Zero or Kaname?

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Which one do you like most for Yuuki?

Everyone keeps saying that her lover was alive when she escaped.... but this is the first i'm hearing of it just recently. Like did Kaname say it or something...?

I am sure that Aya shall explain that part to you...but this part of Hino is like a mental challenge and we've discovered it! Read what you have and you shall see it too, the open-wide window that shouts of Kaname's innocent that Hino leaves there for all of us to discover...Aya made that clear...and Zero perhaps shall see it too... because Hino has set the background so well that it was very easy for that lie to be caught...so check again...

juliet wrote:

Everyone keeps saying that her lover was alive when she escaped.... but this is the first i'm hearing of it just recently. Like did Kaname say it or something...?

I am sure that Aya shall explain that part to you...but this part of Hino is like a mental challenge and we've discovered it! Read what you have and you shall see it too, the open-wide window that shouts of Kaname's innocent that Hino leaves there for all of us to discover...Aya made that clear...and Zero perhaps shall see it too... because Hino has set the background so well that it was very easy for that lie to be caught...so check again...

I see what you mean, a lot of stuff in vampire knight is "like a mental challenge" lol There are a lot of things to interpret and theorize about. But the thing is, someone last night rudely pointed out that they think all zeki's can do is just that, interpreting things, and they implied that only direct fact should be used when talking about the manga. Where's the fun in that? I use fact AND interpretation, that's not wrong,is it? But it's been made out to be. What do you think?

Shoujo-Zo18 wrote:

juliet wrote:

Everyone keeps saying that her lover was alive when she escaped.... but this is the first i'm hearing of it just recently. Like did Kaname say it or something...?

I am sure that Aya shall explain that part to you...but this part of Hino is like a mental challenge and we've discovered it! Read what you have and you shall see it too, the open-wide window that shouts of Kaname's innocent that Hino leaves there for all of us to discover...Aya made that clear...and Zero perhaps shall see it too... because Hino has set the background so well that it was very easy for that lie to be caught...so check again...

I see what you mean, a lot of stuff in vampire knight is "like a mental challenge" lol There are a lot of things to interpret and theorize about. But the thing is, someone last night rudely pointed out that they think all zeki's can do is just that, interpreting things, and they implied that only direct fact should be used when talking about the manga. Where's the fun in that? I use fact AND interpretation, that's not wrong,is it? But it's been made out to be. What do you think?

Hope you dont mind me answering this. Personally i dont think interpretations are bad, thats how we come up with theories, we interpret something in the manga, read the signs etc. Usually its good to back your interpretations with facts, makes your case stronger really, and also helps show people where you got the interpretation or idea from.

As long as posts aren't all opinionate i see nothing wrong with them, as we do have to remeber opinions arent facts, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

Bloodredhead wrote:

Shoujo-Zo18 wrote:

juliet wrote:

I am sure that Aya shall explain that part to you...but this part of Hino is like a mental challenge and we've discovered it! Read what you have and you shall see it too, the open-wide window that shouts of Kaname's innocent that Hino leaves there for all of us to discover...Aya made that clear...and Zero perhaps shall see it too... because Hino has set the background so well that it was very easy for that lie to be caught...so check again...

I see what you mean, a lot of stuff in vampire knight is "like a mental challenge" lol There are a lot of things to interpret and theorize about. But the thing is, someone last night rudely pointed out that they think all zeki's can do is just that, interpreting things, and they implied that only direct fact should be used when talking about the manga. Where's the fun in that? I use fact AND interpretation, that's not wrong,is it? But it's been made out to be. What do you think?

Hope you dont mind me answering this. Personally i dont think interpretations are bad, thats how we come up with theories, we interpret something in the manga, read the signs etc. Usually its good to back your interpretations with facts, makes your case stronger really, and also helps show people where you got the interpretation or idea from.

As long as posts aren't all opinionate i see nothing wrong with them, as we do have to remeber opinions arent facts, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

Exactly I'm glad you can see my point of view, interpretation is a big part of the fan community of any anime/manga lol In a debate, yes, facts should be used to back it up, however in a simple discussion or fangirling and whatnot, which we fans love to do, i see nothing wrong with all the theorizing and such. As I said, it's a big part of fandom. The authors want you to think, sometime they themselves don't even tie off all loose ends and leave the solution to your imagination... ^^

Shoujo-Zo18 wrote:Aya-chan , please don't get mad, but the i'm tired of the long posts, I would like to focus on one issue at a time if possible, please understand. I'd like to discuss, not argue, about a specific point. I am honestly confused about the Shizuka situation. Everyone keeps saying that her lover was alive when she escaped.... but this is the first i'm hearing of it just recently. Like did Kaname say it or something...? Cuz it wasn't brought up until after the recent chapter. I have the fanbook too, so I feel foolish for forgetting that...but if that timeline is correct - Over Four Years Ago - Rido ordered the council to kill her lover, and the Kiryuu's hunt him. and then Four Years ago - She takes her revenge on the Kiryuu's. ( now this is not a direct quote, just paraphrasing.) If that's true, then that is proof that her lover was killed before she killed the Kiryuu's though it's not stated as before she left the prison... But still, Isn't it assumed that when she is let out of prison she goes straight to kill the kiryuu's when she hears they killed her lover?

I hate long post as well, it takes so much time to write

Do you have the vk volumes? I tried to find if the bonus story from vol 8 is online and I couldn't find it - I would have showed you the scans if I did.

From kaname words from the last chapters is easy to realise that he freed her under the motive to kill zero's parents. So, in other words after she left the cage she would have went after zero's parents.

But, according to the Bonus Story: The scarlet cherry blossoms scattered only, volume 8, Shizuka ran away with her lover.

He came with me when I propose we ran away together...He never yielded to me, but remaining with me may have been his only option. but after that...what was waiting for him was...(means his death)

I bolded the sentence He came with me, which proves that they ran away together. In other words shizuka's lover was ALIVE, so she had no reason to kill zero's parents immediatly after she left the cage since zero's parents hadn't commit *yet* any crime against her lover.

If someone can scan those 2 pages I would be greateful.

nuitetoile21 wrote:Although if we want to be honest.. Zero is a better match for her.. Kaname is very mature for her,and we can see clearly that Yuuki can't give him the things he wants. Yuuki is acting some times like a baby and Kaname wants a woman. Altough he loves that childhoodness of Yuuki. But the thing that she is still calls him ''Kaname -sama'' and she is not close to him (not close enough, like a lover), makes him feel lonely.

I agree Kaname is an ancestor and a very mature one, so Yuuki isn't really fit for him as far as personality features. That would be nice if they did end up together, but there's not much chance after what happened on Chapter 79 so......... most likely Yuuki will be with Zero in the end.

DarkRose wrote:

nuitetoile21 wrote:Although if we want to be honest.. Zero is a better match for her.. Kaname is very mature for her,and we can see clearly that Yuuki can't give him the things he wants. Yuuki is acting some times like a baby and Kaname wants a woman. Altough he loves that childhoodness of Yuuki. But the thing that she is still calls him ''Kaname -sama'' and she is not close to him (not close enough, like a lover), makes him feel lonely.

I agree Kaname is an ancestor and a very mature one, so Yuuki isn't really fit for him as far as personality features. That would be nice if they did end up together, but there's not much chance after what happened on Chapter 79 so......... most likely Yuuki will be with Zero in the end.

I don´t think that Kaname thinks that Yuuki isn´t mature enough for him, as you already said nuitetoile21 he loves her childhoodness....Yuuki grew up a little in the last chapters, we all could see it, I think Yuuki gets mature in these kind of situations and with Kaname...of course he wishes that Yuuki is the closest to him and that she shares his feelings...I don´t think that her childhoodness will be the problem in the end, there are other reasons that could cause the seperation of Kaname and Yuuki, but we will see (don´t take my words for granted)

aya-chan wrote:

Shoujo-Zo18 wrote:Aya-chan , please don't get mad, but the i'm tired of the long posts, I would like to focus on one issue at a time if possible, please understand. I'd like to discuss, not argue, about a specific point. I am honestly confused about the Shizuka situation. Everyone keeps saying that her lover was alive when she escaped.... but this is the first i'm hearing of it just recently. Like did Kaname say it or something...? Cuz it wasn't brought up until after the recent chapter. I have the fanbook too, so I feel foolish for forgetting that...but if that timeline is correct - Over Four Years Ago - Rido ordered the council to kill her lover, and the Kiryuu's hunt him. and then Four Years ago - She takes her revenge on the Kiryuu's. ( now this is not a direct quote, just paraphrasing.) If that's true, then that is proof that her lover was killed before she killed the Kiryuu's though it's not stated as before she left the prison... But still, Isn't it assumed that when she is let out of prison she goes straight to kill the kiryuu's when she hears they killed her lover?

I hate long post as well, it takes so much time to write

Do you have the vk volumes? I tried to find if the bonus story from vol 8 is online and I couldn't find it - I would have showed you the scans if I did.

From kaname words from the last chapters is easy to realise that he freed her under the motive to kill zero's parents. So, in other words after she left the cage she would have went after zero's parents.

But, according to the Bonus Story: The scarlet cherry blossoms scattered only, volume 8, Shizuka ran away with her lover.

He came with me when I propose we ran away together...He never yielded to me, but remaining with me may have been his only option. but after that...what was waiting for him was...(means his death)

I bolded the sentence He came with me, which proves that they ran away together. In other words shizuka's lover was ALIVE, so she had no reason to kill zero's parents immediatly after she left the cage since zero's parents hadn't commit *yet* any crime against her lover.

If someone can scan those 2 pages I would be greateful.

Yes, actually, I own all 13 volumes currently released of VK I'd be happy to scan it since you can't find it ^^ I've never scanned a manga before... How am i supposed to do that? It's not like i'd want to rip the pages out, and the book won't be able to be completely flat o.O I don't wanna ruin it ^^; Also I can't right now, but I will re-read that bonus chapter sometime today and give you my opinions on it. ^^

Katherine wrote:

DarkRose wrote:

nuitetoile21 wrote:Although if we want to be honest.. Zero is a better match for her.. Kaname is very mature for her,and we can see clearly that Yuuki can't give him the things he wants. Yuuki is acting some times like a baby and Kaname wants a woman. Altough he loves that childhoodness of Yuuki. But the thing that she is still calls him ''Kaname -sama'' and she is not close to him (not close enough, like a lover), makes him feel lonely.

I agree Kaname is an ancestor and a very mature one, so Yuuki isn't really fit for him as far as personality features. That would be nice if they did end up together, but there's not much chance after what happened on Chapter 79 so......... most likely Yuuki will be with Zero in the end.

I don´t think that Kaname thinks that Yuuki isn´t mature enough for him, as you already said nuitetoile21 he loves her childhoodness....Yuuki grew up a little in the last chapters, we all could see it, I think Yuuki gets mature in these kind of situations and with Kaname...of course he wishes that Yuuki is the closest to him and that she shares his feelings...I don´t think that her childhoodness will be the problem in the end, there are other reasons that could cause the seperation of Kaname and Yuuki, but we will see (don´t take my words for granted)

I agree. Yuuki's childishness is not a problem. And even though there are other things to separate them I am sure it won't and they will be together in the end. Yuuki has already been standing for her love for Kaname and still believing in him no matter what. I don't see that changing.

Alright Aya-chan, I've got the image where she said it. You're right that she escaped with her "lover" but apparently he wasn't even her lover o.O I didn't scan this page, it's the very next one, but Shizuka said "He never yielded to me, but remaining with me may have been his only option." and she also said on the page I did scan " I believe he never forgave me for that until the very end." about him being turned into a vampire. So if he went with her when they ran away together, it means they left the cage at the same time....But if Kaname is saying he is the one who let Shizuka out of her cage...doesn't that mean he let them both out of the cage? He may have not mentioned the part about her "lover" because he didn't think it was an important point. I think his aim was to aggravate Zero. Now I understand. So... If Kaname was lying, then who is the one that let them out of the cage? I believe it may not be a lie.

Shoujo-Zo18 wrote:Alright Aya-chan, I've got the image where she said it. You're right that she escaped with her "lover" but apparently he wasn't even her lover o.O I didn't scan this page, it's the very next one, but Shizuka said "He never yielded to me, but remaining with me may have been his only option." and she also said on the page I did scan " I believe he never forgave me for that until the very end." about him being turned into a vampire. So if he went with her when they ran away together, it means they left the cage at the same time....But if Kaname is saying he is the one who let Shizuka out of her cage...doesn't that mean he let them both out of the cage? He may have not mentioned the part about her "lover" because he didn't think it was an important point. I think his aim was to aggravate Zero. Now I understand. So... If Kaname was lying, then who is the one that let them out of the cage? I believe it may not be a lie.

I dont think aya-chan was saying kaname lied about letting shizuka out, but he lied about what happened afterwards. (aya-chan if i am wrong just say).

If we think about Kaname's next words, he let shizuka out to have her revenge. Now shizuka was let out with her lover so it can't be the revenge on the kiryu's, as he is still alive, therefore the only option is it was shizuka's revenge on the council for having her imprisoned in a cage, cut away from love and happiness and the world. Make sense?

(Otherwise hino has created one major plot-hole there!)

Bloodredhead wrote:

Shoujo-Zo18 wrote:Alright Aya-chan, I've got the image where she said it. You're right that she escaped with her "lover" but apparently he wasn't even her lover o.O I didn't scan this page, it's the very next one, but Shizuka said "He never yielded to me, but remaining with me may have been his only option." and she also said on the page I did scan " I believe he never forgave me for that until the very end." about him being turned into a vampire. So if he went with her when they ran away together, it means they left the cage at the same time....But if Kaname is saying he is the one who let Shizuka out of her cage...doesn't that mean he let them both out of the cage? He may have not mentioned the part about her "lover" because he didn't think it was an important point. I think his aim was to aggravate Zero. Now I understand. So... If Kaname was lying, then who is the one that let them out of the cage? I believe it may not be a lie.

I dont think aya-chan was saying kaname lied about letting shizuka out, but he lied about what happened afterwards. (aya-chan if i am wrong just say).

If we think about Kaname's next words, he let shizuka out to have her revenge. Now shizuka was let out with her lover so it can't be the revenge on the kiryu's, as he is still alive, therefore the only option is it was shizuka's revenge on the council for having her imprisoned in a cage, cut away from love and happiness and the world. Make sense?

(Otherwise hino has created one major plot-hole there!)

No, I wasn't saying aya-chan lied lol I just scanned the image because she said she couldn't find it. We were discussing about the Shizuka situation, and she brought up that there was a page where Shizuka said she escaped with her lover. Oh, you bring up a good point, he did say to take revenge on the kiryuus...and that didn't happen until after she was released. But he still could have been the one to release her. Like someone said... he paused to think about his next words, as if to come up with something to maybe make Zero angry. That last bit "No...to take revenge on a certain hunter couple" may have been made up. But it's still possible that he's the one who let Shizuka & her lover out. And no, that last part doesn't make sense to me.Shizuka said herself that her lover was killed by the Kiryuu's and she took revenge. That part is not made up. How does the council play into that? o.O

Shoujo-Zo18 wrote:
No, I wasn't saying aya-chan lied lol I just scanned the image because she said she couldn't find it. We were discussing about the Shizuka situation, and she brought up that there was a page where Shizuka said she escaped with her lover. Oh, you bring up a good point, he did say to take revenge on the kiryuus...and that didn't happen until after she was released. But he still could have been the one to release her. Like someone said... he paused to think about his next words, as if to come up with something to maybe make Zero angry. That last bit "No...to take revenge on a certain hunter couple" may have been made up. But it's still possible that he's the one who let Shizuka & her lover out. And no, that last part doesn't make sense to me.Shizuka said herself that her lover was killed by the Kiryuu's and she took revenge. That part is not made up. How does the council play into that? o.O

No i didnt say you were saying aya-chan lied i just thought you had got confused. My bad.

No i wasnt saying that shizuka didnt kill the kiryu's out of revenge as she did. Thats a fact. What i was saying, was if kaname let shizuka out with her lover then it wasn't to do with taking any revenge on the kiryu's, as shizuka's lover was still alive. The kiryu's hadnt killed him yet, so the revenge she was seeking wasn't against the kiryu's when kaname let her out. So who did she wish to envoke revenge on then? The only thing i can think of is the council or rido.

Now think about it shizuka has been locked up by the council in a cage. No love. No happiness. I doubt anyone would want that life, if you can call it that. There are a few things i have wondered with why the council had shizuka locked up from the start. What were the benefits they were getting? This is something i am quite curious about and have had a few thoguhts about.

Bloodredhead wrote:

Shoujo-Zo18 wrote:
No, I wasn't saying aya-chan lied lol I just scanned the image because she said she couldn't find it. We were discussing about the Shizuka situation, and she brought up that there was a page where Shizuka said she escaped with her lover. Oh, you bring up a good point, he did say to take revenge on the kiryuus...and that didn't happen until after she was released. But he still could have been the one to release her. Like someone said... he paused to think about his next words, as if to come up with something to maybe make Zero angry. That last bit "No...to take revenge on a certain hunter couple" may have been made up. But it's still possible that he's the one who let Shizuka & her lover out. And no, that last part doesn't make sense to me.Shizuka said herself that her lover was killed by the Kiryuu's and she took revenge. That part is not made up. How does the council play into that? o.O

No i didnt say you were saying aya-chan lied i just thought you had got confused. My bad.

No i wasnt saying that shizuka didnt kill the kiryu's out of revenge as she did. Thats a fact. What i was saying, was if kaname let shizuka out with her lover then it wasn't to do with taking any revenge on the kiryu's, as shizuka's lover was still alive. The kiryu's hadnt killed him yet, so the revenge she was seeking wasn't against the kiryu's when kaname let her out. So who did she wish to envoke revenge on then? The only thing i can think of is the council or rido.

Now think about it shizuka has been locked up by the council in a cage. No love. No happiness. I doubt anyone would want that life, if you can call it that. There are a few things i have wondered with why the council had shizuka locked up from the start. What were the benefits they were getting? This is something i am quite curious about and have had a few thoguhts about.

Hm, you're right, seems like she should want to take revenge on the council...but she didn't. Could it be that they averted her attention from themselves by having her lover killed to get her more angry at someone else? But Rido's the one who did that. Maybe he wanted to mess with the Kiryuu's... or mess with Shizuka since he knew the one person close to her disappearing would make her go mad. Rido is twisted like that, I can seer him playing that sort of "game".

Shoujo-Zo18 wrote:

Bloodredhead wrote:

Shoujo-Zo18 wrote:
No, I wasn't saying aya-chan lied lol I just scanned the image because she said she couldn't find it. We were discussing about the Shizuka situation, and she brought up that there was a page where Shizuka said she escaped with her lover. Oh, you bring up a good point, he did say to take revenge on the kiryuus...and that didn't happen until after she was released. But he still could have been the one to release her. Like someone said... he paused to think about his next words, as if to come up with something to maybe make Zero angry. That last bit "No...to take revenge on a certain hunter couple" may have been made up. But it's still possible that he's the one who let Shizuka & her lover out. And no, that last part doesn't make sense to me.Shizuka said herself that her lover was killed by the Kiryuu's and she took revenge. That part is not made up. How does the council play into that? o.O

No i didnt say you were saying aya-chan lied i just thought you had got confused. My bad.

No i wasnt saying that shizuka didnt kill the kiryu's out of revenge as she did. Thats a fact. What i was saying, was if kaname let shizuka out with her lover then it wasn't to do with taking any revenge on the kiryu's, as shizuka's lover was still alive. The kiryu's hadnt killed him yet, so the revenge she was seeking wasn't against the kiryu's when kaname let her out. So who did she wish to envoke revenge on then? The only thing i can think of is the council or rido.

Now think about it shizuka has been locked up by the council in a cage. No love. No happiness. I doubt anyone would want that life, if you can call it that. There are a few things i have wondered with why the council had shizuka locked up from the start. What were the benefits they were getting? This is something i am quite curious about and have had a few thoguhts about.

Hm, you're right, seems like she should want to take revenge on the council...but she didn't. Could it be that they averted her attention from themselves by having her lover killed to get her more angry at someone else? But Rido's the one who did that. Maybe he wanted to mess with the Kiryuu's... or mess with Shizuka since he knew the one person close to her disappearing would make her go mad. Rido is twisted like that, I can seer him playing that sort of "game".

yes thats some of the things i have been thinking, the council then combatted with having her lover takne out. we've seen the ties between the council and rido to the association president. so having shizuka's lover put on the list i dont think would have been hard for them. one thing is i dont think the council or rido would have liked how a level D was so close to a pureblood. so getting rid of shizuka's lover to them could be bringing shizuka back under control, though they dont seem to have accounted for how her lose could make her go mad. rido for one wouldnt have liked it, he didnt get juri so then being rejected really by shizuka for a level D, could have hit his pride quite a bit. also as you said he may have just wanted to mess with her. he's done that before quite a few times.

there seem a few possibilities really.

Bloodredhead wrote:

Shoujo-Zo18 wrote:

Bloodredhead wrote:

No i didnt say you were saying aya-chan lied i just thought you had got confused. My bad.

No i wasnt saying that shizuka didnt kill the kiryu's out of revenge as she did. Thats a fact. What i was saying, was if kaname let shizuka out with her lover then it wasn't to do with taking any revenge on the kiryu's, as shizuka's lover was still alive. The kiryu's hadnt killed him yet, so the revenge she was seeking wasn't against the kiryu's when kaname let her out. So who did she wish to envoke revenge on then? The only thing i can think of is the council or rido.

Now think about it shizuka has been locked up by the council in a cage. No love. No happiness. I doubt anyone would want that life, if you can call it that. There are a few things i have wondered with why the council had shizuka locked up from the start. What were the benefits they were getting? This is something i am quite curious about and have had a few thoguhts about.

Hm, you're right, seems like she should want to take revenge on the council...but she didn't. Could it be that they averted her attention from themselves by having her lover killed to get her more angry at someone else? But Rido's the one who did that. Maybe he wanted to mess with the Kiryuu's... or mess with Shizuka since he knew the one person close to her disappearing would make her go mad. Rido is twisted like that, I can seer him playing that sort of "game".

yes thats some of the things i have been thinking, the council then combatted with having her lover takne out. we've seen the ties between the council and rido to the association president. so having shizuka's lover put on the list i dont think would have been hard for them. one thing is i dont think the council or rido would have liked how a level D was so close to a pureblood. so getting rid of shizuka's lover to them could be bringing shizuka back under control, though they dont seem to have accounted for how her lose could make her go mad. rido for one wouldnt have liked it, he didnt get juri so then being rejected really by shizuka for a level D, could have hit his pride quite a bit. also as you said he may have just wanted to mess with her. he's done that before quite a few times.

there seem a few possibilities really.

Wait!! You know what I just realized? Kaname said "No, it was to take revenge on a certain hunter couple..." (which I now realize that part is a lie) but I couldn't remember what the first part was so I looked back at the chapter. He said " To remove Shizuka-san's grudge..." Could it be that he meant her grudge against the council? Maybe he spoke with her and said to forgive the council and he would let her out....? That would make so much sense. o.o I think we've figured out the true meaning in everything he said in that scene xD

However, there's still the scene where Kaname was younger and he saw the Kiryuu twins...and Ichijou said "And that was the beginning of his plans." I want to know where that comes into play. >.< Unless Kaname was the one who tampered with the hunter list, or convinced Rido to do it, what else could he have done at that time to manipulate the Kiryuu's...? I mean, it's assumed that they were involved in his plan since he saw them and got shocked and Ichijou said that was the start of his plans.... but how were they involved?

I never said that kaname wasn't the one who freed shizuka. All I said is that he lied when kaname said he released her under the pretext the take revenge on kiryu's.

Manga shows that her lover was alive, and that she ran away with her lover, so kaname motive to release her is false.

The phrase "I did what I did so she could have her revenge" I think is true, but not the part "So she could have her revenge on a certain hunter couple."

My theory is that kaname released her for her to have revenge on the ones who locked her into a cage: the council and rido. I think shizuka was the first card he tried to use to eliminate Rido, since he couldn't give him the final blow.

Another theory of mine of that rido decided to mess with shizuka - to put her lover on hunters list - because he was uncomfortable with her in freedom. Shizuka was never submissive, and she could represent a danger for him - rido was in a vulnerable condition, and he couldn't fight to defend himself. Also, the council members didn't represent a treat for a pureblood like shizuka.
Taking someone she loves away from her, he could predict - based on her family record - that she would go mad, and she would focus her attention on someone else.

Shoujo-Zo18 wrote:

He said " To remove Shizuka-san's grudge..." Could it be that he meant her grudge against the council? Maybe he spoke with her and said to forgive the council and he would let her out....?

Kaname had no reason to ask shizuka to forgive the council. Neither she, since the council deprieved her of love and happiness.
How I did say above, I think Kaname wanted her to kill rido and the council.

However, there's still the scene where Kaname was younger and he saw the Kiryuu twins...and Ichijou said "And that was the beginning of his plans."

That scene shows takuma making his own conclusions. Nowhere kaname mentioned that his plan began then.

Personaly I do not think that the scene is the beggining of Kaname plan.
When Kaname saw the twins for the first time, they has around 7/8 years. When zero lost his family he had 13 years old. What kaname did in those 5/6 years since he saw the twins?

My opinion is that scene represent kaname surprise to see twins being born, since accoring to the curse this should n't have happened. I think that scene is connected with twin curse, and not kaname's plan.

Unless Kaname was the one who tampered with the hunter list,

Manga, and fanbook shows rido as the culprit - he ordered the senate to do so. Rest my case about this matter.

or convinced Rido to do it, what else could he have done at that time to manipulate the Kiryuu's...?

Is hard to believe kaname convinced rido to do something in his benefits. Can you imagince rido doing something like this

Also, when rido - in shiki's body - met with kaname, he said that the last time when he(rido) saw kaname was 10 years ago, not 4 years ago.

How kaname could have been able to make rido do something like that when they didn't see, nor talk.

I mean, it's assumed that they were involved in his plan since he saw them and got shocked and Ichijou said that was the start of his plans.... but how were they involved?

I would repeat myself: that is takuma assumption - also, I had said above my opinion about that scene.

Even if kaname was his best friend, and knew some things about his past, kaname did not say everything to takuma.
An example is kaname not saying to takuma that he's the progenitor of kuran's. This happened after kaname gave rido his blood. And takuma wans't alone with kaname inside that room, ichiru was there too. So kaname hadn't intented to keep the secret about him being the progenitor.

*nods*

@aya-chan

aya-chan wrote:I never said that kaname wasn't the one who freed shizuka. All I said is that he lied when kaname said he released her under the pretext the take revenge on kiryu's.

Manga shows that her lover was alive, and that she ran away with her lover, so kaname motive to release her is false.

The phrase "I did what I did so she could have her revenge" I think is true, but not the part "So she could have her revenge on a certain hunter couple."

My theory is that kaname released her for her to have revenge on the ones who locked her into a cage: the council and rido. I think shizuka was the first card he tried to use to eliminate Rido, since he couldn't give him the final blow.

Another theory of mine of that rido decided to mess with shizuka - to put her lover on hunters list - because he was uncomfortable with her in freedom. Shizuka was never submissive, and she could represent a danger for him - rido was in a vulnerable condition, and he couldn't fight to defend himself. Also, the council members didn't represent a treat for a pureblood like shizuka.
Taking someone she loves away from her, he could predict - based on her family record - that she would go mad, and she would focus her attention on someone else.

Shoujo-Zo18 wrote:

He said " To remove Shizuka-san's grudge..." Could it be that he meant her grudge against the council? Maybe he spoke with her and said to forgive the council and he would let her out....?

Kaname had no reason to ask shizuka to forgive the council. Neither she, since the council deprieved her of love and happiness.
How I did say above, I think Kaname wanted her to kill rido and the council.

However, there's still the scene where Kaname was younger and he saw the Kiryuu twins...and Ichijou said "And that was the beginning of his plans."

That scene shows takuma making his own conclusions. Nowhere kaname mentioned that his plan began then.

Personaly I do not think that the scene is the beggining of Kaname plan.
When Kaname saw the twins for the first time, they has around 7/8 years. When zero lost his family he had 13 years old. What kaname did in those 5/6 years since he saw the twins?

My opinion is that scene represent kaname surprise to see twins being born, since accoring to the curse this should n't have happened. I think that scene is connected with twin curse, and not kaname's plan.

Unless Kaname was the one who tampered with the hunter list,

Manga, and fanbook shows rido as the culprit - he ordered the senate to do so. Rest my case about this matter.

or convinced Rido to do it, what else could he have done at that time to manipulate the Kiryuu's...?

Is hard to believe kaname convinced rido to do something in his benefits. Can you imagince rido doing something like this

Also, when rido - in shiki's body - met with kaname, he said that the last time when he(rido) saw kaname was 10 years ago, not 4 years ago.

How kaname could have been able to make rido do something like that when they didn't see, nor talk.

I mean, it's assumed that they were involved in his plan since he saw them and got shocked and Ichijou said that was the start of his plans.... but how were they involved?

I would repeat myself: that is takuma assumption - also, I had said above my opinion about that scene.

Even if kaname was his best friend, and knew some things about his past, kaname did not say everything to takuma.
An example is kaname not saying to takuma that he's the progenitor of kuran's. This happened after kaname gave rido his blood. And takuma wans't alone with kaname inside that room, ichiru was there too. So kaname hadn't intented to keep the secret about him being the progenitor.

I know that it said Rido was the one who tampered with the list... I was just thinking up things trying to figure out what Kaname could have done. Tryin to think outside the box a little bit, ya know? And I do think that Ichijou having said that it was the start of Kaname's plans shows some signifigance....Hino wouldn't just throw that little detail out there for no reason. Maybe he didn't actually DO anything, but he may have started thinking about what he wanted to do.... for example, maybe at that time, he thought since the twins were close with Kaien ( who was aquainted with Kaname, though for how long I'm not sure) that someday, he might come to rely on one or both of them to protect Yuuki? But that's probably not it, since Yuuki wasn't in danger at that time, I think... Maybe he started thinking that "in the future" he could use them to his advantage to take out purebloods. Speaking of which, someone told me that Kaname can foresee the future....the proof being that he saw Yuuki when she was looking at his memories. I don't understand that, I thought that wasn't even real because she was only seeing his memories through his eyes, and her being there just tampered with it, not actually changed it.

Well, generally speaking the idea of Kaname "aiding Rido" or the reverse is a quite contradictory one. Rido was the one that needed to destroy Kaname in order to become the "king" and also was the source of Kaname's tragedy; familly killed and Yuuki taken away and changed.

Also Kaname must be having in mind that Rido would return, he knew that his blow to Rido would only postpone him.

By releasing Shizuka (who was considered to be Rido's fiancee, and here I can not stop wondering if the council used her pure blood in order to aid in Rido's resurrection because as we saw they fed him blood and what better blood than Shizuka's, if she was around?) I think that Kaname wanted

a. to aid her in living a normal life, since she was caged since birth
b. postpone the council's and Rido's plans by taking from them Shizuka and put obstacles on their way...

But that's probably not it, since Yuuki wasn't in danger at that time, I think...

Not at that time but I think that Kaname had in mind well that Rido and the council would not sit back and rest forever; it seems that the council was waiting for Rido to fully get his powers back so that they could release him against any pacifist ideas and people that would support that; Kaien, the NC, Kaname, Yuuki, as we saw this happening...

So Kaname needed a plan in order to lift something important from him; Rido's dominance, because even though Kaname was capable of stopping Rido, he was not capable to kill him; so if Rido decided to attack back again, that would only mean that Kaname would not be able to stop him for good, the result would only be a repetition.

Therefore Kaname patiently waited to find a resolution to his problem; his problem again I repeat was not to kill purebloods because Kaname can use anti-vampire weapons, his problem was that he had lost that ability against Rido (exactly what had happened at their first confrontation where Kaname could only blow him).

for example, maybe at that time, he thought since the twins were close with Kaien ( who was aquainted with Kaname, though for how long I'm not sure) that someday, he might come to rely on one or both of them to protect Yuuki?

According to what the manga shows Kaname needed a plan to lift break Rido's control over him; from there on he would be perfectly capable of protecting Yuuki himself without aiding anyone...

What I try to say with the above is that Kaname's plan was focused not on protection (Kaien was the main responsible for that), not in killing (he could kill other purebloods if he had wanted), but on Rido's control; he needed a way to break it > so his plan (which Takuma refers to) should be really focused on Rido who with having control over Kaname would be able to revive again and again.

So all these make the following;
1. Rido and Kaname as allies is an incompatible idea
2. The protection of Yuuki was not the primary target of Kaname's plan in relation to the Kiruys because that task was assigned to Kaien and because Kaname through his plan intended to protect Yuuki himself.
3. Kaname had to wait so that the Kiruys would be strong enough to kill a pureblood such as Rido and not risking being the other way around

And if Kaname's plan starts when hearing about the twins (as Takuma says) then it is at that time that Kaname just finds a solution how to lift Rido's control over him and the solution must be at the fact that both twins survived> and this brings up the significance of the twins in this case. How don't we know that Kaname needs them both to kill Rido at that phase?

Why to risk one of them being fatally injured or both twins killed by Shizuka?

I mean the logical assumption is that he needs them as strong as they can be in order to be certain that his plan shall be successful.

Since we know that Kaname only released Shizuka for her to be with her lover, and there was no way that Kaname and Rido can be allies at that phase and since Rido was the one that changed the list to revenge Shizuka for having a lover and the senate helped Rido or worked in Rido's benefit by providing access to the hunters list (as we saw the two presidents of the senate and the hunter's association were in collaboration), then in reality what happens with Shizuka is a threat to Kaname's plans.

Because both twins could have been killed at that phase...or one of them, or as we saw Shizuka changes Zero into a vampire and Zero has few chances of survival...

Is it a coincidence that after the attack Zero is appointed to a legendary vampire hunter such as Kaien and in reality enjoys the same protection as Yuuki? Or is it a necessity? because Shizuka is still out there and alive?

Is a coincidence that after attacking the Kiruy's and killing two vampires hunters, the vampire hunters do not put Shizuka in their extermination list?

Is it a coincidence that Kaien offers to Zero the Bloody Rose (an also legendary weapon as we saw?)

For me i think that its an easy solution to say that Kaname wanted Shizuka to attack the Kiryu's, (which with all the implications that are involved Kaname's plan is at a high risk).

So I think that we must also seek other hypothesis and explanations> since Kaname's plan at the first stage is to free himself from Rido, which was the notion that Kaname realized once he heard of the existence of twins?

If Zero had already devoured his brother at the womb would the realization still be the same?

I don't know if I'd call Yuuki childish; personally I think that's going a tad bit far. I think she's naive in the sense that she wants to make Kaname happy no matter what and sometimes makes a silly move here or there in the process. Of course, out of personal preference, I believe she is more suited for Zero. As stated before, Kaname is too mature for her and I think he has agendas that he doesn't tell Yuuki because he thinks she can't handle them (which immediately produces a trust issue right THERE) and might want to help, but that's just what I think. I could be totally wrong I don't doubt there's love between the two, I just wonder what KIND of love. I've always felt that Zero and Yuuki shared things on a more personal level more than she did with Kaname, but that's just how I interpreted the manga when I read it.

All we can really do is hope it turns out the way each of us want it to in the end

aya-chan wrote:I never said that kaname wasn't the one who freed shizuka. All I said is that he lied when kaname said he released her under the pretext the take revenge on kiryu's.

Manga shows that her lover was alive, and that she ran away with her lover, so kaname motive to release her is false.

The phrase "I did what I did so she could have her revenge" I think is true, but not the part "So she could have her revenge on a certain hunter couple."

My theory is that kaname released her for her to have revenge on the ones who locked her into a cage: the council and rido. I think shizuka was the first card he tried to use to eliminate Rido, since he couldn't give him the final blow.

Another theory of mine of that rido decided to mess with shizuka - to put her lover on hunters list - because he was uncomfortable with her in freedom. Shizuka was never submissive, and she could represent a danger for him - rido was in a vulnerable condition, and he couldn't fight to defend himself. Also, the council members didn't represent a treat for a pureblood like shizuka.
Taking someone she loves away from her, he could predict - based on her family record - that she would go mad, and she would focus her attention on someone else.

Shoujo-Zo18 wrote:

He said " To remove Shizuka-san's grudge..." Could it be that he meant her grudge against the council? Maybe he spoke with her and said to forgive the council and he would let her out....?

Kaname had no reason to ask shizuka to forgive the council. Neither she, since the council deprieved her of love and happiness.
How I did say above, I think Kaname wanted her to kill rido and the council.

However, there's still the scene where Kaname was younger and he saw the Kiryuu twins...and Ichijou said "And that was the beginning of his plans."

That scene shows takuma making his own conclusions. Nowhere kaname mentioned that his plan began then.

Personaly I do not think that the scene is the beggining of Kaname plan.
When Kaname saw the twins for the first time, they has around 7/8 years. When zero lost his family he had 13 years old. What kaname did in those 5/6 years since he saw the twins?

My opinion is that scene represent kaname surprise to see twins being born, since accoring to the curse this should n't have happened. I think that scene is connected with twin curse, and not kaname's plan.

Unless Kaname was the one who tampered with the hunter list,

Manga, and fanbook shows rido as the culprit - he ordered the senate to do so. Rest my case about this matter.

or convinced Rido to do it, what else could he have done at that time to manipulate the Kiryuu's...?

Is hard to believe kaname convinced rido to do something in his benefits. Can you imagince rido doing something like this

Also, when rido - in shiki's body - met with kaname, he said that the last time when he(rido) saw kaname was 10 years ago, not 4 years ago.

How kaname could have been able to make rido do something like that when they didn't see, nor talk.

I mean, it's assumed that they were involved in his plan since he saw them and got shocked and Ichijou said that was the start of his plans.... but how were they involved?

I would repeat myself: that is takuma assumption - also, I had said above my opinion about that scene.

Even if kaname was his best friend, and knew some things about his past, kaname did not say everything to takuma.
An example is kaname not saying to takuma that he's the progenitor of kuran's. This happened after kaname gave rido his blood. And takuma wans't alone with kaname inside that room, ichiru was there too. So kaname hadn't intented to keep the secret about him being the progenitor.

I'm completely speechless, aya-chan... This is by far one of the best comments I've ever read. I seriously doubt that Kaname is the antagonist like Rido and Sara... but your statement shows undeniable proof that he isn't at all. I hope Kaname listens to Takuma's reason and accept his confidante's advice instead of raising hell like Sara. Kaname deserves his happy ending above all others.

juliet wrote:So Kaname needed a plan in order to lift something important from him; Rido's dominance, because even though Kaname was capable of stopping Rido, he was not capable to kill him; so if Rido decided to attack back again, that would only mean that Kaname would not be able to stop him for good, the result would only be a repetition.

Because I don't know how to use the multi-quote thing, I just edited your post down to this one paragraph because it's the one point I want to adress, and it was repeated many times ^^; It's true that Kaname needed a plan to get rid of Rido, and we already know that he planned on using Zero to protect Yuuki and to kill Rido while they were at Cross Academy. However this brings about a realization.... his plans went back farther than just at Cross Academy. The moment he saw Zero and Ichiru, he probably didn't know that Ichiru would be out of the question later on...but had in mind using the both of them to kill Rido. There's a very plausible theory

Your right, and overall I feel as though it is wrong for Kaname to just use zero like this and now he is coming back and saying things that are obviously tearing Zero apart. I have no clue what Kaname's intentions are but things are starting to get weird.

I agree PurusBloodLamia Kaname is wanting to use Zero for far more...I wonder if Kanames was waiting for death in that coffin, and wants Zero to kill him or something....

That would be nice.. *cough* *cough* But yes, I am waiting to see what he will do, I am really excited right now. The complications between each character is really making the story interesting!