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      is zero manipulating?

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      kanamekuranlover
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      is zero manipulating?

      Post by kanamekuranlover on Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:01 am

      First topic message reminder :

      in chapter 83 he clearly said that he wanted to kill kaname and then in chapter 84 when sara told him to kill kaname,he refused saying that he only wanted to hold him and not kill him.was this sudden change influenced by yuuki or he is just manipulating to remain in yuuki's goodwill??was is it?? Shocked

      nina
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      Re: is zero manipulating?

      Post by nina on Sat Aug 04, 2012 1:58 am

      mariangie wrote: Zero's personality doesn't allow him to manipulate most people . He can lie , but he has no art for making other people follow his suggestions easy . Zero is a piece in the V. K.'s Chess Game . Not an strategist .

      Agreed. Zero never gave me the feeling as being cut of for a strategic mind. He is a piece … a useful piece as Takuma underlined in this chapter lol.

      However IF he lied to Yuuki about his intentions regarding Kaname then this indicates manipulation because there would be the factor of the deception. It doesn’t have to be a great scale’s plan to be considered as manipulation … The deception and the lie would have made Zero’s behavior manipulative.

      Juliet wrote: The word "manipulation" is too heavy for Zero's case, I suppose, because it means that he influenced psychologically Yuuki and controlled her behaviour towards a certain direction> he did not manipulate her, because Yuuki had already her as her own goal to catch Kaname and stop him. So regardless of what Zero would do, she would do her effort also.

      Not necessarily … to influence someone towards a certain direction even if you have to gain something isn’t manipulation IF you are honest and letting the other party know your intentions and your gain from this.

      manipulation: shrewd or devious management especially for one’s own advantage.

      And that’s why you (and many of us) believe that >>

      Sara clearly manipulated Zero to get her target that was Kaname;

      Right. Why though? Isn’t cuz Sara manipulated him using deception?
      If not then there isn’t any manipulation from her because she was honest with him … she said clearly that she also wanted Kaname dead for her own reasons and closed a deal with him. If she didn’t deceive him -fueling his existent hatred for Kaname though (Zero wanted Kaname dead from the day one … it wasn’t Sara the one who created these feelings)- then where is her manipulation?

      Thus IMO it comes down to IF there was a lie i.e. deception or not in order to indicate manipulation in every case.

      For example let’s make the hypothesis that they (Zero and Yuuki) managed to capture Kaname and Zero afterwards had tried to kill him.
      Wouldn’t that have been a deception towards Yuuki since is crystal clear that Yuuki ONLY wants to capture him and not to kill him?
      Wouldn’t he have used/manipulated Yuuki and her powers to put down Kaname in order then to kill him?

      Ofc it didn’t happen that way… if not for any other reason just because Kaname released himself or cuz Yuuki wouldn’t let this to happen lol. However this wouldn’t unburden Zero from the deception hence the manipulation IF there was any.

      So we all have to see what Zero will do from now on or if there is gonna be an insight from his thoughts about the situation which will shed more light.

      I’m reading that isn’t in Zero’s character to do something like that blah blah blah … I bet that the same would support some fans if anyone had said awhile ago that Zero is lying. However the story showed that Zero IS capable to lie and moreover to lie for his own advantage … to lie to his superior at work … to lie hindering the investigation for the tablets … to lie in order to protect an evil PB who had turned HUMANS for PERSONAL reasons. << this is the ideal hunter? O.O

      Additionally … his action to drink from Sara … I remember that when some of us had supported that Zero will eventually drink Sara’s blood some fans refused strongly the possibility turning a blind eye to the hints, but this again happened … so I guess Zero did a lot of things recently that in the past would have seemed impossible for his character to do at least for some fans.

      The same goes for Kaname and many of us Yumes … sometime ago we couldn’t believe that Kaname would have left Yuuki … but he did it. Thus we cannot stick to formed opinions when the story develops differently.

      As for the statement

      Zero hasn't shown any intention to kill Kaname, as of now


      I won’t bring portions from the past cuz it will take me hours to gather ALL the lines that Zero declares his intention and wish to kill Kaname but only the most recent which btw it took place moments before the scenes of the last chapter!

      Zero: Bloody Rose suck ALL the blood out of that person
      http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-82-page-17.html

      Kaname: I won’t be killed by you
      http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-82-page-18.html

      http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-82-page-24.html

      Ignoring or turning a blind eye to the recent developments sticking to old notions doesn’t exactly indicate a good understanding of the characters either.

      We are all “biased” on a certain degree since we all have our likings but at least we should support our opinions with facts/scenes which are countering the provided arguments or else a plain subjective opinion doesn’t bear much validity.

      Ps. Who cares if Zero manipulated/lied to Sara??? Even if he had done that if it was for a good purpose he would have done great lol. Sara is a villain and she also wanted to manipulate Zero –something that she did on a certain degree- and moreover for evil stuffs.
      So if he lied to her; letting her believe that he’ll fulfill her evil goals whereas he had something else in mind, good for him … we shouldn’t criticize him but rather congratulate him hahaha


      Last edited by nina on Sat Aug 04, 2012 4:15 am; edited 1 time in total

      juliet
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      Re: is zero manipulating?

      Post by juliet on Sat Aug 04, 2012 2:25 am

      Not necessarily … to influence someone towards a certain direction even if you have to gain something isn’t manipulation IF you are honest and letting the other party know your intentions and your gain from this.

      manipulation: shrewd or devious management especially for one’s own advantage.

      I agree but if you dig into this deeper you shall see why the term manipulation is heavy;

      The key in order to determine if something is manipulation or not is this factor;

      manipulation is a type of social influence that aims to change the perception or behavior of others through underhanded, deceptive, or even abusive tactics.

      So did Yuuki changed her perception or behavior? no...

      Zero can lie to her yes, could have deceived her yes...but could he have manipulated her? NO..why because it did not change her perception or targets.

      Sara did change the perception that Zero had, actually she turned his reality upside down...

      when Sara approached Zero he had no intention to interfere, his reality was that he should leave the purebloods alone to be killed, but she managed to change that reality into "I need to get revenge for my parents death..I need to kill him"...















      I' ll show you a sweet dream next time

      shizza24
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      Re: is zero manipulating?

      Post by shizza24 on Sat Aug 04, 2012 2:41 am

      I agree with Shoujo and Mid. The notion that Zero's manipulating Yuuki is invalid. Zero has shown the capacity to put aside his hatred for Yuuki's sake. When Kaname first appeared in front of him in 79, the first thing Zero questioned him about was Yuuki's happiness. His revenge came in second. Given that he'd just discovered Kaname's involvement in his tragedy, it was huge for his character because it showed that Zero's feelings for Yuuki take precedence over his desire for revenge. Even Yuuki commented on how Zero had always been wishing for her happiness.

      So now, for him to use Yuuki to obtain revenge is a rather baseless argument given how, 1. Manipulation is not in Zero's character. 2. His feelings for Yuuki are above his hatred for Kaname or revenge. 3. Yuuki already knows Zero's intentions so there is no hidden agenda.

      Zero never stated he wanted to kill Kaname after discovering his involvement in his tragedy. That is because he held back his hatred for the sake of Yuuki's happiness. We could have argued that he might have wanted to kill Kaname since Zero never stated what exactly he wanted to do with Kaname (kill him or restrain him) but 84 made it clear that he wanted to restrain him.

      Sara tried to make Zero kill Kaname saying this was his opportunity to get his revenge . That Kaname was weak .Telling if Zero killed Kaname , this was the only way to get the love of the girl he desired . Here was when Zero noticed if he killed Kaname ; the thing he will in reality gain would be the hate of that same girl . As she loves Kaname . This fact let Zero make a choice he disliked . To not kill Kaname . To drop from his mind to follow the suggestions Sara gave him .

      I don't think Sara's words were regarding Yuuki. She had been constantly mentioning Ichiru's death and Zero's revenge in order to provoke Zero into killing Kaname. Everything in the story isn't necessarily about the LT. Zero was not trying to kill Kaname in order to be with Yuuki. Zero would never think like that. That was neither his intention, nor Sara's when she provoked him. It is only about Zero's revenge.


      @Zero's lying/deceiving: I think Zeki have always been honest with each other (except for maybe back when Zero didn't tell Yuuki he was turning into a vampire). Zero never told Yuuki what he planned to do with Kaname until 84 when he said he wanted to restrain him. So I don't see his lying to her as plausible. Zero would not gain anything from lying either. He wants to stop Kaname, Yuuki wants to stop Kaname. So there is no need for him to deceive Yuuki. Again, deception is yet another trait uncharacteristic of Zero.

      @Yuuki and Zero using each other: I think I would humbly disagree with this. Zeki have a similar goal: capturing Kaname. And hence they are working together to achieve it. It's as simple as that. It has absolutely nothing to do with manipulation or using each other or lying or deceiving. Both Zero and Yuuki know each other's intentions fully well and since their goals coincide, they decided to team up. That's all there is to it, really. Neither is manipulating, deceiving or using the other.

      juliet
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      Re: is zero manipulating?

      Post by juliet on Sat Aug 04, 2012 2:49 am

      @Zero's lying/deceiving: I think Zeki have always been honest with each other (except for maybe back when Zero didn't tell Yuuki he was turning into a vampire). Zero never told Yuuki what he planned to do with Kaname until 84 when he said he wanted to restrain him. So I don't see his lying to her as plausible. Zero would not gain anything from lying either. He wants to stop Kaname, Yuuki wants to stop Kaname. So there is no need for him to deceive Yuuki. Again, deception is yet another trait uncharacteristic of Zero.

      @Yuuki and Zero using each other: I think I would humbly disagree with this. Zeki have a similar goal: capturing Kaname. And hence they are working together to achieve it. It's as simple as that. It has absolutely nothing to do with manipulation or using each other or lying or deceiving. Both Zero and Yuuki know each other's intentions fully well and since their goals coincide, they decided to team up. That's all there is to it, really. Neither is manipulating, deceiving or using the other.

      Yuuki and Zero having the same goal; but didn't Zero wanted to kill kaname? what was all this fight about?

      I do not know about the last chapter when he says to Yuuki "Lets go get him", because he may saw that if he keeps trying to kill Kaname, Kaname shall never surrender to him so perhaps he let that go of that idea and placed his hopes to Yuuki to get him, I am not sure what he had intended to do afterwards...

      when Kaname says; I won't be killed by you and Zero that's enough, doesn't it show that Zero came to the scene with more lethal intentions? and even Ruka interferes so that this fight won't turn fatal for any side?






      I' ll show you a sweet dream next time

      nina
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      Re: is zero manipulating?

      Post by nina on Sat Aug 04, 2012 3:35 am

      Juliet wrote: I agree but if you dig into this deeper you shall see why the term manipulation is heavy;

      The key in order to determine if something is manipulation or not is this factor;

      manipulation is a type of social influence that aims to change the perception or behavior of others through underhanded, deceptive, or even abusive tactics.

      So did Yuuki changed her perception or behavior? no...

      I beg to differ lol

      You underlined only the influence that aims to change perceptions, behaviors etc but not the way that can this be achieved >> through underhanded, deceptive, or even abusive tactics. << there is the manipulation … to the means.

      Cuz I’m thinking … to influence someone or the society in order to change certain perceptions and behaviours ain’t bad always … great men and women, leaders in many fields science, politics etc didn’t have changed notions and perceptions of the mankind? Ofc they did … sometimes in a good way bringing developments/progress and sometimes in a bad way as well.

      However isn’t the influence that are exerting a priori manipulation but only when this happens through underhanded, deceptive, or even abusive tactics which also can resulted to something bad … a war for example, or racism etc.

      So to come back to our case hahaha a possible lie/deception from Zero towards Yuuki wouldn’t change her goal to capture Kaname I agree cuz this is her goal either way thus by lying or not wouldn’t change Yuuki’s goal BUT would she team up with Zero to capture him if she knew that afterwards he would try to kill him? … in other words would she become an accomplice to Kaname’s murder?
      Perhaps yes because she could think I can stop him (I mean Zero) but in any case she should know about his intentions before she makes her decision.
      And don’t think that even in this case Zero couldn’t kill Kaname … think what IF he would be able to do it … then how Zero's behaviour would be deemed?





      "... I want to fall down with you to the very farthest depths ... taint me too Kaname"



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      *wants to sneak under these bed sheets*

      kanamekuranlover
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      Re: is zero manipulating?

      Post by kanamekuranlover on Sat Aug 04, 2012 6:08 am

      nina wrote:
      Juliet wrote: I agree but if you dig into this deeper you shall see why the term manipulation is heavy;

      The key in order to determine if something is manipulation or not is this factor;

      manipulation is a type of social influence that aims to change the perception or behavior of others through underhanded, deceptive, or even abusive tactics.

      So did Yuuki changed her perception or behavior? no...

      I beg to differ lol

      You underlined only the influence that aims to change perceptions, behaviors etc but not the way that can this be achieved >> through underhanded, deceptive, or even abusive tactics. << there is the manipulation … to the means.

      Cuz I’m thinking … to influence someone or the society in order to change certain perceptions and behaviours ain’t bad always … great men and women, leaders in many fields science, politics etc didn’t have changed notions and perceptions of the mankind? Ofc they did … sometimes in a good way bringing developments/progress and sometimes in a bad way as well.

      However isn’t the influence that are exerting a priori manipulation but only when this happens through underhanded, deceptive, or even abusive tactics which also can resulted to something bad … a war for example, or racism etc.

      So to come back to our case hahaha a possible lie/deception from Zero towards Yuuki wouldn’t change her goal to capture Kaname I agree cuz this is her goal either way thus by lying or not wouldn’t change Yuuki’s goal BUT would she team up with Zero to capture him if she knew that afterwards he would try to kill him? … in other words would she become an accomplice to Kaname’s murder?
      Perhaps yes because she could think I can stop him (I mean Zero) but in any case she should know about his intentions before she makes her decision.
      And don’t think that even in this case Zero couldn’t kill Kaname … think what IF he would be able to do it … then how Zero's behaviour would be deemed?

      yeah he used yuuki people.see if he told her the truth that he wants to kill kaname after stopping him and that is it true intention yuuki would never team up with him despite of any horrible things that kaname did to him.here is already proven that she loves kana chan more than zero.she can never kill kana chan and zero kun but she won't agree with another person to kill another.zero did not said his true intentions,he said he wanted to turn him down,really?is that so zero kun?

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      Re: is zero manipulating?

      Post by Amaran on Sat Aug 04, 2012 7:01 am

      Maybe Zero changed his mind about killing Kaname because he realized that Kaname wasn't trying to kill him? Or because he found out that Kaname's actions now are to fulfill the Hooded Woman's "wish" so if anything Kaname is just deeply troubled? Or because it would hurt Yuuki? Or because he realized killing Kaname is not going to bring his family back?

      There are many possible reasons, all of which are infinitely more probable than Zero lying to manipulate Yuuki. He is not that type of person.

      I think it safe to assume that Zero only wants to capture Kaname. Zero said it himself and Yuuki said that she and him have the same objective.

      kanamekuranlover
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      Re: is zero manipulating?

      Post by kanamekuranlover on Sat Aug 04, 2012 7:40 am

      Amaran wrote:Maybe Zero changed his mind about killing Kaname because he realized that Kaname wasn't trying to kill him? Or because he found out that Kaname's actions now are to fulfill the Hooded Woman's "wish" so if anything Kaname is just deeply troubled? Or because it would hurt Yuuki? Or because he realized killing Kaname is not going to bring his family back?

      There are many possible reasons, all of which are infinitely more probable than Zero lying to manipulate Yuuki. He is not that type of person.

      I think it safe to assume that Zero only wants to capture Kaname. Zero said it himself and Yuuki said that she and him have the same objective.

      ok first zero do not know about hw and kaname's history,he knows a little about hw.yuuki and zero never had same objectives.yuuki is still a child.she thinks by her heart not by her brain.anyone can easily manipulate her.sara proved that.i don't see any development of yuuki.kana chan clearly asked her why she wants a bad girl like sara alive.
      zero cares only about his revenge otherwise he would not let sara enter the hunters association.ok maybe he changes his intention to be in good eyes of yuuki still he is not that good person.i think most people like zero because they haven't read manga and only saw anime zero.anime zero was really good,even i felt bad for him in end but manga zero is not that good person.i am not being biased with kana chan here,my thoughts on his bad things are lot more worse than zero but he proved that he is not saint.he is filthy too.

      i don't want specualation,i wanna know why he just don't state to yuuki that he wants to kill kaname.he doesn't have to kill him for yuuki but atleast he could have told her the truth and being honest about his intentions.he told to yuuki that he wanted to kill her but he didn't and he told kaname that he wants to kill him but lied in front of yuuki.that means in both the situations he lied,he lied to yuuki that he can kill her and he lied to her bout kaname that he does not wanna kill her.


      a pretty manipulating person. scratch

      he is ruled by his emotions.


      and on off topic::::::::
      i don't understand what he serves in the story except being a hindrance for yume.i mean in first arc there was a great use of him,he was needed to kill rido but what is his use in second arc? scratch
      he doesn't seem to do anything but on contrary doing things with yuuki that pretty much make no sense.i don't understand what hino is trying to do. scratch

      nina
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      Re: is zero manipulating?

      Post by nina on Sat Aug 04, 2012 1:22 pm

      @Kanamekuranlover

      yuuki is still a child.she thinks by her heart not by her brain.anyone can easily manipulate her.sara proved that.i don't see any development of yuuki.

      1. Yuuki isn’t a child anymore … she might not be a complete character YET (she wasn’t intended to be one from the start either way in order for us to see gradually her development) but she has matured pretty much and from what I see her actions are not driven from her emotions but rather the opposite … she’s trying to act using her brain. She carries away sometimes yes but for whom? Wasn’t for Kaname? Her feelings for Kaname were disorganizing her and she couldn’t capture him…
      Furthermore she isn’t manipulated from Sara … where did you see that? On the contrary she said that she doesn’t trust/like her even the moment she decided to protect her at the academy. She also discovered that she was the root of the tablets.
      So whatever she did with Sara it was her decision based to the knowledge she had at the moment and her beliefs hence it wasn’t a product of manipulation.
      I could even say that she didn’t fall into Sara’s trap because Sara did try to manipulate her … if you remember Sara approached Yuuki first by intriguing her with Kaname’s “sin” but Yuuki didn’t eat the cheese thus and Sara turned to Zero.

      Additionally she has a much better understanding of what is happening around her compared with the past.
      But we must judge her based on what she knows and not based on what WE know from the plot. The same goes for all the characters ofc.

      but manga zero is not that good person.i am not being biased with kana chan here,my thoughts on his bad things are lot more worse than zero but he proved that he is not saint.he is filthy too.

      2. Zero isn’t filthy or a bad person and neither Kaname.

      We as readers should be able to distance ourselves from the characters’ emotions or their outbursts if not for any other reason just because WE know much more aspects of the plot from what the characters know in most cases (well minus Kaname who knows more than we do lol)

      Personally I find Zero justified to want to kill Kaname and for characterizing him filthy simply because Zero doesn’t know the whole truth. And Kaname didn’t exactly enlighten Zero … on the contrary.
      On the other hand this doesn’t apply for the readers though cuz for them are provided more info.

      Even though I do believe that he acts emotionally and that he shouldn’t have put faith on Sara’s words however his hate now is more justified than in the 1st arc where I was finding his wish to kill Kaname illogical.
      My objection was about his timing and for siding with Sara not for wanting to kill Kaname since he believes that he destroyed his family.

      Therefore even if he lied to Yuuki about his intentions still this doesn’t deem him as manipulating or bad person overall not to mention filthy.

      In VK most of the characters are entering in the grey zone from time to time and IMO this is what is making them more realistic and humanish … not filthy, villains etc but realistic.
      The line between the villains/bad ones and the rest of them is pretty clear IMO and certainly Zero doesn’t belong in this category.
      We should be able to distinguish a bad action or judgment from a character; from characterizing him/her overall by it.

      i don't understand what he serves in the story except being a hindrance for yume

      And when did he become a hindrance for Yume???
      From what I see the hindrance for Yume is ONLY Kaname in this second arc.

      However, I agree that his role in the 2nd arc isn’t so important and neither his contribution on the plot.
      But I’m expecting to see him justifying his role as one of the three keys for co-existence … VK isn’t over yet.





      "... I want to fall down with you to the very farthest depths ... taint me too Kaname"



      Spoiler:

      *wants to sneak under these bed sheets*

      kanamekuranlover
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      Re: is zero manipulating?

      Post by kanamekuranlover on Sat Aug 04, 2012 3:38 pm

      nina wrote:@Kanamekuranlover

      yuuki is still a child.she thinks by her heart not by her brain.anyone can easily manipulate her.sara proved that.i don't see any development of yuuki.

      1. Yuuki isn’t a child anymore … she might not be a complete character YET (she wasn’t intended to be one from the start either way in order for us to see gradually her development) but she has matured pretty much and from what I see her actions are not driven from her emotions but rather the opposite … she’s trying to act using her brain. She carries away sometimes yes but for whom? Wasn’t for Kaname? Her feelings for Kaname were disorganizing her and she couldn’t capture him…
      Furthermore she isn’t manipulated from Sara … where did you see that? On the contrary she said that she doesn’t trust/like her even the moment she decided to protect her at the academy. She also discovered that she was the root of the tablets.
      So whatever she did with Sara it was her decision based to the knowledge she had at the moment and her beliefs hence it wasn’t a product of manipulation.
      I could even say that she didn’t fall into Sara’s trap because Sara did try to manipulate her … if you remember Sara approached Yuuki first by intriguing her with Kaname’s “sin” but Yuuki didn’t eat the cheese thus and Sara turned to Zero.

      Additionally she has a much better understanding of what is happening around her compared with the past.
      But we must judge her based on what she knows and not based on what WE know from the plot. The same goes for all the characters ofc.

      but manga zero is not that good person.i am not being biased with kana chan here,my thoughts on his bad things are lot more worse than zero but he proved that he is not saint.he is filthy too.

      2. Zero isn’t filthy or a bad person and neither Kaname.

      We as readers should be able to distance ourselves from the characters’ emotions or their outbursts if not for any other reason just because WE know much more aspects of the plot from what the characters know in most cases (well minus Kaname who knows more than we do lol)

      Personally I find Zero justified to want to kill Kaname and for characterizing him filthy simply because Zero doesn’t know the whole truth. And Kaname didn’t exactly enlighten Zero … on the contrary.
      On the other hand this doesn’t apply for the readers though cuz for them are provided more info.

      Even though I do believe that he acts emotionally and that he shouldn’t have put faith on Sara’s words however his hate now is more justified than in the 1st arc where I was finding his wish to kill Kaname illogical.
      My objection was about his timing and for siding with Sara not for wanting to kill Kaname since he believes that he destroyed his family.

      Therefore even if he lied to Yuuki about his intentions still this doesn’t deem him as manipulating or bad person overall not to mention filthy.

      In VK most of the characters are entering in the grey zone from time to time and IMO this is what is making them more realistic and humanish … not filthy, villains etc but realistic.
      The line between the villains/bad ones and the rest of them is pretty clear IMO and certainly Zero doesn’t belong in this category.
      We should be able to distinguish a bad action or judgment from a character; from characterizing him/her overall by it.

      i don't understand what he serves in the story except being a hindrance for yume

      And when did he become a hindrance for Yume???
      From what I see the hindrance for Yume is ONLY Kaname in this second arc.

      However, I agree that his role in the 2nd arc isn’t so important and neither his contribution on the plot.
      But I’m expecting to see him justifying his role as one of the three keys for co-existence … VK isn’t over yet.

      agree nina i wrote an exaggerated comment but i still think he lied to yuuki manipulating her.

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      Re: is zero manipulating?

      Post by shizza24 on Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:38 pm

      juliet wrote:
      @Zero's lying/deceiving: I think Zeki have always been honest with each other (except for maybe back when Zero didn't tell Yuuki he was turning into a vampire). Zero never told Yuuki what he planned to do with Kaname until 84 when he said he wanted to restrain him. So I don't see his lying to her as plausible. Zero would not gain anything from lying either. He wants to stop Kaname, Yuuki wants to stop Kaname. So there is no need for him to deceive Yuuki. Again, deception is yet another trait uncharacteristic of Zero.

      @Yuuki and Zero using each other: I think I would humbly disagree with this. Zeki have a similar goal: capturing Kaname. And hence they are working together to achieve it. It's as simple as that. It has absolutely nothing to do with manipulation or using each other or lying or deceiving. Both Zero and Yuuki know each other's intentions fully well and since their goals coincide, they decided to team up. That's all there is to it, really. Neither is manipulating, deceiving or using the other.

      Yuuki and Zero having the same goal; but didn't Zero wanted to kill kaname? what was all this fight about?

      I do not know about the last chapter when he says to Yuuki "Lets go get him", because he may saw that if he keeps trying to kill Kaname, Kaname shall never surrender to him so perhaps he let that go of that idea and placed his hopes to Yuuki to get him, I am not sure what he had intended to do afterwards...

      when Kaname says; I won't be killed by you and Zero that's enough, doesn't it show that Zero came to the scene with more lethal intentions? and even Ruka interferes so that this fight won't turn fatal for any side?

      As to the previous fight (ch. 82), we don't know for sure whether Zero wanted to kill Kaname. Plus, Kaname was the one who invaded the HA, so that gave Zero a justified reason to attack, because he had to defend the place.

      Last chapter Zero said "we have to stop that guy" so he never explicitly stated a desire to kill him. And it doesn't matter even IF Zero wants to kill him, that has nothing to do with the topic of this thread: manipulating Yuuki, a claim that is invalid.

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      Re: is zero manipulating?

      Post by Amaran on Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:47 pm

      To kanamekuranlover:

      Zero does know about Kaname's past.
      http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-82-page-15.html
      And about his connection to the Hooded woman.
      http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-83-page-11.html
      http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-83-page-12.html
      He's listening the entire time.

      You know, people can change their minds. Zero especially since he has said things he didn't mean and has acted rashly and then recollected himself afterwards. He is an emotional person and that is just who he is.
      Even though he was, at the beginning, emotionally compromised and Yuuki clearly saw that, she believes that he will set that aside and do the right thing. Yuuki trusts Zero.

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      Re: is zero manipulating?

      Post by aya-chan on Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:32 pm

      Zero does not manipulate at a large scale, however he did lie to yuuki, when he said that they shared the same goal. They do not have similar goals – yuuki tries to catch kaname but keeping him alive while zero wants to kill kaname. And zero wanting to kill kaname is proved by manga, through his actions and words.

      shizza24 wrote:Zero never stated he wanted to kill Kaname after discovering his involvement in his tragedy. That is because he held back his hatred for the sake of Yuuki's happiness. We could have argued that he might have wanted to kill Kaname since Zero never stated what exactly he wanted to do with Kaname (kill him or restrain him) but 84 made it clear that he wanted to restrain him.

      Actually zero expressed his wish to kill kaname, and if zero said in chapter 84 that the only reason he drank sara’s blood was just to hold kaname down, then zero lied again.
      Chapter 81, zero: “I will finish him off.”
      http://www.mangahere.com/manga/vampire_knight/v16/c081/31.html
      These are zero’s words immediately after he drank sara’s blood. “finish him off “= kill
      And zero’s words were followed immediately by his actions from the next chapter by attacking kaname with the intention to kill him.


      @Yuuki and Zero using each other: I think I would humbly disagree with this. Zeki have a similar goal: capturing Kaname. And hence they are working together to achieve it. It's as simple as that. It has absolutely nothing to do with manipulation or using each other or lying or deceiving. Both Zero and Yuuki know each other's intentions fully well and since their goals coincide, they decided to team up. That's all there is to it, really. Neither is manipulating, deceiving or using the other.

      I will repeat myself; zero and yuuki do not share similar goal. Zero said to yuuki that they have similar goal, however his previous actions and words proves that he lied to her. Through that lie he deceived yuuki who decided to team up with him in capturing kaname. Would have she team up with zero if she would have know that zero wants to kill kaname?


      As to the previous fight (ch. 82), we don't know for sure whether Zero wanted to kill Kaname. Plus, Kaname was the one who invaded the HA, so that gave Zero a justified reason to attack, because he had to defend the place.

      How I mentioned above, zero’s words from chapter 81, proves his expressed wish to “finish” kaname, hence killing him. and his actions from 82 make justice to his previous saying.
      The reason zereo attacked kaname wasn’t because kaname came into HA but because he wanted to have his revenge.

      Last chapter Zero said "we have to stop that guy" so he never explicitly stated a desire to kill him. And it doesn't matter even IF Zero wants to kill him, that has nothing to do with the topic of this thread: manipulating Yuuki, a claim that is invalid.

      Actually it have connection with the topic of this thead. Because here we are talking about zero lying to yuuki saying that they have similar goals when abviouly they do not have similar goal. Zero’s goal is to kill kaname. Maybe zero did not manipulate at a large scale but at a small one; however still manipulation/deception is.

      bloodredhead wrote:Thing is now Zero has had time to calm and collect himself. He's got a rein on his emotions after he parted from Yuuki when she went after Kaname. He's now thinking with his head more.

      I am confused; after which parting he got a rein of his emotions are you referring to? If you’re referring at the recent one, when he took sara to HA and drank her blood in front of others hunters, I do not see how could he think with his head more. He perfectly well knew what effects sara’s blood have on the ones who drink it, and he still drank the pure blood. I might say that he was reckless, and was ruled by his emotions.

      Zero is a professional hunter, he can't let his emotions rule his job or responsibility and he know's this so I feel this is another reason he changed his standpoint.

      But his recent actions – lying cross, ie covering sara in blood tablets matter; drinking sara’s blood in front of others; attacking kaname due to his hatred proves that zero is quite unprofessional.
      Siding with sara, lying for her, zero threw aside his responsabilities as hunter. Hunters role is to protect humans from the vampires who might harm them, and zero willingly sided with a vampire who harmed the human species – she turned humans into vampires unwinlingly; moreover hunters were suspicious about her. So I do not see how he’s professional, or responsible as hunter.


      Amaran wrote:

      Zero does know about Kaname's past.
      http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-82-page-15.html
      And about his connection to the Hooded woman.
      http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-83-page-11.html
      http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-83-page-12.html
      He's listening the entire time.

      Actually zero does not know about kaname’s detailed past; how yuuki does. What zero heard were just bit of pieces; he knows that exist a connection between kaname and bloody rose, or that kaname is an ancestor – sara mentioned about this is last chapter – but he doesn’t know full details about it.

      @nina - totally agree with you sLo_BigBearHug

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      Re: is zero manipulating?

      Post by juliet on Sun Aug 05, 2012 12:32 am

      nina wrote:
      Juliet wrote:

      manipulation is a type of social influence that aims to change the perception or behavior of others through underhanded, deceptive, or even abusive tactics.


      You underlined only the influence that aims to change perceptions, behaviors etc but not the way that can this be achieved >> through underhanded, deceptive, or even abusive tactics. << there is the manipulation … to the means.

      Cuz I’m thinking … to influence someone or the society in order to change certain perceptions and behaviours ain’t bad always … great men and women, leaders in many fields science, politics etc didn’t have changed notions and perceptions of the mankind? Ofc they did … sometimes in a good way bringing developments/progress and sometimes in a bad way as well.

      Yes I underlined it because underhanded, deceptive, or even abusive tactics do not stand on their own in order to prove manipulation. On the other hand it is noted by definition that...

      Social influence is generally perceived to be harmless when it respects the right of the influenced to accept or reject and is not unduly coercive. Depending on the context and motivations, social influence may constitute underhanded manipulation.

      So the weight falls in the influence and the change of goals, reality, opinion ect...as it is stated above.

      So to come back to our case hahaha a possible lie/deception from Zero towards Yuuki wouldn’t change her goal to capture Kaname I agree cuz this is her goal either way thus by lying or not wouldn’t change Yuuki’s goal BUT would she team up with Zero to capture him if she knew that afterwards he would try to kill him? … in other words would she become an accomplice to Kaname’s murder?

      No, she wouldn't...

      in order to be an accomplish she would have to actively and willingly take part in it ( i mean the act of murder, because until the murder, there would be no accuse even if both had tried to stop him)...Yuuki in the worst case scenario, would have become the victim...LOL...trying to protect Kaname... I guess, but either way since Zero's intentions never were to control her behaviour and perceptions, and even if he had, he did not succeed he can't be manipulating her (it's kind of sort like abuse there - you need a victim to prove it).


      Perhaps yes because she could think I can stop him (I mean Zero) but in any case she should know about his intentions before she makes her decision.
      And don’t think that even in this case Zero couldn’t kill Kaname … think what IF he would be able to do it … then how Zero's behaviour would be deemed?


      Didn't she know that his intentions from the previous fighting? So one case is that he lied and she believed him but regardless that there is no harm done so there is nothing to accuse here/ the other case is that he lied, she did not believe him and took her own risk, either way he would go, she would go, so what is there to stop? and the third case is that he did not lie and so there is no need to believe him either way. So one against two chances for Zero to have fooled her but nothing happened after all (until now). So is there a manipulation? Right now there is not there even a lie (with the suspicion only that Zero shoots back there with Takuma but it seems to have backfired? not sure)...meaning everyone is innocent until there is proof for the opposite. Let's wait and see in the next chapter we may see/hear and understand more.


      shizza24 wrote:

      As to the previous fight (ch. 82), we don't know for sure whether Zero wanted to kill Kaname. Plus, Kaname was the one who invaded the HA, so that gave Zero a justified reason to attack, because he had to defend the place.

      Last chapter Zero said "we have to stop that guy" so he never explicitly stated a desire to kill him. And it doesn't matter even IF Zero wants to kill him, that has nothing to do with the topic of this thread: manipulating Yuuki, a claim that is invalid.

      in order not to say the same things i think that Aya covers me there...

      manipulation for me is also invalid because it means control over others perceptions, reality of someone ect but he may have lied to her on that instance if his intentions were to kill Kaname and not get him. And since we are chatting over that, this factor would shook Zero's integrity, wouldn't it?






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      Re: is zero manipulating?

      Post by ButterflyWingsx on Sun Aug 05, 2012 1:09 am

      I can't see Zero's character as being manipulative...maybe it's due to the fact that everyone use him in the story. Why would he become the very thing he hates? We all know he hates Purebloods and how they use and throw away people. That would make him a hypocrite if he did.

      I agree that Zero lied about wanting to kill Kaname, but manipulating is too strong of a word here. At least that's what I think on the matter. So Zero lied to Yuuki, but no he didn't manipulate her.

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      Re: is zero manipulating?

      Post by mariangie on Sun Aug 05, 2012 4:45 am

      As I said before . There is no way for Zero to be manipulative . He has lied to cover for some of his actions . But none of Zero's lies or actions had changed any original opinion about people's perception of events .

      But Zero did wanted to kill Kaname . This was a huge reason why Sara decided to use Zero as her weapon to eliminate Kaname . Zero's desire of revenge . Including eliminating the one he hated the most . Sara did understand a lot of how Zero's mind worked . She had to give him a valid reason for Zero taking action against Kaname : being the main culprit of Zero's tragic past . What happened at chapter 84 was that Sara tried to refresh Zero's motivation for killing Kaname . When Sara told Zero that if he killed Kaname , the thing in front of him he wanted the most would be his . ( A huge translation mistake in the English online version . ) The thing implied to be Yuuki's . Zero decided to drop the "killing Kaname " attitude because he noticed if he killed Kaname . Zero would lose Yuuki forever . As she doesn't wanted to lose Kaname . Just stop him .

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      Re: is zero manipulating?

      Post by Shoujo-Zo18 on Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:13 am

      shizza24 wrote:
      juliet wrote:
      @Zero's lying/deceiving: I think Zeki have always been honest with each other (except for maybe back when Zero didn't tell Yuuki he was turning into a vampire). Zero never told Yuuki what he planned to do with Kaname until 84 when he said he wanted to restrain him. So I don't see his lying to her as plausible. Zero would not gain anything from lying either. He wants to stop Kaname, Yuuki wants to stop Kaname. So there is no need for him to deceive Yuuki. Again, deception is yet another trait uncharacteristic of Zero.

      @Yuuki and Zero using each other: I think I would humbly disagree with this. Zeki have a similar goal: capturing Kaname. And hence they are working together to achieve it. It's as simple as that. It has absolutely nothing to do with manipulation or using each other or lying or deceiving. Both Zero and Yuuki know each other's intentions fully well and since their goals coincide, they decided to team up. That's all there is to it, really. Neither is manipulating, deceiving or using the other.

      Yuuki and Zero having the same goal; but didn't Zero wanted to kill kaname? what was all this fight about?

      I do not know about the last chapter when he says to Yuuki "Lets go get him", because he may saw that if he keeps trying to kill Kaname, Kaname shall never surrender to him so perhaps he let that go of that idea and placed his hopes to Yuuki to get him, I am not sure what he had intended to do afterwards...

      when Kaname says; I won't be killed by you and Zero that's enough, doesn't it show that Zero came to the scene with more lethal intentions? and even Ruka interferes so that this fight won't turn fatal for any side?

      As to the previous fight (ch. 82), we don't know for sure whether Zero wanted to kill Kaname. Plus, Kaname was the one who invaded the HA, so that gave Zero a justified reason to attack, because he had to defend the place.

      Last chapter Zero said "we have to stop that guy" so he never explicitly stated a desire to kill him. And it doesn't matter even IF Zero wants to kill him, that has nothing to do with the topic of this thread: manipulating Yuuki, a claim that is invalid.

      I know, Kaname's the one who ran away after killing Lord Aidou, makring him as a dangerous vampire... and what does he do? He comes back and abuses the hunters to literally BREAK IN to the association! Zero, being the next in line to be head of the association of course has the right to be the one to defend it with all he's got. Everyone acts like Zero had no reason to attack Kaname and that HE was the one who found Kaname with intent to kill him... both men were in a fight to the death, Zero defending the hunter association AND himself, and Kaname... god only knows what his intentions were, I think he just wanted to find Sara and expected that Zero would get in the way... so he was just going to kill him, but of course, Ruka stopped him. If you were fighting for your life you would fight with the intent to kill, it's common nature right? O.O And Yuuki didn't team up with Zero til after that anyways... I remember her asking to stay beside him, and i also remember her telling zero to protect sara... i haven't seen anything so far showing that he has manipulated Yuuki. She didn't tell him he had to follow her orders on how he went about protecting Sara, nor does she control all of his actions... I don't think he has to tell Yuuki everything (ahem,like Kaname has been? Can anyone enlighten me of when he told Yuuki everything he is planning lol xD), the only thing she should know for now is that they are on the same side and Kaname is the one they both want to stop at all costs. Like Yuuki said, she can't be confused anymore and if she even thinks about what she'll do when she catches him, she won't be able to do it.... this is why she needs Zero there for her because she knows that at the last minute her feelings might get in the way and stop her from her goal. ^^ ( I remember her using Zero like this before ( I say "using" in a good way here; the way friends rely on each other, they use each other.) ... she had him come with her to confront Kaname about her past because she didn't want to be distracted by him..ah but that was a much more innocent time xD )

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      Re: is zero manipulating?

      Post by nina on Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:15 am

      I see that you remember only what it’s convenient >>

      Shoujo-Zo wrote: both men were in a fight to the death

      Wasn’t Zero himself who told Yuuki that Kaname didn’t want to kill him?

      I’m putting the portion of Senby’s translation cuz the English scanlation has a mistake there

      Zero: He didn’t want to kill me.
      Page 24
      Zero: He just wanted to manipulate me with that arrogant pureblood controlling power. The trap on the door is still active.
      http://vampire-knight.livejournal.com/999419.html


      So yes Zero … HE was the one who was fighting with the intent to kill Kaname whereas Kaname no.
      As for your interpretation that Zero was defending the HA lol his previous actions showed crystal clear that all he had in his mind was his REVENGE >>

      -Didn’t he lie to Cross BEFORE Kaname’s intrusion at the HA?
      -Didn’t he cover Sara by lying BEFORE Yuuki ask him to protect her for the time being?
      -Didn’t close the deal with Sara at the academy BEFORE Kaname’s intrusion at the HA?

      So please … what you said above contradicts with the facts of the story.





      "... I want to fall down with you to the very farthest depths ... taint me too Kaname"



      Spoiler:

      *wants to sneak under these bed sheets*

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      Re: is zero manipulating?

      Post by juliet on Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:24 pm

      I know, Kaname's the one who ran away after killing Lord Aidou, makring him as a dangerous vampire... and what does he do? He comes back and abuses the hunters to literally BREAK IN to the association! Zero, being the next in line to be head of the association of course has the right to be the one to defend it with all he's got.

      He better defend it now that he let Sara inside and brought all this damage to the hunters' side, because if it hadn't been for Zero and his attempt to get a personal revenge out of Kaname, Sara would NOT be in the HA. She used Zero's weakness to gain entrance to the hunters so that they can shield her>

      Zero knew that Kaname was after her and in this case Kaname does not do anything more than what he had been asked to do:

      Aido dono had asked him to stop Sara.

      Cross wish was also for Kaname to interfere with Sara; -Now i have volume 14..

      Kaien says: "We signed a treaty with Kaname, because we recognized him as the head of the vampires so I don't want him to overlook Sara's actions.."

      So the hunters better decide what they want; Zero should also decide what he wants; certain chapters now he speaks of revenge, he tries to Kill Kaname (that's certain), then chews his word when it comes to Yuuki;

      perhaps its a matter of translation, i am reserved, but he brought Sara inside; he got her blood, ZERO is responsible for the attack there and he has his own responsibility > No Sara there> NO HA attack.

      Now from what is it that he is trying to protect the HA from? from the "I want to get my revenge" or from "Why doesn't he stop Sara?" or from "Let the purebloods kill themselves", there has to be some logic in his attitude...






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      Re: is zero manipulating?

      Post by kanamekuranlover on Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:53 pm

      juliet wrote:
      I know, Kaname's the one who ran away after killing Lord Aidou, makring him as a dangerous vampire... and what does he do? He comes back and abuses the hunters to literally BREAK IN to the association! Zero, being the next in line to be head of the association of course has the right to be the one to defend it with all he's got.

      He better defend it now that he let Sara inside and brought all this damage to the hunters' side, because if it hadn't been for Zero and his attempt to get a personal revenge out of Kaname, Sara would NOT be in the HA. She used Zero's weakness to gain entrance to the hunters so that they can shield her>

      Zero knew that Kaname was after her and in this case Kaname does not do anything more than what he had been asked to do:

      Aido dono had asked him to stop Sara.

      Cross wish was also for Kaname to interfere with Sara; -Now i have volume 14..

      Kaien says: "We signed a treaty with Kaname, because we recognized him as the head of the vampires so I don't want him to overlook Sara's actions.."

      So the hunters better decide what they want; Zero should also decide what he wants; certain chapters now he speaks of revenge, he tries to Kill Kaname (that's certain), then chews his word when it comes to Yuuki;

      perhaps its a matter of translation, i am reserved, but he brought Sara inside; he got her blood, ZERO is responsible for the attack there and he has his own responsibility > No Sara there> NO HA attack.

      Now from what is it that he is trying to protect the HA from? from the "I want to get my revenge" or from "Why doesn't he stop Sara?" or from "Let the purebloods kill themselves", there has to be some logic in his attitude...

      he and yuuki are toddlers in front of kaname,well every vampire is.kaname is the age of their grand grand grand grand ....father plus he is intelligent,smart,hot ah....on your comment yes zero did something which were not right but revenge sometimes blackens mind.

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      Re: is zero manipulating?

      Post by Kara on Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:48 am

      Okay, I had been gone for quite a while, so it seems that I have a lot of catching up to do on this forum. There’s 3 pages of discussion in this thread that I haven’t responded to, so I had a lot to say within one post here. I’m going to try to cover as much as I can altogether here because I won’t double post. Smile

      So…Fair warning, this post is ridiculously long. Shocked

      And by long, I mean 10-posts-crammed-into-1-post ‘long’.
      But nobody likes reading through massively long chunks of text in one go, so I’ve categorized each of my replies in different sections. This way, you guys can choose to only read the aspects of this discussion that are of interest to you Very Happy

      (Also, I thought that putting a few sections to the side would enhance the readability of my post and minimize confusion).



      *********************************************************
      *********************************************************
      Firstly, I have decided to put my replies to some previous posts in a spoiler tab, because some aspects of the topic were beginning to expand into a new thread of discussion involving Zero that weren’t directly addressing the topic of this thread, but interesting to contemplate none-the-less. If I've quoted someone or myself, I put the quote within two double lines because the quote function doesn't work within a spoiler Crying or Very sad

      So here are my responses to previous posts already in this thread about:

      Zero’s Dedication to the Hunters:
      Spoiler:

      __________________________________________________________________________________________
      __________________________________________________________________________________________
      Nina said:
      Yes Zero till now was dedicated to his role as a hunter and controlled his personal feelings for Kaname.

      However after the recent chapters I do not know how much this still stands. Zero sided with Sara not for serving better his role as a hunter but for serving ONLY his need for revenge. Do his needs serve the greater good? Apparently no.
      And as Sara said; he might barking that he doesn’t take orders from PBs but the truth is that with his actions he PROTECTED her.

      And he protected her; what for? Cuz he ideologically is against the killings as Cross? No ofc … he protected her because that was their agreement and under this condition Sara gave her blood to him in other words his ONLY concern was to take his revenge being indifferent if he was helping synchronously an evil PB who harmed HUMANS. << Isn’t the greater obligation for every hunter to protect humans? I think it is.
      Plus as I said above he lied to his superior Cross, hindering or stalling the investigation about the tablets. Does this behavior indicate a role model for a hunter??

      So this statement >>



      --------------------
      Kara said:
      Zero is dedicated to his hunter duties, and wouldn't break the law (jeopardizing the system) to fulfill his own personal goals.

      --------------------



      >> sorry but his latest actions doesn’t prove your words … quite the opposite IMO.


      __________________________________________________________________________________________
      __________________________________________________________________________________________




      You’ve strayed a bit from the topic of this thread here, but I still think it’s an interesting point of discussion nonetheless.

      Here, your argument is that by agreeing to give Sara shelter and take her blood, Zero isn’t abiding by the mentality of a hunter. However IMO, as it is, Zero has been associated with Sara in a way that does not compromise his hunter values.

      Though it’s never been explicitly stated, we know that the Vampires Hunters are supposed to…well, hunt vampires. That’s just self-explanatory. Smile They were established all those years ago so that the humans could fight back against vampires who attacked. Therefore, the Hunters protect the humans. This is the general mandate the hunters operate under.

      Zero is one of the hunters. In choosing to accept the profession he was born into and committing himself to being a hunter, Zero accepts the role he plays in VK society; to protect humans, and to keep vampires in check. Thus far in the manga, he has stood by this.

      As for the reason why he associated with Sara:

      With a few exceptions (namely Kaien), most of the Hunters seem to hate vampires: in this way, I think they are prejudiced. We can gather that the vast majority of hunters were brought up to be distrustful of vampires. It is simply their ideology. Though Zero too was born into a prestigious hunter family and was brought up to be weary of vampires, Zero’s case is a little bit different; namely because he has had actual tragic encounters with vampires in his life. In Zero’s case, I believe his immense hatred for vampires can be understood. He has had legitimate experiences with vampires that support his belief in a pureblood’s ‘evil’.

      They believe vampires have the potential to be villainous, and are determined to keep them in check for the sake of humans. Keeping this context in mind….

      Zero is an individual as well as just another member of the Hunter Association. While he shares the goals of his co-workers, he also has his own personal goals, desires, etc. He has his own history and emotions. His reasons for hating purebloods, in my mind, is understandable. His desire to kill pureblood vampires (even those who may not have done wrong) isn’t entirely justifiable (IMO), but it’s understandable. I think we can agree that his own personal hatred and impulsive urges aren’t the noblest of actions for Zero to undertake. But thus far, he hasn’t acted in a way that could throw his loyalty to the hunters into question.



      __________________________________________________________________________________________
      __________________________________________________________________________________________
      Nina said:
      Zero sided with Sara not for serving better his role as a hunter but for serving ONLY his need for revenge.

      __________________________________________________________________________________________
      __________________________________________________________________________________________



      Not necessarily. Yes, to obtain power was the main reason why Zero drank from Sara and agreed to shelter her within the Hunter Association.

      I think we can gather from Zero’s comment in Chapter 84 that Zero’s reason for associating with Sara wasn’t in swearing allegiance to her, but to obtain enough power to potentially be of use in attempting to capture Kaname.

      As an added extra, he might later use that acquired power to further his own goals. But thus far he has not, and Zero never harboured no loyalty for Sara. Now, after her death in Chapter 85, he never will.

      His revenge was his reasoning here, but it wasn’t to do with his role as a hunter. His president however, has always strongly wished for co-existence among the two races and isn’t against protecting pureblood’s, so what Zero did is not in violation of his hunter obligation.



      __________________________________________________________________________________________
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      Nina said:
      Sara gave her blood to him in other words his ONLY concern was to take his revenge being indifferent if he was helping synchronously an evil PB who harmed HUMANS.

      __________________________________________________________________________________________
      __________________________________________________________________________________________



      Yes, Zero previous agreement with Sara was a personal decision, not a decision as a representative of the hunters. Zero was (and is) still reeling from the discovery of Kaname’s involvement in the deaths of his family.

      Yes, he took blood from Sara and made an agreement with her.
      But he was still careful to act within the confines of Hunter laws and beliefs.

      Firstly, before Chapter 84 (when Sara publicly professed her true intentions), neither the vampires or the hunters knew that Sara is a villain. Until that moment in Chapter 84, the only person who knew that Sara was actually a real threat to humans (as he had actually seen what Sara had done to them) was Takuma. Therefore saying that Zero was ‘helping an evil PB who harmed HUMANS’ is an invalid argument because:


      a) Zero (or any of the hunters) did not know that she had ever harmed a human.


      The Hunters had suspected (surmised without evidence) that Sara may have been involved in the murder / suicide incident where a Hunter Woman’s life was sacrificed at the Banquet. But they had no proof. Only we, as readers, knew of her involvement. And it is only the readers who knew about Sara’s prison. So even though he was distrustful of her, Zero, also had no way of knowing what Sara had done. Therefore, Zero was not merely being ‘indifferent’ to potentially helping a pureblood who harmed humans. To imply that Zero would make an agreement with someone and wouldn’t care if that person hurt humans is unfair, because Zero didn’t know about the crimes Sara has committed and covered up.


      And…


      b) Zero never ‘helped’ Sara. When Sara launched an attack on Kaname, Zero did not cooperate or offer her any assistance in that regard. The most he ever did was agree to put her in a HA jail cell which didn’t exactly protect her. At most, he inadvertently shielded her by putting himself between Kaname and his target to capture him; just as Yuuki was doing. In this way and by this logic, Yuuki would have also been helping Sara. By putting your last 3 words in bold, you are implying that Zero played a role in ‘synchronously helping’ Sara to inflict harm. In what way has Zero helped Sara harm a human?

      The only human Zero knew Sara was using was Hanadagi’s bodyguard, and she was a special case. She was not an ordinary human in that she was a servant of a pureblood; something I’m sure Zero doesn’t approve of. Nonetheless, she was still a human who was injured as a result of a pureblood, so Zero arranged for her to be taken Kaito and the safety of the hunters. That proved, to me at least, that his loyalty to the hunters’ mandate was stronger than his agreement with Sara.

      Additionally, it’s not against the law for a vampire to drink blood from another consenting vampire.

      My perception is that Zero took Sara’s blood for two reasons (neither of which have anything to do with his role as a hunter).


      Reason 1:

      We do have to remember that Zero is a vampire; he does need blood. That doesn’t make him an incompetent hunter. Yes, Zero’s body can now absorb the blood tablets. But we’ve seen his thirst for blood reach such a level that even being in the proximity of Yuuki for mere moments had him gasping and collapsing against a tree trunk
      Kaien, Kaito, Maria and even Yuuki have made a lot of comments about how Zero is struggling to suppress his need for blood. Despite
      Hino has given her readers reason to believe that it might not have been enough to fully stabilize Zero. There is still the potential for him to descend to Level E status.


      Reason 2 (His MAIN reason):

      To obtain power, which he said in Chapter 84 was so that he might have the ability to hold Kaname down. With Zero and Yuuki running off after Kaname together now, it’ll be interesting to see another uninterrupted confrontation if Zero and Yuuki succeed in tailing Kaname.



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      Nina said:
      Plus as I said above he lied to his superior Cross, hindering or stalling the investigation about the tablets.

      __________________________________________________________________________________________
      __________________________________________________________________________________________




      I do understand what you’re saying here, and you do have a point.
      But I don’t personally believe that was evidence of Zero rebelling against his obligations as a hunter. It wasn’t as if Zero wrongly defended Sara against any allegations. But he was hiding his suspicions about the tablets’ connection to Sara, yes. Nothing had been verified, and Zero planned to make an agreement with Sara. But he still actually did his job. Because at the same time he was, in a way, carrying out his own investigation. He recognized the danger these new tablets presented, and he was helping put a stop to the tablets’ distribution. (As seen in Chapters 76 >> onwards).

      Sara had wanted to use Zero’s help for a while now, and she believed Zero to be a tentative ally to her. By allowing her to believe that he could be manipulated, he was in a position where he kept a close eye on her without arousing her suspicions.

      In the end, he did actually gain more information from her. It just wasn’t the information he was expecting.

      Through it, it wasn’t as if he was ever loyal to her, as we saw in Chapter 84. And now she’s dead, so he’s never going to side with her.



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      Nina said:
      Isn’t the greater obligation for every hunter to protect humans? I think it is.

      __________________________________________________________________________________________
      __________________________________________________________________________________________




      You are entirely correct in thinking this. Smile The Hunter’s Guild was established for the protection of humans from vampires.
      In what way has the safety of humans been jeopardized since Zero had been keeping his eye on Sara?

      Zero would never do anything to hurt a human; even right now, when he is no longer a prefect, he is ensuring the welfare of the Day Class by monitoring the vampires on campus. Smile




      __________________________________________________________________________________________
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      Nina said:
      Does this behavior indicate a role model for a hunter??

      __________________________________________________________________________________________
      __________________________________________________________________________________________



      It’s important to differentiate here between whether Zero is dedicated to being a hunter and whether he is a good role model.

      As things stand at the moment, I don’t think that he is a good role model for younger hunters. He bottles up his emotions, he is stoic, vampirically unstable and he keeps a gun underneath his pillow. That’s not how young hunters will aspire to be like Razz

      Even Zero himself doesn’t like the idea of becoming the new Hunter Association president. He doesn’t want to be in charge, and the job as a ‘role model’ which the job would entail.
      Zero holds grudges and seeks revenge.


      *********************************************************

      To summarize:

      Now and with the comment in my previous post, my point is that Zero has never broken Hunter laws. Zero was born into a prestigious hunter family; he grew up learning the ways of the hunters. Now, with his family gone, being a hunter is all he has left. It is his only purpose now. Crying or Very sad


      This page here summarizing exactly how Zero feels about Purebloods:

      http://www.mangareader.net/104-2163-12/vampire-knight/chapter-37.html


      His perception of Purebloods is that they are arrogant, and that they feel they are allowed to do what they please with their abilities, no matter the consequences for the human.

      We have to remember that Zero truly believes that Purebloods are evil creatures who harm people, and thinks they deserve to die for trifling with the lives of humans. He wants to finish off as many purebloods as he can when given reason to. Yes, it is because he seeks revenge; against Kaname in particular. But we must remember that he believes that if the Purebloods were gone, the humans would be saved from ever having gone through what Kaito’s brother went through, what happened to Yagari’s fiancé, and what happened to Zero.

      Yet he still will only act through the appropriate channels. Because if he were not a hunter, Zero feels that he has no other reason to live.


      In short, I strongly believe that Zero has flaws like every other character. He’s made plenty of mistakes throughout this manga. But thus far is record of job as a hunter has been impeccable.
      Zero has never and would never compromise his place among the Hunter’s Guild. So I don’t see how Zero’s dedication to his job as a hunter could possibly be questioned here.


      Zero’s Love For Yuuki:
      Spoiler:

      __________________________________________________________________________________________
      __________________________________________________________________________________________
      Kara said:
      Zero does love Yuuki; he once said that his deepest desire was to see her smile from the bottom of her heart. Hurting the man that Yuuki loves is not going to make her happy by any means.

      He knows that Yuuki loves Kaname, so Zero must realize how much pain Yuuki would feel if any harm came to Kaname. Although Zero truly hates Kaname, he loves Yuuki. In this way, I imagine that Zero is torn. We'll have to see which side of Zero wins out in the end; Zero's desire to take revenge on Kaname, or Zero's reluctance to see Yuuki sad.


      Nina said:
      True … those were his feelings in the past, but currently are still the same? Because you are referring on something that Zero said when Yuuki was still HUMAN.
      According with his updated thoughts probably no.

      Didn’t he think (hours ago) >> “why did I have that wish?” (i.e. wishing for Yuuki’s happiness beside Kaname)

      In other words NOW he is questioning his older stance and right after that thought he gave his hand to Sara sealing the deal with her >> “I’ll help you and you will give me your blood in order to take my revenge/kill Kaname >> kill Yuuki’s happiness; stretching it further …

      True … those were his feelings in the past, but currently are still the same? Because you are referring on something that Zero said when Yuuki was still HUMAN.
      According with his updated thoughts probably no.

      Didn’t he think (hours ago) >> “why did I have that wish?” (i.e. wishing for Yuuki’s happiness beside Kaname)

      In other words NOW he is questioning his older stance and right after that thought he gave his hand to Sara sealing the deal with her >> “I’ll help you and you will give me your blood in order to take my revenge/kill Kaname >> kill Yuuki’s happiness; stretching it further …
      __________________________________________________________________________________________
      __________________________________________________________________________________________





      There are many threads already existing in his forum about whether or not Zero still has feelings for Yuuki. So I won’t enter much into this branch of discussion while posting in a thread solely about Zero’s recent actions. Some fans believe there have been hints that Zero loves Yuuki still, other fans think otherwise. Very Happy

      ---
      There have been arguments both ways in these threads here:

      "Do you think Zeki is over?"
      http://vampireknight.all-up.com/t867-do-you-think-zeki-is-over

      "Will Zero claim Yuuki?"
      http://vampireknight.all-up.com/t1010-will-zero-claim-yuuki

      "Yuuki’s relationship with Zero (chapter 73-74)"
      http://vampireknight.all-up.com/t779-yuki-s-relationship-with-zero-chapter-73-74

      "Zero and Yuuki: Will they end up together?"
      http://vampireknight.all-up.com/t888-zero-and-yuuki-will-they-end-up-together

      "Yuuki and Zero’s romance"
      http://vampireknight.all-up.com/t334p240-yuuki-and-zero-s-romance#33523
      ---

      While I’m not certain about what Yuuki might feel, I personally believe that (while he won’t even admit it to himself), Zero still loves Yuuki. I don’t think that inner dialogue ‘Why did I have that wish?’ as you referred to was a shift in stance; rather, I believe it to be a continuation of his emotional denial. But whether or not anyone else believes that is entirely up to all of you. I won’t attempt to sway anyone in their opinion of their relationship.

      For now, I personally agree with Mariangie’s comment in particular when in relation to this thread:




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      Mariangie said:
      Zero did wanted to kill Kaname . His main drive at this moment of the story is revenge from whatever Kaname did to him in the past : his family , his brother , himself . But at the same time , Zero has this conflict of being in love with the enemy's " sister " . The one who is the love object of the same guy he hates more in the world . Making that same guy his love rival for the affect of that girl .

      So what happened ? Sara tried to make Zero kill Kaname saying this was his opportunity to get his revenge . That Kaname was weak .Telling if Zero killed Kaname , this was the only way to get the love of the girl he desired . Here was when Zero noticed if he killed Kaname ; the thing he will in reality gain would be the hate of that same girl . As she loves Kaname . This fact let Zero make a choice he disliked . To not kill Kaname . To drop from his mind to follow the suggestions Sara gave him .

      __________________________________________________________________________________________
      __________________________________________________________________________________________




      I think you covered that well Mariangie, so thank you Smile
      I believe it to be a valid possibility. The reason I briefly alluded to this in the first place was because if Zero did still feel something for Yuuki, that could act as a deterrent from killing Kaname, or at least give Zero a reason to hesitate. But it’s still speculation, formed on the basis that Zero does still harbor love for Yuuki. So I’ll leave this stance alone for the time being. I don’t have anything more to add right now…


      Zero’s Intelligence:
      Spoiler:

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      __________________________________________________________________________________________
      Kara said:
      Zero's very intelligent. I think he knows that he doesn't have the strength to win a one-on-one battle with Kaname (at least, not at this stage).

      Nina said:
      Well he didn’t know … he had to learn by trying haha
      So should I question his intelligent as well?
      ________________________________________________________________________________________
      __________________________________________________________________________________________




      I don’t believe readers should be making insinuations about Zero’s intelligence. We know from the first arc that Zero was always a very academic student, and a very highly-ranked student in his class. To have that sort of position, Zero evidently must possess a high degree of distinction in his academic studies. Remember that he also used to tutor Yuuki to keep her grades satisfactory Smile

      Anyway, to address the exact scenario in question, I have to agree with ButterflyWingsx’s comment here:




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      __________________________________________________________________________________________
      ButterflyWingsx said:

      I wonder if Zero even know that Kaname is the ancestor and that he has tremendous amount of powers.
      ________________________________________________________________________________________
      __________________________________________________________________________________________




      I’m wondering the same thing. Thus far, Zero’s attempts on Kaname’s life have taken place only within the first arc of the story; at the aftermath of the battle against Rido. It was at this time that Zero had only recently came across Kaname biting Yuuki and had discovered Yuuki’s true identity as a pureblood vampire. At that time, Kaname was merely dorm president of the Night Class and ‘last’ known member of the Kuran family. Most people only think that Kaname is the son of Juuri and Haruka; that he is an 18-19 (approximately) year old pureblood vampire.

      How could Zero have known then that Kaname possessed the colossal power of an ancestor? Not even the readers or Yuuki knew that at that point. It was not common knowledge that Kaname was an ancestor. So I don’t see how you could expect Zero to have known that. He probably still doesn’t know; the hunters certainly don’t. Kaname’s status as ancestor is a clandestine truth shared only with readers and Yuuki.

      Also, in direct relation to the battle in recent chapters:
      Just because Zero knows that he most likely won’t be able to defeat Kaname, it’s not as though Zero could just sit idly by while Kaname’s invasion of the Hunter Association was taking place. scratch

      First, Zero won’t run away from a fight. Zero himself as said that being a hunter is the only way he stays in control. He’s been suicidal before. Zero has nothing to lose.
      Second, Zero is duty bound to attempt to hold back Kaname from breaching HA security; just like all the other hunters who were shown trying to do (Chapter 82, Page 7 and 8.). A hunter in that chapter was even confused by the rumor that they should leave Kaname be and allow him to enter the HA:

      Hunter: “But our job is to stop vampire invasions!”

      This is what Zero was doing, just like the majority of the other hunters. It’s just that Kaname barely had to even lift a finger to dispatch the other hunters, while Zero is the only one with another power to slow Kaname down.

      Meanwhile, a few of the lower hunters were considering just standing by and letting the purebloods attack each other. Zero actually agrees with their views that purebloods should just be allowed to destroy each other, yet he still did what he was told regardless. Smile

      ---

      So I think that this also ties in with Zero’s dedication to being a hunter. Also, to directly respond to your comment, I’ll just post a reminder that Kaname Kuran is thousands of years old and the most powerful vampire in existence. Even just to be an inconvenience for Kaname would require a massive amount of strength. So for Zero Kiryuu (an 18-year-old Level D) to have hindered a Level A Pureblood ancestor for even a brief time like Zero did in Chapter 82 is an amazing feat. cheers


      Zero’s Hatred of Kaname:
      Spoiler:

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      Nina said:
      Personally I find Zero justified to want to kill Kaname and for characterizing him filthy simply because Zero doesn’t know the whole truth. And Kaname didn’t exactly enlighten Zero … on the contrary.
      On the other hand this doesn’t apply for the readers though cuz for them are provided more info.

      Even though I do believe that he acts emotionally and that he shouldn’t have put faith on Sara’s words however his hate now is more justified than in the 1st arc where I was finding his wish to kill Kaname illogical.

      ________________________________________________________________________________________
      __________________________________________________________________________________________




      I agree with you completely here Smile I never fully comprehended why Zero’s hatred for Kaname in particular was so immense in the first arc. I suppose I just put it down to Zero’s rather impetuous nature.

      Because back then, both the readers and Zero were unaware of Kaname’s involvement in Shizuka’s release. So I had assumed his hatred of Kaname was only because he was just another pureblood; which, in a way, was a bit discriminatory on Zero’s part. During the first arc, Zero detested Kaname for Shizuka’s actions and had wished to kill / punish Kaname just for being a pureblood vampire (when at the time, Zero didn’t think Kaname had done anything to him personally).

      Now, however, I think Zero’s specific hatred of Kaname finally has a basis. I definitely don’t like that Zero wants to kill our Kaname, but now we can gain an appropriate understanding; Zero seeks revenge and wants to (vicariously, as Shizuka is dead) avenge his family.



      *********************************************************
      *********************************************************



      Alright, moving on…

      Now to address the prominent theme permeating this thread; Has Zero been manipulating Yuuki in recent chapters?
      This question arose from the ambiguity surrounding whether or not Zero was trying to kill Kaname in Chapter 84, so this is where I’ll begin. While this is definitely relevant to the topic of this thread, I’ve again put the majority of my point of view on this in a spoiler tab so that this post doesn’t get too long and hard to read Razz

      (And before I respond, I want everyone to know that everything I’m about to say is my interpretation of Zero’s stance in recent chapters, as we as readers have not had any ‘inner thoughts’ from Zero regarding his actions).

      The Great Debate lol!
      Was Zero trying to kill Kaname in Chapter 84?

      Spoiler:


      It’s important to distinguish the difference between actions and intentions, as well as between personal wants and goals. I believe these things to be true:


      Zero wants to kill Kaname.
      Zero’s current aim is to capture Kaname; a goal he shares with Yuuki.

      They are not one and the same thing.


      I don’t believe Zero was trying to kill Kaname in Chapter 84. He has attempted to kill Kaname in the first arc. Now that Zero knows of Kaname’s involvement in Shizuka’s release, we could be yet to see Zero make another attempt to kill him before Vampire Knight draws to a close. Killing Kaname may be a long-term goal for Zero, sometime when he can justify his actions to the other hunters within the confines of the law. But right now, Zero is respecting his role as a hunter and obeying orders. All the other hunters in Chapter 83 / 84 were doing the same thing (willingly or not).

      Chapter 84 saw Yuuki acknowledging once again that she and Zero had mutual interests, and Yuuki requested to join Zero’s side. We know that Yuuki would never, ever co-operate with an assassination attempt on Kaname. To try such a thing would instantly turn Yuuki against the hunters and give them a new pureblood enemy. In that situation, Yuuki would effectively be at war with the hunters. She would be in danger, and Kaien would never allow that (being in charge of the Hunter Association and giving orders to all hunters including Zero), Yuuki is still his adopted daughter.




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      Nina said:
      But the question are >>
      Does he still want to kill Kaname?
      Did he try to kill him?

      If yes then he manipulated Yuuki because he let Yuuki believe that his aim was not to kill Kaname but to capture him. He ensured her assistance by lying or if you like by covering the whole truth because he saw that he cannot overpower Kaname even with Sara’s blood in his system so he needed help. Yuuki’s reaction when Sara disclosed what Zero had done showing her surprise clearly.


      ________________________________________________________________________________________
      __________________________________________________________________________________________




      There are a few aspects of your post that I will address separately to properly clarify my point.




      ________________________________________________________________________________________
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      Nina said:
      But the question are >>
      Does he still want to kill Kaname?
      Did he try to kill him?


      ________________________________________________________________________________________
      __________________________________________________________________________________________




      The answer to your first question
      (Does he still want to kill Kaname?) is obviously yes.
      The answer to your second question
      (Did he try to kill him?) is just as obviously no.

      Yes, it is true that Zero has tried to kill Kaname in the past (in the first arc), and with Zero’s current level of anger and pain, we may see him attempt to kill Kaname sometime before VK comes to its conclusion.

      But the question here is referring to whether or not Zero was trying to kill Kaname in Chapter 83 and 84, which is not true. Zero was attempting to capture Kaname in Chapter 84, and he called for Yuuki to help him with that. Yuuki would never agree to help him kill Kaname.


      I think we have two lines of dialogue from Zero that I feel can assure us of this: cheers



      Chapter 82, Page 13- The scene where Zero makes his entrance and confronts Kaname.


      Zero: “Get him, Bloody Rose.”




      *****

      Definition of ‘get’:

      (Verb)

      To come; to possess; to have or hold (something); receive

      Sentence examples:

      "I got the impression that she wasn't happy"
      and
      “My daughter wants to leave the shops, so I will go and get her.”


      Synonymous with:

      obtain - gain - take – collect - receive – capture - acquire – come into possession of

      *****


      Very Happy

      The primary meaning of ‘get’ is ‘to come into possession of’; or in Zero and Yuuki’s case, to capture Kaname.

      Another line of dialogue from Zero I think we should consider is this:

      In Chapter 84 (Page 21), Zero has just rebuked Sara for attempting to control him. She effectively asks him to fulfill his desire for vengeance by killing Kaname, and he defies her, saying:



      Zero: “I wanted power to hold him down. And for that, your blood was necessary.”



      There, Zero expressly stated the reason he took Sara’s blood. His reason for drinking Sara’s blood was so he could hopefully obtain enough strength to hold Kaname down.

      So my point here is that yes, Zero still wants to end Kaname’s life to this day, but that is not his current goal. It’s entirely possible that we are yet to see Zero make an attempt at Kaname’s life sometime in future chapters, but only if he finds a justifiable reason or opportunity to do so under hunter obligation.

      Because like I said in my previous post, in this case what Zero wants and what is the right thing to do are not the same thing. Zero knows and accepts this, even if it makes him unhappy. Zero has said so himself that he can’t kill Kaname now, because it would cause chaos in their society.



      http://www.mangareader.net/104-2178-25/vampire-knight/chapter-50.html



      Kaien: “I was thinking you might go and say something along the lines of, ‘If he (Kaname) is coming out into the open, I’m going to kill him for sure’.”


      Zero: “No, I won’t yet. We need the bloodsuckers to behave. If, for that, we need him alive, then for now I’m willing to let him.



      Zero realizes here what is necessary and is mature enough to temporarily put his own personal grudge aside for the placation of vampire society, which was still in a state of disarray a year subsequent to the vampire council’s destruction. Sad

      Obviously this scene occurred around half a year before the current time in the story (and before Zero discovered Kaname’s connection to the death of his family), but the principle remains the same. I don’t think there has been any sufficient evidence to suggest that this has changed so far. scratch

      Whatever Kaname’s plans currently are, he is still the ruler of the vampires. If vampire society is left without an authoritive figurehead (even for just a brief time) there would surely be chaos and the safety of humans would be compromised.

      Additionally, as of now Kaname can’t die because (in the eyes of the hunters) he has too much to answer to. The hunters wish to interrogate him in order to discover his plans and reasoning for his previous actions.

      Even though Zero does wish to see Kaname dead, I think that Zero will consistently side with the remainder of the hunters for the time being.

      This theory is in no way an endorsement of Zero, but I believe it to be a valid possibility and, in turn, an addition argument as to why Zero wasn’t and isn’t trying to kill Kaname as of Chapter 84.





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      aya said:
      Actually zero expressed his wish to kill kaname, and if zero said in chapter 84 that the only reason he drank sara’s blood was just to hold kaname down, then zero lied again.
      Chapter 81, zero: “I will finish him off.”
      http://www.mangahere.com/manga/vampire_knight/v16/c081/31.html
      These are zero’s words immediately after he drank sara’s blood. “finish him off “= kill
      And zero’s words were followed immediately by his actions from the next chapter by attacking kaname with the intention to kill him.



      ________________________________________________________________________________________
      __________________________________________________________________________________________





      Umm…you are mistaken here. Sorry Crying or Very sad That was not Zero who was speaking; it was Sara. The last speech bubble on that page is a continuation of the dialogue in the top right panel; Sara’s words to Zero as he drinks her blood.

      The translation on that particular scanlation you referenced didn’t properly differentiate the pronoun there on the last page, so it could have easily lead to confusion; particularly if the translation in question was indirect (e.g. from Japanese to Chinese to English). Japanese is quite a subtle language and is frequently dependant on context. Many different meanings can be expressed within a single sentence, and the correct translation depends on the speaker and situation (which can occasionally be lost in translation). So that particular scanlation you referenced could be easily misunderstood. :'(

      The actual dialogue was this:



      Sara: “The man who took everything away from you…finish him off.”



      The ‘I’ll’ shouldn’t be there; it was an error in translation, (just like the error in Chapter 83, when Zero realized that Kaname ‘wasn’t going to kill me’, but the english scanlation changed it to ‘Kaname was going to kill me’; a big difference, haha Very Happy)

      This particular error here isn’t present in any of the other English scanlations. scratch

      Before the manga is published in volumes, the English scanlations are done by devoted fans who are kind enough to translate for the rest of us. They try to get it completed and online as quickly as possible so, understandably, there are occasionally errors. Like on this page, the ‘I’ll’ shouldn’t be there. The correct progression of dialogue at the end of Chapter 81 is this:



      Sara: Yes…I’ll lend you my powers for your revenge. Bring destruction to Kaname Kuran, who endangers my life… (cont’d on the next page)

      Sara: (cont’d from the previous page)…and kill that man who took everything away from you…

      Kaname: Disgusting…offering Zero that tainted blood…

      Sara: (cont’d from top of page) Exterminate him.




      Or ‘finish him off’, ‘kill him’, ‘destroy him; whichever English translation you prefer, it doesn’t matter. Clearly the essential meaning of the line is Sara telling Zero to kill Kaname. :'(

      So this scene you are supposedly referring to (http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/81/33 )…

      ...is when Zero drank Sara’s blood, and when Sara requested a ‘payment’ in return. Sara’s deal was that if she let Zero drink her blood, he’d eliminate ‘the one who is out to get me / endangers my life’.

      So on this page, Sara is only reaffirming her terms. We know now, however, that Zero did not uphold his end of the ‘deal’ in Sara’s eyes, because when the time came (when Sara was urging him to try to kill Kaname), Zero turned around and rejected her demands, giving her a sharp retort. So after Zero’s backlash and Sara realized that Zero wasn’t on her side, she took it upon herself to launch an attack on Kaname (as seen in the later half of Chapter 84).

      In this way, Zero has actually tricked Sara. He hasn’t manipulated her (I don’t think he’s capable of doing that to anyone, let alone Yuuki), but he did use her to obtain more pureblood blood. So Zero didn’t lie about this. Sara was the one who instructed him to kill Kaname, and she assumed that he would go through with it for his own vengeful purposes (which, as we’ve seen, he didn’t).


      ----------

      An easy way to determine who is speaking in the panels is to observe the shape of the speech bubbles. If the words are in a square box, it usually indicates a thought or voiceover. If there is a round speech bubble in the frame that does not have a little arrow towards a character (just a round circle or oval) than it is the dialogue of the person the character drawn is conversing with outside of the panel. Like in the bottom panel of the last page of Chapter 81, the speech bubble is completely circular; meaning those words did not come out of Zero’s mouth.

      A character within the frame who is depicted speaking has a speech bubble with a little arrow (triangular shape) in the corner to indicate that they are the one talking, like this:







      I hope that helped Smile





      So…did Zero manipulate Yuuki?


      No.

      In the above spoiler tab, I’ve attempted to justify why I strongly believe Zero was not actually trying to kill Kaname in Chapter 84. But even if that were the case, Zero wouldn’t have manipulated Yuuki. Zero would know that he didn’t have a hope of ever convincing Yuuki that killing Kaname is right. So essentially the only other way Zero could have manipulated her would have to be if Yuuki was unaware that Zero wanted to kill Kaname. This is a ludicrous notion.

      http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/78/38

      Zero (To Yuuki about Kaname): “Every cell. His entire existence. Everything is contaminated.


      http://www.mangareader.net/vampire-knight/78/39

      Zero (To Yuuki): “That guy destroyed my all! My family, Ichiru and me.”


      Does anyone here really think that Yuuki was unaware of how Zero felt about Kaname? She’s always known that Zero hated Kaname from the very moment they met and a 12-year-old Zero tried to stab Kaname on sight; this is not some secret knowledge that Zero had been hiding from her.

      In those pages above, Zero outright told Yuuki how he felt. He was not implying it; he actually said it.

      http://www.mangareader.net/104-2169-22/vampire-knight/chapter-43.html

      And in this page here:
      http://www.mangareader.net/104-2169-41/vampire-knight/chapter-43.html


      …Zero told Yuuki that he wants to annilhilate purebloods (it being implicitly obvious that this includes and especially means Kaname).

      So there can be no doubt that Zero has never tried to hide his disgust towards purebloods and his desire for revenge from Yuuki. There was no way for Zero to manipulate Yuuki into thinking Zero didn’t want to kill Kaname even if he tried. Yuuki would never have fallen for it. Evil or Very Mad

      The term ‘manipulation’ contains distinctively negative connotations, which means that for Zero to have manipulated Yuuki he would have had to act in a devious enough manner as to alter her actions for his own benefit. Yuuki hasn’t changed course at all as a result of Zero’s persuasion. She hasn’t decided to kill Kaname, she hasn’t been influenced into thinking that Zero has never done any wrong, therefore her actions haven’t been altered or ‘manipulated’.

      ---

      I think we all can see that Zero isn't acting with the noblest of intentions right now. Maybe his desire for revenge and to avenge his family is understandable. It's probably not the right thing for him to do, but it's understandable (in my POV). He's confused, angry at being manipulated / used, and, as evidenced by his comment in Chapter 79, filled with remorse over the fact that he couldn't keep his brother Ichiru 'out of all of this'. I imagine that his character would be in a lot of pain, and as a result I think Zero has been acting selfishly. But I definitely don't believe Zero has it in him to be manipulative, which is the key question here. Smile Smile Smile

      ……….


      To summarize my POV:

      Zero hates Kaname.
      Zero still wishes to see Kaname dead.
      Yuuki wants to capture Kaname.
      Yuuki recognized that she and Zero share the same goal.
      Zero and Yuuki teamed up.
      Zero never told Yuuki he didn’t want to kill Kaname.
      Zero has never actively attempted to change Yuuki’s actions.
      Zero is not manipulative.

      Based off of events leading up to and including Chapter 84 (but no further) this is my answer to this topic. Some of you may agree, others may not, but as of right now all of this is how I’m perceiving things. Smile

      Now that Zero and Yuuki have decided to tail Kaname together, things may change in the future... Shocked

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      Re: is zero manipulating?

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        Current date/time is Wed Feb 22, 2017 8:14 am