Yet, Yuuki's path is a Kuran's path, like Yuuri who protected and guarded, so Yuuki, as a part of that family, shall follow thw ways of her ancestors.
So perhaps her judgement to serve the purebloods as the reaper as wrong, but it was still the identication, that her Kuran nature-the one that regulates peace- has come into light.
kaname seems not even to agree with that, as he says that this is a "lost cause", yet he leaves her to take the path she wants, that deep down is not that different from the path, he took once to fight and protect the weak and innoncents from the intentions of the strong.
So yes, the biting scene, I believe was along with his own despair and agony to fill himself with her, taking supplies for his lonely way, a way to force her take great amounts of his blood that would give her natural power and knowledge to sustain what was coming.

@Kaname allies with Sara or covering up for her
several things go against that:
>So what was the purpose of kidnapping Takuma? Sara went through all that trouble to watch and take him when the time comes to "find out more about Kaname". She interrogated him to tell her more about Kaname, which she would not do if she's already allies with him.

Spoiler:

only allies cover for each other. Also. Allies don't figure out what the other plans because their plan is the same.

>you mean, this "look" of Kaname when he realize something in chapter 54?

Spoiler:

-it looks more of enlightenment, a "eureka" or "aha! I was right" look. He did let Seiren watch over Ouri, at least what it looks like. He expected something would go wrong.
>or this look in chapter 56? that you think he's covering up for her?

Spoiler:

-it looks more like he feels sad/apprehensive Yuki was interested in the murder that happened, prior to that Kaname didn't want Yuki to be near any traces of Sara or the murder scene. He didn't want her to get involved.

>it's a wonder in the first place why Kaname would have Seiren watch over the drawing room where Ouri is. Some sort of expectation from him? So you're saying Kaname knew Sara will do what was "planned", or something he expected she would do something wrong?
So why was there a need to question her afterwards, he could've just said: "Is it done? Are you sure you made no mistake?"

Spoiler:

>yuki's thoughts that whatever is lurking in ouri's case, someone's "hiding it from her"(ch56) Kaname dodged the question when Yuki asked him, but there was no implied that he was hiding what happened to her. Again, Kaname didn't want her to get involved. He'd been showing he wanted to keep Yuki out of that matter ever since the party.

>IMO, Yuki, Zero and Kaname all smelled the blood scent that Sara had right after killing Hanadagi, but only Kaname suspected she would do something wrong, later questioned it by asking her, to which he didn't get a proper answer. His suspicions were confirmed when Seiren comes back and tells him that she smelled blood from the drawing room, and he verified this suspicion by asking Sara again.

*my theory why Kaname "let her get away with it"
Sara knew Kaname won't attack her at that moment... She says "if i were kaname sama i would leave my enemy alone..
ch56

Spoiler:

>sara’s words needing a hunters hand and getting the heart to get the most power

Spoiler:

i think she rather meant to take the heart and escape...but in the middle of that Hanadagi woke up, from which she already took the heart. Sara explained the need to have a hunter’s hand to kill hanadagi which i think she was meaning to do now he was waken, but she already got what she wanted so she escaped.

>Kaname killing Hanadagi
Hanadagi was "low in power" when his heart was gone, and wanted to restore it by controlling Nagamichi so he could drink his blood. **forgot- Hana. said his throat was dry..so i think indicates he's thirsty at least, that's why sara brought blood offering (either the guardian or naga.)*

Spoiler:

If Hana's power was restored by drinking blood, he would be alive, right, and prematurely awake. Since Kaname decided to fulfill his original plan i think he started with Hana and killed him on the spot.

>Kaname killing Nagamichi
Clearly, they were talking about purebloods not supposed to revered and feared.. kaname said who decided it has to be that way?
Then they talked about something, Naga. closed his eyes after hearing it and Kaname lopped off his head. This piece is missing and needs to be explained later, everybody's confused why he did that. and i dont think its related to naga being witness to any murder.

about Kaname prepping Yuki

Spoiler:

>I think what he means here is what Yuki will decide when Kaname leaves: that she will take artemis, find him and make a better name for herself. That "yuki has already done so much for me", Kaname also said this before to her, I think this time he means if he knew what she was going to do and it was for him, he thought she shouldn't do more. Because Kaname said Yuki staying by his side was enough.

>in chapter 60 when Kaname had his contradictions, he had Rido tell him that this contradictions are what makes him up, Kaname didn't actually decide what to do with it because the incident with Touma interrupted his thoughts.

>in chapter 66, Kaname gave Yuki an important "key" she should keep. He didn't say why or what that key will open... then later on he asked her what she is to him as if wanting to know something before he set out on his mission. I think this is where they both have doubts with each other. For Kaname's part, I think he's already laying out the groundwork for his original plans and weighs his feelings for Yuki to see what it truly was for him, he lays out his options so he can decide instantly later on IMO (which was what he did after he killed Naga., says "I chose to stay with her however I decided to fulfill my original plans")

@Sara's intentions
She does say she wants to become queen. But she also says that she wants "soldiers who will become her hands and feet"

Spoiler:

I think this strengthens the notion that Sara wants to gather her forces first to have enough army to take Kaname. Hanadagi in ch67 describes her as a "weak little girl", probably her strength lies on her ability to deceive others. If she's weak, then she needs power--she took Ouri's heart to gain access to Hanadagi (with his implied consent, it said), then she took Hanadagi's heart to gain more power. She has tampered with the blood tablets and has a whole harem school. Now she plans to go to the night class with her girls. She is becoming more significantly stronger and the image of Queen is not far from her: she has a flock of courtiers before her (harem), she has power, and now for her "soldiers"...which i have a feeling she will get from the night class.

A Chess Game (instead of an alliance)
at beginning of chapter 55 this was shown

Spoiler:

also this in chapter 65

Spoiler:

Sara describes it as a game where they will eat each other... which looking at chess seems to be that way.
Sara, with her minion of slaves and the blood tablets
Kaname, with his original plans
and Yuki with her night class restart.

@Kaname allies with Sara or covering up for her
several things go against that:
>So what was the purpose of kidnapping Takuma? Sara went through all that trouble to watch and take him when the time comes to "find out more about Kaname". She interrogated him to tell her more about Kaname, which she would not do if she's already allies with him.

Obviously they are not allies, as much as this theory is going around at the internet or the recent incidents can indicate as such, I do not believe that there is room for it either. But is good to add it at the list and analyze it as we come down with arguments.

The unfortunate things is that at the eyes of the hunters, they can appear as they are allies, still I do not understand if the hunters do not know about Saras’ intrusion in Hanadagis castle or they have not openly mentioned yet of her role in the story.

So you're saying Kaname knew Sara will do what was "planned", or something he expected she would do something wrong? So why was there a need to question her afterwards, he could've just said: "Is it done? Are you sure you made no mistake?"

No, before the murder I do not believe he had any idea of what Sara was preparing to do…but afterwards I think that he connected all the pieces together. Here is the scan that I meant;




He looks confident enough, he knows that Sara might have killed Ouri but the question is why does he leave her going on with her plan? to see her next part of the action...he does see it with Hanadagi.

Personally i think that Sara's plan until now serves kaname's plans...how I have no idea, but he is not crazy going around killing without reasoning. In Hanadagi's case there must have been a reason also. I hope that the new chapter will tell us more about Hanadagi's involvement and powers that Sara consumed.

I think what he means here is what Yuki will decide when Kaname leaves: that she will take artemis, find him and make a better name for herself. That "yuki has already done so much for me", Kaname also said this before to her, I think this time he means if he knew what she was going to do and it was for him, he thought she shouldn't do more. Because Kaname said Yuki staying by his side was enough.

Apparently Yuuki’s role in the story, which is not different from Kaname’s , or her parents and her ancestors, the role of the peacemaker, between vampire race and hunters, is also finally unfold.
It is not radomn, that in such an hour where Kaname is gone, Yuuki decided to support the role he had in the society and his name. I mean, in general is in their “genes” to (with Rido’s exception) maintain peace.

So it could not be difficult for Kaname to know the path she will take or the path she would choose. As I said before and allow me to believe it, Yuuki’s idea to help the innocents against the desires of the purebloods is an indication of her future path.
Kaname recognizes that overall in Yuuki; It is time to spread her wings, thus his contradiction and his sadness in Rido scene.
In order to support her role and her decision, he needs to reveal his real identity, show her his past, stop hesitating, as Rido said, to reveal his true nature.
In this scene with Rido all these thoughts are in his mind. They are going around and then the incident with Touma, as you say happens.
Showing his past, revealing who he is trully is, is now necessary in order to shield her with knowledge and power, from the future bad things and the difficulties that will occur in the future.
Therefore I draw the conclusion that he had already decided to leave prior to the biting scene. When Yuuki is sleeping, Kaname mentions that he knows her future decision, so isn’t that a clue that he had decided it? I tend to think yes and I want to believe it. Why?
Because it colors better his actions; biting scene, decision to reveal his true nature/ agony about how he sees him after she has found out the truth. He won’t be around much long and he needs to know.
All these say to me that he had predecided it. Now before Touma, after Touma, but I think before the biting scene, yes. That’s why he is acting so passionate about it and needs her to know now of the truth.
Anyway, yes that’s an interpretation of the series of the events that took place. I just find it more complete.

For Kaname's part, I think he's already laying out the groundwork for his original plans and weighs his feelings for Yuki to see what it truly was for him, he lays out his options so he can decide instantly later on IMO (which was what he did after he killed Naga., says "I chose to stay with her however I decided to fulfill my original plans")

But if it so, what changed his mind at the specific time? The fact that Yuuki witnessed Hanadagi’s murder? And on that instant he took such an important decision? It sounds more like an explanation to her because she caught him on the act. Anyway, the one does not exclude the other, Kaname could have taken his decision to leave (since he shows her the past, gives her the key) and still be feeling hesitant about it, after Yuuki tells him to “start over” again.
But when she steps in, he realizes that now he has no choice but to go on with his plans…so the two parts bridge with each other.

Now she plans to go to the night class with her girls. She is becoming more significantly stronger and the image of Queen is not far from her: she has a flock of courtiers before her (harem), she has power, and now for her "soldiers"...which i have a feeling she will get from the night class.

I hope that Yuuki wont intentionally feed Sara with more “power”. Now that Yuuki is alone, is she going to be Sara’s next target? It could be possible as we see her wanting to move in the nightclass.
Also Yuuki's decision to bring Takuma to nightclaass is risky. Does she know? Need new chapter..

nina wrote:
Yes agreed. Kaname is definitely trying to avoid unnecessary killings.
The difference between Rido’s case and Hanadagi’s, is that Sara gained more power by “allowing” her to take the heart. She already took the powers of two PBs.
My impression is he let her for the time been in order to expose herself on her own, since thus far she moves quite behind the scenes. It also seems like he want to take all the blame for now … I don’t know if he’s doing it on purpose or he doesn’t care at this point what the others will think.
A shallow approach could lead that Kaname and Sara are allies, cuz he covered her butt after Ouri’s murder, left her grow stronger and he didn’t questioning about Takuma’s “choice” to live with her.
Maybe he letting her do the “dirty” work … ha ha!

Ah I skipped this...yes it's very possible too. Kaname letting her for the time being didn't really do much to expose herself, I think by doing that it actually risked his name to the hunters since it was his party where the incident happened, and when he killed hanadagi and aido he was the one caught in the act.
If Kaname is letting her get away with it intentionally, he is risking a lot in the process even the fact he will be hunted by hunters.
If Kaname is allies with her, its fairly easy to say everything was planned. wondering why he didn't question takuma's choice to live with her? i remember he sent an invite to takuma for the Kuran party, knowing where he lives, which is at sara's house, so kaname probably knew about their alliance and didn't do anything. for what reason is the question

juliet wrote:
The unfortunate things is that at the eyes of the hunters, they can appear as they are allies, still I do not understand if the hunters do not know about Saras’ intrusion in Hanadagis castle or they have not openly mentioned yet of her role in the story.

Yes true, i think the hunters is still at the point where they are suspecting sara's intentions. and before that became bigger, kaname's actions towards hanadagi and nagamichi stirred the society and instilled panic so now they are focusing on him.

He looks confident enough, he knows that Sara might have killed Ouri but the question is why does he leave her going on with her plan? to see her next part of the action...he does see it with Hanadagi.

yes another view point..fairly possible. however his expression doesn't look like confidence to me, it's more like "hmm...Sara what are you planning now?" It does seem like he leaves her going on with her plan but what was the monitoring the Hanadagi movement through Kain and Ruka for? ever since the incident after Rido, he must know the Hanadagi will become a target eventually. When they reported there was movement, Kaname set out to move, when he arrived I believe it was too late and he had only witnessed Hana controlling Aido so he opted to kill him to prevent that.

Personally i think that Sara's plan until now serves kaname's plans...

that is one way to look at it. However I think it's more that Sara's plan doesn't interest Kaname at the least (as he envisioned it probably) so he doesn't take much extreme to prevent her, maybe only did when Aido asked him to. As Sara said if she was thinking like Kaname, she would only move when her wrath is provoked. Kaname is not yet provoked until Yuki is involved i think, hence he is dealing with Sara on his way.
Also Kaname is not careless, he waits before he acts, and his movements are limited because where Sara executes her plans is not actually the best place for him to jump in and prevent her(party, hanadagi's castle)

All these say to me that he had predecided it. Now before Touma, after Touma, but I think before the biting scene, yes. That’s why he is acting so passionate about it and needs her to know now of the truth.

I think Kaname decided "this decision" when he gave artemis to Yuki to make her realize something (that no matter what she does there are something's that can't be helped).
After that Rido appeared to him as his contradictions...he formed the layout there as you said, deciding it was time to free Yuki from his tutelage and "shield", then Touma's vision interrupted him, he punished Touma saying "she needs to taste bitter medicine too".
Kaname then reveals to her the reason why he gave her artemis, how he doesn't want that tragedy happen another time, and ultimately decide to give her a view of his past.
Kaname says he knows the path she's going to take, but that Yuki has "already done enough [for him]"
Kaname gives her the key to keep it..and asks her what she is to him. And decides to start over. but decides against it later on (hence, saying "sorry and goodbye")
This all looks like a premonition that he was going to leave her for some time.

But if it so, what changed his mind at the specific time? The fact that Yuuki witnessed Hanadagi’s murder? And on that instant he took such an important decision? It sounds more like an explanation to her because she caught him on the act.

You're suggesting Kaname trying to hide the act so he made an excuse to her when she caught him?so what was all the prior effort of him trying to reveal everything to her?
I think it was more narrative than an explanation. Before that he asked Yuki what she truly was to him, saying he would rather hear it from her rather than guessing, it seems he was sorting out how Yuki viewed him as he is to help his decision later on. The moment he killed hanadagi I think he already saw the condition of the purebloods, saying "who said purebloods should be revered and feared?" and he made his decision there. He confirmed it after he killed Aido.

I hope that Yuuki wont intentionally feed Sara with more “power”. Now that Yuuki is alone, is she going to be Sara’s next target? It could be possible as we see her wanting to move in the nightclass.
Also Yuuki's decision to bring Takuma to nightclaass is risky. Does she know? Need new chapter..

yes let's hope. Until yuki knows what Sara's up to she won't be aware of the consequences of whatever she decides with her. Yuki is very susceptible right now and it would help if someone knows what Sara plans.

WOW! juli and sweetsolace you’ve done a magnificent job!

Juliet you’ve changed “armory” ?! ha ha no I’m kidding I get your point!
That’s why I said a shallow approach might lead to conclusions Kaname and Sara are allies!
Sweetsolace great presentation … of course Kaname isn’t collaborator with Sara, but all the scenes you’ve showed are proofs for the readers, not for the hunters. As you said …

sweetsolace wrote: yes it's very possible too. Kaname letting her for the time being didn't really do much to expose herself, I think by doing that it actually risked his name to the hunters since it was his party where the incident happened, and when he killed hanadagi and aido he was the one caught in the act.
If Kaname is letting her get away with it intentionally, he is risking a lot in the process even the fact he will be hunted by hunters.

Exactly … The hunters suspect Sara for Ouri’s murder, they know she turned girls into vampires and they know she is planning something cuz she visited the president of the pharmacy company. The question is … where is Hanadagi’s servant? She is the only one who could inform the hunters about Sara’s involvement … did they take her for interrogation? If not where did she go?

As you said he’s taking the risk the hunters go after him … Or … another theory

… Cross said to Yuuki “he isn’t the same Kaname” … I have the feeling that Cross words and stance was to prevent Yuuki to go after him. Maybe he doesn’t know what exactly Kaname’s original plan is, but he might have a slight idea … I have difficulties to believe he sees Kaname as a villain and that’s why he is acting in a formal way (like he had to do as the head of the hunters), but in fact he doesn’t hunting him … Hmm Cross also is full of mysteries … do you think there is a possibility he is on his side like he did in the 1st arc?

About Sara …

juliet wrote:He looks confident enough, he knows that Sara might have killed Ouri but the question is why does he leave her going on with her plan? to see her next part of the action...he does see it with Hanadagi.

sweetsolace wrote: yes another view point..fairly possible. however his expression doesn't look like confidence to me, it's more like "hmm...Sara what are you planning now?" It does seem like he leaves her going on with her plan but what was the monitoring the Hanadagi movement through Kain and Ruka for? ever since the incident after Rido, he must know the Hanadagi will become a target eventually. When they reported there was movement, Kaname set out to move, when he arrived I believe it was too late and he had only witnessed Hana controlling Aido so he opted to kill him to prevent that.

I think he has his reasons(?) for letting her go with her plan for the time being and I don’t think it’s only because she hasn’t done any move against Yuuki or him yet.
A key point I think is Hanadagi’s past and his special PB ability … why Sara pick him? And it wasn’t an incidental choice cuz she had to kill Ouri in order to be able to pass the icy front of Hanadagi’s castle. Also why Kaname monitor his castle before Sara’s movements?

Another point … I think that after Ruka’s and Akatsuki’s last report he had decided to kill Hanadagi and Aido-dono, cuz
a) he went there with the anti-vampire sword
b) he said to Yuuki that he will bring more unpleasant feelings to Ruka …
http://www.mangareader.net/104-58423-18/vampire-knight/chapter-66.html

I suppose he was referring to Aidou-dono killing.
So I think it was everything decided in advance …

Kaname’s decision to fulfil his original plan:

juliet wrote: All these say to me that he had predecided it. Now before Touma, after Touma, but I think before the biting scene, yes. That’s why he is acting so passionate about it and needs her to know now of the truth.

sweetsolace wrote: I think Kaname decided "this decision" when he gave artemis to Yuki to make her realize something (that no matter what she does there are something's that can't be helped).

I have the impression Kaname took his decision after Haruka’s murder etc etc. The chess game began back then.
1. Handed over Yuuki to Cross … in that way secured her safety and fulfilled Juri’s wish for Yuuki.
2. He played along with the senate and Asato, until he gains his powers again and be ready for Rido’s come back.
3. He prepared Zero.
4. He helped Cross to establish the NC … to sow the seed for coexistence.
5. He wiped off the senate … there he revealed that now he decided to stop hesitate …
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2169-5/vampire-knight/chapter-43.html
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2169-6/vampire-knight/chapter-43.html

“The decision I had taken in my first period of despair …” his plan is the same he had as ancestor, but for an unknown for us reason he felt despaired and went into slumber. But now he has motive again … he has Yuuki.

6. He kept Yuuki in the mansion to give her time to adjust and grow while he was trying to settle things in vampire society along with the hunters.

7. Contradictions …

juliet wrote: So it could not be difficult for Kaname to know the path she will take or the path she would choose. As I said before and allow me to believe it, Yuuki’s idea to help the innocents against the desires of the purebloods is an indication of her future path.
Kaname recognizes that overall in Yuuki; It is time to spread her wings, thus his contradiction and his sadness in Rido scene.
In order to support her role and her decision, he needs to reveal his real identity, show her his past, stop hesitating, as Rido said, to reveal his true nature.
In this scene with Rido all these thoughts are in his mind.

I agree …
http://www.mangareader.net/104-56087-13/vampire-knight/chapter-63.html

“I already know what decision you’re about to make … you’re born right beside me”
Kaname had already give Artemis to Yuuki but cuz he knew her, he was afraid for her … that’s why he was filled with contradictions and despair as we can see in the conversation he had with Rido…
http://www.mangareader.net/104-51058-3/vampire-knight/chapter-60.html

“You want to protect your beloved … but also you want to tear off her wings …”
http://www.mangareader.net/104-51058-5/vampire-knight/chapter-60.html

This is his inner battle … but I think this “conversation” helped him to see that the time has come …
http://www.mangareader.net/104-51058-6/vampire-knight/chapter-60.html

He crushes Rido’s remains >>> he crushes his contradictions … and there he made up his mind that is about time to “prepare” Yuuki for the next step of his original plan ... not the plan but the time for the next step.

As juliet mentioned he was agonized of how Yuuki sees him after the revelations of his past. In my opinion he didn’t want only to prepare her in powers terms, but to somehow “secure” that she won’t reject him after the end of his plan … like he wanted to say …”Now you know who I am … have faith in me and you don’t hesitate”.


I have the feeling he tried to do the same thing with Hanabusa somehow … the message he sent with Seiren to the HA …
http://www.mangareader.net/104-58423-2/vampire-knight/chapter-66.html
http://www.mangareader.net/104-58423-3/vampire-knight/chapter-66.html

It’s like the “I trust you” he said to Ruka …

Juliet you’ve changed “armory” ?! ha ha no I’m kidding I get your point!

It's true, they pay better...LOL, haha, no of course but let's imvestigate all options, seem interesting enough, how so many clues can provide a hint to the opposite side for the hunters and some readers...

Νina awesome post really, I think you put the two theries together and you so well connected them, adding even more dimension. It's really hard to complete all the pieces, Kaname has many mysteries and going page by page is really difficult to see it all through and make judgements

I have the impression Kaname took his decision after Haruka’s murder etc etc. The chess game began back then.
1. Handed over Yuuki to Cross … in that way secured her safety and fulfilled Juri’s wish for Yuuki.
2. He played along with the senate and Asato, until he gains his powers again and be ready for Rido’s come back.
3. He prepared Zero.
4. He helped Cross to establish the NC … to sow the seed for coexistence.
5. He wiped off the senate … there he revealed that now he decided to stop hesitate …
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2169-5/vampire-knight/chapter-43.html
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2169-6/vampire-knight/chapter-43.html

“The decision I had taken in my first period of despair …”his plan is the same he had as ancestor, but for an unknown for us reason he felt despaired and went into slumber. But now he has motive again … he has Yuuki.

Your two last statements are also supported....here! A Kaname that lost all hope....



A kaname that finds hope again



in order to fulfill his plan




Now of course, how Kaname remembers the warmth of her eyes by seeing Yuuki only through a "premonition" and this gives him a new meaning in his current life is a whole new debate/discussion.

Back to the current discussion...

Now apparently Kaname wanted to fullfil his plan...but priority was given to Yuuki as Rido's intervasion messes up all of their lives...and Kaname does whatever is possible to move in all directions...

Co-existence: Establishes Cross academy and cooperates with the hunters, to deteriorate the council's (Asato's original plans that resurected Rido to rule) influence on the academy...

Yuuki: Inevitably he has to change her back or she would go crazy. As she wants to remember of her past, the spell is breaking, Rido emerges, he is left with no options...

Elimination of the council and power restored; He kills the council, when he visits it as the scans show he is declaring his intentions to make his original plan come true this time;

his main concern no more bees that follow the Queen no matter what





Kaname last actions lead to his own erase from the powers and open the way for a new authority to arrive not bonded with fear but with trust;





(my premonition LOL that the current nightclass will lead in the future the vampire society as the new council)....
It's almost the same desire with Haruka's father who abolished the monacrhy;

The grandfather's ideology as stated in the fanbook;
The kurans became the royal family, and they had full authority over everything.
The head of the Kuran familly two generations ago, (Haruka Kuran's father) did not want this. He summoned the Senate to make them govern vampire society instead.
The Senate was supposed to be a governing body where many vampires would discuss and decide matters peacefully rather than have the purebloods with absolute power rule by force. However, the organization is now a cruel institution that uses any method necessary to rule vampire society.

About Kaname's hesitation;
When Kaname visits the Senate he declares his intentions to change the way the vampire society is ruled by now - I believe that either Senate or Monarchy, Kaname goes against blind authority....

So his actions are set in this direction...

What keeps him back from fulfilling his plan? It seems to be the same with his motive to fulfill it...

Yuuki...

During the one year that Yuuki was learning the vampire society and was making progress in adapting herself to all changes, Kaname enjoys his time with her, I even think that he had decided to postpone his plan (or cancel it) since he had discovered hapiness...





Now it seems that something on the way changed his opinion again...what?

]
He hesitated but...

why? because he is afraid of Yuuki's choice that will lead him in despair...because one part of him has to let her spread her wings and inevitably Kaname will have to set his plan into action and another part of him wants to keep her safe and protected living hapiness by his side...

Yuuki's choice is to break free...Kaname chuckles to her persistance, the scene seems funny but it transfers a meaning; its time...




What a resemblance...



Kaname is thrown in despair by the path that Yuuki wants to follow, a path he recognizes...his contradiction arises



To support her path and fufill his original plan or to hold her in safety and remain silent...

He crushes Rido’s remains >>> he crushes his contradictions … and there he made up his mind that is about time to “prepare” Yuuki for the next step of his original plan ... not the plan but the time for the next step.

Also believe that Nina, at this point Kaname makes his final decision...and his own despair about that decision is demontrated here...






And in order not to live that a second time he has to act...
and move on with his original plan.

He knows the path that Yuuki has chosen and he gives her knowledge and power through his memories and blood.

Along with a key that keeps new mysteries...
Kaname before leaving to move on with his plan wants to know, what is she thinking of him?



They agree to start over again...for Kaname it means more than it means to Yuuki because from now on they will move into new roles...all of Yuuki's believes will be challenged, she is going to meet Kaname from the start and so their relationship will move in a new level, she won't be a little girl anymore as new rensponsibilities will rise for her, once Kaname starts moving and he is not going to be the trusted vampire leader but the "bersek"..

Kaname is very emotionally affected here...knowing the continuation...



Now this was my interpretation of events, you are welcome to add another or to debate any points made or add to this with any more theories...

You're suggesting Kaname trying to hide the act so he made an excuse to her when she caught him?so what was all the prior effort of him trying to reveal everything to her?

No, not at all...I believe that Kaname had already decided, but even if he had wanted he could not pull back...at the last page he merely explains that he needs to go to fulfill his plan and his hesitation period came to an end. This is what I think...

Exactly … The hunters suspect Sara for Ouri’s murder, they know she turned girls into vampires and they know she is planning something cuz she visited the president of the pharmacy company. The question is … where is Hanadagi’s servant? She is the only one who could inform the hunters about Sara’s involvement … did they take her for interrogation? If not where did she go?

Where is that girl or what did the hunters did with her? I also wonder. She is the only one that can provide witness to Sara's intrusion in the castle.
Without her witness the crime scene only pictures Kaname.

A key point I think is Hanadagi’s past and his special PB ability … why Sara pick him? And it wasn’t an incidental choice cuz she had to kill Ouri in order to be able to pass the icy front of Hanadagi’s castle. Also why Kaname monitor his castle before Sara’s movements?

Very good observation indeed, Kaname seemed to want Hanadagi killed for some reason and he kills him after Sara manages to take the heart. Why not Sara?

She has done more, he knows it, he does not care to sacrifice Hanadagi or Aidou's dad and she is posing a real danger for Yuuki, nightclass and Takuma. What's Sara's role in his plan or game? For him, I am sure she is another chess piece in his own chessboard. But why? What necessity is her role filling?

This is a long shot, however give it a little thought. Hanadagi had been asleep for 100's of years, kaname as been awake from his eternal slumber for about 20-25 at the most. So he should know nothing about kaname, however if he is the head of a pb family and sleeps for a millinum at a time it is possible he is an ancester. If that is the case he might know kaname from before and kaname might have killed him so no one would find out the truth. Only a few people know that kaname is an ancester.

He might have killed him to stop the other pbs from finding out, other wise they might all unite against kaname. I mean he was one of the ones heading the war against the pb's in the first pb war. I think kaname wants every one thinking he is just a yound 20-25 year old pb instead of a 10,000 year old pb ancester. People are more likly to ignore and or underestamate him this way.

So what you guys think? I will have to look back at the chapter but is it possible that Hanadagi said or hinted that kaname was a ancester dureing there fight, if he did there is a reason for kaname to kill aideo's dad, he found out some thing he shouldn't have.

juliet! That is soo HUGE! I'm already scared of you just kitting you've done well to highlight your points

and nina...nice points! you're a good observer. :3

ok about Yuki’s path
I'm a bit confused here, as Yuki said she already decided which path to take in Chapter 52

Spoiler:

could this be what Kaname says "i already know the path you will take..?"

The question is … where is Hanadagi’s servant? She is the only one who could inform the hunters about Sara’s involvement … did they take her for interrogation? If not where did she go?

good point... smells like a glitch too. The hunters are normally nitpicking everyone present or related on the scene to get leads on their case, if they wanted evidence they should have found the girl (if she is present/alive).
The last time we saw from her she was wounded from an injury that Sara caused, but she was still alive and Sara did not kill her...I think she fled after she saw her master dead, she had plenty of time for that while Aido and Kaname talked.

… Cross said to Yuuki “he isn’t the same Kaname” … I have the feeling that Cross words and stance was to prevent Yuuki to go after him. Maybe he doesn’t know what exactly Kaname’s original plan is, but he might have a slight idea …

So does Nagamichi. A chapter before he died, he said to Yuki, “someone like you... can you really go against him/ stop him from now on? If you sense something wrong, I want you to reprimand him firmly” He had an idea that suggest Kaname was going to do something wrong, also, ever wonder why he made it his business to “chase” after Sara or know that she was wrong? Even the hunters don’t put her under surveillance means they are not confident enough she’s doing something bad, but Aido seems to have an idea. From what I know everyone thinks Sara is continuing Ouri's charity works.

Spoiler:

If Aido knows something, who told him is the question. When Sara’s car rushed past him, he went after her like she was a criminal... Even went inside the Hanadagi castle. I have a feeling Aido and Kaname discussed a lot more than just what was shown prior to that.

A key point I think is Hanadagi’s past and his special PB ability … why Sara pick him? And it wasn’t an incidental choice cuz she had to kill Ouri in order to be able to pass the icy front of Hanadagi’s castle. Also why Kaname monitor his castle before Sara’s movements?

Maybe the castle has a special seal and can only be unleashed with Ouri power? Or Hanadagi has a special power? Could be. it is also very possible, perhaps hanadagi has special ability..
But Sara said Hanadagi heart will make her more powerful and that was what she wanted, she didn't say anything specific like "I got the power, now I can control the universe" sortofthing , she just said, "i have power now". Doesn’t seem to be so special... maybe. i dont know..hm.
I think it’s fair enough to say that Hanadagi was currently the most potential target for anyone seeking power... He is sleeping alone (as was shown), with one guardian, with a seal that can be trespassed with enough power. Sara was said to be a “weak little girl” and she needed power to get started—Ouri provided this. The next step was to increase her power with barely doing anything... unlike Rido who can wield weapons, she only has her deceit as skill to ensure her success. She went for the most vulnerable pureblood and that was Hanadagi. < Also, from the way Hanadagi referred to Sara as “weak, little girl” seems like he had a good background who she is in terms of prowess...Maybe they know each other in the past? ok, not maybe, but surely...he couldn't just tell her she is weak without knowing her. Also, it didn’t look to me that Hanadagi was a good pureblood, he seems to be at Sara’s level of wickedness, judging from his decision to take Aido’s life. However his guardian described him as not wanting to meddle in political affairs...he's probably neutral.
So 500 years ago before he slept he had met Sara before and knew her.. what happened that time?

Another point … I think that after Ruka’s and Akatsuki’s last report he had decided to kill Hanadagi and Aido-dono, cuz
a) he went there with the anti-vampire sword
b) he said to Yuuki that he will bring more unpleasant feelings to Ruka …
http://www.mangareader.net/104-58423-18/vampire-knight/chapter-66.html
I suppose he was referring to Aidou-dono killing.
So I think it was everything decided in advance …

Yes this is also what i was thinking. weird that Kaname knew he was going to kill someone and brought the Kuran sword with him... Not any other weapon, but the Kuran sword. Probably he had been expecting it. It occurred to me the moment he stabbed Hanadagi was only when Aido was threatened to become a refreshment....that’s when kaname “tapped” his shoulder and stepped in. Like he had been watching the whole time. Of course it can be a coincidence too.
Also add Aido’s words to Yuki: “someone like you... can you really go against him/ stop him from now on? If you sense something wrong, I want you to reprimand him firmly” –he does sense something wrong with Kaname too. LOL characters should stop being cryptic already

“The decision I had taken in my first period of despair …” his plan is the same he had as ancestor, but for an unknown for us reason he felt despaired and went into slumber. But now he has motive again … he has Yuuki.
7. Contradictions …

juliet wrote:(my premonition LOL that the current nightclass will lead in the future the vampire society as the new council)....
It's almost the same desire with Haruka's father who abolished the monacrhy;

The grandfather's ideology as stated in the fanbook;
The kurans became the royal family, and they had full authority over everything.
The head of the Kuran familly two generations ago, (Haruka Kuran's father) did not want this. He summoned the Senate to make them govern vampire society instead.
The Senate was supposed to be a governing body where many vampires would discuss and decide matters peacefully rather than have the purebloods with absolute power rule by force. However, the organization is now a cruel institution that uses any method necessary to rule vampire society.

About Kaname's hesitation;
When Kaname visits the Senate he declares his intentions to change the way the vampire society is ruled by now - I believe that either Senate or Monarchy, Kaname goes against blind authority....

So his actions are set in this direction...

What keeps him back from fulfilling his plan? It seems to be the same with his motive to fulfill it...

Yuuki...

Kaname went to sleep “with no intention of waking up”... however Rido as his “mirror” said “he was waiting for something and it will never return, and that he hasn’t the slightest hope left”...
ch60

Spoiler:

but Kaname was awakened... And now I think the decision he took when he despaired was his original plan, and he said he had hesitations but now he has finally decided.

Now apparently Kaname wanted to fullfil his plan...but priority was given to Yuuki as Rido's intervasion messes up all of their lives...and Kaname does whatever is possible to move in all directions...

Co-existence: Establishes Cross academy and cooperates with the hunters, to deteriorate the council's (Asato's original plans that resurected Rido to rule) influence on the academy...

Yuuki: Inevitably he has to change her back or she would go crazy. As she wants to remember of her past, the spell is breaking, Rido emerges, he is left with no options...

Elimination of the council and power restored; He kills the council, when he visits it as the scans show he is declaring his intentions to make his original plan come true this time;

his main concern no more bees that follow the Queen no matter what

Killing the senate was the first step to this (he says to the council before killing them, 'and you're going to be the first ones'), so this gives insight what he’s planning... his “original plan”. He also gives hint to what he plans through his words to Aido, “Who said purebloods can’t be harmed? Without purebloods you’re like bees without a queen...”
Juliet you're right there Kaname had plans to change vampire society, and I think he had been meaning to ever since he went to sleep. That "something" I believe Rido was referring to could be the "hope" that he wished to see would happen with the society, however little... When Kaname woke up again in such cruel circumstances, this didn't really help form his decision that society had changed... But then, Yuki was born and Kaname said, "I'm determined to protect this warmth from now on".
It's like both of you said, Yuki was one of his hesitations to carry out his original plan...but I think it's not the only one. His hesitations to carry this out must mean it is a terrible plan, somewhat, a big catastrophic plan that will mean no return, but Kaname is also hindered in part to carry this out.
Kaname has circumstances when he was reborn again in a new body...the limitations he had to manipulate to put on his favor... The fact Rido was his master required him to use Zero to kill him...actually I think he just found Zero's usefulness and brought it to the surface, but I don't think he planned to kill Rido until he found out he became troublesome and charged the academy, threatening to eat Yuki.
At that point, the corruption of the Senate was laid in full view to Kaname--Asato told him his wishes to get rid of Kaname so he could place Rido on his position...to put the senate in control of everything again, probably some kind of monarchy only with senate leading.
ch38

Spoiler:

Kaname wanted to kill him but Takuma intervened.. then Kaname went to take out the council. Thoughts of Yuki didn't hinder Kaname from accomplishing this, Kaname said, "Sorry Yuki..I'm not a kind and gentle vampire at all"
This is why I think Yuki is just part of his hesitation, but it's not enough to hinder him from doing what needs to be done. Kaname apologizes in a similar manner after killing Aido and Hanadagi, "Sorry Yuki. goodbye.."

Kaname has hesitated for numerous reasons, because as Rido pointed out he had almost lost hope means he still had remaining left, that's why he waited for someone to wake him up eventhough he had no intention to (his contradictions). His original plan is probably something massive, instant or armageddon-like. And he didn't want it to happen not only for Yuki's sake as his beloved but for the others he trusted or for the society he once ruled... Maybe it's Kaname's hidden power, but there's something sure, he is not hesitating now.

Kaname said he went to the academy to return a favor and also it served as a place to get what he wants
ch19

Spoiler:

return a favor- for kaien and juri, coexistence?
what he wants- yuki's protection, someone to kill rido (zero)
the pieces played into his hands perfectly and after that was over, Kaname placed yuki inside the mansion to continue teaching her the ways of a pureblood like Nina and Juliet pointed out, while he is trying to fix vampire society. Kaname said that coexistence won't happen over night,
ch53

Spoiler:

it needs time...Still bad things happen one after another, Sara creates additional trouble and Touma attacks Yuki. I think Kaname got fed up and his hesitation grew thinner replaced by certainty. Now he is actively moving.

They agree to start over again...for Kaname it means more than it means to Yuuki because from now on they will move into new roles...all of Yuuki's believes will be challenged, she is going to meet Kaname from the start
He also says the world he lives in is different from how she sees it

yes... definitely challenged. kaname already tells her that the way she views the world is different from the way he sees it. Kaname has suffered centuries of despair and contradiction, while Yuki grew up pampered and loved knowing simplistic views and justice. That will surely be tried.