is zero manipulating?

mariangie wrote: Zero's personality doesn't allow him to manipulate most people . He can lie , but he has no art for making other people follow his suggestions easy . Zero is a piece in the V. K.'s Chess Game . Not an strategist .

Juliet wrote: The word "manipulation" is too heavy for Zero's case, I suppose, because it means that he influenced psychologically Yuuki and controlled her behaviour towards a certain direction> he did not manipulate her, because Yuuki had already her as her own goal to catch Kaname and stop him. So regardless of what Zero would do, she would do her effort also.

Sara clearly manipulated Zero to get her target that was Kaname;

Zero hasn't shown any intention to kill Kaname, as of now

Not necessarily … to influence someone towards a certain direction even if you have to gain something isn’t manipulation IF you are honest and letting the other party know your intentions and your gain from this.

manipulation: shrewd or devious management especially for one’s own advantage.

Sara tried to make Zero kill Kaname saying this was his opportunity to get his revenge . That Kaname was weak .Telling if Zero killed Kaname , this was the only way to get the love of the girl he desired . Here was when Zero noticed if he killed Kaname ; the thing he will in reality gain would be the hate of that same girl . As she loves Kaname . This fact let Zero make a choice he disliked . To not kill Kaname . To drop from his mind to follow the suggestions Sara gave him .

@Zero's lying/deceiving: I think Zeki have always been honest with each other (except for maybe back when Zero didn't tell Yuuki he was turning into a vampire). Zero never told Yuuki what he planned to do with Kaname until 84 when he said he wanted to restrain him. So I don't see his lying to her as plausible. Zero would not gain anything from lying either. He wants to stop Kaname, Yuuki wants to stop Kaname. So there is no need for him to deceive Yuuki. Again, deception is yet another trait uncharacteristic of Zero.

@Yuuki and Zero using each other: I think I would humbly disagree with this. Zeki have a similar goal: capturing Kaname. And hence they are working together to achieve it. It's as simple as that. It has absolutely nothing to do with manipulation or using each other or lying or deceiving. Both Zero and Yuuki know each other's intentions fully well and since their goals coincide, they decided to team up. That's all there is to it, really. Neither is manipulating, deceiving or using the other.

Juliet wrote: I agree but if you dig into this deeper you shall see why the term manipulation is heavy;

The key in order to determine if something is manipulation or not is this factor;

manipulation is a type of social influence that aims to change the perception or behavior of others through underhanded, deceptive, or even abusive tactics.

So did Yuuki changed her perception or behavior? no...

nina wrote:

Juliet wrote: I agree but if you dig into this deeper you shall see why the term manipulation is heavy;

The key in order to determine if something is manipulation or not is this factor;

manipulation is a type of social influence that aims to change the perception or behavior of others through underhanded, deceptive, or even abusive tactics.

So did Yuuki changed her perception or behavior? no...

I beg to differ lol

You underlined only the influence that aims to change perceptions, behaviors etc but not the way that can this be achieved >> through underhanded, deceptive, or even abusive tactics. << there is the manipulation … to the means.

Cuz I’m thinking … to influence someone or the society in order to change certain perceptions and behaviours ain’t bad always … great men and women, leaders in many fields science, politics etc didn’t have changed notions and perceptions of the mankind? Ofc they did … sometimes in a good way bringing developments/progress and sometimes in a bad way as well.

However isn’t the influence that are exerting a priori manipulation but only when this happens through underhanded, deceptive, or even abusive tactics which also can resulted to something bad … a war for example, or racism etc.

So to come back to our case hahaha a possible lie/deception from Zero towards Yuuki wouldn’t change her goal to capture Kaname I agree cuz this is her goal either way thus by lying or not wouldn’t change Yuuki’s goal BUT would she team up with Zero to capture him if she knew that afterwards he would try to kill him? … in other words would she become an accomplice to Kaname’s murder?
Perhaps yes because she could think I can stop him (I mean Zero) but in any case she should know about his intentions before she makes her decision.
And don’t think that even in this case Zero couldn’t kill Kaname … think what IF he would be able to do it … then how Zero's behaviour would be deemed?

Amaran wrote:Maybe Zero changed his mind about killing Kaname because he realized that Kaname wasn't trying to kill him? Or because he found out that Kaname's actions now are to fulfill the Hooded Woman's "wish" so if anything Kaname is just deeply troubled? Or because it would hurt Yuuki? Or because he realized killing Kaname is not going to bring his family back?

There are many possible reasons, all of which are infinitely more probable than Zero lying to manipulate Yuuki. He is not that type of person.

I think it safe to assume that Zero only wants to capture Kaname. Zero said it himself and Yuuki said that she and him have the same objective.

yuuki is still a child.she thinks by her heart not by her brain.anyone can easily manipulate her.sara proved that.i don't see any development of yuuki.

but manga zero is not that good person.i am not being biased with kana chan here,my thoughts on his bad things are lot more worse than zero but he proved that he is not saint.he is filthy too.

i don't understand what he serves in the story except being a hindrance for yume

nina wrote:@Kanamekuranlover

yuuki is still a child.she thinks by her heart not by her brain.anyone can easily manipulate her.sara proved that.i don't see any development of yuuki.

1. Yuuki isn’t a child anymore … she might not be a complete character YET (she wasn’t intended to be one from the start either way in order for us to see gradually her development) but she has matured pretty much and from what I see her actions are not driven from her emotions but rather the opposite … she’s trying to act using her brain. She carries away sometimes yes but for whom? Wasn’t for Kaname? Her feelings for Kaname were disorganizing her and she couldn’t capture him…
Furthermore she isn’t manipulated from Sara … where did you see that? On the contrary she said that she doesn’t trust/like her even the moment she decided to protect her at the academy. She also discovered that she was the root of the tablets.
So whatever she did with Sara it was her decision based to the knowledge she had at the moment and her beliefs hence it wasn’t a product of manipulation.
I could even say that she didn’t fall into Sara’s trap because Sara did try to manipulate her … if you remember Sara approached Yuuki first by intriguing her with Kaname’s “sin” but Yuuki didn’t eat the cheese thus and Sara turned to Zero.

Additionally she has a much better understanding of what is happening around her compared with the past.
But we must judge her based on what she knows and not based on what WE know from the plot. The same goes for all the characters ofc.

but manga zero is not that good person.i am not being biased with kana chan here,my thoughts on his bad things are lot more worse than zero but he proved that he is not saint.he is filthy too.

2. Zero isn’t filthy or a bad person and neither Kaname.

We as readers should be able to distance ourselves from the characters’ emotions or their outbursts if not for any other reason just because WE know much more aspects of the plot from what the characters know in most cases (well minus Kaname who knows more than we do lol)

Personally I find Zero justified to want to kill Kaname and for characterizing him filthy simply because Zero doesn’t know the whole truth. And Kaname didn’t exactly enlighten Zero … on the contrary.
On the other hand this doesn’t apply for the readers though cuz for them are provided more info.

Even though I do believe that he acts emotionally and that he shouldn’t have put faith on Sara’s words however his hate now is more justified than in the 1st arc where I was finding his wish to kill Kaname illogical.
My objection was about his timing and for siding with Sara not for wanting to kill Kaname since he believes that he destroyed his family.

Therefore even if he lied to Yuuki about his intentions still this doesn’t deem him as manipulating or bad person overall not to mention filthy.

In VK most of the characters are entering in the grey zone from time to time and IMO this is what is making them more realistic and humanish … not filthy, villains etc but realistic.
The line between the villains/bad ones and the rest of them is pretty clear IMO and certainly Zero doesn’t belong in this category.
We should be able to distinguish a bad action or judgment from a character; from characterizing him/her overall by it.

i don't understand what he serves in the story except being a hindrance for yume

And when did he become a hindrance for Yume???
From what I see the hindrance for Yume is ONLY Kaname in this second arc.

However, I agree that his role in the 2nd arc isn’t so important and neither his contribution on the plot.
But I’m expecting to see him justifying his role as one of the three keys for co-existence … VK isn’t over yet.

juliet wrote:

@Zero's lying/deceiving: I think Zeki have always been honest with each other (except for maybe back when Zero didn't tell Yuuki he was turning into a vampire). Zero never told Yuuki what he planned to do with Kaname until 84 when he said he wanted to restrain him. So I don't see his lying to her as plausible. Zero would not gain anything from lying either. He wants to stop Kaname, Yuuki wants to stop Kaname. So there is no need for him to deceive Yuuki. Again, deception is yet another trait uncharacteristic of Zero.

@Yuuki and Zero using each other: I think I would humbly disagree with this. Zeki have a similar goal: capturing Kaname. And hence they are working together to achieve it. It's as simple as that. It has absolutely nothing to do with manipulation or using each other or lying or deceiving. Both Zero and Yuuki know each other's intentions fully well and since their goals coincide, they decided to team up. That's all there is to it, really. Neither is manipulating, deceiving or using the other.

Yuuki and Zero having the same goal; but didn't Zero wanted to kill kaname? what was all this fight about?

I do not know about the last chapter when he says to Yuuki "Lets go get him", because he may saw that if he keeps trying to kill Kaname, Kaname shall never surrender to him so perhaps he let that go of that idea and placed his hopes to Yuuki to get him, I am not sure what he had intended to do afterwards...

when Kaname says; I won't be killed by you and Zero that's enough, doesn't it show that Zero came to the scene with more lethal intentions? and even Ruka interferes so that this fight won't turn fatal for any side?

shizza24 wrote:Zero never stated he wanted to kill Kaname after discovering his involvement in his tragedy. That is because he held back his hatred for the sake of Yuuki's happiness. We could have argued that he might have wanted to kill Kaname since Zero never stated what exactly he wanted to do with Kaname (kill him or restrain him) but 84 made it clear that he wanted to restrain him.

@Yuuki and Zero using each other: I think I would humbly disagree with this. Zeki have a similar goal: capturing Kaname. And hence they are working together to achieve it. It's as simple as that. It has absolutely nothing to do with manipulation or using each other or lying or deceiving. Both Zero and Yuuki know each other's intentions fully well and since their goals coincide, they decided to team up. That's all there is to it, really. Neither is manipulating, deceiving or using the other.

As to the previous fight (ch. 82), we don't know for sure whether Zero wanted to kill Kaname. Plus, Kaname was the one who invaded the HA, so that gave Zero a justified reason to attack, because he had to defend the place.

Last chapter Zero said "we have to stop that guy" so he never explicitly stated a desire to kill him. And it doesn't matter even IF Zero wants to kill him, that has nothing to do with the topic of this thread: manipulating Yuuki, a claim that is invalid.

bloodredhead wrote:Thing is now Zero has had time to calm and collect himself. He's got a rein on his emotions after he parted from Yuuki when she went after Kaname. He's now thinking with his head more.

Zero is a professional hunter, he can't let his emotions rule his job or responsibility and he know's this so I feel this is another reason he changed his standpoint.

Amaran wrote:

Zero does know about Kaname's past.
http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-82-page-15.html
And about his connection to the Hooded woman.
http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-83-page-11.html
http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-83-page-12.html
He's listening the entire time.

nina wrote:

Juliet wrote:

manipulation is a type of social influence that aims to change the perception or behavior of others through underhanded, deceptive, or even abusive tactics.

You underlined only the influence that aims to change perceptions, behaviors etc but not the way that can this be achieved >> through underhanded, deceptive, or even abusive tactics. << there is the manipulation … to the means.

Cuz I’m thinking … to influence someone or the society in order to change certain perceptions and behaviours ain’t bad always … great men and women, leaders in many fields science, politics etc didn’t have changed notions and perceptions of the mankind? Ofc they did … sometimes in a good way bringing developments/progress and sometimes in a bad way as well.

Social influence is generally perceived to be harmless when it respects the right of the influenced to accept or reject and is not unduly coercive. Depending on the context and motivations, social influence may constitute underhanded manipulation.

So to come back to our case hahaha a possible lie/deception from Zero towards Yuuki wouldn’t change her goal to capture Kaname I agree cuz this is her goal either way thus by lying or not wouldn’t change Yuuki’s goal BUT would she team up with Zero to capture him if she knew that afterwards he would try to kill him? … in other words would she become an accomplice to Kaname’s murder?

Perhaps yes because she could think I can stop him (I mean Zero) but in any case she should know about his intentions before she makes her decision.
And don’t think that even in this case Zero couldn’t kill Kaname … think what IF he would be able to do it … then how Zero's behaviour would be deemed?

shizza24 wrote:

As to the previous fight (ch. 82), we don't know for sure whether Zero wanted to kill Kaname. Plus, Kaname was the one who invaded the HA, so that gave Zero a justified reason to attack, because he had to defend the place.

Last chapter Zero said "we have to stop that guy" so he never explicitly stated a desire to kill him. And it doesn't matter even IF Zero wants to kill him, that has nothing to do with the topic of this thread: manipulating Yuuki, a claim that is invalid.

shizza24 wrote:

juliet wrote:

@Zero's lying/deceiving: I think Zeki have always been honest with each other (except for maybe back when Zero didn't tell Yuuki he was turning into a vampire). Zero never told Yuuki what he planned to do with Kaname until 84 when he said he wanted to restrain him. So I don't see his lying to her as plausible. Zero would not gain anything from lying either. He wants to stop Kaname, Yuuki wants to stop Kaname. So there is no need for him to deceive Yuuki. Again, deception is yet another trait uncharacteristic of Zero.

@Yuuki and Zero using each other: I think I would humbly disagree with this. Zeki have a similar goal: capturing Kaname. And hence they are working together to achieve it. It's as simple as that. It has absolutely nothing to do with manipulation or using each other or lying or deceiving. Both Zero and Yuuki know each other's intentions fully well and since their goals coincide, they decided to team up. That's all there is to it, really. Neither is manipulating, deceiving or using the other.

Yuuki and Zero having the same goal; but didn't Zero wanted to kill kaname? what was all this fight about?

I do not know about the last chapter when he says to Yuuki "Lets go get him", because he may saw that if he keeps trying to kill Kaname, Kaname shall never surrender to him so perhaps he let that go of that idea and placed his hopes to Yuuki to get him, I am not sure what he had intended to do afterwards...

when Kaname says; I won't be killed by you and Zero that's enough, doesn't it show that Zero came to the scene with more lethal intentions? and even Ruka interferes so that this fight won't turn fatal for any side?

As to the previous fight (ch. 82), we don't know for sure whether Zero wanted to kill Kaname. Plus, Kaname was the one who invaded the HA, so that gave Zero a justified reason to attack, because he had to defend the place.

Last chapter Zero said "we have to stop that guy" so he never explicitly stated a desire to kill him. And it doesn't matter even IF Zero wants to kill him, that has nothing to do with the topic of this thread: manipulating Yuuki, a claim that is invalid.

Shoujo-Zo wrote: both men were in a fight to the death

Zero: He didn’t want to kill me.
Page 24
Zero: He just wanted to manipulate me with that arrogant pureblood controlling power. The trap on the door is still active.

I know, Kaname's the one who ran away after killing Lord Aidou, makring him as a dangerous vampire... and what does he do? He comes back and abuses the hunters to literally BREAK IN to the association! Zero, being the next in line to be head of the association of course has the right to be the one to defend it with all he's got.

juliet wrote:

I know, Kaname's the one who ran away after killing Lord Aidou, makring him as a dangerous vampire... and what does he do? He comes back and abuses the hunters to literally BREAK IN to the association! Zero, being the next in line to be head of the association of course has the right to be the one to defend it with all he's got.

He better defend it now that he let Sara inside and brought all this damage to the hunters' side, because if it hadn't been for Zero and his attempt to get a personal revenge out of Kaname, Sara would NOT be in the HA. She used Zero's weakness to gain entrance to the hunters so that they can shield her>

Zero knew that Kaname was after her and in this case Kaname does not do anything more than what he had been asked to do:

Aido dono had asked him to stop Sara.

Cross wish was also for Kaname to interfere with Sara; -Now i have volume 14..

Kaien says: "We signed a treaty with Kaname, because we recognized him as the head of the vampires so I don't want him to overlook Sara's actions.."

So the hunters better decide what they want; Zero should also decide what he wants; certain chapters now he speaks of revenge, he tries to Kill Kaname (that's certain), then chews his word when it comes to Yuuki;

perhaps its a matter of translation, i am reserved, but he brought Sara inside; he got her blood, ZERO is responsible for the attack there and he has his own responsibility > No Sara there> NO HA attack.

Now from what is it that he is trying to protect the HA from? from the "I want to get my revenge" or from "Why doesn't he stop Sara?" or from "Let the purebloods kill themselves", there has to be some logic in his attitude...

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The Great Debate
Was Zero trying to kill Kaname in Chapter 84?

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