Zero or Kaname?

First topic message reminder :

Which one do you like most for Yuuki?

SassyKnight wrote:Zero. Zero maybe be angry at times but that is just because of his tragic loss with his family and his changing into a vampire. Besides his aggressive side, he can be VERY kind and serious. All he wants is for Yuki to be happy. He cares for other people before himself. Thats the main reason why I love Zero. He's completely selfless.

I totally agree with you Sassy! Zero has ample reason to have the personality he does due to what happened to him as a child. ( which we learned was because of Kaname in chapter 79 might I add....) I also agree that YES, Zero can be very very kind and serious ( hugs yuuki when she needs comforting....it's happened more than once..i can pull up the images for anyone who doubts me ;D) He does only wish for Yuuki's happiness ^^ That's to be expected since she's the one who pulled him out of his pit of despair, and cared for him so gently, even when at first very briefly he pushed her away... he did come to accept and care for her back and to protect her at all costs. This is part of the reason why he hated Kaname...because he didn't trust him. Why did he let Yuuki crush on him though I wonder....? Because he is a very selfess guy who wouldn't go so far as to tell her who to love just because he cares for her... he may have been pained by it but he never told Yuuki not to go after Kaname. All of this is fact from the manga, Zero truly did suffer alot and give up alot...and for that I commend him. Thank you for pointing out what you did Sass, it's not often that Zero gets the praise he deserves :3 Much love!! <3<3<3<3

Why is Kaname KILLING Vampires? Thats going AGAINST pasifism...He obviously does not want peace. If he really loved Yuki he would be doing things that SHE wanted. He only cares about his own intentions. Zero cares for Yuki enough to do whatever she wanted...And he obviously STILL have feelings for her even though shes a vampire.

Everything Yuki said about Kaname as a human was when she knew the "Prince Charming" side of Kaname. But now he's completely different so we dont really know what she desires now

SassyKnight wrote:Why is Kaname KILLING Vampires? Thats going AGAINST pasifism...He obviously does not want peace. If he really loved Yuki he would be doing things that SHE wanted. He only cares about his own intentions. Zero cares for Yuki enough to do whatever she wanted...And he obviously STILL have feelings for her even though shes a vampire.

Everything Yuki said about Kaname as a human was when she knew the "Prince Charming" side of Kaname. But now he's completely different so we dont really know what she desires now

Yeah. Kaname doesn't do the things yuuki wants to do. He's only focused on HIS intentions. we dont know what yuuki desires are. so none of us can say anything about the pairings as a FACT.

Bloodredhead wrote:I agree that kaname is a selfless person, as he puts his goals and innocnet above himself and his happiness.

Though i have to disagree with saying Zero isnt selfless, as he is. The recent chapter showed this. After kanames words, Zero wasnt thinking of himself or why me. His response was why Ichiru? Couldnt he have kept him out of it. He was thinking of another and note this person was one who had betrayed him and his parents. Also Zero has supported Yume, he wants Yuuki happy so supported her being with Kaname, to me another selfless move.

In my opinion both boys are selfless, its Yuuki to me who is the selfish one really.

While I don't agree that Kaname is selfless...because he monopolized everyone around him to protect the thing the most important to him, Yuuki ( not caring what she'll think about his actions and keeping her out of all his plans ; also in recent chapters i don't think its about protecting yuuki anymore..its about getting rid of all purebloods, his ultimate goal since ancient times, but this is just my theory.) I do like that for once a yume put in a good word for Zero, THANK YOU :3 I will say that Kaname probably does mean well... thinking that humans would be safer without purebloods around, but I just don't like the way he's went about it at all... It would be nice if he could achieve his goal of making the world safer for humans, without killing so many people. It would be nice if someone could understand that point of view once in awhile ^^; It's like the killing goes entirely un-noticed >.< ( Zero kills level E's only, vampires gone mad who present a current threat to humans and cannot be controlled, unless some pureblood is wiling to dole out all their blood... which i don't see happening ^^;) But everything you said about zero is true ^^ Except i wouldn't really say he "supported" yume... more like he accepted it only because it makes yuuki happy and it was her choice. If he supported it, he would have actually put in a good word for the two.. i recall him saying "Go, be with the man who can spend eternity with you..." but i don't recall him saying that he was happy for her or that he was glad she could be with kaname. Obviously he was very upset about it. But that's what friends do....they accept things for you even if it's tough for them.

SassyKnight wrote:Why is Kaname KILLING Vampires? Thats going AGAINST pasifism...He obviously does not want peace. If he really loved Yuki he would be doing things that SHE wanted. He only cares about his own intentions. Zero cares for Yuki enough to do whatever she wanted...And he obviously STILL have feelings for her even though shes a vampire.

Everything Yuki said about Kaname as a human was when she knew the "Prince Charming" side of Kaname. But now he's completely different so we dont really know what she desires now

Sorry sassy but why should kaname do what yuuki wants all the time? No-one should do what another wants all the time. May i point out Zero doesnt do what Yuuki wants alot either. Kaname is his own individual, his own person, he has his own unique personality and character. No-one's character or actions should really be dictated too by another.

The thing is kanames prince charming side still exists, he's got many different aspects to him. That side is the one yuuki see's as she's the only one he'll be like that around. You find that alot with people who are a couple. They show more of themself and treat their loved one specially comapred to everyone else.

Shoujo-Zo18 wrote:

Bloodredhead wrote:I agree that kaname is a selfless person, as he puts his goals and innocnet above himself and his happiness.

Though i have to disagree with saying Zero isnt selfless, as he is. The recent chapter showed this. After kanames words, Zero wasnt thinking of himself or why me. His response was why Ichiru? Couldnt he have kept him out of it. He was thinking of another and note this person was one who had betrayed him and his parents. Also Zero has supported Yume, he wants Yuuki happy so supported her being with Kaname, to me another selfless move.

In my opinion both boys are selfless, its Yuuki to me who is the selfish one really.

While I don't agree that Kaname is selfless...because he monopolized everyone around him to protect the thing the most important to him, Yuuki ( not caring what she'll think about his actions and keeping her out of all his plans ; also in recent chapters i don't think its about protecting yuuki anymore..its about getting rid of all purebloods, his ultimate goal since ancient times, but this is just my theory.) I do like that for once a yume put in a good word for Zero, THANK YOU :3 I will say that Kaname probably does mean well... thinking that humans would be safer without purebloods around, but I just don't like the way he's went about it at all... It would be nice if he could achieve his goal of making the world safer for humans, without killing so many people. It would be nice if someone could understand that point of view once in awhile ^^; It's like the killing goes entirely un-noticed >.< ( Zero kills level E's only, vampires gone mad who present a current threat to humans and cannot be controlled, unless some pureblood is wiling to dole out all their blood... which i don't see happening ^^;) But everything you said about zero is true ^^ Except i wouldn't really say he "supported" yume... more like he accepted it only because it makes yuuki happy and it was her choice. If he supported it, he would have actually put in a good word for the two.. i recall him saying "Go, be with the man who can spend eternity with you..." but i don't recall him saying that he was happy for her or that he was glad she could be with kaname. Obviously he was very upset about it. But that's what friends do....they accept things for you even if it's tough for them.

Okay Kaname's killing methods aren't right morally at all and i do wish he had picked another way, BUT we have to know his reasoning and everything surrounding these events before we can truely judge him. Based on his past actions he only kills to protect or preserve, so i dont think he'd deviate from his path or his own set of morals. Also think about it when he was out, he had ruka protetcting humans to make sure they stayed out of harms way, not really the action of a mass murder. Also why did he let touma live, kaname could have dealt with him sorry but i dont think kaien is really a match for kaname. And Isaya also seems to have gone unharmed otherwise we'd ahve heard something about his death due to his close connection with kaein. We also dont know if the purebloods had done something while kaname was in slumber, Level E's are still in existence so not all purebloods are goodie goodie. Until we get more facts and answers i find it way to early to condemn his actions.

Also keeping yuuki out of his plans was a good thing. One she'd be in more danger with him at the moment, due to what he is doing. Two she had to become more of an equal to him, she couldnt do that with being around him as he is quite a big person to be an equal too. Yuuki had to spread her wings more, by leaving her behind he gave her the freedom to do this, and make some decisions of her own.

With Zero regardless of my ship i have a very big soft spot for him (very close to an obsession ....i cant help it...it just happened). Though he did support yume i think. He supported yuuki in being with kaname and her being close to him remember valentines day and getting the present to kaname? he may not like kaname but he did see him as someone who could care for and protect yuuki. What zero's view is now after the recent chapter we will have to see. And your right it is what friends do.

This may be a bit late to mention this but, you guys got mad at me for saying kaname can be mean...KuranPrince had said zero can be an ass and none of you cared. How is that fair?

KuranPrince wrote:Zero maybe kind and serious... but can be an ass at times to Yuuki.

Really..?

anyway..back on topic..I don't think kaname is completely selfless either. He's basically killing purebloods all for his plan. I feel like kaname usually gets his way. it definitely seems so. Zero has basically never gotten what he's really wanted. The only person kaname and zero really have left is yuuki..and guess what..kaname got her. I understand that kaname has gone through alot of crap too, but zero deserves to get what he wants and it honestly looks like he still loves yuuki. The only person I see deserving yuuki now, is zero. Yuuki is probably the only person zero will ever love. and agreeing with shoujo, Zero is very kind. He told yuuki to go be with kaname and no he wasn't happy about it and probably didn't like that she left, but he let her go. that really was a nice thing to do..and it was probably hard for zero to watch her leave.

as for BloodRedHead, I'm glad that you put in a good word for zero too. I agree that he may not have liked kaname, but he respected the fact that yuuki loved kaname. Especially since he didn't want to confess his love for her because he knew she loved kaname. : ) how can you not feel bad for the guy? >_<

iiXerxes wrote:This may be a bit late to mention this but, you guys got mad at me for saying kaname can be mean...KuranPrince had said zero can be an ass and none of you cared. How is that fair?

KuranPrince wrote:Zero maybe kind and serious... but can be an ass at times to Yuuki.

Really..?

anyway..back on topic..I don't think kaname is completely selfless either. He's basically killing purebloods all for his plan. I feel like kaname usually gets his way. it definitely seems so. Zero has basically never gotten what he's really wanted. The only person kaname and zero really have left is yuuki..and guess what..kaname got her. I understand that kaname has gone through alot of crap too, but zero deserves to get what he wants and it honestly looks like he still loves yuuki. The only person I see deserving yuuki now, is zero. Yuuki is probably the only person zero will ever love. and agreeing with shoujo, Zero is very kind. He told yuuki to go be with kaname and no he wasn't happy about it and probably didn't like that she left, but he let her go. that really was a nice thing to do..and it was probably hard for zero to watch her leave.

as for BloodRedHead, I'm glad that you put in a good word for zero too. I agree that he may not have liked kaname, but he respected the fact that yuuki loved kaname. Especially since he didn't want to confess his love for her because he knew she loved kaname. : ) how can you not feel bad for the guy? >_<

I still don't agree with you. Kaname isn't basically killing all purebloods for his plan. You're denying it. He's only killing head members of pureblood families. Did you accept my comment? No. I see you've ignore the moment Zero points his gun at Yuuki three times, grabs her arm, pulls her hair while drinking her blood during the forbidden act. Zero may be a moral character in the series, but you shouldn't both characters. Kaname is also a very kind character and loves Yuuki as much as her family-- Their own family and especially Kaien. I truly don't see him as Rido's replacement... and I'm sure Yuuki will stop him and separate the bond of Rido within him.

kaname is both more mature yet less mature then zero....
he is more mature is the sence that he can handle problems, unlike zero who would go in and make even more problems! he is also good at planing and understanding how others feel.
he is less mature in the way he can get incredably imature if yuki does something that favores zero more than him like in chapter 24(but that is something i love about kaname) so it is 50% 50%

now for zero he is good in the way he is very determand to stay by yukis side no matter what, unfortunely he failed to do this after she became a pureblood once more. but good for yuki he is comeing back to that promise in chapter 79 by hugging her!!!!!!!
i dont want to offend the zukis but this is my opention.

KuranPrince wrote:I still don't agree with you. Kaname isn't basically killing all purebloods for his plan. You're denying it. He's only killing head members of pureblood families. Did you accept my comment? No. I see you've ignore the moment Zero points his gun at Yuuki three times, grabs her arm, pulls her hair while drinking her blood during the forbidden act. Zero may be a moral character in the series, but you shouldn't both characters. Kaname is also a very kind character and loves Yuuki as much as her family-- Their own family and especially Kaien. I truly don't see him as Rido's replacement... and I'm sure Yuuki will stop him and separate the bond of Rido within him.

what are you talking about...zero didn't PULL her hair....he was basically clinging to it. and that was in the 8th chapter..that was a lonnnggg time ago. but I think Zero is TOTALLY nicer than kaname...yeah he pulls his gun out on yuuki a few times but kaname is killing certain purebloods for his plan, used zero and ichiru so they can massacre purebloods, caused zero's parents to die from letting shizuka out of her cage (which is probably NOT a lie ), leaves yuuki without telling her anything, and I don't think he respects kaien after threatening him saying that he'll destroy him or anyone who gets in his way..I don't see someone like that being kinder than zero when zero hasn't done anything really BAD.

I agree with you fully Lilli!! What has Zero done that is bad? Zero is just angry and depressed because of his family...Kaname is depressed too...Hes killing Purebloods, threatening Kaien, using Zero and Ichiru...He MANIPULATES everyone...

iiXerxes wrote:what are you talking about...zero didn't PULL her hair....he was basically clinging to it. and that was in the 8th chapter..that was a lonnnggg time ago. but I think Zero is TOTALLY nicer than kaname...yeah he pulls his gun out on yuuki a few times but kaname is killing certain purebloods for his plan, used zero and ichiru so they can massacre purebloods, caused zero's parents to die from letting shizuka out of her cage (which is probably NOT a lie ), leaves yuuki without telling her anything, and I don't think he respects kaien after threatening him saying that he'll destroy him or anyone who gets in his way..I don't see someone like that being kinder than zero when zero hasn't done anything really BAD.

Perhaps you're not reading the manga with a peace of mind. Don't compare Zero with Kaname is to apples with oranges. Kaname is nice to Yuuki and wouldn't harm a single fly. Zero maybe nice to Kaname's fiance, but can be a complete ass to her. You're confusing Kaname to Rido and isn't using Zero or Ichiru to massacre purebloods. I find your comment in denial and hypocritical. Kaname had freed Shizuka to be with her lover. But, under Rido's (Shizuka's ex-fiance) had changed the list and the hunters had killed Shizuka's lover (an ex-human). Later, he had chosen Zero as a chess piece to kill the one \being that Kaname simply cannot kill-- RIDO! Let's not forget the fact that he had let the hunter drink his blood (laced with Shizuka's blood) and become a very powerful vampire hunter (thus temporarily preventing Zero to fall into Level-E) and avenge his twin brother's untimely fate and kill Rido.

During the second arc, Zero shouldn't have killed the suspect while Yuuki was gathering information. If he didn't shot the suspect point blank, the intel from the suspect would have been very useful.

SassyKnight wrote:I agree with you fully Lilli!! What has Zero done that is bad? Zero is just angry and depressed because of his family...Kaname is depressed too...Hes killing Purebloods, threatening Kaien, using Zero and Ichiru...He MANIPULATES everyone...

Do you even know what Manipulate means?

Kaname "orders" them to do this. They choose to do it : YES/NO. Simple. Kaname DID NOT use his powers to MANIPULATE his friends like what Sara did. Have you been reading the manga properly? If you have then i am sure, you should know.

If someone have to be manipulated into doing something, than clearly that is NOT really what they intend to do "FROM the BEGINNING".

Kaname manipulate his friends: Aido/Ichijou/Shiki/Rima/Kain/Ruka etc to protect Yuuki while he is away?? The question is: Do they feel like doing it. If they dont. And Kaname "in a way use ANY means to PUSH them to do it, than this is MANIPULATION".

What about Zero? Would you consider Kaname manipulated Zero to protect Yuuki? Since you said Kaname MANIPULATES everyone. Think of the meaning before labeling a character because that doesnt make sense.

If you can continue discussing with arguments and prove that your opinions are not just bashing attempts, this discussion can continue but if you still continue with the sole purpose to flame and to bash (and believe me that shows), have in mind that the moderating team shall not allow it.

Expressing an opinion that can be negative for a character (and we accept that) with evidence is also a part of every debate and certain characterizations can come in the realm of a discussion, but when this is becoming a rather constant pattern behavior this is not acceptable.

So please, flamming and trolling discussions that only aim in provoking and do not add a drop of progression in the discussions, have no place in here. There are other forums where such behaviors can be allowed, this forum does not belong at this category.

I want to make this distinction here so that is clear. Thank you.

iiXerxes wrote:
but I think Zero is TOTALLY nicer than kaname...yeah he pulls his gun out on yuuki a few times

I don't see someone like that being kinder than zero when zero hasn't done anything really BAD.

Well, let's count:

1. Zero to human yuuki *immediately after his trauma* - he slap yuuki's hands because she touched kaname. Zero even hurted yuuki physicaly - blood dripped from her fingers

2. Zero point his gun at yuuki, and said to her that in front of him stay a pureblood who triffles with human lives in their hand. In that moment zero hurt her emotionaly

3. zero attacked yuuki and viciously bit her - the first time when he drank her blood

4. Zero throws yuuki away from the roof.

5. Zero point his gun at her, again. He said to her that he would kill her the next time when he would met her - save god she did nothing which have caused her death, because according to zero's words to kaien he would kill yuuki if he would have a reason to -, and that they are enemies.

6. zero carries a wounded vampire, aka yuuki, potato sac style.

7. zero flungs yuuki violently into a tree - before he giving her his blood

8. zero points his gun at her again

9. in the last chapter zero grab yuuki's arms with a strenght enough to cause her pain

but kaname is killing certain purebloods for his plan,

Kaname tries to accomplish his original plan. Important is what he try to accomplish with it. Kaname tries to create a better world for yuuki, and for humans too.

used zero and ichiru so they can massacre purebloods,

I think kaname failed here. Ichiru killed no pureblood - heck, he was in love with the one who killed his parents -, and the only pureblood zero killed is rido (with yuuki's help ofc).

After the battle with rido, Zero said that his goal is to kill all purebloods, and currently he killed none.

caused zero's parents to die from letting shizuka out of her cage (which is probably NOT a lie ),

I do not doubt kaname released shizuka from her cage. Important is the moment when he did it.
According to the manga, shizuka escaped with her lover. In other words her lover was ALIVE, and by default shizuka, in the moment of her release had no reason to kill zero's parents.

Do not forget that kaname motivated his action to release her in order for her to take revenge on zero's parents, but this is false since shizuka's lover was ALIVE.

leaves yuuki without telling her anything,

Kaname tries to keep yuuki away from danger. And to not forgot that kaname is labeled as a dangerous pureblood, and he doesn't desire such thing for yuuki. If she would have stayed with him, probably she would be seen as an accomplice.

and I don't think he respects kaien after threatening him saying that he'll destroy him or anyone who gets in his way.

I am glad kaname doesn't respect kaien. Currently kaien is more than useless. Apparently he's the hunters president,and the chairman of cross academy, but he has no idea what is happening in his academy. All he do is to stay on that chair and drink tea.

And i do not think kaien respect kaname either. when do they met, kaien came with the goal to kill kaname. when he attacked, he thought he's attacking kaname and not touma.

But even if kaname said he would kill anyone, even kaien, cross kaien is still alive, and stay on his chair doing nothing, except drinking tea.

SassyKnight wrote:
I agree with you fully Lilli!! What has Zero done that is bad? Zero is just angry and depressed because of his family...Kaname is depressed too...Hes killing Purebloods, threatening Kaien, using Zero and Ichiru...He MANIPULATES everyone...

So, kaname manipulated zero in protecting yuuki? Then i am okay with it. This means zero protected yuuki only because kaname told him so, if not zero would have left yuuki to die.

But this is false. Even I, who I am a yume admit that zero protected yuuki because he wanted to, because of the feelings he had for her.

Kaname told zero to be yuuki's shield, and also told him what would happen if he won't kill rido. kaname did not use mind control, or any kind of power. After this it was Zero's decission to deal with rido.

About everyone, except Zero

Kain to kaname, ch 36 vol 8 - Aidou is there too

No matter who the enemy is we would continue to keep watch.
.
.
We don't obey simply because you're a pureblood.

Ruka, ch 37, vol 8

To kaname: I would go to the sun dormitory and be truly useful now.

Kaname said to Seiren to bring the vampires who can walk in daylight to protect day class. Until then ruka was closed in her room - she was shocked because kaname made yuuki his lover.
Ruka made her own decission to step out of her room, and to protect humans.

To kain: I want to show him that I am a cool dependable woman.

Ruka loves kaname, and she wanted to show him she's a strong woman. she doesn't stay on kaname side due to manipulation.

Beside, kaname and yuuki left, leaving people behind them. Ruka, kain, aidou were the ones who searched for him - they wanted to be on his side worried he won't be okay without them, and they tried to become kaname close friends.

Kikotsukino wrote:Kaname "orders" them to do this. They choose to do it : YES/NO. Simple. Kaname DID NOT use his powers to MANIPULATE his friends like what Sara did.

Exactly.
____________________________________

Personally i find both boys are kind in their own way. Zero's kindness isnt very visable, but he's a private person and never likes a fuss so its understandble he is quiet in his approach really. Kaname's kindness is subtle too, though he's a bit more open in some instances in showing kindness mostly with Yuuki and his inner circle. Both boys have been kind and done kind things throughout the manga, we can't just look at the opposite sides bad side all the time we have to all admit their good side too.

@Juliet: I'm right behind you girl!

Shoujo-Zo18 wrote: Zero has ample reason to have the personality he does due to what happened to him as a child. ( which we learned was because of Kaname in chapter 79 might I add....)

For the bolded part:

- FACT: When Shizuka escaped from her cage she escaped WITH her lover which simply means that he was still alive, or no? Hence Shizuka had NO reason to attack or seek for revenge at least from Kiryuus. So when Kaname said that he freed Shizuka in order to attack on Kiryuus … is it a lie or the truth?

- FACT: We know that Kaname lied before, saying that he killed Ouri whereas we know by FACT that Ouri was murdered from Sara.

- FACT: It is more than evident that Kaname wants to push Yuuki away for some reasons. Hence in order to do so he even lied to Yuuki.

So we know what his goal is >> to push Yuuki away and what method he used to do so >> by lying.

Now since we know all the above FACTS how you stated that what happened to Zero as a child was because of Kaname “which we learned in chapter 79 might I add....”

Can’t you see the evident lie there? Or you deliberately tossing aside the FACTS cuz do not suit in your attempt to badmouth Kaname? Which is it? I’m just asking lol.

Why did he let Yuuki crush on him though I wonder....? Because he is a very selfess guy who wouldn't go so far as to tell her who to love just because he cares for her...

Since when Zero had let Yuuki “crush” on Kaname? As far as I know BY FACTS when Zero met Yuuki she had already a “crush” on Kaname … didn’t she?

In FACT what Zero says (and I’m using his words since as it seems you only accept as valid only what Zero says lol) >>

Zero: “A PB vampire … and that human girl adores him
(Official volume 10)
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2170-19/vampire-knight/chapter-44.html

So >>
1. When you say “crush” instead of “adore” you’re twisting FACTS from the actual manga apparently trying to downgrade the power or the level of Yuuki’s emotions for Kaname.

2. When you’re saying that Zero actually let Yuuki “crush” on Kaname you’re twisting FACTS of the manga cuz as I proved above Yukki was already IN LOVE with Kaname when Zero first met her.

3. Thus from where it stems your interpretation that Zero is a selfless guy because he let her “crush” on Kaname?

4. When he learnt that Yuuki was actually a PB vampire … did he or did he not point a gun on her because he was thinking his own emotions/hatred for vampires?
Also … did he or did he not revealed his romantic feelings to Yuuki AFTER Yuuki said to him >>

Yuuki: I want ONLY my big brother’s blood … it fills my head (official volume 10)
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2172-21/vampire-knight/chapter-46.html

So, despite that Zero knew that Yuuki was IN LOVE with Kaname and also she was ready to leave with him, Zero expressed his love for her in that very moment and on top of that, in the end, he said that from now on they are enemies and that he shall kill her the next time.

Did he consider Yuuki’s feelings hearing all that from her dear friend; or he considered his own feelings and needs and hate there? Just asking …

And for the record I DO NOT deem Zero as a selfish guy in overall … I just wanted to underline that judging someone by isolating ONE moment or ONE action or ONE wording, tossing aside the big picture, then the judgement is highly possible to be wrong and narrow-minded.

he may have been pained by it but he never told Yuuki not to go after Kaname. All of this is fact from the manga,

Oh really? He NEVER … not once; he “told” her (with words or actions < which for some fans are louder than words lol) not to go after Kaname huh?

FACT #1
Yuuki: After that I’ll give Kaname a slap or two or three …
http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/76/21
>> and Zero grabbed her arm … and before anyone says that Yuuki didn’t say that she’ll go to Kaname … well in order to give him some slaps she will have FIRST to find him no?

FACT #2
Yuuki: Once I’ve dealt with this problem I will stop Kaname
http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/78/36

>> and while as we can see from the above scan Zero was leaving … at once when Yuuki said the magical phrase “I will stop Kaname” what he did again? >>

http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/78/37

>> he grabbed her again saying that Kaname is the filthier being.

FACT #3
Yuuki: Kaname … MY KANAME is over there … I HAVE TO GO WITH HIM
http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/78/37

>> and what Zero is doing for the THIRD time? >>
http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/79/5

>> he grabs her arm STOPPING her from GOING to Kaname …

When he badmouth Kaname when Yuuki says that she’ll go to Kaname in his way says >> “do not go”, moreover when he acts on it, by grabbing and stopping her from GOING … so when you say >>

Shoujo-Zo18 wrote: but he never told Yuuki not to go after Kaname. All of this is fact from the manga,

>> for what facts are you talking about?

I don't agree that Kaname is selfless..because he monopolized everyone around him to protect the thing the most important to him, Yuuki

When you say monopolized everyone what exactly do you mean?

Monopolize definition:
1. To dominate by excluding others: monopolized the conversation.
2. to have, control, or make use of fully, excluding others
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/monopolize

According to above definition …Who; dominate in order to protect Yuuki? By any chance you mean the NC? Cuz as far as I know they had stated more than once that they following Kaname OUT of respect because he did NOT used his powers as a PB to control them. So who are “everyone around him” that he monopolized???

Just one reference >>

Kain: No matter who the enemy is … we’ll continue to keep watch … WE DO NOT OBEY YOU SIMPLY BECAUSE YOU ARE A PB (volume 8 )
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2162-9/vampire-knight/chapter-36.html

( not caring what she'll think about his actions and keeping her out of all his plans ;

Do you by any chance know the reason of why Kaname left Yuuki out of his plan? Because as far as I know this is still veiled in the manga. Please provide the scan where it is stated that Kaname doesn’t care about what Yuuki thinks.

Cuz as far as I can understand from some recent FACTS for the manga … he is torn inside about Yuuki i.e. he cares and in fact he burns about what Yuuki thinks! >>




http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/76/24
http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/76/25
http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/76/26

also in recent chapters i don't think its about protecting yuuki anymore..its about getting rid of all purebloods, his ultimate goal since ancient times,

Even IF he wants to get rid all the PBs (which it is not certain yet), for what and for who he wants and doing that? It isn’t for creating a safer/better world for Yuuki?

- FACT: Kaname: I will carry out what I refrained from doing during that first period of despair … FIRST I’ll deal with you all… (volume 9)
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2169-6/vampire-knight/chapter-43.html

Kaname says that the extermination of the senate is a part of a plan he had as an ancestor and they were just the first to go. Viz his original plan (goal as you say) started since the 1st arc. A little afterwards he also says >>

- FACT: Kaname: I did it to protect the precious FUTURE … because they were devouring everything so greedily. (volume 10)
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2173-28/vampire-knight/chapter-47.html

>> the PRECIOUS FUTURE and he is embracing Yuuki ^^

So, combining the above portions we can see that Kaname may carry out his original plan but he is doing so in order to PROTECT the precious future i.e. in this precious future Yuuki is at least included, no? And note that we are talking for the same plan that he had formed in his mind in ancient times and that he is continuing and now in the recent chapters.

- FACT: Kaname: Maybe I’ve been revelling in these happy times and avoiding IT … But I’ve made up my mind … I WILL PREPARE A PLACE WHERE YOU WON’T HAVE TO LIVE IN FEAR … (volume 8 )
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2161-33/vampire-knight/chapter-35.html

- FACT: Kaname: In my childish mind I felt that I had seen those eyes somewhere before … and then for some reason I thought this time I WANT TO KEEP PROTECTING THIS WARMTH
http://www.mangareader.net/104-57201-29/vampire-knight/chapter-64.html

So is he or is he not carrying out his OP in order to prepare a safer place for Yuuki, protecting her warmth and the precious future???
Does he or does he not DOING his plan FOR Yuuki; whatever and IF this plan is?

And something more recent that underlines all the above and which confirms that Kaname’s plan/goal has ALWAYS the same CORE i.e. Yuuki!

Kaien: The plans you made that time (refers on Kaname’s thought to turn Yuuki into human again) never happened … After changing the plan is this the path you choose?
http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/75/12

Kaname: It is only that my path constantly changed, but my motive HAS ALWAYS[u] BEEN THE [u]SAME
http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/75/26

His motive is always the same … what could possibly be his motive when he was thinking to turn Yuuki into a human again? What he would have to gain from that decision? Isn’t apparent that “his gain” was Yuuki’s protection/happiness?

>> His motive has ALWAYS been the SAME … ALWAYS > from the moment he saw Yuuki’s eyes until NOW. Which is his UNCHANGED motive; according to the above portions that I’ve provided, is to prepare a safer place for Yuuki, protecting her warmth and the precious future … only his path constantly changed i.e. the way he could achieve his goal!

So, where are your FACTS which can counter back the above FACTS that proving your interpretation wrong???

And to go back to >>

I don't agree that Kaname is selfless

How selfish could ever Kaname be; who is willing to sacrifice his OWN life in order to protect another being > Yuuki???

How selfish could ever Kaname be; who instead of taking Yuuki and disappear sending the whole world to hell, he prefers to set her free and try to prepare a safest world and NOT only for Yuuki … pushing away his only love and hope for happiness … the ONLY light into his life???

How selfish could ever Kaname be; who helped the human villagers to survive after the climate change? >>
http://www.mangareader.net/104-54910-26/vampire-knight/chapter-62.html

How selfish could ever Kaname be; who shared his blood with the human villagers as medicine and who refused to turn his fangs into any human being to the extent of passing out??? >>
http://www.mangareader.net/104-54910-27/vampire-knight/chapter-62.html
http://www.mangareader.net/104-54910-31/vampire-knight/chapter-62.html

How selfish could ever Kaname be; who didn’t say a word to humans who despite what he had done for them, they casted him away because of his different nature? >>
http://www.mangareader.net/104-56087-11/vampire-knight/chapter-63.html

And lastly … how selfish could EVER Kaname be; who was willing to sacrifice his own life not for one beloved person BUT for saving the WHOLE HUMAN race???!
http://www.mangareader.net/104-57201-6/vampire-knight/chapter-64.html

So please … stop looking Kaname ONLY through Zero’s eyes –who is biased from the day ONE, without knowing ANYTHING about Kaname- and start to look ALL the FACTS that the author provides … or else your estimations and judgements bearing limited value in the best case …

It would be nice if he could achieve his goal of making the world safer for humans, without killing so many people. It would be nice if someone could understand that point of view once in awhile ^^; It's like the killing goes entirely un-noticed >.< ( Zero kills level E's only, vampires gone mad who present a current threat to humans and cannot be controlled, unless some pureblood is wiling to dole out all their blood... which i don't see happening ^^;)

Are we gonna judge Kaname and VK with our humanish standards??? Because IF we do that then almost every character in VK would be deemed as murderers right now!

1. Even Yuuki has killed Rido and took her Artemis bearing the intention to KILL whoever had a death wish << this in OUR HUMANISH world it is a CRIME.

2. Are we talking about numbers? Then Kaien and Yagari as old hunters have slaughtered numerous vampires till now and Kaien even tried to KILL Juuri who hadn’t done anything wrong! << This is a crime in our humanish world!

3. Did or didn’t Takuma tried to kill his own grandfather? Was he in the hunters list? Was he a level-e vampire? NO … so Takuma is a murderer as well judging from our humanish scope. (I think these are enough examples to convey my point here)

3. And if you go with the motto >> “yeah but the hunters are applying the law” >> what law? The law that says “KILLING ANY VAMPIRE ISN’T A CRIME”?! Note any vampire regardless if is Level-e or NOT. So according with the hunters and humanish LAW IN VK Kaname hasn’t commit ANY crime regardless the number of the vampires he has killed.

Do you by any chance know that Shizuka –a PB who killed two hunters (i.e. humans) and turned another human into vampire- she was NOT in hunters’ list?

Therefore how fair or right is hunters’ list which as it seems you only recognise; can you answer me???

4. Even before that law starts to exist in VK society as it formed now … the hunters in ancient times had killed numerous vampires and PBs along side with Kaname and other ancestors’ PBs and saved the human race from doom!

So really what have change now? OR you haven’t read Sara’s plan (or earlier Asato’s) that their wish was to kill ALL the PBs and make the humans and the rest of the vampires their slaves?

Hasn’t that WAR similar characteristics as the ancient times only that now this war it’s taking place underground; rather than open wide as in the past??? Isn’t the CORE of these wars ALWAYS the same; >> domination of the vampires over human race?

So really … what different Kaname is doing NOW from the PAST? Hadn’t the ancestor woman wanted the same thing and dictated Kaname to do so? I haven’t seen any of the Zeki’s calling the HW awful though!

But regardless if Kaname commits crimes or not, HE is the first one who has condemned himself … firstly he is more than cruel to his own self because if you had took a step back and watched his character you would have realised that Kaname isn’t enjoying with his actions … he is bearing a burden upon his shoulders that is killing him, first! He was the most peaceful PB ever. Do you ever bothered to wonder what drove Kaname to this path now and in the past as well? Why to even try to save the world; the moment that he could enjoy his immortal life sending the whole world to hell!?

Believe me … Kaname would be the happiest IF he could find another way.
And bottom line … IMO we can judge the characters in VK using only one criterion>> are the killings that are bounded to do justified? Are they killing bad guys or not? Because bad guys who can inflict harm and disaster aren’t ONLY the level-es or the vampires who are on hunters list … on the contrary are the PBs and the nobles’ vampires who have the power and the means to do so.

Therefore … give to Kaname at least the benefit of the doubt, until everything will be revealed and we know what exactly is he doing; why; and what he will achieve by doing it, before you deemed him as mean, awful, selfish, serial-killer #@$% etc.

Zero kills level E's only, vampires gone mad who present a current threat to humans and cannot be controlled, unless some pureblood is wiling to dole out all their blood... which i don't see happening

5. Really??? Then this vampire was level-e??? >>
http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/72/2

>> who later Zero killed on the spot? >>
http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/72/7

No … so you are wrong cuz Zero has killed a vampire who WASN’T a level-e as you claimed. And Yuuki was against his action. Does this make him a criminal? According to VK LAW no … but if the VK law applies to Zero why it shouldn’t apply to Kaname?

And btw … the biggest crime isn’t harming humans?

Well in this case Zero devoured a HUMAN who moreover was his own brother!

So if we attempt to apply OUR humanish standards and ethics then Zero have done an atrocity there >> he devoured a HUMAN being, but I haven’t seen any of his supports to characterize Zero creepy, awful, monster and ***** etc etc once!

Or your ethics applied ONLY to Kaname?

That’s why I said that we can NOT judge Kaname neither the whole VK world according with our ethic and morals because in this way most of the characters have done atrocities …

And something lastly for this matter … >>

It would be nice if someone could understand that point of view once in awhile ^^; It's like the killing goes entirely un-noticed >.<

Do you even realise what you are claiming above? Are you saying that Kaname’s supporters have NO ethics and morals???? That they are supporting a serial-killer???

Who give you the right to judge Kaname’s supporters like that? This is an assault/offense and you have NO right to play high and mighty. Watch what you’re accusing for, other PEOPLE … your hate for Kaname doesn’t allow you to offend people’s morals and ethics! Enough said *sigh*


PS 1. My above long answer, apply as well to your fellows-shippers SassyKnight and iiXerxes … you seem like, a close team here … so I just took your post as a reference only to answer overall.

PS 2. If any of you want to counter back my post you should do it by providing FACTS which are supported from the manga that contradict my FACTS from the manga cuz as you can see I tried to back up my words using scans and wordings from the manga. If you won’t do that then your constantly attempt to blacken Kaname, in every thread, “garnishing” him with all kind of epithets and twisting FACTS could be deemed as deliberately attempt for flaming and provoking the other fandom.

And for backing up my words again click on the spoiler >>

Spoiler:

nina wrote:

Shoujo-Zo18 wrote: Zero has ample reason to have the personality he does due to what happened to him as a child. ( which we learned was because of Kaname in chapter 79 might I add....)

For the bolded part:

- FACT: When Shizuka escaped from her cage she escaped WITH her lover which simply means that he was still alive, or no? Hence Shizuka had NO reason to attack or seek for revenge at least from Kiryuus. So when Kaname said that he freed Shizuka in order to attack on Kiryuus … is it a lie or the truth?

- FACT: We know that Kaname lied before, saying that he killed Ouri whereas we know by FACT that Ouri was murdered from Sara.

- FACT: It is more than evident that Kaname wants to push Yuuki away for some reasons. Hence in order to do so he even lied to Yuuki.

So we know what his goal is >> to push Yuuki away and what method he used to do so >> by lying.

Now since we know all the above FACTS how you stated that what happened to Zero as a child was because of Kaname “which we learned in chapter 79 might I add....”

Can’t you see the evident lie there? Or you deliberately tossing aside the FACTS cuz do not suit in your attempt to badmouth Kaname? Which is it? I’m just asking lol.

Why did he let Yuuki crush on him though I wonder....? Because he is a very selfess guy who wouldn't go so far as to tell her who to love just because he cares for her...

Since when Zero had let Yuuki “crush” on Kaname? As far as I know BY FACTS when Zero met Yuuki she had already a “crush” on Kaname … didn’t she?

In FACT what Zero says (and I’m using his words since as it seems you only accept as valid only what Zero says lol) >>

Zero: “A PB vampire … and that human girl adores him
(Official volume 10)
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2170-19/vampire-knight/chapter-44.html

So >>
1. When you say “crush” instead of “adore” you’re twisting FACTS from the actual manga apparently trying to downgrade the power or the level of Yuuki’s emotions for Kaname.

2. When you’re saying that Zero actually let Yuuki “crush” on Kaname you’re twisting FACTS of the manga cuz as I proved above Yukki was already IN LOVE with Kaname when Zero first met her.

3. Thus from where it stems your interpretation that Zero is a selfless guy because he let her “crush” on Kaname?

4. When he learnt that Yuuki was actually a PB vampire … did he or did he not point a gun on her because he was thinking his own emotions/hatred for vampires?
Also … did he or did he not revealed his romantic feelings to Yuuki AFTER Yuuki said to him >>

Yuuki: I want ONLY my big brother’s blood … it fills my head (official volume 10)
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2172-21/vampire-knight/chapter-46.html

So, despite that Zero knew that Yuuki was IN LOVE with Kaname and also she was ready to leave with him, Zero expressed his love for her in that very moment and on top of that, in the end, he said that from now on they are enemies and that he shall kill her the next time.

Did he consider Yuuki’s feelings hearing all that from her dear friend; or he considered his own feelings and needs and hate there? Just asking …

And for the record I DO NOT deem Zero as a selfish guy in overall … I just wanted to underline that judging someone by isolating ONE moment or ONE action or ONE wording, tossing aside the big picture, then the judgement is highly possible to be wrong and narrow-minded.

he may have been pained by it but he never told Yuuki not to go after Kaname. All of this is fact from the manga,

Oh really? He NEVER … not once; he “told” her (with words or actions < which for some fans are louder than words lol) not to go after Kaname huh?

FACT #1
Yuuki: After that I’ll give Kaname a slap or two or three …
http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/76/21
>> and Zero grabbed her arm … and before anyone says that Yuuki didn’t say that she’ll go to Kaname … well in order to give him some slaps she will have FIRST to find him no?

FACT #2
Yuuki: Once I’ve dealt with this problem I will stop Kaname
http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/78/36

>> and while as we can see from the above scan Zero was leaving … at once when Yuuki said the magical phrase “I will stop Kaname” what he did again? >>

http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/78/37

>> he grabbed her again saying that Kaname is the filthier being.

FACT #3
Yuuki: Kaname … MY KANAME is over there … I HAVE TO GO WITH HIM
http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/78/37

>> and what Zero is doing for the THIRD time? >>
http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/79/5

>> he grabs her arm STOPPING her from GOING to Kaname …

When he badmouth Kaname when Yuuki says that she’ll go to Kaname in his way says >> “do not go”, moreover when he acts on it, by grabbing and stopping her from GOING … so when you say >>

Shoujo-Zo18 wrote: but he never told Yuuki not to go after Kaname. All of this is fact from the manga,

>> for what facts are you talking about?

I don't agree that Kaname is selfless..because he monopolized everyone around him to protect the thing the most important to him, Yuuki

When you say monopolized everyone what exactly do you mean?

Monopolize definition:
1. To dominate by excluding others: monopolized the conversation.
2. to have, control, or make use of fully, excluding others
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/monopolize

According to above definition …Who; dominate in order to protect Yuuki? By any chance you mean the NC? Cuz as far as I know they had stated more than once that they following Kaname OUT of respect because he did NOT used his powers as a PB to control them. So who are “everyone around him” that he monopolized???

Just one reference >>

Kain: No matter who the enemy is … we’ll continue to keep watch … WE DO NOT OBEY YOU SIMPLY BECAUSE YOU ARE A PB (volume 8 )
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2162-9/vampire-knight/chapter-36.html

( not caring what she'll think about his actions and keeping her out of all his plans ;

Do you by any chance know the reason of why Kaname left Yuuki out of his plan? Because as far as I know this is still veiled in the manga. Please provide the scan where it is stated that Kaname doesn’t care about what Yuuki thinks.

Cuz as far as I can understand from some recent FACTS for the manga … he is torn inside about Yuuki i.e. he cares and in fact he burns about what Yuuki thinks! >>




http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/76/24
http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/76/25
http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/76/26

also in recent chapters i don't think its about protecting yuuki anymore..its about getting rid of all purebloods, his ultimate goal since ancient times,

Even IF he wants to get rid all the PBs (which it is not certain yet), for what and for who he wants and doing that? It isn’t for creating a safer/better world for Yuuki?

- FACT: Kaname: I will carry out what I refrained from doing during that first period of despair … FIRST I’ll deal with you all… (volume 9)
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2169-6/vampire-knight/chapter-43.html

Kaname says that the extermination of the senate is a part of a plan he had as an ancestor and they were just the first to go. Viz his original plan (goal as you say) started since the 1st arc. A little afterwards he also says >>

- FACT: Kaname: I did it to protect the precious FUTURE … because they were devouring everything so greedily. (volume 10)
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2173-28/vampire-knight/chapter-47.html

>> the PRECIOUS FUTURE and he is embracing Yuuki ^^

So, combining the above portions we can see that Kaname may carry out his original plan but he is doing so in order to PROTECT the precious future i.e. in this precious future Yuuki is at least included, no? And note that we are talking for the same plan that he had formed in his mind in ancient times and that he is continuing and now in the recent chapters.

- FACT: Kaname: Maybe I’ve been revelling in these happy times and avoiding IT … But I’ve made up my mind … I WILL PREPARE A PLACE WHERE YOU WON’T HAVE TO LIVE IN FEAR … (volume 8 )
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2161-33/vampire-knight/chapter-35.html

- FACT: Kaname: In my childish mind I felt that I had seen those eyes somewhere before … and then for some reason I thought this time I WANT TO KEEP PROTECTING THIS WARMTH
http://www.mangareader.net/104-57201-29/vampire-knight/chapter-64.html

So is he or is he not carrying out his OP in order to prepare a safer place for Yuuki, protecting her warmth and the precious future???
Does he or does he not DOING his plan FOR Yuuki; whatever and IF this plan is?

And something more recent that underlines all the above and which confirms that Kaname’s plan/goal has ALWAYS the same CORE i.e. Yuuki!

Kaien: The plans you made that time (refers on Kaname’s thought to turn Yuuki into human again) never happened … After changing the plan is this the path you choose?
http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/75/12

Kaname: It is only that my path constantly changed, but my motive HAS ALWAYS[u] BEEN THE [u]SAME
http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/75/26

His motive is always the same … what could possibly be his motive when he was thinking to turn Yuuki into a human again? What he would have to gain from that decision? Isn’t apparent that “his gain” was Yuuki’s protection/happiness?

>> His motive has ALWAYS been the SAME … ALWAYS > from the moment he saw Yuuki’s eyes until NOW. Which is his UNCHANGED motive; according to the above portions that I’ve provided, is to prepare a safer place for Yuuki, protecting her warmth and the precious future … only his path constantly changed i.e. the way he could achieve his goal!

So, where are your FACTS which can counter back the above FACTS that proving your interpretation wrong???

And to go back to >>

I don't agree that Kaname is selfless

How selfish could ever Kaname be; who is willing to sacrifice his OWN life in order to protect another being > Yuuki???

How selfish could ever Kaname be; who instead of taking Yuuki and disappear sending the whole world to hell, he prefers to set her free and try to prepare a safest world and NOT only for Yuuki … pushing away his only love and hope for happiness … the ONLY light into his life???

How selfish could ever Kaname be; who helped the human villagers to survive after the climate change? >>
http://www.mangareader.net/104-54910-26/vampire-knight/chapter-62.html

How selfish could ever Kaname be; who shared his blood with the human villagers as medicine and who refused to turn his fangs into any human being to the extent of passing out??? >>
http://www.mangareader.net/104-54910-27/vampire-knight/chapter-62.html
http://www.mangareader.net/104-54910-31/vampire-knight/chapter-62.html

How selfish could ever Kaname be; who didn’t say a word to humans who despite what he had done for them, they casted him away because of his different nature? >>
http://www.mangareader.net/104-56087-11/vampire-knight/chapter-63.html

And lastly … how selfish could EVER Kaname be; who was willing to sacrifice his own life not for one beloved person BUT for saving the WHOLE HUMAN race???!
http://www.mangareader.net/104-57201-6/vampire-knight/chapter-64.html

So please … stop looking Kaname ONLY through Zero’s eyes –who is biased from the day ONE, without knowing ANYTHING about Kaname- and start to look ALL the FACTS that the author provides … or else your estimations and judgements bearing limited value in the best case …

It would be nice if he could achieve his goal of making the world safer for humans, without killing so many people. It would be nice if someone could understand that point of view once in awhile ^^; It's like the killing goes entirely un-noticed >.< ( Zero kills level E's only, vampires gone mad who present a current threat to humans and cannot be controlled, unless some pureblood is wiling to dole out all their blood... which i don't see happening ^^;)

Are we gonna judge Kaname and VK with our humanish standards??? Because IF we do that then almost every character in VK would be deemed as murderers right now!

1. Even Yuuki has killed Rido and took her Artemis bearing the intention to KILL whoever had a death wish << this in OUR HUMANISH world it is a CRIME.

2. Are we talking about numbers? Then Kaien and Yagari as old hunters have slaughtered numerous vampires till now and Kaien even tried to KILL Juuri who hadn’t done anything wrong! << This is a crime in our humanish world!

3. Did or didn’t Takuma tried to kill his own grandfather? Was he in the hunters list? Was he a level-e vampire? NO … so Takuma is a murderer as well judging from our humanish scope. (I think these are enough examples to convey my point here)

3. And if you go with the motto >> “yeah but the hunters are applying the law” >> what law? The law that says “KILLING ANY VAMPIRE ISN’T A CRIME”?! Note any vampire regardless if is Level-e or NOT. So according with the hunters and humanish LAW IN VK Kaname hasn’t commit ANY crime regardless the number of the vampires he has killed.

Do you by any chance know that Shizuka –a PB who killed two hunters (i.e. humans) and turned another human into vampire- she was NOT in hunters’ list?

Therefore how fair or right is hunters’ list which as it seems you only recognise; can you answer me???

4. Even before that law starts to exist in VK society as it formed now … the hunters in ancient times had killed numerous vampires and PBs along side with Kaname and other ancestors’ PBs and saved the human race from doom!

So really what have change now? OR you haven’t read Sara’s plan (or earlier Asato’s) that their wish was to kill ALL the PBs and make the humans and the rest of the vampires their slaves?

Hasn’t that WAR similar characteristics as the ancient times only that now this war it’s taking place underground; rather than open wide as in the past??? Isn’t the CORE of these wars ALWAYS the same; >> domination of the vampires over human race?

So really … what different Kaname is doing NOW from the PAST? Hadn’t the ancestor woman wanted the same thing and dictated Kaname to do so? I haven’t seen any of the Zeki’s calling the HW awful though!

But regardless if Kaname commits crimes or not, HE is the first one who has condemned himself … firstly he is more than cruel to his own self because if you had took a step back and watched his character you would have realised that Kaname isn’t enjoying with his actions … he is bearing a burden upon his shoulders that is killing him, first! He was the most peaceful PB ever. Do you ever bothered to wonder what drove Kaname to this path now and in the past as well? Why to even try to save the world; the moment that he could enjoy his immortal life sending the whole world to hell!?

Believe me … Kaname would be the happiest IF he could find another way.
And bottom line … IMO we can judge the characters in VK using only one criterion>> are the killings that are bounded to do justified? Are they killing bad guys or not? Because bad guys who can inflict harm and disaster aren’t ONLY the level-es or the vampires who are on hunters list … on the contrary are the PBs and the nobles’ vampires who have the power and the means to do so.

Therefore … give to Kaname at least the benefit of the doubt, until everything will be revealed and we know what exactly is he doing; why; and what he will achieve by doing it, before you deemed him as mean, awful, selfish, serial-killer #@$% etc.

Zero kills level E's only, vampires gone mad who present a current threat to humans and cannot be controlled, unless some pureblood is wiling to dole out all their blood... which i don't see happening

5. Really??? Then this vampire was level-e??? >>
http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/72/2

>> who later Zero killed on the spot? >>
http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/72/7

No … so you are wrong cuz Zero has killed a vampire who WASN’T a level-e as you claimed. And Yuuki was against his action. Does this make him a criminal? According to VK LAW no … but if the VK law applies to Zero why it shouldn’t apply to Kaname?

And btw … the biggest crime isn’t harming humans?

Well in this case Zero devoured a HUMAN who moreover was his own brother!

So if we attempt to apply OUR humanish standards and ethics then Zero have done an atrocity there >> he devoured a HUMAN being, but I haven’t seen any of his supports to characterize Zero creepy, awful, monster and ***** etc etc once!

Or your ethics applied ONLY to Kaname?

That’s why I said that we can NOT judge Kaname neither the whole VK world according with our ethic and morals because in this way most of the characters have done atrocities …

And something lastly for this matter … >>

It would be nice if someone could understand that point of view once in awhile ^^; It's like the killing goes entirely un-noticed >.<

Do you even realise what you are claiming above? Are you saying that Kaname’s supporters have NO ethics and morals???? That they are supporting a serial-killer???

Who give you the right to judge Kaname’s supporters like that? This is an assault/offense and you have NO right to play high and mighty. Watch what you’re accusing for, other PEOPLE … your hate for Kaname doesn’t allow you to offend people’s morals and ethics! Enough said *sigh*

******************

PS 1. My above long answer, apply as well to your fellows-shippers SassyKnight and iiXerxes … you seem like, a close team here … so I just took your post as a reference only to answer overall.

PS 2. If any of you want to counter back my post you should do it by providing FACTS which are supported from the manga that contradict my FACTS from the manga cuz as you can see I tried to back up my words using scans and wordings from the manga. If you won’t do that then your constantly attempt to blacken Kaname, in every thread, “garnishing” him with all kind of epithets and twisting FACTS could be deemed as deliberately attempt for flaming and provoking the other fandom.

And for backing up my words again click on the spoiler >>

Spoiler:

nina that is a speech i will never forget!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

@nina:
great! you're so right with everything. (:

great post nina

@Nina amazing post, I will tell it as simple as I can; Bravo!! (I think that I will copy this for future reference, if you do not mind LOL)...

@Nina: Truly amazing post! You nailed it!

Am I the forth one to like it? Nina my thanks for this amazing post! Thank you for protecting the dignity of us fans...Of course we have morals and ethnics...I thinkt the persons you addressed just ignored the intentions of Kaname they just condemned him and Kaname´s fans...That is absolutely cruel and false! There are many aspects which have to be taken in consideration!


Thank you too for making clear that the persons who are posting these things are teaming up...I feel offended by that and insulted...On top of that this is making me asolutely sad because I believe in a forum where bashing and offending has no place! And I think that a lot of other ones like nina think the same way....

I gave you a positive vote because your post is one of the best and most touching ones that I read in the last time! Thank you so much!!!

@Nina: Astounded by all that evidence. You sure know how to back everything up, thats why

I agree with katherine thanks for protecting our dignity in respect to ethical and moral issues. The thing is all in vk have done wrong, or done something morally wrong. You can't point fingers just at one, you'd have to point fingers at all characters.

We can't judge kaname fully yet. One half the facts are missing and two we don't know his reasoning. How anyone can really find him guilty without half the evidence infront of them, i find being biased. Seriously anyone who does law or has watched CSI, NCIS, Law and order etc, knows you have to have hard evidence and full evidence to make a verdict or judge. And then looking back into the past and kaname's actions before and his words over the two arcs.....isnt it obvious he isnt as simple or straightforward as being black and white? All characters are a shade of grey in this story.

I think some people are being far to quick to judge Kaname, and have ignored alot of his past, his words and some of his actions. With all Nina's evidence that shows alot about Kaname, his character and his intentions. And it paints a rather better picture that what others have said about him previously all over the net.

Your post was excellent, you had covered everything.

Nowdays I had noticed that is normal for some to judge kaname's actions without knowing the facts at all. Their reasons are subjectives and not objectives.
And is worse when the facts are ignored on purpose.

Seriously anyone who does law or has watched CSI, NCIS, Law and order etc, knows you have to have hard evidence and full evidence to make a verdict or judge

A little correction for the bolded part: is Order and Law. - at the begging of the movie, the police investigate the crime *Order* and later the prosecutor try to convict the guilty one *Law*.
I do watch NCIS, Order and Law, CSI or The Practice *this movie is only about lawyers*.

As a jury member, to convict someone you must be sure beyond resonable doubt that that person is guilty.

Currently, based on vk law, kaname cannot be convicted.

aya-chan wrote:

Seriously anyone who does law or has watched CSI, NCIS, Law and order etc, knows you have to have hard evidence and full evidence to make a verdict or judge

A little correction for the bolded part: is Order and Law. - at the begging of the movie, the police investigate the crime *Order* and later the prosecutor try to convict the guilty one *Law*.
I do watch NCIS, Order and Law, CSI or The Practice *this movie is only about lawyers*.

Actually there's a program here in the UK called Law and Order. Sorry probably shouldn't have used it as it isn't well known. Lol!

Bloodredhead wrote:

aya-chan wrote:

Seriously anyone who does law or has watched CSI, NCIS, Law and order etc, knows you have to have hard evidence and full evidence to make a verdict or judge

A little correction for the bolded part: is Order and Law. - at the begging of the movie, the police investigate the crime *Order* and later the prosecutor try to convict the guilty one *Law*.
I do watch NCIS, Order and Law, CSI or The Practice *this movie is only about lawyers*.

Actually there's a program here in the UK called Law and Order. Sorry probably shouldn't have used it as it isn't well known. Lol!

I know this TV-series too We can see it here in France too ;) So it seems like it is quite popular ;)