Vampire Knight 87 FULL RAWS AND TRANSLATION

First topic message reminder :

http://tieba.baidu.com/p/1935373666

translation here: http://vampire-knight.livejournal.com/1013045.html

@Knightmare, now I see what you intend when you say "you set your expectations". You really want to see a Zeki ending, it's plain from what you're writing, and you have interpreted the story in this way until now.

I have to say again that it's been a few months since I started reading VK, so I haven't lived the battle between Yume/Zeki so much and this is the only forum I follow, so this puts me outside of the "war" . I obviously prefer Kaname and Yume, but this is my POV. I made myself a lot of questions, I exposed my doubt in other topics, too, I read and read VK again, and I have to say that I've always tried to be objective. I find a bit stupid the "war" at all, too. As I wrote elsewhere, I think that it's not a question of being splitted in parties, or counting how many times the three of them kissed each other, or "Kaname is evil and Zero is a poor child so he HAS to have Yuuki in the end" and vice versa.

So, I think that if one completely ignores Yuuki's behaviour towards Kaname and focuses only on the panels in which Yuuki cares about Zero, and if one completely ignores the pending questions we have about Yuuki's powers and Kaname's past, yes, your POV is coherent and completely agreeable. You may tell me: but there are no pending questions at all, this is only an interpretation of yours and few others, and as regards Yume, well, I SAW those panels, so it's plain for me that Zeki is the true love story and not the opposite, Yume is only a childish crush that is clearly going to disappear.

The panels you pointed out, I noticed them myself (except the one in which you say that Yuuki wants to stay with Kaname not to be alone - sorry, but I never thought that this is the only reason why Yuuki chose Kaname, as you are stating).

But I really can't understand how you can state that "the real plot is not the coexistence, but the three of them" and that Yuuki loves Kaname too, and it's important for her, when I read

Knightmare wrote:
i see the two relationships as very different and actually find incredible amount of depth of feelings between Zero and Yuuki, always have.

Yes, and I never thought it was a simple friendship, too, but when I say that the two relationship cannot be compared, I want to say exactly the opposite: that through every panel until now, we saw Yume developing. Not Zeki. And that the sentences Yuuki states about Kaname (taint me too, I want to start properly, I wanted to see your face right after your memories, I want to devour him, I belong to him, her blushing every time she sees him, her reactions every time she stays with him, and so on...), Yuuki never tells them about Zero. She likes him, she cherishes him and maybe she has a human love for him. But you can't simply say that:

Knightmare wrote:
in all honesty, to me, yuuki fell in love with kaname as a child, she had a perception of him that has slowly broken down since she became a vampire, the final bit kaname ripped away was being her brother. I don't think this made her hate him, but what remained was just the pretty face and the tasty blood. i think she loves the kaname that she knew, i just don't actually believe she loves the kaname that is before her now, simply because she doesn't know him.

And that

I don't recall her actually missing kaname except for the fact that she couldn't drink his blood when she was thirsting

when we see Yuuki tell her new brother "taint me too" (oh, well, she didn't seem to be so shocked by their "brocest" in that very moment), when we see Yuuki growing butterfly wings to follow him after the very moment he kills Aidou's father, when we see her going after him and hoping Kaname comes to take her away "like the other time", when she goes towards him ("My Kaname") in the night she sees him in the shadows (and Zero is there), when she reacts to the bad news Zero tells her at the Academy (the fake news Kaname wanted Kaien to tell her to push her away) with "Oh, well, I know that what he wants is to be hated by me, but I don't care, I will stay in the place he wants me to stay and then I will give him a slap or two or three". AND that she absolutely doesn't miss Kaname, yes, that's why she thinks about the "childish and excessive words" and imagine Kaname embracing her at the Academy

And I could go on and on, but I stop here. So, for you, all these hints (as you say, "but i've always felt i just had to be patient and take what hints and allusions hino handed us") can be simply erased by the other hints you pointed out?

If the three of them are important to you, so please don't underestimate the relationship between Yuuki and Kaname.
As I'm taking your observation in good consideration, and I'm reflecting about them, but - sorry, I don't want to make you angry, this is only my opinion - you seem to simply ignore all the panels and sentences we pointed out here and in other topics, too. So, we probably have collected and misunderstood a whole bunch of hints that Hino gave and that are absolutely not important for the true story? It may be, but the fact is, you say:

Knightmare wrote:
their relationship is not simple and would not be solved by such a ploy as a love declaration, such things need to be worked up to slowly by Hino.

i've felt that the pace has been slow in this 2nd arc and actually, on the whole, the plots have been subpar, she promised to pick up the pace after volume 13, but rumour has it, that Hino didn't know how long she had until vol 16 was released (she didn't say how long apparently), so recently it really has picked up in speed.

I'm with you when you say that Zeki's relationship is difficult, but apart the few episodes you pointed out - you were the one to say that nothing really developed between them until now, when "Hino picked up in speed" and that "in this 2nd arc the plot was slow" - or simply, what you hoped for took a long time to happen? - well, apart them. What we saw until now, in both the first and second arc, was a slow development of Yume relationship, with some sparkles here and there of Zeki. If Hino wants to develop Zeki, this is probably the starting point and none of us can know how it's going to be (only Hino ). But to tell that until now the relationship between Yuuki and Kaname was only a teenager crush that only made the true Zeki relationship slower than expected, well. If I was Hino, I wouldn't take 86 chapters only to sell some bunch of paper and then "pick up in speed" to make the story finally come out as I want, totally changing "the pace" in some panels.

Please don't misunderstand: I'm not saying that Zeki cannot, or won't develop at all. I'm only saying that Hino is very clever in telling stories - or this is what it seemed to me until now - and that she developed the plot in such a good way until now that, if something must develop until Zeki, it would not just be a kiss at a ball because they are masked, the very night after she tells him she belongs to Kaname, and just after the kiss, she tells "BUT I..." as soon as she sees Kaname.

I think that Hino would have to develop them to put their relationship on the same level than Yume, because, as you say, they have no present to share at the moment and they are only attached to their past memories (so, what is the difference with Yuuki teenage crush/good face/good blood for Kaname-of-the-past? ) - and for this, I don't know how many chapters it will take, but she simply can't "change the pace" in a little bunch of panels. Oh well, but if you think that Yume relationship is simply finished and erased, and that the level of it was not high at all... I understand your POV. Let us see

First of all Thank you very much for the links. UNBELIEVABLE! I'm just extremely excited..man! this chapter was revealing and by far one of my favourites. Never expected these things to happen in just one chapter. The last part was nearly a kiss or was a kiss..nevermind it's so great how the plot just developed..I feel sorry for Kaname because he came and saw Yuuki and Zero like that but he has some kind of GPS for Yuuki, what's good is Yuuki admiting or finally we get some evidence that she has real feelings for Zero (correct me if I'm wrong) but the final sentence for that: "But I.. is obviously LOVE KANAME or BELONG TO KANAME..Anyways I can't wait the get that answer and maybe we'll see a fight.

yuuki kiryuu wrote:First of all Thank you very much for the links. UNBELIEVABLE! I'm just extremely excited..man! this chapter was revealing and by far one of my favourites. Never expected these things to happen in just one chapter. The last part was nearly a kiss or was a kiss..nevermind it's so great how the plot just developed..I feel sorry for Kaname because he came and saw Yuuki and Zero like that but he has some kind of GPS for Yuuki, what's good is Yuuki admiting or finally we get some evidence that she has real feelings for Zero (correct me if I'm wrong) but the final sentence for that: "But I.. is obviously LOVE KANAME or BELONG TO KANAME..Anyways I can't wait the get that answer and maybe we'll see a fight.

This is by far the best and most objective comment about the situation I've read until now.

I'm totally with you but for the fact that this is the best VK chapter I've ever read.

I will "resume" my POV so that nobody can misunderstand

What we SEE here, is a Yuuki that has true feelings -whatever they are - for Zero, but always with the big "Kaname BUT" , so, besides the fact that finally Zero can stand her presence and contact (), I really can't see a BIG development in their relationship.

Yuuki always said and showed for Zero the same feelings of care and cherish (and love) she states here, together with a sense of guilt - that we can sense here, too.
As for Zero, if I was a Zeki fan I would really want to see him admitting openly she loves Yuuki as she is, PB or not PB, and to sense that he finally understood that not all PB are evil. He's only starting to change his mind about this, but he's in love with Yuuki in the past, the dead Yuuki of a year ago - and we can't see any feeling coming from him in the "kiss" scene, why?

That's why I'm not with the ones who say that Hino wants to hurry and make the story follow its "true" path, that is, Zeki. We have a lot to develop before the two relationships can balance: we have to solve both Zero's stubborn "racism" and Yuuki's BUT for Kaname. We can't do it in three or four panels - or, well, at last, a clever author can't do it, and Hino always showed to be clever.

Furhermore, the funny thing about all this is that I don't feel the need to deny at all costs that Yuuki has feelings for Zero - or that she maybe love him, but those who state this always feel the need to erase her relationship with Kaname, or to minimize it - why?

I never stated that we can't have a Zeki ending at all, I only don't want the plot to become "cheap", and I really can't understand the meaning of the last two chapters, as I wrote elsewhere: we have Yuuki at the mansion doing nothing but telling Zero she made her decision ("friendzoning" is obviously a joke - even if she loves the both of them, she will have to make a decision in the end, and I don't think some words like "I belong to Kaname" can be simply erased by a ball a few hours later). Then, they throw ourselves down a hill and go to a masquerade. I mean, evil Kaname was hiding somewhere planning something evil, but he suddenly appears at the masquerade in the very moment they "kiss" to do what? To spank bad girl Yuuki and make a scene? Please, we are in the middle of a war. Let's concentrate on the battle.

But if we really HAVE to concentrate on the three of them - on the "true" sense of the story for somebody - well. Accepting each other, and being able to overcome the places society - or whatever it is - gave to Yuuki and Zero, THIS would be the key to make a real twist.

Because Yume went too far. Some said Yuuki started to break away from Kaname from the very moment she "discovered" he was her brother. Well, to begin with, she didn't "discover" anything. She simply regained her memories, and in her memories she knew he was her brother, and she loved him since their childhood perfectly knowing this. And her reaction to the "discovery" is -> I've been always in love with my own brother. And ardent kisses and so on.
Then, soon after the "discovery", he tells her he's a murderer. She is obviously shocked about this, but what's her reaction after the shock? -> "Taint me too, Kaname". And desires of his blood (and something else ) and so on.
Then, she discovers he's not her brother at all, he's her ancestor, and what's her reaction after waking up? -> I wanted to see your face as the first thing after your memories, so why you went away? I was afraid you flew, I don't want you to go away, I want to start properly from now on so that we can know each other, so that I can truly become your equal.
Then, he abandons her. What does she do? -> She wants to reach him at any costs, then she misses him, she doesn't reject him, she hopes him to come and take her away, and finally she takes the decision to stop him, at the price of her own life, if needed.

I see a REAL development in all of this, a development in which Yuuki overcame every kind of obstacle in her effort to stay with Kaname, and I don't think it's only a question of not wanting to be alone. We can state something like this for Sara-Takuma's relationship, for example. But if we state that the only reason why Yuuki follows Kaname is that "society wants this", that Kaname is the "proper" partner for her while Zero is forbidden, oh well, then she played very well the part society gave to her, by faking her feelings so much and never stating she LOVES Zero (while we have a whole bunch of panel in which she says and thinks that she LOVES Kaname). She never states this even in her dreams. What a good PB girl, that doesn't make anything forbidden even in her thoughts.

So, what I want to say, is that if I was a Zeki fan, I would want Hino to give the two of them the same attention and development she put in Yume relationship. I wouldn't be happy for a supposed kiss that end with a Kaname-BUT as usual, and I would want Zero to grow up a bit. HE was the one who locked his feelings so far, and this is clear from the beginning. I would want him to overcome almost the same amount of obstacles Yuuki overcame. Yuuki was able to accept Kaname as he is, but Zero has never been able to accept the PB side of Yuuki. This is very sad. As for Yuuki, she clearly doesn't want to stay with him for now, so this episode isn't decisive at all.

I mean, if Hino wants to resolve all this "in a hurry", well, she's going to ruin the whole story, because all these points deserve the same attention and care she put in the plot until now - and if not the same amount of chapters, well, surely not very few totally disconnected ones!!!

Let's not forget that she knew how the story would end from the beginning, so she may be in doubt about the number of chapters left, but not about the plot. So I'll exclude that she doesn't know and planned the correct way to develop everything. If she really doesn't know and is trying to cut it out to make everything fit in the last few chapters, well, I'm sorry but I really overestimated her talent and I'm going to sell all VK volumes I've bought until now.

And I can't understand how somebody can be satisfied, to see the story end like he/she wants by ruining the quality of the whole plot, and the talent and reputation of a true artist. This is the thing that would make me sad if something like this is really happening. I don't care about the ending, I want to see a masterpiece. That's all.

Duskola wrote:@Knightmare, now I see what you intend when you say "you set your expectations". You really want to see a Zeki ending, it's plain from what you're writing, and you have interpreted the story in this way until now.

Oh yeah definitely, Zeki all the way. What I mean in saying that, is that your questions can't be answered quickly when you have a different interpretations coupled with requirements of how the romance should flow. Just as Yume doesn't meet my requirements of a lovely romance or expectation of relationship that will last that where they are both happy. Should the story go that route, I have a number of requirements, but I don't think I would ever be satisfied because yume isn't the type of relationship I enjoy (thus it would never get "there").

not that some of your questions or mine couldn't be answered/responded to, but it would take time and effort.

The panels you pointed out, I noticed them myself (except the one in which you say that Yuuki wants to stay with Kaname not to be alone - sorry, but I never thought that this is the only reason why Yuuki chose Kaname, as you are stating).

I only think loneliness is the reason she made a choice, she chose Kaname because she wanted him, though I tend to see her as being skewed by her desire for blood, but this is a vampire manga, so its also expected.

And that the sentences Yuuki states about Kaname (taint me too, I want to start properly, I wanted to see your face right after your memories, I want to devour him, I belong to him, her blushing every time she sees him, her reactions every time she stays with him, and so on...), Yuuki never tells them about Zero. She likes him, she cherishes him and maybe she has a human love for him. But you can't simply say that:

Well there is context to every statement. Yuuki and Kaname's relationship is not simple either. For example:
"taint me too" is not a development between them, certainly not a simple expression of the depth of her love as some people seem to see it. She does say it because she loves him, but that scene is driven by guilt, Yuuki's guilt over Kaname's actions, Yuuki is driven to make that statement because she is the cause of Kaname's tainting and she doesn't want to hurt him too because she keeps causing everyone she loves pain. There is some romantic context of course, she still loves him in spite of his taint, but she still bear a burden of atonement here that she think about while he's telling her how irrestible she looks.

when we see Yuuki tell her new brother "taint me too" (oh, well, she didn't seem to be so shocked by their "brocest" in that very moment)

Yuuki already accepted her love for Kaname back in 37 despite the incest issue because they were beasts. incest was never meant to be a hurdle despite Zeki complaints and readers who were turned off by it, Hino deflected it with the "not really her brother" statement.

when we see Yuuki growing butterfly wings to follow him after the very moment he kills Aidou's father, when we see her going after him and hoping Kaname comes to take her away "like the other time",

Yuuki's extreme response to abandonment, which she also likens her helplessness to the parting with Zero, i feel that her issue of fear of being alone drives her response. She has a fear of it, but that doesn't mean she can't actually handle it when she is forced to be alone 69+. Pureblood Vampires suffer from loss of meaning to their lives, they cling to love as a reason for living, but my theory is that purpose gives them a reason to live, which is what I think Yuuki needs independent of the boys.

that she absolutely doesn't miss Kaname, yes, that's why she thinks about the "childish and excessive words" and imagine Kaname embracing her at the Academy

As I said, even in those moments, she doesn't express the desire of actually missing him (she says if he were there, she could drink his blood), her issues with him are complex thoughts over his actions. I have no problem with Yuuki calling it childish and excessive because she couldn't hold back telling Kaname about her heart issues, my perspective is that if she had been stronger and more mature, she could have handled that a lot better, as it was, it was a valuable scene of revelation. Most of Yuuki's thoughts are provoked by other people and usually around stopping kaname/wanting to know what he's doing.

And I could go on and on, but I stop here. So, for you, all these hints (as you say, "but i've always felt i just had to be patient and take what hints and allusions hino handed us") can be simply erased by the other hints you pointed out?

And yet its not a competition, they don't cancel each other out. Also, you have your view of the meaning and depth of the above moments and I have a different perspective. And there is also the flipside of the negative moments.

moments such as yuuki seeing kaname as a liar and secretive etc, kaname's desire to control yuuki, his overprotecting her, the fact she understands Zero so well and knows so little of kaname, kaname keeping the mother of all secrets, 'rido' advising kaname on how to handle yuuki and so forth.

As I'm taking your observation in good consideration, and I'm reflecting about them, but - sorry, I don't want to make you angry, this is only my opinion - you seem to simply ignore all the panels and sentences we pointed out here and in other topics, too. So, we probably have collected and misunderstood a whole bunch of hints that Hino gave and that are absolutely not important for the true story?

It always amuses me that people provide this response when another person has such a different perspective to the story. The amount of times I've heard that "Zeki is over", "Zero doesn't love Yuuki", "Zero will never accept Yuuki", "Yuuki only thinks of Zero as a friend/brother" contrary to the many arguments put forth, doesn't mean I think these people don't read the story or hear the evidence, I know they jut don't see it the same way regardless of what they have noticed or not.

Knightmare wrote:
their relationship is not simple and would not be solved by such a ploy as a love declaration, such things need to be worked up to slowly by Hino.

i've felt that the pace has been slow in this 2nd arc and actually, on the whole, the plots have been subpar, she promised to pick up the pace after volume 13, but rumour has it, that Hino didn't know how long she had until vol 16 was released (she didn't say how long apparently), so recently it really has picked up in speed.

[quote]
I'm with you when you say that Zeki's relationship is difficult, but apart the few episodes you pointed out - you were the one to say that nothing really developed between them until now, when "Hino picked up in speed" and that "in this 2nd arc the plot was slow" - or simply, what you hoped for took a long time to happen?
[quote]
No, the plots have been sloppy and sluggish in the 2nd arc, its taken since 54 to deal with sara, a villian who I never saw as a threat and who as predicted, just fizzled out, her blood tablets plot was just a subplot to make yuuki look active and use up her blood. In contrast, Shizuka was a tight plot dealt with from ~13 to ~20 and Rido from ~30 to 43. These villains drive the subplots and keep the pace moving while the story deals with the overarching story of Kaname's ultimate plan.


They are not attached to the past memories, they are attached to the people they knew in the past, Zero lacks confirmation that person still exists and for Yuuki, its about whether Zero will ever accept her, but she knows and confirms her feelings for Zero are real, but there are obviously still issues beyond even Zero's feelings.

What I thought was interesting, is the comments from the characters that Yuuki belongs with Kaname, Kaname, Zero, Yuuki and Kaien have all said it, but Kaien has recognised that its much more complicated than that and I would say that he is the first to support Zero/Yuuki.

Duskola wrote:And I can't understand how somebody can be satisfied, to see the story end like he/she wants by ruining the quality of the whole plot, and the talent and reputation of a true artist. This is the thing that would make me sad if something like this is really happening. I don't care about the ending, I want to see a masterpiece. That's all.

Well, the thing is Zekis got nothing for 86 chapters so it's no surprise they got excited when final after 87 chapters they got a near kiss/kiss. I mean for 86 chapters Yuuki has been all about Kaname...and now she has flashbacks of the past with Zero and how her feelings for him are real. Nevermind, it's a random scene thrown in there out of the blue and it feels totally disconnected. I would have preferred for Yuuki to think my feelings for him are real when Zero said in Ch 86 "What do you think about all this?" Yuuki could have told him then "My feelings are real, I want to cherish you Zero." I feel like Hino is just using Zero as a plot device. She's just throwing him in the middle of Kaname and Yuuki. Why did Kaname appear when Zero and Yuuki kiss? To me, the kiss must have angered Kaname or made him jealous enough to appear or else I don't see the point of him revealing himself to Zero and Yuuki.


When Kaname made the decision to let Yuuki go he must have accepted the possibility that Yuuki could be with another man...or maybe that was never his intention. Maybe, he wanted Yuuki to mature and take a stand but he never really wanted to let her go. He had to let her go, in order to execute his plans of killing purebloods.

Yuuki's feelings are true that she wants to cherish Zero. That's nice, thing is Yuuki said the same thing in the past that she wants to cherish Zero. So...where is the love confession? There's no, I'm in love with Zero or I've always been in love with Zero like when she confessed she's always been in love with her brother. She loves Zero, I never doubted that, It's whether Yuuki is "in love" with Zero that's doubtful.

Even if she likes Zero...like is not equivalent to love. Hino would have to show her growing to love Zero as a man and not a boy. I agree with you that Zeki is far from catching up to Yume...WAY too many love confessions for Yume...Zeki has a long way to go. That's precisely why this sudden kiss was like wtf and so disconnected and out of place.

And then there's the fact that Yuuki is still thirsty. Some Zekis gloated that Yuuki didn't need blood after taking Zero's blood, but we learned in this ch 87 that Yuuki was hidden the fact that she needed blood. Oh so, all those times Yuuki kept drinking a lot of Kaname's blood was not a bad thing but in fact normal. *gasp* I swear Hino likes to troll. Why make the blood thing a big deal only to say in the end once you are sated you always want the blood of that person? That explains Yuuki wanting to devour Kaname, and Zero wanting to devour Yuuki.

In that regards, Kaname's blood sated Yuuki. And Yuuki's blood sated Zero. Yuuki only took a little of Zero's blood and she said afterwards she never wanted blood from him. I think this chapter was pretty interesting...aside from being random.

Knightmare wrote:It always amuses me that people provide this response when another person has such a different perspective to the story. The amount of times I've heard that "Zeki is over", "Zero doesn't love Yuuki", "Zero will never accept Yuuki", "Yuuki only thinks of Zero as a friend/brother" contrary to the many arguments put forth, doesn't mean I think these people don't read the story or hear the evidence, I know they jut don't see it the same way regardless of what they have noticed or not.

I know this wasn't directed towards me, but I wanted to say people on the other side have said some of the same things about Yume. It's always "Yuuki is infatuated with Kaname", "Yuuki is really in love with Zero", Yuuki's just with Kaname because she's lonely", "Yuuki cut her hair she mutually broke up with Kaname" *snortgiggles* Both sides have been wrong about a lot of things. So no one is always 100% right. Zeki might be right about Yuuki possibly being in love with Zero, but they are wrong about so many other things. And the story is not over yet. Yuuki still has not declare her undevoted love for Zero just that she wants to cherish the boy which is not new, she said in the past she wants to cherish Zero. So forgive me for wanting a love confession from Yuuki that states she's "in love" with Zero.

Even if you argue that she likes Zero I can counter she may "like" Zero but she's "In love" with Kaname. Yuuki hasn't stated anywhere that she fell out of love with Kaname, Zekis are the ones who assumes that she has. In chapter 87, even she's saying she wants to cherish Zero and then comes the "But I..." which is negative for Zeki. There's shouldn't be a but. When Yuuki wanted to properly start over with Kaname there was no but..so why must there be a but where Zero is concern? Her feelings are real (we already knew this) Kaname couldn't have manipulated Yuuki to care for Zero, she did so of her own free will, out of kindness. Question is: What's stopping Yuuki from cherishing the boy she always wanted to cherish?

The answer I can think of, is, there was always Kaname. Kaname who Yuuki has always been "in love" with, both as a human and as a Pureblood. She wants to cherish Zero but there's her love for Kaname is how I interpret it.

So in conclusion, Kaname has to die or Yuuki has to fall out of love with Kaname in order for her to be with Zero. Thing is, with so few chapters left Hino would have to rush Zeki and they wouldn't have a proper romantic development like Yume had. Well, Zekis would be happy ofc, but Yumes would feel cheated because Kaname and Yuuki have always been far ahead of the game. While Zero and Yuuki had the friend status for 86 chapters.

ButterflyWingsX wrote:Well, the thing is Zekis got nothing for 86 chapters so it's no surprise they got excited when final after 87 chapters they got a near kiss/kiss. I mean for 86 chapters Yuuki has been all about Kaname...and now she has flashbacks of the past with Zero and how her feelings for him are real. Nevermind, it's a random scene thrown in there out of the blue and it feels totally disconnected. I would have preferred for Yuuki to think my feelings for him are real when Zero said in Ch 86 "What do you think about all this?" Yuuki could have told him then "My feelings are real, I want to cherish you Zero." I feel like Hino is just using Zero as a plot device. She's just throwing him in the middle of Kaname and Yuuki. Why did Kaname appear when Zero and Yuuki kiss? To me, the kiss must have angered Kaname or made him jealous enough to appear or else I don't see the point of him revealing himself to Zero and Yuuki.

Oh, thank you, I was starting to think I've been reading a totally different kind of story until now, or that I haven't understood anything for 86 chapters just joking ;)

ButterflyWingsX wrote:
I know this wasn't directed towards me, but I wanted to say people on the other side have said some of the same things about Yume. It's always "Yuuki is infatuated with Kaname", "Yuuki is really in love with Zero", Yuuki's just with Kaname because she's lonely", "Yuuki cut her hair she mutually broke up with Kaname" *snortgiggles* Both sides have been wrong about a lot of things. So no one is always 100% right. Zeki might be right about Yuuki possibly being in love with Zero, but they are wrong about so many other things. And the story is not over yet. Yuuki still has not declare her undevoted love for Zero just that she wants to cherish the boy which is not new, she said in the past she wants to cherish Zero. So forgive me for wanting a love confessions from Yuuki that states she's "In love" with Zero.

Even if you argue that she likes Zero I can counter she may "like" Zero but she's "In love" with Kaname. Yuuki hasn't stated anyway that she fell out of love with Kaname, Zekis are the ones who assumes that she has. In chapter 87, even she's saying she wants to cherish Zero and then comes the "But I..." which is negative for Zeki. There's shouldn't be a but. When Yuuki wanted to properly start over with Kaname there was no but..so why must there be a but where Zero is concern? Her feelings are real (we already knew this) Kaname couldn't have manipulated Yuuki to care for Zero, she did so of her own free will, out of kindness. Question is: What's stopping Yuuki from cherishing the boy she always wanted to cherish?

The answer I can think of, is, there was always Kaname. Kaname who Yuuki has always been "in love" with, both as a human and as a Pureblood. She wants to cherish Zero but there's her love for Kaname is how I interpret it.

So in conclusion, Kaname has to die or Yuuki has to fall out of love with Kaname in order for her to be with Zero. Thing is, with so few chapters left Hino would have to rush Zeki and they wouldn't have a proper romantic development like Yume had. Well, Zekis would be happy ofc, but Yumes would feel cheated because Kaname and Yuuki have always been far ahead of the game. While Zero and Yuuki had the friend status for 86 chapters.

*applause* *applause* *applause*

@Knightmare, I perfectly understand your POV and why you minimize or see Yume relationship as a sort of "obsession", both a desire for Yuuki not to be alone and desire of blood as a vampire and trying to find a place in the world. And I understand that the feeling you have when somebody tells Yuuki has no romantic feelings at all for Zero is the same feeling of astonishment I have reading that Yuuki is attached to Kaname for something other than pure love.

Still.

Knightmare wrote:
Oh yeah definitely, Zeki all the way. What I mean in saying that, is that your questions can't be answered quickly when you have a different interpretations coupled with requirements of how the romance should flow. Just as Yume doesn't meet my requirements of a lovely romance or expectation of relationship that will last that where they are both happy. Should the story go that route, I have a number of requirements, but I don't think I would ever be satisfied because yume isn't the type of relationship I enjoy (thus it would never get "there").
(...) not that some of your questions or mine couldn't be answered/responded to, but it would take time and effort.

this deeply contrast with what you said, that Hino wants to "hurry" and develop Zeki all at once in these few chapters. I mean, if a Zeki ending must happen, it must be developed as much as Yume not to make the wonderful plot to result in a total mess.

Knightmare wrote:
I only think loneliness is the reason she made a choice, she chose Kaname because she wanted him, though I tend to see her as being skewed by her desire for blood, but this is a vampire manga, so its also expected.

So your POV is that she chose Kaname both for her loneliness and her (almost sexual) desire for his blood, and that's it? Just to see if I understood well.

Knightmare wrote:Yuuki and Kaname's relationship is not simple either

I'm with you, so what about the "the-most-difficult-relationship-usually-prevails-in-a-story-like-this" motive? Let's start a poll to decide which relationship between Yume and Zeki is more difficult just joking obviously ;)

Knightmare wrote:Well there is context to every statement. Yuuki and Kaname's relationship is not simple either. For example:
"taint me too" is not a development between them, certainly not a simple expression of the depth of her love as some people seem to see it. She does say it because she loves him, but that scene is driven by guilt, Yuuki's guilt over Kaname's actions, Yuuki is driven to make that statement because she is the cause of Kaname's tainting and she doesn't want to hurt him too because she keeps causing everyone she loves pain. There is some romantic context of course, she still loves him in spite of his taint, but she still bear a burden of atonement here that she think about while he's telling her how irrestible she looks.

She might be astonished, but then the story goes on, so, if that was the start of a change in her feelings, we would see more in the next chapters or POV. But you obviously saw them while I didn't, so... there's no way our view can agree, as it seems.

Knightmare wrote:Yuuki already accepted her love for Kaname back in 37 despite the incest issue because they were beasts

Yuuki loved Kaname since she was a child. "When we grow up we will become like father and mother" is a memory of her that date at their childhood. And their parents were brother and sister, too. Should she be disgusted by her own parents? And her parents, did they stay together only not to be alone as PB? Their love is the most beautiful and happy we have seen in the whole story until now.

Knightmare wrote:my perspective is that if she had been stronger and more mature, she could have handled that a lot better, as it was, it was a valuable scene of revelation. Most of Yuuki's thoughts are provoked by other people and usually around stopping kaname/wanting to know what he's doing


her blood tablets plot was just a subplot to make yuuki look active and use up her blood

So, for you Yuuki is nothing more than an immature child who is deeply influenced by others and has not his own will? Since she is the heroine of the manga and one of my favourite character, I don't think so. But, again, this is my POV.

Knightmare wrote:
The amount of times I've heard that "Zeki is over", "Zero doesn't love Yuuki", "Zero will never accept Yuuki", "Yuuki only thinks of Zero as a friend/brother" contrary to the many arguments put forth, doesn't mean I think these people don't read the story or hear the evidence, I know they jut don't see it the same way regardless of what they have noticed or not.

I've never stated any of the above sentences. You probably have no doubts at all, or think that your analysis is correct beyond any doubts, or this is the impression I have. You have probably the same impression about me. If it is so, I'm sorry. I really think that Hino could develop Yuuki's feelings and still make a Zeki ending, the fact is that this ending, as we both think, must be developed well, and not in some bunch of panels like this, to preserve the masterpiece.

Knightmare wrote:No, the plots have been sloppy and sluggish in the 2nd arc

Sloppy? Sluggish? Gosh. And what about Kaname memories and secrets? What about HW? But I think that in your POV all these are simple Hino's device to enhance suspance and take some time, so they have nothing to do with the correct plot.

Knightmare wrote:What I thought was interesting, is the comments from the characters that Yuuki belongs with Kaname, Kaname, Zero, Yuuki and Kaien have all said it

and Hino herself. "They belong together" is a sentence she wrote in the artbook I finally have in my hands!

Knightmare wrote:but Kaien has recognised that its much more complicated than that and I would say that he is the first to support Zero/Yuuki.

I may be with you, but Kaien knows also something more about Kaname's plan that must still be developed in this sloppy and sluggish 2nd arc so this is another proof that we may be very far from foreseeing the true ending and that (luckily) Hino wants to take her time for the plot to be developed, whatever is the development.

But as I wrote too much again and we're having an interesting debate also here, I would redirect you there so that you can give your contribution, if you wish. I know that, for you, our POV is somewhat absurde, but, well, if we put together all our absurdities, we might really understand something!

Thank you.

not really. its a pretty common trope after all. the girl just need to figure out what she truly wants and needs without the burden of outside issue clouding it, most of all, what makes her happy.

Knight, it's remarkable how the opposite fandom, makes up excuses for Hino when it's convenient...

I do not agree with your point, that might be the case or might not be, but I take the chance after your comment to say that after so many volumes, lines, quotes, pictures, promises, so much YUME that Hino created, if she takes the opposite course now, that's a heavy troll...

and it's a heavy troll because the "cheating" part was all deliberate...

because all these lines that you as zeki tend to ignore (fine ignore them, i am not trying to change any opinion here just state my own), either you or any you, see it or not, are in the script, they exist, i can place the manga pages...we are not talking expectations, we are talking pure development...
dillema
she goes from dilema to wanting to devour him all, ignoring Zero's drama to Kaname's arrival (how didn't zekis went crazy here, i am impressed)...from there pleading kaname to kill her, and finally setting out on her own to get the answers...

so through all of this course can you still support that

the girl just need to figure out what she truly wants and needs without the burden of outside issue clouding it, most of all, what makes her happy.

if Kaname did not make her happy why she jumps when seeing him? why does her inner self wants to devour him? what are these line there? to troll or to develop a story...because it can not be Null...the plot has progressed and i can turn back to dilemma chapter supporting that no progress took part since there? so what i was reading was Null? nothing?

that's a big troll, and i wont justify it, or i wont take that justification because apart from preferences, there is also common sense...

I know this wasn't directed to me but I wanted to say people on the other side have said some of the same things about Yume. It's always "Yuuki is infatuated with Kaname", "Yuuki is really in love with Zero", Yuuki's just with Kaname because she's lonely", "Yuuki cut her hair she mutually broke up with Kaname" *snortgiggles* Both sides have been wrong about a lot of things. So no one is always 100% right. Zeki might be right about Yuuki possibly being in love with Zero, but they are wrong about so many other things. And the story is not over yet. Yuuki still has not declare her undevoted love for Zero just that she wants to cherish the boy which is not new, she said in the past she wants to cherish Zero. So forgive me for wanting a love confessions from Yuuki that states she's "In love" with Zero.

yes that's interpretations all the above that you mentioned considering the opposite fandom...can we hear some clear facts that can balance the two ships?

if Hino had obviously created a heroine split in two, fine, i will accept it...saying my heart loves them both, wants them both where it stands? we are talking great imbalance here, blame it to Hino that until now progressed and fed Zeki very little, doing in my opinion more fanservice than real interaction...so why didn't she cultivated in there the same amount of weight that she did with yume?

that would be fair , crystal clear and both fandoms could have their sayings...right now whatever happens it's a troll either Yume or Zeki, that's it...zekis do have patient indeed...

I agree with you that Zeki is far from catching up to Yume...WAY too many love confessions for Yume...Zeki has a long way to go. That's precisely why this sudden kiss was like wtf and so disconnected and out of place.

the kiss does not follow a peak, a development, its out of the blue and more than this is given from Zero and not Yuuki (who should be more emotionally affected by having the flashbacks.) Now why all of the sudden and for what reason? Hino remains to explain that in any case.

@juliet, the fact is, if somebody reads this story and thinks Yuuki is a weak girl who simply can't decide what to do and who she loves the most, he/she can do it. If somebody thinks that all Yume's panels until now only refers to the desire of Yuuki for blood (only for Kaname's blood, that must be extremely delicious...) and fear to be alone, he/she can do it. The fact that makes me sad is: I always try to make doubts. And to be humble. I'm sorry if I wasn't in my previous posts and I really hope I didn't give @Knightmare the wrong impression.

Because there is another fact makes me sad and angry: nobody here wants to make anybody else change his/her mind, truly. But to follow one's mind, to follow one's idea of "what a true relationship is supposed to be", well, some is disposed to see a heroine loose her dignity by changing her mind at once, and to see Hino "hurry" to make out a good story from something that, clearly, has been "boring and non sense" until now. So, the plot should go towards someone's opinions and expectations, even if this means to damage the plot itself, or to ignore how the plot was developed until now. Or that a plot can be filled with a lot of non sense and useless episodes to confuse the audience and kill the time until the true will of the characters magically comes out - and this will can obviously be totally disconnected from the previous episodes due to "how usually this kind of stories go". Following this logic, nobody will never write something really different and original. How sad.

Butterflywingsx wrote: Yuuki's feelings are true that she wants to cherish Zero. That's nice, thing is Yuuki said the same thing in the past that she wants to cherish Zero. So...where is the love confession? There's no, I'm in love with Zero or I've always been in love with Zero like when she confessed she's always been in love with her brother. She loves Zero, I never doubted that, It's whether Yuuki is "in love" with Zero that's doubtful.

Even if she likes Zero...like is not equivalent to love. Hino would have to show her growing to love Zero as a man and not a boy.

Co-sign!
And what strikes me also is the word “boy” … this word automatically shifts the gravity of Yuuki’s feelings to the sibling/friendly zone rather to the love for a lover or potential lover if you ask me lol

And then there's the fact that Yuuki is still thirsty. Some Zekis gloated that Yuuki didn't need blood after taking Zero's blood, but we learned in this ch 87 that Yuuki was hidden the fact that she needed blood. Oh so, all those times Yuuki kept drinking a lot of Kaname's blood was not a bad thing but in fact normal. *gasp* I swear Hino likes to troll. Why make the blood thing a big deal only to say in the end once you are sated you always want the blood of that person? That explains Yuuki wanting to devour Kaname, and Zero wanting to devour Yuuki.

In that regards, Kaname's blood sated Yuuki. And Yuuki's blood sated Zero. otherwise. Yuuki only took a little of Zero's blood and she said afterwards she never wanted blood from him. I think this chapter was pretty interesting...aside from being random.

Hahaha … Butterfly you are on the spot! This twisted notion that Yuuki was FINALLY sated from Zero shattered magnificently in this chapter hahaha (not that I ever had found any sense on that anyway )

And if I may add we learnt and something else … that Yuuki was satisfied from Kaname’s blood thus and when she deprived from it, was so difficult for her >>

I now understand how painful it can be to refrain from taking blood once you’ve experienced what it feels like to satisfy yourself with it.

Or maybe we can stretch it further and say that Yuuki faced difficulties to control her hunger only when she was deprived from the satisfaction that Kaname’s blood was given her whereas now she can replace Zero’s blood with tablets
Or that Zero is quenched from Sara’s blood thus and he was able to resist to Yuuki’s offer
I’m kidding hahaha

Even if you argue that she likes Zero I can counter she may "like" Zero but she's "In love" with Kaname. Yuuki hasn't stated anyway that she fell out of love with Kaname, Zekis are the ones who assumes that she has. In chapter 87, even she's saying she wants to cherish Zero and then comes the "But I..." which is negative for Zeki. There's shouldn't be a but. When Yuuki wanted to properly start over with Kaname there was no but..so why must there be a but where Zero is concern? Her feelings are real (we already knew this) Kaname couldn't have manipulated Yuuki to care for Zero, she did so of her own free will, out of kindness. Question is: What's stopping Yuuki from cherishing the boy she always wanted to cherish?

The answer I can think of, is, there was always Kaname. Kaname who Yuuki has always been "in love" with, both as a human and as a Pureblood. She wants to cherish Zero but there's her love for Kaname is how I interpret it.

Simply love it!!!! <333

@Duskola very well said! \0/
And I co-sign especially this passage >>

And I can't understand how somebody can be satisfied, to see the story end like he/she wants by ruining the quality of the whole plot, and the talent and reputation of a true artist. This is the thing that would make me sad if something like this is really happening. I don't care about the ending, I want to see a masterpiece. That's all.

I guess some fans are only interested to win the “bet” >> with whom Yuuki will end up with disregarding everything else … well this is very childish IMO.

Personally I do not want a Yume end no matter what! And certainly I do not want a frivolous girl or a two-timing girl for my fave chara … I treasure Kaname much more than this!

---

Well aside for the LT discussion –which as always every part of the fandom will interpret it according to its beliefs, expectations or even wishful thinking… something that at least proves that are many things that it should be cleared up whereas if we had a real turning point that should be acknowledged from all- I want to focus on the rest of the plot since I have a few queries lol

1. What Yuuki did in the mansion? What was the purpose of her visit there since we didn’t see anything? Was it only to check how much dust had accumulated; or to let us know Aido-dono’s skills AND as a battler???
I suppose no … so what did she take from upstairs and more importantly why she didn’t reveal what she did to Zero? Why she dodged or diverted the conversation?
Does this imply that she has an agenda that doesn’t reveal to Zero?

2. Something else that caught my attention was the scene with Rima … if you noticed Hino emphasizes that Rima didn’t arrive alone but she was escorted from 3 hooded persons … any bet on who they might be?
My mind gone that the one must be Shiki –not a wild guess since wherever Rima is, Shiki is there too, and vice versa- and as for the rest… hmm… I’m between, Takuma, Aido and Maria… Ruka and Kain not so much since I suppose Ruka hasn’t yet totally recovered.

3. Why Kaname “ate” the bait and appeared? I mean what is there that he couldn’t resist? The “romantic” atmosphere between Yuuki and Zero barely can convince me since Kaname made it crystal clear that he abandoned Yuuki and made whatever he could to push her away in order to proceed with his plan. So, why now to appear? If Yuuki was indeed moving on her life with Zero; wouldn’t that serve his plan perfectly? >>

Butterflywingsx wrote: When Kaname made the decision to let Yuuki go he must have accepted the possibility that Yuuki could be with another man…

Exactly!

If this party is a set-up, a trap organized from Isaya and Yuuki this means that it’s not part of Kaname’s plan. So why he didn’t overlook it and proceed according to his own plan which I presume was irrelevant with this party?

Could be that this move serves his interests as well; or the opposite? And if it is the later; could this trap lurking some threats for Yuuki? I got that idea from Isaya’s words that this is a dangerous trap.
Additionally … how can they trap Kaname? As we saw it was impossible to catch him previously at the HA with the help of so many hunters and anti-vampire traps. So what this dangerous trap could be??? I’m very, very curious on that lol
Hence my hunch is that the real reason that Kaname appeared there has something to do with the nature of this trap but I could be totally wrong here.

4. Something else that I have observed in the last chapters, is the repetition of Aido-dono’s depictions … seems like a key point thus I wonder why? If this killing is as it seems to be –i.e. Kaname killed him among the other PB’s- why so much emphasis?
I mean what difference does it make on the established impression –at least from a part of the fandom- about Kaname and his doings; to blackening him more by revealing a cruel or indifferent reason behind it? What’s the point?
And don’t get me wrong … ofc we should know why he was killed and Hanabusa’s query and pain ain’t meaningless but this doesn’t justify the gravity that Hino seems to put NOW again on this death.
Or the unraveling of this death could hide surprises??? (can’t help it but to think that this masquerade ball is a great set up to be hidden many things and faces under the masks and hoods which can be revealed on the right moment lol)

@juliet, the fact is, if somebody reads this story and thinks Yuuki is a weak girl who simply can't decide what to do and who she loves the most, he/she can do it.

If Hino had demonstrated this as you say it above i would not go against but this is not what Hino does, if she did that then the two ships would have equally been developed until now, exactly to show the difficulty of the situation. And there is nothing wrong with that as I said and to Knightmare, fine if that was the story all about...and to make it more clear...

and if in the next chapter it becomes obvious that this kiss was a fake one, you may understand better what i am talking about; yes Hino did not want to betray her script, but in this way by trolling she is discouranging readers, playing with their expectations, If this happens for once Zekis IMO, will have a right to bark about...because she deliberately troll them.

If not, as yume we have been trolled, in the same sense and logic in the past. So this is the writer's way to develop a story and not the characters weakness (that could have been expressed without trolling with respect to both fandoms), I am against such practices and this is what i was trying to say. Not sure how it sounded.

@juliet: What I wanted to say, is that we can repeat any of those Yume panels no matter how many times, but if somebody sees those panels in a different way, there's no way you can make him/her see differently - for them, Yuuki chose Kaname not to be alone and because he has a beauty face and a good tasting blood, that's all. And if you try and repeat the exact sentences, they will say that there is a context for them and that they simply can have their own interpretation of them, while we have ours - like if somebody of us had truly the will to change their mind. What exasperates me, is that there will never be a shared POV. That is, I'm the one who is disposed to accept a well developed Zeki ending, and I keep repeating it, but whenever I point out Yume - well, here is an explosion of "I have my own interpretation, I saw the story different from the beginning" and so on. I can't explain this defensive position at all - because behind this, there's not a respect of the opposite POV, there is something like "Oh, what about YOU being wrong from the beginning? :ironic grin:". It is kindly and well said, but this is the sense behind. And this is also a way to cut every kind of shared view: I have my POV, you have yours, that's it.

That is, I'm disposed to accept Yuuki loves Zero, but they are not disposed to accept Yuuki have ever loved Kaname - or will love him in the future. Why?

@nina: wonderful post, now I must hurry up and work (if I want to come back home later ), but I'll reply in details this evening!!!!

we can't deny at all that this has become vampire diaries.
i thought that hino was not some cheap mangaka who would drag the story in unnecessary way just to get some money.but guess money is very important.i mean seriously,in one chapter you are showing maria and zero and yuuki all good with them,in next her belonging to kaname and boom in next chapter oh zero my feelings were genuine and blah.oooof....what is this?if she wanted to do it then she should have done it before not at a time where there are more imp things.
now i just want yuuki to get punished,she should end up with noone.not at all.she deserves to stay alone.

zero and yuuki showed their peak of cheapness in this chapter.

zero kissing someone else fiancee and yuuki cheating on him.
superb,hino are they your idol hero and heroine?
wow what a good example coming from your evil mind.(i wanted to use a really bad word but..ah..0)



we yumes always said that their love for each other is unconditional.they will love each other no matter what.
now after this do you call yuuki a true lover and fiancee.

okay even if yume now end up together which is practically seems impossible,who knows she will do infidelity.


to be frank,yuuki was kristen stewart of this chapter.

@Duskola and Nina

I hope you girls can forgive me for all those ugly typos in my previous post, lol.

Duskola wrote:Oh, thank you, I was starting to think I've been reading a totally different kind of story until now, or that I haven't understood anything for 86 chapters just joking ;)

Oh I assure you, you weren't reading a totally different kind of story. For 86 chapters, Yuuki had friend zoned Zero and never showed any romantic interest towards Zero. So this sudden kiss, is totally random that's why this chapter feels disconnected and makes little sense. Unless, Yuuki just got caught up in the moment but wouldn't she at the very least look fluttered? Why the calm look on her face when she see Kaname? And the, "But I..." at the end?

Even Zekis who I've asked in other forums couldn't reply to my question, what is Zero to Yuuki? Now, I'm sure they will say: well, Zero is someone Yuuki wants to cherish and she likes him romantically.

Yuuki could very well want to cherish her parents, her friends, her precious time with Kaname, etc. What makes Yuuki's statement special? She wants to cherish the boy...and well, does she want to love the boy? Be with the boy the way she claims she wants to be with Kaname? Does she want to fall to the deepest depths with the boy and be tainted by the boy?..etc.

Isn't this chapter still very vague? My feelings for him are real...I want to cherish this boy? Wouldn't it be clearer for Yuuki to say..I love him, and want to cherish him? Those are my true feelings without the But I...? And as Nina pointed out in one of her post, why wasn't their kiss included in her flashback right before the kiss?

But I..what? Can't cherish the boy becoz I'm a Pureblood and he's a Hunter? Can't cherish the boy becoz I still belong to Kaname even after I mutually broke up with him? Or can't cherish the boy becoz I love Kaname?

I've interpret it as the latter becoz Yuuki said But I...when she took off the mask to look at Kaname. So Kaname must be the reason why she can't cherish the boy. There's also the fact that Yuuki have said before she wants to cherish Zero. So is this a love confession? Yuuki had no problem saying she's "in love" with Kaname. Why is it so hard for her to just out and say she's in love with Zero? Or is it that Yuuki never thought of Zero in that way, but always loved and cared for him in her own way..wanting to cherish him?

But Zekis will be happy with anything, since they never really got any love confession from Yuuki to Zero. So they will see Yuuki wanting to cherish Zero as the ultimate love confession.

lucykaede wrote:zero kissing someone else fiancee and yuuki cheating on him.
superb,hino are they your idol hero and heroine?
wow what a good example coming from your evil mind.(i wanted to use a really bad word but..ah..0)

Exactly. Zero said in the previous chapter that Yuuki is Kaname's fiance, so why is he kissing someone else's fiancee? Kaname and Yuuki are separated and he set Yuuki free so I always thought it was the perfect time for Yuuki to explore what feelings she had for Zero but none of that happened...and then in Ch 86 she declares she belongs to Kaname and Zero said "Yes, you are his fiancee"...so you can imagine why Yumes went wtf?! with this chapter..it's so random and unlike Yuuki to be kissing in the middle of a ballroom full of ppl who will surely recognize her.

If Yuuki still think herself Kaname's fiancee as she had said in the previous chapter then this would make her look like a cheater. And since Zekis are so sure Yuuki cares what society thinks that's why she never thought of Zero romantically *snorts* then why is she kissing Zero in a place full of vampires where everyone can see her cheating on her fiancee? O___O

One must wonder...what the hell is going on? Zekis can be happy with the kiss (I don't blame them finally something when they got nothing, thus far)...Though, I have a feeling things are not as they seem..and one side will be very disappointed in the end.

Hi girls vampire knight fans! Sorry only near at the new chapter I can write something on this beautiful forum! Oh Man, I saw the raws but not the translation I wanna wait my mothertongue version for this amazing chapter! I'm so excited, Hino Matsuri surprised me and I think also all of you! Is that really a Zeki kiss?? x3 Oh man,...I believed that it will never happen! xD

nina wrote:
Co-sign!  
And what strikes me also is the word “boy”... this word automatically shifts the gravity of Yuuki’s feelings to the sibling/friendly zone rather to the love for a lover or potential lover if you ask me lol 

I didn't want to mention this because we got some raw translations here – and because I would have been misunderstood as one who doesn't “contextualize” - but if the original word is truly “boy”, yes, this seemed strange to me, too. Not only for the (virtual) distance this word puts between them, but also for the fact that Zero is not a “boy”. I mean, he's older than Yuuki. They are almost the same age. You refer to a “boy” if you perceive this “boy” to be younger, if you consider him as someone so fragile to be protected (“cherished”) and this concept goes together well with the memories Yuuki recalls.

I won't waste my time again with the satisfaction theory, because I've just read something totally new – that Yuuki chose Kaname because she wanted his tasteful blood, but this doesn't mean she was in love with him, this is only a normal instinct for a vampire. So, as everyone seems to interpret this theory as he wishes, I think we're simply trying to put the sea in a teaspoon.

nina wrote:
I guess some fans are only interested to win the “bet” >> with whom Yuuki will end up with disregarding everything else … well this is very childish IMO. 

Personally I do not want a Yume end no matter what! And certainly I do not want a frivolous girl or a two-timing girl for my fave chara... I treasure Kaname much more than this! 

Oh yeeeeees , and after reading “the plot is not the coexistence or anything else, but only the three of them”, and “Kaname is only there tho lead the plot” like a kind of deus ex machina, I can perfectly understand all your past years of frustration

So... may we debate about the actual plot?

nina wrote:
1. What Yuuki did in the mansion? What was the purpose of her visit there since we didn’t see anything? Was it only to check how much dust had accumulated; or to let us know Aido-dono’s skills AND as a battler???  
I suppose no... so what did she take from upstairs and more importantly why she didn’t reveal what she did to Zero? Why she dodged or diverted the conversation? 
Does this imply that she has an agenda that doesn’t reveal to Zero? 

Very good question, I was thinking about this, too (strange, isn't it?? ). Because at first I was astonished and startled by the fact that the stage at the mansion seemed to result as a useless chapter. But Hino has never written useless chapters until now and (I hope) she never will. So, what was Yuuki's purpose?
I believe that she DOES have an agenda that she doesn't reveal to Zero.
Another thing that made me angry about chapter 87 was that the plot lately developed Yuuki in a peculiar way. I keep having the sensation (and – I have to underline this – this is my own opinion) that she started to understand something (maybe to remember something) both about her role and Kaname's intention. As her eyes, her bearing and her behavior are full of awareness. She's not asking “why” anymore, or showing her suffering. I think she took some important decision – and I sense that this decision involves her own life. Obviously, she can't tell Zero something like this. That's why an apparently loss of time may hide something far more important.

nina wrote:2. Something else that caught my attention was the scene with Rima... if you noticed Hino emphasizes that Rima didn’t arrive alone but she was escorted from 3 hooded persons... any bet on who they might be? 

Yes, Shiki could definitely be one of them. I guess Aido can be another, because we saw him pondering about blood tablets some chapters ago, and that argument is still pending. Plus, he's the one who wants to know the truth about his father's supposed death, and I think this is a very good reason to be there at that moment. I really can't – or don't want - to guess who the others may be.

And here's the most infamous question:

nina wrote:
3. Why Kaname “ate” the bait and appeared? I mean what is there that he couldn’t resist? The “romantic” atmosphere between Yuuki and Zero barely can convince me since Kaname made it crystal clear that he abandoned Yuuki and made whatever he could to push her away in order to proceed with his plan. So, why now to appear? If Yuuki was indeed moving on her life with Zero; wouldn’t that serve his plan perfectly?
If this party is a set-up, a trap organized from Isaya and Yuuki this means that it’s not part of Kaname’s plan. So why he didn’t overlook it and proceed according to his own plan which I presume was irrelevant with this party? 
Could be that this move serves his interests as well; or the opposite? 
Additionally... how can they trap Kaname? As we saw it was impossible to catch him previously at the HA with the help of so many hunters and anti-vampire traps. So what this dangerous trap could be??? I’m very, very curious on that lol 

That's another apparently silly development (I can hear the “Oh, well, he's there so that Hino can hurry and set up the final battle, as it happens in this kind of story” arguments). At first, when I saw him, I wanted to go inside the panel and say “Are you stupid or what? O_O”. But as you say, I think there's more than meets the eye. You are right,Kaname is disposed to let Yuuki free, and he knows this could mean for her to be with another man. So, I don't think he's there (only) to show us his jealousy (that he obviously has). I think he can be there or because Isaya's plan helps him either because it's an obstacle.
At first I thought that he secretly cooperated with Isaya in some way. But Isaya talks about a trap. And you gave a good question here: what could be a trap for Kaname?

Oh, well. If we put together some pieces – Yuuki saying goodbye to Yori, Yuuki's behavior and awareness, Zeki “kiss” (the other true kiss they had was a goodbye kiss...) - all this makes me think Yuuki is now extremely resolute and she wants to save both Kaname and the PB or die in the intent. What can be a trap for Kaname? Let's suppose his plan is the only way to protect Yuuki from something. What would he do, if he had to choose between his plan and Yuuki's death? What if Yuuki is trying to steal his “weapon” (Zero)? What if the trap is dangerous because this could truly lead to her death, and the death of everyone involved ( → that's why she feels guilty, to have Zero there)?

nina wrote:
4. Something else that I have observed in the last chapters, is the repetition of Aido-dono’s depictions … seems like a key point thus I wonder why? If this killing is as it seems to be –i.e. Kaname killed him among the other PB’s- why so much emphasis? 
I mean what difference does it make on the established impression –at least from a part of the fandom- about Kaname and his doings; to blackening him more by revealing a cruel or indifferent reason behind it? What’s the point?
And don’t get me wrong … ofc we should know why he was killed and Hanabusa’s query and pain ain’t meaningless but this doesn’t justify the gravity that Hino seems to put NOW again on this death. 
Or the unraveling of this death could hide surprises??

Lol I'm starting to think that there will SURELY be a surprise that is directly proportional to how much these last two chapters seem to be totally a mess! But I'm with you nina, and now I start viewing a different shade of this masquerade: what if there is somebofy really unexpected among them?

[quote=”juliet”]If not, as yume we have been trolled, in the same sense and logic in the past. So this is the writer's way to develop a story and not the characters weakness (that could have been expressed without trolling with respect to both fandoms), I am against such practices and this is what i was trying to say. Not sure how it sounded.[/quote]

Yes, I had perfectly understood before, and as you say being trolled for 86 chapters is far more serious than being trolled for... how many panels involved Zeki until now? I mean, we can't simply think that a writer creates so many chapters to take time, to deliberately troll or because she doesn't know how to fill the pages between the beginning of the story and the end- I am against such practices, too, because we are full of mainstream books that have no plot at all but simply fill pages to make money, by using some cheap trick like this. BUT they have a plot that is far more simple and predictable than this. The sad thing is, as I said, that many expects VK to be as predictable as cheap mainstream books, like nobody could really write an original, wonderful story without following some cliché. So, if the story doesn't seem to follow the usual cliché, they find it boring, they think the main character can simply act as she had some kind of bipolar disorder, and so on. Well, but this – as always – is my POV so I hope nobody is gonna feel hurt.

ButterflyWingsX wrote:
@Duskola and Nina

I hope you girls can forgive me for all those ugly typos in my previous post, lol. 

You're welcome!!!

ButterflyWingsX wrote:
Oh I assure you, you weren't reading a totally different kind of story. For 86 chapters, Yuuki had friend zoned Zero and never showed any romantic interest towards Zero. So this sudden kiss, is totally random that's why this chapter feels disconnected and makes little sense. Unless, Yuuki just got caught up in the moment but wouldn't she at the very least look fluttered? Why the calm look on her face when she see Kaname? And the, "But I..." at the end?

Exactly: she reacts like she was expecting this, not as she was being surprised while cheating. With the same awareness that I sensed in the last chapters. And the “But I...”, as I said before, is the proof that the balance is the same as always. Not that there won't be any kind of unexpected development, simply, for now, it's the same.

ButterflyWingsX wrote:
But I..what? Can't cherish the boy becoz I'm a Pureblood and he's a Hunter? Can't cherish the boy becoz I still belong to Kaname even after I mutually broke up with him? Or can't cherish the boy becoz I love Kaname?

Let me add: I can't cherish the boy because I involved him in something extremely dangerous and maybe we are both going to die?

ButterflyWingsX wrote:
Yuuki had no problem saying she's "in love" with Kaname. Why is it so hard for her to just out and say she's in love with Zero?
But Zekis will be happy with anything, since they never really got any love confession from Yuuki to Zero. So they will see Yuuki wanting to cherish Zero as the ultimate love confession. 

But it's obvious, because Yuuki says she love someone only when she doesn't truly love, to persuade herself and not to be alone so, if she never said Zero some kind of “love” word, it must be because she truly loves him. That's her logic. (Just joking ).

ButterflyWingsX wrote:
If Yuuki still think herself Kaname's fiancee as she had said in the previous chapter then this would make her look like a cheater. And since Zekis are so sure Yuuki cares what society thinks that's why she never thought of Zero romantically *snorts* then why is she kissing Zero in a place full of vampires where everyone can see her cheating on her fiancee? O___O

Gooooood point here!!!!

ButterflyWingsX wrote:
One must wonder...what the hell is going on? Zekis can be happy with the kiss (I don't blame them finally something when they got nothing, thus far)...Though, I have a feeling things are not as they seem..and one side will be very disappointed in the end.

Yes, and I'm ready to be disappointed: I'm aware that all of us can be completely wrong and the story can develop in something totally unexpected. Are they ready to accept the story may not go as they want?

I mean, truly: why Hino should write the story to please one side or another, or to respect some "common rules"?

nina wrote:
Co-sign!  
And what strikes me also is the word “boy”... this word automatically shifts the gravity of Yuuki’s feelings to the sibling/friendly zone rather to the love for a lover or potential lover if you ask me lol 

I didn't want to mention this because we got some raw translations here – and because I would have been misunderstood as one who doesn't “contextualize” - but if the original word is truly “boy”, yes, this seemed strange to me, too. Not only for the (virtual) distance this word puts between them, but also for the fact that Zero is not a “boy”. I mean, he's older than Yuuki. They are almost the same age. You refer to a “boy” if you perceive this “boy” to be younger, if you consider him as someone so fragile to be protected (“cherished”) and this concept goes together well with the memories Yuuki recalls.

I won't waste my time again with the satisfaction theory, because I've just read something totally new – that Yuuki chose Kaname because she wanted his tasteful blood, but this doesn't mean she was in love with him, this is only a normal instinct for a vampire. So, as everyone seems to interpret this theory as he wishes, I think we're simply trying to put the sea in a teaspoon.

nina wrote:
I guess some fans are only interested to win the “bet” >> with whom Yuuki will end up with disregarding everything else … well this is very childish IMO. 

Personally I do not want a Yume end no matter what! And certainly I do not want a frivolous girl or a two-timing girl for my fave chara... I treasure Kaname much more than this! 

Oh yeeeeees , and after reading “the plot is not the coexistence or anything else, but only the three of them”, and “Kaname is only there tho lead the plot” like a kind of deus ex machina, I can perfectly understand all your past years of frustration

So... may we debate about the actual plot?

nina wrote:
1. What Yuuki did in the mansion? What was the purpose of her visit there since we didn’t see anything? Was it only to check how much dust had accumulated; or to let us know Aido-dono’s skills AND as a battler???  
I suppose no... so what did she take from upstairs and more importantly why she didn’t reveal what she did to Zero? Why she dodged or diverted the conversation? 
Does this imply that she has an agenda that doesn’t reveal to Zero? 

Very good question, I was thinking about this, too (strange, isn't it?? ). Because at first I was astonished and startled by the fact that the stage at the mansion seemed to result as a useless chapter. But Hino has never written useless chapters until now and (I hope) she never will. So, what was Yuuki's purpose?
I believe that she DOES have an agenda that she doesn't reveal to Zero.
Another thing that made me angry about chapter 87 was that the plot lately developed Yuuki in a peculiar way. I keep having the sensation (and – I have to underline this – this is my own opinion) that she started to understand something (maybe to remember something) both about her role and Kaname's intention. As her eyes, her bearing and her behavior are full of awareness. She's not asking “why” anymore, or showing her suffering. I think she took some important decision – and I sense that this decision involves her own life. Obviously, she can't tell Zero something like this. That's why an apparently loss of time may hide something far more important.

nina wrote:2. Something else that caught my attention was the scene with Rima... if you noticed Hino emphasizes that Rima didn’t arrive alone but she was escorted from 3 hooded persons... any bet on who they might be? 

Yes, Shiki could definitely be one of them. I guess Aido can be another, because we saw him pondering about blood tablets some chapters ago, and that argument is still pending. Plus, he's the one who wants to know the truth about his father's supposed death, and I think this is a very good reason to be there at that moment. I really can't – or don't want - to guess who the others may be.

And here's the most infamous question:

nina wrote:
3. Why Kaname “ate” the bait and appeared? I mean what is there that he couldn’t resist? The “romantic” atmosphere between Yuuki and Zero barely can convince me since Kaname made it crystal clear that he abandoned Yuuki and made whatever he could to push her away in order to proceed with his plan. So, why now to appear? If Yuuki was indeed moving on her life with Zero; wouldn’t that serve his plan perfectly?
If this party is a set-up, a trap organized from Isaya and Yuuki this means that it’s not part of Kaname’s plan. So why he didn’t overlook it and proceed according to his own plan which I presume was irrelevant with this party? 
Could be that this move serves his interests as well; or the opposite? 
Additionally... how can they trap Kaname? As we saw it was impossible to catch him previously at the HA with the help of so many hunters and anti-vampire traps. So what this dangerous trap could be??? I’m very, very curious on that lol 

That's another apparently silly development (I can hear the “Oh, well, he's there so that Hino can hurry and set up the final battle, as it happens in this kind of story” arguments). At first, when I saw him, I wanted to go inside the panel and say “Are you stupid or what? O_O”. But as you say, I think there's more than meets the eye. You are right,Kaname is disposed to let Yuuki free, and he knows this could mean for her to be with another man. So, I don't think he's there (only) to show us his jealousy (that he obviously has). I think he can be there or because Isaya's plan helps him either because it's an obstacle.
At first I thought that he secretly cooperated with Isaya in some way. But Isaya talks about a trap. And you gave a good question here: what could be a trap for Kaname?

Oh, well. If we put together some pieces – Yuuki saying goodbye to Yori, Yuuki's behavior and awareness, Zeki “kiss” (the other true kiss they had was a goodbye kiss...) - all this makes me think Yuuki is now extremely resolute and she wants to save both Kaname and the PB or die in the intent. What can be a trap for Kaname? Let's suppose his plan is the only way to protect Yuuki from something. What would he do, if he had to choose between his plan and Yuuki's death? What if Yuuki is trying to steal his “weapon” (Zero)? What if the trap is dangerous because this could truly lead to her death, and the death of everyone involved ( → that's why she feels guilty, to have Zero there)?

nina wrote:
4. Something else that I have observed in the last chapters, is the repetition of Aido-dono’s depictions … seems like a key point thus I wonder why? If this killing is as it seems to be –i.e. Kaname killed him among the other PB’s- why so much emphasis? 
I mean what difference does it make on the established impression –at least from a part of the fandom- about Kaname and his doings; to blackening him more by revealing a cruel or indifferent reason behind it? What’s the point?
And don’t get me wrong … ofc we should know why he was killed and Hanabusa’s query and pain ain’t meaningless but this doesn’t justify the gravity that Hino seems to put NOW again on this death. 
Or the unraveling of this death could hide surprises??

Lol I'm starting to think that there will SURELY be a surprise that is directly proportional to how much these last two chapters seem to be totally a mess! But I'm with you nina, and now I start viewing a different shade of this masquerade: what if there is somebody really unexpected among them?

juliet wrote:If not, as yume we have been trolled, in the same sense and logic in the past. So this is the writer's way to develop a story and not the characters weakness (that could have been expressed without trolling with respect to both fandoms), I am against such practices and this is what i was trying to say. Not sure how it sounded.

Yes, I had perfectly understood before, and as you say being trolled for 86 chapters is far more serious than being trolled for... how many panels involved Zeki until now? I mean, we can't simply think that a writer creates so many chapters to take time, to deliberately troll or because she doesn't know how to fill the pages between the beginning of the story and the end- I am against such practices, too, because we are full of mainstream books that have no plot at all but simply fill pages to make money, by using some cheap trick like this. BUT they have a plot that is far more simple and predictable than this. The sad thing is, as I said, that many expects VK to be as predictable as cheap mainstream books, like nobody could really write an original, wonderful story without following some cliché. So, if the story doesn't seem to follow the usual cliché, they find it boring, they think the main character can simply act as she had some kind of bipolar disorder, and so on. Well, but this – as always – is my POV so I hope nobody is gonna feel hurt.

ButterflyWingsX wrote:
@Duskola and Nina

I hope you girls can forgive me for all those ugly typos in my previous post, lol. 

You're welcome!!!

ButterflyWingsX wrote:
Oh I assure you, you weren't reading a totally different kind of story. For 86 chapters, Yuuki had friend zoned Zero and never showed any romantic interest towards Zero. So this sudden kiss, is totally random that's why this chapter feels disconnected and makes little sense. Unless, Yuuki just got caught up in the moment but wouldn't she at the very least look fluttered? Why the calm look on her face when she see Kaname? And the, "But I..." at the end?

Exactly: she reacts like she was expecting this, not as she was being surprised while cheating. With the same awareness that I sensed in the last chapters. And the “But I...”, as I said before, is the proof that the balance is the same as always. Not that there won't be any kind of unexpected development, simply, for now, it's the same.

ButterflyWingsX wrote:
But I..what? Can't cherish the boy becoz I'm a Pureblood and he's a Hunter? Can't cherish the boy becoz I still belong to Kaname even after I mutually broke up with him? Or can't cherish the boy becoz I love Kaname?

Let me add: I can't cherish the boy because I involved him in something extremely dangerous and maybe we are both going to die?

ButterflyWingsX wrote:
Yuuki had no problem saying she's "in love" with Kaname. Why is it so hard for her to just out and say she's in love with Zero?
But Zekis will be happy with anything, since they never really got any love confession from Yuuki to Zero. So they will see Yuuki wanting to cherish Zero as the ultimate love confession. 

But it's obvious, because Yuuki says she love someone only when she doesn't truly love, to persuade herself and not to be alone so, if she never said Zero some kind of “love” word, it must be because she truly loves him. That's her logic. (Just joking ).

ButterflyWingsX wrote:
If Yuuki still think herself Kaname's fiancee as she had said in the previous chapter then this would make her look like a cheater. And since Zekis are so sure Yuuki cares what society thinks that's why she never thought of Zero romantically *snorts* then why is she kissing Zero in a place full of vampires where everyone can see her cheating on her fiancee? O___O

Gooooood point here!!!!

ButterflyWingsX wrote:
One must wonder...what the hell is going on? Zekis can be happy with the kiss (I don't blame them finally something when they got nothing, thus far)...Though, I have a feeling things are not as they seem..and one side will be very disappointed in the end.

Yes, and I'm ready to be disappointed: I'm aware that all of us can be completely wrong and the story can develop in something totally unexpected. Are they ready to accept the story may not go as they want?

I mean, truly: why Hino should write the story to please one side or another, or to respect some "common rules"?

ButterflyWingsX wrote:
One must wonder...what the hell is going on? Zekis can be happy with the kiss (I don't blame them finally something when they got nothing, thus far)...Though, I have a feeling things are not as they seem..and one side will be very disappointed in the end.

Yes, and I'm ready to be disappointed: I'm aware that all of us can be completely wrong and the story can develop in something totally unexpected. Are they ready to accept the story may not go as they want?

I mean, truly: why Hino should write the story to please one side or another, or to respect some "common rules"?

or trolled...one side is trolled here heavily

of course as Duscola mentioned the weight lingers on Yume side, the more developed so far, but mainly i have been bored and disgusted with trolling for both sides...

I can not believe that all these where forced into as a script necessity...

juliet wrote:or trolled...one side is trolled here heavily

Agreed. Hino does like to troll...but it's the first time Yuuki acted so OOC for me. At one point, I was like what's gotten into her? I was confused why she suddenly offered Zero her blood when she said before she respected him too much to go to him to give him blood. And suddenly, in this chapter she's jumping Zero, licking blood off of Zero's face and kissing him when the previous chapter she told him she belong to Kaname. O___O

It's like Yuuki was not herself, I will not defend her character if she continues to act like a fickle girl but then I wondered at the end of the chapter why she looked so calm when Kaname appeared? I really can't wait for Ch 88...I need answers and Hino will probably continue to troll.

ButterfyWingX wrote:I need answers and Hino will probably continue to troll.

@juliet & ButterfyWingX:
I don't like this kind of trolling, too, but let's wait next chapters before we can judge. Maybe one side would be very disappointed, maybe BOTH sides would be very disappointed, who knows?

I think Hino is sad because VK is going to end and she wants to spend some time with her characters for a bit - well, she knows how it's going to end and she's having fun. Why should she care about what fans think, or who is going to be disappointed? If she doesn't damage the plot, she can do whatever she wants. IF.
Well, if I was in her shoes, I would simply write what I want. Provided that it's consistent: this is the only requirement. I wouldn't ruin the story just to have some fun. For now, I'm confident: she has always been consistent in the plot. Let's see.

Duskola wrote:Exactly: she reacts like she was expecting this, not as she was being surprised while cheating. With the same awareness that I sensed in the last chapters. And the “But I...”, as I said before, is the proof that the balance is the same as always. Not that there won't be any kind of unexpected development, simply, for now, it's the same.

It's the same, or Yuuki suddenly changed and she doesn't care if she looks like a cheater and wants to go back and forth between both Kaname and Zero...which I hope is not the case. Yuuki never acted like that before so why the sudden change? Something doesn't add up..or things are not as they seem or Hino is just trolling. Or it could very well be that Hino is going to start making Yuuki show romantic interest in Zero so that Kaname can realize that he's losing Yuuki and maybe stop with his path to self destruction and fight for Yuuki to win her back and thus, Zero would be a plot device and it would explain why Hino added that kiss scene and made Kaname appeared at that moment.

At some point Yuuki had to address her feelings for Zero, so that...we the readers could be clear what she feels for him. But that could have been done in a way to not make Yuuki look like a two timing frickle girl..and while keeping her in character. It was just so unlike her the way she acted in some parts of this chapter that it left me confused.

Duskola wrote:Let me add: I can't cherish the boy because I involved him in something extremely dangerous and maybe we are both going to die?

Or better yet: I can't cherish the boy becoz society wants me to belong to Kaname, I must do what society wants of me and not follow my heart...but I'll just kiss Zero in the middle of a ballroom where everyone can see a Hunter and a Pureblood kissing.

Oh yes, that makes a lot of sense!

Duskola wrote:But it's obvious, because Yuuki says she love someone only when she doesn't truly love, to persuade herself and not to be alone so, if she never said Zero some kind of “love” word, it must be because she truly loves him. That's her logic. (Just joking ).

That and, when Yuuki was human she only claim to love Kaname because she never really wanted to be with him. That's why she was sad when she became a vampire and said she hurt Zero because she never really wanted to be with Kaname but only told herself she did to avoid her real feelings for Zero. *snortsgiggles*

Duskola wrote:@juliet & ButterfyWingX:
I don't like this kind of trolling, too, but let's wait next chapters before we can judge. Maybe one side would be very disappointed, maybe BOTH sides would be very disappointed, who knows?

I think Hino is sad because VK is going to end and she wants to spend some time with her characters for a bit - well, she knows how it's going to end and she's having fun. Why should she care about what fans think, or who is going to be disappointed? If she doesn't damage the plot, she can do whatever she wants. IF.
Well, if I was in her shoes, I would simply write what I want. Provided that it's consistent: this is the only requirement. I wouldn't ruin the story just to have some fun. For now, I'm confident: she has always been consistent in the plot. Let's see.

Oh, I agree. It's Hino story she can do whatever she wants and she doesn't have to please anyone. We'll just have to wait and see what happens!

nina wrote:Co-sign!
And what strikes me also is the word “boy” … this word automatically shifts the gravity of Yuuki’s feelings to the sibling/friendly zone rather to the love for a lover or potential lover if you ask me lol

I thought I was the only one who thought it strange that she said boy..LMAO. Oh Yuuki, can't you see that Zero is a man, not a boy. *snortsgiggles* She wants to cherish the boy...does that mean Yuuki still sees Zero as the fragile boy she protected in the past?

nina wrote:Hahaha … Butterfly you are on the spot! This twisted notion that Yuuki was FINALLY sated from Zero shattered magnificently in this chapter hahaha (not that I ever had found any sense on that anyway )

And if I may add we learnt and something else … that Yuuki was satisfied from Kaname’s blood thus and when she deprived from it, was so difficult for her >>

I now understand how painful it can be to refrain from taking blood once you’ve experienced what it feels like to satisfy yourself with it.

Oh but some Zekis think that Yuuki was referring to Zero. Now that Zero has satisfy her she understand how painful it can be to refrain from taking Zero's blood. Right..that's why Yuuki's taking blood tablets when Zero's so near she can just drink from him and she's hidden this from Zero. And that explains why Yuuki only took a little of Zero's blood but she allowed Kaname to spoil her with his blood and has the same desire to devour Kaname as Zero has to devour her. Not to mention Yuuki had screamed Kaname's name when she was really thirsty and thinking of both Kaname and Zero.

I'm pretty sure Zekis won't think it's such a bad thing anymore to constantly want blood from the person that sates you if it pertains to Zero and Yuuki. It's only bad if it pertains to Kaname and Yuuki. LOL.

Agreed. Hino does like to troll...but it's the first time Yuuki acted so OOC for me. At one point, I was like what's gotten into her? I was confused why she suddenly offered Zero her blood when she said before she respected him too much to go to him to give him blood. And

suddenly, in this chapter she's jumping Zero, licking blood off of Zero's face and kissing him when the previous chapter she told him she belong to Kaname. O___O

It's like Yuuki was not herself, I will not defend her character if she continues to act like a fickle girl but then I wondered at the end of the chapter why she looked so calm when Kaname appeared? I really can't wait for Ch 88...I need answers and Hino will probably continue to troll.

probably a coward approach to both fandoms if you ask me...

then again as you say this chapter poses striking contradictions that should really bother, instead of exciting, i understand the first approach to the scenes to be enthusiastic from the zeki part...can they really put it all and justify such changes as you described just to a fickle girl?

once again i am astonished by the justification that the zeki's court uses to purify pure trolling attempts or to phrase this better with the low standards and tolerance.

Such low expectations endangers the consistency of the script and more than that does not hold back any gravity at all...

so what is left to believe? even in their case? If so.. then if Hino trolls to their direction, it will be something acceptable, justified also?

I need to analyze the chapter a little more .

For now I can say this :

I already told about the possibility of a false Zeki ending . Where people could believe Yume is lost and there is no way for saving their relationship . The time appears to be now .

1--If a real Zeki end is the solution after the kiss . The LT would break after chapter 88 . Meaning the story probably ends in about 5 more chapters or at volume 19 .

2--If the kiss was the way to prolong the LT a little more . Yume continues to be a contender . The plot could be at least 10 to 15 more chapters . Or volumes 20 to 21 .

Hino said the second arc was supposed to be longer than the first one . So I expect the second option being more logic to the plot progression .

Page 36

Yuuki: Why…

Page 38

Yuuki: Why did things end up like this? The boy I want to cherish…

Page 39

Yuuki: And my feelings for him are real…

Page 40

Yuuki: But I…

My concerns here are with the bolded parts . Because I already knew Yuuki's feelings for Zero are real . And that Yuuki cherish Zero as a boy . These were facts from almost the start of the story .

But Yuuki has never said she loves Zero as a man . This is the point to prove for breaking the LT and making a Zeki ending .

Has Yuuki already discovered her feelings for Zero has changed or not during the masquerade scene with Zero ?

Zeki's kiss lacked passion . None of the Yume ones were as bland as this one . People could call this Zeki kiss cute . But this kiss has less pics , details and emotion than any of Yuuki's previous kisses . Even the Zeki one from the first arc (the one - sided Zeki kiss ) .

There is the " but I ..." problem . Yuuki has doubts about how she sees Zero . if she continues to see Zero as only a boy or if she see him as a man . Has Yuuki made a choice after kissing Zero ? Or has she noticed Kaname continues to be the one who make her feel more passion ? Or that at last Yuuki could erradicate all the love feelings she has for Kaname ; to make Zero the only one in her heart ?

A possibility is the Zeki kiss has being used by Yuuki as a parameter to weight which guy she loves more : Zero or Kaname . And her " But I ... " reply could mean she can't take Kaname out of her life yet . That even when she considered loving Zero was the best choice she could do . After being abandon by Kaname . She can't drop loving Kaname as a man .

I believe the kiss isn't actually all that sudden, it has been leading up to it for a long time. Yukki noticed her feelings for zero long ago but not before Kaname noticed them. Kaname is amazing in the way he does not let anything slip past him. The only thing that was creating a barrier was yukki's and zeros beliefs about the other, zero believed that yukki could only love kaname and there was no room for him in her heart, yukki believed that she wasn't worthy to be with and that he would never accept her cause she is a PB. When Zero offered to dance with yukki which she believed would never happen that wall started to crumble if only a little bit and that's what cause the kiss.

Duskola wrote: but if the original word is truly “boy”, yes, this seemed strange to me, too. Not only for the (virtual) distance this word puts between them, but also for the fact that Zero is not a “boy”. I mean, he's older than Yuuki. They are almost the same age. You refer to a “boy” if you perceive this “boy” to be younger, if you consider him as someone so fragile to be protected (“cherished”) and this concept goes together well with the memories Yuuki recalls.

Exactly… I couldn’t have put it better Duskola! \0/
And if we combine this with her flashbacks of a Yuuki who always treated Zero as a sub-mother/sister i.e. as a figure who wanted to protect and heal this boy from his suffering then her characterization now “boy” indicates that Yuuki still sees Zero like she used to.
And as I said in another thread the recollection that would have given into Yuuki’s thoughts and actions romantic substance is the recollection of Zero’s real kiss to her from the 1st arc, but this flashback is missing. A girl who suddenly gotten into an erotic mood, who was expressing erotic signals, which one dance made her realize that she is in love (another absurd argument … one dance was enough; while 1,5 year of soul-searching was nothing! O.O … well Zero must be one hell of a dancer then ) then excuse me but the first thing that she should think about was the only romantic moment that had with this boy >> his love confession and his kiss!

I won't waste my time again with the satisfaction theory, because I've just read something totally new – that Yuuki chose Kaname because she wanted his tasteful blood, but this doesn't mean she was in love with him, this is only a normal instinct for a vampire. So, as everyone seems to interpret this theory as he wishes, I think we're simply trying to put the sea in a teaspoon.

*thud* … then according to this logic Zero doesn’t love Yuuki but only her tasteful blood, no?!
In fact this is even stronger in Zero’s case cuz he is a common vampire so is the most natural vampirish thing to crave for PB’s blood by instinct, whereas we do not have NONE example that a PB craves for another’s PB’s blood IF there isn’t romance involved!
See; every backward logic which is invented to serve conveniently something against the facts of the story is very easy to be shattered…

And I have another wonder… some fans are claiming that now Yuuki feels free to choose (for a number of reasons) thus and now is able to express her true romantic feelings for Zero. (the fact that Kaname isn’t even a choice right now is irrelevant for them I suppose lol)

So I’m asking; IF Kaname hadn’t abandon her; wasn’t she ready to spend the eternity by his side? Wasn’t she ready to abandon Zero forever without even to try; to fight for the man… ahem… boy she supposedly was in love? >___>
Are they happy with a girl who had abandoned her true love in order to live with another man just because was more convenient???
I’m in shock here really from such shallowness… cuz apparently if the things are like they believe that is, then isn’t Yuuki who made ANY choice here … isn’t Yuuki who finally chose Zero but Kaname…
They have a great love there and Oh yes they deserve it!

---

As for the trolling thing I stand with Juliet here… from every angle and if you look the situation is a troll and personally, no I won’t change my mind about that even if the next(s) chapters prove that my interpretations were on the right direction.
If I’ll prove right, then this is a troll for the Zeki side… if I’m wrong then this is not only a troll for the Yumes but a deliberate deception not for one or few chapters but for years.
And before being misunderstood here … I do not mean of course that the story cannot change direction and shift from Yume to Zeki but not in this cheap, rushed, unjustifiable viz trolling way …

For example what the purpose of Yuuki’s words in the very previous chapter “I belong to Kaname”? Not to mention all her other declarations which had came AFTER Kaname abandoned her, AFTER Kaname “revealed” a cruel murderous side, AFTER her relationship with Zero had improved… and most importantly AFTER she learnt about Kaname’s involvement into Zero drama! << This would have been the golden moment for Hino to change Yuuki’s feelings … wouldn’t have been to most justifiable shift; especially IF Yuuki’s true love was Zero and not Kaname! The man with whom she had decided to live her life with, had destroyed the man who she TRULY loved … what a better trigger from that? What a better emotional stir; that would have helped her to bring on the surface her true feelings????
Yet all we had was a Yuuki saying >> “MY Kaname is here … You didn’t come to take me away like before?!”

To take her away from the man who she truly loves??? To go away with the man who supposedly destroyed the man who she truly loves???? Geez!

Who is fooling who here; and who is trolled???

So where is the efficient trigger NOW that made her realize miraculously what she truly feels since all the above weren’t enough???

But yeah I forgot … the magic dance did all the work! >>>

Juliet wrote: then again as you say this chapter poses striking contradictions that should really bother, instead of exciting, i understand the first approach to the scenes to be enthusiastic from the zeki part...can they really put it all and justify such changes as you described just to a fickle girl?

once again i am astonished by the justification that the zeki's court uses to purify pure trolling attempts or to phrase this better with the low standards and tolerance.

Co-sign! I couldn’t have said it better!

Such low expectations endangers the consistency of the script and more than that does not hold back any gravity at all...

so what is left to believe? even in their case? If so.. then if Hino trolls to their direction, it will be something acceptable, justified also?

Apparently.
If Hino doesn’t justify their expectations that this chapter created according to them, then they won’t have ANY reason to complain I suppose… because since a fickle girl is totally acceptable from them then is also totally justified to change her mind according to the wind again and again… *sigh*

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Duskola wrote: Yes, Shiki could definitely be one of them. I guess Aido can be another, because we saw him pondering about blood tablets some chapters ago, and that argument is still pending. Plus, he's the one who wants to know the truth about his father's supposed death, and I think this is a very good reason to be there at that moment. I really can't – or don't want - to guess who the others may be

Well at least this, and if we are correct that Rima is escorted from some of the “first knights” then we can assume that this party is the stage where the “drama” will be unfold thus and their presence will play a role there. I.e. that it won’t affair only the main trio.

You are right,Kaname is disposed to let Yuuki free, and he knows this could mean for her to be with another man. So, I don't think he's there (only) to show us his jealousy (that he obviously has).

Honestly if I see now a jealous Kaname and that’s it, I swear I will scream!
Not that I do not want to see him jealous (hahaha I’m dying to see him in that state lol) BUT not in this serious moment… and especially not since Yuuki couldn’t move him even an inch with all her efforts and “cries” before!
His previous unwavering determination (at least in front of Yuuki because when he was alone we know his suffering) simply cannot allow such behavior or weakness if you like right now! It would be shallow…
No no no … If Hino damages Kaname’s profile like this I’m dropping it!

Because two things are keeping me “loyal” to this story >> a) Kaname’s character which thus far was unprecedented… almost perfect! and b) the successfully complemented 1st arc which makes me hope that the same will happen for the 2nd arc as well.

So, I don't think he's there (only) to show us his jealousy (that he obviously has). I think he can be there or because Isaya's plan helps him either because it's an obstacle.
At first I thought that he secretly cooperated with Isaya in some way. But Isaya talks about a trap. And you gave a good question here: what could be a trap for Kaname?

Hm… still we cannot exclude completely your first hypothesis yet. Isaya could talk about a trap but if he was in any kind of cooperation with Kaname he wouldn’t reveal that to Yuuki… he would have let her believe that this is indeed a trap for Kaname. And there is a hint that might support this speculation … if you remember right after Kaname’s disappearance and when it became known that he killed Hanadagi and Aido-dono, Isaya received a note/letter from someone that we do not know.
Back then we had speculated again that this note could have been from Kaname but still we do not know who the sender was, neither the content of it.

However Kaname gives the impression that at least in this phase of his plans he wanted to work alone and secondly if he wanted to meet Yuuki and Zero for some reasons he could have done that without the ball. I mean his previous behavior gave me the feeling that his plan was gearing towards the last phase plus that he wanted to keep Yuuki as far as he could from it… so why to set up now a ball with Isaya’s cooperation and bring her again in the center of the development?
Also Isaya’s words that he wanted to do something for his friends’ children; do not fit so much with Kaname’s attempts to distance himself from Yuuki… viz this ball probably ain’t included into his plans since it brings them together again.
So me too, I’m more inclined to think that Kaname was somehow “compelled” to attend there for some reason.

There is also another farfetched speculation … that Isaya could have his own agenda and he is using Yuuki thus and Kaname was compelled to appear. This would mean perhaps that Isaya isn’t exactly the peaceful or the friendly PB that seems to be. Well just another possibility lol.

Oh, well. If we put together some pieces – Yuuki saying goodbye to Yori, Yuuki's behavior and awareness, Zeki “kiss” (the other true kiss they had was a goodbye kiss...) - all this makes me think Yuuki is now extremely resolute and she wants to save both Kaname and the PB or die in the intent. What can be a trap for Kaname? Let's suppose his plan is the only way to protect Yuuki from something. What would he do, if he had to choose between his plan and Yuuki's death? What if Yuuki is trying to steal his “weapon” (Zero)? What if the trap is dangerous because this could truly lead to her death, and the death of everyone involved ( → that's why she feels guilty, to have Zero there)?

I agree with the part that Yuuki seems very determined to reach to extremes if she has to… her goodbye to Yori indicates that, plus it shows that her intentions aren’t to “finish” with Kaname and go back because if that was the case then there wasn’t no reason for her to say her farewell to Yori in the first place.
However I do not think that whatever and if she has in mind could harm Zero physically << that Yuuki would never endanger … not only Zero but no one else… it’s not in her nature. The only harm that Yuuki could possibly cause to Zero is emotionally again, something that Kaito’s words to Zero implied as well.
So I think that Yuuki only herself intends to put in danger something that could make her vulnerable as well to anyone’s mischievous intentions lol.

But it's obvious, because Yuuki says she love someone only when she doesn't truly love, to persuade herself and not to be alone so, if she never said Zero some kind of “love” word, it must be because she truly loves him. That's her logic. (Just joking ).

No comment!

I’m in shock here really from such shallowness… cuz apparently if the things are like they believe that is, then isn’t Yuuki who made ANY choice here … isn’t Yuuki who finally chose Zero but Kaname…
They have a great love there and Oh yes they deserve it!

haha, Kaname the matchmaker, but its true, if kaname had not left, Yuuki would be by his side; wasnt that what everybody used to say as we saw in the flashbacks? so it's Kaname giving a chance to Zeki here, not even Yuuki herself in the first place.

nina wrote:And if we combine this with her flashbacks of a Yuuki who always treated Zero as a sub-mother/sister i.e. as a figure who wanted to protect and heal this boy from his suffering then her characterization now “boy” indicates that Yuuki still sees Zero like she used to.

Or maybe - let me guess - she refers to him as a "boy" because she remembered something that makes her feel much older than him? Oooooh pure speculation here, but let me dream!

nina wrote:
A girl who suddenly gotten into an erotic mood, who was expressing erotic signals, which one dance made her realize that she is in love (another absurd argument … one dance was enough; while 1,5 year of soul-searching was nothing! O.O … well Zero must be one hell of a dancer then ) then excuse me but the first thing that she should think about was the only romantic moment that had with this boy >> his love confession and his kiss!

That's why he've never wanted to dance before, he KNOWS the power of his dance and didn't want to be a danger to anyone, oh my!!!

But I'm with you, the kiss and "I only wanted your blood" part is missing, and it's a big hole.

nina wrote:then according to this logic Zero doesn’t love Yuuki but only her tasteful blood, no?!

Exactly, and - please let me play the part of the crazy Yume fan - "Oooooh can't you see? Zero never loved Yuuki, she was only attracted by her because he's been lonely for all his life and she was the one to take care of him, he doesn't want to be alone and lose everything again, plus he's a vampire, so his desire for good PB's blood is perfectly natural". How does this sound? Obvioulsy I never believed this (even if I've never read the word "love" in Zero's POV and sentences - did you?), but well, basing on what one wants to see in the scripts, we truly have an entire range of unexplored interpretations

nina wrote:
And I have another wonder… some fans are claiming that now Yuuki feels free to choose (for a number of reasons)

Really? I thought her only reason was Dirty Dancing Zero!

nina wrote:
and now she is able to express her true romantic feelings for Zero. (...)
So I’m asking; (...) Wasn’t she ready to abandon Zero forever without even to try; to fight for the man... ahem... boy she supposedly was in love? >___>
Are they happy with a girl who had abandoned her true love in order to live with another man just because was more convenient???
I’m in shock here really from such shallowness… cuz apparently if the things are like they believe that is, then isn’t Yuuki who made ANY choice here... isn’t Yuuki who finally chose Zero but Kaname...

Kaname foreseer AND wedding planner. Do you have some problems finding out who you truly love and who is the best for you? No problem at all: call Kaname-sama! The first and true love agency that has been granting the highest quality in meetings since 10'000 years ago!

Seriously. Let us not forget that we are talking about Yuuki. A girl who hasn't cared for the whole first arc of the story that Kaname was a vampire and she was a human, and thus her love was truly forbidden. A girl that loved Kaname when she was a child and KNEW he was her brother, that kept loving him after losing her memories, that kept loving him despite society and despite the fact that she thought he didn't return her feelings - she even thought that Kaname saw her as some kind of "pet"! A girl that kept loving him after seeing him feeding from Ruka, even if this reminded her the vampire that attacked her when she was five. I mean: a girl who didn't give a f*** about the two of them being a PB VAMPIRE and a HUMAN - that is, the natural prey of the vampire - would really care about society for TWO VAMPIRES who can't love because one of them is a HUNTER?

A girl that takes active part to Kaien's Academy in two very different times - when she is human AND when she is a vampire, to try and CHANGE society - a girl that went to Isaya with a scythe to ask him if he wanted to die, so that nobody else could be hurt by PB's whims - this is the girl you think that cares so much about the rules of her world and that wants to preserve and follow vampire society's rules as they are.

So, a girl like this, that has always been a fighter - how is she supposed not to be able to fight for the one she truly loves, not to fight for making him change his mind about her? Do you want to tell me that a girl who always put her efforts in fighting for her ideals, now is scared by the (false) hate Zero puts in his words - a hate that is clearly diminishing, and since a long BEFORE the ball - did you see Zero embracing Yuuki after Kaname's confession to have him manipulated? >> That his, I hate HIM, but I cherish YOU - or by the fact that their world are different? Please, so why she didn't give up with Kaname-sama, too?

(Anyway, she has always called Kaname "Kaname-sama" or "onii-sama" - but she called her parents "outo-sama" and "oka-sama", too, and I don't think she used to call her own parents this way to create some distance... - but the reason why she has been calling him Kaname-sama is explained both in Hino's manga and novels:

- when she's a human, she sees Kaname as impossible, unreachable, belonging to a world she couldn't understand and belong to

- she did want to create some distance after seeing this difference realized, that is, when Kaname took blood from Ruka.
BUT calling him Kaname-sama never prevented her to say also strong love words, as we can see in the post @nina wrote here.

Plus, calling -sama his/her own partner is a general use in shoujo, to show a deep love and respect.

So, if somebody wants to state that Kaname was brother-zoned, that Yuuki has never truly loved him but only wanted not to be alone, and so on, please take every sentence @nina gathered in that post and explain your reasons in details by actively building their consistence with the plot - and, above all, their consistence with those very sentences and episodes. Thanks).

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nina wrote:
If I’ll prove right, then this is a troll for the Zeki side... if I’m wrong then this is not only a troll for the Yumes but a deliberate deception not for one or few chapters but for years.
And before being misunderstood here... I do not mean of course that the story cannot change direction and shift from Yume to Zeki but not in this cheap, rushed, unjustifiable viz trolling way...

Exactly. But Zeki won't listen to you. They really think that you - and I, and others - don't care about the beauty and consistence of the story, we are simply deaf to their interpretation and we only want to be right at any cost. That is >>> argumenting in details = be right at any cost.
And you are feeling sorry for the possible Zeki trolling, but they won't feel sorry for Yume: they are only waiting for the very moment in which they will be finally right and defeat all deaf and stubborn Yume in the world, that were never able to see the truth despite all their pompous words, quotes and interpretations. Oh, my.

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nina wrote:
then we can assume that this party is the stage where the “drama” will be unfold

Let's hoooope soooooo I think I'm going to KILL EVIL HINO if she keeps taking time... I want to know Kaname's secreeeeeeeeet I don't give a f*** about the LT PLEASE LET ME KNOWWWWWWWWWWW

nina wrote:
Honestly if I see now a jealous Kaname and that’s it, I swear I will scream!

Me too. He's been too clever in following his plan - and he tried so hard to push Yuuki away - that he can't simply go there and falling into a trap that involves her woman kissing some boy AND he never wanted Yuuki to not cherish Zero, he let them alone to kiss goodbye and he accepted the "Zero is in my heart" childish words - that obviously Yuuki considers childish only because she feels guilty, let us not forget He went truly mad only when Zero started drinking her blood. But telling the truth about Zero in front of Yuuki and Zero, is like telling her "let me go" in front of his biggest supposed opponent. So, if he's going to be mad for a simple supposed kiss, well. This is truly out of the blue, too

nina wrote:
Because two things are keeping me “loyal” to this story >> a) Kaname’s character which thus far was unprecedented… almost perfect! and b) the successfully complemented 1st arc which makes me hope that the same will happen for the 2nd arc as well.

nina wrote:Isaya could talk about a trap but if he was in any kind of cooperation with Kaname he wouldn’t reveal that to Yuuki... (...) if you remember right after Kaname’s disappearance and when it became known that he killed Hanadagi and Aido-dono, Isaya received a note/letter from someone that we do not know. (...) still we do not know who the sender was, neither the content of it.

However Kaname gives the impression that at least in this phase of his plans he wanted to work alone and secondly if he wanted to meet Yuuki and Zero for some reasons he could have done that without the ball. I mean his previous behavior gave me the feeling that his plan was gearing towards the last phase plus that he wanted to keep Yuuki as far as he could from it... so why to set up now a ball with Isaya’s cooperation and bring her again in the center of the development?

Also Isaya’s words that he wanted to do something for his friends’ children; do not fit so much with Kaname’s attempts to distance himself from Yuuki... viz this ball probably ain’t included into his plans since it brings them together again.
So me too, I’m more inclined to think that Kaname was somehow “compelled” to attend there for some reason.

(...) Isaya could have his own agenda and he is using Yuuki thus and Kaname was compelled to appear. This would mean perhaps that Isaya isn’t exactly the peaceful or the friendly PB that seems to be. Well just another possibility lol.

Veeeery interesting points here! And I also noticed that Yuuki refers to Isaya as "the oldest among PB" (please correct me if I'm wrong). So, he surely was friend of Haruka and Juuri, as we can clearly and finally read here - and this may imply that Haruka and Juuri did something big concerning Yume, that can't be suddenly waisted? - but, how old is he, and what does he know? He probably knows everything, even Kaname's secret. As for him being an enemy, I don't think so. I think he's another key to cohexistence - that obviously, is not a part of the plot - as he seems to be Kaien's PB equivalent. Who knows?

nina wrote:
However I do not think that whatever and if she has in mind could harm Zero physically << that Yuuki would never endanger … not only Zero but no one else… it’s not in her nature. The only harm that Yuuki could possibly cause to Zero is emotionally again, something that Kaito’s words to Zero implied as well.

Yes, I didn't mean that Yuuki wanted to hurt Zero, but maybe she must do something that Zero won't like - or that could cause emotional pain to Zero, as you say - the big pain that he will have to overcome, together with the image of him standing in front of two coffins - nobody in the LT party seems to care about this, but I keep thinking about it. And, obviously, she doesn't want anybody to be hurt, but if this plan is so dangerous, she knows somebody may be hurt or killed, and she feels pre-emptively guilty to put all these people in danger.

Well, I was long as usual, so I'll stop here. For now!!!