Is the return in academy a Zero-Yuuki fanservice before the end?

First topic message reminder :

There is the opinion outhere that the second school arc is probably a last effort for Zero-Yuuki fanservice before Hino pulls the curtain and we reach the Yume Finals (haha, what am I saying today? LOL). You think that's the trick with the school arc or couldn't Hino develop the script in another destination if she wanted to make Yuuki as the current vampire leader without puting them on the school grounds?

tunafishsandwich wrote:lol If you think Zero and Yuki is fanservice, you really need to reread Vampire Knight. Zeki has been the intended pairing since the beginning, and with each chapter they keep getting closer and closer to getting together. If Zeki comes as a shocker to you, then you have utterly failed at reading between the lines and only looked for what you wanted to see in Yume.

Yume was indeed the fanservice pairing all along. It's quite sad that Hino trolled Yumes, but what can you do? Zekis tried to warn Yumes =/

You must be joking, right? The above message must be a joke and to be spesific, a bad one...

I mean OK, you missed the whole story by trying to read between the lines. OK. I get that, but have you ever bothered to read a volume? In the first page in every volume, sais that Yuki and Zero are childhood friends and that Yuki adores Kaname.
Does that sounds like Zeki to you at all?

I just found myself upset to even have to comment a message like that!!

tunafishsandwich wrote:lol If you think Zero and Yuki is fanservice, you really need to reread Vampire Knight. Zeki has been the intended pairing since the beginning, and with each chapter they keep getting closer and closer to getting together. If Zeki comes as a shocker to you, then you have utterly failed at reading between the lines and only looked for what you wanted to see in Yume.

Yume was indeed the fanservice pairing all along. It's quite sad that Hino trolled Yumes, but what can you do? Zekis tried to warn Yumes =/

HAHA YOU THINK you are doing as a FAVOR? what an egoistic thinking

If I dared you to narrate the entire story you probably will only stick to the only thing that appealed you!! and fabricate the rest you don't know! no, probably you will say you didn't understand the rest, and only skipped YUME parts



now i know what zekis think when they're acting like they're on a kaname-hate-propaganda spree, it was all to "save the fandom", lying and fabricating the meanings behind the idea and many underhanded tactics played was all for the sake of Salvation.

"we are doing you a favor!"



this should top the charts of most delusional perceptions in fandom history, and your group just nailed it

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@topic

YUKI'S AMBIGUITY IS FANSERVICE. Enough said. More than ten chapters had passed and she still can't decide. If you still buy what she says after this, wow you must be rich.

libra wrote:

tunafishsandwich wrote:lol If you think Zero and Yuki is fanservice, you really need to reread Vampire Knight. Zeki has been the intended pairing since the beginning, and with each chapter they keep getting closer and closer to getting together. If Zeki comes as a shocker to you, then you have utterly failed at reading between the lines and only looked for what you wanted to see in Yume.

Yume was indeed the fanservice pairing all along. It's quite sad that Hino trolled Yumes, but what can you do? Zekis tried to warn Yumes =/

You must be joking, right? The above message must be a joke and to be spesific, a bad one...

I mean OK, you missed the whole story by trying to read between the lines. OK. I get that, but have you ever bothered to read a volume? In the first page in every volume, sais that Yuki and Zero are childhood friends and that Yuki adores Kaname.
Does that sounds like Zeki to you at all?

I just found myself upset to even have to comment a message like that!!

hahaha, sorry I can't resist

@Solace and Lib are right...thus you came here to tell us that yume is a fanservice, Zeki is the intended couple. Are you Hino? I have more questions to make you...

juliet wrote:

libra wrote:

tunafishsandwich wrote:lol If you think Zero and Yuki is fanservice, you really need to reread Vampire Knight. Zeki has been the intended pairing since the beginning, and with each chapter they keep getting closer and closer to getting together. If Zeki comes as a shocker to you, then you have utterly failed at reading between the lines and only looked for what you wanted to see in Yume.

Yume was indeed the fanservice pairing all along. It's quite sad that Hino trolled Yumes, but what can you do? Zekis tried to warn Yumes =/

You must be joking, right? The above message must be a joke and to be spesific, a bad one...

I mean OK, you missed the whole story by trying to read between the lines. OK. I get that, but have you ever bothered to read a volume? In the first page in every volume, sais that Yuki and Zero are childhood friends and that Yuki adores Kaname.
Does that sounds like Zeki to you at all?

I just found myself upset to even have to comment a message like that!!

hahaha, sorry I can't resist

@Solace and Lib are right...thus you came here to tell us that yume is a fanservice, Zeki is the intended couple. Are you Hino? I have more questions to make you...

Funny Juliet i wonder what Hino have in her thoughts letting the heroine kissing with both the boys

I don't know if I can say this without people being mad or making fun of me again for defending zeki, but I'll try my best to say it in the most neutral way as possible so I hope people will respond in the same way.

First off, both couples have their share of fanservice. There's no saying that one of them is "unimportant" or "irrelevant" to the story (if that's what you mean by "only fanservice") O.o And what I'd like to point out is that, with 73 now, 8 volumes have ended with a zeki cliffhanger, while 1 or 2 ended with yume. No, I'm not saying that because of this, zeki is more important or whatever it is you'll accuse me of, but the deal is that cliffhangers are rarely used as "fanservice". They are used to cause drama and importance to the plot or the characters involving it. So even if zeki is merely "friendship", they are just as important as yume. Both couples have had arcs revolving around them. The manga wouldn't work without either, and the tension/excitement to it would be far from this high, right

That's my share on it, so I hope I managed without offending someone. At least I tried.

but the deal is that cliffhangers are rarely used as "fanservice". They are used to cause drama and importance to the plot or the characters involving it.

no cliffhangers serve to propel / compel the readers to read the next chapter, and I believe using Zeki is the most effective way to do this. Their relationship is rife with tension throughout the manga, it is mostly tension between them and its resolution. with YUME there are also cliffhangers just pointing that out, but YUME deals more with plotbased and romance rather than actual tension in the romance so I don't see how YUME serves this purpose. I should know, I write fictions and fanfictions I always use a certain aspect of the story as a cliffhanger so they will read the next chap.

EDIT: thats why its called "cliff-hanger" it literally leaves the readers hanging on until the next chap. It may or may not have anything to do with the plot

What is fanservice after all? like if it adds at the plot or moves the plot around is it a fanservice or due to its importance to the plot is not? Now Yumes scenes with Kaname kissing Yume are of course a fanservice (but we did not get much)...haha the funny thinking would be if Zeki is not a couple so no literally there is no fanservice there (if you get my point). But what if their last interaction is a fanservice? Is it bad or good for the characters to have fanservice moments?

I would say its good cause it means popularity and a mangaka that wants to satisfy her fans in that way is always welcome (yes anxious here to get more). I really do not know how objective we can be by defining that fanservice.

But anyway certain moments or chapters I think can be considered fanservice in the broader meaning of the word, now the whole plot, the whole interaction of two characters from the beggining to the end to be considered fanservice I think no, nobody can say that, is too exagerrated after all fanservice is supposed to be limited in scenes.
So the thing is that a fanservice (especially in Hino's case) would be judged only at the end when we can see which scenes were considered meaningful and which not, but in general fanservice the whole plot? no...

you know fanservice?

its when something extremely pleasant happens and it doesn't make sense.

If you watched highschool of the dead it has tons of FanService, especially to male audience.

I think that its scenes/details that the mangaka uses in order to satisfy its audience- give them what they want, while these scenes or details are unimportant to the plot, but i understand that the term "fanservice" has a broader sense...and this I wonder if it can be attributed to generally speaking a couple? or the interactions of the two characters?

I tend to think that still can not go that far..like someone said above that yume is fanservice...by definition I think that's wrong....fanservice is limited in scenes, can not be attributed to a whole script since that makes the plot..and the plot can not be considered meaningless. In that sense its easier to define or recognize what is fanservice and what not.


Haha that's me and definitions..

Things that work against Yume :

- paired way too early imo
- Kaname is hiding way too much things from Yuuki (though he revealed all his crimes in the end of first arc), he resumed his old activities, leaving Yuuki in the dark about it...
- Yuuki's fickleness (unresolved feelings)


Things that work against Zeki :

- different lifespan
- Yuuki's fickleness (unresolved feelings)- since we are still left in the dark about her real feelings, things can go both ways : it's either love or friendship.
- Zero and Yuuki are both dense, it's really painful to say the least...
- Enemies? we can almost assumed with this chapter that it's not the case anymore...

Things that go in favor of Yume :

- Yuuki loves Kaname since day one, she reasserted it countless times during the manga.
- She trusts him- THIS is really important because she could have wavered when he decided to reveal all his crimes, she didn't.
- they are both purebloods (same lifespan)
- destined love
- Kaname is Hino's fav character (ok, this one is quite random lol)

Things that go in favor of Zeki :

- forbidden love (pureblood/vampire hunter)
- huge tension- it's very exciting when they are together, you can't deny that.
- unresolved feelings- we know Zero is in love with her but Yuuki's feelings are still unknown. Is it love, brotherly love or friendship? All this is left unanswered for the moment and all this delaying is for a reason imo.
- their relationship went to friendship/enemies/?
- Yuuki's revelation about how one chunk of her heart belongs to Zero.

It's all this unknown that is fishy in their relationship, why this much delaying if it's not for something big? *biased comment here, I'm aware of it but still *

Concerning fanservice, they both have their share?..."Fanservice" does not fit the context imo, "fanservice" is more of a tacky way to appeal the readers with scenes such as a girl in swimsuit or with big breasts or topless guys...shirtless Zero/Kaname is what I called "fanservice" not their interactions with Yuuki.

And lastly, the cliffhanger thing is here to add tension but like sweetsolace rightly said, it has also the purpose to lure the reader to read next chapters...(though if overused, it can become quite annoying...if you used to watch LOST, you would understand what I mean)

roronoa-zoro wrote:Things that go in favor of Zeki :

- forbidden love (pureblood/vampire hunter)

I don't buy it at all. From what I see in Zero and Yuuki is they also share Incompatible Fate.

KuranPrince wrote:

roronoa-zoro wrote:Things that go in favor of Zeki :

- forbidden love (pureblood/vampire hunter)

I don't buy it at all. From what I see in Zero and Yuuki is they also share Incompatible Fate.

It's a matter of opinion of course but for me it's one of their main appeal (and for many readers). You do not share the same opinion, fine, I respect that

roronoa-zoro wrote:Things that work against Yume :

- paired way too early imo
- Kaname is hiding way too much things from Yuuki (though he revealed all his crimes in the end of first arc), he resumed his old activities, leaving Yuuki in the dark about it...
- Yuuki's fickleness (unresolved feelings)
Ro


Things that work against Zeki :

- different lifespan
- Yuuki's fickleness (unresolved feelings)- since we are still left in the dark about her real feelings, things can go both ways : it's either love or friendship.
- Zero and Yuuki are both dense, it's really painful to say the least...
- Enemies? we can almost assumed with this chapter that it's not the case anymore...

Things that go in favor of Yume :

- Yuuki loves Kaname since day one, she reasserted it countless times during the manga.
- She trusts him- THIS is really important because she could have wavered when he decided to reveal all his crimes, she didn't.
- they are both purebloods (same lifespan)
- destined love
- Kaname is Hino's fav character (ok, this one is quite random lol)

Things that go in favor of Zeki :

- forbidden love (pureblood/vampire hunter)
- huge tension- it's very exciting when they are together, you can't deny that.
- unresolved feelings- we know Zero is in love with her but Yuuki's feelings are still unknown. Is it love, brotherly love or friendship? All this is left unanswered for the moment and all this delaying is for a reason imo.
- their relationship went to friendship/enemies/?
- Yuuki's revelation about how one chunk of her heart belongs to Zero.

It's all this unknown that is fishy in their relationship, why this much delaying if it's not for something big? *biased comment here, I'm aware of it but still *

Concerning fanservice, they both have their share?..."Fanservice" does not fit the context imo, "fanservice" is more of a tacky way to appeal the readers with scenes such as a girl in swimsuit or with big breasts or topless guys...shirtless Zero/Kaname is what I called "fanservice" not their interactions with Yuuki.

And lastly, the cliffhanger thing is here to add tension but like sweetsolace rightly said, it has also the purpose to lure the reader to read next chapters...(though if overused, it can become quite annoying...if you used to watch LOST, you would understand what I mean)

Okay i agree with you and KuranPrince are right about missing
incompatible fate

@ About fanservice...yes..that's why I said if we are using fanservice here in a broader sense of the word, because interactions among characters are not fanservice, the details can be example kiss, hugs, ect. So...fanservice can not be a whole plot...but apparently I think that most fans nowdays attribute that definition in a more liberal way even if by definition that can be out of context. I notice that everywhere but okay LOL a whole coupling from the start to the end is far too much to be said a fanservice. Anyway...

forbidden love (pureblood/vampire hunter)

I also noticed that because is it really forbitten? like is it a tabou at their society or we know that's forbitten? or is it an assumption because Zero said the things that he said?
For example Cross with Yuuri, let's say that Haruka did not exist would that be a forbitten love? because I am under the impression that it not forbidden but perhaps strange (incompatible due to their natures as the girls said)? you know what i mean...

nice post by the way, quite descriptive..there are many things there can one can add or ask about..

@roronoa

nice you pretty much tried to be neutral and i think it worked. Im also wondering why pureblood + hunter is taboo? i dont think it should have to be that she is vampire and he is hunter, because currently even the hunters are helping yuki right now. I think its mostly have to do with their lifespan that makes them far apart there.

@juliet i agree with your definition of fanservice that it expands in definition. but , for example
fans wanted shiki and rima interactions, if hino listens to this and puts next in a chapter where it doesnt make sense for it to be included , then that intention was for the fans--fanservice.

but, (FOR NOW) im not saying yuki biting zero is fanservice, but there has to be an explanation to that.
yuki's ambiguity is definitely fanservice. whats the reason she cant decide? come on, i mean you all heard her say all those things she said when they parted, what she had been doing kaname. I find that with everything she did and thought with kaname (thoughts are important) it seems odd that she also thinks of zero in the same way, its just Odd.
and now kaname's gone she suddenly notices zero more? she spend most of her time trying to forget him and move on, then suddenly its there? O.o

I don't really have much more to add on the fanservice thing as Juliet added quite alot. However I looked it up out of curiosity and the defintion is this: Fanservice is a term originating from anime and manga fandom for material in series which is intentionally added to please the audience. It's about "servicing" the fan - giving the fans "exactly what they want."

For this manga, I bet biting scenes are quite popular, yet as they're very relevant to the plot. But as for "not being relevant", there are of course those moments too. With zeki, hmm, one of my favorite scenes is when Zero licks blood from her fingers looking like he's literally turned on. Pretty much pure fanservice there. Or when Yuuki licked Kaname's arm after Zero had torn his hand off. Or the few shots we had in the past of both Zero and Kaname when they'd just come out of the shower. Moments like those are what'd I'd consider for fanservice purposes only, as they don't tell us anything, it's just hott to look at.


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"Is zeki forbidden love?"

Well, I just try and imagine the two walking hand in hand into the association saying "Everybody, we're dating." .... somehow I get the feeling they wouldn't exactly recieve people's blessings. Least not at first.

It's never stated I think that two different races can't be together, but a hunter/pureblood being forbidden/taboo pretty much speaks for itself. It'd be like a hunter started dating a wolf, wouldn't it? (In fairytale aspect.) But it might depend on how you see it. As for Kaien and Juri, I didn't think they were in love. Juri were always happy with Haruka, and Kaien said he loved them both, referring to them as "my darling purebloods." But it's no doubt that Zero and Yuuki is somewhat of a mirror image, just like she and Kaname obviously are to Juri and Haruka.

juliet wrote:
@ About fanservice...yes..that's why I said if we are using fanservice here in a broader sense of the word, because interactions among characters are not fanservice, the details can be example kiss, hugs, ect. So...fanservice can not be a whole plot...but apparently I think that most fans nowdays attribute that definition in a more liberal way even if by definition that can be out of context. I notice that everywhere but okay LOL a whole coupling from the start to the end is far too much to be said a fanservice. Anyway...

forbidden love (pureblood/vampire hunter)

I also noticed that because is it really forbitten? like is it a tabou at their society or we know that's forbitten? or is it an assumption because Zero said the things that he said?
For example Cross with Yuuri, let's say that Haruka did not exist would that be a forbitten love? because I am under the impression that it not forbidden but perhaps strange (incompatible due to their natures as the girls said)? you know what i mean...

nice post by the way, quite descriptive..there are many things there can one can add or ask about..

Thank you and people are of course welcome/free to argue or add points to this post
Concerning "forbidden love", it comes more of the fact of how things are portrayed in VK...Shizuka and her human lover is the only example? of a love relationship between these two different races but it ended badly. I'm not talking about low class vampires/human here (there are examples of that) but purebloods/former human relationship (Zero is one). Must it always end tragically? Is it a fatality? Are all these relationships doomed? Or is that Zeki will be the exception? Lifespan is, I agree, quite a hardship in their relationship but is it really important in the end? Love is love, like in real life you don't necessarily die at the same time, why would it be any different in manga? Can fate really can't be changed? I want to believe that things can change.

Moreover vampire hunters and vampires had had a feud between them for centuries, they are sworn enemies though they try to reach compromises to achieve peace but things don't look that good for the moment. They don't hold each other in high regard, though they're working together, there's still distrust between them. Vampire Hunters see them as bloodsucker beasts and Pureblood vampires consider them as low-beings whose only purpose is to be enslaved (humans).
I don't know for Kaien because I don't think he was in love with Juuri to tell you the truth...more admiration but I might be wrong.
Sorry if it doesn't make sense...Thank you for reading.
It's my opinion as a Zeki

PS : thank you all for your kind comments about my post^^

@Roronoa-zoro

Very good analysis roronoa … I’ve read your post with very interest!

I agree with a lot of your points, and I disagree with some other haha.

But before I’d like to present how I see the VK overall. For me isn’t a common/regular shoujo, mostly cuz of the complexity of the plot, which is brilliant and the action part. But what concerns the romance part is more a typical shoujo … the LT, two gorgeous guys, protective over a “dummy” girl etc.

But since we’re talking about the romance here, I’ll base my remarks on shoujo’s romance in general.

Here where I differ:

roronoa-zoro wrote: - paired way too early imo

1. IMO this is one of the strongest hints that Yume is gonna be the end game hence isn’t against but pro-Yume. From all the shoujo manga that I’ve read (and it’s plenty haha), the end game couple is obvious from the beginning, despite if they are together or apart the fact is that the reader knows that the mutual romantic feelings are there. In our case the Vk starts with Yuuki and Kaname … first page (significant) … and we know pretty soon that both of them have/share clearly romantic feelings from the start, whereas for the “rival pairing” is mostly portrayed as an unrequited love. Yuuki declares that she loves Kaname as a man and Zero as a brother/friend.

2. Another point which has certain gravity, since we are talking about a shoujo, is the first kiss. In the majority of the shoujo the first kiss belongs to the final winner guy, except if there is some tragedy as a rape etc. But still the first kiss for the teen innocent girl is a big deal. I’m sure this is something familiar for everyone who read shoujo manga. In our case despite the fact that Zero tried twice, if I’m not mistaken, to kiss Yuuki, at the last minute withdrew, and the first Yuuki’s romantic kiss went to Kaname (twice: the bloody kiss and the kiss Yuuki gave him before the fight with Rido), whereas Zero kissed her after these two kisses. Was an accidental choice from Hino? I don’t think so … and in shoujo world this is like an unbreakable “contract”.

- forbidden love (pureblood/vampire hunter)

I don’t see Zeki love as forbidden … difficult yes, but not a taboo … especially in Zero’s case who is also a vampire. Furthermore practically are on the same side … they want to stop the vampires from using/enslave humans and if we consider the plausible “fact” that in the end most likely the co-existence will accomplished I can’t see the taboo there. (?)
A forbidden/taboo was the relationship between Yuuki (the human) and Kaname who wasn’t just a vampire but a PB one, meaning that if their relationship would actualize Yuuki would be turned into a vampire. For me this is a taboo.

About the different lifespan … seems to be a big issue for the PBs. The “eternity” is depicted (from Hino) as something very “heavy” to bear especially if they lose their lover … they lose the will to live, or “withdraw” from life, and Yuuki has mentioned how difficult/lonely should be to live alone for eternity. Personally I hadn’t given so much gravity in this factor, but when I’ve read the manga “Hana to Akuma” I changed my mind about it … is really really sad such an end, and since I dislike the unhappy endings … now I think it is a significant factor. Of course I’m not saying that if there is love, the difference in lifespan should be the ultimate obstacle and vice versa … the same lifespan it shouldn’t be the reason to love/choose someone.

- huge tension- it's very exciting when they are together, you can't deny that.
- unresolved feelings- we know Zero is in love with her but Yuuki's feelings are still unknown. Is it love, brotherly love or friendship? All this is left unanswered for the moment and all this delaying is for a reason imo.
- their relationship went to friendship/enemies/?
- Yuuki's revelation about how one chunk of her heart belongs to Zero.

It's all this unknown that is fishy in their relationship, why this much delaying if it's not for something big? *biased comment here, I'm aware of it but still *

For me Zeki it had tension and it was interesting in the 1st arc, but since then gradually it fainted away (I mean from development aspect). I’m saying this by comparing the two relationships in the two arcs. In the 1st arc Zeki (and Zero) was in the spot light, but Yume was always there as the unquestionable romantic pair. Also Kaname had a much bigger role, than Zero had in the current arc.

Obviously there are some questions which should be answered, but from my point of view the fact that we don’t have a clear answer from Yuuki about the type of love she has for Zero, that’s against Zeki and no pro. This ambiguity is in a way the fanservice part, cuz as long as the fog remains, both fandoms could hope. But also, as the time passes the space is getting narrowness … again for a development.
Now about the infamous phrase “one chunk of my heart” … if this phrase was clearly a declaration of romantic love, then I think especially Zekis wouldn’t accept that still there is ambiguity or that it could be just friendship. I’m not saying that a Zeki ending is impossible but the odds IMO are against them …

About fanservice … I would call it mangaka-service hahaha … cuz obviously some scenes which concerns the LT could be translated as fanservice from the “rival” fandoms, whereas are serving the mangaka and and the popularity of the manga.
I have stated before that the dragging of the LT I find it very annoying and from a certain point fanservice. XD

@ Howl realistically speaking you are right, Kaien did love them both (even though I tend to think that Kaien loved Yuuri a bit more, it's also in the fanbook description LOL imagine him loving Haruka more? hahha that would be a bit worrying, even though to our time everything is acceptable)...LOL
but what I meant with their example was since in their example their is not that mask of hate/that pretended barrier from the one side, would it be considered a taboo in case they both had feelings for each other?

Literally I do not see it so much of a forbitten love, since Zero is also a vampire.

Okay anyone's sees taboos differently but in VK society I think they are not together (hunters-vampires) not because they are going to be criticized from the society, its the ethics that prohibit it but due to the conflict it naturally exists by their insticts, so the word "forbitten" just does not sit that right...still can not get that word right though to fit my description....anyway I think we covered the issue there.

I move on here...

I have stated before that the dragging of the LT I find it very annoying and from a certain point fanservice.

Here I want to say that if Hino considers ambiguity to be fanservice, I tend to think is not. Because fanservice by definition satisfies the fans, what and who does the ambiguity, in this case, satisfies? because let's just detach ourselves from preference and see it from the outside.

Example;

Yuuki tells "All I ever wanted were mine from the start", ah applauses the yumes,yes, yes...Zeki's go down drain..

Some chapters later

Yuuki: " I want to snatch him with my fags" now this is ambuiguity here because is she after food? is she after Zero for Zero? Ah Zeki fandom gets excited...Yumes go down.

Then apparently now there is a biting scene that shall not resolve the LT since there is no prior development and Zero just stated that he is giving his blood so that she can control the nightclass after he heard her saying that she wants to talk to him like the older days. So no there is no resolution as Hino presents it there is even more ambuiguity than before, because before Yume was more concrete.

okay, okay...now this is raising expectations from the zeki part..but if two panels later Yuuki goes "Onii-sama I am sorry but you had taken also Ruka's blood back there to comfort yourself from hunger"... what will this be? for the zekis?

and if after two panels Yuuki goes " I am so weak that now I need Zero's blood" without refering if its only his blood that she wants? what is this again?

So eventually this thing can not be described in the long term as a fanservice, since its actually breaking the nerves of the fandoms. So who is really satisfied by that kind of fanservice?

I think you understand what I am trying to say; not that this is not fanservice in the broader way of the sense but that in this broader meaning finally it drags so much that it ends not to be. I consider it a plot's device for Hino to sustain both fandoms hooked to the script, not to satisfy them, to keep them hooked.. this things is totally different from the way fanservice ought to be. Hope I make sense, LOL.

nina wrote:
2. Another point which has certain gravity, since we are talking about a shoujo, is the first kiss. In the majority of the shoujo the first kiss belongs to the final winner guy, except if there is some tragedy as a rape etc. But still the first kiss for the teen innocent girl is a big deal. I’m sure this is something familiar for everyone who read shoujo manga. In our case despite the fact that Zero tried twice, if I’m not mistaken, to kiss Yuuki, at the last minute withdrew, and the first Yuuki’s romantic kiss went to Kaname (twice: the bloody kiss and the kiss Yuuki gave him before the fight with Rido), whereas Zero kissed her after these two kisses. Was an accidental choice from Hino? I don’t think so … and in shoujo world this is like an unbreakable “contract”.

That used to be true as a cliche, now mangaka like to play with it because it was once so universal. An example is L-DK, very typical type of romance shoujo, the girl is first kissed by the main boy's brother instead and he tells her to erase it from her memory as her first kiss.

The expanded rule in a shoujo for a "first kiss" to be the "unbreakable contract" cliche, is that the girl almost always has to remark that it's her first kiss, first kiss has to matter to her. Cliche romance stories will still stick to it as the rule, but other stories ignore it or play with it, it is no longer an unbreakable contract. VK isn't playing with the idea nor making it important, because doesn't give it special regard, so its definitely not an unbreakable contract or assurance of Yume. It is but one positive point for Yume, much like the chocolate gift is for Zeki.

juliet wrote:
Example;
Yuuki tells "All I ever wanted were mine from the start", ah applauses the yumes,yes, yes...Zeki's go down drain..

I've seen this quote bandied about a lot, but to me, I never agreed with the sentiment. From your perspective, its a great quote for Yume stating how she wants Kaname, from mine, that's not the context of the statement.

Yuuki here is full of doubts in this chapter over how suddenly everything she thought she wanted was hers and but she can't deal with Kaname and their differences. This is not Yuuki gushing over her happiness but working through an inequality problem.

Knightmare wrote:

juliet wrote:
Example;
Yuuki tells "All I ever wanted were mine from the start", ah applauses the yumes,yes, yes...Zeki's go down drain..

I've seen this quote bandied about a lot, but to me, I never agreed with the sentiment. From your perspective, its a great quote for Yume stating how she wants Kaname, from mine, that's not the context of the statement.

Yuuki here is full of doubts in this chapter over how suddenly everything she thought she wanted was hers and but she can't deal with Kaname and their differences. This is not Yuuki gushing over her happiness but working through an inequality problem.

the word "want", "wanted" tells about everything about her feelings, no matter what she is trying to convey there... but in your effort to tell me the meaning of Yuuki's phrase you totally lost the meaning of my post.
It was mere examples (and right now there is no need to tell me if they are valid or no) of how the ambuiguity can be translated to each fandom and how that then shifts totally ending not to be fanservice at all; and yourself right now is another example of that ambuiguity, profoundly...LOL.

Knightmare wrote:

nina wrote:
2. Another point which has certain gravity, since we are talking about a shoujo, is the first kiss. In the majority of the shoujo the first kiss belongs to the final winner guy, except if there is some tragedy as a rape etc. But still the first kiss for the teen innocent girl is a big deal. I’m sure this is something familiar for everyone who read shoujo manga. In our case despite the fact that Zero tried twice, if I’m not mistaken, to kiss Yuuki, at the last minute withdrew, and the first Yuuki’s romantic kiss went to Kaname (twice: the bloody kiss and the kiss Yuuki gave him before the fight with Rido), whereas Zero kissed her after these two kisses. Was an accidental choice from Hino? I don’t think so … and in shoujo world this is like an unbreakable “contract”.

That used to be true as a cliche, now mangaka like to play with it because it was once so universal. An example is L-DK, very typical type of romance shoujo, the girl is first kissed by the main boy's brother instead and he tells her to erase it from her memory as her first kiss.

The expanded rule in a shoujo for a "first kiss" to be the "unbreakable contract" cliche, is that the girl almost always has to remark that it's her first kiss, first kiss has to matter to her. Cliche romance stories will still stick to it as the rule, but other stories ignore it or play with it, it is no longer an unbreakable contract. VK isn't playing with the idea nor making it important, because doesn't give it special regard, so its definitely not an unbreakable contract or assurance of Yume. It is but one positive point for Yume, much like the chocolate gift is for Zeki.

So you think it was an accidental, random choice from Hino to "save" Yuuki's first kiss for Kaname? Because it's not that there was no chance for Zero to snatch that kiss ... he tried twice but ...

If you think that doesn't have significant meaning, not only the kiss but the row of the events then its fine I'm not gonna debate over this cuz obviously is subjective.

PS. Certainly though one chocolate it can't have the same gravity as the first kiss, but again if you think so …

juliet wrote:
the word "want", "wanted" tells about everything about her feelings, no matter what she is trying to convey there... but in your effort to tell me the meaning of Yuuki's phrase you totally lost the meaning of my post.
It was mere examples (and right now there is no need to tell me if they are valid or no) of how the ambuiguity can be translated to each fandom and how that then shifts totally ending not to be fanservice at all; and yourself right now is another example of that ambuiguity, profoundly...LOL.

You caught me, I didn't read all your post, that sentence just captured my attention. Sorry I'm really lazy especially with so many posts going on. Since that is exactly what you were posting about, the different perspectives and interpretations are the issues, I agree. I don't really believe in fanservice at all, I think all of it has meaning and depth with the exception of obvious "time out" stuff and jokes. i think its lazy and people are naming something they don't like as "fanservice" to the other fans cos they think its pointless and meaningless.

nina wrote:
So you think it was an accidental, random choice from Hino to "save" Yuuki's first kiss for Kaname? Because it's not that there was no chance for Zero to snatch that kiss ... he tried twice but ...

If you think that doesn't have significant meaning, not only the kiss but the row of the events then its fine I'm not gonna debate over this cuz obviously is subjective.

You miss my point, "first kiss" isn't a cliched rule to dictate the romance by. The meaningfulness is the actual scene itself and I'm not dismissing the scene, "first" is just significantly meaningful.

I'm not dismissing "first" completely, it just doesn't carry much weight as a cliche (as it applies in the "rules") as it does for some manga. "first" has the same significant cliche count now as "giving your handmade chocolate to 'the' boy", because you can no longer claim it ends all question on who will be endgame. In the larger context of vampire knight, they are meaningless cliches because the romance is NOT being dictated by these rules, because romances don't have to be anymore. Cliches are leaned upon as shortcuts for the reader.

Zero didn't "try" twice, he stopped himself from doing it once, the 2nd time he gets close to Yuuki he was going for the bite and Yuuki remembers the almost kiss.
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2155-24/vampire-knight/chapter-29.html
(correct me if you were referring to something else)

I doubt it as fanservice. LOL! Yume isn't the only pair that deserves to have its romantic, flowery moments. Even if Hino sensei personally likes Kaname better than Zero, it doesn't follow that she favors Kaname more than she favors Zero. (^^P) The fact that she is the mother of this manga, and its characters are like her children, and there are fans who are rooting for her Vampire Knight should be sound enough to keep her unbiased when it comes to her developing of the characters and the plot itself. Zeki deserves the chance tantamount to the chance of a Yume ending.

- I'll keep on putting my hopes and head up for a grand Zeki ending!!! (^O^) WOOHOO!!! No Kaname-fan can kill my spirit! Coz you see, you'll never never ever really know what'll happen, unless it already happens. HAHA!

knightmare wrote: You miss my point, "first kiss" isn't a cliched rule to dictate the romance by. The meaningfulness is the actual scene itself and I'm not dismissing the scene, "first" is not meaningful by itself.

the "first" has little weight as a cliche (as it applies in the "rules"). "first" has the same significant cliche count now as "giving your handmade chocolate to 'the' boy", because you can no longer claim it ends all question on who will be endgame. In the larger context of vampire knight, they are meaningless cliches because the romance is NOT being dictated by these rules, because romances don't have to be anymore. Cliches are leaned upon as shortcuts for the reader.

I did get your point but I didn’t want to debate in details on that, but if you insist.

I don’t agree with you … In general speaking, the first kiss as “first” is meaningful and significant and in the majority of the shoujo (I’m sure there are many exceptions) the guy who takes, not “steals”, the first kiss, is the final guy (I’m talking about pure romance and not about smut/josei/mature shoujo). You support that is an out of date cliché, I believe from my experience, that is still an important element with certain gravity under ifs and ands, and most of the times dictates the result, if isn’t something random. Now as I said before there are cases that the first kiss could be snatched away, if a tragedy occurs or as you said in your example the girl kissed not by the main boy, but by his brother, but still …

the girl is first kissed by the main boy's brother instead and he tells her to erase it from her memory as her first kiss.

… that’s my point … he tells her to erase that memory, viz is something meaningful, and it shouldn’t have happened that way … it hurts them, so they want to forget. Even in the updated manga that you are referring to, despite the result that the main boy didn’t get the first kiss, still is a theme, and they are talking about it. It’s not dictates the result I suppose, but isn’t obviously that this example doesn’t have lots in commons with our case? And I don’t mean the result but the circumstances?
However if you wanted to point out that not always the first kiss dictates the final couple and it depends I won’t disagree with you … I already had covered that.

Still that doesn’t change my belief, based on the shoujo I’ve read thus far, that the first kiss under the right circumstances could be an “unbreakable contract”, meaning that the mangaka(s) are using it to foreshadow the end game. Of course if the boy in question is a rapist for example, or a secondary chara, sure isn’t gonna be the final winner haha … But I think we can easily distinguish in which cases the norm doesn’t apply …

Now specifically for the VK … I also believe that Hino is using the same “old-fashioned” cliché to depict the romance up to a point …That doesn’t mean that is boring and predictable … no. But she follows common rules.

But either way for the scene in question, the row of the events that bringing us to the first kiss and not only the first kiss itself, pinpoints on Kaname’s direction … As I said … Zero had the chance and the space to be the FIRST... in the 1st arc was on the spot light, but Hino chose to be Kaname … she saved that moment for an apex in her story … when she would reveal that Yuuki is a PB … the bloody kiss is a station in the story, you can’t deny this, it was one of the biggest revelations … a turning point lol. So what I’m saying is that isn’t only the “first” that it counts here but also that it was used as a climax … that alone proves …

a) That the first kiss is significant and meaningful even in the VK viz for Hino. (seems like the cliché “first kiss” applies in VK as well).
b) It was “saved” for Kaname on purpose (and then that first kiss followed from another one this time from the heroine)

"first" has the same significant cliche count now as "giving your handmade chocolate to 'the' boy", because you can no longer claim it ends all question on who will be endgame.

Now if you insist that the above scene which contains the “first kiss” has the same weight for the end game, under the disguise of a cliché, with the home made chocolate that Yuuki gave to Zero (btw home made chocolates the girls are giving also to their friends not necessarily to potential lovers lol) … then I have nothing more to add rather than, that makes me happy because IMO signifies on what hints Zekis are basing their ship.

Zero didn't "try" twice, he stopped himself from doing it once, the 2nd time he gets close to Yuuki he was going for the bite and Yuuki remembers the almost kiss.
http://www.mangareader.net/104-2155-24/vampire-knight/chapter-29.html
(correct me if you were referring to something else)

I’m not sure if it was twice … I was under the impression it was … maybe my memory betrays me here … If you say it was one I trust you as more expert in Zeki’s scenes haha. Either way doesn’t make any difference if it was one or two that he tried … the out come is the same. XD

@nina

I completely agree with your interpretations. now to add mine.

First Kiss
yes thanks for explaining this it's clearer to me now ~ I think this scene is symbolic and can define Zero-Yuki relationship in one go.
I also noticed the first kiss is important to demonstrate who took the girl most important moment first. See that Zero woke up from his nightmare of killing Yuki, and when Yuki shakes him he nearly kisses her... but stops. Why did he stop? What is stopping him? Ok, but if this happened in another setting that he stopped because of divine intervention, that is acceptable. But he stopped because he believed it wasn't right--that he was going in the way of Yuki's heart and humanity --he was giving way to them. This act of stopping actually depicts the beliefs that Zero had always shown towards Yuki throughout the entire manga -- that he is not for her. He believes this, he thinks Yuki is for Kaname, and he owes his life to her. It's a fact that prevails until now.
Yuki's reaction to the almost First Kiss is also symbolic. She blushes at the implications of the kiss, she was confused why Zero leaned forward as though to kiss her then stopped and he explained the strange behavior was just a nightmare, but this didnt help Yuki. She still thought what that could mean. I think there was a part in Yuki that wondered if the kiss was a kiss and not a result from a nightmare. That part was the moment where Zero has a chance to defeat Kaname.

But he stopped.

And this just proves the point that was always shown afterwards--- That he will always feel that Yuki is not the girl for him. He didn't even give Yuki the chance to decide who she loves more by confessing his feelings, instead, he pushed her more to Kaname. Yuki had options, no matter what options, she was free to love.
And Yuki, who was still left wondering what he meant by that kiss, fell for Kaname's love that returned her affections despite her hesitations, and ultimately claimed her. Despite everything, and I mean despite everything, Kaname had no hesitations, he was a vampire and she was a human, it was a taboo yet that didn't limit him. It doesn't matter if he was doing it because he was confident, the fact is that Kaname DID everything for the love. While Zero did nothing.
Its not that Zero is generous, or that he is selfless and he wants to give Yuki away. That's not relevant at all, the fact that he showed this generosity and reluctance to own her in the first place (Regardless of the circumstances) will always accentuate his role in the LT as bearer of the Unrequited Love.

Zero stomps on this role more as he kisses Yuki the final goodbye, where she doesn't kiss him back, and where she mentions she loves Kaname...

Yuki then breaks down crying when she realizes that Zero has feelings for her. I think those tears meant the chance Zero could've had, or it can just mean she feels sympathy. But nevertheless even with that or inevitably, she decides to go with Kaname.

Eternity/ Forever VS Mortality/ Limits
This 2 concepts can define YUME and ZEKI
Yuki's status as pureblood is the defining mark, Kaname as a pureblood makes their union "destined", they are the "right" ones for each other, while Zero as a level C/D/E vampire and also as a vampire hunter makes their union unequal, incompatible but not forbidden (1st arc human yuki and vampire zero biting each other was forbidden, but not now). It was emphasized that purebloods should be with purebloods for many reasons such as procreation, eternity, survival etc. while there were some references that point out the union of a pureblood and lower level vampire results in failure (Shizuka and her xhuman lover, Aido and the level E he had to kill, the vampire who bit a human in the day class and had to be put down, etc.) I believe this were all made to show how defining a status can be for a vampire or a human.

In this way not only is YUME supported by facts in the manga, it is also supported by logic. while ZEKI is supported by gut feeling, intensity, tension, familiarity and the entire "unequal means excitement" so in short, the more ZEKI looks like it has all odds against them, the more it looks exciting or provoking emotions, however it doesn't take away the fact that they're incompatible on context no matter how you turn the page around. I hope I'm making my point.

ZEKI is also forbidden love
...if Yuki has feelings for Zero while she is with Kaname. She is already starting to prove this if she will bite him, that means she committed adultery since Kaname and her are already a couple. In a sense that's forbidden love.

juliet wrote:
Here I want to say that if Hino considers ambiguity to be
fanservice, I tend to think is not. Because fanservice by definition
satisfies the fans, what and who does the ambiguity, in this case,
satisfies? because let's just detach ourselves from preference and see
it from the outside.

I base it more on the fact that both fandoms are hoping for an ending with the couple, this must be because the hope is still there and that alone is enough satisfaction to keep going.

LT as the Fanservice - It drags. the fact that its still called a Love Triangle means there's still hope Yuki will flip to Zero. You can't deny that. Yuki's constant flipping between Zero and
Kaname in her thoughts is a very example. The fact that ZEKIS are
saying, "You just weren't expecting that. We've known it all along that Yuki loves him" and YUMES are going "WTF i didn't see this coming! she was always thinking about kaname and now she goes Zero?" shows AMBIGUITY. Its not CLEAR. So it keeps both fandoms alive. She said she already loved Kaname and only want his blood - this is in the manga - she even remembered that promise, and now she just went for the blood on Zero's neck! she even went that far! But it doesn't fit some of the scenes. The half heart is ambiguous.
Some say "If the LT is over, then why is still there a second arc?" Lol despite that this question ignores there's still the plot to settle ... Yuki in the second arc didnt improve her relationship with zero, it wasnt showing hints of getting to a resolution (except now) and only now. i believe the second arc was made to mend this. what do you think is the purpose of the second arc in the LT other than its resolution?

But anyway, I also agree with you that this can be a Plot Device. In a way, its like a huge Cliff hanger on standby as a footnote.

I will reply to the rest later, I have to go now~~