Zeki or Yume?

First topic message reminder :

If you like Zero or Kaname then I guess you are either Zeki or Yume. Which one do you prefer to see and why?

Shoujo-Zo18 wrote:
Shoujo-zo18 - Please do, since it caught your interest so much as to use so many quotes from me. ^^

I sense a note of sarcasm here...

Shoujo-zo18 - If she NEVER wished for his blood, then obviously she changed her mind xD Not only did she accept Zero's offer.... but she refused the wrist that was offered to her... and LUNGED for his neck!!

First of all she was coerced to accept his blood. Didn't zero said he would destroy her school game? Also, she was hungry and worried she won't be able to do her job as kuran.
Yuuki going to his neck instead of his wrist, it stays in her instincts as vampires. Vampires drink blood from the neck - the blood flows better there

I couldn't find the scene but she may be refering to the fact that even though her thirst will be partially quenched by kaname... it can't be completely quenched "because even now, there's one chunk of my heart that's still attached to a link that I can't cut...one chunk of it is still attached to zero." A direct quote from yuuki. If you want proof, here. http://www.mangareader.net/104-2179-30/vampire-knight/chapter-51.html
But the fact that Yuuki's thirst won't be thoroughly quenched by Kaname... she can't forget it, so the thought of the act of drinking of Kaname will remind her of that...

Saw the link but I cannot see the connection between the panel you gave me, and the quote I quoted.

SassyKnight wrote:
For Yuki to think about Zero when being bitten by Kaname just proves how strong their relationship really is.

In that scene I don't see Yuuki being bitten by Kaname at all. Guess your eyes see something else.

Ok, so I worded it wrong...excuse me. But I got the Idea from Kaname himself... " A vampire's thirst can only be quenched by the blood of their loved one." http://www.mangareader.net/104-2179-29/vampire-knight/chapter-51.html So yes, drinking blood, or more specifically satisfying the thirst, has to do with love. Or do you deny the knowledge of your all-mighty Kaname? As for your Level E reference... I said vampires biting each other...not humans. And Kaname obviously knows his thirst won't be fully quenched by Ruka because the one who's blood he wanted was Yuuki's. But it "partially" quenched it... he only drank her blood to get rid of the urge to drink from Yuuki. But vampires need blood to survive... otherwise the Blood Tablets wouldn't have been invented as an alternative. So he quenched his vampiric urge for blood... but he can only be fully satisfied by Yuuki's blood. I didn't say it applies to all situations did I? I didn't say any time ever that a vampire bites a vampire it's a sign of love... I only said " vampires biting each other is a sign of love" going by the logic that their thirst can be quenched by the one they love... Kaname's logic, not mine. You're the one who applied it to every situation possible.

We can exclude my example with the level E vampire, but my other three examples stands on.

First of all you said vampires biting each other is a sign of love", you did not say vampires in love biting each other is a sign of love.
since you said "Vampires" not adding limits to your statements, hence you generalized your statement - in short you said that all vampires who are biting each other is a sign of love.

In the future do not generalize your statements!

Also, kaname said "A vampire thirst" - to me it sounds like he generalized the statement - it applies to all vampires.

If he truely cared for her human side then he could have done this earlier on...

Kaname did care for her human side so much that he wanted to turn her into a human again if the situation require it.

but he actually waited this long, until he knew that danger was close at hand and she would soon have to turn back into a vampire.

The one who made the first step in breaking the spell was yuuki, not kaname. what kaname did was to easy her awakening. if he wouldn't have done that she would have been driven mad.

correct me if i'm wrong but they went to the same school right....? All that time...? Kaname was depriving HIMSELF of Yuuki...she was within reach the whole time; the fact that he says he went without her for ten years...means he does not accept her "human side" as the real Yuuki.

You don't want to know my first thought when I read 'that'.

Please do not compare kaname with zero. The one not accepting yuuki's other nature was zero - evidence showed by manga.

Kaname accept yuuki the way she is: human or vampire; a part of her heart still tied to zero or not; kaname loves the yuuki with a kind heart. for kaname yuuki is his only one, human or not.

He said "I love you more than anyone else in the entire world" to the human yuuki. if he wouldn't have accepted human yuuki he could have wait to say those words to the vampire yuuki - but he said them to the human yuuki.

You didn't even acknowledge that i said Kaname treated her as a possession to be protected and won over. The prize he fought for and deserved because it was his right of lineage. I say this because he mentions at one point that their father and mother ( not really his parents though...) were married, and they should be too because it is pureblood tradition.

A man being possesive with the woman he loves is normal - you would find this in all shoujo manga.
However, for kaname yuuki is not a trophy he won at poker game.
First of all kaname doesn't force yuuki in doing things - he don't have the intention of forcing her to marry him.

Chapter 36, volume 8: Kaname to Aidou and Akatsuki

She is the child who was born to become my wife. If Yuuki still wishes so...

Now, if she thinks Kaname has a problem...why doesn't she confront him about it and be as forceful and willing to help as she is with Zero?

Currently she doesn't have the time to go after kaname.

>>>she has a troublesome vampire in cross academy's grounds - sara. yuuki had a lot of troubles dealing with the chaos sara caused.

>>>when yuuki repeated her wish to go after kaname to stop him she was stopped by someone else. Recently when she said she would deal with sara and then she would go after kaname, yuuki was stopped by ZERO.

@Nina: totally agree with your post

juliet wrote:

cuz I can’t find any meaning to compare a CANON pair like Yume with a FANON supposedly pair like Zeki.

How someone can compare something real and with substance with something nonexistent?

this is true because Yuuki and Zero were never a couple, so how fans do know how they would be as a couple and they compare that with a true relationship? THey can't is wishful thinking on their part that Zeki as a relationship could work but its exactly the same thing like us saying that Zeki would not work.

A true comparison could be made only to the stage where Kaname and Yuuki were still a potential couple to be...

-still they earn to the points : more passion and open love declarations, obvious showing love interest for each other, tense, agony and mystery...

Zeki and Yuuki as a potential couple: they lack all the above features...that's why their relationship does not seem to drive to something higher than friendship.

No one ever said that Zeki is an official couple, are you saying we aren't allowed to support the pairing? That it shouldn't exist? There are numerous reasons to enjoy it, our views are grounded and have inspiration... There are reasons to consider the possibility of them becoming a pair, and believing they look good together. We didn't just come up with it out of thin air, now...an unbelieveable fan-pairing that wouldn't be as widely supported might be Yuuki and Aidou, or Kaname and Zero, anyone other than the main trio. All the main issues resolve around Kaname, Yuuki, and Zero, and Yuuki has close ties with both... This was obviously bound to create a love triangle. Hino wrote it that way on purpose... It's part of the reason the series is so popular if you can't tell - all the drama between the relationship of yuuki, kaname and zero.

"-still they earn to the points : more passion and open love declarations, obvious showing love interest for each other, tense, agony and mystery..."

- You don't call a kiss an open love declaration? Then I wonder what could be considered as one to you o.O Just because Yuuki didn't reciprocate the feelings at that time doesn't make it any less significant. It was proof that Zero loved her and wanted her to atleast know before she left him forever... which he truely thought would happen. " I believed somewhere in my heart that you would walk alongside Yuuki..." Meaning he had given up. No reason to believe that Yuuki would care about him at all after leaving him. But he is not aware of how she cried for him afterwards... saying "I don't want to be your enemy." he is not aware of her telling kaname " A part of my heart still belongs to zero..." and he's not aware that her thirst can't be fully quenched because of this. Zero had no intention of stealing her away...he gave up honorably and he gets criticized for it.

- Showing of love interest.... well Zero has wanted to kiss her once before but chickened out. Then later on, he did actually kiss her. We don't know Yuuki's feelings but she obviously cares enough about him to cry for him after learning about his tragic past from Kaname. ( even though it's not 100% true, Yuuki believed it, and she felt so emotionally distressed for Zero. She stopped him from attacking kaname because she didn't want him to go out of control and get hurt...) So we know she cares for him still, but no one can say for sure that they KNOW for a 100% fact that she isn't starting to fall for him as more than friends. You can't read Yuuki's mind can you? When you go without something for a long time, it only makes you want it more.... Yuuki might be missing Zero so much that she is starting to realize she's falling in love with him. You don't know and I don't know.

- Agony and mystery....? Wasn't that what the whole first arc was about? Zero was running away from Yuuki and acting strange....Yuuki found out it was because he was a vampire. (mystery solved) Yuuki got upset because she emotionally hurt zero by what she had said... "It was like a beast in human form...." Which is exactly what he felt like. Yuuki made Zero stay when he wanted to run away....she promised to be his ally. That was a very agonized/dramatic scene. Also Yuuki saying she will save Zero by letting him drink her blood. And then Yuuki was getting upset over the "mystery" of her past...Zero went with her to help her find things out. He even came to ask her if she was still worried about it later that night... The only difference between Yume & Zeki is that Zeki went through the agony & mystery together And Kaname is not going to help Yuuki solve the mystery this time because HE is the one creating it...

nina wrote:I won’t go in details answering on the same old and worn out issues over and over again first of all cuz many of these supposedly issues have been answered from the manga itself so it is pointless and second cuz I can’t find any meaning to compare a CANON pair like Yume with a FANON supposedly pair like Zeki.

How someone can compare something real and with substance with something nonexistent?

And since the manga itself it is apparently not enough I’ll use the author’s own words about Yume and Zeki from the art book>>

1. About Zeki:





2. About Yume (NOT REQUESTED):








I think my words are needless

Note though that the latest depiction with which Hino sensei WANTED to show that Kaname and Yuuki BELONG together was included AGAIN in the last volume 15 i.e. in a volume where Yume is physically separated … so I guess it is still valid. *cough*

But I’ll answer on this one cuz it seems like the new motto >>

Understanding In One Another

They UNDERSTAND one another so much that they can read each others thoughts...ZeKi may not be a romantic relationship, but it is a strong relationship in which both of them understand each other

I’m fine with this. Then when Yuuki said >>

1. Yuuki to Zero: “I know what you want to say … “there is no point in this game of school.” …
Our viewpoints won’t match, ALWAYS as before …”
http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/71/10
http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/71/11

>> was right and she was perfectly understanding Zero.

2. Yuuki’s thoughts: “Level end … Zero is falling to level E. He himself says that he is alright but the truth is … Or is it … “I wanted only your blood” … that’s not it … that was in the past … Zero must have detached himself from those feelings … so that’s not it.”
http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/71/14
http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/71/15

>> so according to Yuuki’s very well understanding about Zero … Zero is falling to Level END and he has no romantic feelings for her.

And bottom line … how she failed so miserably to understand Zero’s feelings for her (as many fans still believe) since they can read each others eyes??? OR she knew about his feelings and still rejected him?

***********************

@Aya-chan well said!

Truer words have never spoken, Nina. Excellent deductions on showing the official pix (according to Hino-san herself) between Zero and Yuuki (Cross) and Kaname & Yuuki (Kuran). We all know that Yuuki realizes that Zero is falling to Level END. The only cure for Zero to permanently stop the falling into the end level for good is to drink Hio's blood.

And to Aya-chan, Juliet and Blood... six (2 each) thumbs up for all of you. I'm completely speechless as of right now, except the only forbidden love that we all know is evidently Kaname AND Yuuki (when she was turned human more than a decade ago). Let's all hope that the true love conquers all when she shines the light on Kaname's darkest hour.

I suppose if it's what the author wants then no one else's opinion matters right? As if Hino is that selfish, she would be shocked right now, I'm sure She always attributes her success to the fans, without them, her stories would mean nothing... and she realizes that Zero and Kaname are her most popular characters ( even IF she prefers Kaname - She does enjoy that he bares a resmblence to another character of hers from another story...) She might like Kaname & Yuuki together but she likes Zero too...she loves all her characters. Therefore I still say its up to her how it all ends, but I don't think she'd actually root for a specific pairing all-out openly to the fans, because she too would like to see how it all ends, and won't give away any spoilers. Any good story-writer will use twists and unexpected events to capture the readers' attention, so don't be so sure it will end how you want just because she put a couple pretty comments on her artwork, that makes no sense at all. I have never once read in her sidebars in the manga OR her interviews that she favors Kaname & Yuuki. Go find me ONE excerpt by her that says that....

No one ever said that Zeki is an official couple, are you saying we aren't allowed to support the pairing? That it shouldn't exist?

No, we did not say that...please read again...

what Nina said and what i also supported...

nina:

I can’t find any meaning to compare a CANON pair like Yume with a FANON supposedly pair like Zeki.

How someone can compare something real and with substance with something nonexistent?

me:

THey can't is wishful thinking on their part that Zeki as a relationship could work but its exactly the same thing like us saying that Zeki would not work.

So no one said that fans can not support pairings to be or pairings in general but you can not judge them as a pairing realistically speaking or create arguments just as they were a canon pairing, simply because they are not.

example: saying that Zeki would be so great together whereas Yume is boring (I am just bringing a very common argument here) is an opinion but more than this where is the reality in this opinion since there is no ZEki as a pairing where you can judge how they would be inside of a relationship? we are talking about thin air there, don't we? (all that I know this part of the sentence has the same significance as me supporting the opposite).

nobody says that you can not support or state your opinion but we also state to that opinion our thoughts; that its a total hypothetical opinion, in reality zeki can not be compared to yume because Zeki and Yuuki never passed to the next stage in order for anyone to form an opinion about them as a couple. That's a fact, we don't say that to argue over it, because there is nothing about it to argue...they are not just in the same level to be compared...

now about the rest parts of your post:

You don't call a kiss an open love declaration? Then I wonder what could be considered as one to you o.O Just because Yuuki didn't reciprocate the feelings at that time doesn't make it any less significant.

Yes you are calling the first arc (how many volumes?) "that time"...when did she do it and i missed it?


When people are in love emotions flow, they need to be expressed...where is that expression? you can not just make a character choosing a person without first showing the course of feelings that led him/her there....there is not such fundamental basis in Yuuki for Zero since all of her thoughts revolve around Kaname thus her feelings belong to another man...who also aches for her and silently suffers...

so do you now see how a Yume-to-be shadows a-Zeki-to be with the gravity that the author puts on Yuuki's and kaname's mutual feelings?
Don't they earn at this point? Of course they do because the love of the two is more powerful, grounded and well-expressed than the anticipation-expectation of the one.

But he is not aware of how she cried for him afterwards... saying "I don't want to be your enemy." he is not aware of her telling kaname " A part of my heart still belongs to zero..." and he's not aware that her thirst can't be fully quenched because of this. Zero had no intention of stealing her away...he gave up honorably and he gets criticized for it.

" A part of her heart" where she missed Zero as a friend and Yuuki was not taking blood through her fangs. An ambiguous declaration hidden again behind a bunch of excuses...that deteriorates the intense of any feelings, any originality or clarity of thought, sorry that's Hino's very known method in order to throw the LT in the script just to light up sparklers that she extinguishes again some pages later...

So before Zero gets aware of these lines, make sure that he is filled with the continuation and the new updates of confessions that follow ;

"If you do devour what you desire you'll be driven insane" "But the vampire inside me does not care. This desire is so pure, it can't be hidden".

Who again gains the impressions of "love" and "intense" and "clarity?"

Because here there is no ambiguity, its a raw feeling that comes chapters later to erase and in my opinion even to eliminate any gravity that the lines that you used had.

Zero had no intention of stealing her away...he gave up honorably and he gets criticized for it.

Because even Zero recognized the intensity of these feelings and the mutual love of the couple, he was the one drinking Yuuki's blood during the first arc and he even considered himself a lost cause.

Yuuki might be missing Zero so much that she is starting to realize she's falling in love with him. You don't know and I don't know.

Yes that's a prophesy and a "wishful thinking", therefore you are actually saying what I am saying and you just turn back at making circles resulting at the conclusion that we made and you seem to disagree at the beginning but at the same time you are using it as your defense (how paradox that is!)

you can not express an opinion about the future, thus again I shall remind you that this debate started from the arguments that comparing yume to zeki is not possible since zeki is not a couple. So as you say the future only can tell...that's exactly our point; how do we know what kind of couple zeki would be? more healthy, open, vibrant? we can't know therefore we can not compare. That's why i also suggested the comparison to be made in the "coming together" stage where we see a potential Yume and potential Zeki and like i said Yume wins. Now you are throwing me an argument of the future to defend what? an already taken path with an hypothetical path? not possible.

if we go jumping from past (events) to future (assumptions) and we try to create arguments, how realistic or even fruitful discussion is that? its leading nowhere..better to find a common ground and leave statements about the future be so.

Agony and mystery....? Wasn't that what the whole first arc was about? Zero was running away from Yuuki and acting strange....Yuuki found out it was because he was a vampire. (mystery solved)

The only difference between Yume & Zeki is that Zeki went through the agony & mystery together And Kaname is not going to help Yuuki solve the mystery this time because HE is the one creating it...

A mystery that was solved in the first four chapters...as for your statement about Kaname as i remember Zero's condition had been kept as a secret for four years (Yuuki and Kaname are only one year together and Kaname's secret is not dangerous to Yuuki's life as it was living with a level-e). Neither Zero helped Yuuki to solve any mystery, it actually came out on his own since he had lost control of himself.

Furthermore Kaname is a mystery on his own...and his overall protection and interest about Yuuki had always been a mystery towards her> so again the script landed in him loving her, in her hiding her feelings of love because he was a different kind> revolving around love altogether.

And the same route it follows now since we know that Kaname has stated that the "the objective had always been the same only the path changed", when Kaien had reminded him that in the past he had wanted to sacrifice himself for Yuuki's welfare and that later on he thought they would be walking on the same path. So again the mystery and the agony is motivated by love> that's the motive used (as in the first arc) and its mutual. Again all these elements (and the above) are combined together to picture a loving couple passing hard times, and fighting each one with his own weapons.

So where does Zeki come in with such an intensity and motivation? i see their struggle to survive as friends but as a couple-to-be where are these elements? Currently I do not see them in script.

If Yume dominates and Zeki isn't even recognized as an actual couple, then what is the point of even creating this topic? To prove your point and dominate over Zekis? My opInion won't change because most of what all of you are saying is largely opinion mixed with fact. You believe strongly that only Yume can exist, and that Zeki has no grounds at all for even considering being a couple.... you don't see things the way we do, and I really don't feel like explaining it for the thousandth time because no one ever listens, they just try to disprove it and shoot it down. I will wait and see what happens. And I will be ready to laugh in your faces so hard if Zeki wins and all of your novel posts were meaningless. Having said that, I will not be commenting on anything more concerning this immature Zeki vs Yume battle until the next chapter is released and there is more to work with...I'd like to see the outcome of things, but I have never once denied any one's pairing entirely, that is just very selfish and immature.... I will say it again, as i always do.... heck i'll even make it so you can read it.

I DO NOT KNOW, OR BELIEVE 100% WITHOUT A DOUBT IN MY MIND THAT ZERO WILL END UP WITH YUUKI, NOR THAT KANAME WILL END UP WITH YUUKI. I ACKNOWLEDGE THAT BOTH ARE LEGITIMATE AND WORTH DEBATING OVER, HOWEVER I WILL NEVER DENY THAT ONE EXISTS AND HAS A CHANCE. MAY THE BEST MAN WIN, I IN PARTICULAR JUST HAPPEN TO BE ROOTING FOR ZEKI.

Shoujo-Zo18 wrote:If Yume dominates and Zeki isn't even recognized as an actual couple, then what is the point of even creating this topic? To prove your point and dominate over Zekis? My opInion won't change because most of what all of you are saying is largely opinion mixed with fact. You believe strongly that only Yume can exist, and that Zeki has no grounds at all for even considering being a couple.... you don't see things the way we do, and I really don't feel like explaining it for the thousandth time because no one ever listens, they just try to disprove it and shoot it down. I will wait and see what happens. And I will be ready to laugh in your faces so hard if Zeki wins and all of your novel posts were meaningless. Having said that, I will not be commenting on anything more concerning this immature Zeki vs Yume battle until the next chapter is released and there is more to work with...I'd like to see the outcome of things, but I have never once denied any one's pairing entirely, that is just very selfish and immature.... I will say it again, as i always do.... heck i'll even make it so you can read it.

I DO NOT KNOW, OR BELIEVE 100% WITHOUT A DOUBT IN MY MIND THAT ZERO WILL END UP WITH YUUKI, NOR THAT KANAME WILL END UP WITH YUUKI. I ACKNOWLEDGE THAT BOTH ARE LEGITIMATE AND WORTH DEBATING OVER, HOWEVER I WILL NEVER DENY THAT ONE EXISTS AND HAS A CHANCE. MAY THE BEST MAN WIN, I IN PARTICULAR JUST HAPPEN TO BE ROOTING FOR ZEKI.

Ι am sorry but what are you shouting about here? to the fact that we said that Zeki does not exist as a couple? is this so hard to accept it? if it did why they do not have a relationship? this is a reality. I am really doubting if you are reading what we post and what we mean. Say all you want and write it with even more capitals to make your point even more obvious, but first answer to what we write and not to what you think that we write. I am trying to state that as gentle and polite as it can be...

obviously your post refers to something that is not stated here...

Shoujo-Zo18 wrote: I ACKNOWLEDGE THAT BOTH ARE LEGITIMATE

Well that’s the point … some of us DO NOT acknowledge that both pairings are legitimate cuz obviously are not. The one it is an official CANON pair and the other FANON.

So starting from that point … aren’t equal. Ofc you can debate on whatever you want and support that Zeki WILL (not currently but in the future) prevail but this doesn’t mean also that we should agree with your arguments.

I guess you can see the difference between respect(your right to state your opinion) and agree(with your opinion).

Okay i think we need to calm down a little. This is only a manga remember its not life or death.

I think we should move on with discussion. We won't ever agree on the pairings that much we know as fact. We are all interpretting this differently, i dont think on this we will ever see eye to eye. So lets just agree to disagree and leave it at that until we get more in future chapters.

I have to say that I agree with Shoujo... EVERYTHING I say about ZeKi is shot down or proven wrong and SOME of you can be very rude to me...Im just saying how I feel and HOW do I get treated? LIKE CRAP!

I do not care what some of you say about ZeKi, because I swear I will keep rooting for ZeKi until the very end, and laugh my head off if ZeKi IS endgame and all your posts are worthless...Sorry Im just saying how I feel on this forum and I dont get treated well...And believe me I DONT like how I am being treated!!

I also wanna say to some of you YuMes to STOP being rude to my other mates who are ZeKis like me...PLEASE respect their views and STOP treating them like crap!!! Put yourself in our shoes and think how you would feel!! And seriously, you DONT NEED to write a novel post for EVERYTHING us ZeKi's say that isn't what you believe...RESPECT US AND WE WILL RESPECT YOU!

I think that BOTH couples have a chance...But ZeKi is what I BELIEVE IN!

I am saying how I feel...And ZeKi DOES have romance and it DOES have a chance of being endgame...END OF STORY

Sassa... I love you. That is all. ^^ <3

Yes Finally someone says something!!!!

Hehe...Thanks guys ^^

Look people, I dont know why you guys have to fight with us and quote every letter and disagree. We too are people taking pride in the ship that we recognize and I ask that you give respect. I mean its 3 Zeki fans against like 6 Yume fans on this sight and frankly I dont think the numbers are fair. In chapter 79 I believe it was Yuuki who specifically said " I have to stop Kaname " which in my opinion means he is not doing a good job keeping what I would say a Good Relationship...

I really dislike that every thing that we say is shot down immediately and the fact that we are not ranting on your opinions also adds to it. I dont think we all should be fighting but when times are ridiculous as this then it starts to get out of control.

My final answer is that Zeki will have their moments and nobody can deny that.

I do not care what some of you say about ZeKi, because I swear I will keep rooting for ZeKi until the very end, and laugh my head off if ZeKi IS endgame and all your posts are worthless...Sorry Im just saying how I feel on this forum and I dont get treated well...And believe me I DONT like how I am being treated!!

You are immediately bashing/flaming and you also ignore a moderators recommendation, you are forcing the rules on your own with your behavior or do you intend to put the blame again on us for being rude when you overview totally the moderation’s suggestions? That is a post above yours;

I think we should move on with discussion. We won't ever agree on the pairings that much we know as fact. We are all interpretting this differently, i dont think on this we will ever see eye to eye. So lets just agree to disagree and leave it at that until we get more in future chapters.

I also wanna say to some of you YuMes to STOP being rude to my other mates who are ZeKis like me...PLEASE respect their views and STOP treating them like crap!!!

Is this the way that you are suggesting that we should respect you? By disregarding posts like yours or sentences like this

And I will be ready to laugh in your faces so hard if Zeki wins and all of your novel posts were meaningless. Having said that, I will not be commenting on anything more concerning this immature Zeki vs Yume battle

This is part of the post that Shoujo-zo made in response to my post that did not contain any personal neither general bashing elements and I deliberately overviewed it (because if I had wanted I could have answered with the real RUDE tone that you seem to use) but you are not dropping the issue.

We are doing our best to ignore your bashes but facing an argument or an extended debate (and here we had not even started) you are self-exploding over a sea of emotions for fictional pairing without being able to sustain the argument state.

Put yourself in our shoes and think how you would feel!! And seriously, you DONT NEED to write a novel post for EVERYTHING us ZeKi's say that isn't what you believe...RESPECT US AND WE WILL RESPECT YOU!

After swallowing down the bashing, now the next recommendation is to shut up? I see that you tend to confuse respect with silence and bashing attitudes with opinions.

I think that BOTH couples have a chance...But ZeKi is what I BELIEVE IN! I am saying how I feel...And ZeKi DOES have romance and it DOES have a chance of being endgame...END OF STORY.

My final answer is that Zeki will have their moments and nobody can deny that.

And you are stating all of the above in order to argue over what? Do you understand what you read? If you disagree over an argument, make sure that you understand the argument, because right now you are bashing and flaming WITHOUT even touching what we said and stated. Just for the reference;

nobody says that you can not support or state your opinion but we also state to that opinion our thoughts; that its a total hypothetical opinion, in reality zeki can not be compared to yume because Zeki and Yuuki never passed to the next stage in order for anyone to form an opinion about them as a couple. That's a fact, we don't say that to argue over it, because there is nothing about it to argue...they are not just in the same level to be compared...

A true comparison could be made only to the stage where Kaname and Yuuki were still a potential couple to be...

better to find a common ground and leave statements about the future be so.

Ofc you can debate on whatever you want and support that Zeki WILL (not currently but in the future) prevail but this doesn’t mean also that we should agree with your arguments.

I am literally speechless (but not surprised) to see that are moving in circles and you are even flaming us and ignoring the moderation and the rules of the proper behavior in the forum in order to state what? what we actually stated before you at the above posts? So what’s the fuss about? To bash us for an opinion that we actually supported before you? What are you disagreeing with? With your own opinion that we supported above as well?

Perhaps a better reading could help you…in the future time, not to expose yourselves so easily or at least resulting in bashing attitudes when it really worths the trouble, right now all of this self-explosion is over nothing. But since you want this go on and feel free to burn yourself more...

I mean its 3 Zeki fans against like 6 Yume fans on this sight and frankly I dont think the numbers are fair. I really dislike that every thing that we say is shot down immediately and the fact that we are not ranting on your opinions also adds to it.

The same things that I said above, that you are ranting here (in contrast to what you write) goes for you too. You are all self-exploding like a balloon of hot air without even understanding what we said, because its obvious that you did not.
Since you are appealing to fairness, I suggest considering the fact that this is an open forum and anyone can write and support through arguments his/her points. The lack of disagreement from the Zeki’s part is not my problem to solve. I’ve been to too many forums and I never asked from the forum to solve my problems. Anymore demands about an argument that we first supported?

Haha things are still as lovely here as ever, aren't they? To answer to the topic, what I support right now is, um... bloodredhead's comment:

Okay i think we need to calm down a little. This is only a manga remember its not life or death.

I think we should move on with discussion. We won't ever agree on the pairings that much we know as fact. We are all interpretting this differently, i dont think on this we will ever see eye to eye. So lets just agree to disagree and leave it at that until we get more in future chapters.

Cosign.

juliet wrote:

I do not care what some of you say about ZeKi, because I swear I will keep rooting for ZeKi until the very end, and laugh my head off if ZeKi IS endgame and all your posts are worthless...Sorry Im just saying how I feel on this forum and I dont get treated well...And believe me I DONT like how I am being treated!!

You are immediately bashing/flaming and you also ignore a moderators recommendation, you are forcing the rules on your own with your behavior or do you intend to put the blame again on us for being rude when you overview totally the moderation’s suggestions? That is a post above yours;

I think we should move on with discussion. We won't ever agree on the pairings that much we know as fact. We are all interpretting this differently, i dont think on this we will ever see eye to eye. So lets just agree to disagree and leave it at that until we get more in future chapters.

I also wanna say to some of you YuMes to STOP being rude to my other mates who are ZeKis like me...PLEASE respect their views and STOP treating them like crap!!!

Is this the way that you are suggesting that we should respect you? By disregarding posts like yours or sentences like this

And I will be ready to laugh in your faces so hard if Zeki wins and all of your novel posts were meaningless. Having said that, I will not be commenting on anything more concerning this immature Zeki vs Yume battle

This is part of the post that Shoujo-zo made in response to my post that did not contain any personal neither general bashing elements and I deliberately overviewed it (because if I had wanted I could have answered with the real RUDE tone that you seem to use) but you are not dropping the issue.

We are doing our best to ignore your bashes but facing an argument or an extended debate (and here we had not even started) you are self-exploding over a sea of emotions for fictional pairing without being able to sustain the argument state.

Put yourself in our shoes and think how you would feel!! And seriously, you DONT NEED to write a novel post for EVERYTHING us ZeKi's say that isn't what you believe...RESPECT US AND WE WILL RESPECT YOU!

After swallowing down the bashing, now the next recommendation is to shut up? I see that you tend to confuse respect with silence and bashing attitudes with opinions.

I think that BOTH couples have a chance...But ZeKi is what I BELIEVE IN! I am saying how I feel...And ZeKi DOES have romance and it DOES have a chance of being endgame...END OF STORY.

My final answer is that Zeki will have their moments and nobody can deny that.

And you are stating all of the above in order to argue over what? Do you understand what you read? If you disagree over an argument, make sure that you understand the argument, because right now you are bashing and flaming WITHOUT even touching what we said and stated. Just for the reference;

nobody says that you can not support or state your opinion but we also state to that opinion our thoughts; that its a total hypothetical opinion, in reality zeki can not be compared to yume because Zeki and Yuuki never passed to the next stage in order for anyone to form an opinion about them as a couple. That's a fact, we don't say that to argue over it, because there is nothing about it to argue...they are not just in the same level to be compared...

A true comparison could be made only to the stage where Kaname and Yuuki were still a potential couple to be...

better to find a common ground and leave statements about the future be so.

Ofc you can debate on whatever you want and support that Zeki WILL (not currently but in the future) prevail but this doesn’t mean also that we should agree with your arguments.

I am literally speechless (but not surprised) to see that are moving in circles and you are even flaming us and ignoring the moderation and the rules of the proper behavior in the forum in order to state what? what we actually stated before you at the above posts? So what’s the fuss about? To bash us for an opinion that we actually supported before you? What are you disagreeing with? With your own opinion that we supported above as well?

Perhaps a better reading could help you…in the future time, not to expose yourselves so easily or at least resulting in bashing attitudes when it really worths the trouble, right now all of this self-explosion is over nothing. But since you want this go on and feel free to burn yourself more...

I mean its 3 Zeki fans against like 6 Yume fans on this sight and frankly I dont think the numbers are fair. I really dislike that every thing that we say is shot down immediately and the fact that we are not ranting on your opinions also adds to it.

The same things that I said above, that you are ranting here (in contrast to what you write) goes for you too. You are all self-exploding like a balloon of hot air without even understanding what we said, because its obvious that you did not.
Since you are appealing to fairness, I suggest considering the fact that this is an open forum and anyone can write and support through arguments his/her points. The lack of disagreement from the Zeki’s part is not my problem to solve. I’ve been to too many forums and I never asked from the forum to solve my problems. Anymore demands about an argument that we first supported?

You are mixing my posts with other peoples posts? And then you say that we are even ignoring our posts and being the bad guys . I have no control what other people say so I dont think you should add parts of my post and make it look like Zekis are hypocrites... I AM paying attention to your posts and I respect that your a moderator but the ships we like are the complete opposite so of course we are going to disagree with each other. Honestly there is no point in fighting because we will never come with an equal solution. I DO ask you though to not fuse my words with the words of another person and try to shoot both of us down because of it. Thats the reason why I wonder if this is fair because the other Zeki fans and I are completely different people even though they are my friends.

You are mixing my posts with other peoples posts? And then you say that we are even ignoring our posts and being the bad guys. I DO ask you though to not fuse my words with the words of another person and try to shoot both of us down because of it. Thats the reason why I wonder if this is fair because the other Zeki fans and I are completely different people even though they are my friends.

I see that you still refuse to let go of the issue....let me see now who is mixing what words?

SassyKnight wrote:I have to say that I agree with Shoujo... EVERYTHING I say about ZeKi is shot down or proven wrong and SOME of you can be very rude to me...Im just saying how I feel and HOW do I get treated? LIKE CRAP!

I do not care what some of you say about ZeKi, because I swear I will keep rooting for ZeKi until the very end, and laugh my head off if ZeKi IS endgame and all your posts are worthless...Sorry Im just saying how I feel on this forum and I dont get treated well...And believe me I DONT like how I am being treated!!

I also wanna say to some of you YuMes to STOP being rude to my other mates who are ZeKis like me...PLEASE respect their views and STOP treating them like crap!!! Put yourself in our shoes and think how you would feel!! And seriously, you DONT NEED to write a novel post for EVERYTHING us ZeKi's say that isn't what you believe...RESPECT US AND WE WILL RESPECT YOU!

I think that BOTH couples have a chance...But ZeKi is what I BELIEVE IN!

I am saying how I feel...And ZeKi DOES have romance and it DOES have a chance of being endgame...END OF STORY

PurusBloodLamia wrote:Yes Finally someone says something!!!!

PurusBloodLamia wrote:Look people, I dont know why you guys have to fight with us and quote every letter and disagree. We too are people taking pride in the ship that we recognize and I ask that you give respect. I mean its 3 Zeki fans against like 6 Yume fans on this sight and frankly I dont think the numbers are fair. In chapter 79 I believe it was Yuuki who specifically said " I have to stop Kaname " which in my opinion means he is not doing a good job keeping what I would say a Good Relationship...

I really dislike that every thing that we say is shot down immediately and the fact that we are not ranting on your opinions also adds to it. I dont think we all should be fighting but when times are ridiculous as this then it starts to get out of control.

My final answer is that Zeki will have their moments and nobody can deny that.

Are these my posts? Or I am the one cheering Sassy's aggressive and flamming speech here?
Or perhaps I am the one controlling who you cheer?

There are two parts here; the first part was the flamming and the rude tone with which Sassy talked taking a lead after her friend Shoujo who started a rather non justified attack out of nowhere while we were discussing the Yume vs Zeki subject.

You cheer and applaude these behaviours, and you are tossed the "3 to 6 zekis against yume" subject here -totally irrelevant to any debate done in this thread- I answered to both matters to close that subject.

And the other part is the initial subject for which you all started the flaming and the aggressive/defensive attitude after my latest post where i explained why I believe that Yume can not be compared with Zeki as a COUPLE.

You also ran in the defense mode without any absolute reason to take out your complaints.

(why? because we stated that Yuuki and Zero are not a couple but they are not, are they? did we state that you can not support them as a pairing? NO! On the contrary, we actually said and supported that you can support them as a potential couple. Why not now? simple because if you judge Zeki as a couple NOW, you are falling in the pit called reality - you do not know how they would be as a couple- no manga evidence- so how do you compare them?) and from there, you are answering on your own that Zeki can exist and that you support them. Did we say otherwise? So to whom do you answer?

What's the reason of the attack and the cheers?

1. You cheer a defensive/flamming post that answers to something that we never stated? Why do you throw oil to fire? This is a flaming aggressive behavior and you openly supported it and added to it, not even with a relevant argument, but with a general complaint that is irrelevant to the thread and to the forum, since there is freedom of speech and personal will. We do not oblige people to write...

Anyway, when you are cheering such behaviors and you address general complaints on a thread that discusses the zeki vs yume matter, and you find the opportunity to support your friends and openly take side, please do not tell me

[/b]Thats the reason why I wonder if this is fair because the other Zeki fans and I are completely different people even though they are my friends.

because what is fair also screams with cheers.

2. This is a discussion thread about Zeki vS Yume...not the personal space for you or any other to make attacks and flame the forum. If you have run out of arguments, then stop the discussion, don't swift direction trying to throw the ball elsewhere. The best approach towards this would be such matters and complaints to be erased. You can use pm to tell your personal complaints, the moderating team is obliged to take them into consideration because that's her role. Consuming the space of the threads in this way,
also shows disrespect towards other members that do not want to read irrelevant posts but only the core point of each thread.

Please lets close that subject here, since is time-consuming and leads to nowhere (I think that this is the second time that it is asked), we can all be aggressive if we want but this is not the case. If you have any more arguments about the Zeki vs Yume subject, lets continue, either wise please preserve your personal attacks that do not concern and the readers for other moments and more "heavy matters". You do not want to lose all of your arguments so soon...there i am making you and 'time-economy" , seriously if you want to discuss matters or complaints of personal nature only through pm, or the posts shall be erased and this closes the issue here for me.

juliet wrote:

You are mixing my posts with other peoples posts? And then you say that we are even ignoring our posts and being the bad guys. I DO ask you though to not fuse my words with the words of another person and try to shoot both of us down because of it. Thats the reason why I wonder if this is fair because the other Zeki fans and I are completely different people even though they are my friends.

I see that you still refuse to let go of the issue....let me see now who is mixing what words?

SassyKnight wrote:I have to say that I agree with Shoujo... EVERYTHING I say about ZeKi is shot down or proven wrong and SOME of you can be very rude to me...Im just saying how I feel and HOW do I get treated? LIKE CRAP!

I do not care what some of you say about ZeKi, because I swear I will keep rooting for ZeKi until the very end, and laugh my head off if ZeKi IS endgame and all your posts are worthless...Sorry Im just saying how I feel on this forum and I dont get treated well...And believe me I DONT like how I am being treated!!

I also wanna say to some of you YuMes to STOP being rude to my other mates who are ZeKis like me...PLEASE respect their views and STOP treating them like crap!!! Put yourself in our shoes and think how you would feel!! And seriously, you DONT NEED to write a novel post for EVERYTHING us ZeKi's say that isn't what you believe...RESPECT US AND WE WILL RESPECT YOU!

I think that BOTH couples have a chance...But ZeKi is what I BELIEVE IN!

I am saying how I feel...And ZeKi DOES have romance and it DOES have a chance of being endgame...END OF STORY

PurusBloodLamia wrote:Yes Finally someone says something!!!!

PurusBloodLamia wrote:Look people, I dont know why you guys have to fight with us and quote every letter and disagree. We too are people taking pride in the ship that we recognize and I ask that you give respect. I mean its 3 Zeki fans against like 6 Yume fans on this sight and frankly I dont think the numbers are fair. In chapter 79 I believe it was Yuuki who specifically said " I have to stop Kaname " which in my opinion means he is not doing a good job keeping what I would say a Good Relationship...

I really dislike that every thing that we say is shot down immediately and the fact that we are not ranting on your opinions also adds to it. I dont think we all should be fighting but when times are ridiculous as this then it starts to get out of control.

My final answer is that Zeki will have their moments and nobody can deny that.

Are these my posts? Or I am the one cheering Sassy's aggressive and flamming speech here?
Or perhaps I am the one controlling who you cheer?

There are two parts here; the first part was the flamming and the rude tone with which Sassy talked taking a lead after her friend Shoujo who started a rather non justified attack out of nowhere while we were discussing the Yume vs Zeki subject.

You cheer and applaude these behaviours, and you are tossed the "3 to 6 zekis against yume" subject here -totally irrelevant to any debate done in this thread- I answered to both matters to close that subject.

And the other part is the initial subject for which you all started the flaming and the aggressive/defensive attitude after my latest post where i explained why I believe that Yume can not be compared with Zeki as a COUPLE.

You also ran in the defense mode without any absolute reason to take out your complaints.

(why? because we stated that Yuuki and Zero are not a couple but they are not, are they? did we state that you can not support them as a pairing? NO! On the contrary, we actually said and supported that you can support them as a potential couple. Why not now? simple because if you judge Zeki as a couple NOW, you are falling in the pit called reality - you do not know how they would be as a couple- no manga evidence- so how do you compare them?) and from there, you are answering on your own that Zeki can exist and that you support them. Did we say otherwise? So to whom do you answer?

What's the reason of the attack and the cheers?

1. You cheer a defensive/flamming post that answers to something that we never stated? Why do you throw oil to fire? This is a flaming aggressive behavior and you openly supported it and added to it, not even with a relevant argument, but with a general complaint that is irrelevant to the thread and to the forum, since there is freedom of speech and personal will. We do not oblige people to write...

Anyway, when you are cheering such behaviors and you address general complaints on a thread that discusses the zeki vs yume matter, and you find the opportunity to support your friends and openly take side, please do not tell me

[/b]Thats the reason why I wonder if this is fair because the other Zeki fans and I are completely different people even though they are my friends.

because what is fair also screams with cheers.

2. This is a discussion thread about Zeki vS Yume...not the personal space for you or any other to make attacks and flame the forum. If you have run out of arguments, then stop the discussion, don't swift direction trying to throw the ball elsewhere. The best approach towards this would be such matters and complaints to be erased. You can use pm to tell your personal complaints, the moderating team is obliged to take them into consideration because that's her role. Consuming the space of the threads in this way,
also shows disrespect towards other members that do not want to read irrelevant posts but only the core point of each thread.

Please lets close that subject here, since is time-consuming and leads to nowhere (I think that this is the second time that it is asked), we can all be aggressive if we want but this is not the case. If you have any more arguments about the Zeki vs Yume subject, lets continue, either wise please preserve your personal attacks that do not concern and the readers for other moments and more "heavy matters". You do not want to lose all of your arguments so soon...there i am making you and 'time-economy" , seriously if you want to discuss matters or complaints of personal nature only through pm, or the posts shall be erased and this closes the issue here for me.

Ah yeah I see it now, we have been over the edge sometimes. My apologies to you and the others haha we just got carried away and I speak on behalf of Shoujo and Sassa too. I understand you are one of the main moderators on the sight and from the way you just put it, we did cheer for Sassa as she blew like a bomb From here on out we call peace for Yumes and Zekis until the next big moments between the couples. Once again I apologize for my flaming, as I look at it now, a Yume is just another VK fan just with a different vision. Hopefully one day this gap between us will come together

~~~Lamia

PurusBloodLamia wrote:

juliet wrote:

You are mixing my posts with other peoples posts? And then you say that we are even ignoring our posts and being the bad guys. I DO ask you though to not fuse my words with the words of another person and try to shoot both of us down because of it. Thats the reason why I wonder if this is fair because the other Zeki fans and I are completely different people even though they are my friends.

I see that you still refuse to let go of the issue....let me see now who is mixing what words?

SassyKnight wrote:I have to say that I agree with Shoujo... EVERYTHING I say about ZeKi is shot down or proven wrong and SOME of you can be very rude to me...Im just saying how I feel and HOW do I get treated? LIKE CRAP!

I do not care what some of you say about ZeKi, because I swear I will keep rooting for ZeKi until the very end, and laugh my head off if ZeKi IS endgame and all your posts are worthless...Sorry Im just saying how I feel on this forum and I dont get treated well...And believe me I DONT like how I am being treated!!

I also wanna say to some of you YuMes to STOP being rude to my other mates who are ZeKis like me...PLEASE respect their views and STOP treating them like crap!!! Put yourself in our shoes and think how you would feel!! And seriously, you DONT NEED to write a novel post for EVERYTHING us ZeKi's say that isn't what you believe...RESPECT US AND WE WILL RESPECT YOU!

I think that BOTH couples have a chance...But ZeKi is what I BELIEVE IN!

I am saying how I feel...And ZeKi DOES have romance and it DOES have a chance of being endgame...END OF STORY

PurusBloodLamia wrote:Yes Finally someone says something!!!!

PurusBloodLamia wrote:Look people, I dont know why you guys have to fight with us and quote every letter and disagree. We too are people taking pride in the ship that we recognize and I ask that you give respect. I mean its 3 Zeki fans against like 6 Yume fans on this sight and frankly I dont think the numbers are fair. In chapter 79 I believe it was Yuuki who specifically said " I have to stop Kaname " which in my opinion means he is not doing a good job keeping what I would say a Good Relationship...

I really dislike that every thing that we say is shot down immediately and the fact that we are not ranting on your opinions also adds to it. I dont think we all should be fighting but when times are ridiculous as this then it starts to get out of control.

My final answer is that Zeki will have their moments and nobody can deny that.

Are these my posts? Or I am the one cheering Sassy's aggressive and flamming speech here?
Or perhaps I am the one controlling who you cheer?

There are two parts here; the first part was the flamming and the rude tone with which Sassy talked taking a lead after her friend Shoujo who started a rather non justified attack out of nowhere while we were discussing the Yume vs Zeki subject.

You cheer and applaude these behaviours, and you are tossed the "3 to 6 zekis against yume" subject here -totally irrelevant to any debate done in this thread- I answered to both matters to close that subject.

And the other part is the initial subject for which you all started the flaming and the aggressive/defensive attitude after my latest post where i explained why I believe that Yume can not be compared with Zeki as a COUPLE.

You also ran in the defense mode without any absolute reason to take out your complaints.

(why? because we stated that Yuuki and Zero are not a couple but they are not, are they? did we state that you can not support them as a pairing? NO! On the contrary, we actually said and supported that you can support them as a potential couple. Why not now? simple because if you judge Zeki as a couple NOW, you are falling in the pit called reality - you do not know how they would be as a couple- no manga evidence- so how do you compare them?) and from there, you are answering on your own that Zeki can exist and that you support them. Did we say otherwise? So to whom do you answer?

What's the reason of the attack and the cheers?

1. You cheer a defensive/flamming post that answers to something that we never stated? Why do you throw oil to fire? This is a flaming aggressive behavior and you openly supported it and added to it, not even with a relevant argument, but with a general complaint that is irrelevant to the thread and to the forum, since there is freedom of speech and personal will. We do not oblige people to write...

Anyway, when you are cheering such behaviors and you address general complaints on a thread that discusses the zeki vs yume matter, and you find the opportunity to support your friends and openly take side, please do not tell me

[/b]Thats the reason why I wonder if this is fair because the other Zeki fans and I are completely different people even though they are my friends.

because what is fair also screams with cheers.

2. This is a discussion thread about Zeki vS Yume...not the personal space for you or any other to make attacks and flame the forum. If you have run out of arguments, then stop the discussion, don't swift direction trying to throw the ball elsewhere. The best approach towards this would be such matters and complaints to be erased. You can use pm to tell your personal complaints, the moderating team is obliged to take them into consideration because that's her role. Consuming the space of the threads in this way,
also shows disrespect towards other members that do not want to read irrelevant posts but only the core point of each thread.

Please lets close that subject here, since is time-consuming and leads to nowhere (I think that this is the second time that it is asked), we can all be aggressive if we want but this is not the case. If you have any more arguments about the Zeki vs Yume subject, lets continue, either wise please preserve your personal attacks that do not concern and the readers for other moments and more "heavy matters". You do not want to lose all of your arguments so soon...there i am making you and 'time-economy" , seriously if you want to discuss matters or complaints of personal nature only through pm, or the posts shall be erased and this closes the issue here for me.

Ah yeah I see it now, we have been over the edge sometimes. My apologies to you and the others haha we just got carried away and I speak on behalf of Shoujo and Sassa too. I understand you are one of the main moderators on the sight and from the way you just put it, we did cheer for Sassa as she blew like a bomb From here on out we call peace for Yumes and Zekis until the next big moments between the couples. Once again I apologize for my flaming, as I look at it now, a Yume is just another VK fan just with a different vision. Hopefully one day this gap between us will come together

~~~Lamia

agreed! lets move on...

Yes, sorry guys...I really can get frustrated and angry and just say the wrong things...But as Juliet said, lets move on ^_^

I have always believed that ZeKi was always on a level that YuMe just cannot reach...ZeKi can communicate without words, and know each others feelings but keep it all to themselves...But to be able to see into each others eyes and know that person better than anyone else, is TRUE love to me

And what Kaname said here really gives me the indication that he no longer needs Yuki any more:
http://i32.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/67/vampire-knight-1752629.jpg
"I'm done hesitating...I made my choice only once to stay with you...However, I am going to fulfil my original plans..."

By this statement Kaname said he made his decision to stay with Yuki only once...And he wants to achieve his original goals...Hmmm...It seems to me that Kaname perhaps thinks it's finally time for him to just kill every Pureblood for the sake of coexistence, and then when the time comes, turn Yuki into a human and leave her in Zero's care...That's the only way I see it...Because what will Kaname do? If his desire is no longer Yuki then maybe he wants to die?

Kaname probably knows that sooner or later Yuki WILL have no more hope for living...

I'd just like to put in my opinion here...

The initial reason that I was annoyed was because of people trying to imply that the author herself is a "yume" ( when there is no solid proof behind that, just her thoughts in mind when creating a picture for the artbook, and interpreting the authors opinions...) and that Zeki should not be allowed to exist as a couple...they don't have to be "dating" for us to admire their relationship. I won't apologize for that.

Now, to address the yumes...The fangirling won't stop, and the comparisons between zeki and yume won't stop. So it's futile to even think such saying such a thing as " you can't compare zeki to yume as a real couple" will affect my opinion. There is a strong relationship between Yuuki and Zero (regardless of whether you admit it) and even though they are not in a romantic relationship, yea... i am still going to compare them as if they are, when I feel like it, though mostly i'm only always supporting them getting together, even if someone tells me that I can't. I'm not going to let someone dictate my opinions, I wouldn't be a real fan of Zeki if I did that. So yes... this is related to the topic because it pertains to things that people have said concerning the topic, plus my opinions about zeki Vs yume. I support Zeki until the end, and if you're a true fan of your pairing like me you will support yume til the end, and I encourage you to do so. I respect your paring, but I don't like Kaname. But there's a difference between disliking someone's favorite pairing and bashing them or trying to disprove it in every way possible. I would like the debates to be fair and personal things such as the validity of a couple and the authors opinion to be left out of it. This forum wasn't made to drag in and interpret the thoughts of the author, it's for the fans to express their thoughts, and interpret the characters thoughts and actions, or just to talk about things about the story you like or dislike, am I wrong? If you understand then I thank you and wish to continue the debate when a new chapter comes out. May the war between Yumes and Zekis continue.... without too much character bashing and arrogance & superiority over people who get rightly upset over overstepped boundaries made by some fans.

The initial reason that I was annoyed was because of people trying to imply that the author herself is a "yume" ( when there is no solid proof behind that, just her thoughts in mind when creating a picture for the artbook, and interpreting the authors opinions...) and that Zeki should not be allowed to exist as a couple...they don't have to be "dating" for us to admire their relationship. I won't apologize for that.

I do not think that anybody asked you to apologize for that….but in all these posts that “annoyed” you as you said there was no flaming involved in comparison to your post where you stated…

And I will be ready to laugh in your faces so hard if Zeki wins and all of your novel posts were meaningless.

And let me remind you that this kind of behavior is against the rules of the forum.

Secondly this phrase here that you said…

and that Zeki should not be allowed to exist as a couple...they don't have to be "dating" for us to admire their relationship.

just once more shows your inability, your lack of comprehension over what was stated here, so let me put these words here and IF YOU WANT to understand, then you shall understand. I wont make another attempt (personally) to state the obvious as I repeated that far too many times…

Nina said….

How someone can compare something real and with substance with something nonexistent?

I said…

this is true because Yuuki and Zero were never a couple, so how fans do know how they would be as a couple and they compare that with a true relationship? They can't, is wishful thinking on their part that Zeki as a relationship could work but its exactly the same thing like us saying that Zeki would not work.

A true comparison could be made only to the stage where Kaname and Yuuki were still a potential couple to be...

So no one said that fans can not support pairings to be or pairings in general but you can not judge them as a pairing realistically speaking or create arguments just as they were a canon pairing, simply because they are not.

example: saying that Zeki would be so great together whereas Yume is boring (I am just bringing a very common argument here) is an opinion but more than this where is the reality in this opinion since there is no ZEki as a pairing where you can judge how they would be inside of a relationship? we are talking about thin air there, don't we? (all that I know this part of the sentence has the same significance as me supporting the opposite).


Zeki and Yuuki never passed to the next stage in order for anyone to form an opinion about them as a couple.

Nina said also….

So starting from that point … aren’t equal. Ofc you can debate on whatever you want and support that Zeki WILL (not currently but in the future) prevail but this doesn’t mean also that we should agree with your arguments.

The fangirling won't stop, and the comparisons between zeki and yume won't stop. So it's futile to even think such saying such a thing as " you can't compare zeki to yume as a real couple" will affect my opinion. There is a strong relationship between Yuuki and Zero (regardless of whether you admit it) and even though they are not in a romantic relationship, yea... i am still going to compare them as if they are, when I feel like it, though mostly i'm only always supporting them getting together, even if someone tells me that I can't. I'm not going to let someone dictate my opinions, I wouldn't be a real fan of Zeki if I did that.

Do you understand what is the difference between “debating” and “fangirling” as you state? Between “support” and “compare?”

Yes you can support them and “fangirl” them as much as you want, but you can not (and this does not mean literally you can’t, it means that there is no realistic grounds about that that can form real arguments to take into consideration, you can even support that earth is square, but can you make an argument about it?) compare a real couple that is in an intimate relationship with a couple to be. Are the standards the “same”?

I hope that you understand now the difference between “compare” and “support”. Unless for your own reasons you do not want to. We repeated so many times that you can support whatever you like, that its rather ironic to tell us that “we dictate your opinions”, especially when YOU launched an attack where you said that you shall laugh at our faces, and we even responded with decent ways.
And more than this several times tried and Still try to tell you that your response and your attack refers to a non-existing argument….because we never said that you can not support…

Again all the statements together….

Ofc you can debate on whatever you want and support that Zeki WILL (not currently but in the future) prevail but this doesn’t mean also that we should agree with your arguments.

So no one said that fans can not support pairings to be or pairings in general but you can not judge them as a pairing realistically speaking or create arguments just as they were a canon pairing, simply because they are not.

A true comparison could be made only to the stage where Kaname and Yuuki were still a potential couple to be...

And let me say that the last quote that I made above was actually a common space for discussion that you totally overviewed, because in reality it says;

Since Zeki and Yume are not in the same level , the first are only friends (or they try to), the other one has been through the process of committing to each other, if we want to compare them as “couples” and state their elements of intimacy, romance, love ect., I suggest the comparison to be made in a more previous level where both relationships were about the same “to be..” phase.

Its rather an effort to find a common space for discussion…but obviously you do not want to debate and to use arguments…If this is the case and you just want to fangirl about the pair (without running on our arguments, you can use the Zeki fanclub)…here we debate, either you like it or not and respecting one opinions does not mean that we shall agree, and certainly does not mean that we shall “support” everything that we hear. But we do not bash, attack and flame as you did, its simply discussion, if you are up to it okay, if you are not…

I would like the debates to be fair and personal things such as the validity of a couple and the authors opinion to be left out of it. This forum wasn't made to drag in and interpret the thoughts of the author, it's for the fans to express their thoughts, and interpret the characters thoughts and actions, or just to talk about things about the story you like or dislike, am I wrong?

There is no way to dictate to the fans and to the members what to write or not write, its funny that you who who state that

even though they are not in a romantic relationship, yea... i am still going to compare them as if they are…

just ask from the fans to drop down their arguments. Why? So that you can support Zeki as a real couple? So what is fair to your opinion? You to compare zeki to yume as zeki was a real couple - without the yume members creating an opposition when they can use real evidence to debate your views? If you can debate it, go on, again if you cant that’s lack of arguments from your point, not an issue of “fairness”.

As far as I know this forum was created to debate, to discuss and to fangirl in a civilized manner and there were sections created for it. This is another “debate” thread, it does not belong to any club section. yumes can use their arguments, can the zeki part do the same without resulting to bashing, flaming, attacking and exploding in every little “problem” that they run to?

Let me state one more time (this is tiring), that your wish to support your favorite pair is well embraced and understood (and this appeals for all fandom’s pairings) but when you are in a debate with other members that have an opposite opinion and they want to bring their "evidence" forward, do not run away from the “core discussion” by twisting their words and say things that were never stated and appeal to fairness by asking from the members to exclude important words that can be used as evidence for the yume’s opposition. If you can debate it, do it. What is not allowed is flaming and bashing.

And to get back to the topic…

even though they are not in a romantic relationship, yea... i am still going to compare them as if they are…

I think that you are underestimating what a romantic relationship is. I am really wondering how are you going to compare them, with what? Meaning using which evidence?

Okay since you want this and you insist, apparently I have no reason to stop or to attempt another time to say that you can’t (in terms of ability and not of permissions, as you want to present it). But I no longer have any interest in making any distinction, you can...you can (however you want to put it)...So...

If I ask you now what was the level of commitment between the couples, what is going to be your answer?

If I ask you how they were living together and how do they interacted in terms of intimacy with each other, what shall you answer me?

If I ask you how Yuuki is dealing with separation and how she viewed their common future together what is going to be the answer?

No bashing and flaming please, you want to support your pair as a couple and compare it as one with Yume, so please be my guest….

Shoujo-Zo18 wrote:I'd just like to put in my opinion here...

The initial reason that I was annoyed was because of people trying to imply that the author herself is a "yume" ( when there is no solid proof behind that, just her thoughts in mind when creating a picture for the artbook, and interpreting the authors opinions...) and that Zeki should not be allowed to exist as a couple...they don't have to be "dating" for us to admire their relationship. I won't apologize for that.

I dont think anyone was saying hino is a Yume. We just were pointing out in our view that hino has put alot of emphasis of Yume as a romantic couple in all her vk work (manga, fanbook and artbook) and we feel this isn't how she has portrayed Zeki. Thats just our opinion and view. For all any of us know hino could be Zename. Lol!

And no-ones going to stop or tell you not to be a Zeki. We're all proud of our ships and back them for our own reasons and preferences. We can never change someone's opinion, though we have to expect our posts to be countered in discussions, as not everyone agree's with our opinions. Its a fact of the life in discussion. Some people dont view Zeki as romance, the same as some people don't view Yume as romance. We can't change that persons opinions but we can counter with evidence from the manga, they could easily come back with a counter to our arguement but then thats a discussion.

So lets move on and no hard feelings, kay?

http://i32.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/67/vampire-knight-1752629.jpg
"I'm done hesitating...I made my choice only once to stay with you...However, I am going to fulfil my original plans..."

Hmm...i've been thinking alot about Kaname's word recently and i feel his words here may be linked into what Yuuki said to him when he asked her how she views him. Yuuki called kaname oniisama even after she had seen everything i wodner if this made kaname feel a lack of understanding from Yuuki in regard to him and all she had seen. Also her questioning of his feelings after everything he has done for her must have hurt too. I feel Yuuki's answer may have very well made Kaname wonder if she would ever understand him, Kaname's hurting from what i see in the manga and Yuuki seems to be the core source of this. BUT Yuuki keeps expressing how she doesnt understand him and she gets upset about this. She wants to know him more, she wants to understand him, she wouldn't want this if she didnt care deeply about him. The desire to know everything about your loved one, is something i think everyone feels when they are in love. Yuuki's view of kaname is changing but i find this a good thing as she starting to actually look more at him then an image of him she had in her head. This is wonderful for the Yume relationship as the main flaw really was Yuuki's lack of understanding and with this starting to be overcome it puts them in a stronger position to grow and develop their relationship. In the time they have been seperated Yuuki has had time to process fully all she saw in Kaname's memories. Also she's been able to be more independant and make steps to becoming Kaname's equal. The seperation i think is good for the Yume couple especially good for Yuuki. What Yuuki has to prove now though to is and Kaname is that she does understand or has some understanding, she's shown signs but a deffinate would be good.

Also that lovely famous saying about seperation....

"Distance makes the heart grow fonder."

Sort of fits for Yume i feel.

Shoujo-Zo18 wrote: The initial reason that I was annoyed was because of people trying to imply that the author herself is a "yume" ( when there is no solid proof behind that, just her thoughts in mind when creating a picture for the artbook, and interpreting the authors opinions...)

I had no desire to continue any conversation with you thus I purposely ignored all yours (and your close fellows) previous bashings/flammings/trollings and ranting although it was more than obvious to me that one of the sources of your bursting was my initial post about Hino-sensei’s comments from HER OFFICIAL ARTBOOK!

However since it seems that you are so bothered from it that you can’t take it out of your mind (maybe it was a surprise for you her comments) and continue this issue, without bringing any factual argument to counter back, rather than your own frustration, I have to step in once again regardless my reluctance.

Let’s take it word by word your statement above.

I was annoyed was because of people trying to imply that the author herself is a "yume" ( when there is no solid proof behind that,

First of all I didn’t imply anything … simply cuz I didn’t have to … the author’s OWN WORDS were more than enough for me. In fact I stated it to make it more obvious! Let’s see again my initial post >>

nina wrote: And since the manga itself it is apparently not enough I’ll use the author’s own words about Yume and Zeki from the art book>>

1. About Zeki:





2. About Yume (NOT REQUESTED):






I think my words are needless

As you can see there is NONE word mine regarding Hino’s comments!
Now since it wasn’t my words that irritated you so much but the AUTHOR’S, your complaints and frustration probably should be turned elsewhere ... It’s not my fault you know if the author’s OWN words about Zeki and Yume do not suit your case and certainly your demand NOT to bring/use the authors words in our arguments it is ridiculous.

just her thoughts in mind when creating a picture for the artbook, and interpreting the authors opinions...)

Just her thoughts? And whose thoughts does it matter if not the authors??? Mine or yours???
Oh wait I think you have given already the answer to this >>

Shoujo-Zo18 wrote: I suppose if it's what the author wants then no one else's opinion matters right? As if Hino is that selfish, she would be shocked right now,

Now, now … what can I say more here … hahaha but since isn’t apparent for you let me answer to your question.

YES … any author’s opinion is the one that matters << this is the usually pattern that applies all around the world you know. Simply because we are reading Hino’s story and not yours or mine!

Just to inform you though … Hino has stated that she knows the end of her story since the beginning … how selfish O.O

and interpreting the authors opinions...

Again I didn’t interpret the author’s words … I left them speak from itself << this made them even more powerful (as I guessed) cuz deprived from you the chance to stick on my own interpretations tossing aside the author’s words!

And as it seems to me from your replies, stripped from any factual counterargument but yet full of assaults and ranting, probably I was right.

May the war between Yumes and Zekis continue.... without too much character bashing and arrogance & superiority over people who get rightly upset over overstepped boundaries made by some fans.

Look who’s talking! Reflect first on your own behaviour before start making recommendations to others … your record is too heavy!
And if your boundaries are so limited that you cannot tolerate or understand what a debate is then don’t do it … no one is forcing you. Cuz as it seems your idea of what a debate is, is to shut the others mouth!

As your friend previously said and you were cheering on her >>

SassyKnight wrote: EVERYTHING I say about ZeKi is shot down or proven wrong

This is flattering you know rather than an accusation hahaha because that’s the meaning of a debate … if you are feeling that your opinions or arguments are proven wrong then that means that your arguments are weak or false lol.

And since your fave subject is your “rights” let me tell you that the right to self-exposure is also indefeasible … and who understood, understood.

As for the rest of your post I co-sign Juliet’s reply though I suppose she probably will tire you with her “novel” post

Ps. All this repeatedly “discussion” about "rights" blah blah blah has nothing to do with this thread, so if you do not have nothing to add upon the subject stop repeating the same irrelevant issues over and over again going into circles cuz this is pure spamming …

i don't know what the fuss about. canon/fanon, none of its permanent until its endgame. for the artbook, i find her words are pretty ambiguous. from her interviews and comments, it seems that hino doesn't want to give anything away about who is endgame and who she likes best, i.e. according to her its a "secret". which is why the generic books have all three on the cover.

for the whining zekis. please grow up cos you're not making your case any better. there's a zeki forum if you feel more comfortable chatting with people who care more about zeki.

nina wrote: And since the manga itself it is apparently not enough I’ll use the author’s own words about Yume and Zeki from the art book>>

I do think the implication was what you intended from your underlining in the quotes and knowing that you intend it negatively for zeki/positively for yume. but its a bit silly of anyone to take it so rashly.

1. About Zeki:

Lala usually request what will be on the cover and its usually for fanservice (like the wet boys). hino didn't have to make zeki here sweet and romantic looking, she could have made it angsty and tense or just plain friendly or like rivals. i don't have my artbook with me, but as I recall, Yuuki and the red chains and the kaname background was one of the few that weren't requested, but its not romantic either so...hino obviously put a lot of thoughts into the zeki picture in making up a scenario in how zeki could be so sweetly together when they were enemies at the time.

2. About Yume (NOT REQUESTED):

lala don't tell hino what to put on the book covers, so that means hino always gets to choose her own volume covers...well probably with the help of her editor. yuuki returning to being a vampire and kuran, it was always coming.

there isn't anything personal in these statements except for the fact that hino is proud of achieving what she set out to convey to reinforce her story. the only confirmed personal thing i ever saw was hino and her friends getting titillation out of kaname/zero.