Zero or Kaname?

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Which one do you like most for Yuuki?

Bloodredhead wrote:

Shoujo-Zo18 wrote:

Bloodredhead wrote:

No i didnt say you were saying aya-chan lied i just thought you had got confused. My bad.

No i wasnt saying that shizuka didnt kill the kiryu's out of revenge as she did. Thats a fact. What i was saying, was if kaname let shizuka out with her lover then it wasn't to do with taking any revenge on the kiryu's, as shizuka's lover was still alive. The kiryu's hadnt killed him yet, so the revenge she was seeking wasn't against the kiryu's when kaname let her out. So who did she wish to envoke revenge on then? The only thing i can think of is the council or rido.

Now think about it shizuka has been locked up by the council in a cage. No love. No happiness. I doubt anyone would want that life, if you can call it that. There are a few things i have wondered with why the council had shizuka locked up from the start. What were the benefits they were getting? This is something i am quite curious about and have had a few thoguhts about.

Hm, you're right, seems like she should want to take revenge on the council...but she didn't. Could it be that they averted her attention from themselves by having her lover killed to get her more angry at someone else? But Rido's the one who did that. Maybe he wanted to mess with the Kiryuu's... or mess with Shizuka since he knew the one person close to her disappearing would make her go mad. Rido is twisted like that, I can seer him playing that sort of "game".

yes thats some of the things i have been thinking, the council then combatted with having her lover takne out. we've seen the ties between the council and rido to the association president. so having shizuka's lover put on the list i dont think would have been hard for them. one thing is i dont think the council or rido would have liked how a level D was so close to a pureblood. so getting rid of shizuka's lover to them could be bringing shizuka back under control, though they dont seem to have accounted for how her lose could make her go mad. rido for one wouldnt have liked it, he didnt get juri so then being rejected really by shizuka for a level D, could have hit his pride quite a bit. also as you said he may have just wanted to mess with her. he's done that before quite a few times.

there seem a few possibilities really.

Wait!! You know what I just realized? Kaname said "No, it was to take revenge on a certain hunter couple..." (which I now realize that part is a lie) but I couldn't remember what the first part was so I looked back at the chapter. He said " To remove Shizuka-san's grudge..." Could it be that he meant her grudge against the council? Maybe he spoke with her and said to forgive the council and he would let her out....? That would make so much sense. o.o I think we've figured out the true meaning in everything he said in that scene xD

However, there's still the scene where Kaname was younger and he saw the Kiryuu twins...and Ichijou said "And that was the beginning of his plans." I want to know where that comes into play. >.< Unless Kaname was the one who tampered with the hunter list, or convinced Rido to do it, what else could he have done at that time to manipulate the Kiryuu's...? I mean, it's assumed that they were involved in his plan since he saw them and got shocked and Ichijou said that was the start of his plans.... but how were they involved?

I never said that kaname wasn't the one who freed shizuka. All I said is that he lied when kaname said he released her under the pretext the take revenge on kiryu's.

Manga shows that her lover was alive, and that she ran away with her lover, so kaname motive to release her is false.

The phrase "I did what I did so she could have her revenge" I think is true, but not the part "So she could have her revenge on a certain hunter couple."

My theory is that kaname released her for her to have revenge on the ones who locked her into a cage: the council and rido. I think shizuka was the first card he tried to use to eliminate Rido, since he couldn't give him the final blow.

Another theory of mine of that rido decided to mess with shizuka - to put her lover on hunters list - because he was uncomfortable with her in freedom. Shizuka was never submissive, and she could represent a danger for him - rido was in a vulnerable condition, and he couldn't fight to defend himself. Also, the council members didn't represent a treat for a pureblood like shizuka.
Taking someone she loves away from her, he could predict - based on her family record - that she would go mad, and she would focus her attention on someone else.

Shoujo-Zo18 wrote:

He said " To remove Shizuka-san's grudge..." Could it be that he meant her grudge against the council? Maybe he spoke with her and said to forgive the council and he would let her out....?

Kaname had no reason to ask shizuka to forgive the council. Neither she, since the council deprieved her of love and happiness.
How I did say above, I think Kaname wanted her to kill rido and the council.

However, there's still the scene where Kaname was younger and he saw the Kiryuu twins...and Ichijou said "And that was the beginning of his plans."

That scene shows takuma making his own conclusions. Nowhere kaname mentioned that his plan began then.

Personaly I do not think that the scene is the beggining of Kaname plan.
When Kaname saw the twins for the first time, they has around 7/8 years. When zero lost his family he had 13 years old. What kaname did in those 5/6 years since he saw the twins?

My opinion is that scene represent kaname surprise to see twins being born, since accoring to the curse this should n't have happened. I think that scene is connected with twin curse, and not kaname's plan.

Unless Kaname was the one who tampered with the hunter list,

Manga, and fanbook shows rido as the culprit - he ordered the senate to do so. Rest my case about this matter.

or convinced Rido to do it, what else could he have done at that time to manipulate the Kiryuu's...?

Is hard to believe kaname convinced rido to do something in his benefits. Can you imagince rido doing something like this

Also, when rido - in shiki's body - met with kaname, he said that the last time when he(rido) saw kaname was 10 years ago, not 4 years ago.

How kaname could have been able to make rido do something like that when they didn't see, nor talk.

I mean, it's assumed that they were involved in his plan since he saw them and got shocked and Ichijou said that was the start of his plans.... but how were they involved?

I would repeat myself: that is takuma assumption - also, I had said above my opinion about that scene.

Even if kaname was his best friend, and knew some things about his past, kaname did not say everything to takuma.
An example is kaname not saying to takuma that he's the progenitor of kuran's. This happened after kaname gave rido his blood. And takuma wans't alone with kaname inside that room, ichiru was there too. So kaname hadn't intented to keep the secret about him being the progenitor.

*nods*

@aya-chan

aya-chan wrote:I never said that kaname wasn't the one who freed shizuka. All I said is that he lied when kaname said he released her under the pretext the take revenge on kiryu's.

Manga shows that her lover was alive, and that she ran away with her lover, so kaname motive to release her is false.

The phrase "I did what I did so she could have her revenge" I think is true, but not the part "So she could have her revenge on a certain hunter couple."

My theory is that kaname released her for her to have revenge on the ones who locked her into a cage: the council and rido. I think shizuka was the first card he tried to use to eliminate Rido, since he couldn't give him the final blow.

Another theory of mine of that rido decided to mess with shizuka - to put her lover on hunters list - because he was uncomfortable with her in freedom. Shizuka was never submissive, and she could represent a danger for him - rido was in a vulnerable condition, and he couldn't fight to defend himself. Also, the council members didn't represent a treat for a pureblood like shizuka.
Taking someone she loves away from her, he could predict - based on her family record - that she would go mad, and she would focus her attention on someone else.

Shoujo-Zo18 wrote:

He said " To remove Shizuka-san's grudge..." Could it be that he meant her grudge against the council? Maybe he spoke with her and said to forgive the council and he would let her out....?

Kaname had no reason to ask shizuka to forgive the council. Neither she, since the council deprieved her of love and happiness.
How I did say above, I think Kaname wanted her to kill rido and the council.

However, there's still the scene where Kaname was younger and he saw the Kiryuu twins...and Ichijou said "And that was the beginning of his plans."

That scene shows takuma making his own conclusions. Nowhere kaname mentioned that his plan began then.

Personaly I do not think that the scene is the beggining of Kaname plan.
When Kaname saw the twins for the first time, they has around 7/8 years. When zero lost his family he had 13 years old. What kaname did in those 5/6 years since he saw the twins?

My opinion is that scene represent kaname surprise to see twins being born, since accoring to the curse this should n't have happened. I think that scene is connected with twin curse, and not kaname's plan.

Unless Kaname was the one who tampered with the hunter list,

Manga, and fanbook shows rido as the culprit - he ordered the senate to do so. Rest my case about this matter.

or convinced Rido to do it, what else could he have done at that time to manipulate the Kiryuu's...?

Is hard to believe kaname convinced rido to do something in his benefits. Can you imagince rido doing something like this

Also, when rido - in shiki's body - met with kaname, he said that the last time when he(rido) saw kaname was 10 years ago, not 4 years ago.

How kaname could have been able to make rido do something like that when they didn't see, nor talk.

I mean, it's assumed that they were involved in his plan since he saw them and got shocked and Ichijou said that was the start of his plans.... but how were they involved?

I would repeat myself: that is takuma assumption - also, I had said above my opinion about that scene.

Even if kaname was his best friend, and knew some things about his past, kaname did not say everything to takuma.
An example is kaname not saying to takuma that he's the progenitor of kuran's. This happened after kaname gave rido his blood. And takuma wans't alone with kaname inside that room, ichiru was there too. So kaname hadn't intented to keep the secret about him being the progenitor.

I know that it said Rido was the one who tampered with the list... I was just thinking up things trying to figure out what Kaname could have done. Tryin to think outside the box a little bit, ya know? And I do think that Ichijou having said that it was the start of Kaname's plans shows some signifigance....Hino wouldn't just throw that little detail out there for no reason. Maybe he didn't actually DO anything, but he may have started thinking about what he wanted to do.... for example, maybe at that time, he thought since the twins were close with Kaien ( who was aquainted with Kaname, though for how long I'm not sure) that someday, he might come to rely on one or both of them to protect Yuuki? But that's probably not it, since Yuuki wasn't in danger at that time, I think... Maybe he started thinking that "in the future" he could use them to his advantage to take out purebloods. Speaking of which, someone told me that Kaname can foresee the future....the proof being that he saw Yuuki when she was looking at his memories. I don't understand that, I thought that wasn't even real because she was only seeing his memories through his eyes, and her being there just tampered with it, not actually changed it.

Well, generally speaking the idea of Kaname "aiding Rido" or the reverse is a quite contradictory one. Rido was the one that needed to destroy Kaname in order to become the "king" and also was the source of Kaname's tragedy; familly killed and Yuuki taken away and changed.

Also Kaname must be having in mind that Rido would return, he knew that his blow to Rido would only postpone him.

By releasing Shizuka (who was considered to be Rido's fiancee, and here I can not stop wondering if the council used her pure blood in order to aid in Rido's resurrection because as we saw they fed him blood and what better blood than Shizuka's, if she was around?) I think that Kaname wanted

a. to aid her in living a normal life, since she was caged since birth
b. postpone the council's and Rido's plans by taking from them Shizuka and put obstacles on their way...

But that's probably not it, since Yuuki wasn't in danger at that time, I think...

Not at that time but I think that Kaname had in mind well that Rido and the council would not sit back and rest forever; it seems that the council was waiting for Rido to fully get his powers back so that they could release him against any pacifist ideas and people that would support that; Kaien, the NC, Kaname, Yuuki, as we saw this happening...

So Kaname needed a plan in order to lift something important from him; Rido's dominance, because even though Kaname was capable of stopping Rido, he was not capable to kill him; so if Rido decided to attack back again, that would only mean that Kaname would not be able to stop him for good, the result would only be a repetition.

Therefore Kaname patiently waited to find a resolution to his problem; his problem again I repeat was not to kill purebloods because Kaname can use anti-vampire weapons, his problem was that he had lost that ability against Rido (exactly what had happened at their first confrontation where Kaname could only blow him).

for example, maybe at that time, he thought since the twins were close with Kaien ( who was aquainted with Kaname, though for how long I'm not sure) that someday, he might come to rely on one or both of them to protect Yuuki?

According to what the manga shows Kaname needed a plan to lift break Rido's control over him; from there on he would be perfectly capable of protecting Yuuki himself without aiding anyone...

What I try to say with the above is that Kaname's plan was focused not on protection (Kaien was the main responsible for that), not in killing (he could kill other purebloods if he had wanted), but on Rido's control; he needed a way to break it > so his plan (which Takuma refers to) should be really focused on Rido who with having control over Kaname would be able to revive again and again.

So all these make the following;
1. Rido and Kaname as allies is an incompatible idea
2. The protection of Yuuki was not the primary target of Kaname's plan in relation to the Kiruys because that task was assigned to Kaien and because Kaname through his plan intended to protect Yuuki himself.
3. Kaname had to wait so that the Kiruys would be strong enough to kill a pureblood such as Rido and not risking being the other way around

And if Kaname's plan starts when hearing about the twins (as Takuma says) then it is at that time that Kaname just finds a solution how to lift Rido's control over him and the solution must be at the fact that both twins survived> and this brings up the significance of the twins in this case. How don't we know that Kaname needs them both to kill Rido at that phase?

Why to risk one of them being fatally injured or both twins killed by Shizuka?

I mean the logical assumption is that he needs them as strong as they can be in order to be certain that his plan shall be successful.

Since we know that Kaname only released Shizuka for her to be with her lover, and there was no way that Kaname and Rido can be allies at that phase and since Rido was the one that changed the list to revenge Shizuka for having a lover and the senate helped Rido or worked in Rido's benefit by providing access to the hunters list (as we saw the two presidents of the senate and the hunter's association were in collaboration), then in reality what happens with Shizuka is a threat to Kaname's plans.

Because both twins could have been killed at that phase...or one of them, or as we saw Shizuka changes Zero into a vampire and Zero has few chances of survival...

Is it a coincidence that after the attack Zero is appointed to a legendary vampire hunter such as Kaien and in reality enjoys the same protection as Yuuki? Or is it a necessity? because Shizuka is still out there and alive?

Is a coincidence that after attacking the Kiruy's and killing two vampires hunters, the vampire hunters do not put Shizuka in their extermination list?

Is it a coincidence that Kaien offers to Zero the Bloody Rose (an also legendary weapon as we saw?)

For me i think that its an easy solution to say that Kaname wanted Shizuka to attack the Kiryu's, (which with all the implications that are involved Kaname's plan is at a high risk).

So I think that we must also seek other hypothesis and explanations> since Kaname's plan at the first stage is to free himself from Rido, which was the notion that Kaname realized once he heard of the existence of twins?

If Zero had already devoured his brother at the womb would the realization still be the same?

I don't know if I'd call Yuuki childish; personally I think that's going a tad bit far. I think she's naive in the sense that she wants to make Kaname happy no matter what and sometimes makes a silly move here or there in the process. Of course, out of personal preference, I believe she is more suited for Zero. As stated before, Kaname is too mature for her and I think he has agendas that he doesn't tell Yuuki because he thinks she can't handle them (which immediately produces a trust issue right THERE) and might want to help, but that's just what I think. I could be totally wrong I don't doubt there's love between the two, I just wonder what KIND of love. I've always felt that Zero and Yuuki shared things on a more personal level more than she did with Kaname, but that's just how I interpreted the manga when I read it.

All we can really do is hope it turns out the way each of us want it to in the end

aya-chan wrote:I never said that kaname wasn't the one who freed shizuka. All I said is that he lied when kaname said he released her under the pretext the take revenge on kiryu's.

Manga shows that her lover was alive, and that she ran away with her lover, so kaname motive to release her is false.

The phrase "I did what I did so she could have her revenge" I think is true, but not the part "So she could have her revenge on a certain hunter couple."

My theory is that kaname released her for her to have revenge on the ones who locked her into a cage: the council and rido. I think shizuka was the first card he tried to use to eliminate Rido, since he couldn't give him the final blow.

Another theory of mine of that rido decided to mess with shizuka - to put her lover on hunters list - because he was uncomfortable with her in freedom. Shizuka was never submissive, and she could represent a danger for him - rido was in a vulnerable condition, and he couldn't fight to defend himself. Also, the council members didn't represent a treat for a pureblood like shizuka.
Taking someone she loves away from her, he could predict - based on her family record - that she would go mad, and she would focus her attention on someone else.

Shoujo-Zo18 wrote:

He said " To remove Shizuka-san's grudge..." Could it be that he meant her grudge against the council? Maybe he spoke with her and said to forgive the council and he would let her out....?

Kaname had no reason to ask shizuka to forgive the council. Neither she, since the council deprieved her of love and happiness.
How I did say above, I think Kaname wanted her to kill rido and the council.

However, there's still the scene where Kaname was younger and he saw the Kiryuu twins...and Ichijou said "And that was the beginning of his plans."

That scene shows takuma making his own conclusions. Nowhere kaname mentioned that his plan began then.

Personaly I do not think that the scene is the beggining of Kaname plan.
When Kaname saw the twins for the first time, they has around 7/8 years. When zero lost his family he had 13 years old. What kaname did in those 5/6 years since he saw the twins?

My opinion is that scene represent kaname surprise to see twins being born, since accoring to the curse this should n't have happened. I think that scene is connected with twin curse, and not kaname's plan.

Unless Kaname was the one who tampered with the hunter list,

Manga, and fanbook shows rido as the culprit - he ordered the senate to do so. Rest my case about this matter.

or convinced Rido to do it, what else could he have done at that time to manipulate the Kiryuu's...?

Is hard to believe kaname convinced rido to do something in his benefits. Can you imagince rido doing something like this

Also, when rido - in shiki's body - met with kaname, he said that the last time when he(rido) saw kaname was 10 years ago, not 4 years ago.

How kaname could have been able to make rido do something like that when they didn't see, nor talk.

I mean, it's assumed that they were involved in his plan since he saw them and got shocked and Ichijou said that was the start of his plans.... but how were they involved?

I would repeat myself: that is takuma assumption - also, I had said above my opinion about that scene.

Even if kaname was his best friend, and knew some things about his past, kaname did not say everything to takuma.
An example is kaname not saying to takuma that he's the progenitor of kuran's. This happened after kaname gave rido his blood. And takuma wans't alone with kaname inside that room, ichiru was there too. So kaname hadn't intented to keep the secret about him being the progenitor.

I'm completely speechless, aya-chan... This is by far one of the best comments I've ever read. I seriously doubt that Kaname is the antagonist like Rido and Sara... but your statement shows undeniable proof that he isn't at all. I hope Kaname listens to Takuma's reason and accept his confidante's advice instead of raising hell like Sara. Kaname deserves his happy ending above all others.

juliet wrote:So Kaname needed a plan in order to lift something important from him; Rido's dominance, because even though Kaname was capable of stopping Rido, he was not capable to kill him; so if Rido decided to attack back again, that would only mean that Kaname would not be able to stop him for good, the result would only be a repetition.

Because I don't know how to use the multi-quote thing, I just edited your post down to this one paragraph because it's the one point I want to adress, and it was repeated many times ^^; It's true that Kaname needed a plan to get rid of Rido, and we already know that he planned on using Zero to protect Yuuki and to kill Rido while they were at Cross Academy. However this brings about a realization.... his plans went back farther than just at Cross Academy. The moment he saw Zero and Ichiru, he probably didn't know that Ichiru would be out of the question later on...but had in mind using the both of them to kill Rido. There's a very plausible theory

Your right, and overall I feel as though it is wrong for Kaname to just use zero like this and now he is coming back and saying things that are obviously tearing Zero apart. I have no clue what Kaname's intentions are but things are starting to get weird.

I agree PurusBloodLamia Kaname is wanting to use Zero for far more...I wonder if Kanames was waiting for death in that coffin, and wants Zero to kill him or something....

That would be nice.. *cough* *cough* But yes, I am waiting to see what he will do, I am really excited right now. The complications between each character is really making the story interesting!

Aquasixio wrote:I don't know if I'd call Yuuki childish; personally I think that's going a tad bit far. I think she's naive in the sense that she wants to make Kaname happy no matter what and sometimes makes a silly move here or there in the process. Of course, out of personal preference, I believe she is more suited for Zero. As stated before, Kaname is too mature for her and I think he has agendas that he doesn't tell Yuuki because he thinks she can't handle them (which immediately produces a trust issue right THERE) and might want to help, but that's just what I think. I could be totally wrong I don't doubt there's love between the two, I just wonder what KIND of love. I've always felt that Zero and Yuuki shared things on a more personal level more than she did with Kaname, but that's just how I interpreted the manga when I read it.

All we can really do is hope it turns out the way each of us want it to in the end

I want to comment only for the bolded part:

The same naive yuuki feeded zero countless time in her attempt to stop him falling to level E. How come her naivity is good when is about zero, but not when is involved kaname?

yuuki is in love with kaname, and is normal to make the person you love happy. Period!

PurusBloodLamia wrote:Your right, and overall I feel as though it is wrong for Kaname to just use zero like this and now he is coming back and saying things that are obviously tearing Zero apart. I have no clue what Kaname's intentions are but things are starting to get weird.

Well yes, initially it is wrong to "use" anybody... But Zero eventually had a reason to make Rido his enemy as well, as we saw in the chapters where they fought... what was it 54 or around there....Zero went as far as to tell yuuki not to steal his prey.... he was set on hunting him...I don't think he'd be that devoted just for the sake of Kaname...that'd be kind of creepy o.O Zero had a reason to hate and hunt Rido for several reasons, 1. He gave Ichiru the fatal wound that led to his death 2. He was the biggest danger to Yuuki, whom he cares for deeply, 3. He was a danger to all the students at Cross Academy ( It is Zero's duty as a prefect to protect the humans, plus it's in his morals) which leads us to... 4. Zero...hates...purebloods. This being an actual evil pureblood who he has reason to kill without regret, of course he wouldn't pass that chance up.

The part about Kaname coming back and saying things that are tearing Zero apart... yea, you've got a point, what are his reasons behind intentionally aggravating Zero? Since the part about releasing Shizuka to take revenge on the Kiryuu's is a lie ( since shizuka's lover wasn't killed until after she was already released from prison) then it was obviously meant to rile zero up more since Kaname could see his angry state. One could say he maybe wanted to drive Yuuki and Zero closer again because he's trying to drive Yuuki away to protect her...that's the theory going around. But I say maybe he is trying to drive them together....but only because he knows he could die or plans on sacrificing himself, and doesn't want Yuuki left without someone to protect her. This could be his motives...

i wamt kaname

Shoujo-Zo18 wrote:

PurusBloodLamia wrote:Your right, and overall I feel as though it is wrong for Kaname to just use zero like this and now he is coming back and saying things that are obviously tearing Zero apart. I have no clue what Kaname's intentions are but things are starting to get weird.

Well yes, initially it is wrong to "use" anybody... But Zero eventually had a reason to make Rido his enemy as well, as we saw in the chapters where they fought... what was it 54 or around there....Zero went as far as to tell yuuki not to steal his prey.... he was set on hunting him...I don't think he'd be that devoted just for the sake of Kaname...that'd be kind of creepy o.O Zero had a reason to hate and hunt Rido for several reasons, 1. He gave Ichiru the fatal wound that led to his death 2. He was the biggest danger to Yuuki, whom he cares for deeply, 3. He was a danger to all the students at Cross Academy ( It is Zero's duty as a prefect to protect the humans, plus it's in his morals) which leads us to... 4. Zero...hates...purebloods. This being an actual evil pureblood who he has reason to kill without regret, of course he wouldn't pass that chance up.

The part about Kaname coming back and saying things that are tearing Zero apart... yea, you've got a point, what are his reasons behind intentionally aggravating Zero? Since the part about releasing Shizuka to take revenge on the Kiryuu's is a lie ( since shizuka's lover wasn't killed until after she was already released from prison) then it was obviously meant to rile zero up more since Kaname could see his angry state. One could say he maybe wanted to drive Yuuki and Zero closer again because he's trying to drive Yuuki away to protect her...that's the theory going around. But I say maybe he is trying to drive them together....but only because he knows he could die or plans on sacrificing himself, and doesn't want Yuuki left without someone to protect her. This could be his motives...

Yeah, like i have said in many other posts, Kaname always has a reason behind every move he makes. Now it may not be a move that we like, but from what we have seen Kaname is pretty smart and is really good when it comes to decision making.

Kaname. i love Zero and i can't believe i said that... but i think Zero would be better off without her. He's lost alot im not sure if he can take anymore

Even though Kaname has suffered longer, Zero suffered MORE by losing more...He lost his Mother and Father, his brother Ichiru (having to feel the loss of thinking he was dead) Seeing Ichiru again and then having to DEVOUR his own brother...He didn't have a choice...IMAGINE DOING THAT...

And the on top of all that, becoming a vampire, losing your sanity, SLOWLY falling to Level E...Suffering both physical and emotional pain PLUS Yuki's love for Kaname and then suffering AGAIN as Yuki leaves him....

And he thought that no matter what, Yuki would choose Kaname...Zero loved Yuki but never said so because he was afraid of being rejected and hurt again...

Zero discovered the one he loved was a Pureblood...And Kaname being mean to Zero.....The dude has been through enough....Don't you think he needs the one he loves to make his life whole?

SassyKnight wrote:Even though Kaname has suffered longer, Zero suffered MORE by losing more

Sorry if this reply sounds harsh, but its one of my red zones. This isn't directed at you sassy, as i have seen others make this point before and am addressing the issue as a whole.

Seriously how can any of us compare two peoples suffering? Only if we have been through what both of them have been through, could we possibly compare, and even then its hard. Pain is pain. Doesnt matter if its a little thing or a huge thing it hurts like hell. Pain is individual to each person, we get effect different ways. We all deal with pain differently, perosnally to me those who think they can compare pain i feel understand it little. Who are we to judge what someone went through was more painful then another? Thats being ignorant of the others pain and what they have been through. Both guys have been through alot. Both have been through alot of pain. Both have lost so much! BOTH!

Don't you think he needs the one he loves to make his life whole?

And this question could be used for any one of the boys. But being with someone should be about love, not on who has been through the most pain cos that just implies pity in the end. Yuuki will be with the one she loves the most, otherwise i'll be more then disappointed in her but the whole story. To me both guys deserve happiness and being with the girl they love, but at the end of the day she can only be with one or none. It's sad and heartbreaking for the guy who is not with her at the end, but thats how the story is.

SassyKnight wrote:
Even though Kaname has suffered longer, Zero suffered MORE by losing more

Here I have to agree with Bloodredhead .

As Bloodredhead said ; many Zekis use this as a reason to justify a Zeki ending the following : " Zero had suffered the most . He deserved Yuuki more than Kaname . " This is fine as opinion . But has no real basis if the plot is analyzed as a whole .

Both guys have suffered a lot . As you said , Zero lost a ton of people in his life .

But Kaname had suffered his share too . He was completely alone for an unknown time after he was born as pureblood vampire 10,000 years ago . Even when he lived with humans as a town's lord for apparently 3 human generations . He was never trully accepted by his vassals as one of their own . He even was thrown outside as having the plague after helping those same humans so much . When at last he found another person to consider loving as his mate . She sacrificed herself to create the vampire hunters / anti - vampire weapons . So he became alone again . There is this long period of time we don't know practically nothing ( the time he was Vampire King ) . But maybe the humans he wanted to protect never could be his true friends . Nor most of vampire society accepted him as friend either . So he could be very lonely seated in a high throne . Maybe only having at his side the woman that became the original Vampire Queen . Anyway , Kaname did had some event in the past that made him dispair so much he decided to slumber forever .

When he reawaken in the present . The first thing he had to notice is he was responsable for his baby descendant / great - grandson death . ( He didn't kill the baby ; but ate it . Grim enough . ) He discovered Rido ruining his plans to keep forever slumbering . He had to fear he would ate all the remain family that were around him if he allowed himself to keep his growth body . So he decided to return to a baby body without memories . When that happened ; he was happy for a while . He was a pampered baby pureblood baby / kid . Loved by his foster parents as their own . Got a cute baby sister who he loved so much . But he recovered his memories . Then he lost again a ton . In a night , he lost the "parents " he loved . Had to discover he could not kill the man he wanted to . That his cute " sister " became an human and forgot everything about him . Even than a vampire was almost tried to kill her and that could be his fault because he left her for some minutes . That he had to watch that girl from afar . Not telling her about their past together for a 10 year period . Nor expressing his love for her . Deprived from the blood he wanted . Only used blood tablets for most of the next 10 years . Except of 2 times the story told . The Ruka incident and the human offered as sacrifice for him to turn vampire . Knowing he promise to return Yuuki to human when her spell started to fade . So he had not much hope for Yuuki to be with him in the future . Kaname became a Vampire Senate Ward . Under the care of Asato . Not having friends nor confidents , except for Takuma for a long time . Having to hide his feelings from the rest of Vampire Society as expected from a pureblood vampire .

Kaname reasosn to suffer probably are more than the ones exposed here . . But at least for the things I had mentioned . They made Kaname suffering at least similar to Zero proportionally . I found a little unfair to say Zero deserves Yuuki because he had suffer the most . When both guys have suffer a lot .

mariangie wrote:

SassyKnight wrote:
Even though Kaname has suffered longer, Zero suffered MORE by losing more

Here I have to agree with Bloodredhead .

As Bloodredhead said ; many Zekis use this as a reason to justify a Zeki ending the following : " Zero had suffered the most . He deserved Yuuki more than Kaname . " This is fine as opinion . But has no real basis if the plot is analyzed as a whole .

Both guys have suffered a lot . As you said , Zero lost a ton of people in his life .

But Kaname had suffered his share too .

hehe...I've seen Yume fans make this argument too. But I agree...nobody gives their love based on who of the two needs it more (or they shouldn't, lol)...its just simply, who do you love more.

Giving because a person needs it....is charity/pity...and not love.

@mariangie: Thanks and yes Kaname's been through alot too! And your right its unfair to say that when both have been through alot.

@caela: Exactly! It should be about love!

Note: Just to clarify i wasn't making my post at all zeki's i was speaking in general, as i know its been said other times, but can't remeber where or by whom.

Just read chapter 80.... Aha! I knew it... x3 Zero is only siding with Sara because they share a common enemy... Kaname. This was obvious from the start but Sara and Zero confirmed it with words ^^ I'm still on Zero's side... and I hope they do stop Kaname ( though for Zero he wants revenge >:3 ) ; Sara, Zero, & Yuuki. ( With Ichijou, Shiki, & Sara's harem on their side too perhaps? I think we have the makings for a real battle between teams x3) I wonder who would be on Kaname's side.... Ruka, Akatsuki & Seiren?

Ooooh Whats this I sense? An epic battle between two sides????

Black: Kaname, Akatski, Ruka, Seiren.

White: Yuki, Zero, Sara, Shiki, Rima, Aidou, perhaps Takuma?

Of course, Black will be outnumbered, but Kaname is strong...

SassyKnight wrote:Ooooh Whats this I sense? An epic battle between two sides????

Black: Kaname, Akatski, Ruka, Seiren.

White: Yuki, Zero, Sara, Shiki, Rima, Aidou, perhaps Takuma?

Of course, Black will be outnumbered, but Kaname is strong...

Haha yes, they are out-numbered...but maybe Akatsuki catches everyone on fire...that pyromaniac ( he keeps putting up firewalls to avoid Aidou x3) Or... Kaname could simply turn everyone to dust like he did the senate...but that would be no fun... >.> Then again he was actually controlling them to kill themselves... ( when he said once that he didn't like controlling others...contradictory o.O) and Sara & Yuuki are purebloods so it wouldn't work on them anyways... Hey don't forget Sara's Harem...they're on her side too lol

Shoujo-Zo18 wrote:

SassyKnight wrote:Ooooh Whats this I sense? An epic battle between two sides????

Black: Kaname, Akatski, Ruka, Seiren.

White: Yuki, Zero, Sara, Shiki, Rima, Aidou, perhaps Takuma?

Of course, Black will be outnumbered, but Kaname is strong...

Haha yes, they are out-numbered...but maybe Akatsuki catches everyone on fire...that pyromaniac ( he keeps putting up firewalls to avoid Aidou x3) Or... Kaname could simply turn everyone to dust like he did the senate...but that would be no fun... >.> Then again he was actually controlling them to kill themselves... ( when he said once that he didn't like controlling others...contradictory o.O) and Sara & Yuuki are purebloods so it wouldn't work on them anyways... Hey don't forget Sara's Harem...they're on her side too lol

out-numbered maybe but we know from history that the size of the armed forces isn´t always decisive!
Well we have on the
black side one pureblood: Kaname
and on the white side: Yuuki and Sara...Sara maybe strong but she isn´t as old and experienced as Kaname...Yuuki has Artemis but she said herself that she is like a todder in her vampire life, she became stronger we could see that when she got those wings but I don´t think that she would be a match for Kaname (maybe is she undresses he will fall for her *sorry pervy mind*)

Furthermore who is the leader of the white side, Sara? I don´t think that there won´t be any rivalry! I mean Zero supports Yuuki now but do you see him following Sara´s movements and orders? And don´t you think that Yuuki´s feelings might be in the way...I think that she doesn´t want anyone to be hurt and that she would try to protect them (why does it remind me of Elena from VD?^^) I don´t think that she would want Zero to be in a dangerous situation...and I can´t believe that she will be able to kill Kaname herself...you can´t change your feelings so fast...

Now to Shiki and Rima...they are strong and hot, no doubt about that, but I don´t see them fighting for Sara, they´ll try to protect Takuma and they won´t fight...(but it would be interesting to see Kaname vs Shiki (family fight^^))

Aidou: has to fight against his cousin Akatsuki, Aidou may have the ice-ability but he is not cold-hearted, he cares for others and I think that he cares for his cousin too (Akatsuki is a little bit colder in my eyes but I don´t think that he will try to hurt Aidou, I mean he run away from a fight with him) so undecided here

Sara´s harem: Sorry i don´t see them fighting, they will only scream and positionate themselves in front of Sara...they could die easily

Takuma and Ruka...Takuma is on Sara´s side we know that now, if Kaname wants to kill Sara he has to kill Takuma at first (at Takuma knows alot about him...unfortunately he won´t stay a chance against kaname...Ruka on Kaname´s side, will she stay there or will she distance herself from the scene? I don´t really know

Seiren: We don´t have a lot of information about her but I think that she has a lot of abilities when she is fighting next to Kaname...

my result: I think it is undecided (but there are some factors who aren´t in my argumentation yet: f.e. kaname´s hand, the scene of action, Seiren´s ability and Zero´s feelings for Yuuki) maybe someone can think about that and coment my post

YuMe+ZeKi<3 wrote:Ooooh Whats this I sense? An epic battle between two sides????

Black: Kaname, Akatski, Ruka, Seiren.

White: Yuki, Zero, Sara, Shiki, Rima, Aidou, perhaps Takuma?

Of course, Black will be outnumbered, but Kaname is strong...

Well...
1-Kaname would not kill Yuuki,even if she's on the white side of the chess board.
2-I think Zero only sided with Sara to obey Yuuki and Kill Kaname.
3-Akatsuki would attack Aidou and obey Kaname only to stay with Ruka.
4-And Ruka loves Kaname so she doesn't plan to side with Sara
5-Takuma love's Sara so he would probally attack Kaname!
What end could we get from this?
I only pray that Kaname lives forever with Yuuki!
They love each other(even now Yuuki thinks more about Kaname than Zero...anyway..Hino would be a devil if she killed Kaname right?)